[Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 49, Issue 39 Re: Richard Nance
Robert Leverant
roblev at sonic.net
Mon Mar 30 16:26:33 MDT 2009
Richard,
Until now, I took Hillman's scholarship as impeccable. After reading your
comment, I went back and noticed what you pointed out: that Hillman didn't
footnote the source of this letter. Perhaps, he knew that Goullart was B.S.
and yet had the audacity to quote the letter because it validated his
metaphor and thesis.
When I first read the letter, it didn't resonate because in all my 45 years
of doing spiritual practice, much of it in Buddhism, I'd never seen such
writing on soul and such rich metaphors and images; worthy of Western
poetry. This didn't seem congruent with my experience and knowledge base,
but I went to sleep and ignored my rumblings in the bones, because it was
attributed to H.H. Dalai Lama, who in my eyes is impeccable. So thank you
for holding this mirror for me to see my blind spots and glossing over my
disbelief that something was wrong; that this language and metaphors didn't
feel right.
That said, I still think the metaphor Peaks (Spirit) and Vales (Soul) is a
good one and important for those drawn to the "spiritual" path to reflect
on; to be aware of and what they are sacrificing in terms of being human.
Kennard Lipman's story is about this.
A realized being is both Peak and Vale. I've had the good fortune to be
close to a couple of such beings with titles like H.E. They were the real
deal; never leaving the host position of equinimity and compassion and love
and wisdom and emptiness no matter what came their way. Evidently,
Kyabjé Drubwang Pema Norbu Rinpoche was in this mold. Realized.
Thanks again.
Robert
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> 1. Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters Parinirvana] (jkirk)
> 2. Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters Parinirvana]
> (Dan Lusthaus)
> 3. Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters Parinirvana] (jkirk)
> 4. Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters Parinirvana]
> (Dan Lusthaus)
> 5. Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters Parinirvana] (jkirk)
> 6. Subject: Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters>
> Parinirvana] (Robert Leverant)
> 7. Re: Subject: Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters>
> Parinirvana] (Richard Nance)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 13:42:37 -0600
> From: "jkirk" <jkirk at spro.net>
> Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters
> Parinirvana]
> To: "'Buddhist discussion forum'" <buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com>
> Message-ID: <008D74D8B723452FB50664573B1C17F1 at OPTIPLEX>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>> Have I got too cynical?
>
> A bit - Of course the language seems way over the top to a
> western reader. Tibetan uses a lot of honorific terms which don't
> translate well into modern English ~ particularly when Tibetans
> think they need to translate them into the sort of language they
> are exposed to through satellite TV.......................
> - Chris
> =================
>
> Speculating about the elaborate social rituals, could these
> codes have been molded by and under elite Chinese (or possible
> older, Eurasian) influences, developing royal courts of lamas, as
> it were, modeled after ancient imperial court styles and social
> rituals?
> Has anyone written about the history of these?
>
> Joanna
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 20:13:31 -0500
> From: "Dan Lusthaus" <vasubandhu at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters
> Parinirvana]
> To: "Buddhist discussion forum" <buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com>
> Message-ID: <000e01c9b0d4$bd89cd90$2101a8c0 at Dan>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>> Speculating about the elaborate social rituals, could these
>> codes have been molded by and under elite Chinese (or possible
>> older, Eurasian) influences, ...?
>
> Joanna,
> Actually this reminded me more of Jaina practices than anything Chinese. In
> recent decades there have been several very accomplished Jaina women who,
> following a long Jain tradition, die by basically starving to death, i.e.,
> entering meditation and not moving until dead (creating no new karma that
> would incur further samsaric consequences). Only very few people are given
> dispensation for this type of demise, i.e., are considered sufficiently
> spiritually accomplished to engage in this. This is also attended by the
> same sort of attention and fanfare the Tibetan announcement gave, only by
> the Jaina community. It is interesting that, at least in the late 20th c,
> the only Jains considered of sufficiently superior accomplishment to receive
> dispensation to go out this way have been women.
>
> Dan
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:41:44 -0600
> From: "jkirk" <jkirk at spro.net>
> Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters
> Parinirvana]
> To: "'Buddhist discussion forum'" <buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com>
> Message-ID: <3FDCB9D58ADE467D9A9AA2FA38CBCC65 at OPTIPLEX>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>> Speculating about the elaborate social rituals, could these
> codes
>> have been molded by and under elite Chinese (or possible older,
>
>> Eurasian) influences, ...?
>
> Joanna,
> Actually this reminded me more of Jaina practices than anything
> Chinese. In recent decades there have been several very
> accomplished Jaina women who, following a long Jain tradition,
> die by basically starving to death, i.e., entering meditation and
> not moving until dead (creating no new karma that would incur
> further samsaric consequences). Only very few people are given
> dispensation for this type of demise, i.e., are considered
> sufficiently spiritually accomplished to engage in this. This is
> also attended by the same sort of attention and fanfare the
> Tibetan announcement gave, only by the Jaina community. It is
> interesting that, at least in the late 20th c, the only Jains
> considered of sufficiently superior accomplishment to receive
> dispensation to go out this way have been women.
>
> Dan
> --------
> Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was referring to the
> overall social rituals, hierarchies, elaborate robes, courts, and
> so forth of Tibetan religious establishments in general, --not to
> the Rinpoche's demise.
> (Some Hindu yogis are also known to have chosen this method of
> dying while in samadhi.)
> Joanna
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:05:35 -0500
> From: "Dan Lusthaus" <vasubandhu at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters
> Parinirvana]
> To: "Buddhist discussion forum" <buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com>
> Message-ID: <004401c9b0dc$040b1a60$2101a8c0 at Dan>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>> Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was referring to the
>> overall social rituals, hierarchies, elaborate robes, courts, and
>> so forth of Tibetan religious establishments in general, --not to
>> the Rinpoche's demise.
>> Joanna
>
>
> In that case, take a look at Johan Elverskog's _Our Great Qing: The Mongols,
> Buddhism and the State in Late Imperial China_ (U Hawaii, 2006). He does a
> nice job of showing how, from the late Ming through the Qing (ca. 16th-20th
> centuries), the Chines court, playing on affinities between Manchus and
> Mongolians, on the one hand, and Tibet and Mongols on the other, forged
> cakravartin myths, making Mongolia part of "our great Qing" via Tibetan
> mediation. The Emperor of China gets viewed as the great Cakravartin
> (Wheel-turning Ruler), to whom the Mongols, Tibetans, Manchurians, etc., are
> followers and fellow exponents of the Buddhist way. It is cosmological
> sovereignty united by a shared Buddhist myth (usurping Genghis and Kublai
> Khan as well by making them prototypical Mongolian Buddhists, the original
> Cakravartins who have passed their mantle to the Chinese (Manchurian)
> Emperor, inventing increasingly elaborate and inaccurate "conversion"
> stories of the Mongols to Buddhism, etc., placing them not only under
> Tibetan aegis, but specifically Gelugpa, which also meant Chinese
> sovereignty). The Mongolians themselves take over these myths and construct
> identities from them, using Tibeto-Indic sources to "find" themselves as
> Buddhists centuries earlier than they were, and constructing similar
> identities out of Chinese materials. The social, political, ritual, etc.
> hierarchies are all forged by these (Gelugpa arises during the Ming dynasty
> and reaches full ascendancy with the advent of the Qing).
>
> Dan
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:28:03 -0600
> From: "jkirk" <jkirk at spro.net>
> Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters
> Parinirvana]
> To: "'Buddhist discussion forum'" <buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com>
> Message-ID: <AEEC473ACCA941E6B0AE0DDA7C09E3A9 at OPTIPLEX>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Sounds like a book to read-------thanks for the cit.
> Joanna
> ========
>
> In that case, take a look at Johan Elverskog's _Our Great Qing:
> The Mongols, Buddhism and the State in Late Imperial China_ (U
> Hawaii, 2006). He does a nice job of showing how, from the late
> Ming through the Qing (ca. 16th-20th centuries), the Chines
> court, playing on affinities between Manchus and Mongolians, on
> the one hand, and Tibet and Mongols on the other, forged
> cakravartin myths, making Mongolia part of "our great Qing" via
> Tibetan mediation. The Emperor of China gets viewed as the great
> Cakravartin (Wheel-turning Ruler), to whom the Mongols, Tibetans,
> Manchurians, etc., are followers and fellow exponents of the
> Buddhist way. It is cosmological sovereignty united by a shared
> Buddhist myth (usurping Genghis and Kublai Khan as well by making
> them prototypical Mongolian Buddhists, the original Cakravartins
> who have passed their mantle to the Chinese (Manchurian) Emperor,
> inventing increasingly elaborate and inaccurate "conversion"
> stories of the Mongols to Buddhism, etc., placing them not only
> under Tibetan aegis, but specifically Gelugpa, which also meant
> Chinese sovereignty). The Mongolians themselves take over these
> myths and construct identities from them, using Tibeto-Indic
> sources to "find" themselves as Buddhists centuries earlier than
> they were, and constructing similar identities out of Chinese
> materials. The social, political, ritual, etc.
> hierarchies are all forged by these (Gelugpa arises during the
> Ming dynasty and reaches full ascendancy with the advent of the
> Qing).
>
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 13:52:30 -0700
> From: Robert Leverant <roblev at sonic.net>
> Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche
> Enters> Parinirvana]
> To: <buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com>
> Message-ID: <C5F52D9E.893E%roblev at sonic.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> This is a profound and important subject that Jayarava has opened up. His
> response is from the soul view; the human view. The formal announcements
> and the ceremonies represent the spirit view -- realized in the stage of
> Thugdam by H.H. Pema Norbu Rinpoche; which is a goal for Vajrayana
> practioners of Tibetan Buddhism.
>
> In the Western World, the split between soul and spirit was formalized in
> 869 A.D. In Constantinople at the Council of the Principals of the Holy
> Catholic Church & earlier in Nicea in 787.
>
> In an overview: in these meetings there was a separation made between the
> two through which images were deemed acceptable to the Church Fathers.
>
> Surprisingly, in Tibetan Buddhism there is the same separation/distinction
> made between Spirit (Peaks) & Soul (Vales).
>
> "Soul is at home in the deep, shaded valleys. ... Spirit is land of high,
> white peaks, and glittering jewel like lakes and flowers. ...But the
> creative soul craves spirit. Out of the jungles of the lamaserary, the most
> beautiful monks one day bid farewell to their comrades and go to make the
> solitary journey toward the peaks, to mate with the cosmos . ..." (H. H. the
> Dalai Lama in a letter to Peter Goullart... Quoted in an essay by James
> Hillman Peaks & Values, Puer Papers, Spring Publications, 1979.
>
> For those of you who are interested in this very important subject of being
> human & soulful vs. divine/realized and the split between the two inside
> each of us and the collective, read this reflective and scholarly essay by
> Hillman presented to a conference on Eastern & Western psychologies in 1979.
>
> This conflict is epitomized and enacted in the journey of Kennard Lipman,
> who, after thirty years of devotion to the practice of Tibetan Buddhism,
> found his spiritual home in the religion of his ancestors. Lipman was an
> accomplished Dzogchen practioner and translator and commentator of texts
> including one by Longchenpa. Having scaled the peaks (spirit), he found
> himself not fed, and returned to the vales (soul) and became a Rabbi.
> http://www.reformjudaismmag.net/03summer/buddhist.shtml
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:52:08 -0400
> From: Richard Nance <richard.nance at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Subject: Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche
> Enters> Parinirvana]
> To: Buddhist discussion forum <buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com>
> Message-ID:
> <cfae24770903301052p7dbcd4b3qf2006c3e5d415ad3 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Robert Leverant cited the following:
>
>> "Soul is at home in the deep, shaded valleys. ... Spirit is land of high,
>> white peaks, and glittering jewel like lakes and flowers. ?...But the
>> creative soul craves spirit. Out of the jungles of the lamaserary, the most
>> beautiful monks one day bid farewell to their comrades and go to make the
>> solitary journey toward the peaks, to mate with the cosmos . ..." (H. H. the
>> Dalai Lama in a letter to Peter Goullart... Quoted in an essay by James
>> Hillman Peaks & Values, Puer Papers, Spring Publications, 1979.
>
> For what it's worth, the passage above is drawn in its entirety from
> Pierre Delattre's _Tales of a Dalai Lama_ (though Hillman doesn't
> bother to note the source). The text as a whole is a work of
> Delattre's imagination; the 14th Dalai Lama wrote none of the above.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> R. Nance
> Indiana
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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> End of buddha-l Digest, Vol 49, Issue 39
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