[Buddha-l] the body in Buddhist Practice

[Vicente Gonzalez]

Elihu wrote:

ES> There are some errors in the following (Full message
ES> at end):

ES> Ta-Hui was in the Lin-chi school, a Dharma heir of
ES> Yuan-Wu, not in  the Tsao-Tung school.

yes. Sorry, you are right. He belongs to Lin-chi.

ES> Interestingly,
ES> Ta-Hui was close to Hung-chih, despite their lineage
ES> and teaching differences. If you look at the
ES> literature, you will see that the "silent
ES> illumination" that Ta-Hui criticizes is a rhetorical
ES> straw man, which he sets up to argue against and to
ES> push his own vision of kung-an practice. Look at
ES> Hung-Chih's work in "Cultivating the Empty Field,"
ES> trans. D. Leighton for more; Peter Gregory's
ES> collections also has more on this.

well, in fact there is not need of personal bad relation in these
matters.
Many times the critiques between schools are designed thinking in the
consequences of a bad understanding than in the practice itself.
Frequently, many masters are thinking that beginners can be confused,
and many critiques exists in fearing these dangers.

ES> Furthermore,
ES> mo-chao does not equal zazen but is a particular style
ES> of zazen; as noted, mo-chao is not limited to the
ES> narrow definition which Ta-Hui uses in his polemics -
ES> Hung-Cih clarifies this. Zazen is the Japanese for
ES> tso-chan; your mixing this up leads to
ES> misunderstanding in your later comments.

yes. You are right in clarifying this. The exact equivalent is
tso-chan. 


ES> If you look
ES> at early Ch'an texts, you will see emphasis on zazen /
ES> tso-chan (from Bodhidharma sitting for "9 years"
ES> onward), and also emphasis on clarifying this so as
ES> not to misunderstand it

in McRae works and others there are many comments around that. The
famous "wall" would be an allegory to explain an state of the mind.


ES> (Interestingly, Dogen has some strong criticism of
ES> Ta-Hui in chapters of his Shobogenzo written at the
ES> end of his life; in fact Ta-Hui also has a text titled
ES> Shobogenzo).

it seems there are general differences in the Dogen views regarding
his presence in China. It seem the Japanese situation forced him to
make some arrangements about description of relations between Chinese
lineages, even about the personality of his master Ju-ching.

ES> A point about Dogen; he had completed the
ES> Lin-chi/Rinzai training in Japan, and in fact
ES> inherited the Dharma lineage of Lin-chi from Myozen,
ES> Eisai's heir, with whom he travelled to China. In
ES> China, he practiced under Lin-chi masters before
ES> studying with Ru-jing (Tendo Nyojo) with whom he
ES> completed his study and who is the source of his
ES> Tsao-tung/Soto lineage.

yes, he was also with Tien-tai masters. Dogen is a enormous figure in
Buddhism. 
The point was about the message of Stuart Lacks when he observed in
Advaita the body position is not so important. When it seems he was
using some reference to zazen, then I wrote about other views existing
in Chan. Now best clarified with your message.

I think when one read about the evolution of the practice in any
master, also that master is a product of his times and his personal
karma and trends. In this way Dogen becomes finally an adherent to
seated meditation and it doesn't mean he was not in contact with other
things neither his previous practices were not right. It was his
evolution.
All teachings can be perfect depending of the practitioner. There is
people who is not fully satisfied with zazen or any other, and it
doesn't mean any practice is not effective. Just depends of every
person and his moment. 

ES> To return to the Buddha's words,"In this very body,
ES> six feet in length, with its sense-impressions, its
ES> thoughts and ideas... are the world, the origin of the
ES> world, the cessation of the world, and the Way that
ES> leads to the cessation of the world."

and nothing impedes that one can realize the same thing while he
is walking. Outside the room the Mind continues. Not?

best regards,