[Buddha-l] Re: What are the "joys of living"?

[Mike Austin]

In message <705190058.20060627062503 at gmail.com>, Vicente Gonzalez 
<vicen.bcn at gmail.com> writes

>MA> Then are you saying that such a person does it once, or many times? And
>MA> how does this disenchantment arise? If what you say is true, then every
>MA> being who practices thus will achieve disenchantment. Is this something
>MA> you have observed, because I certainly have not.
>
>I think anyone knows that disenchantment arise by fulfilling wishes
>instead avoid them.  All our life is pervaded of this procedure.

I am not quite sure what you mean here.  If one refers to the dictionary 
for the meaning of disenchantment, one sees that it is a negation: "free 
from enchantment; disillusion."  Therefore, it does not necessarily mean 
that one first has to become enchanted before becoming disenchanted. So, 
it is not necessary to do something in order to not want to do it. Maybe 
it often happens that way, but it is not a prerequisite.

Then,  as you mention a 'pervasive procedure', one will naturally become 
disenchanted with the causes as well as the results. So, for example, if 
lust brings disappointment, unhappiness and dukkha, then its causes will 
also bring their own disappointment, unhappiness and dukkha.  It is like 
taking poison. One has a fear of taking poison because one has a fear of 
the result. Thus one renounces samsara.


>MA> Nirvana is realised after the removal of wrong causes.
>
>we cannot remove these things, because causes exists in the past
>and effects exists in the future.
>
>Past and future only exist in our mind, so there is not things to
>remove except this same idea. Living in the present moment it's the
>removal of causes.
>
>Or maybe it is your removal of causes. In this case I agree.

One can at least cease to create further causes.  Then one can also take 
action against previous causes, just as one may brake a car after having 
accumulated speed.  Of course, the status of 'causes' is a philosophical 
issue. If it were the case that there were distinct, existing causes, it 
would be the case that the results must arise immediately. It is because 
things depend on a multitude of conditioning factors that some so-called 
'causes' may be averted.

I remember seeing a cartoon of a guy reading a book called "Being in the 
Moment". On his desk, there was a book "Being in the Moment after That." 
Although this is funny, it tells a story.  One can 'be in the moment' if 
one is unconcerned about the future.  So how does one become unconcerned 
about the future? One reduces actions that produce dukkha. Merely 'being 
in the moment' - i.e. as some sort of slogan - without appreciating this 
is like trying to achieve liberation through ignorance.

-- 
Metta
Mike Austin