From sallymcara at gmail.com Sun Mar 3 15:47:31 2013 From: sallymcara at gmail.com (Sally McAra) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 11:47:31 +1300 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Here's a comment on the Sasaki scandal from James Ishmael Ford: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind/2013/02/a-few-words-on-zens-sex-scandals-what-might-follow.html Excerpt: "So, I think we need teachers, but they need to be taken down a peg or two. The analogy I've used in the past continues to hold for me. In the Christian tradition the myth of Catholic apostolic succession and bishops as magical successors in a lineage gives way to an Anglican view, where the form of bishop is retained but seen as functional rather than magical. We need Zen teachers in succession who see themselves not as magical inheritors but as long time students entrusted with a terrible and beautiful responsibility. And, of course, that's happening. An unintended consequence, I guess, of the current rash of sex scandals. Not, I suspect, that there was anything much more in mind at the time than sex. And, so, for the perpetrators the hurt of those who've been abused is also an unintended consequence. I feel terrible that many people have been hurt, some terribly, by this abuse of authority. And their healing is primary. But, if there's much good coming with this, it is that we will look at teachers from now on with different eyes. Not completely, of course, there are already those who say "real" teachers are incapable of misbehavior. They are simply putting off their own sad discoveries about what it means to be human..." On 28 February 2013 10:08, Franz Metcalf wrote: > Richard, Lance, Leigh et al., > > Perhaps I am as "old-fashioned and conservative" as Richard, but I just cannot support the actions of *any* teacher, therapist, or guru who abuses his power by engaging in what can never be consensual sexual relationships with his students. Nor can I support an organization that covers up such actions, let alone one that do so systematically over the course of decades. If this is awakened behavior, I say the hell with it. -- Sally McAra From franz at mind2mind.net Sun Mar 3 16:42:15 2013 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 15:42:15 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Dear Denizens, Sally McAra wrote > But, if there's much good coming with this, it is that we will look at > teachers from now on with different eyes. Not completely, of course, > there are already those who say "real" teachers are incapable of > misbehavior. They are simply putting off their own sad discoveries > about what it means to be human..." Yes, this is what Brad Warner has been thinking is the silver lining in all this. His latest is here . Warner is on thin ice (and knows it) when he writes about the choices of the victims and the need for more responsibility on their parts, but even I have to admit he has a point. There is no excuse, in my view, for Sasaki's behavior (or Eido Shimano's or Genpo Merzl's or Taizan Maezumi's or Seung Sahn's or Dainin Katagiri's, etc.). But, then again, people are just people. In the end, and for the good of the dharma, we must accept more responsibility as *sanghas*. That's why, much as Sasaki's behavior dispirits me, I'm perhaps more upset by his Oshos, the whole culture of denial and even procurement they all acceded to. That is just disgusting. As Sally says, to deny this is to put off "sad discoveries about what it means to be human," and "sad discoveries about what it means to be human" is practically the definition of dharma. Franz From sallymcara at gmail.com Sun Mar 3 17:13:30 2013 From: sallymcara at gmail.com (Sally McAra) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 13:13:30 +1300 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hi all, thanks for the response Franz, but just to clarify - perhaps I didn't make it clear enough that the three paragraphs of text were an excerpt from the blog post. So it's not my wording, it's that of James Ford (who is far more eloquent than I could ever be on the topic!). But I agree with him in general. And of course, it's not just *zen* teachers - there are teachers in other Buddhist schools/lineages who have similarly abused the trust that their students placed in them, and sanghas that have failed to speak out against it, or even attempted to justify it. cheers Sally On 4 March 2013 12:42, Franz Metcalf wrote: > Dear Denizens, > > Sally McAra wrote > >> But, if there's much good coming with this, it is that we will look at >> teachers from now on with different eyes. Not completely, of course, >> there are already those who say "real" teachers are incapable of >> misbehavior. They are simply putting off their own sad discoveries >> about what it means to be human..." > From franz at mind2mind.net Sun Mar 3 18:08:25 2013 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 17:08:25 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <99B0E9DA-6A90-4193-B334-5CCEABC9AE6B@mind2mind.net> Dear All, Thanks, Sally, for clarifying that that quote was of Ford, not you. I really respect Ford Roshi on this and other matters. He, indeed, was the first to publish an open letter to the Board of the Zen Studies Society, calling on them to dismiss Shimano Roshi. That puts him squarely on the side of truth, justice, and the American way. Cheers, Franz On Mar 3, 2013, at 4:13 PM, Sally McAra wrote: > Hi all, thanks for the response Franz, but just to clarify - perhaps I > didn't make it clear enough that the three paragraphs of text were an > excerpt from the blog post. So it's not my wording, it's that of James > Ford (who is far more eloquent than I could ever be on the topic!). > But I agree with him in general. And of course, it's not just *zen* > teachers - there are teachers in other Buddhist schools/lineages who > have similarly abused the trust that their students placed in them, > and sanghas that have failed to speak out against it, or even > attempted to justify it. > cheers > Sally > > On 4 March 2013 12:42, Franz Metcalf wrote: >> Dear Denizens, >> >> Sally McAra wrote >> >>> But, if there's much good coming with this, it is that we will look at >>> teachers from now on with different eyes. Not completely, of course, >>> there are already those who say "real" teachers are incapable of >>> misbehavior. They are simply putting off their own sad discoveries >>> about what it means to be human..." >> > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 00:11:05 2013 From: richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 00:11:05 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> On Mar 3, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Franz Metcalf wrote: > There is no excuse, in my view, for Sasaki's behavior (or Eido Shimano's or Genpo Merzl's or Taizan Maezumi's or Seung Sahn's or Dainin Katagiri's, etc.). Unfortunately that's a mighty pregnant "etc." The list of religious authorities who have abused their power over others is almost as long as the list of religious authorities. (The same sentence would be true without the word "religious".) As an aside, when the world-famous J?mez Thunder (the fortnightly newspaper of J?mez Springs, NM, the village of 250 human denizens where Sasaki-owned Bodhi Manda Zen Center is situated) ran a story on Sasaki-roshi on January 1, 2013, it said that this problem was nothing new in Buddhism. After all, said the story, the Buddha himself reportedly sexually abused his disciples. This was news to me, and I wondered where on earth the writer of the story got that idea. What was written in what book that could be misremembered or misinterpreted in such a way that it became that claim? Any speculations? Richard From m.gouin at tsd.ac.uk Mon Mar 4 00:46:07 2013 From: m.gouin at tsd.ac.uk (Margaret Gouin) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 07:46:07 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> , <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C229@lp10.campus.local> > On 04 March 2013 08:11 Richard Hayes wrote: >As an aside, when the world-famous J?mez Thunder (the fortnightly newspaper of J?mez Springs, NM, the village of 250 human denizens where Sasaki-owned Bodhi Manda Zen Center is situated) ran a story on Sasaki-roshi on January 1, 2013, it said that this problem was nothing new in Buddhism. After all, said the story, the Buddha himself reportedly sexually abused his disciples. This was news to me, and I wondered where on earth the writer of the story got that idea. What was written in what book that could be misremembered or misinterpreted in such a way that it became that claim? Any speculations? This would appear to be a garbled reference to something Stephen Batchelor mentioned in a November post on Sweeping Zen (see point 3): http://sweepingzen.com/buddhism-and-sex-the-bigger-picture/ Batchelor gives no reference for the stories he mentions; perhaps someone more familiar with the Pali Canon than I, would be able to locate them. I must say I found Batchelor's article very disappointing; he seems to be saying that there have been sexual scandals since the time of the Buddha so why are we getting so upset now? He wrote the article in the midst of the disclosure of inappropriate behaviour by Tibetan Buddhist teacher Ken McLeod, much of which had been discussed on Sweeping Zen. Margaret ---------------------------------------- Margaret Gouin, PhD (Bristol) Honorary Research Fellow School of Theology, Religious Studies and Islamic Studies University of Wales Trinity Saint David http://tsd.academia.edu/MargaretGouin http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415566360/ From ugg-5 at spro.net Mon Mar 4 09:27:25 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 09:27:25 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004001ce18f5$281ac420$78504c60$@spro.net> ........As an aside, when the world-famous J?mez Thunder (the fortnightly newspaper of J?mez Springs, NM, the village of 250 human denizens where Sasaki-owned Bodhi Manda Zen Center is situated) ran a story on Sasaki-roshi on January 1, 2013, it said that this problem was nothing new in Buddhism. After all, said the story, the Buddha himself reportedly sexually abused his disciples. This was news to me, and I wondered where on earth the writer of the story got that idea. What was written in what book that could be misremembered or misinterpreted in such a way that it became that claim? Any speculations? Richard _______________________________________________ I have also seen this alleged fault of the Buddha in other online regions now and then. If anyone knows where they got this erroneous idea, I too would love to know if any sources in the lit. are cited. Joanna From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Mon Mar 4 09:30:40 2013 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 08:30:40 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C229@lp10.campus.local> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> , <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C229@lp10.campus.local> Message-ID: Denizens, Having just perused Batchelor's article, I did not find it disappointing in the least. In fact, I think he lays out the case for understanding lust in the context of any spiritual community, and makes a solid argument that our biology trumps all rule making. Given what we see across the spectrum of religious/spiritual communities and their struggles with sexual taboos and abuses, I think he's dead right. T Timothy Smith www.wheelwrightassoc.com On Mar 3, 2013, at 11:46 PM, Margaret Gouin wrote: > > This would appear to be a garbled reference to something Stephen Batchelor mentioned in a November post on Sweeping Zen (see point 3): > http://sweepingzen.com/buddhism-and-sex-the-bigger-picture/ > > Batchelor gives no reference for the stories he mentions; perhaps someone more familiar with the Pali Canon than I, would be able to locate them. > > I must say I found Batchelor's article very disappointing; he seems to be saying that there have been sexual scandals since the time of the Buddha so why are we getting so upset now? He wrote the article in the midst of the disclosure of inappropriate behaviour by Tibetan Buddhist teacher Ken McLeod, much of which had been discussed on Sweeping Zen. > > Margaret > > ---------------------------------------- > Margaret Gouin, PhD (Bristol) > Honorary Research Fellow > School of Theology, Religious Studies and Islamic Studies > University of Wales Trinity Saint David > http://tsd.academia.edu/MargaretGouin > http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415566360/ > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From ugg-5 at spro.net Mon Mar 4 09:32:00 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 09:32:00 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C229@lp10.campus.local> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> , <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C229@lp10.campus.local> Message-ID: <005601ce18f5$cc3d0bd0$64b72370$@spro.net> >From Batchelor's article cited by Margaret: "The Buddha himself was accused of having sexual intercourse with the female ascetics Sundari and Cinca. Tradition explains that these accusations were unfounded, and used by those jealous of his success to discredit him." Possibly such stories are located either in the Theragatha or the Therigatha? Joanna From joy.vriens at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 10:15:17 2013 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 18:15:17 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> The only possible element that I can think of is the story of Cincamanavika (http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/verseload.php?verse=176).One could see this story as a case of damage control, a cover up. Accusations of this type could have been made against the Buddha or his monks. And this story could then have been used to discredit the alleged victim and/or as a means to dissuade any possible future accusers. Any woman coming forth with this sort of accusations could then be referred to as a woman with evil intentions like Cincamanavika.Good devout souls would probably not even need a story to prove the purity of the Buddha and his monks. Non Buddhists could still have been convinced because of Sakka's intervention or by the cracking and fissuring swallowing up by the earth.But for modern readers, the intervention of Sakka and his four rats and the opening of the gates of Hell are a very suspicious Deux ex machina, rather pointing to a clumsy cover up attempt. If one believes the Buddha is a fictional character, then it doesn't make sense the literature about the Buddha would mention sexual abuse or other misdemeanors and misconduct by the Buddha. Le 04/03/2013 08:11, Richard Hayes a ?crit : > As an aside, when the world-famous J?mez Thunder (the fortnightly > newspaper of J?mez Springs, NM, the village of 250 human denizens > where Sasaki-owned Bodhi Manda Zen Center is situated) ran a story on > Sasaki-roshi on January 1, 2013, it said that this problem was nothing > new in Buddhism. After all, said the story, the Buddha himself > reportedly sexually abused his disciples. This was news to me, and I > wondered where on earth the writer of the story got that idea. What > was written in what book that could be misremembered or misinterpreted > in such a way that it became that claim? Any speculations? Richard > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 10:47:19 2013 From: richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 10:47:19 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 4, 2013, at 10:15 , Joy Vriens wrote: > If one believes the Buddha is a fictional character, then it doesn't > make sense the literature about the Buddha would mention sexual abuse or > other misdemeanors and misconduct by the Buddha. I believe the Buddha is a fictional character?or to put it more accurately, I believe that most of the stories that have come down to us are highly fictionalized accounts of someone who may have almost existed?but I can easily make sense of stories of accusations being made against a hero, who then rises above the attempts to smear his reputation. Just as Gotama rose about the attempts of his wicked cousin to assassinate him, he rose above the attempts of troubled women to assassinate his character. That makes for excellent fiction. Even if nothing remotely like that ever happened in real life, a good story teller would need to add a bit of tawdry narrative. Like the rest of you, I was thinking the source of the story in the J?mez Thunder was ultimately the Cincamanavika story in the Pali literature, which H.W. Schumann reported in his _The Historical Buddha_, translated from German by M. O?C. Walshe in 1989. I thought it unlikely that the editor of the J?mez Thunder would have read Schumann's book, but now that I see what some of you have reported, I bet the Thunder-walla did read (or read a summary of) Batchelor's piece, which I have not read. Richard From ugg-5 at spro.net Mon Mar 4 11:15:20 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 11:15:20 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> , <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C229@lp10.campus.local> Message-ID: <009401ce1904$3bf50500$b3df0f00$@spro.net> Thanks, Tim--I agree. Batchelor's relating the two truths to the issue of ariyas and putujjanas in this context of taking sexual (and I'd say other) advantages was a surprise for me and persuasively put. Same for the rest of his discussion. IMO there IS an elephant in the room so far not-noted: the rule for same-sex limitation of membership in monastic orders. Celibacy is also unnecessary because it began in antque and later ages to be instituted to prevent hanky panky and therefore loss of dana and reputation of an order. IMO the monasticism idea has to go and probably is already on its way out. Other discussions on the same blog suggest practical organization rules denoting as unlawful sexual access to novices, students, and so forth. "Consenting adults" must be outside the organization or only as equal officers in it. Them's my 2 cents. Joanna --------------------------------------- Denizens, Having just perused Batchelor's article, I did not find it disappointing in the least. In fact, I think he lays out the case for understanding lust in the context of any spiritual community, and makes a solid argument that our biology trumps all rule making. Given what we see across the spectrum of religious/spiritual communities and their struggles with sexual taboos and abuses, I think he's dead right. T Timothy Smith www.wheelwrightassoc.com On Mar 3, 2013, at 11:46 PM, Margaret Gouin wrote: > > This would appear to be a garbled reference to something Stephen Batchelor mentioned in a November post on Sweeping Zen (see point 3): > http://sweepingzen.com/buddhism-and-sex-the-bigger-picture/ > > Batchelor gives no reference for the stories he mentions; perhaps someone more familiar with the Pali Canon than I, would be able to locate them. > > I must say I found Batchelor's article very disappointing; he seems to be saying that there have been sexual scandals since the time of the Buddha so why are we getting so upset now? He wrote the article in the midst of the disclosure of inappropriate behaviour by Tibetan Buddhist teacher Ken McLeod, much of which had been discussed on Sweeping Zen. > > Margaret > > ---------------------------------------- > Margaret Gouin, PhD (Bristol) > Honorary Research Fellow > School of Theology, Religious Studies and Islamic Studies University > of Wales Trinity Saint David http://tsd.academia.edu/MargaretGouin > http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415566360/ > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From ugg-5 at spro.net Mon Mar 4 12:09:09 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 12:09:09 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Another One Bites the Dust References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001801ce190b$c00809d0$40181d70$@spro.net> Re-sending. JK -----Original Message----- From: Jo [mailto:ugg-5 at spro.net] Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 11:35 AM Joy--I never read this one before--thanks. I'm astounded to see in #176 story the earth swallowing motif re: cheating heroine (Sita in the Ramayana) and anti-heroine Cincamanavika----both for the same reasons. Rama suspected Sita of having had sex with Ravana when she was captured and hauled off by Rav. to Sri Lanka. He tested her when she was restored to him, she passed--but "people gossiping" led Rama sgain to put her aside as a cheater. Sita then calls on her mother the earth to take her, and it swallows her up. (Etymologically Sita means "fissure" as made by a plow.) Then we have Cinca--who was a cheater (liar) and exposed after group objections surfaced, she does not pass the test when a monk destroys her disguise, and is swallowed up by the earth. Ain't folklore wunnerful! Best, Joanna ----------------------------------------------- On Behalf Of Joy Vriens Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 10:15 AM [............] Non Buddhists could still have been convinced because of Sakka's intervention or by the cracking and fissuring swallowing up by the earth.But for modern readers, the intervention of Sakka and his four rats and the opening of the gates of Hell are a very suspicious Deux ex machina, rather pointing to a clumsy cover up attempt. [............] From ugg-5 at spro.net Mon Mar 4 11:34:33 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 11:34:33 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ab01ce1906$eae41f40$c0ac5dc0$@spro.net> Joy--I never read this one before--thanks. I'm astounded to see in #176 story the earth swallowing motif re: cheating heroine (Sita in the Ramayana) and anti-heroine Cincamanavika----both for the same reasons. Rama suspected Sita of having had sex with Ravana when she was captured and hauled off by Rav. to Sri Lanka. He tested her when she was restored to him, she passed--but "people gossiping" led Rama sgain to put her aside as a cheater. Sita then calls on her mother the earth to take her, and it swallows her up. (Etymologically Sita means "fissure" as made by a plow.) Then we have Cinca--who was a cheater (liar) and exposed after group objections surfaced, she does not pass the test when a monk destroys her disguise, and is swallowed up by the earth. Ain't folklore wunnerful! Best, Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Joy Vriens Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 10:15 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust The only possible element that I can think of is the story of Cincamanavika (http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/verseload.php?verse=176).One could see this story as a case of damage control, a cover up. Accusations of this type could have been made against the Buddha or his monks. And this story could then have been used to discredit the alleged victim and/or as a means to dissuade any possible future accusers. Any woman coming forth with this sort of accusations could then be referred to as a woman with evil intentions like Cincamanavika.Good devout souls would probably not even need a story to prove the purity of the Buddha and his monks. Non Buddhists could still have been convinced because of Sakka's intervention or by the cracking and fissuring swallowing up by the earth.But for modern readers, the intervention of Sakka and his four rats and the opening of the gates of Hell are a very suspicious Deux ex machina, rather pointing to a clumsy cover up attempt. If one believes the Buddha is a fictional character, then it doesn't make sense the literature about the Buddha would mention sexual abuse or other misdemeanors and misconduct by the Buddha. Le 04/03/2013 08:11, Richard Hayes a ?crit : > As an aside, when the world-famous J?mez Thunder (the fortnightly > newspaper of J?mez Springs, NM, the village of 250 human denizens > where Sasaki-owned Bodhi Manda Zen Center is situated) ran a story on > Sasaki-roshi on January 1, 2013, it said that this problem was nothing > new in Buddhism. After all, said the story, the Buddha himself > reportedly sexually abused his disciples. This was news to me, and I > wondered where on earth the writer of the story got that idea. What > was written in what book that could be misremembered or misinterpreted > in such a way that it became that claim? Any speculations? Richard > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 12:37:00 2013 From: richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 12:37:00 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <009401ce1904$3bf50500$b3df0f00$@spro.net> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> , <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C229@lp10.campus.local> <009401ce1904$3bf50500$b3df0f00$@spro.net> Message-ID: On Mar 4, 2013, at 11:15 , Jo wrote: > Celibacy is also unnecessary because it began in antque and later ages to be instituted to prevent hanky panky and therefore loss of dana and reputation of an order. I think the most likely rationale for requiring celibacy in the early days was that followers of religious communities were beggars (bhik?u), and the feeling was that people with dependents should not be claiming to be renunciants of the worldly life and therefore entitled to beg for a living. As George W. Bush and the Buddha agreed, the best way to avoid having dependent children was to abstain from sexual activity altogether. That is one consideration. The other, of course, is that breaking free of all desires was seen as necessary for liberation from sa?s?ra. Since food and sex were seen as the strongest objects of desire, it made sense to limit food and eliminate sex from the lifestyles of those in earnest pursuit of nirv??a. Americans nowadays don't much like celibacy, partly because they don't much like begging (because they read Ralph Waldo Emerson's "Self-reliance" at an impressionable age) and partly because frankly, Scarlett, they don't give a damn about nirv??a. Richard From lidewij at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 12:50:37 2013 From: lidewij at gmail.com (Lidewij Niezink) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 20:50:37 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C229@lp10.campus.local> <009401ce1904$3bf50500$b3df0f00$@spro.net> Message-ID: I'm thinking men... self-control and men... Men can do better than this. I'm also thinking that we are living in a time where this type of statement by Batchelor either needs to be conclusively backed up or seriously questioned: "2. Wherever people are in a position of power over other people, it is inevitable that some will use that power to pursue and fulfill their own sexual desires." Seriously?! Where does that 'inevitable' come from other than conviction and (research) to confirm or justify that conviction? I really resonate with Ford on this one: "We need Zen teachers in succession who see themselves not as magical inheritors but as long time students entrusted with a terrible and beautiful responsibility." Zen teachers and all teachers for that matter. And I am thinking Sita sings the Blues... a wonderful, free, creative, long documentary which you can all check out here: http://www.sitasingstheblues.com/ cheers, Lidewij *Lidewij Niezink** PhD**, Empathy & Altruism ;-)* Tel: 31 (0)592 769084 | Mobile: 31 (0)6 17746348 lidewij at gmail.com | www.lidewijniezink.com [image: Twitter] [image: LinkedIn] Contact me: [image: Skype] Lidewij.Niezink Get this email app! Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours On 4 March 2013 20:37, Richard Hayes wrote: > On Mar 4, 2013, at 11:15 , Jo wrote: > > > Celibacy is also unnecessary because it began in antque and later ages > to be instituted to prevent hanky panky and therefore loss of dana and > reputation of an order. > > I think the most likely rationale for requiring celibacy in the early days > was that followers of religious communities were beggars (bhik?u), and the > feeling was that people with dependents should not be claiming to be > renunciants of the worldly life and therefore entitled to beg for a living. > As George W. Bush and the Buddha agreed, the best way to avoid having > dependent children was to abstain from sexual activity altogether. That is > one consideration. The other, of course, is that breaking free of all > desires was seen as necessary for liberation from sa?s?ra. Since food and > sex were seen as the strongest objects of desire, it made sense to limit > food and eliminate sex from the lifestyles of those in earnest pursuit of > nirv??a. > > Americans nowadays don't much like celibacy, partly because they don't > much like begging (because they read Ralph Waldo Emerson's "Self-reliance" > at an impressionable age) and partly because frankly, Scarlett, they don't > give a damn about nirv??a. > > Richard > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From lidewij at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 12:58:04 2013 From: lidewij at gmail.com (Lidewij Niezink) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 20:58:04 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C229@lp10.campus.local> <009401ce1904$3bf50500$b3df0f00$@spro.net> Message-ID: Sorry, Sita Sings the Blues is not a documentary of course, it is a movie. Jo, you might like it! *Lidewij Niezink** PhD**, Empathy & Altruism ;-)* Tel: 31 (0)592 769084 | Mobile: 31 (0)6 17746348 lidewij at gmail.com | www.lidewijniezink.com [image: Twitter] [image: LinkedIn] Contact me: [image: Skype] Lidewij.Niezink Get this email app! Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours On 4 March 2013 20:50, Lidewij Niezink wrote: > I'm thinking men... self-control and men... Men can do better than this. > > I'm also thinking that we are living in a time where this type of > statement by Batchelor either needs to be conclusively backed up or > seriously questioned: "2. Wherever people are in a position of power over > other people, it is inevitable that some will use that power to pursue and > fulfill their own sexual desires." Seriously?! Where does that 'inevitable' > come from other than conviction and (research) to confirm or justify that > conviction? > > I really resonate with Ford on this one: "We need Zen teachers in > succession who see themselves not as magical inheritors but as long time > students entrusted with a terrible and beautiful responsibility." Zen > teachers and all teachers for that matter. > > And I am thinking Sita sings the Blues... a wonderful, free, creative, > long documentary which you can all check out here: > http://www.sitasingstheblues.com/ > > cheers, > Lidewij > > *Lidewij Niezink** PhD**, Empathy & Altruism ;-)* > Tel: 31 (0)592 769084 | Mobile: 31 (0)6 17746348 > lidewij at gmail.com | www.lidewijniezink.com > [image: Twitter] [image: LinkedIn] > Contact me: [image: Skype] Lidewij.Niezink > Get this email app! > > Designed with WiseStamp - > Get > yours > > > > On 4 March 2013 20:37, Richard Hayes wrote: > >> On Mar 4, 2013, at 11:15 , Jo wrote: >> >> > Celibacy is also unnecessary because it began in antque and later ages >> to be instituted to prevent hanky panky and therefore loss of dana and >> reputation of an order. >> >> I think the most likely rationale for requiring celibacy in the early >> days was that followers of religious communities were beggars (bhik?u), and >> the feeling was that people with dependents should not be claiming to be >> renunciants of the worldly life and therefore entitled to beg for a living. >> As George W. Bush and the Buddha agreed, the best way to avoid having >> dependent children was to abstain from sexual activity altogether. That is >> one consideration. The other, of course, is that breaking free of all >> desires was seen as necessary for liberation from sa?s?ra. Since food and >> sex were seen as the strongest objects of desire, it made sense to limit >> food and eliminate sex from the lifestyles of those in earnest pursuit of >> nirv??a. >> >> Americans nowadays don't much like celibacy, partly because they don't >> much like begging (because they read Ralph Waldo Emerson's "Self-reliance" >> at an impressionable age) and partly because frankly, Scarlett, they don't >> give a damn about nirv??a. >> >> Richard >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> > > > From jehms at xs4all.nl Mon Mar 4 14:38:42 2013 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 22:38:42 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C229@lp10.campus.local> <009401ce1904$3bf50500$b3df0f00$@spro.net> Message-ID: There are 2 contradicting statements in this discussion 1. teachers are just human 2. teachers have authority and are more inspiring than normal people According to 1 they can be mistaken, according to 2 they teach the truth. Besides this power eroticises as some US presidents have experienced, so to much admiration can make some men (and women?) do things they otherwise would't do. The only solution is to never let the teachers alone with a student. This is standard practice in many institutions. Erik Lidewij Niezink schreef: >I'm thinking men... self-control and men... Men can do better than >this. > >I'm also thinking that we are living in a time where this type of >statement >by Batchelor either needs to be conclusively backed up or seriously >questioned: "2. Wherever people are in a position of power over other >people, it is inevitable that some will use that power to pursue and >fulfill their own sexual desires." Seriously?! Where does that >'inevitable' >come from other than conviction and (research) to confirm or justify >that >conviction? > >I really resonate with Ford on this one: "We need Zen teachers in >succession who see themselves not as magical inheritors but as long >time >students entrusted with a terrible and beautiful responsibility." Zen >teachers and all teachers for that matter. > >And I am thinking Sita sings the Blues... a wonderful, free, creative, >long >documentary which you can all check out here: >http://www.sitasingstheblues.com/ > >cheers, >Lidewij > >*Lidewij Niezink** PhD**, Empathy & Altruism ;-)* >Tel: 31 (0)592 769084 | Mobile: 31 (0)6 17746348 >lidewij at gmail.com | www.lidewijniezink.com >[image: Twitter] [image: >LinkedIn] >Contact me: [image: Skype] Lidewij.Niezink > Get this email app! > > >Designed with WiseStamp - >Get >yours > > > >On 4 March 2013 20:37, Richard Hayes >wrote: > >> On Mar 4, 2013, at 11:15 , Jo wrote: >> >> > Celibacy is also unnecessary because it began in antque and later >ages >> to be instituted to prevent hanky panky and therefore loss of dana >and >> reputation of an order. >> >> I think the most likely rationale for requiring celibacy in the early >days >> was that followers of religious communities were beggars (bhik?u), >and the >> feeling was that people with dependents should not be claiming to be >> renunciants of the worldly life and therefore entitled to beg for a >living. >> As George W. Bush and the Buddha agreed, the best way to avoid having >> dependent children was to abstain from sexual activity altogether. >That is >> one consideration. The other, of course, is that breaking free of all >> desires was seen as necessary for liberation from sa?s?ra. Since food >and >> sex were seen as the strongest objects of desire, it made sense to >limit >> food and eliminate sex from the lifestyles of those in earnest >pursuit of >> nirv??a. >> >> Americans nowadays don't much like celibacy, partly because they >don't >> much like begging (because they read Ralph Waldo Emerson's >"Self-reliance" >> at an impressionable age) and partly because frankly, Scarlett, they >don't >> give a damn about nirv??a. >> >> Richard >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -- Verzonden van mijn Android telefoon met K-9 Mail. From franz at mind2mind.net Mon Mar 4 15:23:35 2013 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:23:35 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C229@lp10.campus.local> <009401ce1904$3bf50500$b3df0f00$@spro.net> Message-ID: <19CAD306-D451-4B6D-AC28-8E50550632D5@mind2mind.net> Gang, I find myself wanting to agree with (and perhaps nuance) everyone's views in this discussion of ariyas and puthujjanas, teachers and students. Yes, teachers have authority and are inspiring. Yes, they are also just humans like the rest of us. Yes, we need to hold them to a very high standard of ethical conduct. Yes, they will still, sometimes, abuse their powers. Especially, as Batchelor observes, in the Vajrayana and Chan/Tien/Son/Zen traditions, where the ariya/puthujjana distinction is so highly (perhaps overly) inscribed. What to do? I don't think we need to absolutely forbid private meetings between teachers and students. We would lose some genuine opportunities for help by doing so. Rather, we need to follow well-established precedents from the healing professions (among which, surely, Buddhist teaching ought to be included). Since the good Mr. Ford has been frequently mentioned in this thread, here are the policies at his center, Boundless Way Zen, policies in the creation of which he was intimately involved: www.boundleswayzen.org/Ethics.doc (To save folks time: these policies include a standing "Ethics and Reconciliation Committee" that is the first safe place to take concerns; clear rules that no teacher-student sexual intimacy is acceptable; confidentiality, not secrecy; and a formal investigative procedure when reconciliation fails.) In my own Forge Guild, I drafted and we adopted something similar. We know failure will occur and we shall have to hope for the best, but we do what we can to discourage that failure. It is like the hadith in which someone ask the Prophet whether it is better to tether one's camel or to trust in God. The Prophet answers, trust in God, but tether your camel. Franz From ugg-5 at spro.net Mon Mar 4 17:50:06 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 17:50:06 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> , <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C229@lp10.campus.local> <009401ce1904$3bf50500$b3df0f00$@spro.net> Message-ID: <007801ce193b$61e81e50$25b85af0$@spro.net> Well put, Rhett (who valued logic above all values, except survival). I'd agree that celibacy was de rigeur for beggars. Otherwise potential contributors might think they were, uh, Welfare Queens --another president? Hadn't thought of that angle, since I?m a ditsy southern lady. As for the Amurrikans of our days: lots of them actually practice celibacy, since they are not partnered and choose to avoid STDs, among other klesas. But boys will be boys?the power of celibate institutions has never been able to control the lower regions of the male mind, except perhaps Tibetan Buddhism, which figured out a way to deal with it?as Stephen Batchelor intimated. However, I bet that even they have had their fubars. Joanna K. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 12:37 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust On Mar 4, 2013, at 11:15 , Jo wrote: > Celibacy is also unnecessary because it began in antque and later ages to be instituted to prevent hanky panky and therefore loss of dana and reputation of an order. I think the most likely rationale for requiring celibacy in the early days was that followers of religious communities were beggars (bhik?u), and the feeling was that people with dependents should not be claiming to be renunciants of the worldly life and therefore entitled to beg for a living. As George W. Bush and the Buddha agreed, the best way to avoid having dependent children was to abstain from sexual activity altogether. That is one consideration. The other, of course, is that breaking free of all desires was seen as necessary for liberation from sa?s?ra. Since food and sex were seen as the strongest objects of desire, it made sense to limit food and eliminate sex from the lifestyles of those in earnest pursuit of nirv??a. Americans nowadays don't much like celibacy, partly because they don't much like begging (because they read Ralph Waldo Emerson's "Self-reliance" at an impressionable age) and partly because frankly, Scarlett, they don't give a damn about nirv??a. Richard _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From ugg-5 at spro.net Mon Mar 4 17:54:43 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 17:54:43 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C229@lp10.campus.local> <009401ce1904$3bf50500$b3df0f00$@spro.net> Message-ID: <007c01ce193c$069281c0$13b78540$@spro.net> Batchelor qualified 'inevitable' by 'some'. Every woman I have ever known, including self, who has ever worked in an office--whether in academia or otherwise--knows whereof Batchelor speaks. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Lidewij Niezink Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 12:51 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust I'm thinking men... self-control and men... Men can do better than this. I'm also thinking that we are living in a time where this type of statement by Batchelor either needs to be conclusively backed up or seriously questioned: "2. Wherever people are in a position of power over other people, it is inevitable that some will use that power to pursue and fulfill their own sexual desires." Seriously?! Where does that 'inevitable' come from other than conviction and (research) to confirm or justify that conviction? I really resonate with Ford on this one: "We need Zen teachers in succession who see themselves not as magical inheritors but as long time students entrusted with a terrible and beautiful responsibility." Zen teachers and all teachers for that matter. And I am thinking Sita sings the Blues... a wonderful, free, creative, long documentary which you can all check out here: http://www.sitasingstheblues.com/ cheers, Lidewij From richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 19:58:49 2013 From: richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 19:58:49 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C229@lp10.campus.local> <009401ce1904$3bf50500$b3df0f00$@spro.net> Message-ID: <94270913-2336-43CB-A4CA-4A9CC9CCF50B@gmail.com> On Mar 4, 2013, at 12:50 , Lidewij Niezink wrote: > I'm also thinking that we are living in a time where this type of statement > by Batchelor either needs to be conclusively backed up or seriously > questioned: "2. Wherever people are in a position of power over other > people, it is inevitable that some will use that power to pursue and > fulfill their own sexual desires." Seriously?! Where does that 'inevitable' > come from other than conviction and (research) to confirm or justify that > conviction? I think Batchelor is stating one of the axioms of our times, which is not so much an evidence-based claim as a caution to people in positions of power that they would do well not to assume that they are immune to temptations. What may seem to a person in a position of authority as a consensual liaison between adults may be seen by others as a person in power feeling entitled to use that power for personal advantage. I see Batchelor deliberately overstating his case as a reminder to men (who are the usual offenders) that power will be more than *some* can handle gracefully. I think it's safe, because platitudinous, to say that it's inevitable that *some* people will succumb to temptation. If he had said that it's inevitable that *all* or *most* men will succumb, then I would agree completely with Lidewij, but I might want to add that it's good to err on the side of caution. Like her, I too resonate with James Ford's careful statement. > And I am thinking Sita sings the Blues Thanks for the reference. Richard From richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 20:11:02 2013 From: richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 20:11:02 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <007801ce193b$61e81e50$25b85af0$@spro.net> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> , <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C229@lp10.campus.local> <009401ce1904$3bf50500$b3df0f00$@spro.net> <007801ce193b$61e81e50$25b85af0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <4CC33293-3032-45B5-822F-21808B7F7816@gmail.com> On Mar 4, 2013, at 17:50 , Joanna wrote: > As for the Amurrikans of our days: lots of them actually practice celibacy, since they are not partnered and choose to avoid STDs, among other klesas. True enough. It's good to remember that all "celibate" means is unmarried. There are lots of unmarried people these days who do not practice sexual abstinence. There are also married couples who practice a kind of vanaprasth?, living under the same roof but not having a sexual relationship with anyone. When you really think about it, there's no point to engage in sex after the age of about thirty-two and a half. Richard From marshallarts at bigpond.com Mon Mar 4 20:12:58 2013 From: marshallarts at bigpond.com (Kate Marshall) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 13:12:58 +1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001ce194f$59e62990$0db27cb0$@com> > I believe the Buddha is a fictional character-or to put it more accurately, I believe that most of the stories that have come down to us are highly fictionalized accounts of someone who may have almost existed... I agree. It seems that just about every significant event in the tale of the Buddha's birth and early years is fictional, or, at least, mythical or symbolic. Leaving aside the unusual nature of Siddhartha's conception and birth, the appearance of a star, the wise sage/s, the prophesies, and so on, which all appear to be expected stock standards of any birth story of a major religious leader of the time, and the more obvious symbolic incidences such as the new born Siddhartha taking lotus steps, making declarations with the Lion's Roar, and, as a young man, leaving the palace by the four gates, there is one quirky observation I'd like to make. The stories concerning the early part of Siddhartha's life have strong parallels with the fairy tale, 'Sleeping Beauty.' In both stories, we have a child born to royalty who, shortly after birth, is visited by magical beings (sages or fairies depending on which story we are looking at). Based on something said by these visitors, the father in each case bans something from the palace and confines the child to the palace. In Siddhartha's case, all sights of old age, sickness, etc are banned, while with Sleeping Beauty it's all the spinning spindles in the kingdom. Each child grows up clueless in this regard. Yet despite all the father's diligent efforts over the years, the child now grown is at last exposed to that which the father is trying so hard to hide, resulting in the very outcome which the father was endeavouring to prevent. While Sleeping Beauty/Buddha sleeps, the whole kingdom sleeps. It's not until Sleeping Beauty/Buddha wakes up that others begin to stir. The main difference between the two stories at this point is that the Buddha awakens through his own internal efforts while Sleeping Beauty has to rely on an external male third party (the Prince). Yet, even this is in line with early Buddhist teachings which state that a woman shouldn't hear the teachings of the Buddha unless there is an intelligent man present to explain them to her! As mentioned, it's just a quirky observation. Kate From richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 20:30:16 2013 From: richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 20:30:16 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <000001ce194f$59e62990$0db27cb0$@com> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> <000001ce194f$59e62990$0db27cb0$@com> Message-ID: On Mar 4, 2013, at 20:12 , "Kate Marshall" wrote: > Yet, even this is in line with early > Buddhist teachings which state that a woman shouldn't hear the teachings of > the Buddha unless there is an intelligent man present to explain them to > her! Fortunately, Dhammadinn?'s slow-witted husband was fortunate to have his quick-witted wife around to explain the teachings of the Buddha to him. Thanks for your quirky observation, Kate. Buddha-l hasn't had a enough quirk lately. Back in the day, it was all quirks and no quarks. Richard Albuquirky, New Mexico From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Mon Mar 4 20:31:27 2013 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 19:31:27 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <4CC33293-3032-45B5-822F-21808B7F7816@gmail.com> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> , <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C229@lp10.campus.local> <009401ce1904$3bf50500$b3df0f00$@spro.net> <007801ce193b$61e81e50$25b85af0$@spro.net> <4CC33293-3032-45B5-822F-21808B7F7816@gmail.com> Message-ID: <708E38CD-23B9-46B3-9C96-BA88A0D3F590@wheelwrightassoc.com> You got some splainin' to do, Ricardo! Timothy Smith www.wheelwrightassoc.com When you really think about it, there's no point to engage in sex after the age of about thirty-two and a half. > > Richard > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From ugg-5 at spro.net Mon Mar 4 22:40:32 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 22:40:32 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Any historians here? Message-ID: <004801ce1963$f46bb840$dd4328c0$@spro.net> Was able to get a fascinating article on Buddhism in the ancient Iranian regions, on ILL. If anyone wants the pdf, just ask. Best, Joanna From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon Mar 4 22:55:47 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 00:55:47 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Any historians here? References: <004801ce1963$f46bb840$dd4328c0$@spro.net> Message-ID: What is the article? I'd like a copy. Dan > Was able to get a fascinating article on Buddhism in the ancient Iranian > regions, on ILL. > > If anyone wants the pdf, just ask. > Best, > > Joanna From joy.vriens at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 00:35:17 2013 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 08:35:17 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5135A035.5070900@gmail.com> Sure stories of rivalry, jealousy and sheer malignancy account for tons of paper (or palm leaves) and ink. I would make a distinction for sexual scandals, where things aren't that clear cut, and where, as the Buddha says, /"Sister, only you and I know whether you are speaking the truth or not,"/. There will always remain a doubt.And if the slightest doubt remains, will the catharsis take place ? That is why in Cincamanavika's story Sakka and the opening of the gates of Hell have to come to the rescue of the Buddha.In the Vinaya, Buddhists have tried to avoid ambiguous situation as much as possible, because Sakka has a very busy schedule. But this story, invented by a clever lawyer, is probably based on real facts. A woman or women could have been spotted, going to a monastery in the evenings, and coming out of it in the mornings. Not necessarily to see the Buddha, but he would have been addressed because he was the manager. This is very likely to have happened, even in Buddhist monasteries. If they became pregnant, the bravest ones could have turned to the manager of the monastery for financial help. In order to dissuade women from doing so,this story could have been invented. If women weren't capable of proving beyond doubt that they had intercourse with a monk, then the truth would only be known by the woman and the monk. Everyone else could only go by their sympathy for the woman's case or by their faith in the monks' integrity. A women who didn't have enough proof would be considered a liar. And not only that, she could only have lied because she wanted to destroy the reputation of a monk and of the sangha, and thereby of the Buddha.A very evil person indeed.This story is a warning to any woman who would consider accusing a monk of having slept with her.She'd better have excellent proof or witnesses, or else she'd better shut up. That's how I read the story. /"Bhikkhu;, one who is not afraid to tell lies, and who does not care what happens in the future existence, will not hesitate to do any evil."/ Le 04/03/2013 18:47, Richard Hayes a ?crit : > I believe the Buddha is a fictional character?or to put it more > accurately, I believe that most of the stories that have come down to > us are highly fictionalized accounts of someone who may have almost > existed?but I can easily make sense of stories of accusations being > made against a hero, who then rises above the attempts to smear his > reputation. Just as Gotama rose about the attempts of his wicked > cousin to assassinate him, he rose above the attempts of troubled > women to assassinate his character. That makes for excellent fiction. > Even if nothing remotely like that ever happened in real life, a good > story teller would need to add a bit of tawdry narrative. From joy.vriens at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 00:38:05 2013 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 08:38:05 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <001801ce190b$c00809d0$40181d70$@spro.net> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> <001801ce190b$c00809d0$40181d70$@spro.net> Message-ID: <5135A0DD.8010508@gmail.com> Hi Jo, Thanks for reminding me the Ramayana. Ah the fragility of a reputation! Le 04/03/2013 20:09, Jo a ?crit : > Rama suspected Sita of having had sex with Ravana when she was captured and > hauled off by Rav. to Sri Lanka. He tested her when she was restored to him, > she passed--but "people gossiping" led Rama sgain to put her aside as a > cheater. Sita then calls on her mother the earth to take her, and it > swallows her up. (Etymologically Sita means "fissure" as made by a plow.) > From joy.vriens at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 00:53:35 2013 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 08:53:35 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <4CC33293-3032-45B5-822F-21808B7F7816@gmail.com> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> , <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C229@lp10.campus.local> <009401ce1904$3bf50500$b3df0f00$@spro.net> <007801ce193b$61e81e50$25b85af0$@spro.net> <4CC33293-3032-45B5-822F-21808B7F7816@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5135A47F.4040407@gmail.com> Le 05/03/2013 04:11, Richard Hayes a ?crit : > When you really think about it, there's no point to engage in sex > after the age of about thirty-two and a half. That was perhaps true in the old days. But nowadays, with new sextoys, gadgets and miracle pills being invented every month, helping us, with the help of Father Market, to explore and exploit all the possibilities Mother Nature has so generously endowed us with, who can resist those wobbly multipronged pink contraptions? From dharmafarer at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 02:20:32 2013 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 17:20:32 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Any historians here? In-Reply-To: <004801ce1963$f46bb840$dd4328c0$@spro.net> References: <004801ce1963$f46bb840$dd4328c0$@spro.net> Message-ID: Dear Joanna, Please send me the article you mentioned. This is one of my areas of interest, esp the early transmission of Buddhism to the west. Thanks, With metta, Piya On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 1:40 PM, Jo wrote: > Was able to get a fascinating article on Buddhism in the ancient Iranian > regions, on ILL. > > If anyone wants the pdf, just ask. > > > > Best, > > Joanna > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- *hp (65) 8211 0879* *The Minding Centre* 170 Upper Bukit Timah Road #11-04 Bukit Timah Shopping Centre Singapore 588179 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org Sutta translation: http://dharmafarer.org From dingirfecho at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 06:30:06 2013 From: dingirfecho at gmail.com (Federico Andino) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 10:30:06 -0300 Subject: [Buddha-l] Any historians here? In-Reply-To: References: <004801ce1963$f46bb840$dd4328c0$@spro.net> Message-ID: Dear Joanna: I would love to see it. Send it to me, if you can. Best regards F On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 6:20 AM, Piya Tan wrote: > Dear Joanna, > > Please send me the article you mentioned. This is one of my areas of > interest, esp the early transmission of Buddhism to the west. > > Thanks, > > With metta, > > Piya > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 1:40 PM, Jo wrote: > > > Was able to get a fascinating article on Buddhism in the ancient Iranian > > regions, on ILL. > > > > If anyone wants the pdf, just ask. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Joanna > > > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > > > -- > *hp (65) 8211 0879* > > *The Minding Centre* > 170 Upper Bukit Timah Road > #11-04 Bukit Timah Shopping Centre > Singapore 588179 > > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org > Sutta translation: http://dharmafarer.org > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From ugg-5 at spro.net Tue Mar 5 08:22:22 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 08:22:22 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <5135A035.5070900@gmail.com> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> <5135A035.5070900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005e01ce19b5$3c0af890$b420e9b0$@spro.net> However, Joy, you left out of this account the perpetrator who bribed her to do it. So you can add to your 'take' on this story that she was obviously a poor defenseless woman, else she'd not be bribable. But along with the sexism of the day, she gets the punishment, not the man who inveigled her into doing it. I prefer to view such stories as moralistic folklore. Joanna -------------------------------- Sure stories of rivalry, jealousy and sheer malignancy account for tons of paper (or palm leaves) and ink. I would make a distinction for sexual scandals, where things aren't that clear cut, and where, as the Buddha says, /"Sister, only you and I know whether you are speaking the truth or not,"/. There will always remain a doubt.And if the slightest doubt remains, will the catharsis take place ? That is why in Cincamanavika's story Sakka and the opening of the gates of Hell have to come to the rescue of the Buddha.In the Vinaya, Buddhists have tried to avoid ambiguous situation as much as possible, because Sakka has a very busy schedule. But this story, invented by a clever lawyer, is probably based on real facts. A woman or women could have been spotted, going to a monastery in the evenings, and coming out of it in the mornings. Not necessarily to see the Buddha, but he would have been addressed because he was the manager. This is very likely to have happened, even in Buddhist monasteries. If they became pregnant, the bravest ones could have turned to the manager of the monastery for financial help. In order to dissuade women from doing so,this story could have been invented. If women weren't capable of proving beyond doubt that they had intercourse with a monk, then the truth would only be known by the woman and the monk. Everyone else could only go by their sympathy for the woman's case or by their faith in the monks' integrity. A women who didn't have enough proof would be considered a liar. And not only that, she could only have lied because she wanted to destroy the reputation of a monk and of the sangha, and thereby of the Buddha.A very evil person indeed.This story is a warning to any woman who would consider accusing a monk of having slept with her.She'd better have excellent proof or witnesses, or else she'd better shut up. That's how I read the story. /"Bhikkhu;, one who is not afraid to tell lies, and who does not care what happens in the future existence, will not hesitate to do any evil."/ Le 04/03/2013 18:47, Richard Hayes a ?crit : > I believe the Buddha is a fictional character?or to put it more > accurately, I believe that most of the stories that have come down to > us are highly fictionalized accounts of someone who may have almost > existed?but I can easily make sense of stories of accusations being > made against a hero, who then rises above the attempts to smear his > reputation. Just as Gotama rose about the attempts of his wicked > cousin to assassinate him, he rose above the attempts of troubled > women to assassinate his character. That makes for excellent fiction. > Even if nothing remotely like that ever happened in real life, a good > story teller would need to add a bit of tawdry narrative. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From ugg-5 at spro.net Tue Mar 5 08:23:26 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 08:23:26 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <5135A0DD.8010508@gmail.com> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> <001801ce190b$c00809d0$40181d70$@spro.net> <5135A0DD.8010508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005f01ce19b5$6233f3f0$269bdbd0$@spro.net> Gossip is King. Today it's purveyed by various so-called news media. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Joy Vriens Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 12:38 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] FW: Another One Bites the Dust Hi Jo, Thanks for reminding me the Ramayana. Ah the fragility of a reputation! Le 04/03/2013 20:09, Jo a ?crit : > Rama suspected Sita of having had sex with Ravana when she was > captured and hauled off by Rav. to Sri Lanka. He tested her when she > was restored to him, she passed--but "people gossiping" led Rama sgain > to put her aside as a cheater. Sita then calls on her mother the earth > to take her, and it swallows her up. (Etymologically Sita means > "fissure" as made by a plow.) > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From joy.vriens at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 10:26:22 2013 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 18:26:22 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <005e01ce19b5$3c0af890$b420e9b0$@spro.net> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> <5135A035.5070900@gmail.com> <005e01ce19b5$3c0af890$b420e9b0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <51362ABE.1040608@gmail.com> Hi Jo, True, I left out the ascetics of other faiths who were jealous of the Buddha's success and who would have encouraged her to do so, but isn't that simply the basic conspiracy theory? This Cincamanavika certainly seemed to know a lot of ascetics, Buddhist or otherwise. One may wonder what was the nature of the relationship between this obviously non virtuous woman hanging around viharas and all these ascetics? And you are right, why didn't anything happen to those who had the idea of conspiring against the Buddhist sangha? The Buddhist ascetics and the ascetics of other faiths (plural) do make me think of guilds (Schopen) who were in competition with each other and try to attack the others' reputation and to compromise each other by any means (what happens in the media is nothing new IMO). But as a group or a guild they don't seem to be accountable. They come up with the idea, bribe a person, and that person gets the full load of karma? At least judging by the story. Where is karma when one needs it? How come groups/corporates go free? Is it because of corporate law or guild law? All is fair in business between guilds? Don't we need to update and re-molarize moralistic folklore a bit? :-) Instead of an innocent/defenseless woman Cincamanavika may well have been the local prostitute. The end of the story could even be an indication for her being lynched by the mob. "Some of them spat on her and drove her out. She ran as fast as she could, and when she had gone some distance the earth cracked and fissured and she was swallowed up." She is obviously demonized in the story, and that is how "demons" come to their end. The earth cracking and fissuring and swallowing her up is where the story crosses over to the myth, because the real end is too horrible to be told... That's another reading ? la Girard ;-) Yes these stories are moralistic folklore, but unfortunately they are more popular (even with well educated Westerners) than solid Buddhism. Don't we all love gossip, speculation and conspiracy theories? I know I do! Joy Le 05/03/2013 16:22, Jo a ?crit : > However, Joy, you left out of this account the perpetrator who bribed her to > do it. So you can add to your 'take' on this story that she was obviously a > poor defenseless woman, else she'd not be bribable. > But along with the sexism of the day, she gets the punishment, not the man > who inveigled her into doing it. > I prefer to view such stories as moralistic folklore. > From ugg-5 at spro.net Tue Mar 5 11:42:43 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 11:42:43 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <51362ABE.1040608@gmail.com> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> <5135A035.5070900@gmail.com> <005e01ce19b5$3c0af890$b420e9b0$@spro.net> <51362ABE.1040608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004a01ce19d1$398f1260$acad3720$@spro.net> "Where is karma when one needs it? How come groups/corporates go free? Is it because of corporate law or guild law? All is fair in business between guilds? Don't we need to update and re-molarize moralistic folklore a bit? :-)" Heheh--right about corporate karma! But too many Buddhists think there is no such thing as collective karma. However, we need to leave the folklore alone. Unless one's writing a novel or story I guess. It can be used to indicate social structures of old. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Joy Vriens Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 10:26 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust Hi Jo, True, I left out the ascetics of other faiths who were jealous of the Buddha's success and who would have encouraged her to do so, but isn't that simply the basic conspiracy theory? This Cincamanavika certainly seemed to know a lot of ascetics, Buddhist or otherwise. One may wonder what was the nature of the relationship between this obviously non virtuous woman hanging around viharas and all these ascetics? And you are right, why didn't anything happen to those who had the idea of conspiring against the Buddhist sangha? The Buddhist ascetics and the ascetics of other faiths (plural) do make me think of guilds (Schopen) who were in competition with each other and try to attack the others' reputation and to compromise each other by any means (what happens in the media is nothing new IMO). But as a group or a guild they don't seem to be accountable. They come up with the idea, bribe a person, and that person gets the full load of karma? At least judging by the story. Where is karma when one needs it? How come groups/corporates go free? Is it because of corporate law or guild law? All is fair in business between guilds? Don't we need to update and re-molarize moralistic folklore a bit? :-) Instead of an innocent/defenseless woman Cincamanavika may well have been the local prostitute. The end of the story could even be an indication for her being lynched by the mob. "Some of them spat on her and drove her out. She ran as fast as she could, and when she had gone some distance the earth cracked and fissured and she was swallowed up." She is obviously demonized in the story, and that is how "demons" come to their end. The earth cracking and fissuring and swallowing her up is where the story crosses over to the myth, because the real end is too horrible to be told... That's another reading ? la Girard ;-) Yes these stories are moralistic folklore, but unfortunately they are more popular (even with well educated Westerners) than solid Buddhism. Don't we all love gossip, speculation and conspiracy theories? I know I do! Joy Le 05/03/2013 16:22, Jo a ?crit : > However, Joy, you left out of this account the perpetrator who bribed > her to do it. So you can add to your 'take' on this story that she was > obviously a poor defenseless woman, else she'd not be bribable. > But along with the sexism of the day, she gets the punishment, not the > man who inveigled her into doing it. > I prefer to view such stories as moralistic folklore. > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 13:35:50 2013 From: richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com (Richard Hayes) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 13:35:50 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <51362ABE.1040608@gmail.com> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> <5135A035.5070900@gmail.com> <005e01ce19b5$3c0af890$b420e9b0$@spro.net> <51362ABE.1040608@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 5, 2013, at 10:26 , Joy Vriens wrote: > Don't we all love gossip, speculation and conspiracy theories? I know I do! Many people have told me that about you. From caodemarte at yahoo.com Tue Mar 5 16:13:05 2013 From: caodemarte at yahoo.com (GM) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 18:13:05 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Any historians here? In-Reply-To: References: <004801ce1963$f46bb840$dd4328c0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <2B8A7874-C6F9-410B-8B0E-FDB14E24C201@yahoo.com> Please send to me if you can. Thanks for your kindness. On Mar 5, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Federico Andino wrote: > Dear Joanna: > I would love to see it. Send it to me, if you can. > > Best regards > > F > > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 6:20 AM, Piya Tan wrote: > >> Dear Joanna, >> >> Please send me the article you mentioned. This is one of my areas of >> interest, esp the early transmission of Buddhism to the west. >> >> Thanks, >> >> With metta, >> >> Piya >> >> On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 1:40 PM, Jo wrote: >> >>> Was able to get a fascinating article on Buddhism in the ancient Iranian >>> regions, on ILL. >>> >>> If anyone wants the pdf, just ask. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Joanna >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> buddha-l mailing list >>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >> >> >> -- >> *hp (65) 8211 0879* >> >> *The Minding Centre* >> 170 Upper Bukit Timah Road >> #11-04 Bukit Timah Shopping Centre >> Singapore 588179 >> >> Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org >> Sutta translation: http://dharmafarer.org >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From joy.vriens at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 00:25:02 2013 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 08:25:02 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> <5135A035.5070900@gmail.com> <005e01ce19b5$3c0af890$b420e9b0$@spro.net> <51362ABE.1040608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5136EF4E.7040604@gmail.com> Richard: > On Mar 5, 2013, at 10:26 , Joy Vriens wrote: > >> Don't we all love gossip, speculation and conspiracy theories? I know I do! > Many people have told me that about you. I hope nothing unfortunate has happened to them since. From stroble at hawaii.edu Wed Mar 6 00:40:24 2013 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (James A Stroble) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 21:40:24 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <5136EF4E.7040604@gmail.com> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> <5135A035.5070900@gmail.com> <005e01ce19b5$3c0af890$b420e9b0$@spro.net> <51362ABE.1040608@gmail.com> <5136EF4E.7040604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130305214024.4e0198cd@Spinoza> On Wed, 06 Mar 2013 08:25:02 +0100 Joy Vriens wrote: > Richard: > > On Mar 5, 2013, at 10:26 , Joy Vriens wrote: > > > >> Don't we all love gossip, speculation and conspiracy theories? I > >> know I do! > > Many people have told me that about you. > > I hope nothing unfortunate has happened to them since. I wonder. Was not being swallowed by the earth the ultimate fate of Oedipus? -- Yours, James Andy Stroble Leeward Community College From joy.vriens at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 01:28:35 2013 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 09:28:35 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <20130305214024.4e0198cd@Spinoza> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> <5135A035.5070900@gmail.com> <005e01ce19b5$3c0af890$b420e9b0$@spro.net> <51362ABE.1040608@gmail.com> <5136EF4E.7040604@gmail.com> <20130305214024.4e0198cd@Spinoza> Message-ID: <5136FE33.8060001@gmail.com> Hi James, There seem to be different versions (in battle, miraculous death). In Oedipus at Colones he indeed dies that way. For collective violence (many recognizable features in our story), see Ren? Girard, La violence et le sacr? (especially the chapter on Oedipus and the following one, I only have the French version). It looks like there was a crisis in Cincamanavika's town, with a tension between groups of ascetics of different faiths, followed by collective violence where Cincamanavika became the emissary victim. Collective violence with one victim taking it all is a real give away. Joy Le 06/03/2013 08:40, James A Stroble a ?crit : > I wonder. Was not being swallowed by the earth the ultimate fate of > Oedipus? From ugg-5 at spro.net Wed Mar 6 08:29:32 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 08:29:32 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <20130305214024.4e0198cd@Spinoza> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> <5135A035.5070900@gmail.com> <005e01ce19b5$3c0af890$b420e9b0$@spro.net> <51362ABE.1040608@gmail.com> <5136EF4E.7040604@gmail.com> <20130305214024.4e0198cd@Spinoza> Message-ID: <002501ce1a7f$67082980$35187c80$@spro.net> I'd need to look it up. Joanna I wonder. Was not being swallowed by the earth the ultimate fate of Oedipus? -- Yours, James Andy Stroble Leeward Community College _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rahula_80 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 6 08:39:00 2013 From: rahula_80 at yahoo.com (Ngawang Dorje) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 07:39:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Any historians here? Message-ID: <1362584340.25083.YahooMailMobile@web140006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I would like to have a copy too. From gary.gach at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 14:00:45 2013 From: gary.gach at gmail.com (Gary Gach) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 13:00:45 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 97, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would be thankful indeed to read a copy http://word.to 415.771.7793 * * On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 11:00 AM, wrote: > Send buddha-l mailing list submissions to > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > buddha-l-owner at mailman.swcp.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of buddha-l digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Another One Bites the Dust (Richard Hayes) > 2. Re: Any historians here? (GM) > 3. Re: Another One Bites the Dust (Joy Vriens) > 4. Re: Another One Bites the Dust (James A Stroble) > 5. Re: Another One Bites the Dust (Joy Vriens) > 6. Re: Another One Bites the Dust (Jo) > 7. Re: Any historians here? (Ngawang Dorje) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 13:35:50 -0700 > From: Richard Hayes > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > On Mar 5, 2013, at 10:26 , Joy Vriens wrote: > > > Don't we all love gossip, speculation and conspiracy theories? I know I > do! > > Many people have told me that about you. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 18:13:05 -0500 > From: GM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Any historians here? > Message-ID: <2B8A7874-C6F9-410B-8B0E-FDB14E24C201 at yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > Please send to me if you can. Thanks for your kindness. > > On Mar 5, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Federico Andino wrote: > > > Dear Joanna: > > I would love to see it. Send it to me, if you can. > > > > Best regards > > > > F > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 6:20 AM, Piya Tan wrote: > > > >> Dear Joanna, > >> > >> Please send me the article you mentioned. This is one of my areas of > >> interest, esp the early transmission of Buddhism to the west. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> With metta, > >> > >> Piya > >> > >> On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 1:40 PM, Jo wrote: > >> > >>> Was able to get a fascinating article on Buddhism in the ancient > Iranian > >>> regions, on ILL. > >>> > >>> If anyone wants the pdf, just ask. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> > >>> Joanna > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> buddha-l mailing list > >>> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> *hp (65) 8211 0879* > >> > >> *The Minding Centre* > >> 170 Upper Bukit Timah Road > >> #11-04 Bukit Timah Shopping Centre > >> Singapore 588179 > >> > >> Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org > >> Sutta translation: http://dharmafarer.org > >> _______________________________________________ > >> buddha-l mailing list > >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 08:25:02 +0100 > From: Joy Vriens > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust > Message-ID: <5136EF4E.7040604 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Richard: > > On Mar 5, 2013, at 10:26 , Joy Vriens wrote: > > > >> Don't we all love gossip, speculation and conspiracy theories? I know I > do! > > Many people have told me that about you. > > I hope nothing unfortunate has happened to them since. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 21:40:24 -1000 > From: James A Stroble > To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust > Message-ID: <20130305214024.4e0198cd at Spinoza> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On Wed, 06 Mar 2013 08:25:02 +0100 > Joy Vriens wrote: > > > Richard: > > > On Mar 5, 2013, at 10:26 , Joy Vriens wrote: > > > > > >> Don't we all love gossip, speculation and conspiracy theories? I > > >> know I do! > > > Many people have told me that about you. > > > > I hope nothing unfortunate has happened to them since. > > I wonder. Was not being swallowed by the earth the ultimate fate of > Oedipus? > > > > -- > Yours, > > James Andy Stroble > Leeward Community College > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 09:28:35 +0100 > From: Joy Vriens > To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust > Message-ID: <5136FE33.8060001 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hi James, > > There seem to be different versions (in battle, miraculous death). In > Oedipus at Colones he indeed dies that way. For collective violence > (many recognizable features in our story), see Ren? Girard, La violence > et le sacr? (especially the chapter on Oedipus and the following one, I > only have the French version). It looks like there was a crisis in > Cincamanavika's town, with a tension between groups of ascetics of > different faiths, followed by collective violence where Cincamanavika > became the emissary victim. Collective violence with one victim taking > it all is a real give away. > Joy > > Le 06/03/2013 08:40, James A Stroble a ?crit : > > > I wonder. Was not being swallowed by the earth the ultimate fate of > > Oedipus? > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 08:29:32 -0700 > From: "Jo" > To: "'Buddhist discussion forum'" > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust > Message-ID: <002501ce1a7f$67082980$35187c80$@spro.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I'd need to look it up. > Joanna > > > I wonder. Was not being swallowed by the earth the ultimate fate of > Oedipus? > > > > > -- > Yours, > > James Andy Stroble > Leeward Community College > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 07:39:00 -0800 (PST) > From: Ngawang Dorje > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Any historians here? > Message-ID: > <1362584340.25083.YahooMailMobile at web140006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I would like to have a copy too. > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > End of buddha-l Digest, Vol 97, Issue 7 > *************************************** > From richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 14:24:14 2013 From: richard.hayes.unm at gmail.com (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 14:24:14 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Any historians here? In-Reply-To: <004801ce1963$f46bb840$dd4328c0$@spro.net> References: <004801ce1963$f46bb840$dd4328c0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <8F6992F3-1858-47FB-B80F-F0CBEF124946@gmail.com> On Mar 4, 2013, at 22:40 , Jo wrote: > Was able to get a fascinating article on Buddhism in the ancient Iranian > regions, on ILL. > > If anyone wants the pdf, just ask. Please ask Joanna directly at her email address rather than sending your request through buddha-l. From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 22:33:55 2013 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 21:33:55 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <005f01ce19b5$6233f3f0$269bdbd0$@spro.net> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> <001801ce190b$c00809d0$40181d70$@spro.net> <5135A0DD.8010508@gmail.com> <005f01ce19b5$6233f3f0$269bdbd0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <89B5EC80-1E64-4A83-A09A-0A8EB2166000@gmail.com> On 04/03/2013 and earlier Jo wrote: >> ... but "people gossiping" led Rama again > to put her [= Sita] aside as a cheater. According to the oldest available Ramayana, namely that of Vaalmiiki, "as a cheater" is not a part of Raama's thinking; cf. Uttara-kaa.n.da (= 7th book), sargas/chapters 42-44 of the critical edition. There is no expression in these chapters that suggests that Raama was angry or felt 'let down'. On the contrary, he is depicted as having eyes full of tears and caring only for his effectiveness as a ruler. He also mentions that Lak.sma.na was a witness to the earlier fire-test which Siitaa passed and which the gods like Indra/Mahendra indicated to be adequate. 'Caesar's wife must be above suspicion/reproach' is the principle behind Raama's decision to abandon Siitaa according to Vaalmiiki and every other Indian Raamaaya.na of which I am aware. Not directed individually at Joanna or anyone else who has participated in this thread: Modern academics, of course, have the freedom to be cynical, but even in exercising that freedom they should check if there are textual indications in support of their interpretation, if the discussion is to be really academic. Otherwise, their statements will not be different from rewriting the Raama/Siitaa story or the Cincaa-maa.navikaa story and arbitrarily deciding that there can never be a noble side to human beings, especially to traditionally respected heroes. Rewriting is not to be rejected entirely, but it should not be presented as history or used as a basis for tenure at a university (except, maybe, in a department of creative writing). a.a. From ugg-5 at spro.net Thu Mar 7 10:15:59 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 10:15:59 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <89B5EC80-1E64-4A83-A09A-0A8EB2166000@gmail.com> References: <512A54C7.30905@ntlworld.com> <55D7D96A-A0F3-4A90-A6E7-F853B00854C6@gmail.com> <5134D6A5.9000802@gmail.com> <001801ce190b$c00809d0$40181d70$@spro.net> <5135A0DD.8010508@gmail.com> <005f01ce19b5$6233f3f0$269bdbd0$@spro.net> <89B5EC80-1E64-4A83-A09A-0A8EB2166000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006c01ce1b57$7057a5a0$5106f0e0$@spro.net> Thanks. Ashok. for your text references and correcting my choice of terms. My comments by the way had nothing to do with "re-writing history" nor with gaining tenure--LOL. I'm a retired prof., not a wannabe. Caesar's wife was supposed to be above reproach, but Caesar certainly was not. In this century, a woman cannot look on Rama's move as cause for admiration. It converted a happy event--the rescue of his wife from Ravana---into tragedy. Of course in the culture of that era, and even today in some locations, it was inconceivable that a husband would support a wrongly judged wife by resigning the throne and going back into exile with her. We all know very well that ancient oral texts were variable--see for example the phenomenon of many Ramayanas. Aside from all this, I was interested to point out the folklore motif involved in the two instances. That I used the wrong term, "cheater," in error does not otherwise call into question the evidence of a tale motif. Moreover, I did not speculate at length about the politics associated with Cincamanavika, as another list member did. That wasn't necessary. I stand by what I said. As for heroes, of late we have seen how the "mighty" have fallen. Regards, JK -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Ashok Aklujkar Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 10:34 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Another One Bites the Dust On 04/03/2013 and earlier Jo wrote: >> ... but "people gossiping" led Rama again > to put her [= Sita] aside as a cheater. According to the oldest available Ramayana, namely that of Vaalmiiki, "as a cheater" is not a part of Raama's thinking; cf. Uttara-kaa.n.da (= 7th book), sargas/chapters 42-44 of the critical edition. There is no expression in these chapters that suggests that Raama was angry or felt 'let down'. On the contrary, he is depicted as having eyes full of tears and caring only for his effectiveness as a ruler. He also mentions that Lak.sma.na was a witness to the earlier fire-test which Siitaa passed and which the gods like Indra/Mahendra indicated to be adequate. 'Caesar's wife must be above suspicion/reproach' is the principle behind Raama's decision to abandon Siitaa according to Vaalmiiki and every other Indian Raamaaya.na of which I am aware. Not directed individually at Joanna or anyone else who has participated in this thread: Modern academics, of course, have the freedom to be cynical, but even in exercising that freedom they should check if there are textual indications in support of their interpretation, if the discussion is to be really academic. Otherwise, their statements will not be different from rewriting the Raama/Siitaa story or the Cincaa-maa.navikaa story and arbitrarily deciding that there can never be a noble side to human beings, especially to traditionally respected heroes. Rewriting is not to be rejected entirely, but it should not be presented as history or used as a basis for tenure at a university (except, maybe, in a department of creative writing). a.a. From ugg-5 at spro.net Fri Mar 8 17:26:03 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 17:26:03 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] , the journal Cultural Anthropology devoted an edition to the topic of Tibetan self-immolations Message-ID: <004601ce1c5c$af2db3e0$0d891ba0$@spro.net> Michael Jerryson posted this on another list. Might be of interest here. -------------------------- Last year, the journal Cultural Anthropology devoted an edition to the topic of Tibetan self-immolations, which is accessible for free online: http://www.culanth.org/?q=node/526 One of the authors here, Charlene Makely, reviewed the film,_Angry Monk: Reflections on Tibet, 2005_ about the rebel 20th century Tibetan intellectual and former Buddhist monk, Gendun Chophel (1903-1951) for the jour. Visual Anthropology. Joanna From ugg-5 at spro.net Fri Mar 8 17:31:35 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 17:31:35 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] , the journal Cultural Anthropology devoted an edition to the topic of Tibetan self-immolations Message-ID: <004701ce1c5d$752eca20$5f8c5e60$@spro.net> Just found another interesting article: http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/collections/journals/ret/pdf/ret_25_12.pdf Also for historians and such here is the main link: http://www.digitalhimalaya.com/collections/journals/ret/index.php?selection= 0 jk -------------------------- Michael Jerryson posted this on another list. Might be of interest here. Last year, the journal Cultural Anthropology devoted an edition to the topic of Tibetan self-immolations, which is accessible for free online: http://www.culanth.org/?q=node/526 One of the authors here, Charlene Makely, reviewed the film,_Angry Monk: Reflections on Tibet, 2005_ about the rebel 20th century Tibetan intellectual and former Buddhist monk, Gendun Chophel (1903-1951) for the jour. Visual Anthropology. Joanna From m.gouin at tsd.ac.uk Sun Mar 10 01:48:41 2013 From: m.gouin at tsd.ac.uk (Margaret Gouin) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 08:48:41 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] American Evangelising Tibetans Message-ID: <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C22B@lp10.campus.local> This is interesting: http://world.time.com/2013/03/08/good-lord-in-china-christian-fundamentalists-target-tibetans/ including the attitude of the Chinese authorities... Margaret ---------------------------------------- Margaret Gouin, PhD (Bristol) Honorary Research Fellow School of Theology, Religious Studies and Islamic Studies University of Wales Trinity Saint David http://tsd.academia.edu/MargaretGouin http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415566360/ From chris.fynn at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 22:30:51 2013 From: chris.fynn at gmail.com (Christopher Fynn) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 11:30:51 +0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] American Evangelising Tibetans In-Reply-To: <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C22B@lp10.campus.local> References: <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7F62F64C22B@lp10.campus.local> Message-ID: On 10/03/2013, Margaret Gouin wrote: > This is interesting: > http://world.time.com/2013/03/08/good-lord-in-china-christian-fundamentalists-target-tibetans/ > > including the attitude of the Chinese authorities... > > Margaret There was a recent article in the Guardian on the same topic: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/21/going-undercover-christian-evangelists-tibet This is interesting too: http://earlytibet.com/2007/12/02/christianity-in-early-tibet/ From ugg-5 at spro.net Mon Mar 11 18:03:27 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 18:03:27 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] This year's Mahakumbhmela Message-ID: <001e01ce1eb5$05fa32c0$11ee9840$@spro.net> Happens every 144 years. Last time it happened Gen. Grant was President. Although it is not a Buddhist mela, Zuangzhang is said to have visited it, so there's the Buddhist ref. for this list. One wonders if it was going on in the Buddha's time-I sort of doubt it. This is one of the better articles I've seen on this vast pilgrimage-written by a Muslim novelist. http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/03/04/carnival-of-the-soul-at-ind ia-s-maha-kumbh-mela.html or http://tinyurl.com/a7royu4 Joanna From dharmafarer at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 21:35:45 2013 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 11:35:45 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] This year's Mahakumbhmela In-Reply-To: <001e01ce1eb5$05fa32c0$11ee9840$@spro.net> References: <001e01ce1eb5$05fa32c0$11ee9840$@spro.net> Message-ID: Jo, I have yet to receive the Iranian journal article you offered. This is my 3rd email, tatiyampi, as the Pali goes. With metta, even if you forget to send, Piya On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 8:03 AM, Jo wrote: > Happens every 144 years. Last time it happened Gen. Grant was President. > Although it is not a Buddhist mela, Zuangzhang is said to have visited it, > so there's the Buddhist ref. for this list. > One wonders if it was going on in the Buddha's time-I sort of doubt it. > This > is one of the better articles I've seen on this vast pilgrimage-written by > a > Muslim novelist. > > > http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/03/04/carnival-of-the-soul-at-ind > ia-s-maha-kumbh-mela.html > or > http://tinyurl.com/a7royu4 > > Joanna > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- *hp (65) 8211 0879* *The Minding Centre* 170 Upper Bukit Timah Road #11-04 Bukit Timah Shopping Centre Singapore 588179 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org Sutta translation: http://dharmafarer.org From ugg-5 at spro.net Mon Mar 11 21:43:49 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 21:43:49 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] This year's Mahakumbhmela In-Reply-To: References: <001e01ce1eb5$05fa32c0$11ee9840$@spro.net> Message-ID: <002601ce1ed3$cf621f10$6e265d30$@spro.net> Piya, I sent it to you twice! Did you check to see if my mail went to your spam file? Is my email address on your safe senders list? Check your spam folder and let me know if you found it. If not, you need to send me a different email address. Metta- more, Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Piya Tan Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 9:36 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] This year's Mahakumbhmela Jo, I have yet to receive the Iranian journal article you offered. This is my 3rd email, tatiyampi, as the Pali goes. With metta, even if you forget to send, Piya On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 8:03 AM, Jo wrote: > Happens every 144 years. Last time it happened Gen. Grant was President. > Although it is not a Buddhist mela, Zuangzhang is said to have visited > it, so there's the Buddhist ref. for this list. > One wonders if it was going on in the Buddha's time-I sort of doubt it. > This > is one of the better articles I've seen on this vast > pilgrimage-written by a Muslim novelist. > > > http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/03/04/carnival-of-the-soul- > at-ind > ia-s-maha-kumbh-mela.html 3/04/carnival-of-the-soul-at-india-s-maha-kumbh-mela.html> > or > http://tinyurl.com/a7royu4 > > Joanna > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- *hp (65) 8211 0879* *The Minding Centre* 170 Upper Bukit Timah Road #11-04 Bukit Timah Shopping Centre Singapore 588179 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org Sutta translation: http://dharmafarer.org _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From ugg-5 at spro.net Tue Mar 26 18:26:11 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 18:26:11 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sri Lanka monks form RSS-like group Message-ID: <003201ce2a81$af8acca0$0ea065e0$@spro.net> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21840600 From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Mar 26 21:25:42 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 23:25:42 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sri Lanka monks form RSS-like group References: <003201ce2a81$af8acca0$0ea065e0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <4B570B42BAC64753A8A654EAA38872C0@Dan> Typical one-sided BBC report. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jo" Subject: [Buddha-l] Sri Lanka monks form RSS-like group > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21840600 From dmahinda at yahoo.com Wed Mar 27 09:22:52 2013 From: dmahinda at yahoo.com (Mahinda Deegalle) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 08:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Sri Lanka monks form RSS-like group In-Reply-To: <4B570B42BAC64753A8A654EAA38872C0@Dan> References: <003201ce2a81$af8acca0$0ea065e0$@spro.net> <4B570B42BAC64753A8A654EAA38872C0@Dan> Message-ID: <1364397772.6801.YahooMailNeo@web122103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I agree with Dan on this. We need a broader perspective of socio-religious contexts of this movement, bodu bala sena, in evaluating its rather controversial rhetoric. Thanks Mahinda Deegalle ? Dr. Mahinda Deegalle Senior Lecturer in the Study of Religions and Ethics School of Humanities and Cultural Industries Bath Spa University Newton Park Bath BA2 9BN, United Kingdom Phone: 44+(0)1225-875429(W); Fax: 44+(0)1225-875605(W) Blog: http://bathspakoreansummer2008.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: Dan Lusthaus To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 3:25 AM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Sri Lanka monks form RSS-like group Typical one-sided BBC report. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jo" Subject: [Buddha-l] Sri Lanka monks form RSS-like group > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21840600 _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From ugg-5 at spro.net Wed Mar 27 10:18:15 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 10:18:15 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Sri Lanka monks form RSS-like group References: <003201ce2a81$af8acca0$0ea065e0$@spro.net> <4B570B42BAC64753A8A654EAA38872C0@Dan> <1364397772.6801.YahooMailNeo@web122103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001ce2b06$afe631a0$0fb294e0$@spro.net> Hello Dr. Deegalle, The article notes some serious concerns. What is the broader perspective that's needed? As you are Sri Lankan, I'd be interested to know what you see as the issues involved, so far as this monk political organization is concerned? Surely, Buddhism in Sri Lanka is not in danger.................or is it? Best wishes, Joanna Kirkpatrick -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Mahinda Deegalle Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 9:23 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Sri Lanka monks form RSS-like group I agree with Dan on this. We need a broader perspective of socio-religious contexts of this movement, bodu bala sena, in evaluating its rather controversial rhetoric. Thanks Mahinda Deegalle ? Dr. Mahinda Deegalle Senior Lecturer in the Study of Religions and Ethics School of Humanities and Cultural Industries Bath Spa University Newton Park Bath BA2 9BN, United Kingdom Phone: 44+(0)1225-875429(W); Fax: 44+(0)1225-875605(W) Blog: http://bathspakoreansummer2008.blogspot.com From dmahinda at yahoo.com Wed Mar 27 13:02:25 2013 From: dmahinda at yahoo.com (Mahinda Deegalle) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 12:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Sri Lanka monks form RSS-like group In-Reply-To: <000001ce2b06$afe631a0$0fb294e0$@spro.net> References: <003201ce2a81$af8acca0$0ea065e0$@spro.net> <4B570B42BAC64753A8A654EAA38872C0@Dan> <1364397772.6801.YahooMailNeo@web122103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <000001ce2b06$afe631a0$0fb294e0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <1364410945.90991.YahooMailNeo@web122104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Dear Jo, There are a lot of issues concerning the behaviour of Buddhist themselves (for example, corruption in the sangha, people claiming to be Buddhas, one monk claiming that the Buddha was born, lived, preached and died in Sri Lanka, etc.). The Bodu Bala Sena claims that allowing those things to happen (degeneration or decline) is a short cut to the destruction of Buddhism in the country. The organization claims to purify the distortions of the Buddha's teaching which challenge the Theravada way of life. Following is my translation of the five resolutions that the Bodu Bala Sena presented and approved by the assembly at the first public gathering in BMICH Colombo on 28th July 2012.This inaugural conference had over 5000 people (1000 monks and 200 bhikkhunis) in attendance. They had come from various regions of the country. It claims to adopt an activist path in the interest of protecting Buddhism. The Five Resolutions of the Bodu Bala Sena: (1)??????? The Bodu Bala Sena asserted the need of defining what is meant by ?protection of Buddhasasana? in the Sri Lankan constitution. It also demanded to implement the resolutions of the 1956 Buddhist Commission Report. (2)??????? Prohibiting works that damage ancient heritage and introducing a bill to prohibit unacceptable creative works. (3)??????? Dedicating full moon days and Sundays for the dhamma education. Prohibiting holding tuition classes until 2 pm on Sundays. Granting teaching appointments to those who have passed Dharmacariya examination. Sinhala, Buddhism and History teaching in Schools. Teaching Buddhism and Sinhala in International Schools. (4)??????? Government projects intended to reduce the Sri Lankan population must be stopped. Within a month closing the family planning units. Prohibiting sending women to the Middle East for slavery. (5)??????? Protecting Buddhist rights. Introducing one legal system for all Sri Lankans. (a) Dutch and English Law, (b) Tesavalame Law, and (3) Sharia Law Hope this is useful. Sincerely Mahinda Deegalle ? Dr. Mahinda Deegalle Senior Lecturer in the Study of Religions and Ethics School of Humanities and Cultural Industries Bath Spa University Newton Park Bath BA2 9BN, United Kingdom Phone: 44+(0)1225-875429(W); Fax: 44+(0)1225-875605(W) Blog: http://bathspakoreansummer2008.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: Jo To: Buddha-L Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:18 PM Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Sri Lanka monks form RSS-like group Hello Dr. Deegalle, The article notes some serious concerns. What is the broader perspective that's needed? As you are Sri Lankan, I'd be interested to know what you see as the issues involved, so far as this monk political organization is concerned? Surely, Buddhism in Sri Lanka is not in danger.................or is it? Best wishes, Joanna Kirkpatrick -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Mahinda Deegalle Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 9:23 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Sri Lanka monks form RSS-like group I agree with Dan on this. We need a broader perspective of socio-religious contexts of this movement, bodu bala sena, in evaluating its rather controversial rhetoric. Thanks Mahinda Deegalle ? Dr. Mahinda Deegalle Senior Lecturer in the Study of Religions and Ethics School of Humanities and Cultural Industries Bath Spa University Newton Park Bath BA2 9BN, United Kingdom Phone: 44+(0)1225-875429(W); Fax: 44+(0)1225-875605(W) Blog: http://bathspakoreansummer2008.blogspot.com _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From gbungo at earthlink.net Wed Mar 27 13:15:10 2013 From: gbungo at earthlink.net (Gregory Bungo) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 14:15:10 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Sri Lanka monks form RSS-like group Message-ID: <1101773.1364411711061.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi everyone, I have some concerns about some of the resolutions. Mahinda Deegalle wrote: >>The Five Resolutions of the Bodu Bala Sena: > >(2)??????? Prohibiting works that damage ancient heritage and introducing a bill to >prohibit unacceptable creative works. Prohibiting unacceptable creative works? Censorship? Really? >(4)??????? Government projects intended to reduce the Sri Lankan population must be >stopped. Within a month closing the family planning units. Prohibiting sending >women to the Middle East for slavery. One of the biggest problems facing the contemporary world is overpopulation. Human overpopulation causes or worsens major environmental problems, it increases emotional stress, which often leads to violence, and it intensifies poverty. A low income family with 4 or 5 children has a much harder time making ends meet than a family with 1 or 2 children. Indeed, desperate impoverished people are more likely to seek slave-like employment in the Middle East. Regards, Greg Bungo From ugg-5 at spro.net Wed Mar 27 15:15:27 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 15:15:27 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Sri Lanka monks form RSS-like group In-Reply-To: <1364410945.90991.YahooMailNeo@web122104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <003201ce2a81$af8acca0$0ea065e0$@spro.net> <4B570B42BAC64753A8A654EAA38872C0@Dan> <1364397772.6801.YahooMailNeo@web122103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <000001ce2b06$afe631a0$0fb294e0$@spro.net> <1364410945.90991.YahooMailNeo@web122104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002501ce2b30$34f48df0$9edda9d0$@spro.net> Thanks for posting BBS's provisions. Very useful. (4) Government projects intended to reduce the Sri Lankan population must be stopped. Within a month closing the family planning units. Prohibiting sending women to the Middle East for slavery. According to what I have read, this BBS provision concerns the suspected habit of the Muslim population trying to outbreed/out-populate Sinhalese Buddhists. My comment: I have no research evidence on whether this Muslim proclivity is factual in Sri Lanka. However, I DO know that the current brand of Islam being pushed world-wide, thanks to Saudi money in every country with Muslim populations --the Wahhabi sect of Islam---forbids using contraception and limiting fertility in any way. (Bangladesh is one of the countries that finally decided to fight this.) Muslim women are supposed to keep putting out kids until they either die, or go sterile. As for prohibiting sending women to the ME: Sri Lanka is not the only country that has been allowing this practice. India and Nepal are big practitioners of allowing the shipping of poverty-level women for alleged jobs in the ME and Gulf states. They all know by now what happens to these women--they are physically maltreated, rarely receive their pay, are worked like slaves, trapped from fleeing home because their passports are lifted by the employers, and often they are raped and used for sex by male employers. I do know about this practice in the case of Nepal: The Nepali government knows very well what the future of these women is or can become. There are two main obstacles to enforcing any laws preventing this (IF there ARE any laws): a) poor women are easily lured by word of employment in the Gulf States, let's say, and they clamor to get passports and borrow heavily to go; b) touts/gangsters operate such employment programs, putting their victims in debt for the transportation, visas, and more. (b1) Such organized action is very often owned by rich moneybags in both Nepal and India--men with "connections"--thus the governments do nothing significant to stop it!!! Now I want to ask: Has Sri Lanka passed laws against this practice as yet? How will the BBS monks be able to get any enforcement of existing laws, or get laws passed, when they probably will need to go against the very moneybags who contribute generously to the sangha? Have they figured out how this trafficking of women operates in their country? Are they blaming the Muslims for it? Do Sri Lankan Muslims have anything proven to do with this? (5) Protecting Buddhist rights. Introducing one legal system for all Sri Lankans. (a) Dutch and English Law, (b) Tesavalame Law, and (3) Sharia Law. I personally support all efforts everywhere to maintain one legal system applicable to all citizens, of any country. Would this provision entail writing a new constitution for the country? Such a constitution should protect all citizens' rights, not just Buddhist rights. I want to add, as one who has devoted a lot of study to aspects of contemporary political Islam, that in the past decade (if not more) Wahhabist/Salafist propaganda among Muslims pushing calls for adding shari'a to national legal systems has been going on. Has this been happening in Sri Lanka as well? Joanna From chris.fynn at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 00:49:45 2013 From: chris.fynn at gmail.com (Christopher Fynn) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 12:49:45 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Sri Lanka monks form RSS-like group In-Reply-To: <1364410945.90991.YahooMailNeo@web122104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <003201ce2a81$af8acca0$0ea065e0$@spro.net> <4B570B42BAC64753A8A654EAA38872C0@Dan> <1364397772.6801.YahooMailNeo@web122103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <000001ce2b06$afe631a0$0fb294e0$@spro.net> <1364410945.90991.YahooMailNeo@web122104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 28/03/2013, Mahinda Deegalle wrote: .... > Following is my translation of the five resolutions that the Bodu Bala Sena > presented and approved by the assembly at the first public gathering in > BMICH Colombo on 28th July 2012.This inaugural conference had over 5000 > people (1000 monks and 200 bhikkhunis) in attendance. They had come from > various regions of the country. ... "200 bhikkhunis"??? - Has the bhikkhuni ordination been re-established in Sri Lanka? From chris.fynn at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 01:09:06 2013 From: chris.fynn at gmail.com (Christopher Fynn) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 13:09:06 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Sri Lanka monks form RSS-like group In-Reply-To: <002501ce2b30$34f48df0$9edda9d0$@spro.net> References: <003201ce2a81$af8acca0$0ea065e0$@spro.net> <4B570B42BAC64753A8A654EAA38872C0@Dan> <1364397772.6801.YahooMailNeo@web122103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <000001ce2b06$afe631a0$0fb294e0$@spro.net> <1364410945.90991.YahooMailNeo@web122104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <002501ce2b30$34f48df0$9edda9d0$@spro.net> Message-ID: On 28/03/2013, Jo wrote: > Thanks for posting BBS's provisions. Very useful. > > (4) Government projects intended to reduce the Sri Lankan population must be > stopped. Within a month closing the family planning units. Prohibiting > sending women to the Middle East for slavery. > > According to what I have read, this BBS provision concerns the suspected > habit of the Muslim population trying to outbreed/out-populate Sinhalese > Buddhists. My comment: > I have no research evidence on whether this Muslim proclivity is factual in > Sri Lanka. > However, I DO know that the current brand of Islam being pushed world-wide, > thanks to Saudi money in every country with Muslim populations --the Wahhabi > sect of Islam---forbids using contraception and limiting fertility in any > way. (Bangladesh is one of the countries that finally decided to fight > this.) Muslim women are supposed to keep putting out kids until they either > die, or go sterile. The solution is to ensure that all Sri Lankan children, girls and boys, Buddhist, Hindu, Christian and Muslim, receive a good, *secular*, education up to a minimum of higher secondary school. Forbidding contraception amongst Buddhist women would clearly be a completely retrogressive step. Ensuring that all girls (esp. Muslim girls) receive a good education - and employment opportunities - would surely keep family sizes down. > As for prohibiting sending women to the ME: > Sri Lanka is not the only country that has been allowing this practice. > India and Nepal are big practitioners of allowing the shipping of > poverty-level women for alleged jobs in the ME and Gulf states. + The Philippines and Indonesia > They all > know by now what happens to these women--they are physically maltreated, > rarely receive their pay, are worked like slaves, trapped from fleeing home > because their passports are lifted by the employers, and often they are > raped and used for sex by male employers. > I do know about this practice in the case of Nepal: The Nepali government > knows very well what the future of these women is or can become. There are > two main obstacles to enforcing any laws preventing this (IF there ARE any > laws): > a) poor women are easily lured by word of employment in the Gulf States, > let's say, and they clamor to get passports and borrow heavily to go; b) > touts/gangsters operate such employment programs, putting their victims in > debt for the transportation, visas, and more. (b1) Such organized action is > very often owned by rich moneybags in both Nepal and India--men with > "connections"--thus the governments do nothing significant to stop it!!! > > Now I want to ask: > Has Sri Lanka passed laws against this practice as yet? How will the BBS > monks be able to get any enforcement of existing laws, or get laws passed, > when they probably will need to go against the very moneybags who contribute > generously to the sangha? Have they figured out how this trafficking of > women operates in their country? Are they blaming the Muslims for it? Do > Sri Lankan Muslims have anything proven to do with this? > (5) Protecting Buddhist rights. Introducing one legal system for all > Sri > Lankans. (a) Dutch and English Law, (b) Tesavalame Law, and (3) Sharia Law. > > I personally support all efforts everywhere to maintain one legal system > applicable to all citizens, of any country. Would this provision entail > writing a new constitution for the country? Such a constitution should > protect all citizens' rights, not just Buddhist rights. > > I want to add, as one who has devoted a lot of study to aspects of > contemporary political Islam, that in the past decade (if not more) > Wahhabist/Salafist propaganda among Muslims pushing calls for adding shari'a > to national legal systems has been going on. Has this been happening in Sri > Lanka as well? > > Joanna From ugg-5 at spro.net Thu Mar 28 08:15:26 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 08:15:26 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Sri Lanka monks form RSS-like group In-Reply-To: References: <003201ce2a81$af8acca0$0ea065e0$@spro.net> <4B570B42BAC64753A8A654EAA38872C0@Dan> <1364397772.6801.YahooMailNeo@web122103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <000001ce2b06$afe631a0$0fb294e0$@spro.net> <1364410945.90991.YahooMailNeo@web122104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003f01ce2bbe$b20a4080$161ec180$@spro.net> I was wondering about that too. Joanna ------------------------ On 28/03/2013, Mahinda Deegalle wrote: .... > Following is my translation of the five resolutions that the Bodu Bala > Sena presented and approved by the assembly at the first public > gathering in BMICH Colombo on 28th July 2012.This inaugural conference > had over 5000 people (1000 monks and 200 bhikkhunis) in attendance. > They had come from various regions of the country. ... Chris asks: "200 bhikkhunis"??? - Has the bhikkhuni ordination been re-established in Sri Lanka? _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From franz at mind2mind.net Thu Mar 28 10:55:09 2013 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 09:55:09 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Sri Lanka monks form RSS-like group In-Reply-To: <003f01ce2bbe$b20a4080$161ec180$@spro.net> References: <003201ce2a81$af8acca0$0ea065e0$@spro.net> <4B570B42BAC64753A8A654EAA38872C0@Dan> <1364397772.6801.YahooMailNeo@web122103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <000001ce2b06$afe631a0$0fb294e0$@spro.net> <1364410945.90991.YahooMailNeo@web122104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <003f01ce2bbe$b20a4080$161ec180$@spro.net> Message-ID: Chris, Joanna et al., >> "200 bhikkhunis"??? - Has the bhikkhuni ordination been re-established in >> Sri Lanka? > I was wondering about that too. I believe the first 20th century bhikkhunis in the Sri Lanka tradition were ordained here in my home town of Los Angeles, in 1988, at Hsi Lai temple. Among them was Ayya Khema. This lineage did not, however, take hold in Sri Lanka. The lineage was only really re-established there when the bhikkhunis ordained in Sarnath in 1996 (with Korean bhik?us and bhik?u??s) and Bodhgaya in 1998 (with Sri Lankan bhikkhus and Taiwanese bhik?u??s) returned and held an ordination with the support of (some of) the Sri Lankan bhikkhu-sangha in 1998. Since the latter two ordinations included Taiwanese bhik?u??s, a lineage originated by Sri Lankan bhikkhunis, the lineage could now be said to be unbroken from the time of its establishment in the 3rd century BCE. Since 1998, perhaps as many as 1000 bhikkhunis have been fully ordained in Sri Lanka. Thailand lags far behind, due to bhikkhu resistance, but the bhikkhuni lineage in Thailand was, I believe, never anything near as venerable or prominent as that in Sri Lanka. Franz From jhubbard at smith.edu Sun Mar 31 09:09:44 2013 From: jhubbard at smith.edu (Jamie Hubbard) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 11:09:44 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Burmese Buddhist anti-Muslim nationalism: 969? Message-ID: Hello-- there has been a lot of reporting on the Buddhist-Muslim strife in Burma these days, and it seems a group either labeled or using "969" as its slogan is spearheading the rhetoric and violence. Here is one link: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/myanmar/130326/969-anti-muslim-buddhist-riots-burma According to this article: "Wirathu [the main Buddhist bad guy in most reports] credits local Muslims with inspiring 969: for decades, Muslim merchants have decorated their signage with the numbers 786, an allusion to Islamic numerology." I have looked around a bit and the only thing I could come up with at all for 969 is: "9 stands for the nine special attributes of Lord Buddha, 6 for the six special attributes of Buddha's teachings and the last 9 for the nine special attributes of the Buddhist Sangha or Order." http://www.maungzarni.com/2013/03/stop-969-burmas-fastest-growing-neo.html I have no idea at all of these supposed attributes, and I also have not had time to check the cred of any of the reporting sources, the alleged military and government collusion, Leaving aside all the vitriol of this situation (in the anti-Buddhist rhetoric monks are called "Nazi skin-heads," and Aung San Suu Kyi does not fare well either), I wonder if anybody out there can give any substance to the numerology, either Buddhist or Muslim. It also reminds us that not all Buddhist nationalisms are the same. Particularly in places where you have slogans like, "To be Burmese is to be Buddhist" (substitute Khmer, Sri Lankan, Thai, and a host of other places) things do get ugly. I pray that the right thing happens for those directly involved and also that this does not derail the liberalization process in Burma. In any case, any numerologists out there? Jamie Hubbard Yehan Numata Professor of Buddhist Studies Director, Concentration in Buddhist Studies Chair, Religion Department Smith College From selwyn at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 31 09:33:52 2013 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 16:33:52 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Burmese Buddhist anti-Muslim nationalism: 969? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51585760.10907@ntlworld.com> Jamie, I think the numbers are derived from the standard Pali (and Sanskrit) chants in praise of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. So for the first: iti pi so bhagav? araha? samm?sambuddho he is the Bhagava because he is 1. an arahat, 2. a perfectly awakened one, 3. perfect in knowledge and conduct and so on. Depending how you parse the list there are nine or ten Buddhagu?a. Similarly the other numbers are derived from sv?kkh?to Bhagavat? dhammo etc. and supa?ipanno Bhagavato s?vakasa?gho etc. Pretty standard. Lance Cousins > Hello-- there has been a lot of reporting on the Buddhist-Muslim strife in > Burma these days, and it seems a group either labeled or using "969" as its > slogan is spearheading the rhetoric and violence. Here is one link: > > http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/myanmar/130326/969-anti-muslim-buddhist-riots-burma > > > According to this article: "Wirathu [the main Buddhist bad guy in most > reports] credits local Muslims with inspiring 969: for decades, Muslim > merchants have decorated their signage with the numbers 786, an allusion to > Islamic numerology." > > I have looked around a bit and the only thing I could come up with at all > for 969 is: "9 stands for the nine special attributes of Lord Buddha, 6 for > the six special attributes of Buddha's teachings and the last 9 for the > nine special attributes of the Buddhist Sangha or Order." > http://www.maungzarni.com/2013/03/stop-969-burmas-fastest-growing-neo.html > > I have no idea at all of these supposed attributes, and I also have not had > time to check the cred of any of the reporting sources, the alleged > military and government collusion, > > Leaving aside all the vitriol of this situation (in the anti-Buddhist > rhetoric monks are called "Nazi skin-heads," and Aung San Suu Kyi does not > fare well either), I wonder if anybody out there can give any substance to > the numerology, either Buddhist or Muslim. > > It also reminds us that not all Buddhist nationalisms are the same. > Particularly in places where you have slogans like, "To be Burmese is to be > Buddhist" (substitute Khmer, Sri Lankan, Thai, and a host of other places) > things do get ugly. I pray that the right thing happens for those directly > involved and also that this does not derail the liberalization process in > Burma. > > In any case, any numerologists out there? > From ugg-5 at spro.net Sun Mar 31 11:22:45 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 11:22:45 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Burmese Buddhist anti-Muslim nationalism: 969? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004301ce2e34$5c21d020$14657060$@spro.net> Hi Jamie, 786 is number code for the phrase, "Bismillah ir Rahim ir Rahman" "In the name of God, the beneficent (gracious), the merciful (or compassionate)" --translations vary, as usual. This phrase is recited before anyone begins anything. Various Muslim explanations online say that someone encoded the entire Arabic alphabet numerically. I doubt if the idea of numerology (magic) cuts it today. I found one Salafi site condemning its use as 'innovation'. Maybe back in the day some Muslims played with numerology, just as some also toyed with astrology. What I found (not time for a huge search) suggests that this is a Shi'a innovation, but not sure of that either. My late Indian husband's Sunni family always wrote this number at the top of all letters to him. It's also at the very top of a Muslim Burmese poster I have, placed just under the star and inside the crescent moon (star & crescent being a common Muslim visual identity trope). However, 786 has never been performed for the sake of identity--but the new Buddhist fanaticism is mocking it as such. If seen on Muslim merchant signboards, it was simply to invoke blessings by calling on God's name! Reciting Bismillah before starting anything in a way is somewhat of a magical performance, but then what religion does not make use of magic? As to Burma: many Burmese today are imbued with cultural magic of various sorts--protective tattoos, Buddhist amulets, lucky days, on and on. >From the article on the monk Wirathu, : "Soon, Wirathu warns, this Muslim alliance could outbreed Buddhists, steal away Buddhist women, overwhelm political offices and prohibit Buddhist ceremonies altogether." It's abundantly clear that 969 is being used as an identity code as a way to mock 786 and also to enforce segregation. The article says: " for decades, Muslim merchants have decorated their signage with the numbers 786, an allusion to Islamic numerology." This is the author's ignorance talking. These are the very same paranoid warnings being pushed about Muslims by the BBS group in Sri Lanka. One suspects an international movement afoot here. Moving to the political economy level, I see this recent organized hysteria about Muslims in both Burma and Sri Lanka (whose Buddhist institutions are in mutual communication) as a political response to their awareness, finally, that Saudi and Gulf Sunni emirate money has been used to promote Islam, wherever Muslims are a major component of a country's population. The Bangladeshis have been on to this for about a decade already--the SE Asians are only today catching on. Looks very like there is collusion between the Burma 969 and the Sri Lanka BBS group. Add to this recent awareness of Arab petrodollars influencing local Muslim groups, the issue of the Rohingyas in western Burma......a politically difficult situation, where their Muslim religion is being used as an added reason to kick them out, as not Burmese. It has to be said that the presence of most of the Muslims in Burma today is due to movement of Muslims from India to Burma during the British Raj. After Burmese independence, hundreds of Indians--Sikhs, Hindus, and Muslims-- were tossed out of/voluntarily left Burma, returning to India. [This fact not noted in these articles.] Some Muslims had married Burmese women, and so stayed on. Hundreds of Indian-origin people even walked out of Burma into India, a long trail during which many of the aged died. When I visited Burma in 1985, I saw a large former Sikh gurdwara in one small town, converted to commercial uses; oddly, I don't recall seeing any mosques, maybe because I was focused on pagodas. My (only a) guess is, that most of today's Muslims in Burma are of mixed descent. So in historical terms, they aren't "racially" Burmans, only part-Burman. But in Burma today, if you are not Buddhist, you are not racially or otherwise Burman. Racism based on ethnicity is raising its head in a lot of formerly ethnically harmonious regions. Meta-politically, chalk a lot of these ethnic conflicts up to expanding populations competing for increasingly limited resources, made even more limited by the fact that global competitors have been allowed buy huge tracts of resources in SE Asia, China being one of the biggest players, but western oil companies not far behind. Joanna From ugg-5 at spro.net Sun Mar 31 12:00:27 2013 From: ugg-5 at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 12:00:27 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] comment on illustration in Zarni's Todays Thoughts Message-ID: <005e01ce2e39$a064feb0$e12efc10$@spro.net> Please look again at the photo here: http://www.maungzarni.com/2013/03/stop-969-burmas-fastest-growing-neo.html The younger Muslim woman in the picture of the hypocritical monk Wirathu is wearing the type of hijab promoted by the Wahhabis and Salafis. When I visited Burma in 1985, eating at Muslim restaurants on the road from Yangon to Bagan, NONE of their women wore hijab of any kind nor did they hide from the customers. The same was true of the Muslims in southern Thailand before the Arab religious fanatics got to them. Also true of Indonesia before the same religious promotions ended up with the creation of the Jamaah Islami there-the group that blew up the nightclub in Bali and other atrocities. This has been a movement going on for several decades already but ignored by western media, whose owners are ever favorable to the Sunni oil barons. Attacking an ethnic group denoted as non-Burmese is also a political strategy of the ruling junta in Burma, who need to divide in order to rule. Further independent research is needed to ascertain if the Burmese Muslims (aside from Rohingyas) have supported terrorism and anti-Buddhist actions. So far, I don't believe it. However, their willingness to take on Arab monetary support and religious extremism does not endear them to the populations they live among. Q.E.D. Joanna From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Mar 31 17:55:54 2013 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 19:55:54 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Tibet China - not about self-immolations References: <005e01ce2e39$a064feb0$e12efc10$@spro.net> Message-ID: An AP story as it appeared on nytimes online. Dan http://tinyurl.com/bp44md8 March 30, 2013 One Body Is Found at Site of Tibetan Landslide That Buried 83 By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS BEIJING (AP) - Rescuers in Tibet digging for victims of a huge landslide at a gold mining site found one body on Saturday, a day after 83 workers were buried in the disaster, Chinese state news media reported. The fate of the other victims was unknown. The workers were buried early Friday when about 2.6 million cubic yards of mud, rock and debris swept through the mine in Gyama, a village in Maizhokunggar County, about 45 miles east of Lhasa, the capital of Tibet, and covered an area measuring around 1.5 square miles. More than 3,000 rescuers with sniffer dogs and excavators were scouring the high-altitude, mountainous area on Saturday, but search efforts were slowed after snow started to fall early in the afternoon, the official Xinhua News Agency said. Xinhua said the body was retrieved at 5:35 p.m., nearly 36 hours after the landslide slammed through the area. The disaster has highlighted the extensive mining activities on the Tibetan plateau and prompted questions about whether they have been excessive and are destroying the region's fragile ecosystem. Criticisms, however, only flashed through China's social media on Saturday before they were scrubbed off or blocked from public view by censors. Officials in Beijing said the cause of the disaster had yet to be fully investigated. A Tibetan writer, Tsering Woeser, who has been following the development of mining projects in Gyama and surrounding areas since 2007, said that China's powerful, resource-hungry state-owned companies had ravaged the landscape. "Unchecked mining has polluted water, sickened animals and humans, dislocated herdsmen and now caused a massive mudslide," she wrote on her blog. The Chinese government has been encouraging the development of mining and other industries in Tibet to promote its economic growth and raise living standards. The region has abundant deposits of precious minerals and metals, yet Tibet remains among China's poorest areas despite its production of a large share of the county's minerals. From bshmr at aol.com Sun Mar 31 20:12:37 2013 From: bshmr at aol.com (Richard Basham) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 20:12:37 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Revered 20th century CE Thai text? Message-ID: <20130331201237.5d848e44@aol.com> Brits likely ruffling some Thai feathers, ignoring most Thai context/response. Seems to me that linguistic analysis would be more scientific than what is presented. OTT: Why is the text so revered? Is there a public English-language copy? Richard Basham ** Buddhist text's true author identified as Thai woman By Samanthi Dissanayake, BBC News, 28 March 2013 Leeds, UK -- A little-known Thai woman has been identified by researchers as the most likely author of an important Buddhist treatise, previously attributed to a high-profile monk. Thammanuthamma-patipatti is a set of dialogues, supposedly between two prominent Thai monks last century. It had been attributed to one of them - Venerable Luang Pu Mun Bhuridatta. But scholars believe it was really by a female devotee, making her one of the first Thai women to write such a text. ... http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=70,11390,0,0,1,0