From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Oct 11 18:38:21 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 20:38:21 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes article on the Emory U Tibetans and Science project References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan> Message-ID: >From nyt. There's a photo with article online. Dan http://tinyurl.com/mczwsbt October 11, 2013 A Bridge Between Western Science and Eastern Faith By KIM SEVERSON ATLANTA - Quantum theory tells us that the world is a product of an infinite number of random events. Buddhism teaches us that nothing happens without a cause, trapping the universe in an unending karmic cycle. Reconciling the two might seem as challenging as trying to explain the Higgs boson to a kindergarten class. But if someone has to do it, it might as well be the team of scholars, translators and six Tibetan monks clad in maroon robes who can be spied wandering among the magnolias at Emory University here. They were joined this week by the Dalai Lama, the spiritual leader of the Tibetan people, who decided seven years ago that it was time to merge the hard science of the laboratory with the soft science of the meditative mind. The leaders at Emory, who already had created formal relationships with Tibetan students there, agreed, and a unique partnership was formed. For the monks, some of the challenges have been mundane, like learning to like pizza and trying to understand Lord Dooley, the university's skeleton mascot. For the team of professors involved in the project, the Emory-Tibet Science Initiative, there are the larger issues, like how to develop methods to quantify the power of meditation in a way the scientific world might actually accept. But for the Dalai Lama, an energetic 78-year-old who rises at 3:30 every morning for four hours of meditation, his pet project is kind of a no-brainer. Buddhist teaching offers education about the mind, he said in an interview after lunch Thursday at the home of James W. Wagner, the university president. "It is quite rich material about what I call the inner world," he said. "Modern science is very highly developed in matters concerning the material world. These two things separately are not complete. Together, the external and the internal worlds are complete." The first batch of six monks, who arrived on campus on 2010, have gone back to India, where much of the Tibetan exile community lives, and started teaching. Dozens of monks and nuns have taken lectures from Emory professors who traveled to Dharamsala, India, to instruct them, and 15 English-Tibetan science textbooks have been developed for monastic students. The university pays about $700,000 a year for the program, which includes tuition for the monks, who then go back and teach science in the monasteries. It has not been a smooth road. It took until last year for Buddhist leaders to accept science education as a mandatory part of monastic education. It was the first major change in 600 years. But as anyone who has tried to carry out an idea from the boss knows, the real work is in the details. Many of the toughest battles have come down to seemingly simple but vexing issues of lexicon. How does one create new words for concepts like photosynthesis and clones, which have no equivalent in the Tibetan language or culture? How does one begin to name thousands of molecules and chemical compounds? And what of words like process, which have several levels of meaning for Tibetans? So far, 2,500 new scientific terms have been added to the Tibetan language. "Much of our work is to make new phrases novel enough so students won't take them with literal meaning," said Tsondue Samphel, who leads the team of translators. Still, some concepts are quite easy to translate. "We understand impermanence of things as simply existing through our traditions," said Jampa Khechok, 34, one of the new monks on campus. "We are now challenged to understand the nature of impermanence through the study of how fast particles decay." Learning has gone both ways. Professors here find themselves contemplating the science of the heart and mind in new ways. A student presenting a report on the cardiovascular system described the physiological reaction his own cardiovascular system might have if he were told the Tibetan people were free. Debate is a constant, said Alexander Escobar of Emory, who has gone to India to teach biology. Monks have wanted to know, for example, how he could be so sure that seawater once covered the Himalayas. (The answer? Fossils.) Western scholars have had to look at their work with a new lens, too, contemplating matters like the nature and origins of consciousness. One result has been the development of something called cognitively based compassion training, a secular mediation program proven to improve empathy. The partnership has had other, more practical applications. Linda Hutton, a social worker, has a longstanding clinical practice treating sexually abused children and families in Greenville, S.C. She drove to Atlanta this week to attend a private luncheon with the Dalai Lama, who was making his sixth visit to Emory. She teaches her young victims and their families to practice mindfulness and how to use meditation and breathing to cope with trauma. "I draw from a lot of medical research," she said, "but what I have found here transcends that." From joy.vriens at gmail.com Sat Oct 12 00:46:51 2013 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 08:46:51 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes article on the Emory U Tibetans and Science project In-Reply-To: References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan> Message-ID: <5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com> The outcome of this "reconciliation"? Judging by the photo, I expect new practises to be created (or rediscovered in the form of termas). A vipassana practice based on the arising and disappearing of particles. And a sadhana of the Hoggs boson with hymns, offerings, mantra recitation and a homa. Joy Le 12/10/2013 02:38, Dan Lusthaus a ?crit : > From nyt. There's a photo with article online. > Dan > > http://tinyurl.com/mczwsbt > > October 11, 2013 > A Bridge Between Western Science and Eastern Faith > By KIM SEVERSON > ATLANTA - Quantum theory tells us that the world is a product of an > infinite number of random events. Buddhism teaches us that nothing > happens without a cause, trapping the universe in an unending karmic > cycle. > > Reconciling the two might seem as challenging as trying to explain the > Higgs boson to a kindergarten class. But if someone has to do it, it > might as well be the team of scholars, translators and six Tibetan > monks clad in maroon robes who can be spied wandering among the > magnolias at Emory University here. > > They were joined this week by the Dalai Lama, the spiritual leader of > the Tibetan people, who decided seven years ago that it was time to > merge the hard science of the laboratory with the soft science of the > meditative mind. > > The leaders at Emory, who already had created formal relationships > with Tibetan students there, agreed, and a unique partnership was formed. > > For the monks, some of the challenges have been mundane, like learning > to like pizza and trying to understand Lord Dooley, the university's > skeleton mascot. > > For the team of professors involved in the project, the Emory-Tibet > Science Initiative, there are the larger issues, like how to develop > methods to quantify the power of meditation in a way the scientific > world might actually accept. > > But for the Dalai Lama, an energetic 78-year-old who rises at 3:30 > every morning for four hours of meditation, his pet project is kind of > a no-brainer. > > Buddhist teaching offers education about the mind, he said in an > interview after lunch Thursday at the home of James W. Wagner, the > university president. > > "It is quite rich material about what I call the inner world," he > said. "Modern science is very highly developed in matters concerning > the material world. These two things separately are not complete. > Together, the external and the internal worlds are complete." > > The first batch of six monks, who arrived on campus on 2010, have gone > back to India, where much of the Tibetan exile community lives, and > started teaching. Dozens of monks and nuns have taken lectures from > Emory professors who traveled to Dharamsala, India, to instruct them, > and 15 English-Tibetan science textbooks have been developed for > monastic students. > > The university pays about $700,000 a year for the program, which > includes tuition for the monks, who then go back and teach science in > the monasteries. > > It has not been a smooth road. It took until last year for Buddhist > leaders to accept science education as a mandatory part of monastic > education. It was the first major change in 600 years. > > But as anyone who has tried to carry out an idea from the boss knows, > the real work is in the details. > > Many of the toughest battles have come down to seemingly simple but > vexing issues of lexicon. How does one create new words for concepts > like photosynthesis and clones, which have no equivalent in the > Tibetan language or culture? How does one begin to name thousands of > molecules and chemical compounds? And what of words like process, > which have several levels of meaning for Tibetans? > > So far, 2,500 new scientific terms have been added to the Tibetan > language. > > "Much of our work is to make new phrases novel enough so students > won't take them with literal meaning," said Tsondue Samphel, who leads > the team of translators. > > Still, some concepts are quite easy to translate. > > "We understand impermanence of things as simply existing through our > traditions," said Jampa Khechok, 34, one of the new monks on campus. > "We are now challenged to understand the nature of impermanence > through the study of how fast particles decay." > > Learning has gone both ways. Professors here find themselves > contemplating the science of the heart and mind in new ways. A student > presenting a report on the cardiovascular system described the > physiological reaction his own cardiovascular system might have if he > were told the Tibetan people were free. > > Debate is a constant, said Alexander Escobar of Emory, who has gone to > India to teach biology. Monks have wanted to know, for example, how he > could be so sure that seawater once covered the Himalayas. (The > answer? Fossils.) > > Western scholars have had to look at their work with a new lens, too, > contemplating matters like the nature and origins of consciousness. > > One result has been the development of something called cognitively > based compassion training, a secular mediation program proven to > improve empathy. > > The partnership has had other, more practical applications. > > Linda Hutton, a social worker, has a longstanding clinical practice > treating sexually abused children and families in Greenville, S.C. She > drove to Atlanta this week to attend a private luncheon with the Dalai > Lama, who was making his sixth visit to Emory. > > She teaches her young victims and their families to practice > mindfulness and how to use meditation and breathing to cope with trauma. > > "I draw from a lot of medical research," she said, "but what I have > found here transcends that." > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jehms at xs4all.nl Sat Oct 12 10:29:03 2013 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 18:29:03 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes article on the Emory U Tibetans and Science project In-Reply-To: <5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com> References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan> <5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <525978CF.7020209@xs4all.nl> Naturalizing Buddhism, bi??u becomes Higgs Boson. When they have converted to the new belief, we 'll tell them about Paul Feyerabend and Bruno Latour. Than the fun starts again. Erik Joy Vriens schreef op 12-10-2013 8:46: > The outcome of this "reconciliation"? Judging by the photo, I expect > new practises to be created (or rediscovered in the form of termas). A > vipassana practice based on the arising and disappearing of particles. > And a sadhana of the Hoggs boson with hymns, offerings, mantra > recitation and a homa. > > Joy > > Le 12/10/2013 02:38, Dan Lusthaus a ?crit : >> From nyt. There's a photo with article online. >> Dan >> >> http://tinyurl.com/mczwsbt >> >> October 11, 2013 >> A Bridge Between Western Science and Eastern Faith >> By KIM SEVERSON >> ATLANTA - Quantum theory tells us that the world is a product of an >> infinite number of random events. Buddhism teaches us that nothing >> happens without a cause, trapping the universe in an unending karmic >> cycle. >> >> Reconciling the two might seem as challenging as trying to explain >> the Higgs boson to a kindergarten class. But if someone has to do it, >> it might as well be the team of scholars, translators and six Tibetan >> monks clad in maroon robes who can be spied wandering among the >> magnolias at Emory University here. >> >> They were joined this week by the Dalai Lama, the spiritual leader of >> the Tibetan people, who decided seven years ago that it was time to >> merge the hard science of the laboratory with the soft science of the >> meditative mind. >> >> The leaders at Emory, who already had created formal relationships >> with Tibetan students there, agreed, and a unique partnership was >> formed. >> >> For the monks, some of the challenges have been mundane, like >> learning to like pizza and trying to understand Lord Dooley, the >> university's skeleton mascot. >> >> For the team of professors involved in the project, the Emory-Tibet >> Science Initiative, there are the larger issues, like how to develop >> methods to quantify the power of meditation in a way the scientific >> world might actually accept. >> >> But for the Dalai Lama, an energetic 78-year-old who rises at 3:30 >> every morning for four hours of meditation, his pet project is kind >> of a no-brainer. >> >> Buddhist teaching offers education about the mind, he said in an >> interview after lunch Thursday at the home of James W. Wagner, the >> university president. >> >> "It is quite rich material about what I call the inner world," he >> said. "Modern science is very highly developed in matters concerning >> the material world. These two things separately are not complete. >> Together, the external and the internal worlds are complete." >> >> The first batch of six monks, who arrived on campus on 2010, have >> gone back to India, where much of the Tibetan exile community lives, >> and started teaching. Dozens of monks and nuns have taken lectures >> from Emory professors who traveled to Dharamsala, India, to instruct >> them, and 15 English-Tibetan science textbooks have been developed >> for monastic students. >> >> The university pays about $700,000 a year for the program, which >> includes tuition for the monks, who then go back and teach science in >> the monasteries. >> >> It has not been a smooth road. It took until last year for Buddhist >> leaders to accept science education as a mandatory part of monastic >> education. It was the first major change in 600 years. >> >> But as anyone who has tried to carry out an idea from the boss knows, >> the real work is in the details. >> >> Many of the toughest battles have come down to seemingly simple but >> vexing issues of lexicon. How does one create new words for concepts >> like photosynthesis and clones, which have no equivalent in the >> Tibetan language or culture? How does one begin to name thousands of >> molecules and chemical compounds? And what of words like process, >> which have several levels of meaning for Tibetans? >> >> So far, 2,500 new scientific terms have been added to the Tibetan >> language. >> >> "Much of our work is to make new phrases novel enough so students >> won't take them with literal meaning," said Tsondue Samphel, who >> leads the team of translators. >> >> Still, some concepts are quite easy to translate. >> >> "We understand impermanence of things as simply existing through our >> traditions," said Jampa Khechok, 34, one of the new monks on campus. >> "We are now challenged to understand the nature of impermanence >> through the study of how fast particles decay." >> >> Learning has gone both ways. Professors here find themselves >> contemplating the science of the heart and mind in new ways. A >> student presenting a report on the cardiovascular system described >> the physiological reaction his own cardiovascular system might have >> if he were told the Tibetan people were free. >> >> Debate is a constant, said Alexander Escobar of Emory, who has gone >> to India to teach biology. Monks have wanted to know, for example, >> how he could be so sure that seawater once covered the Himalayas. >> (The answer? Fossils.) >> >> Western scholars have had to look at their work with a new lens, too, >> contemplating matters like the nature and origins of consciousness. >> >> One result has been the development of something called cognitively >> based compassion training, a secular mediation program proven to >> improve empathy. >> >> The partnership has had other, more practical applications. >> >> Linda Hutton, a social worker, has a longstanding clinical practice >> treating sexually abused children and families in Greenville, S.C. >> She drove to Atlanta this week to attend a private luncheon with the >> Dalai Lama, who was making his sixth visit to Emory. >> >> She teaches her young victims and their families to practice >> mindfulness and how to use meditation and breathing to cope with trauma. >> >> "I draw from a lot of medical research," she said, "but what I have >> found here transcends that." >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Oct 12 11:06:28 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 17:06:28 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes article on the Emory U Tibetans and Science project In-Reply-To: <525978CF.7020209@xs4all.nl> References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan> <5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com>,<525978CF.7020209@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <8A34CA7B-3FD3-4516-AB57-30806F39AD1F@unm.edu> On Oct 12, 2013, at 10:30, "Erik Hoogcarspel" wrote: > Naturalizing Buddhism, bi??u becomes Higgs Boson. I love physics and I love Buddhism. What I can barely stomach is mixing them together into a conceptual mush that fails to be either good science or good Buddhism. From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Oct 12 14:37:15 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 16:37:15 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes article on the Emory U Tibetans and Science project References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan><5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com>, <525978CF.7020209@xs4all.nl> <8A34CA7B-3FD3-4516-AB57-30806F39AD1F@unm.edu> Message-ID: <5DF9B401E7264E0BBE2EBFFB6BAA2E69@Dan> A curious reaction to the news that HHDL encourages Tibetans to catch up with western science and develop justicatory methods for confirming and promotiong Tibetan practices. As if some in the west want to maintain separate realities -- one for the scientifically conceived world and another, separate one for a certain imaginal world that might operate by different rules. Why assume Tibetans would be incapable of understanding scientific methods and knowledge on its own terms? Are they culturally retarded? After years of working on Asanga, who was very interested in being as up-to-date with the sciences of his day -- esp. medicine -- for underlying principles and explanations for his philosophy, the idea of updating Buddhist appreciations of scientific knowledge not only seems reasonable, but desirable. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Oct 12 15:50:55 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 21:50:55 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes article on the Emory U Tibetans and Science project In-Reply-To: <5DF9B401E7264E0BBE2EBFFB6BAA2E69@Dan> References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan><5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com>, <525978CF.7020209@xs4all.nl> <8A34CA7B-3FD3-4516-AB57-30806F39AD1F@unm.edu>, <5DF9B401E7264E0BBE2EBFFB6BAA2E69@Dan> Message-ID: On Oct 12, 2013, at 14:38, "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > Why assume Tibetans would be incapable of understanding scientific methods and knowledge on its own terms? Are they culturally retarded? I can't imagine a more bizarre interpretation of what anyone here has said recently. No such assumption was made by anyone. Why assume that such an assumption was being made by anyone? Richard From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Oct 12 16:16:38 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 18:16:38 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes article on the Emory U Tibetans andScience project References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan><5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com>, <525978CF.7020209@xs4all.nl><8A34CA7B-3FD3-4516-AB57-30806F39AD1F@unm.edu>, <5DF9B401E7264E0BBE2EBFFB6BAA2E69@Dan> Message-ID: >> Why assume Tibetans would be incapable of understanding scientific >> methods and knowledge on its own terms? Are they culturally retarded? > > I can't imagine a more bizarre interpretation of what anyone here has said > recently. No such assumption was made by anyone. Why assume that such an > assumption was being made by anyone? > Richard Then why discourage them from doing so? It was a rhetorical question designed to illustrate how absurd wishing Tibetans would stay away from science is. I can't imagine anyone who is intelligent not recognizing that. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Oct 12 16:54:35 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 22:54:35 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes article on the Emory U Tibetans andScience project In-Reply-To: References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan><5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com>, <525978CF.7020209@xs4all.nl><8A34CA7B-3FD3-4516-AB57-30806F39AD1F@unm.edu>, <5DF9B401E7264E0BBE2EBFFB6BAA2E69@Dan> , Message-ID: <2A2B0F92-9F85-4AE4-930A-AB1B15062E15@unm.edu> On Oct 12, 2013, at 16:17, "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > It was a rhetorical question designed to illustrate how absurd wishing Tibetans would stay away from science is. I quite agree that it would be absurd to wish Tibetans would stay away from science. But who suggested a wish for any such thing? Richard From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Oct 12 16:59:55 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 18:59:55 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes article on the Emory UTibetans andScience project References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan><5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com>, <525978CF.7020209@xs4all.nl><8A34CA7B-3FD3-4516-AB57-30806F39AD1F@unm.edu>, <5DF9B401E7264E0BBE2EBFFB6BAA2E69@Dan>, <2A2B0F92-9F85-4AE4-930A-AB1B15062E15@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4E42F5A77F524B85B7432D6182E06204@Dan> > I quite agree that it would be absurd to wish Tibetans would stay away > from science. But who suggested a wish for any such thing? > Richard That would be the gist of finding modern science entering the TIbetan curriculm unnerving or a mixture one can barely stomach. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Oct 12 17:31:38 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 23:31:38 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes article on the Emory UTibetans andScience project In-Reply-To: <4E42F5A77F524B85B7432D6182E06204@Dan> References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan><5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com>, <525978CF.7020209@xs4all.nl><8A34CA7B-3FD3-4516-AB57-30806F39AD1F@unm.edu>, <5DF9B401E7264E0BBE2EBFFB6BAA2E69@Dan>, <2A2B0F92-9F85-4AE4-930A-AB1B15062E15@unm.edu>, <4E42F5A77F524B85B7432D6182E06204@Dan> Message-ID: On Oct 12, 2013, at 17:00, "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > > That would be the gist of finding modern science entering the TIbetan curriculm unnerving or a mixture one can barely stomach. You can't read, Danny boy. Never could. Now you go back and see what I actually wrote and tell me where it says anything about Tibetans. From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Oct 12 18:00:59 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 20:00:59 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes article on theEmory UTibetans andScience project References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan><5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com>, <525978CF.7020209@xs4all.nl><8A34CA7B-3FD3-4516-AB57-30806F39AD1F@unm.edu>, <5DF9B401E7264E0BBE2EBFFB6BAA2E69@Dan>, <2A2B0F92-9F85-4AE4-930A-AB1B15062E15@unm.edu>, <4E42F5A77F524B85B7432D6182E06204@Dan> Message-ID: <2632BA2988534435A958F21BF2E86A6F@Dan> > You can't read, Danny boy. Never could. Now you go back and see what I > actually wrote and tell me where it says anything about Tibetans. Why don't you edify us and explain the principle of carrying over the implicit subject in Sanskrit. In this case, the subject was entirely explicit, evident in the subject line of this thread, not to mention the article that everyone was responding to. You don't know how to own your own words. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Oct 12 18:17:11 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 00:17:11 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes article on theEmory UTibetans andScience project In-Reply-To: <2632BA2988534435A958F21BF2E86A6F@Dan> References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan><5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com>, <525978CF.7020209@xs4all.nl><8A34CA7B-3FD3-4516-AB57-30806F39AD1F@unm.edu>, <5DF9B401E7264E0BBE2EBFFB6BAA2E69@Dan>, <2A2B0F92-9F85-4AE4-930A-AB1B15062E15@unm.edu>, <4E42F5A77F524B85B7432D6182E06204@Dan> , <2632BA2988534435A958F21BF2E86A6F@Dan> Message-ID: On Oct 12, 2013, at 18:02, "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > Why don't you edify us and explain the principle of carrying over the implicit subject in Sanskrit. Read what I wrote. The context is given by the line I quoted, which was written by Erik. I took his remark to be an ironic and pithy way of saying something I agreed with. You trouble in this, as in so many other things, is that you assume the very worst in some people and then imagine that your assumptions have some validity. In this matter, as in so many others, you missed by a country yojana. From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Oct 12 19:10:02 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 21:10:02 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes articleon theEmory UTibetans andScience project References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan><5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com>, <525978CF.7020209@xs4all.nl><8A34CA7B-3FD3-4516-AB57-30806F39AD1F@unm.edu>, <5DF9B401E7264E0BBE2EBFFB6BAA2E69@Dan>, <2A2B0F92-9F85-4AE4-930A-AB1B15062E15@unm.edu>, <4E42F5A77F524B85B7432D6182E06204@Dan>, <2632BA2988534435A958F21BF2E86A6F@Dan> Message-ID: <83BA9BB8F7054911B9EB45193079329F@Dan> So you (pretend to) wander off topic and then accuse me of straying... typical. transparent. tiresome. D ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Hayes" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] nytimes articleon theEmory UTibetans andScience project > On Oct 12, 2013, at 18:02, "Dan Lusthaus" > wrote: > >> Why don't you edify us and explain the principle of carrying over the >> implicit subject in Sanskrit. > > Read what I wrote. The context is given by the line I quoted, which was > written by Erik. I took his remark to be an ironic and pithy way of saying > something I agreed with. You trouble in this, as in so many other things, > is that you assume the very worst in some people and then imagine that > your assumptions have some validity. In this matter, as in so many others, > you missed by a country yojana. > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Oct 12 20:02:45 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 02:02:45 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes articleon theEmory UTibetans andScience project In-Reply-To: <83BA9BB8F7054911B9EB45193079329F@Dan> References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan><5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com>, <525978CF.7020209@xs4all.nl><8A34CA7B-3FD3-4516-AB57-30806F39AD1F@unm.edu>, <5DF9B401E7264E0BBE2EBFFB6BAA2E69@Dan>, <2A2B0F92-9F85-4AE4-930A-AB1B15062E15@unm.edu>, <4E42F5A77F524B85B7432D6182E06204@Dan>, <2632BA2988534435A958F21BF2E86A6F@Dan> , <83BA9BB8F7054911B9EB45193079329F@Dan> Message-ID: On Oct 12, 2013, at 19:11, "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > So you (pretend to) wander off topic and then accuse me of straying... No, I didn't pretend anything. I wrote directly on the theme of the line I quoted. I actually didn't even notice the subject line, nor did I read the NY Times article. I had no idea what it was about, aside from what is said in the subject line. But all's well that ends well. You got to make a bunch of gratuitous and wildly inaccurate negative remarks about the person you wrongly imagine me to be, and if that made you feel triumphant, I'm glad to have been instrumental in your happiness. From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Oct 12 20:30:37 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 22:30:37 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes articleon theEmory UTibetans andScience project References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan><5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com>, <525978CF.7020209@xs4all.nl><8A34CA7B-3FD3-4516-AB57-30806F39AD1F@unm.edu>, <5DF9B401E7264E0BBE2EBFFB6BAA2E69@Dan>, <2A2B0F92-9F85-4AE4-930A-AB1B15062E15@unm.edu>, <4E42F5A77F524B85B7432D6182E06204@Dan>, <2632BA2988534435A958F21BF2E86A6F@Dan>, <83BA9BB8F7054911B9EB45193079329F@Dan> Message-ID: > No, I didn't pretend anything. I wrote directly on the theme of the line I > quoted. I actually didn't even notice the subject line, nor did I read the > NY Times article. I had no idea what it was about, aside from what is said > in the subject line. Ok, so while you accuse me of being unable to read, you admit you don't read nor pay attention to context. And then comes the accusation... > You got to make a bunch of gratuitous and wildly inaccurate negative > remarks about the person you wrongly imagine me to be... Mirror-gazing, projection and bogus accusations seem to be your game, not mine. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Oct 12 21:39:29 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 03:39:29 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes articleon theEmory UTibetans andScience project In-Reply-To: References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan><5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com>, <525978CF.7020209@xs4all.nl><8A34CA7B-3FD3-4516-AB57-30806F39AD1F@unm.edu>, <5DF9B401E7264E0BBE2EBFFB6BAA2E69@Dan>, <2A2B0F92-9F85-4AE4-930A-AB1B15062E15@unm.edu>, <4E42F5A77F524B85B7432D6182E06204@Dan>, <2632BA2988534435A958F21BF2E86A6F@Dan>, <83BA9BB8F7054911B9EB45193079329F@Dan> , Message-ID: On Oct 12, 2013, at 20:31, "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > Ok, so while you accuse me of being unable to read, you admit you don't read nor pay attention to context. And then comes the accusation... I admitted that I did not read the NY Times article. I simply deleted it without reading. Erik wrote something that intrigued me. I responded to it without reading the subject line of the message. I meant exactly what I said: I love science, and I love Buddhism, but I don't think anything is to be gained by mixing them. It was a very short statement into which you read all manner of extremely silly subtext. That kind of sloppy hermeneutics may pass for genius at Harvard, but out here in the canyon lands it looks like a pile of cow dung. > Mirror-gazing, projection and bogus accusations seem to be your game, not mine. So you have said many times. As you have also said to various people, simply repeating a vacuous claim does not make it credible. That's true. Heed your own truth. Look, you got caught reading much more into a very simple statement than was there. Nothing to be ashamed of. You made an asinine remark, and you got caught. It happens to everyone. Relax, Danny me boy. You'll have a heart attack if you don't learn to chill a bit. But let's move on to something less personal and of perhaps more interest than all these red herrings. I will rename the thread to something more suitable and explain in a little more detail what I said rather cryptically, and perhaps some other people would like to join in the discussion. From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Oct 12 23:19:10 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 05:19:10 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] The scientific project and the Buddhist project In-Reply-To: <8A34CA7B-3FD3-4516-AB57-30806F39AD1F@unm.edu> References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan> <5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com>,<525978CF.7020209@xs4all.nl> <8A34CA7B-3FD3-4516-AB57-30806F39AD1F@unm.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 12, 2013, at 11:06, I wrote: > I love physics and I love Buddhism. What I can barely stomach is mixing them together into a conceptual mush that fails to be either good science or good Buddhism. I actually have no idea what any of that means. It was just a passing mood I was in. But an academic, even a retired philosopher who never made it to full professor in thirty years of professional life, can hardly admit that he was just being playful. So now I have to make it sound as if I was saying something worth thinking about. If I were any of you, I would stop reading here, because what follows is mostly just gibberish. Having grown up in a family of scientists, at a very early age I acquired the notion that science is interested almost exclusively in the investigation of nature for the sole purpose of discovering what there is and formulating hypotheses about how what there is works and why it is as it is. This investigation, I was taught, is ideally carried out with no contamination from commercial interests, political or social agendas, moral considerations or aesthetic tastes. I was also taught that in practice quite a bit of scientific investigation falls short of that ideal. Now I am well aware that this essentially Peircean notion of what science is all about has been critiqued by many worthy philosophers of science and is considered by some to be hopelessly naive. Nevertheless, I cling to that vision of science and admire all scientific investigation that comes anywhere close to that ideal. Having come to Buddhism as an adult (insofar as any young pup at the age of twenty-three can be considered an adult), I no doubt misinterpreted a great deal of what I encountered, because I interpreted what I encountered on the basis of the prejudices I had acquired through the system of indoctrination that in the United States of America is mistakenly called education. To be more specific, I saw Buddhism as being an entirely different sort of project from the scientific project. Buddhism, as I saw it, is not at all interested in acquiring an understanding of what there is and how it works but is rather interested in reducing eliminable forms of human unhappiness. Unlike science, Buddhism is ideally dealing in morality and in political and social agendas and in aesthetic taste?the very factors that are absent in ideal science. My conclusion from all this was that, because people are multifaceted, it is possible for one person (and yes, I do very much believe in the reality of persons and selves and all those other realities that Buddhists try to dismiss as being "merely conceptual") to be a scientist and a Buddhist, but that it is impossible to be doing good science at the same time that one is practicing good Buddhism. In much the same way that one person can be both a tightrope walker and a Grand Prix racing driver, but that it is impossible to be walking a tightrope at exactly the same time one is driving a racing car, it is impossible for a person to practice science at exactly the same time as one is practicing Buddhism. The practices are incompatible. At any given moment, one must choose which of the two to be doing. Now insofar as a person takes on the completely foolish project of trying to be consistent in all his beliefs and practices, a person may decide that he has to choose between accepting prevailing scientific hypotheses and the very well-thought-out and purposeful dogmas of Buddhism. In my own early life, I foolishly strove for consistency and therefore jettisoned about 95% of the dogmas of Buddhism on the grounds that I deemed them scientifically false, or at least untestable and therefore lacking scientific meaning. And so I jettisoned karma, rebirth, hell realms, celestial realms, and nirv??a for starters and moved on from there to empty the entire medicine cabinet. As more than one person pointed out, many of them right here on buddha-l, I pretty much discarded all of Buddhism, except for the haircut. In my latter years, as I have grown less concerned with intellectual integrity and logical consistency, I have come to see that there is a great deal of value in the aspects of Buddhism I formerly discarded. This is not to say I believe the dogmas I once rejected. I just see a real value in acting as if I didn't not believe in them. Buddhist dogmas are very good at doing precisely what they were designed to do. They make life uninteresting and boring, and that makes one less resentful and afraid of one's inevitable mortality. We are all going to die. But given that life is so insipid and devoid of meaning and utterly lacking in fun anyway, who will miss it? Nothing could be much better as death approaches (as it does with every breath we take) than the studied indifference to life that Buddhist dogmas instill in those who allow themselves to entertain them. We live these days in a world in which the incompatibility of the scientific project and the religious project has led to increasing jettisoning of scientific method rather than of religious dogma. Fundamentalism (which began in the Christian world as a conscious rejection of scientific method and has found its way into every other religious tradition) is growing in cultures all over the world with the result that people build their lives, and dare to try to compel others to build their lives, on ideas that have proven themselves throughout history to be intellectually and morally bankrupt?such as the idea that the creator of the entire universe gave a particular parcel of land to one small group of people to own and rule until the end of time, or the idea that women ought always and forever to be subservient to men, or the idea that homosexuality and abortion are offensive in the eyes of the creator, or the idea that the world can be saved only by a savior with a particular name rather than through the collective efforts of human beings who have learned from their experiences and shared their insights with one another through respectful dialogue. The human race could very well perish because of its attachment to the kind of rigid adherence to religious dogmas and practices that we now call fundamentalism. (Of course, none of this matters. If people wipe themselves out, something else will come along to take our place, and then something else after that until eventually the sun explodes without any consciousness that any of us who are made of star dust ever existed.) When I heard the Dalai Lama say in an address to a small group of scholars and political activists in Montreal in 1993 that he thought the time had come to replace (yes, he used that word) much of Buddhist abhidharma with scientific hypotheses that have not yet been defeated, I was the first to jump to my feet in thunderous applause. A few moments later, a much more reflective voice spoke up quietly and said directly to the Dalai Lama: "Don't be so quick to discard the tradition that has produced a man of your caliber." My reaction in 1993 was to think to myself, "Oh God, another cloying uncritical devotee of His Holiness." Now, twenty years later, I have come to see that the gentle, reflective voice, which belonged to Charles Taylor, was saying something rather important to heed. I fear that the mixing of two incompatible projects?science and Buddhism?is likely to weaken and ultimately undermine both. The only way I can see to keep them both vibrant is to keep them separate, to let each of them be the right tool for the task it was designed to accomplish, and to recognize that it has never been the case and never can be the case that life can ever be reduced to just one legitimate task. Gathering knowledge impartially without any political, commercial, social, moral or aesthetic motivations is important. That is the task for which the tool of scientific method was developed. Learning to switch narratives from those that inflict pain and suffering to those that heal and enable peoples to live peacefully with one another is also important. That is a task for which the tool of Buddhism was developed. Using each tool to do the task for which it was designed strikes me as wise. Choosing only one of the two tools and discarding the other strikes me as foolish. Allowing oneself to think that the two tools are both designed to do the same task also strikes me as foolish, even dangerously so. I do not have confidence that the Dalai Lama fully comprehends what the consequences of replacing fourth-century scholasticism with cognitive science and quantum mechanics are likely to be. That's enough gibberish for one evening. From joy.vriens at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 02:20:13 2013 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 10:20:13 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes article on the Emory U Tibetans and Science project In-Reply-To: <5DF9B401E7264E0BBE2EBFFB6BAA2E69@Dan> References: <7242b18b39406bd949a138432e8c29cb.squirrel@secure.loyno.edu><8AE0BB8E48114BA58A33ED6F9D2E18A8@Dan><5258F05B.6020706@gmail.com>, <525978CF.7020209@xs4all.nl> <8A34CA7B-3FD3-4516-AB57-30806F39AD1F@unm.edu> <5DF9B401E7264E0BBE2EBFFB6BAA2E69@Dan> Message-ID: <525A57BD.5030405@gmail.com> Le 12/10/2013 22:37, Dan Lusthaus a ?crit : > Why assume Tibetans would be incapable of understanding scientific > methods and knowledge on its own terms? Are they culturally retarded? Hi Dan, Perhaps it may be worth paying a visit to Men-Tshee-Khang, an Institute of Tibetan Medecin and Astrology, established by the 13th DL and re-established by the 14th DL, to see how Tibetans catch up with western science and update Tibetan medecal and astrological science with the latest findings? http://www.men-tsee-khang.org/ From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun Oct 13 03:39:47 2013 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (jehms) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 11:39:47 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] The scientific project and the Buddhist project Message-ID: I agree that life consists of different sports played on different fields, but I always thought of the philosopher as the journalist who tries to describe and understand what is happening without taking part in any of those sports. So my conclusion is that the DL needs to read Nietzsche or Husserl, or possible both (and understand them as well) rather than those academic specialists. ErikOn Oct 12, 2013, at 11:06, I wrote: > I love physics and I love Buddhism. What I can barely stomach is mixing them together into a conceptual mush that fails to be either good science or good Buddhism. I actually have no idea what any of that means. It was just a passing mood I was in. But an academic, even a retired philosopher who never made it to full professor in thirty years of professional life, can hardly admit that he was just being playful. So now I have to make it sound as if I was saying something worth thinking about. If I were any of you, I would stop reading here, because what follows is mostly just gibberish. Having grown up in a family of scientists, at a very early age I acquired the notion that science is interested almost exclusively in the investigation of nature for the sole purpose of discovering what there is and formulating hypotheses about how what there is works and why it is as it is. This investigation, I was taught, is ideally carried out with no contamination from commercial interests, political or social agendas, moral considerations or aesthetic tastes. I was also taught that in practice quite a bit of scientific investigation falls short of that ideal. Now I am well aware that this essentially Peircean notion of what science is all about has been critiqued by many worthy philosophers of science and is considered by some to be hopelessly naive. Nevertheless, I cling to that vision of science and admire all scientific investigation that comes anywhere close to that ideal. Having come to Buddhism as an adult (insofar as any young pup at the age of twenty-three can be considered an adult), I no doubt misinterpreted a great deal of what I encountered, because I interpreted what I encountered on the basis of the prejudices I had acquired through the system of indoctrination that in the United States of America is mistakenly called education. To be more specific, I saw Buddhism as being an entirely different sort of project from the scientific project. Buddhism, as I saw it, is not at all interested in acquiring an understanding of what there is and how it works but is rather interested in reducing eliminable forms of human unhappiness. Unlike science, Buddhism is ideally dealing in morality and in political and social agendas and in aesthetic taste?the very factors that are absent in ideal science. My conclusion from all this was that, because people are multifaceted, it is possible for one person (and yes, I do very much believe in the reality of persons and selves and all those other realities that Buddhists try to dismiss as being "merely conceptual") to be a scientist and a Buddhist, but that it is impossible to be doing good science at the same time that one is practicing good Buddhism. In much the same way that one person can be both a tightrope walker and a Grand Prix racing driver, but that it is impossible to be walking a tightrope at exactly the same time one is driving a racing car, it is impossible for a person to practice science at exactly the same time as one is practicing Buddhism. The practices are incompatible. At any given moment, one must choose which of the two to be doing. Now insofar as a person takes on the completely foolish project of trying to be consistent in all his beliefs and practices, a person may decide that he has to choose between accepting prevailing scientific hypotheses and the very well-thought-out and purposeful dogmas of Buddhism. In my own early life, I foolishly strove for consistency and therefore jettisoned about 95% of the dogmas of Buddhism on the grounds that I deemed them scientifically false, or at least untestable and therefore lacking scientific meaning. And so I jettisoned karma, rebirth, hell realms, celestial realms, and nirv??a for starters and moved on from there to empty the entire medicine cabinet. As more than one person pointed out, many of them right here on buddha-l, I pretty much discarded all of Buddhism, except for the haircut. In my latter years, as I have grown less concerned with intellectual integrity and logical consistency, I have come to see that there is a great deal of value in the aspects of Buddhism I formerly discarded. This is not to say I believe the dogmas I once rejected. I just see a real value in acting as if I didn't not believe in them. Buddhist dogmas are very good at doing precisely what they were designed to do. They make life uninteresting and boring, and that makes one less resentful and afraid of one's inevitable mortality. We are all going to die. But given that life is so insipid and devoid of meaning and utterly lacking in fun anyway, who will miss it? Nothing could be much better as death approaches (as it does with every breath we take) than the studied indifference to life that Buddhist dogmas instill in those who allow themselves to entertain them. We live these days in a world in which the incompatibility of the scientific project and the religious project has led to increasing jettisoning of scientific method rather than of religious dogma. Fundamentalism (which began in the Christian world as a conscious rejection of scientific method and has found its way into every other religious tradition) is growing in cultures all over the world with the result that people build their lives, and dare to try to compel others to build their lives, on ideas that have proven themselves throughout history to be intellectually and morally bankrupt?such as the idea that the creator of the entire universe gave a particular parcel of land to one small group of people to own and rule until the end of time, or the idea that women ought always and forever to be subservient to men, or the idea that homosexuality and abortion are offensive in the eyes of the creator, or the idea that the world can be saved only by a savior with a particular name rather than through the collective efforts of human beings who have learned from their experiences and shared their insights with one another through respectful dialogue. The human race could very well perish because of its attachment to the kind of rigid adherence to religious dogmas and practices that we now call fundamentalism. (Of course, none of this matters. If people wipe themselves out, something else will come along to take our place, and then something else after that until eventually the sun explodes without any consciousness that any of us who are made of star dust ever existed.) When I heard the Dalai Lama say in an address to a small group of scholars and political activists in Montreal in 1993 that he thought the time had come to replace (yes, he used that word) much of Buddhist abhidharma with scientific hypotheses that have not yet been defeated, I was the first to jump to my feet in thunderous applause. A few moments later, a much more reflective voice spoke up quietly and said directly to the Dalai Lama: "Don't be so quick to discard the tradition that has produced a man of your caliber." My reaction in 1993 was to think to myself, "Oh God, another cloying uncritical devotee of His Holiness." Now, twenty years later, I have come to see that the gentle, reflective voice, which belonged to Charles Taylor, was saying something rather important to heed. I fear that the mixing of two incompatible projects?science and Buddhism?is likely to weaken and ultimately undermine both. The only way I can see to keep them both vibrant is to keep them separate, to let each of them be the right tool for the task it was designed to accomplish, and to recognize that it has never been the case and never can be the case that life can ever be reduced to just one legitimate task. Gathering knowledge impartially without any political, commercial, social, moral or aesthetic motivations is important. That is the task for which the tool of scientific method was developed. Learning to switch narratives from those that inflict pain and suffering to those that heal and enable peoples to live peacefully with one another is also important. That is a task for which the tool of Buddhism was developed. Using each tool to do the task for which it was designed strikes me as wise. Choosing only one of the two tools and discarding the other strikes me as foolish. Allowing oneself to think that the two tools are both designed to do the same task also strikes me as foolish, even dangerously so. I do not have confidence that the Dalai Lama fully comprehends what the consequences of replacing fourth-century scholasticism with cognitive science and quantum mechanics are likely to be. That's enough gibberish for one evening. ?? _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From ugg-5 at spro.net Sun Oct 13 11:32:59 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 11:32:59 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] The scientific project and the Buddhist project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> There have been developments in cognitive sciences and philosophy that improve on anything before them. I'd leave out Nietzsche, because of his literary proclivities, as potential sources of confusion to anyone not well-acquainted with European thought patterns. Husserl might be an excellent place to start, for the DL or other Tibetans who want to become knowledgeable about how science/scientific thought patterns are what they are. However, considering Tibetan and other persons historically or contemporarily confused about science, philosophy, and the rest, I strongly recommend as starting reads the following two discussions by the same prodigiously smart author: Barbara Herrnstein Smith. _Natural Reflections : Human Cognition as the Nexus of Science and Religion_. Yale UP, 2009. _______________. _Scandalous Knowledge : Science, Truth and the Human._ Duke UP, 2005. These two studies of hers bring these issues up to date in, for a change, clear writing and thinking. Joanna On Behalf Of jehms Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 3:40 AM To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] The scientific project and the Buddhist project I agree that life consists of different sports played on different fields, but I always thought of the philosopher as the journalist who tries to describe and understand what is happening without taking part in any of those sports. So my conclusion is that the DL needs to read Nietzsche or Husserl, or possible both (and understand them as well) rather than those academic specialists. ErikOn Oct 12, 2013, at 11:06, I wrote: > I love physics and I love Buddhism. What I can barely stomach is mixing them together into a conceptual mush that fails to be either good science or good Buddhism. I actually have no idea what any of that means. It was just a passing mood I was in. But an academic, even a retired philosopher who never made it to full professor in thirty years of professional life, can hardly admit that he was just being playful. So now I have to make it sound as if I was saying something worth thinking about. If I were any of you, I would stop reading here, because what follows is mostly just gibberish. Having grown up in a family of scientists, at a very early age I acquired the notion that science is interested almost exclusively in the investigation of nature for the sole purpose of discovering what there is and formulating hypotheses about how what there is works and why it is as it is. This investigation, I was taught, is ideally carried out with no contamination from commercial interests, political or social agendas, moral considerations or aesthetic tastes. I was also taught that in practice quite a bit of scientific investigation falls short of that ideal. Now I am well aware that this essentially Peircean notion of what science is all about has been critiqued by many worthy philosophers of science and is considered by some to be hopelessly naive. Nevertheless, I cling to that vision of science and admire all scientific investigation that comes anywhere close to that ideal. Having come to Buddhism as an adult (insofar as any young pup at the age of twenty-three can be considered an adult), I no doubt misinterpreted a great deal of what I encountered, because I interpreted what I encountered on the basis of the prejudices I had acquired through the system of indoctrination that in the United States of America is mistakenly called education. To be more specific, I saw Buddhism as being an entirely different sort of project from the scientific project. Buddhism, as I saw it, is not at all interested in acquiring an understanding of what there is and how it works but is rather interested in reducing eliminable forms of human unhappiness. Unlike science, Buddhism is ideally dealing in morality and in political and social agendas and in aesthetic taste?the very factors that are absent in ideal science. My conclusion from all this was that, because people are multifaceted, it is possible for one person (and yes, I do very much believe in the reality of persons and selves and all those other realities that Buddhists try to dismiss as being "merely conceptual") to be a scientist and a Buddhist, but that it is impossible to be doing good science at the same time that one is practicing good Buddhism. In much the same way that one person can be both a tightrope walker and a Grand Prix racing driver, but that it is impossible to be walking a tightrope at exactly the same time one is driving a racing car, it is impossible for a person to practice science at exactly the same time as one is practicing Buddhism. The practices are incompatible. At any given moment, one must choose which of the two to be doing. Now insofar as a person takes on the completely foolish project of trying to be consistent in all his beliefs and practices, a person may decide that he has to choose between accepting prevailing scientific hypotheses and the very well-thought-out and purposeful dogmas of Buddhism. In my own early life, I foolishly strove for consistency and therefore jettisoned about 95% of the dogmas of Buddhism on the grounds that I deemed them scientifically false, or at least untestable and therefore lacking scientific meaning. And so I jettisoned karma, rebirth, hell realms, celestial realms, and nirv??a for starters and moved on from there to empty the entire medicine cabinet. As more than one person pointed out, many of them right here on buddha-l, I pretty much discarded all of Buddhism, except for the haircut. In my latter years, as I have grown less concerned with intellectual integrity and logical consistency, I have come to see that there is a great deal of value in the aspects of Buddhism I formerly discarded. This is not to say I believe the dogmas I once rejected. I just see a real value in acting as if I didn't not believe in them. Buddhist dogmas are very good at doing precisely what they were designed to do. They make life uninteresting and boring, and that makes one less resentful and afraid of one's inevitable mortality. We are all going to die. But given that life is so insipid and devoid of meaning and utterly lacking in fun anyway, who will miss it? Nothing could be much better as death approaches (as it does with every breath we take) than the studied indifference to life that Buddhist dogmas instill in those who allow themselves to entertain them. We live these days in a world in which the incompatibility of the scientific project and the religious project has led to increasing jettisoning of scientific method rather than of religious dogma. Fundamentalism (which began in the Christian world as a conscious rejection of scientific method and has found its way into every other religious tradition) is growing in cultures all over the world with the result that people build their lives, and dare to try to compel others to build their lives, on ideas that have proven themselves throughout history to be intellectually and morally bankrupt?such as the idea that the creator of the entire universe gave a particular parcel of land to one small group of people to own and rule until the end of time, or the idea that women ought always and forever to be subservient to men, or the idea that homosexuality and abortion are offensive in the eyes of the creator, or the idea that the world can be saved only by a savior with a particular name rather than through the collective efforts of human beings who have learned from their experiences and shared their insights with one another through respectful dialogue. The human race could very well perish because of its attachment to the kind of rigid adherence to religious dogmas and practices that we now call fundamentalism. (Of course, none of this matters. If people wipe themselves out, something else will come along to take our place, and then something else after that until eventually the sun explodes without any consciousness that any of us who are made of star dust ever existed.) When I heard the Dalai Lama say in an address to a small group of scholars and political activists in Montreal in 1993 that he thought the time had come to replace (yes, he used that word) much of Buddhist abhidharma with scientific hypotheses that have not yet been defeated, I was the first to jump to my feet in thunderous applause. A few moments later, a much more reflective voice spoke up quietly and said directly to the Dalai Lama: "Don't be so quick to discard the tradition that has produced a man of your caliber." My reaction in 1993 was to think to myself, "Oh God, another cloying uncritical devotee of His Holiness." Now, twenty years later, I have come to see that the gentle, reflective voice, which belonged to Charles Taylor, was saying something rather important to heed. I fear that the mixing of two incompatible projects?science and Buddhism?is likely to weaken and ultimately undermine both. The only way I can see to keep them both vibrant is to keep them separate, to let each of them be the right tool for the task it was designed to accomplish, and to recognize that it has never been the case and never can be the case that life can ever be reduced to just one legitimate task. Gathering knowledge impartially without any political, commercial, social, moral or aesthetic motivations is important. That is the task for which the tool of scientific method was developed. Learning to switch narratives from those that inflict pain and suffering to those that heal and enable peoples to live peacefully with one another is also important. That is a task for which the tool of Buddhism was developed. Using each tool to do the task for which it was designed strikes me as wise. Choosing only one of the two tools and discarding the other strikes me as foolish. Allowing oneself to think that the two tools are both designed to do the same task also strikes me as foolish, even dangerously so. I do not have confidence that the Dalai Lama fully comprehends what the consequences of replacing fourth-century scholasticism with cognitive science and quantum mechanics are likely to be. That's enough gibberish for one evening. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From ugg-5 at spro.net Sun Oct 13 11:50:55 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 11:50:55 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] The scientific project and the Buddhist project References: Message-ID: <003201cec83c$c4b9ffc0$4e2dff40$@spro.net> Sorry all, I made a misleading typo in the first title I poste. It should read: ...Human Cognition at [not as ] the Nexus of... Joanna -----Original Message----- From: Jo [mailto:ugg-5 at spro.net] Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 11:33 AM To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Subject: RE: [Buddha-l] The scientific project and the Buddhist project From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Oct 13 12:05:58 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 18:05:58 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] The scientific project and the Buddhist project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562C0A35-C426-4622-81B4-5B530F566078@unm.edu> On Oct 13, 2013, at 03:39 , jehms wrote: > I agree that life consists of different sports played on different fields, but I always thought of the philosopher as the journalist who tries to describe and understand what is happening without taking part in any of those sports. Is it possible not to take part in any of those sports? > So my conclusion is that the DL needs to read Nietzsche or Husserl, or possible both (and understand them as well) rather than those academic specialists. I just gave away all by books by Husserl. I tried dozens of times to read them but finally came to the conclusion that I'm just too dull-witted to understand anything he says. As for Nietzsche, there are few people I love to read more, although I read him in short doses very far apart for fear that his insanity might be contagious. Richard From horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca Sun Oct 13 12:44:39 2013 From: horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca (Gad Horowitz) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 14:44:39 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] The scientific project and the Buddhist project In-Reply-To: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> Message-ID: <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> Dan Lusthaus has written a great piece relating Husserl and Buddhism Sent from my iPad On 2013-10-13, at 1:32 PM, "Jo" wrote: > There have been developments in cognitive sciences and philosophy that improve on anything before them. I'd leave out Nietzsche, because of his literary proclivities, as potential sources of confusion to anyone not well-acquainted with European thought patterns. Husserl might be an excellent place to start, for the DL or other Tibetans who want to become knowledgeable about how science/scientific thought patterns are what they are. However, considering Tibetan and other persons historically or contemporarily confused about science, philosophy, and the rest, I strongly recommend as starting reads the following two discussions by the same prodigiously smart author: > > Barbara Herrnstein Smith. _Natural Reflections : Human Cognition as the Nexus of Science and Religion_. Yale UP, 2009. > _______________. _Scandalous Knowledge : Science, Truth and the Human._ Duke UP, 2005. > These two studies of hers bring these issues up to date in, for a change, clear writing and thinking. > > Joanna > > > > On Behalf Of jehms > Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 3:40 AM > To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] The scientific project and the Buddhist project > > I agree that life consists of different sports played on different fields, but I always thought of the philosopher as the journalist who tries to describe and understand what is happening without taking part in any of those sports. So my conclusion is that the DL needs to read Nietzsche or Husserl, or possible both (and understand them as well) rather than those academic specialists. > > ErikOn Oct 12, 2013, at 11:06, I wrote: > >> I love physics and I love Buddhism. What I can barely stomach is mixing them together into a conceptual mush that fails to be either good science or good Buddhism. > > I actually have no idea what any of that means. It was just a passing mood I was in. But an academic, even a retired philosopher who never made it to full professor in thirty years of professional life, can hardly admit that he was just being playful. So now I have to make it sound as if I was saying something worth thinking about. If I were any of you, I would stop reading here, because what follows is mostly just gibberish. > > Having grown up in a family of scientists, at a very early age I acquired the notion that science is interested almost exclusively in the investigation of nature for the sole purpose of discovering what there is and formulating hypotheses about how what there is works and why it is as it is. This investigation, I was taught, is ideally carried out with no contamination from commercial interests, political or social agendas, moral considerations or aesthetic tastes. I was also taught that in practice quite a bit of scientific investigation falls short of that ideal. Now I am well aware that this essentially Peircean notion of what science is all about has been critiqued by many worthy philosophers of science and is considered by some to be hopelessly naive. Nevertheless, I cling to that vision of science and admire all scientific investigation that comes anywhere close to that ideal. > > Having come to Buddhism as an adult (insofar as any young pup at the age of twenty-three can be considered an adult), I no doubt misinterpreted a great deal of what I encountered, because I interpreted what I encountered on the basis of the prejudices I had acquired through the system of indoctrination that in the United States of America is mistakenly called education. To be more specific, I saw Buddhism as being an entirely different sort of project from the scientific project. Buddhism, as I saw it, is not at all interested in acquiring an understanding of what there is and how it works but is rather interested in reducing eliminable forms of human unhappiness. Unlike science, Buddhism is ideally dealing in morality and in political and social agendas and in aesthetic taste?the very factors that are absent in ideal science. > > My conclusion from all this was that, because people are multifaceted, it is possible for one person (and yes, I do very much believe in the reality of persons and selves and all those other realities that Buddhists try to dismiss as being "merely conceptual") to be a scientist and a Buddhist, but that it is impossible to be doing good science at the same time that one is practicing good Buddhism. In much the same way that one person can be both a tightrope walker and a Grand Prix racing driver, but that it is impossible to be walking a tightrope at exactly the same time one is driving a racing car, it is impossible for a person to practice science at exactly the same time as one is practicing Buddhism. The practices are incompatible. At any given moment, one must choose which of the two to be doing. > > Now insofar as a person takes on the completely foolish project of trying to be consistent in all his beliefs and practices, a person may decide that he has to choose between accepting prevailing scientific hypotheses and the very well-thought-out and purposeful dogmas of Buddhism. In my own early life, I foolishly strove for consistency and therefore jettisoned about 95% of the dogmas of Buddhism on the grounds that I deemed them scientifically false, or at least untestable and therefore lacking scientific meaning. And so I jettisoned karma, rebirth, hell realms, celestial realms, and nirv??a for starters and moved on from there to empty the entire medicine cabinet. As more than one person pointed out, many of them right here on buddha-l, I pretty much discarded all of Buddhism, except for the haircut. > > In my latter years, as I have grown less concerned with intellectual integrity and logical consistency, I have come to see that there is a great deal of value in the aspects of Buddhism I formerly discarded. This is not to say I believe the dogmas I once rejected. I just see a real value in acting as if I didn't not believe in them. Buddhist dogmas are very good at doing precisely what they were designed to do. They make life uninteresting and boring, and that makes one less resentful and afraid of one's inevitable mortality. We are all going to die. But given that life is so insipid and devoid of meaning and utterly lacking in fun anyway, who will miss it? Nothing could be much better as death approaches (as it does with every breath we take) than the studied indifference to life that Buddhist dogmas instill in those who allow themselves to entertain them. > > We live these days in a world in which the incompatibility of the scientific project and the religious project has led to increasing jettisoning of scientific method rather than of religious dogma. Fundamentalism (which began in the Christian world as a conscious rejection of scientific method and has found its way into every other religious tradition) is growing in cultures all over the world with the result that people build their lives, and dare to try to compel others to build their lives, on ideas that have proven themselves throughout history to be intellectually and morally bankrupt?such as the idea that the creator of the entire universe gave a particular parcel of land to one small group of people to own and rule until the end of time, or the idea that women ought always and forever to be subservient to men, or the idea that homosexuality and abortion are offensive in the eyes of the creator, or the idea that the world can be saved only by a savior with a particular name rather than through the collective efforts of human beings who have learned from their experiences and shared their insights with one another through respectful dialogue. The human race could very well perish because of its attachment to the kind of rigid adherence to religious dogmas and practices that we now call fundamentalism. (Of course, none of this matters. If people wipe themselves out, something else will come along to take our place, and then something else after that until eventually the sun explodes without any consciousness that any of us who are made of star dust ever existed.) > > When I heard the Dalai Lama say in an address to a small group of scholars and political activists in Montreal in 1993 that he thought the time had come to replace (yes, he used that word) much of Buddhist abhidharma with scientific hypotheses that have not yet been defeated, I was the first to jump to my feet in thunderous applause. A few moments later, a much more reflective voice spoke up quietly and said directly to the Dalai Lama: "Don't be so quick to discard the tradition that has produced a man of your caliber." My reaction in 1993 was to think to myself, "Oh God, another cloying uncritical devotee of His Holiness." Now, twenty years later, I have come to see that the gentle, reflective voice, which belonged to Charles Taylor, was saying something rather important to heed. > > I fear that the mixing of two incompatible projects?science and Buddhism?is likely to weaken and ultimately undermine both. The only way I can see to keep them both vibrant is to keep them separate, to let each of them be the right tool for the task it was designed to accomplish, and to recognize that it has never been the case and never can be the case that life can ever be reduced to just one legitimate task. Gathering knowledge impartially without any political, commercial, social, moral or aesthetic motivations is important. That is the task for which the tool of scientific method was developed. Learning to switch narratives from those that inflict pain and suffering to those that heal and enable peoples to live peacefully with one another is also important. That is a task for which the tool of Buddhism was developed. Using each tool to do the task for which it was designed strikes me as wise. Choosing only one of the two tools and discarding the other strikes me as foolish. Allowing oneself to think that the two tools are both designed to do the same task also strikes me as foolish, even dangerously so. I do not have confidence that the Dalai Lama fully comprehends what the consequences of replacing fourth-century scholasticism with cognitive science and quantum mechanics are likely to be. > > That's enough gibberish for one evening. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun Oct 13 13:25:00 2013 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 21:25:00 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] The scientific project and the Buddhist project In-Reply-To: <562C0A35-C426-4622-81B4-5B530F566078@unm.edu> References: <562C0A35-C426-4622-81B4-5B530F566078@unm.edu> Message-ID: <525AF38C.20100@xs4all.nl> Richard Hayes schreef op 13-10-2013 20:05: > On Oct 13, 2013, at 03:39 , jehms wrote: > >> I agree that life consists of different sports played on different fields, but I always thought of the philosopher as the journalist who tries to describe and understand what is happening without taking part in any of those sports. > Is it possible not to take part in any of those sports? OK, if you still live you will be playing on several fields at a time. In this case I really meant science as a kind of Olympics of 'the will to know' as Nietzsche called it. >> So my conclusion is that the DL needs to read Nietzsche or Husserl, or possible both (and understand them as well) rather than those academic specialists. > I just gave away all by books by Husserl. I tried dozens of times to read them but finally came to the conclusion that I'm just too dull-witted to understand anything he says. As for Nietzsche, there are few people I love to read more, although I read him in short doses very far apart for fear that his insanity might be contagious. Nietzsche himself advised to take long walks in between reading his texts. About Husserl: some of his writings are pretty tedious indeed, but his 'Crisis' I consider a good read as well as his Origin of Mathematics. I suppose however that Jan Patocka is a better choice for Buddhists because of his asubjective phenomenology. Erik From ugg-5 at spro.net Sun Oct 13 13:56:30 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 13:56:30 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] The scientific project and the Buddhist project In-Reply-To: <525AF38C.20100@xs4all.nl> References: <562C0A35-C426-4622-81B4-5B530F566078@unm.edu> <525AF38C.20100@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <000601cec84e$4ffba820$eff2f860$@spro.net> All well and good. However, I suggest that some of y'all read one or two of those books by B. Smith. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Erik Hoogcarspel Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 1:25 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] The scientific project and the Buddhist project Richard Hayes schreef op 13-10-2013 20:05: > On Oct 13, 2013, at 03:39 , jehms wrote: > >> I agree that life consists of different sports played on different fields, but I always thought of the philosopher as the journalist who tries to describe and understand what is happening without taking part in any of those sports. > Is it possible not to take part in any of those sports? OK, if you still live you will be playing on several fields at a time. In this case I really meant science as a kind of Olympics of 'the will to know' as Nietzsche called it. >> So my conclusion is that the DL needs to read Nietzsche or Husserl, or possible both (and understand them as well) rather than those academic specialists. > I just gave away all by books by Husserl. I tried dozens of times to read them but finally came to the conclusion that I'm just too dull-witted to understand anything he says. As for Nietzsche, there are few people I love to read more, although I read him in short doses very far apart for fear that his insanity might be contagious. Nietzsche himself advised to take long walks in between reading his texts. About Husserl: some of his writings are pretty tedious indeed, but his 'Crisis' I consider a good read as well as his Origin of Mathematics. I suppose however that Jan Patocka is a better choice for Buddhists because of his asubjective phenomenology. Erik _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Oct 13 16:32:07 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 22:32:07 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] The scientific project and the Buddhist project In-Reply-To: <525AF38C.20100@xs4all.nl> References: <562C0A35-C426-4622-81B4-5B530F566078@unm.edu>, <525AF38C.20100@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20758331-8EC6-4A25-9066-B0F65146EFCB@unm.edu> On Oct 13, 2013, at 13:26, "Erik Hoogcarspel" wrote: > About Husserl: some of his writings are pretty tedious indeed, but his 'Crisis' I consider a good read Yes, I agree. One gets the impression he wrote that before he discovered obscurity. From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Oct 13 16:39:29 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 22:39:29 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] The scientific project and the Buddhist project In-Reply-To: <000601cec84e$4ffba820$eff2f860$@spro.net> References: <562C0A35-C426-4622-81B4-5B530F566078@unm.edu> <525AF38C.20100@xs4all.nl>,<000601cec84e$4ffba820$eff2f860$@spro.net> Message-ID: On Oct 13, 2013, at 13:57, "Jo" wrote: > However, I suggest that some of y'all read one or two of > those books by B. Smith. I met her at one of the East-West conferences once. She was very witty and insightful. I loved spending time with her, perhaps because she said hardly a single thing that I agreed with. At that time (early 1990s) she was much too self-consciously postmodern feminist in her views about science for my tastes. My guess is that both she and I have mellowed a bit since then. From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Oct 13 16:45:31 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 22:45:31 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] The scientific project and the Buddhist project In-Reply-To: <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net>, <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> On Oct 13, 2013, at 12:46, "Gad Horowitz" wrote: > Dan Lusthaus has written a great piece relating Husserl and Buddhism I have tried reading Lusthaus's work relating Husserl and Buddhism as many times as I have tried to read Husserl. Like Husserl himself, Lusthaus on Husserl is way over my head. I am much too simple-minded to read such impenetrable material. From c_castell at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 01:21:40 2013 From: c_castell at yahoo.com (Catalina) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 00:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] The scientific project and the Buddhist project In-Reply-To: <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net>, <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> Message-ID: <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> my 2 cents on this: I'm a scientist, have always been, by that I mean "my way of thinking is pretty much the way scientists do science" since I remember, I didn't learn that at the University or school. I studied Science as well and have worked as a researcher. I got interested in Buddhism at the beginning because I found "you have to experience things by yourself to actually believe them" very "scientist" as a no dogma way. To relate mind "transformation" -or whatever? people want to call that- to meditation or talk about how quantum physics and Buddhism relate is not an interesting subject to me, may distract me a little as intellectual small talking but not more. Some time ago -while cooking- I asked another scientist what she believed in...she looked at me as I was crazy and said: -nothing of course! I'm a scientist!!! that made me laugh....a little....I'm a scientist as well- I said- and I believe in plenty of different things, intuition and asking yourself questions is the basis of a scientific approach- and also scientists know that? plenty of things "may be" true until you prove the opposite anyway and that whatever it is as it is is already that way independently of what we think about it. Cheers, Catalina (cloudy in France this morning, I had to light the lamps even if it is 11 in the morning) On Monday, October 14, 2013 12:47 AM, Richard Hayes wrote: On Oct 13, 2013, at 12:46, "Gad Horowitz" wrote: > Dan Lusthaus has written a great piece relating Husserl and Buddhism I have tried reading Lusthaus's work relating Husserl and Buddhism as many times as I have tried to read Husserl. Like Husserl himself, Lusthaus on Husserl is way over my head. I am much too simple-minded to read such impenetrable material. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From ugg-5 at spro.net Mon Oct 14 10:29:21 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 10:29:21 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] The scientific project and the Buddhist project In-Reply-To: <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net>, <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> I agree with your views--well-said. JK On Behalf Of Catalina Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 1:22 AM my 2 cents on this: I'm a scientist, have always been, by that I mean "my way of thinking is pretty much the way scientists do science" since I remember, I didn't learn that at the University or school. I studied Science as well and have worked as a researcher. I got interested in Buddhism at the beginning because I found "you have to experience things by yourself to actually believe them" very "scientist" as a no dogma way. To relate mind "transformation" -or whatever? people want to call that- to meditation or talk about how quantum physics and Buddhism relate is not an interesting subject to me, may distract me a little as intellectual small talking but not more. Some time ago -while cooking- I asked another scientist what she believed in...she looked at me as I was crazy and said: -nothing of course! I'm a scientist!!! that made me laugh....a little....I'm a scientist as well- I said- and I believe in plenty of different things, intuition and asking yourself questions is the basis of a scientific approach- and also scientists know that? plenty of things "may be" true until you prove the opposite anyway and that whatever it is as it is is already that way independently of what we think about it. Cheers, Catalina (cloudy in France this morning, I had to light the lamps even if it is 11 in the morning) From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Oct 16 21:24:58 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 23:24:58 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] book on Tibetan 'discipline' References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net>, <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu><1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> Message-ID: <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> Has anyone seen/read this book? If so, any thoughts, reactions, comments? Dan http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520269477 Discipline and Debate The Language of Violence in a Tibetan Buddhist Monastery Michael Lempert (Author) Available worldwide Paperback, 238 pages ISBN: 9780520269477 April 2012 $28.95, ?19.95 The Dalai Lama has represented Buddhism as a religion of non-violence, compassion, and world peace, but this does not reflect how monks learn their vocation. This book shows how monasteries use harsh methods to make monks of men, and how this tradition is changing as modernist reformers-like the Dalai Lama-adopt liberal and democratic ideals, such as natural rights and individual autonomy. In the first in-depth account of disciplinary practices at a Tibetan monastery in India, Michael Lempert looks closely at everyday education rites-from debate to reprimand and corporal punishment. His analysis explores how the idioms of violence inscribed in these socialization rites help produce educated, moral persons but in ways that trouble Tibetans who aspire to modernity. Bringing the study of language and social interaction to our understanding of Buddhism for the first time, Lempert shows and why liberal ideals are being acted out by monks in India, offering a provocative alternative view of liberalism as a globalizing discourse. Michael Lempert is Assistant Professor of Anthropology at the University of Michigan. Introduction: Liberal Sympathies Part I. Debate 1. Dissensus by Design 2. Debate as a Rite of Institution 3. Debate as a Diasporic Pedagogy Part II. Discipline 4. Public Reprimand Is Serious Theatre 5. Affected Signs, Sincere Subjects Conclusion: The Liberal Subject, in Pieces "Discipline and Debate offers both a vivid picture and a painstaking analysis of social and linguistic practices of traditional and post-traditional monastic education among Tibetans living in India." -Guy Newland, author of Introduction to Emptiness: As Taught in Tsong-kha-pa's Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path "Ethnographically rich, interpretively acute and generative, and always lucid and compelling, Discipline and Debate is a singular contribution. Lempert moves with insight from detailed examinations of the language of monastic debate to broad gauge considerations of diasporic Tibetan Buddhist entanglements within its contemporary exilic world." -Don Brenneis, Department of Anthropology, University of California, Santa Cruz "This extraordinary study sets a new standard for the study of the links between culture and social interaction. No one who cares about the study of religion, language or modernity-or who cares about the place of interaction in cultural theory-should miss this book." -Joel Robbins, author of Becoming Sinners: Christianity and Moral Torment in a Papua New Guinea Society It won the Clifford Geertz Prize in the Anthropology of Religion. His University of Michigan page http://www.lsa.umich.edu/anthro/people/faculty/ci.lempertmichael_ci.detail From sallymcara at gmail.com Wed Oct 16 21:32:58 2013 From: sallymcara at gmail.com (Sally McAra) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 16:32:58 +1300 Subject: [Buddha-l] book on Tibetan 'discipline' In-Reply-To: <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> Message-ID: Thanks Dan, I hadn't seen this -- it sounds fascinating. On 17 October 2013 16:24, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Has anyone seen/read this book? If so, any thoughts, reactions, comments? > Dan > > http://www.ucpress.edu/book.**php?isbn=9780520269477 > > Discipline and Debate > The Language of Violence in a Tibetan Buddhist Monastery > Michael Lempert (Author) > Available worldwide > Paperback, 238 pages > ISBN: 9780520269477 > April 2012 > $28.95, ?19.95 > > The Dalai Lama has represented Buddhism as a religion of non-violence, > compassion, and world peace, but this does not reflect how monks learn > their vocation. This book shows how monasteries use harsh methods to make > monks of men, and how this tradition is changing as modernist > reformers-like the Dalai Lama-adopt liberal and democratic ideals, such as > natural rights and individual autonomy. In the first in-depth account of > disciplinary practices at a Tibetan monastery in India, Michael Lempert > looks closely at everyday education rites-from debate to reprimand and > corporal punishment. His analysis explores how the idioms of violence > inscribed in these socialization rites help produce educated, moral persons > but in ways that trouble Tibetans who aspire to modernity. Bringing the > study of language and social interaction to our understanding of Buddhism > for the first time, Lempert shows and why liberal ideals are being acted > out by monks in India, offering a provocative alternative view of > liberalism as a globalizing discourse. > > Michael Lempert is Assistant Professor of Anthropology at the University > of Michigan. > > Introduction: Liberal Sympathies > > Part I. Debate > 1. Dissensus by Design > 2. Debate as a Rite of Institution > 3. Debate as a Diasporic Pedagogy > > Part II. Discipline > 4. Public Reprimand Is Serious Theatre > 5. Affected Signs, Sincere Subjects > Conclusion: The Liberal Subject, in Pieces > > "Discipline and Debate offers both a vivid picture and a painstaking > analysis of social and linguistic practices of traditional and > post-traditional monastic education among Tibetans living in India." -Guy > Newland, author of Introduction to Emptiness: As Taught in Tsong-kha-pa's > Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path > > "Ethnographically rich, interpretively acute and generative, and always > lucid and compelling, Discipline and Debate is a singular contribution. > Lempert moves with insight from detailed examinations of the language of > monastic debate to broad gauge considerations of diasporic Tibetan Buddhist > entanglements within its contemporary exilic world." -Don Brenneis, > Department of Anthropology, University of California, Santa Cruz > > "This extraordinary study sets a new standard for the study of the links > between culture and social interaction. No one who cares about the study of > religion, language or modernity-or who cares about the place of interaction > in cultural theory-should miss this book." -Joel Robbins, author of > Becoming Sinners: Christianity and Moral Torment in a Papua New Guinea > Society > > It won the Clifford Geertz Prize in the Anthropology of Religion. > > His University of Michigan page > http://www.lsa.umich.edu/**anthro/people/faculty/ci.** > lempertmichael_ci.detail > > ______________________________**_________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/**mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- Sally From ugg-5 at spro.net Wed Oct 16 23:41:00 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 23:41:00 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: [ACSAA] The International Dunhuang Project makes it into the New Yorker In-Reply-To: <337896FC0734CF4FB1A5DB518C38CE96E8030B69@EM3A.ad.ucla.edu> References: <337896FC0734CF4FB1A5DB518C38CE96E8030B69@EM3A.ad.ucla.edu> Message-ID: <006301cecafb$781865f0$684931d0$@spro.net> X-posted from ACSAA. Short interesting article. JK Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 7:58 PM Subject: [ACSAA] The International Dunhuang Project makes it into the New Yorker See: "A Secret Library, Digitally Excavated": http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/10/dunhuang-china-manusc ripts-secret-library-digital-archive.html Best wishes, Janine J. Henri Architecture, Design, and Digital Services Librarian UCLA Arts Library 1400 Public Affairs Library Box 959312 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1392 Tel: 310-206-4587 Fax: 310-825-1303 jhenri at library.ucla.edu -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Untitled attachment 00027.txt URL: From stroble at hawaii.edu Thu Oct 17 01:21:26 2013 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (James A Stroble) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 21:21:26 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] book on Tibetan 'discipline' In-Reply-To: <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> Message-ID: <20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza> On Wed, 16 Oct 2013 23:24:58 -0400 "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > Has anyone seen/read this book? If so, any thoughts, reactions, > comments? Dan > Looks interesting, thanks, Dan. But I have to wonder, is it not enough that we have an alleged Buddhist just war doctrine, so now do we need further allegations that monks are violated? Maybe the Tibetan monasteries could adopt that "everyone gets a trophy" of American children's soccer? And on the other hand, this does relate to our debate a year or so ago about Vajrayani and the splitting of heads. Maybe the violence of debate is the most intimate form of violence, since you have to get into the head of your opponent, and make them admit to their self that they are wrong (with the concommitant risk that same could happen to you.) So I will check this out, lest I suffer or inflict violence on other rational beings. -- Yours, James Andy Stroble Leeward Community College From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Oct 17 04:05:37 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 06:05:37 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] book on Tibetan 'discipline' References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net><047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca><664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu><1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net><215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> <20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza> Message-ID: <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> > so now do we > need further allegations that monks are violated? The book apparently deals with two Tibetan institutions in India, one following the traditional, brutal methods, and the other trying to move to a more western "liberal" approach, but finding it difficult. As for this being about "allegations," I passed the book notice on to a well known Tibetanist colleague who said he hadn't seen the book, but " it looks interesting. I know several people who were educated in the Geluk system who all remarked on the harshness of discipline, the use of physical punishments, etc. It's probably a lot better than in Tibet, but still pretty medieval." So, not "allegations." Disclosure might be a better word (less hysterical than "expose"). The larger underlying issue is the gap between the imaginal "Buddhism(s)" that we in the west have constructed from our own needs and proclivities, often with complicity from our asian counterparts, and the actual Buddhism(s), past and present. The "facts" are slowly emerging, and some of them are painful, especially for those who cling to the fantasies, and prefer their fantasies to the realities. That attitude, however, is nonBuddhist; ignorance and delusion are the root problem. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Oct 17 06:51:25 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 12:51:25 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] book on Tibetan 'discipline' In-Reply-To: <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net><047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca><664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu><1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net><215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> <20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza>, <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> Message-ID: <161BF6AD-89AC-4E85-826E-73B9B45121FC@unm.edu> On Oct 17, 2013, at 4:07, "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > The "facts" are slowly emerging, and some of them are painful, especially for those who cling to the fantasies, and prefer their fantasies to the realities. It might also be worth noting that there are people who don't much care how Buddhism has been in the past but have a pretty clear idea how they would like it to be now and in the future. Such folks may be not so much clinging to fantasies as holding a vision. Richard From richard.nance at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 07:09:23 2013 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 09:09:23 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] book on Tibetan 'discipline' In-Reply-To: <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> <20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza> <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> Message-ID: Hi all, Yes, I've read the book. It's quite good. Lempert was a student of Asif Agha at Penn, and Agha was a student of Michael Silverstein at Chicago. Ordinarily, I wouldn't place so much emphasis on tracing the scholarly lineage of a particular academic text, but potential readers should be warned that Lempert's book is very much steeped in the idiom of contemporary anthropology and, more specifically, within the sub-field of contemporary linguistic anthropology (or "LingAnth"). Silverstein is a founder of the subfield, and is undeniably brilliant -- to speak from personal experience, his courses at Chicago are at times shockingly virtuosic -- but his prose style is, well, an acquired taste. Yes, let's say that. An acquired taste -- at least for me. His paper "Metapragmatic Discourse and Metapragmatic Function," which you may be able to peruse here: http://ebooks.cambridge.org/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9780511621031&cid=CBO9780511621031A010, still stands as one of the most difficult texts in English that I've ever given myself the task of working through. A simpler -- and at times very entertaining -- study is "The Improvisational Performance of Culture in Realtime Discursive Practice," available here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/36490835/Silverstein-The-Improvisational-Performance-of-Culture-in-Realtime-Discursive-Practice. It's, again, simpler. Which is not to say simple. Aspects of Silverstein's prose style inform Lempert's presentation, for better or worse. In other words: the book is likely to strike those who are unfamiliar with the relevant idiom as being, well, tough sledding (Exhibit A: "All this conspicuous cross-modal indexing of deference entitlements, figured through an idiom of "fear," was testimony to Geshe-la's new status in the monastic hierarchy"; Exhibit B: "There is no matrix-clause here to frame the discourse as represented speech or thought, but explicit frames are only a special case. Who is the implied 'author' here, in the sense of the agent framed as bearing responsibility for the denotational content of the reported segment?" Etc). I say this not to denigrate the book. Lempert is very much in control of his material and methods, and it's fascinating to watch the analytical tools of LingAnth finally being applied -- and applied carefully and constructively -- to Tibetan debate. But those who have little patience with daunting academic prose are likely to find the text to be somewhat frustrating. Best wishes, R. Nance Indiana On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 6:05 AM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > so now do we >> need further allegations that monks are violated? >> > > The book apparently deals with two Tibetan institutions in India, one > following the traditional, brutal methods, and the other trying to move to > a more western "liberal" approach, but finding it difficult. > > As for this being about "allegations," I passed the book notice on to a > well known Tibetanist colleague who said he hadn't seen the book, but " it > looks interesting. I know several people who were educated in the Geluk > system who all remarked on the harshness of discipline, the use of physical > punishments, etc. It's probably a lot better than in Tibet, but still > pretty medieval." > > So, not "allegations." Disclosure might be a better word (less hysterical > than "expose"). > > The larger underlying issue is the gap between the imaginal "Buddhism(s)" > that we in the west have constructed from our own needs and proclivities, > often with complicity from our asian counterparts, and the actual > Buddhism(s), past and present. The "facts" are slowly emerging, and some of > them are painful, especially for those who cling to the fantasies, and > prefer their fantasies to the realities. That attitude, however, is > nonBuddhist; ignorance and delusion are the root problem. > > Dan > ______________________________**_________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/**mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Oct 17 08:14:17 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 14:14:17 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] book on Tibetan 'discipline' In-Reply-To: References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> <20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza> <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> Message-ID: <90F8ABFD-7306-4452-B456-B48C8746C0F5@unm.edu> On Oct 17, 2013, at 07:09 , Richard Nance wrote: > But those who have little patience with daunting academic prose are likely to find the > text to be somewhat frustrating. Richard, I hate it when you single me out like that. But I appreciate the warning. One of the other Richards From ugg-5 at spro.net Thu Oct 17 11:41:12 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 11:41:12 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] book on Tibetan 'discipline' In-Reply-To: References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> <20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza> <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> Message-ID: <005e01cecb60$12d28ad0$3877a070$@spro.net> Thanks for the warning, Richard. Such textual issues remind me of why the pomo in written discourse has finally been abandoned by almost all scholars, except for a few S. Asians, who take to it like devotees to a new swami. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Nance Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 7:09 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] book on Tibetan 'discipline' Hi all, Yes, I've read the book. It's quite good. Lempert was a student of Asif Agha at Penn, and Agha was a student of Michael Silverstein at Chicago. Ordinarily, I wouldn't place so much emphasis on tracing the scholarly lineage of a particular academic text, but potential readers should be warned that Lempert's book is very much steeped in the idiom of contemporary anthropology and, more specifically, within the sub-field of contemporary linguistic anthropology (or "LingAnth"). Silverstein is a founder of the subfield, and is undeniably brilliant -- to speak from personal experience, his courses at Chicago are at times shockingly virtuosic -- but his prose style is, well, an acquired taste. Yes, let's say that. An acquired taste -- at least for me. His paper "Metapragmatic Discourse and Metapragmatic Function," which you may be able to peruse here: http://ebooks.cambridge.org/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9780511621031&cid=CBO97805116 21031A010, still stands as one of the most difficult texts in English that I've ever given myself the task of working through. A simpler -- and at times very entertaining -- study is "The Improvisational Performance of Culture in Realtime Discursive Practice," available here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/36490835/Silverstein-The-Improvisational-Performan ce-of-Culture-in-Realtime-Discursive-Practice. It's, again, simpler. Which is not to say simple. Aspects of Silverstein's prose style inform Lempert's presentation, for better or worse. In other words: the book is likely to strike those who are unfamiliar with the relevant idiom as being, well, tough sledding (Exhibit A: "All this conspicuous cross-modal indexing of deference entitlements, figured through an idiom of "fear," was testimony to Geshe-la's new status in the monastic hierarchy"; Exhibit B: "There is no matrix-clause here to frame the discourse as represented speech or thought, but explicit frames are only a special case. Who is the implied 'author' here, in the sense of the agent framed as bearing responsibility for the denotational content of the reported segment?" Etc). I say this not to denigrate the book. Lempert is very much in control of his material and methods, and it's fascinating to watch the analytical tools of LingAnth finally being applied -- and applied carefully and constructively -- to Tibetan debate. But those who have little patience with daunting academic prose are likely to find the text to be somewhat frustrating. Best wishes, R. Nance Indiana On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 6:05 AM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > so now do we >> need further allegations that monks are violated? >> > > The book apparently deals with two Tibetan institutions in India, one > following the traditional, brutal methods, and the other trying to > move to a more western "liberal" approach, but finding it difficult. > > As for this being about "allegations," I passed the book notice on to > a well known Tibetanist colleague who said he hadn't seen the book, > but " it looks interesting. I know several people who were educated in > the Geluk system who all remarked on the harshness of discipline, the > use of physical punishments, etc. It's probably a lot better than in > Tibet, but still pretty medieval." > > So, not "allegations." Disclosure might be a better word (less > hysterical than "expose"). > > The larger underlying issue is the gap between the imaginal "Buddhism(s)" > that we in the west have constructed from our own needs and > proclivities, often with complicity from our asian counterparts, and > the actual Buddhism(s), past and present. The "facts" are slowly > emerging, and some of them are painful, especially for those who cling > to the fantasies, and prefer their fantasies to the realities. That > attitude, however, is nonBuddhist; ignorance and delusion are the root problem. > > Dan > ______________________________**_________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/**mailman/listinfo/buddha-l p.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l> > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From randall.bernard.jones at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 12:12:55 2013 From: randall.bernard.jones at gmail.com (Randall Jones) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 13:12:55 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] pomo In-Reply-To: <005e01cecb60$12d28ad0$3877a070$@spro.net> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> <20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza> <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> <005e01cecb60$12d28ad0$3877a070$@spro.net> Message-ID: <526028b4.4524ec0a.6232.0ded@mx.google.com> If you not looked at this before, you might enjoy it. The Postmodernism Generator ? Communications From Elsewhere [] http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/ Randall At 12:41 PM 10/17/2013, you wrote: >Thanks for the warning, Richard. Such textual issues remind me of why the >pomo in written discourse has finally been abandoned by almost all scholars, >except for a few S. Asians, who take to it like devotees to a new swami. >Joanna From ian.astley at ed.ac.uk Fri Oct 18 11:54:55 2013 From: ian.astley at ed.ac.uk (Dr Ian Astley) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 18:54:55 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] pomo In-Reply-To: <526028b4.4524ec0a.6232.0ded@mx.google.com> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> <20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza> <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> <005e01cecb60$12d28ad0$3877a070$@spro.net> <526028b4.4524ec0a.6232.0ded@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20131018185455.74051d7r1w27ko3o@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> Might I add the following to the list: Harry G. Frankfurt. "On bullshit". Raritan Quarterly Review 6, no. 2 (Fall 1986); repr. Princeton UP, 2005. ------. On truth. Random House, 2006. These pieces are written so simply and so clearly that I have had to re-read them several times. Best wishes, Ian -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Oct 18 21:06:33 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 03:06:33 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] pomo In-Reply-To: <526028b4.4524ec0a.6232.0ded@mx.google.com> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> <20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza> <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> <005e01cecb60$12d28ad0$3877a070$@spro.net>, <526028b4.4524ec0a.6232.0ded@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Oct 17, 2013, at 12:14, "Randall Jones" wrote: > If you not looked at this before, you might enjoy it. > > The Postmodernism Generator ? Communications From Elsewhere I used to have colleagues who talked, and graduate students who wrote, just like that! Seeing it all again gives me Pali Text Society Dictionary (hereinafter abbreviated PTSD). From ugg-5 at spro.net Fri Oct 18 21:10:21 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 21:10:21 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] pomo In-Reply-To: <20131018185455.74051d7r1w27ko3o@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> <20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza> <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> <005e01cecb60$12d28ad0$3877a070$@spro.net> <526028b4.4524ec0a.6232.0ded@mx.google.com> <20131018185455.74051d7r1w27ko3o@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <000501cecc78$c0177e30$40467a90$@spro.net> Both were books, not pieces. Other than that, sounds interesting. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Dr Ian Astley Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 11:55 AM To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] pomo Might I add the following to the list: Harry G. Frankfurt. "On bullshit". Raritan Quarterly Review 6, no. 2 (Fall 1986); repr. Princeton UP, 2005. ------. On truth. Random House, 2006. These pieces are written so simply and so clearly that I have had to re-read them several times. Best wishes, Ian -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From ian.astley at ed.ac.uk Sat Oct 19 03:38:26 2013 From: ian.astley at ed.ac.uk (Dr Ian Astley) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 10:38:26 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] pomo In-Reply-To: <000501cecc78$c0177e30$40467a90$@spro.net> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> <20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza> <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> <005e01cecb60$12d28ad0$3877a070$@spro.net> <526028b4.4524ec0a.6232.0ded@mx.google.com> <20131018185455.74051d7r1w27ko3o@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> <000501cecc78$c0177e30$40467a90$@spro.net> Message-ID: <20131019103826.15382dqhcyuo39j4@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> Quoting Jo on Fri, 18 Oct 2013 21:10:21 -0600: > Both were books, not pieces. Other than that, sounds interesting. Well, the first was originally an article, the second was about the same length but both were published as small-format books in large print (so that people like me could understand them), and both are pieces of work -- length doesn't come into it. Ah, Buddha-L, the last refuge of nit-picking. Ian -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Oct 19 07:25:31 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 13:25:31 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] pomo In-Reply-To: <20131018185455.74051d7r1w27ko3o@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> <20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza> <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> <005e01cecb60$12d28ad0$3877a070$@spro.net> <526028b4.4524ec0a.6232.0ded@mx.google.com>, <20131018185455.74051d7r1w27ko3o@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <21D19FC0-8C6F-413A-A41C-38DE9FC7E25A@unm.edu> On Oct 18, 2013, at 20:51, "Dr Ian Astley" wrote: > These pieces are written so simply and so clearly that I have had to re-read them several times. People who write in clear, simple, straightforward prose are begging to be misunderstood. From horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca Sat Oct 19 07:34:56 2013 From: horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca (Gad Horowitz) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 09:34:56 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] pomo In-Reply-To: <21D19FC0-8C6F-413A-A41C-38DE9FC7E25A@unm.edu> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> <20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza> <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> <005e01cecb60$12d28ad0$3877a070$@spro.net> <526028b4.4524ec0a.6232.0ded@mx.google.com> <20131018185455.74051d7r1w27ko3o@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> <21D19FC0-8C6F-413A-A41C-38DE9FC7E25A@unm.edu> Message-ID: <879B917A-37EC-4969-9CFF-0B4C42A0A4ED@chass.utoronto.ca> Is that why I always misunderstand you, Richard? Because of your clear, simple prose? Sent from my iPad On 2013-10-19, at 9:25 AM, Richard Hayes wrote: > On Oct 18, 2013, at 20:51, "Dr Ian Astley" wrote: > >> These pieces are written so simply and so clearly that I have had to re-read them several times. > > People who write in clear, simple, straightforward prose are begging to be misunderstood. > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Oct 19 08:48:24 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 14:48:24 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] pomo In-Reply-To: <879B917A-37EC-4969-9CFF-0B4C42A0A4ED@chass.utoronto.ca> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> <20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza> <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> <005e01cecb60$12d28ad0$3877a070$@spro.net> <526028b4.4524ec0a.6232.0ded@mx.google.com> <20131018185455.74051d7r1w27ko3o@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> <21D19FC0-8C6F-413A-A41C-38DE9FC7E25A@unm.edu>, <879B917A-37EC-4969-9CFF-0B4C42A0A4ED@chass.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: On Oct 19, 2013, at 7:38, "Gad Horowitz" wrote: > Is that why I always misunderstand you, Richard? Because of your clear, simple prose? That sounds like a plausible working hypothesis. How do you propose to test it? From bshmr at aol.com Sat Oct 19 12:36:18 2013 From: bshmr at aol.com (Richard Basham) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 12:36:18 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] pomo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20131019123618.0bc18bbb@aol.com> >> Horowitz: Is that why I always misunderstand you, Richard? Because of >> your clear, simple prose? >> > Hayes: That sounds like a plausible working hypothesis. How do you propose > to test it? > Yes, that indeed in a good question? Perhaps mothers are responsible instead. Richard Basham From ugg-5 at spro.net Sat Oct 19 13:16:23 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 13:16:23 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] pomo In-Reply-To: <20131019103826.15382dqhcyuo39j4@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> <20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza> <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> <005e01cecb60$12d28ad0$3877a070$@spro.net> <526028b4.4524ec0a.6232.0ded@mx.google.com> <20131018185455.74051d7r1w27ko3o@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> <000501cecc78$c0177e30$40467a90$@spro.net> <20131019103826.15382dqhcyuo39j4@www.staffmail.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <005501ceccff$b3c12730$1b437590$@spro.net> LONG LIVE THE NITS. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Dr Ian Astley Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 3:38 AM To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] pomo Quoting Jo on Fri, 18 Oct 2013 21:10:21 -0600: > Both were books, not pieces. Other than that, sounds interesting. Well, the first was originally an article, the second was about the same length but both were published as small-format books in large print (so that people like me could understand them), and both are pieces of work -- length doesn't come into it. Ah, Buddha-L, the last refuge of nit-picking. Ian -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From ugg-5 at spro.net Sat Oct 19 13:48:38 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 13:48:38 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] pomo In-Reply-To: <20131019123618.0bc18bbb@aol.com> References: <20131019123618.0bc18bbb@aol.com> Message-ID: <009701cecd04$3526edb0$9f74c910$@spro.net> >> Horowitz: Is that why I always misunderstand you, Richard? Because of >> your clear, simple prose? >> > Hayes: That sounds like a plausible working hypothesis. How do you propose > to test it? > Yes, that indeed in a good question? Perhaps mothers are responsible instead. Richard Basham ---------------- Richard B. out-does himself with this one. Laughs much appreciated. Joanna From ugg-5 at spro.net Sat Oct 19 15:54:18 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 15:54:18 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Western reporter's memoir about General Vo Nguyen Giap --article & photos Message-ID: <00a001cecd15$c38df1f0$4aa9d5d0$@spro.net> I'm posting this for those of us who opposed the Vietnam War. I think it's good to see how the Vietnamese (northerners at least) ordinary folks as well as veterans and decorated military men view their war of liberty from colonials. Some photos in links on this VietnamNet Bridge issue show a long line of Buddhists heading to pay their last regards. Seen among photos at this link: http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/society/86784/thousands-of-people-pray-at-g eneral-vo-nguyen-giap-s-grave.html Joanna ------------------------------------------- Article dated 08/10/2013 Article reprinted in VietnamNet Bridge, no doubt with permission from Huff Post where it first appeared, by Catherine Karnow, journalist wife of famous journalist of the American (Vietnam) War, Stanley Karnow. General Giap died Oct 4th (I think it was) at age 101. This issue of VietnamNet Bridge, with articles on his funeral and posthumous hero worship by thousands who travelled to his burial place, indicates how much of a hero he was to the northern Vietnamese. Some Saigonese don't consider him a hero. The split between north and south is still alive in many ways. Start article: Catherine Karnow, the only Western reporter who was permitted to exclusively interview General Vo Nguyen Giap and follow him to Dien Bien Phu in 1994, has special memories of General Giap. Karnow wrote about her meeting with General Giap on Huffington Post last year, in an article titled "Photographing a Vietnamese War Hero." The following is the article. August 25 marked the 101st birthday of General Vo Nguyen Giap, probably the greatest living general alive today. At this moment the General lies in a hospital where he has been for almost two years. General Giap master-minded the famous battle of Dien Bien Phu, which won Vietnam's independence from the French, in May of 1954. He was also responsible for Vietnam's winning the war against the Americans, when South Vietnam fell to the Communists in April 1975. The French called him the "snow-covered volcano" for his white hair and fiery composition........... Karnow interviewed him when he returned to Dien Ben Phu with veterans in 1994. This article reports on her interview with him at that time. Includes some of Karnow's photos. This anthropologist appreciates her photo of some 'Black Tai' women who were there. As I recall, they are called 'Black Tai' because of their black skirts and hats. From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Oct 19 22:56:17 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 00:56:17 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Western reporter's memoir about General Vo Nguyen Giap--article & photos References: <00a001cecd15$c38df1f0$4aa9d5d0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <43D47C2022EF4C688E40E5268CBF60A5@Dan> > Some photos in links on this VietnamNet Bridge issue show a long line of > Buddhists heading to pay their last regards. Seen among photos at this > link: > http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/society/86784/thousands-of-people-pray-at-g > eneral-vo-nguyen-giap-s-grave.html > Joanna One has to keep in mind that the ex-pat Vietnamese clergy in the US and Europe and elsewhere have been deeply suspicious of the clergy in Vietnam, accusing them of all sorts of complicities with the govt. and in being less than true Buddhists. Complicity issues are also leveled against Buddhist officialdoms in other Asian countries, such as China, Burma, Thailand, etc., so one much weave through such issues carefully. But one should be aware that the official clergy in Vietnam is govt. sanctioned, so that Buddhist officialdom tends to conform to the govt. Though some efforts at reconciliation between the thriving Vietnamese Buddhist communities outside Vietnam and the Buddhist officialdom in Vietnam have been made, there is still much distrust, as far as I know. Hence these ceremonies have to be looked at as required public performance with whatever sincerety lies behind it as socially contrived. (and please don't pretend it is 'just like here' -- it's not. Time to smell the difference.) Dan From stroble at hawaii.edu Sat Oct 19 23:53:07 2013 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (James A Stroble) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 19:53:07 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] book on Tibetan 'discipline' In-Reply-To: <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> <20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza> <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> Message-ID: <20131019195307.44890c45@Spinoza> On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 06:05:37 -0400 "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > > So, not "allegations." Disclosure might be a better word (less > hysterical than "expose"). > > The larger underlying issue is the gap between the imaginal > "Buddhism(s)" that we in the west have constructed from our own needs > and proclivities, often with complicity from our asian counterparts, > and the actual Buddhism(s), past and present. The "facts" are slowly > emerging, and some of them are painful, especially for those who > cling to the fantasies, and prefer their fantasies to the realities. > That attitude, however, is nonBuddhist; ignorance and delusion are > the root problem. > > Dan > I am infinitely curious about what exact fantastic Buddhism we in the west are clinging to in our ignorance and delusion. I also am not aware of any such delusion, which, after all, is probably what makes it a delusion. So Dan, if you would, could you spell out just what this fantastic Buddhism is? I know there are probably way too many versions to treat of exhaustively, but how about just those that are held by the inmates of Buddha-ell? -- Yours, James Andy Stroble Leeward Community College From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Oct 20 00:19:09 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 02:19:09 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] book on Tibetan 'discipline' References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net><047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca><664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu><1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net><215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan><20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza><47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> <20131019195307.44890c45@Spinoza> Message-ID: > I am infinitely curious about what exact fantastic Buddhism we in the > west are clinging to in our ignorance and delusion....could you spell out > just what > this fantastic Buddhism is? > James Andy Stroble Check the buddha-l archives. This is a topic that has been discussed much and often. Dan From stroble at hawaii.edu Sun Oct 20 00:45:40 2013 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (James A Stroble) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 20:45:40 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] book on Tibetan 'discipline' In-Reply-To: References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net> <047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca> <664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu> <1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net> <215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan> <20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza> <47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan> <20131019195307.44890c45@Spinoza> Message-ID: <20131019204540.4ba45bf0@Spinoza> On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 02:19:09 -0400 "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > > > I am infinitely curious about what exact fantastic Buddhism we in > > the west are clinging to in our ignorance and delusion....could you > > spell out just what > > this fantastic Buddhism is? > > James Andy Stroble > > Check the buddha-l archives. This is a topic that has been discussed > much and often. > So it has, and I have been here for most of that. But that is why I am asking for your opinion as to what delusional conceptions of Buddhism are held by others on the list. The only definite thing I can put my finger on is that you do not think that Yogacara is a form of idealism. But that does not address why some one like me would be shocked that Buddhist novices are disciplined in the Tibetan tradition. -- Yours, James Andy Stroble Leeward Community College From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Oct 20 02:02:23 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 04:02:23 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] book on Tibetan 'discipline' References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net><047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca><664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu><1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net><215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan><20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza><47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan><20131019195307.44890c45@Spinoza> <20131019204540.4ba45bf0@Spinoza> Message-ID: >The only definite thing I can put my > finger on is that you do not think that Yogacara is a form of > idealism. Don't be so definite. I've always said that Yogacara employs a form of epistemological idealism -- you only know what you know -- which is ontologically uncommitted, but it is not a form of metaphysical or ontological idealism (only mind is real). Big difference. Time to review the archive. You'll find everything there. Dan From tccahill at loyno.edu Sun Oct 20 09:41:37 2013 From: tccahill at loyno.edu (tccahill at loyno.edu) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 10:41:37 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] fantastic Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello James, and others, There are certain ideas that folks in North America feel sure of relating to Buddhism. E.g., it is completely peaceful or that it is not like other religions. Or the idea that Buddhism is necessarily an individualistic and a countercultural endeavor. Anyone who has taught Buddhism to undergraduates knows there's plenty of "unpacking" to do in terms of examining our cultural presuppositions. This could be what motivated Donald Lopez to write a book like "7 Things You Didn't Know about Tibet." Another eye-opener is the "The Struggle for Modern Tibet: Autobiography of Tashi Tsering" --coauthored by two Americans who seemed to feel that his story needed to be heard by an English reading audience. It's difficult to speak of generalizations about people on this list since we (meaning "I") don't keep close track of who's lurking and who has just signed off and what levels of experience and knowledge the various readers have. Obviously there's a lot of expertise! When I first joined, I remember being not only educated (very regularly!) but also being positively shocked to learn certain things. Happily, by monitoring the list and following up on suggested readings, I've found that the voltage has dropped. Now, I could offer a flippant, postmodern (or Mah?y?nan?) reply: any singular notion "Buddhism" is a fantasy. But I won't. best, Tim Cahill From ugg-5 at spro.net Sun Oct 20 11:10:01 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 11:10:01 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] book on Tibetan 'discipline' In-Reply-To: References: <003101cec83a$43a66600$caf33200$@spro.net><047DA414-4514-402F-9CAC-E8636ED0F5E1@chass.utoronto.ca><664C086E-D915-4C08-AD72-AFB624F1DB3E@unm.edu><1381735300.2001.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><003201cec8fa$8a069730$9e13c590$@spro.net><215D6B2B17284896B18C404AF4FCAEF2@Dan><20131016212126.6bea2d85@Spinoza><47660DAA677446B2A7DDAE2AC9E7F4E5@Dan><20131019195307.44890c45@Spinoza> <20131019204540.4ba45bf0@Spinoza> Message-ID: <001801cecdb7$3766b430$a6341c90$@spro.net> Last I read, the archive is unreachable, for some techy reason. Is it now available via signing in with mailman? Joanna --------------------------------------------------- Time to review the archive. You'll find everything there. Dan _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From ugg-5 at spro.net Sun Oct 20 11:54:03 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 11:54:03 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Western reporter's memoir about General Vo Nguyen Giap--article & photos In-Reply-To: <43D47C2022EF4C688E40E5268CBF60A5@Dan> References: <00a001cecd15$c38df1f0$4aa9d5d0$@spro.net> <43D47C2022EF4C688E40E5268CBF60A5@Dan> Message-ID: <001901cecdbd$5defc230$19cf4690$@spro.net> Dan, Vietnam is distinctly unlike North Korea. I refer to the public performances that were choreographed for the world's cameras when Kim Jong Il died. General Giap got a state funeral indeed. The choreography was nothing like that in N. Korea. Was Ike a genuinely popular hero? Giap certainly was. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/10/12/general-giap-and-the-myth-o f-american-invincibility.html or http://tinyurl.com/mal3wa2 http://www.businessinsider.com/category/us-army.rss Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Dan Lusthaus Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 10:56 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Western reporter's memoir about General Vo Nguyen Giap--article & photos > Some photos in links on this VietnamNet Bridge issue show a long line of > Buddhists heading to pay their last regards. Seen among photos at this > link: > http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/society/86784/thousands-of-people-pray-at-g > eneral-vo-nguyen-giap-s-grave.html > Joanna One has to keep in mind that the ex-pat Vietnamese clergy in the US and Europe and elsewhere have been deeply suspicious of the clergy in Vietnam, accusing them of all sorts of complicities with the govt. and in being less than true Buddhists. Complicity issues are also leveled against Buddhist officialdoms in other Asian countries, such as China, Burma, Thailand, etc., so one much weave through such issues carefully. But one should be aware that the official clergy in Vietnam is govt. sanctioned, so that Buddhist officialdom tends to conform to the govt. Though some efforts at reconciliation between the thriving Vietnamese Buddhist communities outside Vietnam and the Buddhist officialdom in Vietnam have been made, there is still much distrust, as far as I know. Hence these ceremonies have to be looked at as required public performance with whatever sincerety lies behind it as socially contrived. (and please don't pretend it is 'just like here' -- it's not. Time to smell the difference.) Dan _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Oct 20 12:35:09 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 14:35:09 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Western reporter's memoir about General VoNguyen Giap--article & photos References: <00a001cecd15$c38df1f0$4aa9d5d0$@spro.net><43D47C2022EF4C688E40E5268CBF60A5@Dan> <001901cecdbd$5defc230$19cf4690$@spro.net> Message-ID: <36E76E6145DB433B95F13EA7F1313945@Dan> > Dan, Vietnam is distinctly unlike North Korea. I refer to the public > performances that were choreographed for the world's cameras when Kim Jong > Il died. First, I agree that Vietnam is unlike N. Korea, just as it is unlike us. Second, that many/most N. Koreans have been successfully brainwashed to revere their divine leaders to the nth degree is the case. So the choreographed ceremonies and mourning in N. Korea where legitimate expressions of deep emotional feelings. (Koreans in the N. and S. are easily the most emotional group in E. Asia -- the most popular entertainment there consists of long "variety" shows running for hours, the mainstay of which are singers singing sad to melancholy songs, and the audience -- made up of children through grandmothers -- all crying along. That's what counts as a "good time" in Korea.) Third, what I was referring to is the disparity between the way ex-pat Vietnamese Buddhists, esp. clergy, view their in-country brethren, not exactly that the in-country Buddhists are all hypocritical, though some social coersion -- at least in the form of expectations -- is at play. There is complicity between the govt and Buddhist leadership, which thus instills and inculcates respect for national heroes, including military ones. In that sense, like N. Koreans, they have bought into the cultural myths, and little room for dissent or opposing opnions is allowed in public -- worse in N. Korea, but worse in Vietnam than here. Buddhist support for nationalistic militarism in Asia (and in Europe during the 20th c., with support for fascism and neonazism -- e.g., G. Tucci, Julius Evola, Chr. Lindtner, etc. -- to get started, google "evola buddhism" and hold your breath) is a topic whose time has come. Dan From ugg-5 at spro.net Sun Oct 20 13:17:08 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 13:17:08 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddha-L archive? Message-ID: <000601cecdc8$f95b0c10$ec112430$@spro.net> Re-sending because I should have changed the subject header: Last I read, the archive of this list is unreachable, for some techy reason. Is it now available via signing in with mailman? Joanna --------------------------------------------------- Time to review the archive. You'll find everything there. Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Oct 20 15:59:43 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 17:59:43 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddha-L archive? References: <000601cecdc8$f95b0c10$ec112430$@spro.net> Message-ID: <691116DED6B24689BECE29A272C7ABA3@Dan> > Is it now available via signing in with mailman? Joanna, I just logged on at http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/2013-September/author.html#18807 no problem. And the archive was functional. Once in you can sort by threat, subject or date, and play around with other months, etc.. Happy foraging. Dan From ugg-5 at spro.net Sun Oct 20 16:07:29 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 16:07:29 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddha-L archive? In-Reply-To: <691116DED6B24689BECE29A272C7ABA3@Dan> References: <000601cecdc8$f95b0c10$ec112430$@spro.net> <691116DED6B24689BECE29A272C7ABA3@Dan> Message-ID: <000901cecde0$c55d7d90$501878b0$@spro.net> Good to know it functions. JK -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Dan Lusthaus Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 4:00 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Buddha-L archive? > Is it now available via signing in with mailman? Joanna, I just logged on at http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/2013-September/author.html# 18807 no problem. And the archive was functional. Once in you can sort by threat, subject or date, and play around with other months, etc.. Happy foraging. Dan _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Oct 20 16:48:02 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 18:48:02 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddha-L archive? References: <000601cecdc8$f95b0c10$ec112430$@spro.net><691116DED6B24689BECE29A272C7ABA3@Dan> <000901cecde0$c55d7d90$501878b0$@spro.net> Message-ID: > Good to know it functions. > JK >> Joanna, I just logged on at >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/2013-September/author.html# > 18807 Perhaps someone either more adept or more familiar with the archive can explain how to use it most profitably. Is there a way to do a global search of a topic? I can't find a way to do that. Also, to view other dates, the only way I can manage that is to change the date directly in the url, so that, for instance, to find out what was going on in February 2011, one would change the above url to http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/2011-February/author.html# 18807 admittedly not the most efficient way to peruse. Does anyone know a more effective way to search the archive? Include urls please. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Oct 20 21:36:58 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 03:36:58 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddha-L archive? In-Reply-To: References: <000601cecdc8$f95b0c10$ec112430$@spro.net><691116DED6B24689BECE29A272C7ABA3@Dan> <000901cecde0$c55d7d90$501878b0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <2664E8E9-58C3-4E5A-B9D1-DE267382B5CC@unm.edu> On Oct 20, 2013, at 16:48 , Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Perhaps someone either more adept or more familiar with the archive can explain how to use it most profitably. Is there a way to do a global search of a topic? I can't find a way to do that. The only way I can think of is to download all the zip files, unzip them into the same directory and then do a grep search (if you have Linux ora Mac). Unfortunately, a grep will turn up every occurrence of lines that meet the search criteria, including lines that get quoted in replies. Given how cumbersome the archives are to search, inviting people to search the archives to find answers to particular questions is an invitation of very limited value. From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Oct 20 22:42:35 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 00:42:35 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddha-L archive? References: <000601cecdc8$f95b0c10$ec112430$@spro.net><691116DED6B24689BECE29A272C7ABA3@Dan><000901cecde0$c55d7d90$501878b0$@spro.net> <2664E8E9-58C3-4E5A-B9D1-DE267382B5CC@unm.edu> Message-ID: > Given how cumbersome the archives are to search... When will buddha-l enter the 21st century? Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Oct 21 04:48:05 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 10:48:05 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddha-L archive? In-Reply-To: References: <000601cecdc8$f95b0c10$ec112430$@spro.net><691116DED6B24689BECE29A272C7ABA3@Dan><000901cecde0$c55d7d90$501878b0$@spro.net> <2664E8E9-58C3-4E5A-B9D1-DE267382B5CC@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <17FE5F11-1E61-4F37-97AA-AAD3D46D9701@unm.edu> On Oct 20, 2013, at 22:43, "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > When will buddha-l enter the 21st century? What's the rush to abandon "Sarvam anityam"? From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Oct 24 19:24:46 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 21:24:46 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes, China, Tibet References: <000601cecdc8$f95b0c10$ec112430$@spro.net><691116DED6B24689BECE29A272C7ABA3@Dan><000901cecde0$c55d7d90$501878b0$@spro.net><2664E8E9-58C3-4E5A-B9D1-DE267382B5CC@unm.edu>, <17FE5F11-1E61-4F37-97AA-AAD3D46D9701@unm.edu> Message-ID: <78CE2C16F87C46019D43F08C2610BFEF@Dan> Latest from nyt. Online article includes photos. Dan http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/25/world/asia/tibetan-monks-describe-a-web-of-unseen-controls.html?hp&pagewanted=all or http://tinyurl.com/mlo2mva October 24, 2013 Tibetans Call China's Policies At Tourist Spot Tacit but Stifling By DAN LEVIN XIAHE, China - Buddhist monks in flowing burgundy robes hurried along the dirt paths of the Labrang Monastery, trying their best to ignore the scrum of Chinese tourists following their every move, many with cameras fit for paparazzi. Pilgrims and those less spiritually inclined wandered through the ornate complex here in the mountain town of Xiahe to gaze upon towering Buddha statues bathed in incense. Some tourists held back to indulge in distinctly unenlightened pursuits, smoking cigarettes and pouting at smartphones in the high-tech vanity ritual known as the selfie. One of the most important sites in Tibetan Buddhism, Labrang presents an idyllic picture of sacred devotion that is carefully curated by the Chinese government, which hopes to convince visitors that Tibetan religion and culture are swaddled in the Communist Party's benevolent embrace. But behind closed doors, many of the monastery's resident monks complain about intrusive government policies, invisible to tourists, that they say are strangling their culture and identity. "Even if we're just praying, the government treats us as criminals," said a young monk, who like others interviewed recently spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid government repercussions. Such frustrations, many monks say, are what have driven more than 120 Tibetans to set fire to themselves since 2009, including 13 in the Labrang area, in a wave of protests that has gone largely unreported in Chinese news media. International human rights advocates say that rather than address the underlying grievances - including Beijing's deeply unpopular campaign to demonize the Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader - Chinese authorities have responded with even harsher policies that punish the relatives of those who self-immolate and imprison those who disseminate news of the protests to the outside world. Exile groups and analysts say Labrang and a handful of other monasteries across the vast Tibetan plateau in Central Asia have become showcases for Beijing's strategy, which seeks to stifle dissent in well-trafficked tourist sites without scaring away visitors. Monks here describe a largely unseen web of controls that keep potential troublemakers in line: ubiquitous surveillance cameras, paid informers and plainclothes security agents who mingle among the busloads of tourists. Hidden from the throngs are the political education sessions during which monks are forced to denounce the Dalai Lama. Stiff jail sentences await those who step out of line. "If we don't obey, it will be terrible for us," the monk said. Founded in the early 18th century, the Labrang Monastery is tucked into the dusky hills of northwestern Gansu Province. Each day, hundreds of Chinese tourists arrive to spin colorful prayer wheels lining the monastery perimeter and sip tea at hotels designed to resemble Tibetan nomadic tents. Along the town's main street, they buy turquoise-encrusted amulets, dress up in monks' robes and take turns trying on the ceremonial yellow hats that resemble mohawk-style haircuts. Officials hope that a recently completed airport will draw even bigger crowds. In a monastery courtyard surrounded by whitewashed mud walls, a Chinese family from the provincial capital, Lanzhou, knelt down to pray to Buddha. "If you ask nicely, he'll make your wish come true," said the mother, Ming Yang, who acknowledged that her understanding of Buddhism ended there. With an eye on the lucrative prestige of a Unesco World Heritage listing, the central government is giving the monastery a $26 million face-lift. Around 1,000 monks and 65,000 volumes of Buddhist scripture are housed in the sprawling complex, which local officials say is in dire need of structural improvements. Yet locals complain that much of the construction is aimed at increasing tourism, rather than benefiting Tibetans. "It looks fancy, but in reality all the improvements are for Chinese people," one said. Tourism is rapidly reshaping much of the Tibetan plateau. According to the Xinhua state news agency, six million tourists visited Lhasa, the capital of the Tibetan Autonomous Region, in the first eight months of this year, a 20 percent increase over the same period in 2012. The boom has attracted several international hotel chains to the city, which is under de facto martial law. In May, Tibetan exile groups started a boycott campaign against the InterContinental Hotels Group, which is building a 2,000-room luxury resort next to the historic residence once occupied by the Dalai Lama. In the wake of violent anti-Chinese protests that swept Tibet in 2008 and the wave of self-immolations that followed, security forces have tightened their grip. The crackdown reaches deep into the folds of Tibetan spirituality. According to the International Campaign for Tibet, officials have posted notices in Tibetan areas declaring it illegal to pray for self-immolators or to show solidarity "by burning incense, chanting religious scriptures, releasing animals from killing and lighting candles." At least two monks have been jailed for praying on behalf of self-immolators, the group said. Exile groups say such tactics only alienate Tibetans further. "Even lighting a butter lamp or incense stick becomes an act against the state," Kate Saunders, communications director for the organization, said from London. Yet local enforcement has been erratic. Nowhere is this more clear than at Labrang, where a framed photo of the Dalai Lama sits on an altar beside a large golden Buddha. For years, the government has banned photos of the Dalai Lama and forbidden Tibetans to worship him as a religious figure. Monks at Labrang said they believed that local officials had decided to quietly tolerate such photos in an effort to head off further unrest. On the tour, few of the Chinese day-trippers seemed to recognize the older, bespectacled man Beijing has called "a wolf in sheep's clothing." The monk guiding the group made no mention of his identity, lest it threaten the ticket sales and donations needed to cover operating costs. But being the main attraction on a Buddhist safari has spiritual drawbacks. "Chinese tourists just barge in when we're studying," a middle-aged monk said as he fingered a set of prayer beads. "It knocks on our minds, but they don't care." Such complaints appear to be falling on deaf ears. During a tour of the region in July, China's top official in charge of ethnic minorities, Yu Zhengsheng, insisted that economic development was the panacea for what ailed Tibetans. In the same breath, he condemned the Dalai Lama's "middle way," which calls for genuine autonomy in Tibet but not independence, saying it conflicts with China's political system. "Only when people's lives have been improved can they be better united with the Chinese Communist Party and become a reliable basis for maintaining stability," he said, according to Xinhua. But local Tibetans seethe at China's refusal to recognize their most basic aspirations. "Our hope is that the Dalai Lama can return," said a monk, looking out for eavesdroppers while sitting at a cafe. "Without him, there is no chance our religion and culture will survive." From ugg-5 at spro.net Thu Oct 24 21:25:03 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 21:25:03 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes, China, Tibet In-Reply-To: <78CE2C16F87C46019D43F08C2610BFEF@Dan> References: <000601cecdc8$f95b0c10$ec112430$@spro.net><691116DED6B24689BECE29A272C7ABA3@Dan><000901cecde0$c55d7d90$501878b0$@spro.net><2664E8E9-58C3-4E5A-B9D1-DE267382B5CC@unm.edu>, <17FE5F11-1E61-4F37-97AA-AAD3D46D9701@unm.edu> <78CE2C16F87C46019D43F08C2610BFEF@Dan> Message-ID: <001d01ced131$cc26a350$6473e9f0$@spro.net> The more I hear about how China intervenes in Tibetan religion and culture the more horrible he Chinese government, especially for turning Labrang into a tourism destination. UNESCO should be publicly condemned if they list this area as a world heritage site. Then there is the InterContinental Hotels Group......I'm so shocked by their arrogance I'm at a loss. But Buddhists around the world are lackadaisical......anything requiring a modicum of judgmental action is dismissed as contrary to the teachings. Only those Tibetans operating underground or worse, self-immolating, wouldn't deny responsibility in that way. Even the Christians of the world unite now and then when they hear of talibans or Muslim fundos burning churches and killing Christians. Huge outcries appear in the newspapers. Money is spent trying to rescue, and rebuild if possible. Christian international pressure was part of the reason French militaries went after the fundos of northern Mali because, as well as attacking local Muslims they did not approve of, they were also burning churches and attacking Xtians. Why can't the Buddhists get themselves together for mass protest in print? Of course many are Chinese! Either in China or in Taiwan. However, there are lots of Buddhists in SEAsia, Australia, the USA, the EU, UK......... Is it because there is no "church" in Buddhism? That lack doesn't stop Muslim fundos. Any ideas why Buddhist mass protests aren't happening? (I refer to well-funded media campaigns, not to demos like Occupy, for ex.) -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Dan Lusthaus Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 7:25 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: [Buddha-l] nytimes, China, Tibet Latest from nyt. Online article includes photos. Dan http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/25/world/asia/tibetan-monks-describe-a-web-of -unseen-controls.html?hp&pagewanted=all or http://tinyurl.com/mlo2mva October 24, 2013 Tibetans Call China's Policies At Tourist Spot Tacit but Stifling By DAN LEVIN XIAHE, China - Buddhist monks in flowing burgundy robes hurried along the dirt paths of the Labrang Monastery, trying their best to ignore the scrum of Chinese tourists following their every move, many with cameras fit for paparazzi. Pilgrims and those less spiritually inclined wandered through the ornate complex here in the mountain town of Xiahe to gaze upon towering Buddha statues bathed in incense. Some tourists held back to indulge in distinctly unenlightened pursuits, smoking cigarettes and pouting at smartphones in the high-tech vanity ritual known as the selfie. One of the most important sites in Tibetan Buddhism, Labrang presents an idyllic picture of sacred devotion that is carefully curated by the Chinese government, which hopes to convince visitors that Tibetan religion and culture are swaddled in the Communist Party's benevolent embrace. But behind closed doors, many of the monastery's resident monks complain about intrusive government policies, invisible to tourists, that they say are strangling their culture and identity. "Even if we're just praying, the government treats us as criminals," said a young monk, who like others interviewed recently spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid government repercussions. Such frustrations, many monks say, are what have driven more than 120 Tibetans to set fire to themselves since 2009, including 13 in the Labrang area, in a wave of protests that has gone largely unreported in Chinese news media. International human rights advocates say that rather than address the underlying grievances - including Beijing's deeply unpopular campaign to demonize the Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader - Chinese authorities have responded with even harsher policies that punish the relatives of those who self-immolate and imprison those who disseminate news of the protests to the outside world. Exile groups and analysts say Labrang and a handful of other monasteries across the vast Tibetan plateau in Central Asia have become showcases for Beijing's strategy, which seeks to stifle dissent in well-trafficked tourist sites without scaring away visitors. Monks here describe a largely unseen web of controls that keep potential troublemakers in line: ubiquitous surveillance cameras, paid informers and plainclothes security agents who mingle among the busloads of tourists. Hidden from the throngs are the political education sessions during which monks are forced to denounce the Dalai Lama. Stiff jail sentences await those who step out of line. "If we don't obey, it will be terrible for us," the monk said. Founded in the early 18th century, the Labrang Monastery is tucked into the dusky hills of northwestern Gansu Province. Each day, hundreds of Chinese tourists arrive to spin colorful prayer wheels lining the monastery perimeter and sip tea at hotels designed to resemble Tibetan nomadic tents. Along the town's main street, they buy turquoise-encrusted amulets, dress up in monks' robes and take turns trying on the ceremonial yellow hats that resemble mohawk-style haircuts. Officials hope that a recently completed airport will draw even bigger crowds. In a monastery courtyard surrounded by whitewashed mud walls, a Chinese family from the provincial capital, Lanzhou, knelt down to pray to Buddha. "If you ask nicely, he'll make your wish come true," said the mother, Ming Yang, who acknowledged that her understanding of Buddhism ended there. With an eye on the lucrative prestige of a Unesco World Heritage listing, the central government is giving the monastery a $26 million face-lift. Around 1,000 monks and 65,000 volumes of Buddhist scripture are housed in the sprawling complex, which local officials say is in dire need of structural improvements. Yet locals complain that much of the construction is aimed at increasing tourism, rather than benefiting Tibetans. "It looks fancy, but in reality all the improvements are for Chinese people," one said. Tourism is rapidly reshaping much of the Tibetan plateau. According to the Xinhua state news agency, six million tourists visited Lhasa, the capital of the Tibetan Autonomous Region, in the first eight months of this year, a 20 percent increase over the same period in 2012. The boom has attracted several international hotel chains to the city, which is under de facto martial law. In May, Tibetan exile groups started a boycott campaign against the InterContinental Hotels Group, which is building a 2,000-room luxury resort next to the historic residence once occupied by the Dalai Lama. In the wake of violent anti-Chinese protests that swept Tibet in 2008 and the wave of self-immolations that followed, security forces have tightened their grip. The crackdown reaches deep into the folds of Tibetan spirituality. According to the International Campaign for Tibet, officials have posted notices in Tibetan areas declaring it illegal to pray for self-immolators or to show solidarity "by burning incense, chanting religious scriptures, releasing animals from killing and lighting candles." At least two monks have been jailed for praying on behalf of self-immolators, the group said. Exile groups say such tactics only alienate Tibetans further. "Even lighting a butter lamp or incense stick becomes an act against the state," Kate Saunders, communications director for the organization, said from London. Yet local enforcement has been erratic. Nowhere is this more clear than at Labrang, where a framed photo of the Dalai Lama sits on an altar beside a large golden Buddha. For years, the government has banned photos of the Dalai Lama and forbidden Tibetans to worship him as a religious figure. Monks at Labrang said they believed that local officials had decided to quietly tolerate such photos in an effort to head off further unrest. On the tour, few of the Chinese day-trippers seemed to recognize the older, bespectacled man Beijing has called "a wolf in sheep's clothing." The monk guiding the group made no mention of his identity, lest it threaten the ticket sales and donations needed to cover operating costs. But being the main attraction on a Buddhist safari has spiritual drawbacks. "Chinese tourists just barge in when we're studying," a middle-aged monk said as he fingered a set of prayer beads. "It knocks on our minds, but they don't care." Such complaints appear to be falling on deaf ears. During a tour of the region in July, China's top official in charge of ethnic minorities, Yu Zhengsheng, insisted that economic development was the panacea for what ailed Tibetans. In the same breath, he condemned the Dalai Lama's "middle way," which calls for genuine autonomy in Tibet but not independence, saying it conflicts with China's political system. "Only when people's lives have been improved can they be better united with the Chinese Communist Party and become a reliable basis for maintaining stability," he said, according to Xinhua. But local Tibetans seethe at China's refusal to recognize their most basic aspirations. "Our hope is that the Dalai Lama can return," said a monk, looking out for eavesdroppers while sitting at a cafe. "Without him, there is no chance our religion and culture will survive." _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From Bradley.Clough at mso.umt.edu Tue Oct 29 15:13:11 2013 From: Bradley.Clough at mso.umt.edu (Clough, Bradley) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 21:13:11 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] CFP on Indian Mahayana Buddhism Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am interested in forming a panel on "New Studies of Indian Mahayana Buddhism" for the annual South Asian Studies Association conference, to be held Apr. 11-14 2014 in Salt Lake City. Anyone interested in participating should contact me off list. Thanks, Brad Bradley Clough bradley.clough at mso.umt.edu Liberal Studies/Asian Religions LA 101 The University of Montana 32 Campus Drive Missoula, MT 59812 Office: 406-243-2837 Fax-406-243-5313 From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Oct 31 14:33:36 2013 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 20:33:36 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Happy Halloween! Buddha-L is defunct! Message-ID: <31525616-2609-4882-8A51-13E9D87D237F@unm.edu> Dear Denizens of Buddha-l, It is Halloween, time for our annual announcement that Buddha-L is going to shut down. This time we really mean it. Buddha-L really is about to close down. As one can tell from the name, the discussion group got started back in the days when an email forum could not have a name any longer than eight characters, the last two of which had to be '-l' for some reason. Twenty-two years have passed since then, and I think it's safe to say that buddha-l has hardly ever lived up to its lofty description. \begin{lofty description} Buddha-l functions as an open forum for informed discussion of topics relating to the history, literature and languages, fine arts, philosophy, practices and institutions of all forms of Buddhism. The primary purpose of this list is to provide a forum for reflective discussion. It is open to all persons inside and outside the academic context who wish to engage in substantial discussion of topics relating to Buddhism and Buddhist studies. Buddha-l is not to be used for proselytizing for or against Buddhism in general, any particular form of Buddhism, or any other religion or philosophy. Lively debate is welcome, but we aim for a deep concern both for the matter being discussed and for those participating in the conversation. \end{lofty description} If anyone wishes to get copies of any or all of the archived discussions, the archives from March 2008 to the present are available at http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/ . Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), the archives of the discussions that took place when buddha-l was hosted at the University of Louisville and later at McGill University are lost forever. Only those yogis with extraordinary powers of clairvoyance will be able to read the discussions that took place between October 1991 and February 2008. It has been an interesting twenty-two years, but all things, good and bad, must come to an end. And so, as Victor B?rge almost used to say, "Not Auf Wiedersehen, but Say?nara." The Management Team of Buddha-L From waynewc at shaw.ca Thu Oct 31 17:33:08 2013 From: waynewc at shaw.ca (W. Codling) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 16:33:08 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Happy Halloween! Buddha-L is defunct! In-Reply-To: <31525616-2609-4882-8A51-13E9D87D237F@unm.edu> References: <31525616-2609-4882-8A51-13E9D87D237F@unm.edu> Message-ID: <5272E8B4.10402@shaw.ca> I have been a subscriber to this list from almost the beginning. It has been a very good source of information and many of the threads have been wonderful and unique. I am grateful to all the great scholars who have given of their time and expertise to post to this forum. I am going to miss it. gassho, Wayne Codling On 2013-10-31 1:33 PM, Richard Hayes wrote: > Dear Denizens of Buddha-l, > > It is Halloween, time for our annual announcement that Buddha-L is going to shut down. This time we really mean it. Buddha-L really is about to close down. As one can tell from the name, the discussion group got started back in the days when an email forum could not have a name any longer than eight characters, the last two of which had to be '-l' for some reason. Twenty-two years have passed since then, and I think it's safe to say that buddha-l has hardly ever lived up to its lofty description. > > \begin{lofty description} > Buddha-l functions as an open forum for informed discussion of topics relating to the history, literature and languages, fine arts, philosophy, practices and institutions of all forms of Buddhism. > > The primary purpose of this list is to provide a forum for reflective discussion. It is open to all persons inside and outside the academic context who wish to engage in substantial discussion of topics relating to Buddhism and Buddhist studies. > > Buddha-l is not to be used for proselytizing for or against Buddhism in general, any particular form of Buddhism, or any other religion or philosophy. Lively debate is welcome, but we aim for a deep concern both for the matter being discussed and for those participating in the conversation. > \end{lofty description} > > If anyone wishes to get copies of any or all of the archived discussions, the archives from March 2008 to the present are available at http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/ . Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), the archives of the discussions that took place when buddha-l was hosted at the University of Louisville and later at McGill University are lost forever. Only those yogis with extraordinary powers of clairvoyance will be able to read the discussions that took place between October 1991 and February 2008. > > It has been an interesting twenty-two years, but all things, good and bad, must come to an end. And so, as Victor B?rge almost used to say, "Not Auf Wiedersehen, but Say?nara." > > The Management Team of Buddha-L > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From ugg-5 at spro.net Thu Oct 31 17:50:47 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 17:50:47 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Happy Halloween! Buddha-L is defunct! In-Reply-To: <31525616-2609-4882-8A51-13E9D87D237F@unm.edu> References: <31525616-2609-4882-8A51-13E9D87D237F@unm.edu> Message-ID: <001201ced694$06401550$12c03ff0$@spro.net> Om mangalam. JK -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 2:34 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: [Buddha-l] Happy Halloween! Buddha-L is defunct! Dear Denizens of Buddha-l, It is Halloween, time for our annual announcement that Buddha-L is going to shut down. This time we really mean it. Buddha-L really is about to close down. As one can tell from the name, the discussion group got started back in the days when an email forum could not have a name any longer than eight characters, the last two of which had to be '-l' for some reason. Twenty-two years have passed since then, and I think it's safe to say that buddha-l has hardly ever lived up to its lofty description. \begin{lofty description} Buddha-l functions as an open forum for informed discussion of topics relating to the history, literature and languages, fine arts, philosophy, practices and institutions of all forms of Buddhism. The primary purpose of this list is to provide a forum for reflective discussion. It is open to all persons inside and outside the academic context who wish to engage in substantial discussion of topics relating to Buddhism and Buddhist studies. Buddha-l is not to be used for proselytizing for or against Buddhism in general, any particular form of Buddhism, or any other religion or philosophy. Lively debate is welcome, but we aim for a deep concern both for the matter being discussed and for those participating in the conversation. \end{lofty description} If anyone wishes to get copies of any or all of the archived discussions, the archives from March 2008 to the present are available at http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/ . Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), the archives of the discussions that took place when buddha-l was hosted at the University of Louisville and later at McGill University are lost forever. Only those yogis with extraordinary powers of clairvoyance will be able to read the discussions that took place between October 1991 and February 2008. It has been an interesting twenty-two years, but all things, good and bad, must come to an end. And so, as Victor B?rge almost used to say, "Not Auf Wiedersehen, but Say?nara." The Management Team of Buddha-L _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From lidewij at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 22:21:39 2013 From: lidewij at gmail.com (Lidewij Niezink) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 12:21:39 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Happy Halloween! Buddha-L is defunct! In-Reply-To: <001201ced694$06401550$12c03ff0$@spro.net> References: <31525616-2609-4882-8A51-13E9D87D237F@unm.edu> <001201ced694$06401550$12c03ff0$@spro.net> Message-ID: Can we have a vote? I too will miss this list service! On 1 Nov 2013 07:51, "Jo" wrote: > Om mangalam. > > JK > > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto: > buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 2:34 PM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: [Buddha-l] Happy Halloween! Buddha-L is defunct! > > Dear Denizens of Buddha-l, > > It is Halloween, time for our annual announcement that Buddha-L is going > to shut down. This time we really mean it. Buddha-L really is about to > close down. As one can tell from the name, the discussion group got started > back in the days when an email forum could not have a name any longer than > eight characters, the last two of which had to be '-l' for some reason. > Twenty-two years have passed since then, and I think it's safe to say that > buddha-l has hardly ever lived up to its lofty description. > > \begin{lofty description} > Buddha-l functions as an open forum for informed discussion of topics > relating to the history, literature and languages, fine arts, philosophy, > practices and institutions of all forms of Buddhism. > > The primary purpose of this list is to provide a forum for reflective > discussion. It is open to all persons inside and outside the academic > context who wish to engage in substantial discussion of topics relating to > Buddhism and Buddhist studies. > > Buddha-l is not to be used for proselytizing for or against Buddhism in > general, any particular form of Buddhism, or any other religion or > philosophy. Lively debate is welcome, but we aim for a deep concern both > for the matter being discussed and for those participating in the > conversation. > \end{lofty description} > > If anyone wishes to get copies of any or all of the archived discussions, > the archives from March 2008 to the present are available at > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/ . Unfortunately (or > perhaps fortunately), the archives of the discussions that took place when > buddha-l was hosted at the University of Louisville and later at McGill > University are lost forever. Only those yogis with extraordinary powers of > clairvoyance will be able to read the discussions that took place between > October 1991 and February 2008. > > It has been an interesting twenty-two years, but all things, good and bad, > must come to an end. And so, as Victor B?rge almost used to say, "Not Auf > Wiedersehen, but Say?nara." > > The Management Team of Buddha-L > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >