[Buddha-l] Historical vs Psychological Religious Narratives

[Richard Hayes]

On Monday 21 May 2007 02:02, Joy Vriens wrote:

> >That may be true for some, but for many confidence in the eightfold path
> > comes from noticing improvements in one's life as a result of following
> > the path. One need not believe that there will be an end of pain; it is
> > sufficient to know that there has been, and continues to be, an
> > incremental reduction.
>
> I can't say how much of the improvements of following a path are due to the
> effects of suggestion and autosuggestion, so I won't say it.

I don't think it matters. If a person dies of fright because of 
autosuggestion, he is still dead. If a person feels happy and fulfilled 
because of autosuggestion, he is still happy and fulfilled.

> Buddhists traditionally believe(d) in the end of pain or immortality. That
> some or even many Buddhists adjust the end of pain by making the Buddhist
> end goal more realistic is something I can only agree with. But in that
> case it would be fair to give some or many Christians the same right to
> adjust their beliefs (instead of resurrection they could believe in
> almost-resurrection or in a reduction of deadness etc.).

Yes, I agree. I see nothing wrong with adjusting the conception of the goal. 
CHristians have been doing it for centuries, though not in the ways you 
facetiously suggest.

> Another small remark, I am not sure it is a good idea to apply logical or
> mathematical equations to something as subjective as the end of pain. The
> possibility to reduce pain ("improvement") doesn't automatically imply that
> to end pain is therefore possible too. 

A minor observation: when it comes to pain there is nothing but subjective 
pain. Pain is one of those things that cannot, by its very nature, be 
objective or even inter-subjective. That aside, I quite agree with you. To 
move from "some pain has been eradicated" to "all pain can be eradicated" is 
a logical fallacy, and it would therefore be fallacious to conclude that 
nirvana, as traditionally defined, is possible. I find one mathematical 
concept useful here, namely, that of an asymptote. Nirvana can be seen as a 
limiting case, a state of zero dukkha that one can move in the direction of 
but never reach. I have been advocating an asymptotic conception of nirvana 
for decades (as a result of which some earnest non-souls have assured me I 
cannot legitimately claim to be a Buddhist, a claim that provokes vigorous 
shrugging in me, which has become my favourite aerobics excercise).

-- 
Richard Hayes
Department of Shrug Physiology
University of New Mexico