[Buddha-l] Re: there he goes again (samharris)

[Vicente Gonzalez]

L.S. Cousins wrote:

LSC> Those who reach the fourth formless attainment are said to be 'two
LSC> ways liberated'; so there must be some similarity with enlightenment. 
LSC> But no-one ever says that actual awakening occurs in jhaana. Rather 
LSC> it can occur at any time and in any place.

well, I understand that in classic Theravada, without a previous
practice of formal jhana meditation, such thing it's considered very
rare or near impossible. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

LSC> To put it another way, the path has three aspects: siila, samaadhi
LSC> and paññaa. The first concerns what we do, the second what we are and 
LSC> the third how we understand. So precepts are part of the task of 
LSC> improving our actions, concentration i.e. samaadhi and jhaana is the 
LSC> way in which we work on improving our mental state and wisdom is to 
LSC> make our manner of knowing more profound.

yes


LSC> Remember that I think that the discourse we are discussing is from a
LSC> time a century or two after the Buddha. It is not attributed to the 
LSC> Buddha.

Then Do you think in the following 200 hundred years the Sangha could
change the understanding of the monk's practice and creating that
division?. 

LSC> Memorizing and studying would be the beginning. The kind of thing
LSC> that Buddhadaasa was doing in the dhamma talk you quote below would 
LSC> be a much more advanced level. I never met Buddhadaasa, but he seems 
LSC> to have been a monk experienced in both aspects: jhaana and 
LSC> dhammayoga.

I think what you are explaining here it's really in the point.
Just I wonder that maybe it is not an higher level but just a
different thing.

Bikkhu Bodhi says those Dhammayoga monks refers to preachers
(dhamma-kathika). While the meditators refers those who have attained 
jhanas. Therefore, Dhamma monks are "who penetrate the deep meaning of
the khandas (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas (sense
fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta (i.e the citta that
experiences nibbana) together with vipassana panna. But here it should
be panna which penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level
of asking questions and learning"

However, what Buddhadasa explain sounds a bit different. And other
modern masters had a similar view, in example Ajahn Chah: 

'Making the postures even' refers to the mind, nothing else. It
means making the mind bright and clear so that wisdom arises, so that
there is knowledge of whatever is happening in all postures and
situations. Whatever the posture, you know phenomena and states of
mind for what they are, meaning that they are impermanent,
unsatisfactory, and not your self. The mind remains established in
this awareness at all times and in all postures.'

For Buddhadasa and Chah, such contemplation seems to be not in some
preliminary level when they are talking about realizing nibanna in
a practice of awakening.

Reading these thoughts on this contemplation, I wonder about the
final words of Bikkhu Bodhi: "But here it should be panna which
penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level of asking
questions and learning".
I ignore if panna can have a deepest connotation. I understand panna
can be related with a deep wisdom in the sense of an unerring
intuition in the truth but it is not enough. Maybe I'm wrong.


LSC> What he says about emptiness seems quite normal Theravaada teaching to me.

your privilege. Non-scholar people we are condemned to feel surprise
in front common things.


LSC> So Dhammapaala understands that he was unable to settle to his
LSC> meditation and became frustrated with it. This produced a kind of 
LSC> nibbidaa, similar to the early stage of strong insight - a kind of 
LSC> rejection of mind and body. So he turned towards suicide, but further 
LSC> stimulated by the imminence of death as he stood on the brink, 
LSC> insight arose i.e. the more balanced, advanced stage of insight which 
LSC> leads to awakening.
LSC> Nothing here says anything about whether he had previously practised
LSC> jhaana, but I would assume he had. As most meditators discover, there 
LSC> is nothing more frustrating than going to an ideal environment for 
LSC> meditation and finding it impossible to still the chimpanzee mind in 
LSC> the way you have done on some previous occasion.

yes, I never put my chimpanzee into a jacuzzi because it doesn't work.
It is a personal conclusion, no more.

In my humble understanding of common reader, I would assume that when
he was in the brink, it was the vision of the author of the crime, his
own chimpanzee mind impossible to still, what drive to him to
enlightenment. Before that moment he had been deceiving himself with 
another mind which still was not here. 


best regards,