[Buddha-l] Re: H.H. The Dalai Lama vs Geshe Michael Roach

[Nichts]

Interesting that you mention Trungpa Rinpoche in this context. Trungpa 
was one of a few teachers who did not hide anything. He had literally 
no private life. If you really want, you can find out everything about 
him without taking rescue in fishy second hand knowledge. He was 
married, had children and numerous affairs with female students. You 
could even call this a part of his teaching style. I am not aware of 
one woman who came out with complaints of abuse. I personally know 
women who had relations with Trungpa.

In Tibetan Buddhism there is only one lineage who takes the celibacy 
vow seriously. That are the Gelugpas. The stories that leak out of that 
scene regarding breaking this vow have the same flavor like the ones 
leaking out of the Catholic Church; there is a lot of guilt and shock 
and suppression. Even Michael Roach fits not completely in this 
picture. His Vajrayogini 3 year retreat and his attitude of crazy yogi 
is not really Gelugpa style.
In the other lineages of Tibetan Buddhism there was allways a tradition 
of practicing laypeople and married lamas (although "married lamas" has 
a western conotation - lamas with consorts would be more exact) quite 
flexible intermingled with the monks.  Sex is happening there, whether 
open or as an open secret. Complaints of abuse by western students have 
become more and more frequent in the recent years out of this scene. 
This compaints have an other quality than the ones among the Gelugpas. 
They are more a clash of cultures and raise the question if certain 
practices of Vajrayana are possible in the context of western 
civilisation. Since Tibetan Buddhism and the hippies met, there was the 
phenomenom of "dharma-groupies". Women who wanted full relations with 
tibetan lamas and who got them and mostly found out that tibetan 
culture is very much a macho culture where the concept of romantic love 
is  unknown (although there are very few exeptions, like for instance 
Trungpa).  Some of this women are now really upset.

Best,
Thomas Fink

Am 20.08.2006 um 04:47 schrieb Piya Tan:

> Friends in Dharma,
>
>  There are a number of instructive papers on this matter, esp
>
>  Katy Butler, "Encountering the shadow in Buddhist America"
>  in Meeting the Shadows, ed Jeremiah Abrams & Connie Zweig, 1991.
>
>  Looks like the ghosts of Chogyam Trungpa and co are still around in 
> the antarabhava occasionally incarnating in our midst.
>
>  It would also be interesting to see what happens to the WBO/FWBO when 
> Sangharakshita dies. It would be likely that the scholars who are 
> current Orders Members would be able to more freely write 
> authoritatively about cults, though I think those days are somewhat 
> over for the F/WBO since many of the members are beginning to think 
> for themselves and are connecting up with mainstream Buddhism, esp the 
> forest monks. Such first hand writings will surely prove beneficial in 
> the study of the psychology of religion.
>
>  There was a time when I thought Sangharakshita was right about 
> needing a new approach (or "new society") in the West and westernized 
> communities. When Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Sumedho arrived in Britain 
> (this is now history), I think the Dharma sun has risen and is shining 
> again.  The old "iron horse" of Padmasambhava of Orgyen badly needs a 
> full overhaul.
>
>  The main point is whether those who take to the monastic robes can 
> keep to those ancient rules, bending them if necessary, but never 
> breaking them. Ajahn Jagaro, abbot of the Perth monastery before Ajahn 
> Brahmavamso, was honorable enough to leave the Order to marry a 
> wonderful Thai lady who nursed him when he was ill.
>
>  If we are to believe the Suttas, the likes of Roach who still delight 
> in sense-pleasures despite his "training," shows that he has not known 
> any pleasure higher than sense-pleasure. Surely someone who has tasted 
> dhyana or higher would let go of lesser pleasures that bring such high 
> costs--and all that public laundry.
>
>  One of the reasons we have to keep the precepts is out of compassion 
> for the suffering others who are seeking the way, and so that those 
> approaching it do not lose faith. Otherwise the shadow is darkest 
> where the light seems brightest, and we are blinded by our own light.
>
>  Well, at least these "monastics" are not molesting thousands of 
> little children in the shadows of Pope Alexander "Medici".
>
>  May we grow as lotuses in the mud heading for the sunshine.
>
>  Piya Tan
>
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