[Buddha-l] karma and consequences

[Vicente Gonzalez]

Robert wrote:


RE>  We have no way of telling  through experience whether this is the
RE> case, as some lies seem to  have a bad effect, but others do
RE> not.?The world is also full  of?good people dying of cancer, and
RE> nasty dictators living in  happy retirement, which also suggest
RE> counter-examples. The  acceptance of karma, then, whether or not
RE> it incorporates rebirth,  is a faith response to a dogmatic
RE> teaching. It should not be  confused with an appreciation of the
RE> effects of our mental states  and our actions such as can
RE> be?directly experienced, and developed through meditation practice.

there is a confusion in your description. We are not accepting
kamma doctrine as a way to validate our actual scientific position in
the perceived world. With kamma we are accepting a valid way to
explain the mind. Having accepting this method to polish the mind,
then rebirth and other things becomes logical and unavoidable.

In the same way that we cannot experience atoms, protons or Relativity
theory but we accept these things because the inherent logics inside a
position to understand the world. Here, also we are believing in such
things because the enlightened states of some gurus (be called
Einstein or whatever) not because our own experience.

In the Kukkuravatika Sutta Buddha classifies kamma into four groups:

   1. dark with a dark result;
   2. bright with a bright result;
   3. dark and bright with a dark and bright result;
   4. neither dark nor bright with a neither dark nor bright result.

the kamma of some action cannot be explained using just our memory
of previous actions of body, because kamma involves thought, body
and speech actions. We don't have memory of all this constant activity
which surpass our understanding and the History of our -self.

The belief in kamma must be used in the same way that our belief in
the atoms existence; just because it can explain the solid, liquid and
gas states, and therefore our perceived world. But we cannot
experience atoms neither we can find the first cause of  "this
drop" of water; because the past History of the atoms in this drop
surpass our understanding. The atomic panorama is just a logical
belief to give us a satisfactory position to explain our reality. And
the same happens with kamma regarding "this mind".

The claim of rebirth as a "blind faith" follows a similar logics of
Creationists. In any time there is people believing the things of this
Reality appears by chance, some God, etc... The efforts of Buddha,
Hume and many others cannot fructify in such type of mind. Probably
for this reason there are other religions and explanations; to serve
the progress of these minds until having better circumstances or a
next life.


best regards,