[Buddha-l] Re: H.H. The Dalai Lama vs Geshe Michael Roach

[Vicente Gonzalez]

Benito wrote:

BC>    It's true that my practice has led me to cherish the
BC> precepts,  but  it's  not  that someone has asked me to
BC> follow  them,  it's  that my "wisdom" asks me to try to
BC> live  by  them  because  I understand that they are the
BC> right  thing  to  do--and I fail sometimes, more than I
BC> wished.

well, my last comnents were not about you but Roach case.
Anyway, one cannot project indiscriminately the own point
of understanding towards other people so they must follow
same moral rules. Precepts are five.


BC>    And  yes,  I think that it's possible to live a life
BC> ruled  by  semi-monastic Buddhist precepts in the midst
BC> of  a  lay  society.

maybe in exceptional cases but it is not realistic. A person who is
working in a big city with an insecure job. stress, family duties,
economic problems, competitiveness, etc... this person cannot follow
Vinaya rules. Five precepts are enough difficult.
Buddha already was aware of that in the India of 2500 b.c. and today
it is more obvious. Check this in Dighajanu Sutta.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.054.than.html

BC> In fact, this week I talked them about  master  Hakuin  and his
BC> love for sake and tobacco, just  to  illustrate  the  real  life
BC> of  a  real  great Zen  master--not  everyone can be as venerable
BC> master Xuyun,  although I think that it would be most desirable).

I think we cannot make such comparisons. Xu Yun was important in times
of decadence in Chinese monastics because he was a living example of
needed changes. Hakuin was a user of sake but also he was in contact
with popular classes in another culture and circumstances.

BC> This  society  is  deeply  sick,  and  I  can't  think of any
BC> intelligent  human  being  wanting  to be part of if or
BC> follow  its  ways.

society always is sick. There is not a time of the human History
in where society was not perceived as sick.

It is because in any time there is people able to look in another way.
Some people becomes artist to express a beauty which remains invisible
in a first look, although most of people doesn't have that wish.
In the same way, one is engaged in Dharma to express the truth in a
world of lies and suffering, although most people doesn't have
interest in seeing beyond that. However, one cannot feel himself 
aside of the world. Buddha did not teach a separated mystical state.
Buddhist enlightenment includes the phenomenic world, all things and
people as they are now.

A lay follower can have dance and sex. One must observe his own mind
to avoid attachment, addiction, damaging others and oneself. When
sometimes one feel the need to progress in a easier environment, then
one can follow the Buddha advice and go for retreat. After some
retreats there is some people who are more happy when they are in
the monastic experience. Then they become monks if they want, to
follow Vinaya and the rest. As always has happened. I think there is
not need of new experiments in this matter because human nature it's
exactly the same of 2500 years ago. 


BC> Then,  although it's quite probable
BC> that  I  will  end  my  life  as  a Chan monk in a Chan
BC> monastery,  I think that our shared society needs a lot
BC> of semi-monastic people walking down their streets.

in 10 years this north hemisphere will be frozen, so walking by the
streets can be a bad idea. Better go far to the south if you are
thinking in long walks. 

BC>    But this is the wisdom of a fool, you know.

yes, I know you are fool.

BC> He  can  live  as he wants, but I think that it's not a
BC>  goot  idea  to  claim  the  eight bodhisattva level for
BC>  himself.   But,   who  knows,  maybe  it  was  just  an
BC>  unfortunate joke.

I'm not sure. Some tibetan lamas have women although maybe M.Roach
it's a Gelug. Anyway, I agree that according mahayana teaching no
bodhisattva can be aware that himself is a bodhisattva.
In these times there is in the West an high moral exigency to religious
people. But also a monk has the duty of being a living example of what
people expect. A monk can smoke in Myanmar but probably not in the
West. Some can have women in Tibet but probably not here. Probably
the people need a more clear explanation of these things.

Beyond that, these cases also personifies the strange obsession in
these times to be an spiritual master of other people. I imagine that
becoming a Buddhist master can be a position quite difficult to
understand even more to manage. Although it seems that nobody is
concerned about this because today spiritual masters grows everywhere
like mushrooms.

br,