[Buddha-l] Orders and Ordinations (was women & , er, religion)

[Alex Wilding]

Jayarava,

It is possible that in choosing the word "abuse" I exaggerated. A little. All language is usage, however - I believe there is such a thing as a Buddhist context, and that after well over 100 years, Buddhist usage in English is a reality. You use the pejorative term "jargon" to characterize the use of "ordained" in that context, from which I take it you *do* recognize that there is such a usage, but that you reject it. Much of your last post was, after all, a criticism of people who take the traditional monastic vows. Personally, I would prefer to stay with the more neutral description of "usage".

I still maintain that "ordination" is, like so many words (lama, guru, Rinpoche, enlightened - I mentioned those before, didn't I?), being diluted, and that your use of the word is contributing to that dilution. I don't think that that is a "wild accusation", and no, I haven't "lost my dictionary" - the 21 volume OED is a treasure!

You ask:
> Your blog focuses on Kagyupas. How would you describe the status of, say,
> Milarepa? Did he received an ordination from Marpa? Was he "fully" ordained? Was
> Marpa fully-ordained? What about Tilopa? (I think Naropa was a monk, yes?) So do
> the distinctions make any sense in the case of these very inspiring people?

Milarepa was a layman. No, Marpa did not "ordain" him - he gave him empowerments and teachings. As for "fully ordained" - of course not. Nor was Marpa ordained at any stage. These things are totally well known and uncontroversial. Naropa was ordained, although later in his life he ceased to be a monk. And yes, these distinctions are very important with respect to "these inspiring people". They tell us a lot about the kind of lives they were living and help us to understand both the people and the events. To blur the distinction would be to take colour and meaning out of the stories. In some places one would miss the very point of some of the tales if one ignored the contrast between ordination and lay yogic practice and life.

Nor do I think that coming from "downunder" is much of an excuse - I have found quite careful language users here - so I return to the two critical questions in my last message:
1) if you call people like yourself ordained, just what word *do* you use for the people that many of the rest of us call "ordained" (the monks and nuns)?
2) does your definition of "ordained" include, as it appears to, everyone who has taken refuge formally, taken bodhisattva vows, received an empowerment and so on?
                                    
All the best
Alex Wilding
Blog: http://chagchen.org/