[Buddha-l] rebirth

[Joy Vriens]

Stefan Detrez wrote:

> Maybe WE understand the teaching to be separate from  a world of devas, 
> because it would suit our secularist predispositions, but the Buddha 
> could have intended otherwise.
> In a mutlitude of suttas we meet the Buddha in dialogues with 
> 'transcendent beings', virtually claiming victory over them in every 
> debate.

He had to. How can one beat the arguments of an opponent that isn't 
there or that doesn't manifest himself? The appeal of a rebirth in the 
world of the gods was one of the things the Buddha had to fight against. 
Even amongst his own monks, see Nanda. So how could he diminish that 
appeal? By spinning it, by making it lesser in comparison to the fruit 
of full enlightenment. And it would be even better when the gods 
themselves ("been there, done that") endorsed the superiority of the 
Buddha's awakening over their own status. Robert reminded us of 
Vasubandhu saying:
'The Aryans make of existence in the most sublime heaven (bhavaagra) an idea
more painful than do fools make of existence in the most dreadful hell'.
Which suggests they knew how to spin.

Joy