[Buddha-l] Back to the core values? -- and origins

[Isidoros]

Greetings everyone.

If I may focus on Bob Zeuschner initial question(s), and
after noting the many references so far in the discussion
to "early Buddhism" and the "early texts", I should like to
say that I am often left wanting, not to say perplexed,
whenever I have tried to approach the Buddha material
culture and literary evidence, and date it to my basic,
critical satisfaction.

I realize that like most all religions -- that is all traditions
that were promulgated on the oral, alongside the mythical
-- Buddhism is weighed, too, by fundamental (mis)conceptions,
as also by superstitions, and by cultural prejudices. Yet, surely
given the advanced application of scientific methodologies
and material techniques, a more reliable answer should
exist to questions surrounding the Buddha origins.

When is now considered for Buddha to had been born?
I have read a varied number of dates, that most all seem,
to me, to be more or less arbitrarily set. Even the more
historically conservative ones appear to be still seriously
skewed by exaggerated beliefs, bowing essentially to them.

For the sake of facilitating the discussion, yet without really
wanting to proscribe and influence responses, may I ask,
along historical lines: how many years before Ashoka's reign
may be said for Buddha to had been really born, and how is
this determined today? I certainly do not ask for any detailed
treatment here for the matter, but for years, for example,
I have been reading various general accounts related to
the issue (even) in this list, most alluding to an early (6th?
or 5th century?) birth date, without any references to it.
So, I wonder what is the bases for all this.

Put more directly, when and on what scientific evidence
is the Buddha thought to had been born in 560 BCE or
whenever? what is the earliest secure attestation to this
event, and of what date?

And, in regard to the discussed core values, when, and
how many years after Buddha's birth, is the earliest
literary evidence of his birth and teachings?

I have, again, read wide varying accounts to these, and
I should be thankful to have the List's learned members
opinions and responses.

A fine good day to all -- from a (thankfully) rainy Athens!

Isidoros


>I was suggesting that what the sutras say may or may not be 
>identical to the original teachings of the Buddha, the founder (as 
>the four gospels may or may not be identical to the teachings of the 
>founder). Are the Buddhist sutras more historically accurate than 
>the Christian gospels?
>
>Buddhologists date sutras and stick to those most likely to be 
>earliest in our attempt to reconstruct the founder's words.
>Then we stress certain aspects and minimize others when we write 
>books, or teach the ideas to students.
>
>Certainly each and every school of Buddhism, past and present, 
>claims to be the teachings of the founder; but they are not all 
>compatible. Theravada, Madhyamika, Pure Land, Vajrayana, Ch'an.
>My personal belief is that I doubt that it is possible to 
>reconstruct precisely and exactly what the founder taught.
>Some teachings are pretty obviously traceable back. Did he teach 
>Dukkha? Of course. Pratityasamutpada? I certainly think so. Did he 
>teach the Four Noble Truths? I believe this is more controversial. 
>Did he teach anicca? Sure. Did he teach momentariness? Not so sure.
>Bob
>
>
>Jackhat1 at aol.com wrote:
>>In a message dated 5/27/2007 1:56:35 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
>>rbzeuschner at adelphia.net writes:
>>
>>    However, when Christians say "what would Jesus do?" they are asking
>>    what
>>    their idealized vision of their founder would do (seen through 21st
>>    century eyes and expectations).
>>    I think Buddhists do the same when they want to "de-evolve" back to the
>>    teachings of the founder.
>>
>>====
>>I don't think that sticking close to what the suttas say results in 
>>an idealized vision of what the Buddha taught.
>> Jack
>
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