[Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 103, Issue 6

Fri Sep 13 00:30:30 MDT 2013

Dan, do you think that these resistance groups consult wikipedia before
determining how they identify? We are not talking here about what the
ur-identity of these groups may or may not have been. The fact remains that
today, they self-identify as ethnically Uighur (or Uzbek or Tajik etc).

Let's let them speak for themselves. Rebiya Kadeer being interviewed at
Harvard in 2010:

http://harvardpolitics.com/online/hprgument-blog/ace-interview-with-rebiya-kadeer/

"Where would you like to see East Turkistan, also known as China’s Xinjiang
Uighur Autonomous Region, ten or fifteen years from now?"

RD: I’d like to see positive changes take place in East Turkestan in the
next decade in terms the political situation there. I hope the Uyghur
people enjoy human rights, freedom, and genuine autonomy and protection of
their unique ethnic identity.

But then again maybe we would be best served calling a point of order on Ms
Kadeer and reminding her of mistaken notions of ethnicity and referring her
to Wikipedia for the origins of her so-called Uighurs?

AFJ

On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Dan Lusthaus <vasubandhu at earthlink.net>wrote:

> (For some reason, this message, which I sent before the last one to
> Richard, hasn't come through yet, so I am re-sending)
>
>
>  What?! Ethnicity isn't vague or plastic to a Uighur or an Uzbek or a
>> Tajik!
>> Those appellations mean very real things to those communities, hence the
>> ongoing conflicts.
>>
>
> Being a Uighur is a tribal identification, not an "ethnicity." "Ethnically"
> they are considered Turks.
>
> Wikipedia (because it is easily confirmable online, and I promise I had
> nothing to do with the composition of the entry):
>
> --
> The term Uyghur disappeared from historical records in the 15th century,
> but
> the Bolsheviks reintroduced the term Uyghur to replace the previously used
> Turk or Turki. In modern usage, Uyghur refers to settled Turkic urban
> dwellers and farmers of Kashgaria or Uyghurstan who follow traditional
> Central Asian sedentary practices, as distinguished from nomadic Turkic
> populations in Central Asia.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Uyghur_people<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_people>
> --
>
> As I said, accurately, these "ethnic" identifications are modern with
> imperialist underpinnings.
>
> More detailed:
>
> --
> Throughout history, the term Uyghur has taken on an increasingly expansive
> definition. Initially signifying only a small coalition of Tiele tribes in
> Northern China, Mongolia, and the Altay Mountains, it later denoted
> citizenship in the Uyghur Khaganate. Finally it was expanded to an
> ethnicity
> whose ancestry originates with the fall of the Uyghur Khaganate in the year
> 842, which caused Uyghur migration from Mongolia into the Tarim Basin. This
> migration assimilated and replaced the Indo-Europeans of the region to
> create a distinct identity, as the language and culture of the Turkic
> migrants eventually supplanted the original Indo-European influences. This
> ***fluid definition of Uyghur and the diverse ancestry of modern Uyghurs
> are
> a source of confusion about what constitutes true Uyghur ethnography and
> ethnogenesis.***
> (ibid, emphasis added)
> --
>
> And
>
> --
> ""The Uighurs are the people whom old Russian travellers called Sart (a
> name
> which they used for sedentary, Turkish-speaking Central Asians in general),
> while Western travellers called them Turki, in recognition of their
> language. The Chinese used to call them Ch'an-t'ou ('Turbaned Heads') but
> this term has been dropped, being considered derogatory, and the Chinese,
> using their own pronunciation, now called them Weiwuerh. As a matter of
> fact
> there was for centuries no 'national' name for them; people identified
> themselves with the oasis they came from, like Kashgar or Turfan."" - Owen
> Lattimore, "Return to China's Northern Frontier." The Geographical Journal,
> Vol. 139, No. 2, June 1973
> --
>
> and Wikipedia, in even greater detail:
>
> --
> The term "Uyghur" was not used to refer to any existing ethnic group in the
> 19th century, but to an ancient people. A late 19th-century encyclopedia
> titled The cyclopædia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia said "the
> Uigur are the most ancient of Turkish tribes, and formerly inhabited a part
> of Chinese Tartary (Xinjiang), which is now occupied by a mixed population
> of Turk, Mongol, and Kalmuck".[28] The inhabitants of Xinjiang were not
> called Uyghur before 1921/1934. Westerners called the Turkic speaking
> Muslims of the Oases "Turki", and the Turkic Muslims in Ili were known as
> "Taranchi". The Russians and other foreigners used the names "Sart",[29]
> "Turk", or "Turki"[30][31] for them. These groups of peoples identified
> themselves by the oases they came from, not by an ethnic group.[32] Names
> such as Kashgarliq to mean Kashgari were used.[33] The Turkic people also
> used "Musulman", which means "Muslim", to describe themselves.[33][34]
>
> The name "Uyghur" reappeared after the Soviet Union took the 9th-century
> ethnonym from the Uyghur Khaganate and reapplied it to all non-nomadic
> Turkic Muslims of Xinjiang,[35] following a 19th-century proposal from
> Russian historians that modern-day Uyghurs were descended from the Turpan
> Kingdom and Kara-Khanid Khanate, which had formed after the dissolution of
> the Uyghur Khaganate.[36] Historians generally agree that the adoption of
> the term "Uyghur" is based on a decision from a 1921 conference in
> Tashkent,
> which was attended by Turkic Muslims from the Tarim Basin
> (Xinjiang).[35][37][38] There, "Uyghur" was chosen by them as the name of
> their own ethnic group, although the delegates noted that the modern groups
> referred to as "Uyghur" were distinct from the old Uyghur Khaganate.[29]
> According to Linda Benson, the Soviets and their client Sheng Shicai
> intended to foster a Uyghur nationality to divide the Muslim population of
> Xinjiang, whereas the various Turkic Muslim peoples themselves preferred to
> identify as "Turki", "East Turkestani", or "Muslim".[29]
>
> On the other hand, the ruling regime of China at that time, the Kuomintang,
> grouped all Muslims, including the Turkic-speaking people of Xinjiang, into
> the "Hui nationality".[39][40] They generally referred to the Turkic
> Muslims
> of Xinjiang as "Chan Tou Hui" (turban-headed Muslim).[29][41][42]
> Westerners
> traveling in Xinjiang in the 1930s, like George W. Hunter, Peter Fleming,
> Ella K. Maillart, and Sven Hedin, all referred to the Turkic Muslims of the
> region not as Uyghur, but as "Turki", in their books. Use of the term
> "Uyghur" was unknown in Xinjiang until 1934, when the governor Sheng Shicai
> came to power in there. Sheng adopted the Soviets' ethnographic
> classification rather than that of the Kuomintang and became the first to
> promulgate the official use of the term "Uyghur" to describe the Turkic
> Muslims of Xinjiang.[29][36][43] After the Communist victory, the Chinese
> Communist Party under Mao Zedong continued the Soviet classification, using
> the term "Uyghur" to describe the modern ethnic group.[29]
>
> Another ethnic group, the Buddhist Yugur of Gansu, by contrast, have
> consistently been called by themselves and others the "Yellow Uyghur"
> (Säriq
> Uyghur).[44] Scholars like Joana Breidenbach say that the Yugur's culture,
> language, and religion are closer to the original culture of the original
> Uyghur Karakorum state than is the culture of the modern Uyghur people of
> Xinjiang.[45] Linguist and ethnographer S. Robert Ramsey has argued for
> inclusion of both the Yugur and the Salar as subgroups of Uyghur (based on
> similar historical roots for the Yugur and on perceived linguistic
> similarities for the Salar). These groups are recognized as separate ethnic
> groups, though, by the Chinese government.[46]
>
> Pan-Turkic Jadidists and East Turkestan Independence activists Muhammad
> Amin
> Bughra (Mehmet Emin) and Masud Sabri rejected the Soviet imposition of the
> name "Uyghur" upon the Turkic people of Xinjiang. They wanted instead the
> name "Turkic ethnicity" (Tujue zu in Chinese) to be applied to their
> people.
> Masud Sabri also viewed the Hui people as Muslim Han Chinese and separate
> from his own people.[47] The names "Türk" or "Türki" in particular were
> demanded by Bughra as the real name for his people. He criticized Sheng
> Shicai for his designation of Turkic Muslims into different ethnicities
> which could sow disunion among Turkic Muslims.[48]
>
> In current usage, Uyghur refers to settled Turkic urban dwellers and
> farmers
> of the Tarim Basin and Ili who follow traditional Central Asian sedentary
> practices, as distinguished from nomadic Turkic populations in Central
> Asia.
> However, the Chinese government has also designated as "Uyghur" certain
> peoples with significantly divergent histories and ancestries from the main
> group. These include the Loplik people and the Dolan people, who are
> thought
> to be closer to the Oirat Mongols and the Kyrgyz.[49][50]
>
> --
>
> We could go through the same with the other identifications.
>
> The original Uighurs were Manichaeans.
>
> The "Uighurs" you are talking about are Turkic muslims (not Yellow
> Buddhists, e.g.) with territorial ambitions in western China.
>
> Call me more names, and expose your own simpleminded lack of historical
> sense.
>
> cheers,
>
> Dan
>
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