[Buddha-l] Non attached & mindful culinary triumphalism?

[JKirkpatrick]

Thanks, Artur, for all this additional.
Joanna
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Dear Joanna, Lance and Dan,

What hampers this discussion is scantiness of realistic information on the social structure in the times of the Buddha (whatever way we date him), Fick's (clearly outdated) work notwithstanding.

Social marginalization is definitely a byproduct of deforestation and detribalization, the two processes conditioning/accompanying the emergence of the new political and economic order in Northern India.
[On that, sufficiently, Romila Thapar and, lately, Greg Bailey & Ian Mabbett.]

Pali texts, to the extent that I am familiar with them, don't seem to show any interest in either of the two. Their silence re the effects of marginalization (not of the śudras, their social position was only relatively marginal) isn't surprising, the real target for Buddhist missionary activities being urbanized and urbanizing segments of the society. [On that Schopen.]

The other factors operating behind this marked lack of interest must have been the linguistic-cultural differences. Who were those ex-tribals deprived in the name of progress of their land and their sources of livelihood?  Were they Dravidians? Austro-Asiatics? What type of matrimonial exchange they were practicing? Inheritance rules?

The texts kind of concentrate on their poverty, seemingly as the effect of their bad karma, not on their being the victims of civilizational violence. Showing them as inferior beings, of the Untermensch type. A quote from Bailey & Mabbet's book (p. 42-43, a fragment repeated nearly verbatim in five texts):

"There are degraded families: a candala family, a family of hunters, of bamboo workers, of chariot makers and of refuse removers. A person is born in such a family which is poor, one in which food, drink and possessions are few, in which the lifestyle is difficult, in which animal fodder and covering are gained with difficulty. And he is of poor complexion, ugly, dwarf-like, frequently sick, or else he is blind, deformed, or lame or a cripple; nor does he possess food, drink, clothing, vehicle, garlands, scents and ointment, nor a bed, a dwelling and a lamp plus things to light it with".

But  the text continues:
<<So kāyena duccaritaṃ carati vācāya duccaritaṃ carati manasā duccaritaṃ carati. So kāyena duccaritaṃ caritvā vācāya duccaritaṃ caritvā manasā duccaritaṃ  caritvā kāyassa bhedā parammaraṇā apāyaṃ duggatiṃ vinipātaṃ nirayaṃ upapajjati.>>

Telling the listeners, that such people transgress (against the accepted norms) - by their way of thinking, speaking and acting, and that is why they deserve hell. (or Hina-Hell, if I may borrow your expression, Joanna).

What I like in this fragment, is that this standard list of occupations (caṇḍāla nesāda veṇa rathakāra pukkusa) is used so many times as part of the argument against brahmanic haughtiness, and so - against inequality. Comparison sounds much better and is more effective if we bring in extreme elements. But is, otherways, nearly empty, one part of it being well known, the other being a bunch of stereotypes.

Empty, if not for the standard, although oblique, mention of pigs (pig-through, sūkaradoṇi). Hunter, Bamboo-worker, or Refuse-remover with their pigs and the lack of garlands, scents, ointments - as the mark of their not belonging among civilized people. Ultimately confirmed by their inability (or is it just contempt?) to conform to widely accepted, civilized norms.

And – getting what was coming to them.

A brahman friend of mine (M.A. in Hindi Literature), when asked about the untouchable Chamars living (in numerical majority) in his ancestral village, admitted he knew nothing of them, except that they had repulsive habits and no religious life whatsoever, yes some “jantar-mantar”. I do find similar attitude in the Pali texts.

Is the list of physical marks (enumerated as characteristic for people like those candalas, nesadas, venas and pukkusas) not in part similar to the list of marks excluding one from being accepted into the sangha?

Again from rainy Warsaw,

Artur

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