[Buddha-l] Re: What are the "joys of living"?

[Vicente Gonzalez]

Mike wrote:

MA> If one can know the results of the actions, there is no
MA> benefit from performing those actions.  If one has found an act of folly
MA> to be useful, then it has already served its purpose.  One no longer has
MA> a use for it. One abandons it.  Rather than considering this as a 'moral
MA> schema',  one should think of it as following cause and effect in a such
MA> a way that it causes no regret.

I fully agree. When one knows the results, there is not benefit in
performing the actions. In the same way, I suppose you agree that
nobody can leave these actions if he doesn't know the results.


MA> What Gautama showed us and what Buddha showed us are quite different. If
MA> a doctor shows us an illness and the cure for that illness, it is not an
MA> invite for us to prolong that illness worse but to take the cure for it.

precisely. If some person is not aware of his own illness, the cure
will not be taken. In this case, the doctor press in some part of
your body and ask you if you feel pain. 

¿There is not need of that pain?. We check as same Buddha needed of a
Siddharta life before become a Buddha. 
I doubt somebody can have a better karma than Siddharta.


MA> I have never seen a disenchanted rabbit.

...you don't appreciate the cynical point in Bugs Bunny.


MA> What is this 'false idea'? Is it in conflict with cause and effect?

Nirvana is not an effect of moral actions. Good actions place us in
favorable circumstances to reach Nirvana.

In fact, you and everybody in this list know these things. Also Benito
knows the lay precepts are only five.
I cannot understand your heads.


MA> Then are you saying that such a person does it once, or many times? And
MA> how does this disenchantment arise? If what you say is true, then every
MA> being who practices thus will achieve disenchantment. Is this something
MA> you have observed, because I certainly have not.

I think anyone knows that disenchantment arise by fulfilling wishes
instead avoid them.  All our life is pervaded of this procedure.

Precisely, when one is very sure about this trend in all the life, it
is the point in where one doesn't need taste more things to check
this.


>>In short, Nirvana is not an effect of previous causes.
MA> Nirvana is realised after the removal of wrong causes.

we cannot remove these things, because causes exists in the past
and effects exists in the future.

Past and future only exist in our mind, so there is not things to
remove except this same idea. Living in the present moment it's the
removal of causes.

Or maybe it is your removal of causes. In this case I agree.


best regards,