[Buddha-l] Re: there he goes again (samharris)

[Erik Hoogcarspel]

L.S. Cousins schreef:
>
>
>> While writing this, I was reminded of another text mentioning 
>> different ways of release and rememebred I read it in Gombrich’s How 
>> Buddhism Began. And while searching for it, I stumbled upon a chapter 
>> called "Retracing an Ancient Debate: How Insight Worsted 
>> Concentration in the Pali Canon"… So apparently even among British 
>> specialists on early Buddhism potential causes for a schism exist ;-)
>
> Well, if you read that, you may have noticed a footnote in which he 
> mentions that I don't quite agree with him on precisely this point :-)
>
>>  >>What would this opposition be about if the jhaanas were a process
>>>> of developing mindfulness AND clear comprehension?
>>
>>> What it says it is. On the one hand, meditators (jhaayins) i.e. those
>>> with personal experience of nibbaana and on the other hand
>>> researchers into dhamma. To my mind, that would be those developing
>>> the abhidhamma teachings.
>>
>> Yes, I think so too. Although I am not sure the Jhaayins are the only 
>> ones to have personal experience (would that be bodily witness?) of 
>> nibbaana?
>
> In this sutta they are stated to 'touch the deathless element with the 
> body'. The followers of dhammayoga rather: "penetrate with wisdom and 
> see profound meaning (atthapada)".
>
>> Isn’t it rather about accentuating one approach instead of the other? 
>> I expect both parties must have practiced both study and meditation.
>
> It is quite clear that in this sutta the jhaayins are portrayed as 
> criticizing the followers of dhammayoga because they are 
> unconcentrated, unmindful, lacking in clear comprehension, with 
> scattered minds, etc. etc. In other words they precisely don't 
> meditate. The dhammayogas are shown as questioning the quality of the 
> meditation of the jhaayins.
>
> The point of the sutta is to urge that both appreciate the good 
> qualities of the others.
>
>>  >In fact, this discourse is attributed to Saariputta's brother
>>> Mahaacunda, not to the Buddha and is in an unusual location. This
>>> suggests to me that it probably dates from a time after the Buddha
>>> when specialization has started to develop.
>>
>> In the view of myth building and appeal to authority, the fact that 
>> the discourse is attributed to Mahaacunda and is in an unusual 
>> location is for me a strong indication of its authenticity. It can’t 
>> have been that late, if Mahaacunda was Saariputta's brother, who is 
>> said to have died before the Buddha.
>
> If one accepts that the Cunda who attended Saariputta in his last 
> illness is the same as Mahaacunda, then he would probably have 
> outlived the Buddha. But I assume that the discourse is simply 
> attributed to a famous disciple. This must be because everybody knew 
> that the Buddha had not said anything of the sort. So it should come 
> from a somewhat later time.
>
>> I am not sure, but I only have my intuition to support this :-), that 
>> those “specializations” were there right from the start of Buddhism. 
>> I see later Buddhism (the Pali canon) as a compromise.
>
> I would agree that the Buddha is likely to have taught both meditation 
> and profound study of dhamma. So for me the compromise is likely to 
> have been there from the beginning and very probably before.
>   

Lance,

the other day I stumbled upon a text called 'The Jhanas' by Ajahn 
Brahmavamso from Singapore. It is available online. From this I get the 
impression that the jhana's are not only buddhist but also a part of 
hindu teachings. Brahmavamso describes the 4th jhana as a kind of total 
samadhi where the meditator has no perceivable heartbeat and no 
preceivable breath. This reminds me of hindu yogis who let themselves be 
buried for some time. Wouldn't it be possible that all those jaayins 
were becoming selfcentered and apathic, giving themselves a jhanic 
holiday from time to time, not doing anything for the community or 
sangha, convinced as they were that they had reached real nibbana. I 
mean if jhana nr. 4 = nibbana, we could as well change to transcendental 
meditation, because this method  gives very swift  entrance into  
samadhi's.
> Erik

www.xs4all.nl/~jehms
weblog http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950