[Buddha-l] Extreme practice

[Zelders.YH]

Dan wrote :

> > I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying here, Dan. Do you
> > doubt the political effect of those self-immolations,
>
>No doubt. It did nothing to ease the anti-Buddhist persecutions in S.
>Vietnam (and we wondered why the people never supported us); we continued to
>replace on N. Vietnamese Catholic with another as puppet rulers of a
>Buddhist country; so Catholic that they banned celebrations of Buddha's
>birthday, etc. -- which was what was being protested in this case.

You're right, in essence it didn't change US politics, (although it 
certainly was a factor in the fall of Diem).
But please explain, Dan, why do you speak of 'we' ? Did you perhaps 
yourself take part in deciding on those issues ?  Who exactly is 'we' 
?  You don't mean all citizens of the USA (and their political 
allies), do you ?  Some kind of group aatman ? Do 'we' carry a 
collective guilt ? I made a whole lot of stupid mistakes in my life 
but (although being a citizen of one of those Western European allied 
states and a young but supposedly responsible adult in 1963) on such 
a charge I would plead not guilty.

>It was a spectacle that received international attention, but changed no
>political opinions. People in the West were more baffled by it than
>persuaded to translate that into political action. Those who were against
>the war were already against the war. Those who were for the war dismissed
>it as an act of oriental lunacy.

Well, I can assure you, in Western Europe it changed a lot of 
political opinions. Many people there who before weren't very aware 
of what was happening in Vietnam became alerted and took an interest 
in the matter and started to protest against their governments 
slavishly following US directives. Of course, sub speciae 
aeternitatis that all could be dismissed as just some little 
effective "sound and fury", and indeed maybe that is all that it was, 
but then it shaped many people's lives, and in the end that is not nothing.

Erik wrote :

>The conflict in Vietnam was a very complex one. [.....]
and
>In such a situation it doesn't help much to pretend
>that the whole conflict was about Catholics against Buddhists.

Surely, Erik, the Vietnam conflict was quite complicated, and I don't 
think anybody - neither Dan nor Stuart nor me - suggested that it was 
mainly a struggle between buddhist and catholics.

Herman Zelders