[Buddha-l] Emptiness

[Jackhat1 at aol.com]

In a message dated 7/1/2008 4:03:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
pvera at health.usf.edu writes:

Jackhat at aol.com wrote:

>Here is my understanding. Emptiness  in the Pali Canon is emptiness of an 
>unchanging, independent reality.  Take a cart apart and you can't find 
anything 
>unchanging and  independent that is the essence of that cart. But, the cart 
is 
>still  real. That's one teaching. Another teaching is that the cart is real  
in
>a  conventional sense but can be reduced to ultimates which is  the real 
real.
> Examples of ultimate's in this case could be hardness,  smell, and color of
>the  cart's wood. There are  others.

>I guess the Mahayana view is that the cart doesn't  exist.

I don't think so Jack. I don't have references handy at the  moment but I can 
dig them up later. In my understanding, the distinction is  always made when 
talking about emptiness about being empty of inherent  existence. This is much 
like (or essentially the same) as you describe in the  first part of your 
paragraph above.

It does not mean that the cart (or  any other object, including persons) does 
not exist, but that what we see and  call a cart is a confluence of factors 
that arise and will eventually cease. I  don't think (but I leave it up the 
scholars of the list to deal with this if  they want to) that there's not much 
"ultimate" in this scheme. So I typically  don't think of reducing items of 
perception to ultimates that are really real.  I think that hardness, smell and 
color of wood are still composites that will  dissolve into something else 
eventually. I think the whole point is to reduce  clinging and attachment.
===
Pedro,
 
I will stick by my analysis for now. There are 82 ultimates according  to 
Thera's Abhidhamma. They are: consciousness, 52 mind constituents (for  example, 
effort), nirvana and 28 forms of matter. Hardness, smell and color of  wood 
are forms of matter. According to the Abhidhamma, these ultimates cannot be  
reduced further. Ultimates do arise and pass away. Yes, the whole point is to  
reduce clinging.
 
Jack



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