[Buddha-l] Re: there he goes again (samharris)

[L.S. Cousins]

Vicente,

>LSC> Those who reach the fourth formless attainment are said to be 'two
>LSC> ways liberated'; so there must be some similarity with enlightenment.
>LSC> But no-one ever says that actual awakening occurs in jhaana. Rather
>LSC> it can occur at any time and in any place.
>
>well, I understand that in classic Theravada, without a previous
>practice of formal jhana meditation, such thing it's considered very
>rare or near impossible. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

My understanding is that for the early texts of the old Pali and 
Sanskrit Canons we have no evidence that arahatship or never-return 
is conceived of as arising without prior jhaana practice.

>Then Do you think in the following 200 hundred years the Sangha could
>change the understanding of the monk's practice and creating that
>division?.

Thart's possible, but I suppose that there was a lot of variety from 
the beginning.

>LSC> Memorizing and studying would be the beginning. The kind of thing
>LSC> that Buddhadaasa was doing in the dhamma talk you quote below would
>LSC> be a much more advanced level. I never met Buddhadaasa, but he seems
>LSC> to have been a monk experienced in both aspects: jhaana and
>LSC> dhammayoga.
>
>I think what you are explaining here it's really in the point.
>Just I wonder that maybe it is not an higher level but just a
>different thing.

A monk like Buddhadaasa would have begun with a lot of memorizing and studying.

>Bikkhu Bodhi says those Dhammayoga monks refers to preachers
>(dhamma-kathika). While the meditators refers those who have attained
>jhanas. Therefore, Dhamma monks are "who penetrate the deep meaning of
>the khandas (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas (sense
>fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta (i.e the citta that
>experiences nibbana) together with vipassana panna. But here it should
>be panna which penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level
>of asking questions and learning"

Bhikkhu Bodhi is here presenting Buddhaghosa's understanding of the 
discourse in question. Note in particular the last sentence: 'But 
here" i.e. in this discourse.

Lance Cousins