From karp at uw.edu.pl Sun Mar 4 00:13:04 2012 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 08:13:04 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] A Query re Gregory Schopen's UCLA 2009 lecture Message-ID: Dear List Members, I cannot find anywhere on the Net a *.pdf or *.doc transcript of Gregory Schopen's 2009 (spring) UCLA lecture - "?The Buddha as a Businessman: Economics and Law in an Old Indian Religion?. I do not believe it doesn't exist. It just might be that I am not really well prepared to perform in the role of a Net researcher. I'd be eternally grateful for a link, or a copy. Artur Karp Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.) South Asian Studies Dept. Oriental Faculty University of Warsaw Poland From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Mar 4 01:10:37 2012 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 03:10:37 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] A Query re Gregory Schopen's UCLA 2009 lecture References: Message-ID: <003401ccf9de$49665180$6602a8c0@Dan> Dear Artur > I cannot find anywhere on the Net a *.pdf or *.doc transcript of > Gregory Schopen's 2009 (spring) UCLA lecture - "?The Buddha as a > Businessman: Economics and Law in an Old Indian > Religion?. It's not a pdf or doc, but a video on youtube (just short of an hour): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GeZGFvbDzo Dan From karp at uw.edu.pl Sun Mar 4 02:43:53 2012 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:43:53 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] A Query re Gregory Schopen's UCLA 2009 lecture In-Reply-To: <003401ccf9de$49665180$6602a8c0@Dan> References: <003401ccf9de$49665180$6602a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: Dear Dan, Thanks --- but, of course, I have seen (and listened to) the video of the lecture, quite a number of times. I'm in the process of writing something, I need the transcript in order to better react to the lecture's theses - videos kind of distract me. Artur From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Mar 4 03:31:15 2012 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 05:31:15 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] A Query re Gregory Schopen's UCLA 2009 lecture References: <003401ccf9de$49665180$6602a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <004501ccf9f1$edd31510$6602a8c0@Dan> Dear Artur, I am not aware of any transcript or of a published version of that talk. Perhaps if one exists others can point you towards it. best, Dan >I need the transcript in > order to better react to the lecture's theses From jkirk at spro.net Sun Mar 4 08:48:03 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 08:48:03 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] A Query re Gregory Schopen's UCLA 2009 lecture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006a01ccfa1e$2fb4c240$8f1e46c0$@spro.net> Artur, Probably if you can get this book, it will contain the material that you want: Schopen, _Buddhist Monks and Business Matters: Still More Papers on Monastic Buddhism in India_. (Studies in the Buddhist Traditions) U. Hawaii Pr., 2004. Cheers Joanna Behalf Of Artur Karp Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2012 12:13 AM Dear List Members, I cannot find anywhere on the Net a *.pdf or *.doc transcript of Gregory Schopen's 2009 (spring) UCLA lecture - "?The Buddha as a Businessman: Economics and Law in an Old Indian Religion?. I do not believe it doesn't exist. It just might be that I am not really well prepared to perform in the role of a Net researcher. I'd be eternally grateful for a link, or a copy. Artur Karp Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.) South Asian Studies Dept. Oriental Faculty University of Warsaw Poland _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From bshmr at aol.com Sun Mar 4 14:29:30 2012 From: bshmr at aol.com (Richard Basham) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2012 15:29:30 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] RRe: A Query re Gregory Schopen's UCLA 2009 lecture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1330896570.10479.15.camel@aims110> Artur, I suppose that one could record and play the lecture audio to the Dragon (Naturally Speaking) or the like (think adverts for Siri) and then edit that resulting transcript as needed. Clueless at how doing so fits with 'fair use' though it should if a) in part(s), b) properly annotated, and c) 'not sold' as a product. Who is know whether some devoted co-ed spent hours looping through it or a frightened PC transcribed it. Perhaps some wealthy, such as DL, would do it on his iPhone and e-mail it to you for free . Richard Basham From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon Mar 5 10:56:55 2012 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:56:55 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] 2 more tibetan immolations, this time by laywomen References: <1330896570.10479.15.camel@aims110> Message-ID: <004601ccfaf9$5a76af30$6602a8c0@Dan> From aryacitta at hotmail.com Mon Mar 5 15:28:45 2012 From: aryacitta at hotmail.com (David Living) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 22:28:45 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] A Query re Gregory Schopen's UCLA 2009 lecture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Richard - get your secretary to do it. If he/she can do shorthand its a piece of cake Aryacitta/Dave Living From gouin.me at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 01:22:43 2012 From: gouin.me at gmail.com (Margaret Gouin) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 09:22:43 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] A Query re Gregory Schopen's UCLA 2009 lecture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 March 2012 23:28, David Living wrote: Richard - get your secretary to do it. If he/she can do shorthand its a piece of cake ------------------ Is there any particular problem with just writing to Dr Schopen and asking him for a copy of his paper? And David, transcribing a public talk (as opposed to dictated correspondence) is *never* a piece of cake, with or without shorthand. I've done a lot (and I have shorthand). Try it for yourself. Sincerely, Margaret -- Margaret Gouin, PhD (Bristol) Honorary Research Fellow University of Wales Trinity Saint David http://tsd.academia.edu/MargaretGouin Author, Tibetan Rituals of Death : Buddhist funerary practices From karp at uw.edu.pl Tue Mar 6 03:28:35 2012 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 11:28:35 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] A Query re Gregory Schopen's UCLA 2009 lecture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Is there any particular problem with just writing to Dr Schopen and asking > him for a copy of his paper? No, Margaret, there is not. Professor Schopen informed me kindly yesterday, that he doesn't have either printed or typed version, just notes, hand written on waste paper with a pencil. He never expected that his UCLA talk would end on YouTube and have any further life. Pity. A couple of days ago, I started to transcribe the talk, just for myself, but dropped it. It takes a lot of time. Slightly more than four minutes in one hour, with me - having no shorthand and being not a native English speaker. Well, considering the time wasted on a futile Net search, I would have already had at least half of the talk transcribed by now. Pity again. Best, Artur From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Sat Mar 10 11:50:48 2012 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 10:50:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down Message-ID: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> They recently shut down http://library.nu.? Grrrrr!!!!? That website saved me more than once.? I found this perceptive article by Christopher Kelty regarding the shut-down.? It echoes my sentiments exactly: ? http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/02/2012227143813304790.html ? Buddhist content of this message?? Plenty!? I found?lots of Buddhist books on http://library.nu. ? Katherine Masis San Jose, Costa Rica, Central America From chris.fynn at gmail.com Sat Mar 10 13:20:19 2012 From: chris.fynn at gmail.com (Christopher Fynn) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 02:20:19 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Too bad. It was very, very useful to people in third world countries that don't have libraries and cant afford academic books. On 11/03/2012, Katherine Masis wrote: > They recently shut down http://library.nu.? Grrrrr!!!!? That website saved > me more than once.? I found this perceptive article by Christopher Kelty > regarding the shut-down.? It echoes my sentiments exactly: > > http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/02/2012227143813304790.html > > Buddhist content of this message?? Plenty!? I found?lots of Buddhist books > on http://library.nu. > > Katherine Masis > San Jose, Costa Rica, Central America > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Mon Mar 12 11:11:10 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 11:11:10 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] A book of potential interest Message-ID: <008801cd0073$1faa35a0$5efea0e0$@spro.net> Denizens?cross-posted from the Indology list. Just published this year. Pricey. Alas, must wait a year for ILL order. Joanna K. ______________________________ From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Jonathan Silk Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 3:06 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: [INDOLOGY] A book of potential interest dear Colleagues, I have just read a most fascinating book, which may escape attention having been published in a rather out of the way place. The book is Urs App's The Cult of Emptiness: The Western Discovery of Buddhist Thought and the Invention of Oriental Philosophy. (ISBN 978-3-906000-09-1.) App traces Western awareness of Buddhist doctrinal ideas to the 16th [sic!] century, when missionaries encountered Zen Buddhists in Japan, and demonstrates how over the next few centuries these encounters and others spawned an awareness of philosophical [doctrinal might be better often times] systems outside of the European tradition. The story of what indeed was known and how that knowledge was used and manipulated is absolutely amazing. I have no intention of offering a summary or review here, although the book, which picks up themes also discussed in App's The Birth of Orientalism, richly deserves attention. Among other things the careful archival research demonstrates that what one reads in the works of more superficial scholars about European awareness of Buddhism (and to a lesser extent in this book, Hinduism) is in drastic need of revision. I got my copy from the author, but he directs me to the publisher's site, UniversityMedia (www.universitymedia.org). I should probably note that I have had nothing to do with the production of this book, that I do not profit from it other than from having gained knowledge through having read it, and that other than being a friend of the author I have no stake in its promotion (other than wishing for the wide spread of its insights). With cordial regards, Jonathan Silk -- J. Silk Instituut Kern / Universiteit Leiden Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Johan Huizinga Building, Room 1.37 Doelensteeg 16 2311 VL Leiden The Netherlands From jkirk at spro.net Mon Mar 12 22:46:19 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 22:46:19 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> 'In the end, it was only by donating to the site that law authorities discovered the real people behind the site - pirates too have PayPal accounts.' Oh no--so that's how their cover was blown. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Katherine Masis Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 11:51 AM To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down They recently shut down http://library.nu.? Grrrrr!!!!? That website saved me more than once.? I found this perceptive article by Christopher Kelty regarding the shut-down.? It echoes my sentiments exactly: ? http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/02/2012227143813304790.html ? Buddhist content of this message?? Plenty!? I found?lots of Buddhist books on http://library.nu. ? Katherine Masis San Jose, Costa Rica, Central America _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Mar 13 15:06:22 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:06:22 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: 6562.348dc332.3bab6bed@aol.com Message-ID: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> I've been working my fingers to the bone over here and have not had time to look at buddha-l for weeks. Having read all of September's entries, it appears I haven't missed much. I do have one question, though, for Jack, who wrote this: > It has been my experience, limited though it might be, that the Western > Buddhists I know follow the 8-Fold Path while ethnic Buddhists I know do > not. Just out of curiosity, which angas of the eightfold path do you see people not following? Are you claiming they don't follow these limbs at all, or that they are just not very good at them, or that they are totally ignorant of what the limbs of the eightfold path are, or something else? I am curious what exactly the observation you're making is. Carry on. Richard From sallymcara at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 15:33:42 2012 From: sallymcara at gmail.com (Sally McAra) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:33:42 +1300 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: On 14 March 2012 10:06, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > > ?I do have one question, though, for > Jack, who wrote this: > > > It has been my experience, limited though it might be, that the Western > > Buddhists I know follow the 8-Fold Path while ethnic Buddhists I know do > > not. A comment for Jack, seeing as Richard has brought what he said to my attention: There's an article called?"Two Buddhisms, Three Buddhisms, and Racism", by Wakoh Shannon Hickey, in issue 11 of the open access Journal of Global Buddhism (see http://www.globalbuddhism.org/toc.html). I thoroughly recommend it for getting an insight into the problems relating to divisive generalisations such as the labels "western Buddhist" and "ethnic" Buddhist. "Westerners" also have ethnicity, but they often don't see it, they just think they are "normal" and others are "different". Hickey also discusses how privilege is often missed by those who have it, but rarely missed by those who don't have it! It so happens I'm struggling to finish a survey article which has a section on the literature about typologies for describing the diversity of Buddhism, and Hickey's article is helpful to me in clarifying some of the complexities (a few others I found are also good, but am mentioning her as she addresses racism and diversity in a way that would be helpful for Jack). The abstract from her article, from the journal website: Over the past several decades, observers of American Buddhism have created numerous typologies to describe different categories of Buddhists in the United States. These taxonomies use different criteria to categorize groups: style of practice, degree of institutional stability, mode of transmission to the U.S., ethnicity, etc. Each reveals some features of American Buddhism and obscures others. None accounts adequately for hybrids or for long-term changes within categories. Most include a divide between convert Buddhists, characterized as predominantly Caucasian, and ?heritage? or ?ethnic? Buddhists, characterized as Asian immigrants and refugees, as well as their descendants. This article examines several typologies, and considers two dynamics: the effects of white racism on the development of American Buddhist communities; and the effects of unconscious white privilege in scholarly discourse about these communities. It critiques ?ethnic? categories and proposes other ways to conceptualize the diverse forms of Buddhism outside Asia. -- Sally McAra From Jackhat1 at aol.com Tue Mar 13 15:39:18 2012 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 17:39:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism Message-ID: In a message dated 3/13/2012 4:06:48 P.M. Central Daylight Time, rhayes at unm.edu writes: > It has been my experience, limited though it might be, that the Western > Buddhists I know follow the 8-Fold Path while ethnic Buddhists I know do > not. Just out of curiosity, which angas of the eightfold path do you see people not following? Are you claiming they don't follow these limbs at all, or that they are just not very good at them, or that they are totally ignorant of what the limbs of the eightfold path are, or something else? I am curious what exactly the observation you're making is. =============================== Here in the Chicago area and in other areas of the U.S. I have visited, few ethnic Buddhists meditate, i.e., the mental development segment of the 8-Fold Path: right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. The trend I see is that local Buddhist organizations such as Korean Zen, Thera. Buddhists and so on split into two groups. The ethnic groups go to devotional events but never go to meditation retreats or sessions. In a local Thai Buddhist center few of the ethnic monks meditate. Any meditation session will consist entirely or almost entirely of Westerners. Have you observed something differently? I am not saying one has to meditate to be a Buddhist. Jack From Jackhat1 at aol.com Tue Mar 13 15:46:56 2012 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 17:46:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism Message-ID: In a message dated 3/13/2012 4:33:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, sallymcara at gmail.com writes: I thoroughly recommend it for getting an insight into the problems relating to divisive generalisations such as the labels "western Buddhist" and "ethnic" Buddhist. "Westerners" also have ethnicity, but they often don't see it, they just think they are "normal" and others are "different". Hickey also discusses how privilege is often missed by those who have it, but rarely missed by those who don't have it! It so happens I'm struggling to finish a survey article which has a section on the literature about typologies for describing the diversity of Buddhism, and Hickey's article is helpful to me in clarifying some of the complexities (a few others I found are also good, but am mentioning her as she addresses racism and diversity in a way that would be helpful for Jack). ======= I have found it awkward to use Ethnic Buddhists and Western Buddhists to differentiate groups exhibiting different behaviors but haven't found anything better. But, they seem understood by most people. What do you suggest? Are you calling me a racist? Jack From jkirk at spro.net Tue Mar 13 15:48:00 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:48:00 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <003d01cd0162$f69ed6c0$e3dc8440$@spro.net> Sally Thisd link doesn't get the article: http://www.globalbuddhism.org/toc.html is this something you saved a while back?--can you tell us which volume and year goes with the article, that way we can find it. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Sally McAra Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:34 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism On 14 March 2012 10:06, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > > ?I do have one question, though, for > Jack, who wrote this: > > > It has been my experience, limited though it might be, that the > > Western Buddhists I know follow the 8-Fold Path while ethnic > > Buddhists I know do not. A comment for Jack, seeing as Richard has brought what he said to my attention: There's an article called?"Two Buddhisms, Three Buddhisms, and Racism", by Wakoh Shannon Hickey, in issue 11 of the open access Journal of Global Buddhism (see http://www.globalbuddhism.org/toc.html). I thoroughly recommend it for getting an insight into the problems relating to divisive generalisations such as the labels "western Buddhist" and "ethnic" Buddhist. "Westerners" also have ethnicity, but they often don't see it, they just think they are "normal" and others are "different". Hickey also discusses how privilege is often missed by those who have it, but rarely missed by those who don't have it! It so happens I'm struggling to finish a survey article which has a section on the literature about typologies for describing the diversity of Buddhism, and Hickey's article is helpful to me in clarifying some of the complexities (a few others I found are also good, but am mentioning her as she addresses racism and diversity in a way that would be helpful for Jack). The abstract from her article, from the journal website: Over the past several decades, observers of American Buddhism have created numerous typologies to describe different categories of Buddhists in the United States. These taxonomies use different criteria to categorize groups: style of practice, degree of institutional stability, mode of transmission to the U.S., ethnicity, etc. Each reveals some features of American Buddhism and obscures others. None accounts adequately for hybrids or for long-term changes within categories. Most include a divide between convert Buddhists, characterized as predominantly Caucasian, and ?heritage? or ?ethnic? Buddhists, characterized as Asian immigrants and refugees, as well as their descendants. This article examines several typologies, and considers two dynamics: the effects of white racism on the development of American Buddhist communities; and the effects of unconscious white privilege in scholarly discourse about these communities. It critiques ?ethnic? categories and proposes other ways to conceptualize the diverse forms of Buddhism outside Asia. -- Sally McAra _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From sallymcara at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 16:06:09 2012 From: sallymcara at gmail.com (Sally McAra) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:06:09 +1300 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: <003d01cd0162$f69ed6c0$e3dc8440$@spro.net> References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> <003d01cd0162$f69ed6c0$e3dc8440$@spro.net> Message-ID: Hi Joanna - it's in Issue 11. Sorry, I couldn't find a link for the article as html. Here is the link to download the pdf: http://www.globalbuddhism.org/11/hickey10.pdf Cheers Sally On 14 March 2012 10:48, Jo wrote: > Sally > Thisd link doesn't get the article: > http://www.globalbuddhism.org/toc.html > > is this something you saved a while back?--can you tell us which volume and > year goes with the article, that way we can find it. > > Joanna > > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com > [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Sally McAra > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:34 PM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism > > On 14 March 2012 10:06, Richard P. Hayes wrote: >> >> ?I do have one question, though, for >> Jack, who wrote this: >> >> > It has been my experience, limited though it might be, that the >> > Western Buddhists I know follow the 8-Fold Path while ethnic >> > Buddhists I know do not. > > A comment for Jack, seeing as Richard has brought what he said to my > attention: > > There's an article called?"Two Buddhisms, Three Buddhisms, and Racism", by > Wakoh Shannon Hickey, in issue 11 of the open access Journal of Global > Buddhism (see http://www.globalbuddhism.org/toc.html). > > I thoroughly recommend it for getting an insight into the problems relating > to divisive generalisations such as the labels "western Buddhist" and > "ethnic" Buddhist. "Westerners" also have ethnicity, but they often don't > see it, they just think they are "normal" and others are "different". > Hickey also discusses how privilege is often missed by those who have it, > but rarely missed by those who don't have it! It so happens I'm struggling > to finish a survey article which has a section on the literature about > typologies for describing the diversity of Buddhism, and Hickey's article is > helpful to me in clarifying some of the complexities (a few others I found > are also good, but am mentioning her as she addresses racism and diversity > in a way that would be helpful for Jack). > > The abstract from her article, from the journal website: > Over the past several decades, observers of American Buddhism have created > numerous typologies to describe different categories of Buddhists in the > United States. These taxonomies use different criteria to categorize groups: > style of practice, degree of institutional stability, mode of transmission > to the U.S., ethnicity, etc. Each reveals some features of American Buddhism > and obscures others. None accounts adequately for hybrids or for long-term > changes within categories. Most include a divide between convert Buddhists, > characterized as predominantly Caucasian, and ?heritage? or ?ethnic? > Buddhists, characterized as Asian immigrants and refugees, as well as their > descendants. This article examines several typologies, and considers two > dynamics: the effects of white racism on the development of American > Buddhist communities; and the effects of unconscious white privilege in > scholarly discourse about these communities. It critiques ?ethnic? > categories and proposes other ways to conceptualize the diverse forms of > Buddhism outside Asia. > -- > Sally McAra > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -- Sally McAra From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Mar 13 16:25:38 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 16:25:38 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 13, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Jackhat1 at aol.com wrote: > The ethnic groups go to devotional > events but never go to meditation retreats or sessions. In a local Thai > Buddhist center few of the ethnic monks meditate. Any meditation session will > consist entirely or almost entirely of Westerners. Have you observed > something differently? What I have observed is that some people define meditation so narrowly that it does not include devotional practices, mindful hospitality and doing service to those in need. It seems that those with narrow definitions of meditation sometimes also have narrow views on what practice is and conclude, falsely I think, that quite a few Buddhists are not practicing Buddhists. I'm not sure I see much point in trying to estimate to what extent other people than oneself are following the 8-fold path. If there is a point, I'd be happy to know what it is, just in case I'm missing out on something important. Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Mar 13 16:44:12 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 16:44:12 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <6775C7FD-D609-430E-9B56-CEBA9C733F73@unm.edu> On Mar 13, 2012, at 3:33 PM, Sally McAra wrote: > I thoroughly recommend it for getting an insight into the problems > relating to divisive generalisations such as the labels "western > Buddhist" and "ethnic" Buddhist. I'll look it up. It may help me articulate better why I am deeply uncomfortable with the concept of "Western" Buddhist and also with such notions as "birthright Buddhist" or "born Buddhist" or "Buddhist country" and so forth. I used to become quite queasy when I used to hear people talking about such things as "ethnic going for refuge" and "provisional going for refuge" and "effective going for refuge" and whatnot. It reminded me of Tillich's observation that there is something evil in the systematization and institutionalization of religion. I have always suspected Buddhism was pretty good until it got spoiled by the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path and the Three Jewels. (Cf Hakuin's comment that the Heart Sutra was like a nice soup until some jackass threw the two rat turds, Form and Emptiness, into it.) Richard Hayes From franz at mind2mind.net Tue Mar 13 18:46:50 2012 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 17:46:50 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> <003d01cd0162$f69ed6c0$e3dc8440$@spro.net> Message-ID: Gang, > Hi Joanna - it's in Issue 11. Sorry, I couldn't find a link for the > article as html. Here is the link to download the pdf: > http://www.globalbuddhism.org/11/hickey10.pdf Yes, this is an idiosyncrasy of the way we set up the site. It is difficult to find the html links. In this case, the link to the fine article by Dr. Hickey is . Meanwhile, please go to on this fascinating topic! I wish I could take part, but I am too busy. In April I'll pick up the threads if anyone is still interested. Cheers, Franz From jkirk at spro.net Tue Mar 13 19:02:49 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 19:02:49 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> <003d01cd0162$f69ed6c0$e3dc8440$@spro.net> Message-ID: <002401cd017e$2d7c7290$887557b0$@spro.net> Thanks, Sally :) J -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Sally McAra Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 4:06 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism Hi Joanna - it's in Issue 11. Sorry, I couldn't find a link for the article as html. Here is the link to download the pdf: http://www.globalbuddhism.org/11/hickey10.pdf Cheers Sally On 14 March 2012 10:48, Jo wrote: > Sally > Thisd link doesn't get the article: > http://www.globalbuddhism.org/toc.html > > is this something you saved a while back?--can you tell us which > volume and year goes with the article, that way we can find it. > > Joanna > > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com > [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Sally McAra > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:34 PM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism > > On 14 March 2012 10:06, Richard P. Hayes wrote: >> >> ?I do have one question, though, for >> Jack, who wrote this: >> >> > It has been my experience, limited though it might be, that the >> > Western Buddhists I know follow the 8-Fold Path while ethnic >> > Buddhists I know do not. > > A comment for Jack, seeing as Richard has brought what he said to my > attention: > > There's an article called?"Two Buddhisms, Three Buddhisms, and > Racism", by Wakoh Shannon Hickey, in issue 11 of the open access > Journal of Global Buddhism (see http://www.globalbuddhism.org/toc.html). > > I thoroughly recommend it for getting an insight into the problems > relating to divisive generalisations such as the labels "western > Buddhist" and "ethnic" Buddhist. "Westerners" also have ethnicity, but > they often don't see it, they just think they are "normal" and others are "different". > Hickey also discusses how privilege is often missed by those who have > it, but rarely missed by those who don't have it! It so happens I'm > struggling to finish a survey article which has a section on the > literature about typologies for describing the diversity of Buddhism, > and Hickey's article is helpful to me in clarifying some of the > complexities (a few others I found are also good, but am mentioning > her as she addresses racism and diversity in a way that would be helpful for Jack). > > The abstract from her article, from the journal website: > Over the past several decades, observers of American Buddhism have > created numerous typologies to describe different categories of > Buddhists in the United States. These taxonomies use different criteria to categorize groups: > style of practice, degree of institutional stability, mode of > transmission to the U.S., ethnicity, etc. Each reveals some features > of American Buddhism and obscures others. None accounts adequately for > hybrids or for long-term changes within categories. Most include a > divide between convert Buddhists, characterized as predominantly Caucasian, and ?heritage? or ?ethnic? > Buddhists, characterized as Asian immigrants and refugees, as well as > their descendants. This article examines several typologies, and > considers two > dynamics: the effects of white racism on the development of American > Buddhist communities; and the effects of unconscious white privilege > in scholarly discourse about these communities. It critiques ?ethnic? > categories and proposes other ways to conceptualize the diverse forms > of Buddhism outside Asia. > -- > Sally McAra > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -- Sally McAra _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From joy.vriens at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 05:30:40 2012 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:30:40 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: <6775C7FD-D609-430E-9B56-CEBA9C733F73@unm.edu> References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> <6775C7FD-D609-430E-9B56-CEBA9C733F73@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4F608160.8060809@gmail.com> Hi all, Richard wrote that he had always suspected Buddhism was pretty good until it got spoiled by systematization and institutionalization of religion. I think we can add to this list categorisation on the basis of matrika-lists consisting of ? race ?, ? racism ?, ? priviliges ? and other dhammas. It is a privilege to live in one?s country and to have grown up in it, speaking it?s language, knowing its culture, especially if that country mobilizes the power of reason, in order to reform society and advance knowledge, tries to follow democratic values, human rights, and invites immigrants and refugees to become full citizens as well, who are very happy to become part of it. Let?s stop the self flogging for a minute (Bourgeois Buddhism, ouch ouch), yet not be total Caucasian pricks, and assume it is not only the prosperity that makes democratic countries attractive, but also (some of) the enlightenhed principles. And that those very principles may be appealing, including to ? ethnic ? Buddhists in their own ? ethnic ? country is obvious in the case of King Mongkut, Vajiranyanavarorot, KSR Kulap, Kruthep, Buddhadasa etc. in Thailand and their wish for a rational evolution of Buddhism. It seems to me that there was a similar ? split ? (rationalistic ? and traditionalist buddhist) as the one between ? convert ? and ? ethnic ? Buddhists. With the difference that Buddhadasa didn?t ordain Western monks and encouraged them to keep their original religion. Whereas ? convert ? Buddhists went as far as ? converting ? themselves to Buddhism. This should make ? ethnic ? Buddhists feel more than welcome ! Not bad at all for hospitality and service to those in need ! Joy From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Mar 14 07:56:22 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 07:56:22 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: <4F608160.8060809@gmail.com> References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> <6775C7FD-D609-430E-9B56-CEBA9C733F73@unm.edu> <4F608160.8060809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5F9E2A25-24F7-447E-A539-97696A3AE5A3@unm.edu> On Mar 14, 2012, at 5:30 AM, Joy Vriens wrote: > Let?s stop the self flogging for a minute > (Bourgeois Buddhism, ouch ouch), yet not be total Caucasian pricks, and > assume it is not only the prosperity that makes democratic countries > attractive, but also (some of) the enlightenhed principles. For those of you who live in Europe, there may be a few enlightened principles still lurking around to provoke admiration and even a little hope, but the lights have been completely and irrevocably extinguished in the United States of America, the United States of Mexico and the Dominion of Canada. All that remains here is unrestrained greed, seething hatred and dismal delusion. Any light that dares show up is snuffed out quickly and enthusiastically. Buddhism in this part of the world has not been part of the solution. It has been part of the problem. Richard Hayes From joy.vriens at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 08:31:55 2012 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:31:55 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: <5F9E2A25-24F7-447E-A539-97696A3AE5A3@unm.edu> References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> <6775C7FD-D609-430E-9B56-CEBA9C733F73@unm.edu> <4F608160.8060809@gmail.com> <5F9E2A25-24F7-447E-A539-97696A3AE5A3@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4F60ABDB.3070600@gmail.com> Hi Richard, With a bit of luck and everything going according to plan, we could send over one of our greatest lights by May the 6th. http://www.europe1.fr/Politique/Sarkozy-trop-d-etrangers-sur-notre-territoire-978095/ Joy "For those of you who live in Europe, there may be a few enlightened principles still lurking around to provoke admiration and even a little hope, but the lights have been completely and irrevocably extinguished in the United States of America, the United States of Mexico and the Dominion of Canada." From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Mar 14 09:30:18 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 09:30:18 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: <4F60ABDB.3070600@gmail.com> References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> <6775C7FD-D609-430E-9B56-CEBA9C733F73@unm.edu> <4F608160.8060809@gmail.com> <5F9E2A25-24F7-447E-A539-97696A3AE5A3@unm.edu> <4F60ABDB.3070600@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 14, 2012, at 8:31 AM, Joy Vriens wrote: > With a bit of luck and everything going according to plan, we could send > over one of our greatest lights by May the 6th. Yes, Sarkozy would fit in very well over here. I can envision him on a ticket with Newt Gingrich. He might be a bit too rational to fit in with Rick Santorum just now, but after a few years of living here and reading de Tocqueville he would probably learn to fit in. Another possibility for Sarkozy would be somewhere near the top of the gaggle of oil barons now running the Canadian Reich. As for Buddhism, the only Americans I have seen coming even close to an authentic Buddhist practice are the Amish. The rest of us are getting around in airplanes and automobiles, watching television powered by electricity generated by burning coal, and using the energy-hungry Internet to send unnecessary emails like this one from our laptops powered by highly toxic lithium batteries. If most of us had to live even half a day by Buddhist standards, we'd have to be carted away in an ambulance. Marx wrote about bourgeois communists who rationalized their luxurious lifestyles by saying they were in using their resources for the good of the workers. The label "bourgeois Buddhist" is perhaps to so far off the marks. Richard Hayes From horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca Wed Mar 14 09:42:25 2012 From: horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca (Gad Horowitz) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:42:25 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop><6775C7FD-D609-430E-9B56-CEBA9C733F73@unm.edu><4F608160.8060809@gmail.com><5F9E2A25-24F7-447E-A539-97696A3AE5A3@unm.edu><4F60ABDB.3070600@gmail.com> Message-ID: Friedrich Engels wasa bourgeois communist without whose financial support Karl M. would not have got very far. Engels belonged to posh clubs and owned racehorses. Marx was not a moralist. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Hayes" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 11:30 AM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism > On Mar 14, 2012, at 8:31 AM, Joy Vriens wrote: > >> With a bit of luck and everything going according to plan, we could send >> over one of our greatest lights by May the 6th. > > Yes, Sarkozy would fit in very well over here. I can envision him on a > ticket with Newt Gingrich. He might be a bit too rational to fit in with > Rick Santorum just now, but after a few years of living here and reading > de Tocqueville he would probably learn to fit in. Another possibility for > Sarkozy would be somewhere near the top of the gaggle of oil barons now > running the Canadian Reich. > > As for Buddhism, the only Americans I have seen coming even close to an > authentic Buddhist practice are the Amish. The rest of us are getting > around in airplanes and automobiles, watching television powered by > electricity generated by burning coal, and using the energy-hungry > Internet to send unnecessary emails like this one from our laptops powered > by highly toxic lithium batteries. If most of us had to live even half a > day by Buddhist standards, we'd have to be carted away in an ambulance. > > Marx wrote about bourgeois communists who rationalized their luxurious > lifestyles by saying they were in using their resources for the good of > the workers. The label "bourgeois Buddhist" is perhaps to so far off the > marks. > > Richard Hayes > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From joy.vriens at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 10:32:16 2012 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:32:16 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> <6775C7FD-D609-430E-9B56-CEBA9C733F73@unm.edu> <4F608160.8060809@gmail.com> <5F9E2A25-24F7-447E-A539-97696A3AE5A3@unm.edu> <4F60ABDB.3070600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F60C810.2070606@gmail.com> "As for Buddhism, the only Americans I have seen coming even close to an authentic Buddhist practice are the Amish. [....] The label "bourgeois Buddhist" is perhaps not so far off the marks. " It reminds me of the label "bourgeois and bohemian" (abreviated into "bobo"), invented by David Brooks to describe yuppies, in his book Bobos in Paradise (I had to wikipedy this information http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobos_in_Paradise). So "bobus" for your bourgeois Buddhists. Do we have to live like the Amish to be authentic (Buddhists)? Is it possible to live without greed, hatred and delusion? Ok, my questions are a giveaway, yes I confess I am a bubo or a bobu (bohemian buddhist). Joy From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Mar 14 12:09:15 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:09:15 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> <6775C7FD-D609-430E-9B56-CEBA9C733F73@unm.edu> <4F608160.8060809@gmail.com> <5F9E2A25-24F7-447E-A539-97696A3AE5A3@unm.edu> <4F60ABDB.3070600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6B278648-8B77-4383-80A3-A06126181101@unm.edu> On Mar 14, 2012, at 9:42 AM, "Gad Horowitz" wrote: > Friedrich Engels wasa bourgeois communist without whose financial support > Karl M. would not have got very far. > Engels belonged to posh clubs and owned racehorses. > Marx was not a moralist. I'm inclined to see Marx as the greatest kind of moralist. He was, I think, not blind to his own position among the bourgeois socialists. He was condemning himself as inadequate to the task he saw as necessary. Self-condemnation is perhaps the only genuinely worthwhile use of the human mind. Richard Hayes From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Mar 14 14:12:24 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:12:24 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: <4F60C810.2070606@gmail.com> References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> <6775C7FD-D609-430E-9B56-CEBA9C733F73@unm.edu> <4F608160.8060809@gmail.com> <5F9E2A25-24F7-447E-A539-97696A3AE5A3@unm.edu> <4F60ABDB.3070600@gmail.com> <4F60C810.2070606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <78B93537-1798-4BDA-823B-A00A408BFD1F@unm.edu> On Mar 14, 2012, at 10:32 AM, Joy Vriens wrote: > So "bobus" for your > bourgeois Buddhists. And "bourbon" for the bourgeois followers of indigenous Tibetan religion? I'll drink to that. From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed Mar 14 14:30:12 2012 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 21:30:12 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: <6B278648-8B77-4383-80A3-A06126181101@unm.edu> References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> <6775C7FD-D609-430E-9B56-CEBA9C733F73@unm.edu> <4F608160.8060809@gmail.com> <5F9E2A25-24F7-447E-A539-97696A3AE5A3@unm.edu> <4F60ABDB.3070600@gmail.com> <6B278648-8B77-4383-80A3-A06126181101@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4F60FFD4.3000309@xs4all.nl> Op 14-3-2012 19:09, Richard Hayes schreef: > Self-condemnation is perhaps the only genuinely worthwhile use of the > human mind. > Richard Hayes Except of course the understanding of no self. Erik Hoogcarspel From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Mar 14 15:49:53 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:49:53 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: <4F60FFD4.3000309@xs4all.nl> References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> <6775C7FD-D609-430E-9B56-CEBA9C733F73@unm.edu> <4F608160.8060809@gmail.com> <5F9E2A25-24F7-447E-A539-97696A3AE5A3@unm.edu> <4F60ABDB.3070600@gmail.com> <6B278648-8B77-4383-80A3-A06126181101@unm.edu> <4F60FFD4.3000309@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Mar 14, 2012, at 2:30 PM, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > Except of course the understanding of no self. No-self is self-condemnation at full throttle. From jkirk at spro.net Wed Mar 14 20:08:31 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:08:31 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop><6775C7FD-D609-430E-9B56-CEBA9C733F73@unm.edu><4F608160.8060809@gmail.com><5F9E2A25-24F7-447E-A539-97696A3AE5A3@unm.edu><4F60ABDB.3070600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009d01cd0250$85b05ee0$91111ca0$@spro.net> Gad, Interesting that you write this because at the same time I was asking a European history friend if Marx really said this; his reply was similar to yours. Joanna ------------------------ Friedrich Engels wasa bourgeois communist without whose financial support Karl M. would not have got very far. Engels belonged to posh clubs and owned racehorses. Marx was not a moralist. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Hayes" [.......] > Marx wrote about bourgeois communists who rationalized their luxurious > lifestyles by saying they were in using their resources for the good of > the workers. The label "bourgeois Buddhist" is perhaps to so far off the > marks. > > Richard Hayes > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Mar 14 20:32:49 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:32:49 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: <009d01cd0250$85b05ee0$91111ca0$@spro.net> References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> <6775C7FD-D609-430E-9B56-CEBA9C733F73@unm.edu> <4F608160.8060809@gmail.com> <5F9E2A25-24F7-447E-A539-97696A3AE5A3@unm.edu> <4F60ABDB.3070600@gmail.com> <009d01cd0250$85b05ee0$91111ca0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <7F042C3F-44B3-4715-847F-4EF4FC9F5A8F@unm.edu> On Mar 14, 2012, at 8:08 PM, "Jo" wrote: > Gad, Interesting that you write this because at the same time I was asking a > European history friend if Marx really said this; his reply was similar to > yours. The passage I was paraphrasing is chapter 3 of The Communist Manifesto entitled "Socialist and Communist Literature", with special reference to section 2, Conservative, Or Bourgeois, Socialism. See also chapter 4, Position of the Communists in Relation to the Various Existing Opposition Parties. Richard Hayes From jkirk at spro.net Wed Mar 14 23:02:08 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:02:08 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: <7F042C3F-44B3-4715-847F-4EF4FC9F5A8F@unm.edu> References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> <6775C7FD-D609-430E-9B56-CEBA9C733F73@unm.edu> <4F608160.8060809@gmail.com> <5F9E2A25-24F7-447E-A539-97696A3AE5A3@unm.edu> <4F60ABDB.3070600@gmail.com> <009d01cd0250$85b05ee0$91111ca0$@spro.net> <7F042C3F-44B3-4715-847F-4EF4FC9F5A8F@unm.edu> Message-ID: <004401cd0268$c6dba470$5492ed50$@spro.net> On Mar 14, 2012, at 8:08 PM, "Jo" wrote: > Gad, Interesting that you write this because at the same time I was > asking a European history friend if Marx really said this; his reply > was similar to yours. Richard Hayes The passage I was paraphrasing is chapter 3 of The Communist Manifesto entitled "Socialist and Communist Literature", with special reference to section 2, Conservative, Or Bourgeois, Socialism. See also chapter 4, Position of the Communists in Relation to the Various Existing Opposition Parties. ------- Since you have all those citation locations, kindly post something that Marx actually wrote, instead of being chapter & versist about it! Joanna From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Mar 15 07:31:13 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:31:13 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: <004401cd0268$c6dba470$5492ed50$@spro.net> References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> <6775C7FD-D609-430E-9B56-CEBA9C733F73@unm.edu> <4F608160.8060809@gmail.com> <5F9E2A25-24F7-447E-A539-97696A3AE5A3@unm.edu> <4F60ABDB.3070600@gmail.com> <009d01cd0250$85b05ee0$91111ca0$@spro.net> <7F042C3F-44B3-4715-847F-4EF4FC9F5A8F@unm.edu> <004401cd0268$c6dba470$5492ed50$@spro.net> Message-ID: <48CF76B1-056C-40BE-B762-5703196CD573@unm.edu> On Mar 14, 2012, at 11:02 PM, "Jo" wrote: > Since you have all those citation locations, kindly post something that Marx > actually wrote, instead of being chapter & versist about it! The discussion began by my recapitulating what Marx actually wrote. The references to the text were to enable people to consult Marx's actual words and see for themselves whether my paraphrase accurately captured the spirit of the text. Obviously I can't be expected to judge whether my own understanding is adequate. That's why people have discussions. Richard Hayes From chris.fynn at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 01:59:11 2012 From: chris.fynn at gmail.com (Christopher Fynn) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:59:11 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> Message-ID: Considering what academic publishers pay to their authors against the prices they charge for their books - who are the real pirates? These guys looked more like Robin Hood to me Their site had overwhelmingly academic, scholarly and technical books. Where I live almost no one has a credit card, there is no library with books like that available, and even if they could be ordered many of those books would cost someone about an average months salary here. I guess it was too good to last From joy.vriens at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 02:22:26 2012 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 09:22:26 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> Message-ID: <4F62F842.50705@gmail.com> Hi Chris, One can't compare lack of medical material with lack of cultural material, but yet I dare to make that comparison. If one sees how hard it has been to lower the prices of AIDS drugs in third world countries and the pressure that was put on those countries to pay the full whack, there is little hope for cultural material. Finally it was accepted that the poorest countries had cheaper access to medecin, but those just above the arbitrariliy decided poverty level had to continue the full price. And here we are talking about medecin and AIDS, an illness that doesn't care about fronteers and GNP level. Culture is a luxury good, one doesn't need it to live, and certainly not to survive. There are currently cuts in its budgets and it's not an issue anymore in any election. I expect Chanel, Guerlain etc. will soon buy over publishers and commercialize books as luxury commodities. http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/26/a-trade-barrier-to-defeating-aids/ Joy "Where I live almost no one has a credit card, there is no library with books like that available, and even if they could be ordered many of those books would cost someone about an average months salary here." From chris.fynn at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 02:24:01 2012 From: chris.fynn at gmail.com (Christopher Fynn) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:24:01 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] A Query re Gregory Schopen's UCLA 2009 lecture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 06/03/2012, Margaret Gouin wrote: > And David, transcribing a public talk (as opposed to dictated > correspondence) is *never* a piece of cake, with or without shorthand. I've > done a lot (and I have shorthand). Try it for yourself. Probably the only people that are good at that are experienced court and Hansard stenographers. I once visited the late Dudjom Rinpoche in Kalimpong - and, while he was talking to me, - and without notes - he was dictating four books on four different topics to four monk-scribes. Talk about multi tasking. From chris.fynn at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 02:51:17 2012 From: chris.fynn at gmail.com (Christopher Fynn) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:51:17 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: <4F62F842.50705@gmail.com> References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> <4F62F842.50705@gmail.com> Message-ID: Gigapedia was full of medical books and journals, scientific, engineering and technical publications as well as arts & humanities material. The contents of some of those books is probably as essential and valuable as medicine. I suspect the site was largely put together by some university librarian who had access to all this material in digital format and thought they should be more freely accessible. It was not simply a site where people uploaded books they had scanned The approach of TBRC seems reasonable. They charge enough money to university libraries and western subscribers to cover some of their costs, but make everything freely available to people in India, Nepal, Tibet and Bhutan (and many penniless western scholars as well). On 16/03/2012, Joy Vriens wrote: > Hi Chris, > > One can't compare lack of medical material with lack of cultural > material, but yet I dare to make that comparison. If one sees how hard > it has been to lower the prices of AIDS drugs in third world countries > and the pressure that was put on those countries to pay the full whack, > there is little hope for cultural material. Finally it was accepted that > the poorest countries had cheaper access to medecin, but those just > above the arbitrariliy decided poverty level had to continue the full > price. And here we are talking about medecin and AIDS, an illness that > doesn't care about fronteers and GNP level. Culture is a luxury good, > one doesn't need it to live, and certainly not to survive. There are > currently cuts in its budgets and it's not an issue anymore in any > election. I expect Chanel, Guerlain etc. will soon buy over publishers > and commercialize books as luxury commodities. > > http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/26/a-trade-barrier-to-defeating-aids/ > > Joy > > "Where I live almost no one has a credit card, there is no library with > books like that available, and even if they could be ordered many of > those books would cost someone about an average months salary here." > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From karp at uw.edu.pl Fri Mar 16 03:24:44 2012 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 10:24:44 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] A Query re Gregory Schopen's UCLA 2009 lecture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I already have half of the thing transcribed. One or two small lacunae, though. Best, Artur K. From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Mar 16 08:25:30 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 08:25:30 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> Message-ID: On Mar 16, 2012, at 1:59 AM, Christopher Fynn wrote: > Considering what academic publishers pay to their authors against the > prices they charge for their books - who are the real pirates? In 1988 I wrote a book on Dign?ga that, to my astonishment, some people still read. It's available on Amazon for $266.83 (although a used copy can be snapped up for a mere $250). It was published by D. Reidel, who sold the rights to Kluwer, who sold the rights to Springer. All efforts to get permission to make an affordable Asian edition available have failed. The price keeps going up. I have never received as much as 1? in royalties (about which I don't care at all, since I have an adequate income from selling my labour to the state of New Mexico). I was pleased to see the book made available on library.nu and urged people who inquired to download it from there as soon as possible, because it was obvious the site could never last in a anti-intellectual capitalist universe. Inconsistent critter that I am, I myself never downloaded anything from library.nu. I could never quite manage to find words for the principle I thought the site was violating, aside from the second Buddhist precept. If people want to make their own work available by putting PDF or ebook versions on their own websites, I'll happily download such material, but when a third party puts material on a site and bypasses both authors and their publishers, then it is pretty obviously adatt?d?na?taking what is not given. Robin Hood may have stolen from the rich to give to the poor, but for all that he was still a thief. And that makes him a rather poor moral exemplar. Richard Hayes From joy.vriens at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 08:56:26 2012 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 15:56:26 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> Message-ID: <4F63549A.2070807@gmail.com> I am afraid your bourgeois bohemianism is showing Richard. I wonder what the Buddha would have made of trade unions, strikes, all those workers rebelling against dharma and svadharma, ganging up in unions and forcefully claiming what wasn't given to them (adatt?d?na), claiming better wages, social reforms etc. that were high above the level of their karma, not rejoicing in the fortune and prosperity that the ruling classes rightfully inherited and earned, because of merit accumulated during previous existences and in their present life by supporting religious leaders preaching dharma, svadharma and adatt?d?na. "Take the example of Prince Charles, who was born as Queen Eliza?beth's son. Why was he born as her son? It was only possible through his own good karma. There is no one who issued the decree, "He is allowed to be the Prince of England and you are not allowed to be- born in that position." No one makes this decision. It is the automatic result of peo?ple's individual karmic accumulation created from the past. He had somehow gathered the merit to become Prince of England while other people did not. In the same way, when we see children dying of starvation in Africa, it raises the question, "Why were they born in Africa? Why do they have to suffer this way?" It is because they were reborn as human be?ings at this particular time and place in Africa. Did anyone force them to be reborn there? Did someone say, "Now you must be reborn in a place in Africa where you will starve to death"? No, no one forces living beings to be reborn in this way. The fact that people are born into such circum?stances is because of lacking merit. From that standpoint, it is definitely very important to accumulate merit. Having merit, one can be born the Prince of England; lacking merit, one may be born as a starving child in Africa. Think about this and see that there is a definite need to create merit." (Thrangu Rinpoche in King of Samadhi) "adatt?d?na?taking what is not given" From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Mar 16 08:59:39 2012 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 15:59:39 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> Message-ID: <4F63555B.1080109@xs4all.nl> Op 16-03-12 15:25, Richard Hayes schreef: > On Mar 16, 2012, at 1:59 AM, Christopher Fynn wrote: > >> Considering what academic publishers pay to their authors against the >> prices they charge for their books - who are the real pirates? > In 1988 I wrote a book on Dign?ga that, to my astonishment, some people still read. It's available on Amazon for $266.83 (although a used copy can be snapped up for a mere $250). It was published by D. Reidel, who sold the rights to Kluwer, who sold the rights to Springer. All efforts to get permission to make an affordable Asian edition available have failed. The price keeps going up. I have never received as much as 1? in royalties (about which I don't care at all, since I have an adequate income from selling my labour to the state of New Mexico). I was pleased to see the book made available on library.nu and urged people who inquired to download it from there as soon as possible, because it was obvious the site could never last in a anti-intellectual capitalist universe. > > Inconsistent critter that I am, I myself never downloaded anything from library.nu. I could never quite manage to find words for the principle I thought the site was violating, aside from the second Buddhist precept. If people want to make their own work available by putting PDF or ebook versions on their own websites, I'll happily download such material, but when a third party puts material on a site and bypasses both authors and their publishers, then it is pretty obviously adatt?d?na?taking what is not given. > > Robin Hood may have stolen from the rich to give to the poor, but for all that he was still a thief. And that makes him a rather poor moral exemplar. > There is one flaw in this reasoning, Richard, Robin Hood stole real money or goods, while downloading a copy of a text is just called metaphorically 'stealing' or 'piracy'. And the metaphores are based on financial interests, haphazardly made laws and on an outdated individualist metaphysics. If you abide by these laws you cooperate with the existing system and thereby support the crooks who make money with it. What would you do if someone acquired the copyrights on the Pali canon? It is vey hard to keep your hand clean in this case. erik From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Mar 16 09:15:42 2012 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 16:15:42 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: <4F63549A.2070807@gmail.com> References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> <4F63549A.2070807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F63591E.5010307@xs4all.nl> Op 16-03-12 15:56, Joy Vriens schreef: > I am afraid your bourgeois bohemianism is showing Richard. I wonder what > the Buddha would have made of trade unions, strikes, all those workers > rebelling against dharma and svadharma, ganging up in unions and > forcefully claiming what wasn't given to them (adatt?d?na), claiming > better wages, social reforms etc. that were high above the level of > their karma, not rejoicing in the fortune and prosperity that the ruling > classes rightfully inherited and earned, because of merit accumulated > during previous existences and in their present life by supporting > religious leaders preaching dharma, svadharma and adatt?d?na. Hi Joy, I personally think that we should use the Bauddha dharma to quit samasara and not to manage it. This managing of samsara we can safely leave to the experts who were trained to do this or 'wise' persons like Thrangu Rche and his colleagues who think they can do that better than others because they use mantras. erik From joy.vriens at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 09:29:39 2012 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 16:29:39 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Bourgeois Buddhism In-Reply-To: <5F9E2A25-24F7-447E-A539-97696A3AE5A3@unm.edu> References: <1331672782.4993.0.camel@rhayes-desktop> <6775C7FD-D609-430E-9B56-CEBA9C733F73@unm.edu> <4F608160.8060809@gmail.com> <5F9E2A25-24F7-447E-A539-97696A3AE5A3@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4F635C63.2080906@gmail.com> Richard wrote: "For those of you who live in Europe, there may be a few enlightened principles still lurking around to provoke admiration and even a little hope, but the lights have been completely and irrevocably extinguished in the United States of America, the United States of Mexico and the Dominion of Canada." How about this senator? Of course he is a Republican, but I can spot a bit of light there. BTW who is this D.Creator who is the source of the Human Rights? One of the founding fathers? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Yo8SjByixdo#! Joy From joy.vriens at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 10:36:07 2012 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 17:36:07 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: <4F63591E.5010307@xs4all.nl> References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> <4F63549A.2070807@gmail.com> <4F63591E.5010307@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4F636BF7.7090407@gmail.com> Hi Eric, Good advice. I have nothing against mantras as long as they help to act, speak and think in altruistic ways, heal the world and make it a better place. For you and for me and the entire human race. That is how D.Creator or R.Creator would have wanted it. "I personally think that we should use the Bauddha dharma to quit samasara and not to manage it. This managing of samsara we can safely leave to the experts who were trained to do this or 'wise' persons like Thrangu Rche and his colleagues who think they can do that better than others because they use mantras. erik" From jkirk at spro.net Fri Mar 16 11:07:14 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:07:14 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> Message-ID: <008d01cd0397$3ca4c9f0$b5ee5dd0$@spro.net> Maybe if we are lucky, a new provider will surface. Joanna __________________________________ Behalf Of Christopher Fynn Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 1:59 AM Considering what academic publishers pay to their authors against the prices they charge for their books - who are the real pirates? These guys looked more like Robin Hood to me Their site had overwhelmingly academic, scholarly and technical books. Where I live almost no one has a credit card, there is no library with books like that available, and even if they could be ordered many of those books would cost someone about an average months salary here. I guess it was too good to last _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Fri Mar 16 11:29:54 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:29:54 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: <4F63591E.5010307@xs4all.nl> References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> <4F63549A.2070807@gmail.com> <4F63591E.5010307@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <00a201cd039a$670ec300$352c4900$@spro.net> Hi Joy, I personally think that we should use the Bauddha dharma to quit samasara and not to manage it. This managing of samsara we can safely leave to the experts who were trained to do this or 'wise' persons like Thrangu Rche and his colleagues who think they can do that better than others because they use mantras. erik ----------------------------- Good advice. Trying to manage samsara is like getting close to the tar baby--once stuck, there's no parting of the ways. Joanna From roger60 at golden-wheel.net Fri Mar 16 22:52:40 2012 From: roger60 at golden-wheel.net (Roger60) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 14:52:40 +1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] dates for the historical Buddha In-Reply-To: <4F63549A.2070807@gmail.com> References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> <4F63549A.2070807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000c01cd03f9$cb321710$61964530$@net> Hello everyone, I have today a question for you scholars who are up to date with the latest research. It seems that nowadays some people claim that the historical Buddha was living not between 563-483 BC (which are the dates I knew as a consensus 20 years ago) but way later somewhere around 460-380 BC... What is your point of view on this later dating ? Is there any evidence to back it up ? Who is giving these dates and for what reasons ? Do you agree with these dates and if yes / no, why ? Thanks for your help ! Roger Garin-Michaud teaching French in Australia since 1990 ABN: 13772792037 mobile:0431-919-526 Skype: rogergarinmichaud Tutor Finder : http://www.tutorfinder.com.au/tutor/rogergarin-michaud.php Google Talk : rogergarinmichaud at gmail.com http://my.care2.com/thubten ? Le plus haut symbole du peuple, c?est le pav?. On lui marche dessus jusqu?? ce qu?il vous tombe sur la t?te. ? Victor Hugo From rahula_80 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 17 07:08:53 2012 From: rahula_80 at yahoo.com (Ngawang Dorje) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 06:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] dates for the historical Buddha In-Reply-To: <000c01cd03f9$cb321710$61964530$@net> References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> <4F63549A.2070807@gmail.com> <000c01cd03f9$cb321710$61964530$@net> Message-ID: <1331989733.6239.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Roger, Take a look at "Cooking the Buddhist Books: The Implications of the New Dating of the Buddha for the History of Early Indian Buddhism" by?Charles S. Prebish http://blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistethics/files/2010/05/prebish-article.pdf? Regards, Rahula From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Mar 17 13:52:01 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 13:52:01 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: <4F63555B.1080109@xs4all.nl> References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> <4F63555B.1080109@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <0CC823C8-F1AA-479C-B68C-2BB382D3F73D@unm.edu> On Mar 16, 2012, at 08:59 , Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > There is one flaw in this reasoning, Richard, Robin Hood stole real > money or goods, while downloading a copy of a text is just called > metaphorically 'stealing' or 'piracy'. I'm not sure about that, Erik. When I lived in Qu?bec, I developed a taste for French Canadian music. Every time I purchased a recording (mostly audiotapes in those days), I noticed a plea printed on the tape cassette not to make a copy of the tape. The Qu?bec music market is small, and every sale helps to support a musician. Every pirate copy of a tape is a potential sale lost. Fewer sales means less revenue for the musicians, and diminished income increases the likelihood that musicians will drop out of the recording scene. So I was always happy to purchase tapes. I think similar cases can be made for software and literature. While I love the concept of open-source software and make abundant use of it, I have never resented commercial software and have always paid for any of it that I used. > And the metaphores are based on > financial interests, haphazardly made laws and on an outdated > individualist metaphysics. I don't think that's entirely true. I see it as a much more practical matter. Producing recordings, software and literature and distributing it takes effort, and I have no objection to compensating effort. Naturally, in principle I wouldn't mind living in a moneyless society in which people traded goods and services through bartering, but given that I have no skills that anyone else would want in exchange for something of value, I'm happy enough to pay cash for the service of a plumber, as opposed to explaining bahuvrihi compounds to the plumber for five hours for every hour of work he does on my toilet. > What would you do if someone acquired the copyrights on the Pali > canon? The Pali Text Society has copyright on their editions and translations. I pay for them. But I also make ample use of on-line editions that have been provided by people who are happy enough to give away their labor rather than selling the fruits of it. So I guess my rule of thumb is that if someone offers to give something away, I accept it with gratitude. If they prefer to sell their goods or services, I'm happy to buy them if I can afford them or to go without them if I cannot. One good thing that came out of library.nu is that it made people aware of the small island nation of Niue, whose main commodity seems to be providing an Internet domain for cyber-pirates. I guess Niue is to the Internet as Liberia is to unseaworthy oil tankers. Richard Hayes From roger60 at golden-wheel.net Sun Mar 18 01:42:37 2012 From: roger60 at golden-wheel.net (Roger60) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 17:42:37 +1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] dates for the historical Buddha In-Reply-To: <1331989733.6239.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> <4F63549A.2070807@gmail.com> <000c01cd03f9$cb321710$61964530$@net> <1331989733.6239.YahooMailNeo@web120904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001501cd04da$b3631850$1a2948f0$@net> -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Ngawang Dorje Sent: samedi 17 mars 2012 23:09 To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] dates for the historical Buddha Hi Roger, Take a look at "Cooking the Buddhist Books: The Implications of the New Dating of the Buddha for the History of Early Indian Buddhism" by?Charles S. Prebish http://blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistethics/files/2010/05/prebish-article.pdf? Regards, Rahula ====== Thanks for that, I understand now why some people say 563-483 BC is no longer a "consensus range" If you ever need help with French texts do not hesitate to call me ! Roger Garin-Michaud teaching French in Australia since 1990 ABN: 13772792037 mobile:0431-919-526 Skype: rogergarinmichaud Tutor Finder?: http://www.tutorfinder.com.au/tutor/rogergarin-michaud.php Google Talk?: rogergarinmichaud at gmail.com http://my.care2.com/thubten ? Le plus haut symbole du peuple, c?est le pav?. On lui marche dessus jusqu?? ce qu?il vous tombe sur la t?te. ? Victor Hugo From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Sun Mar 18 22:50:57 2012 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 21:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down Message-ID: <1332132657.86884.YahooMailNeo@web112616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> In response to Richard Hayes? comments, I would say that starving artists are one thing, while those big publishing houses are quite another.? What most publishers don?t realize is that some of us were enticed to buy some of their (more affordable) books precisely *because* we could read one or two chapters of our *own* choosing in the pdf versions, all thanks to library.nu.? ?To go without? in the USA or Canada is very different from ?going without? in the Third World.? North Americans have plenty of town and college libraries with humongous collections of books, and quick inter-library loan services.? Folks here in Costa Rica have to wait about 2 weeks for a book to arrive, with an admittedly small risk?but a risk nonetheless?that the item will get stolen on the way.? We have libraries here too, of course, but my particular taste in Asian studies just isn?t that well stocked on library shelves.? I?m still waiting for an inter-library loan request that I put in last year.? Last time I checked, I was third in line.? Maybe now I?m second. To add more to this conundrum, here?s a link: http://e-library-free.blogspot.com/2012/02/free-illegal-knowledge-and-how-not-to.htmlKatherine Masis San Jose, Costa Rica? From sanskrit_studies at yahoo.com Sun Mar 18 23:18:29 2012 From: sanskrit_studies at yahoo.com (Geoff Morrison) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 22:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: <1332132657.86884.YahooMailNeo@web112616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1332132657.86884.YahooMailNeo@web112616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1332134309.35572.YahooMailNeo@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> The link in your post (below) does not work properly. The link returns the error message, "404-Page Not Found." Since some of us are interested in the fate of the "Library.nu" web site, please let us know what the correct link html syntax is, so that we can also read the web link that you have cited. TIA. ________________________________ From: Katherine Masis To: "buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com" Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In response to Richard Hayes? comments, I would say that starving artists are one thing, while those big publishing houses are quite another.? What most publishers don?t realize is that some of us were enticed to buy some of their (more affordable) books precisely *because* we could read one or two chapters of our *own* choosing in the pdf versions, all thanks to library.nu.? ?To go without? in the USA or Canada is very different from ?going without? in the Third World.? North Americans have plenty of town and college libraries with humongous collections of books, and quick inter-library loan services.? Folks here in Costa Rica have to wait about 2 weeks for a book to arrive, with an admittedly small risk?but a risk nonetheless?that the item will get stolen on the way.? We have libraries here too, of course, but my particular taste in Asian studies just isn?t that well stocked on library shelves.? I?m still waiting for an inter-library loan request that I put in last year.? Last time I checked, I was third in line.? Maybe now I?m second. To add more to this conundrum, here?s a link: http://e-library-free.blogspot.com/2012/02/free-illegal-knowledge-and-how-not-to.htmlKatherine Masis San Jose, Costa Rica? _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Mon Mar 19 00:30:08 2012 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 23:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Correct link (Was Good resource site shut down) Message-ID: <1332138608.79906.YahooMailNeo@web112619.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Oooops!? Somehow my name got added on to the last part of the link: ? http://e-library-free.blogspot.com/2012/02/free-illegal-knowledge-and-how-not-to.html ? It should end in "html" not "Katherine." ? Hope it works for you now. Katherine Masis From jkirk at spro.net Mon Mar 19 00:43:25 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 00:43:25 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: <1332134309.35572.YahooMailNeo@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1332132657.86884.YahooMailNeo@web112616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1332134309.35572.YahooMailNeo@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003e01cd059b$968a7ae0$c39f70a0$@spro.net> Her name got added to the link. Here it is: http://e-library-free.blogspot.com/2012/02/free-illegal-knowledge-and-how-not-to.html Joanna _______________________________ -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Morrison The link in your post (below) does not work properly. The link returns the error message, "404-Page Not Found." Since some of us are interested in the fate of the "Library.nu" web site, please let us know what the correct link html syntax is, so that we can also read the web link that you have cited. TIA. ________________________________ From: Katherine Masis To: "buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com" Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In response to Richard Hayes? comments, I would say that starving artists are one thing, while those big publishing houses are quite another. What most publishers don?t realize is that some of us were enticed to buy some of their (more affordable) books precisely *because* we could read one or two chapters of our *own* choosing in the pdf versions, all thanks to library.nu. ?To go without? in the USA or Canada is very different from ?going without? in the Third World. North Americans have plenty of town and college libraries with humongous collections of books, and quick inter-library loan services. Folks here in Costa Rica have to wait about 2 weeks for a book to arrive, with an admittedly small risk?but a risk nonetheless?that the item will get stolen on the way. We have libraries here too, of course, but my particular taste in Asian studies just isn?t that well stocked on library shelves. I?m still waiting for an inter-library loan request that I put in last year. Last time I checked, I was third in line. Maybe now I?m second. To add more to this conundrum, here?s a link: http://e-library-free.blogspot.com/2012/02/free-illegal-knowledge-and-how-not-to.html Masis San Jose, Costa Rica _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From chris.fynn at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 03:17:39 2012 From: chris.fynn at gmail.com (Christopher Fynn) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 15:17:39 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> Message-ID: On 16/03/2012, Richard Hayes wrote: > On Mar 16, 2012, at 1:59 AM, Christopher Fynn wrote: >> Considering what academic publishers pay to their authors against the >> prices they charge for their books - who are the real pirates? > In 1988 I wrote a book on Dign?ga that, to my astonishment, some people > still read. It's available on Amazon for $266.83 (although a used copy can > be snapped up for a mere $250). It was published by D. Reidel, who sold the > rights to Kluwer, who sold the rights to Springer. All efforts to get > permission to make an affordable Asian edition available have failed. The > price keeps going up. I have never received as much as 1? in royalties > (about which I don't care at all, since I have an adequate income from > selling my labour to the state of New Mexico) Hmm if Springer are using a print on demand service to print the books they publish it will cost them maybe $15 to print one copy of your book whenever it is ordered and another few of dollars to have it sent out, All this is automated, So they receive a cheque for about $240 minus Amazon's selling fee for each copy of your book sold without having to do anything. The order is actually routed to the print-on demand service who print the book and send it out by mail or via Amazon.. Publishers no longer have to keep warehouses of books, and their titles never go out of print.. Of course they don't want to allow an affordable Asian edition - because some of those copies would leak back to America and Europe potentially depriving them of some of their unearned income. It is very easy to set up a "publishing company" this way - all you have to do is register a company, obtain a series of ISBN numbers, prepare PDFs of the books you publish and let the print on demand service do the rest. There is a small initial set-up fee for each title. You can of course use the same PDF file to make your Kindle / e-book version of the book. . > Robin Hood may have stolen from the rich to give to the poor, but for all > that he was still a thief. And that makes him a rather poor moral exemplar. Ah - but, since he was giving it to them, were the people he gave to, taking what is not given? Perhaps Robin Hood was a hidden Bodhisattva taking on all the "sin" of stealing to himself to alleviate the sufferings of the poor - . maybe he was even removing some of King John's bad Karma as well. He did have some sort of religious sanction (Friar Tuck) From chris.fynn at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 03:51:01 2012 From: chris.fynn at gmail.com (Christopher Fynn) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 15:51:01 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: <4F63549A.2070807@gmail.com> References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> <4F63549A.2070807@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 16/03/2012, Joy Vriens wrote: > "Take the example of Prince Charles, who was born as Queen Eliza?beth's > son. Why was he born as her son? It was only possible through his own > good karma. There is no one who issued the decree, "He is allowed to be > the Prince of England and you are not allowed to be- born in that > position." No one makes this decision. It is the automatic result of > peo?ple's individual karmic accumulation created from the past. He had > somehow gathered the merit to become Prince of England while other > people did not. In the same way, when we see children dying of > starvation in Africa, it raises the question, "Why were they born in > Africa? Why do they have to suffer this way?" It is because they were > reborn as human be?ings at this particular time and place in Africa. Did > anyone force them to be reborn there? Did someone say, "Now you must be > reborn in a place in Africa where you will starve to death"? No, no one > forces living beings to be reborn in this way. The fact that people are > born into such circum?stances is because of lacking merit. From that > standpoint, it is definitely very important to accumulate merit. Having > merit, one can be born the Prince of England; lacking merit, one may be > born as a starving child in Africa. Think about this and see that there > is a definite need to create merit." (Thrangu Rinpoche in King of Samadhi) Though Thrangu Rinpoche is a nice man, some of the stuff he teaches to a supposedly educated western audience is shocking - and it is even more shocking that this audience rarely challenge his views. Fortunately not all Tibetan Lamas are so literalistic. - (Recently I read a transcript of one of Thrangu Rinpoche's teachings - when asked a question about how something he had said related to something Longchenpa had written - he told the questioner that he had never read the works of Longchenpa. And this man is supposed to be one of the foremost Tibetan scholars!) . For saying this I've probably lost whatever merit I have accumulated and now I'll be reborn as one of those starving children in Africa. From slachs at att.net Mon Mar 19 05:50:13 2012 From: slachs at att.net (Stuart Lachs) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 04:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Hua-t'ou meditation In-Reply-To: <1332132657.86884.YahooMailNeo@web112616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1332157813.37074.YahooMailClassic@web83809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear colleagues, I have a new paper, ?Hua-t?ou: A Method of Zen Meditation.? The paper discusses a form of meditation practice known in Chinese as hua- t?ou. It was popularized by the Chinese Zen master Ta-Hui (1089 ? 1163) a member of the Lin-Chi sect of?Zen. In particular, the paper discusses what a hua-t?ou is, why Ta-Hui placed so much importance on it, why this practice could be of interest to at least some people today, give examples of well known hua-t?ou, offer one way to practice this method, describe some states of mind that may arise when doing the practice, offer some?personal experience from my own long years of?practicing the hua-t?ou, and discuss what it means to have a Zen awakening. In conclusion, I offer cautions related to?having an awakening experience and the importance of continuing practice thereafter. The paper is available on the internet at, http://www.hf.uio.no/ikos/forskning/nettverk/obsf/podcast/2012/docs/LachsZen_2012_03_16.pdf. Stuart Lachs From bernie.simon at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 05:57:40 2012 From: bernie.simon at gmail.com (Bernie Simon) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 07:57:40 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 3/19/12 7:50 AM, "buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com" wrote: >You can of course use the same PDF file to make your Kindle / e-book >version of the book. You can't make an e-book from a pdf. The pdf formatting is too low level. Typically you would have a Word (.doc) file and make the pdf, kindle, and epub file from it, which is how Smashword is set up. From joy.vriens at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 07:40:52 2012 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:40:52 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> <4F63549A.2070807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F673764.8040508@gmail.com> Hi Chris, I am convinced he is a nice man with the best intentions. A fair amount of literalism and orthodoxy have helped Tibetan Buddhism survive, but perhaps other qualities are required now. I recently read about the Thai "awakening" during the 19/20th century, with figures as Buddhadasa and regretted how none such thing seem to have happened for Tibetan Buddhism, or rather too discretely, with some exceptions like Gendun Ch?phel. Other lamas adopted a certain openness publicly towards a Western public, while actually remaining very traditional and literalistic. But things seem to be changing now fortunately. It is not an option anymore. Tibetan Buddhism has to, not only for the sake of "convert" Buddhists, but also for its own youth. There seem to be lamas with a genuin wide interest, who perhaps don't exactly welcome critical thinking yet but don't shy away from it. In the past bodhisattvas would purposely go to hell to make themselves useful there. Nowadays they seem to want to create merit in order to avoid being reborn in starving countries. Bourgois Buddhism must be spreading fast. As an alternative to creating merit, something could perhaps directly be done about the situation in "Africa". If the situation is improved globally, it doesn't matter where one will be reborn, in "Africa", another continent or in Buckingham Palace (which may seem appealing but it does come with Windsor genes). I am sure we could amend the law of Karma to make that into a case of merit creation. ;-) Joy --- Though Thrangu Rinpoche is a nice man, some of the stuff he teaches to a supposedly educated western audience is shocking - and it is even more shocking that this audience rarely challenge his views. Fortunately not all Tibetan Lamas are so literalistic. - (Recently I read a transcript of one of Thrangu Rinpoche's teachings - when asked a question about how something he had said related to something Longchenpa had written - he told the questioner that he had never read the works of Longchenpa. And this man is supposed to be one of the foremost Tibetan scholars!) . For saying this I've probably lost whatever merit I have accumulated and now I'll be reborn as one of those starving children in Africa. From joy.vriens at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 07:51:19 2012 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:51:19 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: <0CC823C8-F1AA-479C-B68C-2BB382D3F73D@unm.edu> References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> <4F63555B.1080109@xs4all.nl> <0CC823C8-F1AA-479C-B68C-2BB382D3F73D@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4F6739D7.1010700@gmail.com> Richard wrote: One good thing that came out of library.nu is that it made people aware of the small island nation of Niue, whose main commodity seems to be providing an Internet domain for cyber-pirates. I guess Niue is to the Internet as Liberia is to unseaworthy oil tankers. " One of the technical things we always optimize is where to put our front machines. They are the ones that re-direct your traffic to a secret location. We have now decided to try to build something extraordinary. With the development of GPS controlled drones, far-reaching cheap radio equipment and tiny new computers like theRaspberry Pi , we're going to experiment with sending out some small drones that will float some kilometers up in the air. This way our machines will have to be shut down with aeroplanes in order to shut down the system. A real act of war. We're just starting so we haven't figured everything out yet. But we can't limit ourselves to hosting things just on land anymore. These Low Orbit Server Stations (LOSS) are just the first attempt. With modern radio transmitters we can get over 100Mbps per node up to 50km away. For the proxy system we're building, that's more than enough. But when time comes we will host in all parts of the galaxy, being true to our slogan of being the galaxy's most resilient system. And all of the parts we'll use to build/that/system on will be downloadable." Posted Y-day 20:34 by MrSpock http://thepiratebay.se/blog/210 From elihusmith at yahoo.com Mon Mar 19 09:09:22 2012 From: elihusmith at yahoo.com (Elihu Smith) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 08:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1332169762.10914.YahooMailClassic@web81903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Stuart, Thank you for your paper on hua-t'ou. As another resource on this topic, I highly recommend "How Zen Became Zen: The Dispute Over Enlightenment and the Formation of Chan Buddhism in Song-Dynasty China," by Morten Schlutter. He explores hua-tou and Ta-hui, as well as C?od?ng and Linji lineage formation and conflicts, in depth and with interesting and insightful findings. Elihu Smith > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 04:50:13 -0700 (PDT) > From: Stuart Lachs > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Hua-t'ou meditation > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Message-ID: > ??? <1332157813.37074.YahooMailClassic at web83809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > I have a new paper, ?Hua-t?ou: A Method of Zen Meditation.? > > > The paper discusses a form of meditation practice known in > Chinese as hua- > t?ou. It was popularized by the Chinese Zen master Ta-Hui > (1089 ? 1163) a > member of the Lin-Chi sect of?Zen. > > > In particular, the paper discusses what a hua-t?ou is, why > Ta-Hui placed so > much importance on it, why this practice could be of > interest to at least some > people today, give examples of well known hua-t?ou, offer > one way to practice > this method, describe some states of mind that may arise > when doing the > practice, offer some?personal experience from my own long > years of?practicing > the hua-t?ou, and discuss what it means to have a Zen > awakening. In conclusion, > I offer cautions related to?having an awakening experience > and the > importance of continuing practice thereafter. > > > The paper is available on the internet at, > > http://www.hf.uio.no/ikos/forskning/nettverk/obsf/podcast/2012/docs/LachsZen_2012_03_16.pdf. > > > Stuart Lachs > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > End of buddha-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 16 > **************************************** > From chris.fynn at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 09:09:56 2012 From: chris.fynn at gmail.com (Christopher Fynn) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:09:56 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.pdftoepub.com/ http://www.pdftokindle.com/ On 19/03/2012, Bernie Simon wrote: > On 3/19/12 7:50 AM, "buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com" > wrote: > >>You can of course use the same PDF file to make your Kindle / e-book >>version of the book. > > You can't make an e-book from a pdf. The pdf formatting is too low level. > Typically you would have a Word (.doc) file and make the pdf, kindle, and > epub file from it, which is how Smashword is set up. http://www.pdftoepub.com/ http://www.pdftokindle.com/ - Chris From chris.fynn at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 09:20:09 2012 From: chris.fynn at gmail.com (Christopher Fynn) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:20:09 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] query about a term in Japanese zen, translated as "soul" in one text. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This book may be of interest: Jungnok Park "How Buddhism Acquired a Soul on the Way to China" Publisher's Description: "Why did some Buddhist translators in China interpolate terms designating an agent which did not appear in the original texts? The Chinese made use of raw material imported from India; however, they added some ?seasonings? peculiar to China and developed their own ?recipes? about how to construct the ideas of Buddhism. While Indian Buddhists constructed their ideas of self by means of empiricism, anti-Brahmanism and analytic reasoning, the Chinese Buddhists constructed their ideas of self by means of non-analytic insights, utilising pre-established epistemology and cosmogony. Furthermore, many of the basic renderings had specific implications that were peculiar to China. For example, while shen in philosophical Daoism originally signified an agent of thought, which disintegrates after bodily death, Buddhists added to it the property of permanent existence. Since many Buddhists in China read the reinterpreted term shen with the implications of the established epistemology and cosmogony, they came to develop their own ideas of self. After the late 6C, highly educated Buddhist theorists came to avoid including the idea of an imperishable soul in their doctrinal system. However, the idea of a permanent agent of perception remained vividly alive even during the development of Chinese Buddhism after the 7C." On 02/01/2012, Sally McAra wrote: > Hi there, > Happy new year, all! > After hearing a teisho about Bassui (downloaded from the Rochester Zen > Center website, the first of a series of 5 talks on Bassui by Roshi > Bodhin Kjolhede), I've been looking online at a book called "Mud and > Water: The Teachings of Zen Master Bassui." (Bassui Tokusho, transl. > Arthur Braverman) > (see > http://www.amazon.com/Mud-Water-Teachings-Master-Bassui/dp/0861713206#reader_0861713206 > ) > > In the introduction (p. 3) the word "soul" is used in recounting > Bassui's inquiry: at a memorial service for his late father, he asked > the officiating priest how his dead father could eat the food > offerings on the altar. The priest told him that his father's "soul" > would receive the offerings, and this led to Bassui's inquiry "What is > this thing called a soul?" > > Given the emphasis on "anatman" in Buddhism, I'm curious about the use > of the English word "soul" in this translation and wondering if anyone > familiar with the Japanese version of Bassui's biography that the > translator is referring to might be able to tell me what the Japanese > term was? I'm not a student of Japanese, but would like to know the > term and any other ways it might be glossed in English. Braverman also > uses the word "soul" when talking about what transmigrates between the > 6 realms of existence (see p. 220, note 25). > NB., Philip Kapleau also uses the word soul in his "editor's > introduction" to one of Bassui's Dharma talks (see Three Pillars of > Zen, Part IV - pages 174ff in my edition, 2000). > > Cheers > Sally > PS if anyone responds to my query and I don't reply, apologies, it's > because I'm about to go away tomorrow for 7 days and won't have > computer access. But I'm looking forward to your answers. > From jkirk at spro.net Mon Mar 19 10:56:58 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 10:56:58 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: <4F673764.8040508@gmail.com> References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> <4F63549A.2070807@gmail.com> <4F673764.8040508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009501cd05f1$4c96c960$e5c45c20$@spro.net> Hi Joy and Chris, Hm---the template for starving ethnics used to be Armenians ("Eat up your dinner, dear--remember the starving Armenians.") --now it's Africans. I would hope, in their eagerness to make merit and/or to be bodhisattvas, that Buddhists would give some preliminary thought as to the harm already caused by transfers of coin and credit to corrupt African governments and organisations, as well as to the fact that some NGOs simply end up providing jobs for non-Africans even as they act as quartermasters for US-produced commodities -- while the starvation and mayhem in Africa not only continues, but gets worse. Joanna __________________________ Of Joy Vriens Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 7:41 AM Hi Chris, I am convinced he is a nice man with the best intentions. A fair amount of literalism and orthodoxy have helped Tibetan Buddhism survive, but perhaps other qualities are required now. I recently read about the Thai "awakening" during the 19/20th century, with figures as Buddhadasa and regretted how none such thing seem to have happened for Tibetan Buddhism, or rather too discretely, with some exceptions like Gendun Ch?phel. Other lamas adopted a certain openness publicly towards a Western public, while actually remaining very traditional and literalistic. But things seem to be changing now fortunately. It is not an option anymore. Tibetan Buddhism has to, not only for the sake of "convert" Buddhists, but also for its own youth. There seem to be lamas with a genuin wide interest, who perhaps don't exactly welcome critical thinking yet but don't shy away from it. In the past bodhisattvas would purposely go to hell to make themselves useful there. Nowadays they seem to want to create merit in order to avoid being reborn in starving countries. Bourgois Buddhism must be spreading fast. As an alternative to creating merit, something could perhaps directly be done about the situation in "Africa". If the situation is improved globally, it doesn't matter where one will be reborn, in "Africa", another continent or in Buckingham Palace (which may seem appealing but it does come with Windsor genes). I am sure we could amend the law of Karma to make that into a case of merit creation. ;-) Joy --- Though Thrangu Rinpoche is a nice man, some of the stuff he teaches to a supposedly educated western audience is shocking - and it is even more shocking that this audience rarely challenge his views. Fortunately not all Tibetan Lamas are so literalistic. - (Recently I read a transcript of one of Thrangu Rinpoche's teachings - when asked a question about how something he had said related to something Longchenpa had written - he told the questioner that he had never read the works of Longchenpa. And this man is supposed to be one of the foremost Tibetan scholars!) . For saying this I've probably lost whatever merit I have accumulated and now I'll be reborn as one of those starving children in Africa. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Mon Mar 19 11:45:31 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:45:31 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] PS--Good resource site shut down Message-ID: <001c01cd05f8$14fa2ae0$3eee80a0$@spro.net> PS-- These concerns apply in many other countries where do-gooders think they are doing some good, not just in Africa. I also wish to note that there ARE respectable private NGOs in operation around the globe, that employ locals, put some of them on their boards, and also consult them as to their needs. JK __________________ Hi Joy and Chris, Hm---the template for starving ethnics used to be Armenians ("Eat up your dinner, dear--remember the starving Armenians.") --now it's Africans. I would hope, in their eagerness to make merit and/or to be bodhisattvas, that Buddhists would give some preliminary thought as to the harm already caused by transfers of coin and credit to corrupt African governments and organisations, as well as to the fact that some NGOs simply end up providing jobs for non-Africans even as they act as quartermasters for US-produced commodities -- while the starvation and mayhem in Africa not only continues, but gets worse. Joanna __________________________ Of Joy Vriens Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 7:41 AM Hi Chris, I am convinced he is a nice man with the best intentions. A fair amount of literalism and orthodoxy have helped Tibetan Buddhism survive, but perhaps other qualities are required now. I recently read about the Thai "awakening" during the 19/20th century, with figures as Buddhadasa and regretted how none such thing seem to have happened for Tibetan Buddhism, or rather too discretely, with some exceptions like Gendun Ch?phel. Other lamas adopted a certain openness publicly towards a Western public, while actually remaining very traditional and literalistic. But things seem to be changing now fortunately. It is not an option anymore. Tibetan Buddhism has to, not only for the sake of "convert" Buddhists, but also for its own youth. There seem to be lamas with a genuin wide interest, who perhaps don't exactly welcome critical thinking yet but don't shy away from it. In the past bodhisattvas would purposely go to hell to make themselves useful there. Nowadays they seem to want to create merit in order to avoid being reborn in starving countries. Bourgois Buddhism must be spreading fast. As an alternative to creating merit, something could perhaps directly be done about the situation in "Africa". If the situation is improved globally, it doesn't matter where one will be reborn, in "Africa", another continent or in Buckingham Palace (which may seem appealing but it does come with Windsor genes). I am sure we could amend the law of Karma to make that into a case of merit creation. ;-) Joy --- Though Thrangu Rinpoche is a nice man, some of the stuff he teaches to a supposedly educated western audience is shocking - and it is even more shocking that this audience rarely challenge his views. Fortunately not all Tibetan Lamas are so literalistic. - (Recently I read a transcript of one of Thrangu Rinpoche's teachings - when asked a question about how something he had said related to something Longchenpa had written - he told the questioner that he had never read the works of Longchenpa. And this man is supposed to be one of the foremost Tibetan scholars!) . For saying this I've probably lost whatever merit I have accumulated and now I'll be reborn as one of those starving children in Africa. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From joy.vriens at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 12:05:35 2012 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:05:35 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Good resource site shut down In-Reply-To: <009501cd05f1$4c96c960$e5c45c20$@spro.net> References: <1331405448.27216.YahooMailNeo@web112605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003b01cd00d4$3c4bf4d0$b4e3de70$@spro.net> <4F63549A.2070807@gmail.com> <4F673764.8040508@gmail.com> <009501cd05f1$4c96c960$e5c45c20$@spro.net> Message-ID: <4F67756F.30309@gmail.com> Hi Jo, Thank you for attenuating my enthusiasm and putting things in perspective. Saying "it's their karma" is denying responsability, bodhisattvas can be do-gooders paving highways to hell with good intentions. And then there are those who want to quit samsara and not to manage it. Stalemate? Perhaps Chinese investments will do the trick? Joy Hm---the template for starving ethnics used to be Armenians ("Eat up your dinner, dear--remember the starving Armenians.") --now it's Africans. I would hope, in their eagerness to make merit and/or to be bodhisattvas, that Buddhists would give some preliminary thought as to the harm already caused by transfers of coin and credit to corrupt African governments and organisations, as well as to the fact that some NGOs simply end up providing jobs for non-Africans even as they act as quartermasters for US-produced commodities -- while the starvation and mayhem in Africa not only continues, but gets worse. Joanna From slachs at att.net Mon Mar 19 14:13:38 2012 From: slachs at att.net (Stuart Lachs) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 13:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: <1332169762.10914.YahooMailClassic@web81903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1332188018.29062.YahooMailClassic@web83812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi Elihu, Thanks for the note. I too like Morten's book, How Zen Became Zen, I reference it in a few footnotes in the huat-t'ou paper. I found it a fascinating read. I have liked Morten's work for many years now. All the best, Stuart --- On Mon, 3/19/12, Elihu Smith wrote: From: Elihu Smith Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 16 To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Date: Monday, March 19, 2012, 11:09 AM Stuart, Thank you for your paper on hua-t'ou. As another resource on this topic, I highly recommend "How Zen Became Zen: The Dispute Over Enlightenment and the Formation of Chan Buddhism in Song-Dynasty China," by Morten Schlutter. He explores hua-tou and Ta-hui, as well as C?od?ng and Linji lineage formation and conflicts, in depth and with interesting and insightful findings. Elihu Smith > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 04:50:13 -0700 (PDT) > From: Stuart Lachs > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Hua-t'ou meditation > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Message-ID: > ??? <1332157813.37074.YahooMailClassic at web83809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > I have a new paper, ?Hua-t?ou: A Method of Zen Meditation.? > > > The paper discusses a form of meditation practice known in > Chinese as hua- > t?ou. It was popularized by the Chinese Zen master Ta-Hui > (1089 ? 1163) a > member of the Lin-Chi sect of?Zen. >? > > In particular, the paper discusses what a hua-t?ou is, why > Ta-Hui placed so > much importance on it, why this practice could be of > interest to at least some > people today, give examples of well known hua-t?ou, offer > one way to practice > this method, describe some states of mind that may arise > when doing the > practice, offer some?personal experience from my own long > years of?practicing > the hua-t?ou, and discuss what it means to have a Zen > awakening. In conclusion, > I offer cautions related to?having an awakening experience > and the > importance of continuing practice thereafter. > > > The paper is available on the internet at, > > http://www.hf.uio.no/ikos/forskning/nettverk/obsf/podcast/2012/docs/LachsZen_2012_03_16.pdf. > > > Stuart Lachs > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > End of buddha-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 16 > **************************************** > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From slachs at att.net Mon Mar 19 14:20:09 2012 From: slachs at att.net (Stuart Lachs) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 13:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: <1332188018.29062.YahooMailClassic@web83812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1332188409.27027.YahooMailClassic@web83808.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I apologize for sending to the list, what I thought was a private reply to Elihu. Stuart Hi Elihu, Thanks for the note. I too like Morten's book, How Zen Became Zen, I reference it in a few footnotes in the huat-t'ou paper. I found it a fascinating read. I have liked Morten's work for many years now. All the best, Stuart --- On Mon, 3/19/12, Elihu Smith wrote: From: Elihu Smith Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 16 To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Date: Monday, March 19, 2012, 11:09 AM Stuart, Thank you for your paper on hua-t'ou. As another resource on this topic, I highly recommend "How Zen Became Zen: The Dispute Over Enlightenment and the Formation of Chan Buddhism in Song-Dynasty China," by Morten Schlutter. He explores hua-tou and Ta-hui, as well as C?od?ng and Linji lineage formation and conflicts, in depth and with interesting and insightful findings. Elihu Smith > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 04:50:13 -0700 (PDT) > From: Stuart Lachs > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Hua-t'ou meditation > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Message-ID: > ??? <1332157813.37074.YahooMailClassic at web83809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > I have a new paper, ?Hua-t?ou: A Method of Zen Meditation.? > > > The paper discusses a form of meditation practice known in > Chinese as hua- > t?ou. It was popularized by the Chinese Zen master Ta-Hui > (1089 ? 1163) a > member of the Lin-Chi sect of?Zen. >? > > In particular, the paper discusses what a hua-t?ou is, why > Ta-Hui placed so > much importance on it, why this practice could be of > interest to at least some > people today, give examples of well known hua-t?ou, offer > one way to practice > this method, describe some states of mind that may arise > when doing the > practice, offer some?personal experience from my own long > years of?practicing > the hua-t?ou, and discuss what it means to have a Zen > awakening. In conclusion, > I offer cautions related to?having an awakening experience > and the > importance of continuing practice thereafter. > > > The paper is available on the internet at, > > http://www.hf.uio.no/ikos/forskning/nettverk/obsf/podcast/2012/docs/LachsZen_2012_03_16.pdf. > > > Stuart Lachs > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > End of buddha-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 16 > **************************************** > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From bernie.simon at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 17:51:01 2012 From: bernie.simon at gmail.com (Bernard Simon) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:51:01 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <048C0EDB-94F0-46FC-9383-3342DC96B694@gmai.com> On Mar 19, 2012, at 11:09 AM, Christopher Fynn wrote: >> You can't make an e-book from a pdf. The pdf formatting is too low >> level. >> Typically you would have a Word (.doc) file and make the pdf, >> kindle, and >> epub file from it, which is how Smashword is set up. > > http://www.pdftoepub.com/ > http://www.pdftokindle.com/ Well, yes, you can turn a pdf into an e-book, and I've done it myself. What I should have said is that the result is not acceptable, at least to me. The problem is that pdf format is too low level.The instructions in a pdf file are at the level of where to place each character on the page. Any higher level semantics, like organization into paragraphs and chapters is lost. You can try to guess at the structure using heuristics, but the results aren't very satisfactory. Which is why starting with a word processing file is a much better way of creating e-books, if the document was competently created using styles. From m.gouin at tsd.ac.uk Tue Mar 20 01:49:05 2012 From: m.gouin at tsd.ac.uk (Margaret Gouin) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 07:49:05 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <973DEFA69068C54A91F871887CB8B3A7A25721BEC0@lp10.campus.local> There's a plug-in for OpenOffice and LibreOffice which makes epub files directly from your document. As for making an ebook from a pdf, it depends on the pdf I think, and how you made it (with what software). If you have a tagged file, it should be fine. Calibre (software: www.calibre-ebook.com) does a lot of conversions although some of them are a bit rough-and-ready. Bottom line: there are lots of ways to make an ebook of your document and quite a few of them are free. Margaret Gouin, PhD (Bristol) Honorary Research Fellow School of Theology, Religious Studies and Islamic Studies University of Wales Trinity Saint David ________________________________________ From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Bernie Simon [bernie.simon at gmail.com] Sent: 19 March 2012 12:57 To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 16 On 3/19/12 7:50 AM, "buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com" wrote: >You can of course use the same PDF file to make your Kindle / e-book >version of the book. You can't make an e-book from a pdf. The pdf formatting is too low level. Typically you would have a Word (.doc) file and make the pdf, kindle, and epub file from it, which is how Smashword is set up. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From dayamati at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 06:35:02 2012 From: dayamati at gmail.com (=?big5-hkscs?B?RGF5iGdtYXRpIFJpY2hhcmQgSGF5ZXM=?=) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 06:35:02 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Library.nu Message-ID: If what you are getting online is for free, you are not the customer, you are the product. -Jonathan Zittrain, professor of Internet law (b. 1969) From joy.vriens at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 07:25:28 2012 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 14:25:28 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Library.nu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F688548.1020309@gmail.com> Richard Hayes : > If what you are getting online is for free, you are not the customer, you are the product. -Jonathan Zittrain, professor of Internet law (b. 1969) Sitting on the beach of Saint-Cyr and looking at the sunset is still free. One day, the municipality may be forced to sell the beach, someone may buy it and become its ? legal owner ?. In which case, the sun and its setting will still be free, but technically speaking, it will be impossible to watch it without having access to the beach and paying the owner ? his due ?. The owner may add some crappy deckchairs, open a bar, with topless waitresses, add some live music, pole dancers and increase the access fee. But all I wanted to see is the sunset, which is still free, but not accessible unless one pays the fee that includes all the extras. What I like and look for on the Internet are ideas. Ideas are the salt of the earth, the real stuff. But the access to ideas requires a media, some material form in which they can be contained or transmitted. I have been told once that Microsoft was planning to buy the legal rights to all digital representations of art. I don't know whether that actually happened. Google started scanning all books without copyright in public libraries and making them available on the Internet. These services are paid for through advertising and in case that ever stopped, in other ways. But be convinced that a toll will be levyed somehow and that art and literature will have their publicans, whereas this access, culture (not commercial commodities), ought to be a public service. And that is the real issue here. Jonathan Zittrain is a Professor of Law at Harvard Law Schooland a co-founder of the Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Stanford Law School. CIS donors include: Bosch Corporation California I.S.P. Association, Inc.*Google, Inc*. KamberLaw, LLC (result of a cy pres settlement) Lerach Coughlin Stoia Geller Rudman & Robins LLP (result of a cy pres settlement) *Microsoft *National Internet Alliance Nissan Motor Co., Ltd. Perkins Cole LLP (result of a cy pres settlement) State Farm Companies The Rose Foundation Toyota Motor Engineering & Manufacturing North America, Inc. Volkswagen Group of America Electronic Research Lab (source : http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/about-us) Buddhist content : we, professor Zittrain, you, me, are the product of many forces interacting (prat?tyasamutpada) Joy From joy.vriens at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 12:00:48 2012 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:00:48 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Privatizing Mongolian yacks Message-ID: <4F68C5D0.1090205@gmail.com> The taking what is not given (adatt?d?na), as defined in the Buddhist canon, obviously doesn?t cover political notions of trying to extend rights (by one party) or to reduce them (by the other). Both parties will accuse the other of ? thieving ? and ? stealing ?. Some (Occupy, Indign?s) describe the battle of ? access ? as one between ? 1% ? and ? 99% ? of the population. What is at stake is the justice of a system (dharma?). Naomi Klein (Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives), author of ? The Shock Doctrine ?, gave a lecture (in 6 parts) on her book, available on Youtube. It will give an idea and try to make more visible what tries to remain invisible. On the one hand there is a limitation of ? access ? to a decreasing number of happy few, wheras on the other hand the privacy rights of individuals have to yield (Stellar Wind). The Shock Doctrine (Naomi Klein, 6 videos) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka3Pb_StJn4&feature=relmfu (the explanation of the privatization of Mongolian yacks is given in part 1) Stellar Wind http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/2/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_wind_%28code_name%29 From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Mar 23 02:26:10 2012 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 09:26:10 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] self immolation and suppression Message-ID: <4F6C33A2.7090005@xs4all.nl> Just saw a new article in the NY Times http://is.gd/FxpgZF erik From bankei at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 03:49:25 2012 From: bankei at gmail.com (Bankei) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 20:49:25 +1100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Hua-t'ou meditation In-Reply-To: <1332157813.37074.YahooMailClassic@web83809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <1332132657.86884.YahooMailNeo@web112616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1332157813.37074.YahooMailClassic@web83809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > I have a new paper, ?Hua-t?ou: A Method of Zen Meditation.? > > The paper discusses a form of meditation practice known in Chinese as hua- > t?ou. It was popularized by the Chinese Zen master Ta-Hui (1089 ? 1163) a > member of the Lin-Chi sect of Zen. > > > The paper is available on the internet at, > > > http://www.hf.uio.no/ikos/forskning/nettverk/obsf/podcast/2012/docs/LachsZen_2012_03_16.pdf > . > > > Stuart Lachs > > Thank you Stuart. I should also point out to the list that your talk on this topic is available as a podcast at: http://www.hf.uio.no/ikos/english/research/network/obsf/podcast/ Bankie From chris.fynn at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 04:42:09 2012 From: chris.fynn at gmail.com (Christopher Fynn) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:42:09 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] self immolation and suppression In-Reply-To: <4F6C33A2.7090005@xs4all.nl> References: <4F6C33A2.7090005@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: It seems these acts of self-immolation by Tibetans have now started to spread to India: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17534104 http://is.gd/Zt21vm - C On 23/03/2012, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > Just saw a new article in the NY Times > http://is.gd/FxpgZF > > erik From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Mar 28 05:59:36 2012 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 06:59:36 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] self immolation and suppression References: <4F6C33A2.7090005@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <004301cd0cda$3fc0dba0$6602a8c0@Dan> A shade more detail. http://is.gd/HRteG1 Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Fynn" > It seems these acts of self-immolation by Tibetans have now started > to spread to India: > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17534104 > > http://is.gd/Zt21vm From jkirk at spro.net Wed Mar 28 12:30:15 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 12:30:15 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] MICHAEL RABE'S WEBSITE Message-ID: <00c201cd0d10$d2ac08a0$780419e0$@spro.net> Just heard of the death from cancer of a wonderful young colleague in the art history of India and Buddhism. He taught at SXU for many years. See his photos from the "field" here: We can enjoy seeing Michael's photos and thinking of him, here: http://faculty.sxu.edu/~rabe/ Joanna K. From jkirk at spro.net Wed Mar 28 22:43:36 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 22:43:36 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] iNTERESTING US MAP GRAPHIC SHOWING %AGE OF THE VARIOUS RELIGIONS Message-ID: <002a01cd0d66$81c6ff20$8554fd60$@spro.net> Move cursor over a state and find out. Interesting that the only states that have 2% of Buddhists are California (no surprise), Oregon (ditto), and New Mexico (ditto?). NM is also more balanced than some states: 26% evangelicals, 24% Catholics, and 16% unaffiliated. Whereas, in the other states Buddhism is only .5 to 1%. I thought there'd be more Buddhists along the eastern seaboard states, but no. Joanna From franz at mind2mind.net Wed Mar 28 23:37:13 2012 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 22:37:13 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] iNTERESTING US MAP GRAPHIC SHOWING %AGE OF THE VARIOUS RELIGIONS In-Reply-To: <002a01cd0d66$81c6ff20$8554fd60$@spro.net> References: <002a01cd0d66$81c6ff20$8554fd60$@spro.net> Message-ID: Dear Joanna, The link? At the AAR in San Francisco, last November, there was a great provisional report by J. Gordon Melton on Buddhist demographics in the United States as reflected in the 2010 census. I wonder if this graph comes from that data. Franz From jkirk at spro.net Thu Mar 29 09:55:24 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 09:55:24 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] iNTERESTING US MAP GRAPHIC SHOWING %AGE OF THE VARIOUS RELIGIONS In-Reply-To: References: <002a01cd0d66$81c6ff20$8554fd60$@spro.net> Message-ID: <00b901cd0dc4$5ae439f0$10acadd0$@spro.net> Hi Frantz, It's a Pew product. I only got a hyperlinked phrase, as I posted. Suggest searching for Pew religion distribution map --interactive. See if that gets you a real link. Joanna --------------------------------------------------- Dear Joanna, The link? At the AAR in San Francisco, last November, there was a great provisional report by J. Gordon Melton on Buddhist demographics in the United States as reflected in the 2010 census. I wonder if this graph comes from that data. Franz _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Thu Mar 29 10:07:40 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:07:40 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pew religion dist. map Message-ID: <00c401cd0dc6$11989370$34c9ba50$@spro.net> From jkirk at spro.net Thu Mar 29 10:09:25 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:09:25 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pew religion dist. map Message-ID: <00c901cd0dc6$508101d0$f1830570$@spro.net> Seems that the plain text used by this list erases hyperlinks. If anyone wants it, I know Frantz does, please ask me and I'll send it. From: Jo [mailto:jkirk at spro.net] Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 10:08 AM To: Buddha-L Subject: Pew religion dist. map From jkirk at spro.net Thu Mar 29 11:37:48 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:37:48 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pew religion dist. map In-Reply-To: <00c401cd0dc6$11989370$34c9ba50$@spro.net> References: <00c401cd0dc6$11989370$34c9ba50$@spro.net> Message-ID: <000501cd0dd2$a90bd2b0$fb237810$@spro.net> This was a surprise--seems some computer automatically supplied the actual link. All I sent was the hyperlink Thanks to the digital spirits I guess. Joanna. ------------------------------ Sorry all, sent originally minus hyperlink: Religion Distribution Map - Interactive http://www.usatoday.com/news/graphics/pew-religion-08/flash.htm _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From buddhaworld at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 11:45:39 2012 From: buddhaworld at gmail.com (Scott A. Mitchell) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:45:39 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] iNTERESTING US MAP GRAPHIC SHOWING %AGE OF THE VARIOUS RELIGIONS In-Reply-To: <00b901cd0dc4$5ae439f0$10acadd0$@spro.net> References: <002a01cd0d66$81c6ff20$8554fd60$@spro.net> <00b901cd0dc4$5ae439f0$10acadd0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <41CF8A46-7CB7-4C00-B53F-C62C2EB5CB9B@gmail.com> Hi all, I hate to be persnickety (who am I kidding? I love being persnickety!) but while this map is super fun to play with, it should be noted that the data underlying the map are flawed, especially when it comes to U.S. Buddhism. The flaws of the Pew Report on Religious Life as regards Buddhists are three-fold: (1) the survey did not include Hawai'i which has a disproportionate number Buddhists (2) the survey was only conducted in English and Spanish thus potentially missing a large number of Asian-American Buddhists who may not be fluent in those languages and (3) the survey was conducted via landline telephones potentially missing younger Buddhists who (ironically, also according to Pew) are using landlines less and less These flaws are alluded to in Shannon Hickey's piece in the 2010 issue of the Journal of Global Buddhism, and were discussed at some length over on that other Buddhist email list (H-net) back when the survey was first published. But to my knowledge no one's really taken the survey to task. I would add that there's also an inherent bias in the survey in regards to categories of religious identification in such a way that obscures folks who have some relationship to Buddhism, have influenced by it, or hold "dual identity." But that's another rant for another day. At any rate, long story short, I'd hazard a guess that (a) there are more Buddhists (or Buddhist-affiliated types) in the U.S. than 1% and that (b) there are more along the Eastern seaboard, as Joanna suspects. I missed J. Gordon Melton's presentation at the AAR that Franz refers to. Perhaps he can summarize? Were there differences between what Melton reported and what we get from the Pew Report? Would be interesting to know. Scott ____________________________________ Scott A. Mitchell Core Faculty, Institute of Buddhist Studies at the Graduate Theological Union Editorial Committee, Pacific World BIE Program Coordinator On Mar 29, 2012, at 8:55 AM, Jo wrote: > Hi Frantz, > > It's a Pew product. I only got a hyperlinked phrase, as I posted. > Suggest searching for Pew religion distribution map --interactive. See if > that gets you a real link. > > Joanna > --------------------------------------------------- > Dear Joanna, > > The link? > > At the AAR in San Francisco, last November, there was a great provisional > report by J. Gordon Melton on Buddhist demographics in the United States as > reflected in the 2010 census. I wonder if this graph comes from that data. > > Franz > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From dharmahouse at bresnan.net Thu Mar 29 10:19:48 2012 From: dharmahouse at bresnan.net (David Curtis) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:19:48 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pew religion dist. map In-Reply-To: <00c401cd0dc6$11989370$34c9ba50$@spro.net> References: <00c401cd0dc6$11989370$34c9ba50$@spro.net> Message-ID: <0EF0C4BF-67A4-42A4-BA98-D7217AEBACB7@bresnan.net> US Topography of religion. > > > > > Religion Distribution Map - Interactive > > > > > From bshmr at aol.com Thu Mar 29 12:19:09 2012 From: bshmr at aol.com (Richard Basham) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:19:09 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pew religion dist. map In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1333045149.28259.5.camel@aims110> Jo, Well, I will have to switch PCs -- to the ONE with Adobe Flash (loaded and enabled) that might not ROTFLIAO at a USAToday link. Anyone check for a Pew report page (link)? Richard Basham From jkirk at spro.net Thu Mar 29 12:55:00 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:55:00 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] iNTERESTING US MAP GRAPHIC SHOWING %AGE OF THE VARIOUS RELIGIONS In-Reply-To: <41CF8A46-7CB7-4C00-B53F-C62C2EB5CB9B@gmail.com> References: <002a01cd0d66$81c6ff20$8554fd60$@spro.net> <00b901cd0dc4$5ae439f0$10acadd0$@spro.net> <41CF8A46-7CB7-4C00-B53F-C62C2EB5CB9B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001901cd0ddd$71f46cf0$55dd46d0$@spro.net> Thanks Scott. Yes, I am fairly aware of Pew's flaws. This product is only approximately useful, I'd guess. Should read Hickey's article. Would the flaws that you mention also be applicable, perhaps, to reporting of the various Christian groups? If so, then perhaps all are underreported so far as youth response goes. Also, they do have an Other Faiths category, but what goes into it is unknown to me: indigenous religions such as Navajo, or the peyote religion? Surveys of this sort cannot deal with dual identities--each category is either/or. Joanna ----------------------------------------------------- On Behalf Of Scott A. Mitchell Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 11:46 AM Hi all, I hate to be persnickety (who am I kidding? I love being persnickety!) but while this map is super fun to play with, it should be noted that the data underlying the map are flawed, especially when it comes to U.S. Buddhism. The flaws of the Pew Report on Religious Life as regards Buddhists are three-fold: (1) the survey did not include Hawai'i which has a disproportionate number Buddhists (2) the survey was only conducted in English and Spanish thus potentially missing a large number of Asian-American Buddhists who may not be fluent in those languages and (3) the survey was conducted via landline telephones potentially missing younger Buddhists who (ironically, also according to Pew) are using landlines less and less These flaws are alluded to in Shannon Hickey's piece in the 2010 issue of the Journal of Global Buddhism, and were discussed at some length over on that other Buddhist email list (H-net) back when the survey was first published. But to my knowledge no one's really taken the survey to task. I would add that there's also an inherent bias in the survey in regards to categories of religious identification in such a way that obscures folks who have some relationship to Buddhism, have influenced by it, or hold "dual identity." But that's another rant for another day. At any rate, long story short, I'd hazard a guess that (a) there are more Buddhists (or Buddhist-affiliated types) in the U.S. than 1% and that (b) there are more along the Eastern seaboard, as Joanna suspects. I missed J. Gordon Melton's presentation at the AAR that Franz refers to. Perhaps he can summarize? Were there differences between what Melton reported and what we get from the Pew Report? Would be interesting to know. Scott ____________________________________ Scott A. Mitchell Core Faculty, Institute of Buddhist Studies at the Graduate Theological Union Editorial Committee, Pacific World BIE Program Coordinator From jkirk at spro.net Thu Mar 29 12:56:10 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:56:10 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pew religion dist. map In-Reply-To: <1333045149.28259.5.camel@aims110> References: <1333045149.28259.5.camel@aims110> Message-ID: <001a01cd0ddd$9bf74720$d3e5d560$@spro.net> ROTFLIAO---what? ---------------------------------------- On Behalf Of Richard Basham Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 12:19 PM Jo, Well, I will have to switch PCs -- to the ONE with Adobe Flash (loaded and enabled) that might not ROTFLIAO at a USAToday link. Anyone check for a Pew report page (link)? Richard Basham _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From chris.fynn at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 23:29:19 2012 From: chris.fynn at gmail.com (Christopher Fynn) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:29:19 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] iNTERESTING US MAP GRAPHIC SHOWING %AGE OF THE VARIOUS RELIGIONS In-Reply-To: <001901cd0ddd$71f46cf0$55dd46d0$@spro.net> References: <002a01cd0d66$81c6ff20$8554fd60$@spro.net> <00b901cd0dc4$5ae439f0$10acadd0$@spro.net> <41CF8A46-7CB7-4C00-B53F-C62C2EB5CB9B@gmail.com> <001901cd0ddd$71f46cf0$55dd46d0$@spro.net> Message-ID: As well as the flaws already pointed out, I suspect that that statistics for any religion in this survey that falls below 5% are prone to be inaccurate simply because the samples are too low From chris.fynn at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 23:40:25 2012 From: chris.fynn at gmail.com (Christopher Fynn) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:40:25 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pew religion dist. map In-Reply-To: <001a01cd0ddd$9bf74720$d3e5d560$@spro.net> References: <1333045149.28259.5.camel@aims110> <001a01cd0ddd$9bf74720$d3e5d560$@spro.net> Message-ID: Now if all the Buddhists in the US moved to New Mexico what would the percentage there be? From mb.schiekel at arcor.de Fri Mar 30 04:16:12 2012 From: mb.schiekel at arcor.de (M.B. Schiekel) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 12:16:12 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Ven. Tenga Rinpoche passed away Message-ID: <4F7587EC.5010109@arcor.de> Dear list-members, after long and severe illness Ven. Kyabje Tenga Rinpoche passed away (*1932, + Mar.30, 2012). See: http://www.benchen.org/en/tenga-rinpoche/news/231-the-passing-of-tenga-rinpoche.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenga_Rinpoche . Tenga Rinpoche was a very traditional Tibetan teacher of the Karma-Kagyu school with an encyclopaedic knowledge of Tibetan traditions - but at the same time a very warmhearted and gentle person. May all beings be happy! bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-2.0.12 From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Mar 30 06:48:41 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 06:48:41 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pew religion dist. map In-Reply-To: References: <1333045149.28259.5.camel@aims110> <001a01cd0ddd$9bf74720$d3e5d560$@spro.net> Message-ID: <6F15116F-9618-40ED-9223-D74D3A092D71@unm.edu> On Mar 29, 2012, at 11:40 PM, Christopher Fynn wrote: > Now if all the Buddhists in the US moved to New Mexico what would the > percentage there be? Well over 100%. Ever since Robert Redford made "The Milagro Beanfield Wars" in Truchas, New Mexico, Hollywood folks have been migrating in droves to postcard towns like Santa Fe and Taos and Abiquiu. This has had the effect of driving real estate prices and property taxes in those towns much higher than anyone on a New Mexican salary can afford. And, since all Hollywood folks labor under the delusion that they're world-renouncing Buddhists, the population of self-proclaimed Buddhists in New Mexico has also ballooned. If all the Buddhists with cocaine habits and four Mercedes in their quaint gravel driveways were subtracted out, the Buddhist population in New Mexico would be somewhere between twelve and fourteen (depending on whether you counted on a day when Jim Peavler and I were feeling in a Buddhist mood). Richard Hayes From bshmr at aol.com Fri Mar 30 08:49:30 2012 From: bshmr at aol.com (Richard Basham) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:49:30 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pew religion dist. map In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1333118970.4120.7.camel@aims110> Jo, Chris, and others, >>{bshmr}: Well, I will have to switch PCs -- to the ONE with Adobe Flash (loaded and enabled) that might not ROTFLIAO at a USAToday link. >> >{jkirk}: ROTFLIAO---what? > A third-person varinat of the classic first-person ROTFLMAO, see http://acronymfinder.com (home) or specifically http://www.acronymfinder.com/ROTFLMAO.html >{chris.fynn}: As well as the flaws already pointed out, I suspect that that statistics for any religion in this survey that falls below 5% are prone to be inaccurate simply because the samples are too low > That doesn't look correct to me. I recall something about extreme (small or large) proportions having less variance expected; thus, after achieving an adequate sampling size, are considered relatively accurate/valid on smaller samples while the maximumally variant proportion of 50% requires a larger sample for the same confidence limits. Other Than That (OTT), I appreciate background info on the Pew reports biases/methodology. Richard Basham From jkirk at spro.net Fri Mar 30 10:34:39 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:34:39 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] iNTERESTING US MAP GRAPHIC SHOWING %AGE OF THE VARIOUS RELIGIONS Message-ID: <009101cd0e93$0115a6f0$0340f4d0$@spro.net> Agreed. Also, it would take more time (than I want to spend) finding out how they do their phone sampling. These days more adults, leave aside youths who've already been noted, use cell phones instead of landlines. Joanna On Behalf Of Christopher Fynn Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 11:29 PM As well as the flaws already pointed out, I suspect that that statistics for any religion in this survey that falls below 5% are prone to be inaccurate simply because the samples are too low. From franz at mind2mind.net Fri Mar 30 11:18:48 2012 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:18:48 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] iNTERESTING US MAP GRAPHIC SHOWING %AGE OF THE VARIOUS RELIGIONS In-Reply-To: <41CF8A46-7CB7-4C00-B53F-C62C2EB5CB9B@gmail.com> References: <002a01cd0d66$81c6ff20$8554fd60$@spro.net> <00b901cd0dc4$5ae439f0$10acadd0$@spro.net> <41CF8A46-7CB7-4C00-B53F-C62C2EB5CB9B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0DCE733D-48B4-4CAA-95D4-6D454D065217@mind2mind.net> Dear Scott et al., Thanks for the persnickety post. You've prompted me to find and review my notes from Melton's AAR session. Here's the upshot: 1) Polling suggests roughly 1.5 million Buddhists in the USA, a fraction of the previous estimated 3.5-4 million. Census data (for reasons Scott mentions) may supplant the polling estimates with actual data supporting the higher figures. 2) Despite potentially higher numbers of cultural Buddhists, going through temple/center/group data from some 200 denominations, Melton et al. estimate 970,000 officially Buddhist-affiliated Americans. Of course those with Buddhist influences and no cards to carry (folks Scott may describe in a later rant) may be missed in this estimate. 3) If we find the estimate low, consider that many--for some cultures even most--Asian immigrants were not, or are no longer, Buddhist. At this point only 20% of Chinese Americans report as Buddhist. 20%! 4) 90% of Buddhists in the USA live with 50 miles of an international airport. Two-thirds of American counties have no Buddhists groups within them. Buddhist groups tend to be in suburbs (cities are too expensives, rural areas have no Buddhists). One interesting aspect of this lack of diaspora is that Vietnamese who immigrated after the war, were forced by law to reside in every state of the union, in numbers proportionate to the state's population. Many have rescued themselves from those backwaters (note: this is me talking, not Melton), but if you take the Vietnamese Buddhists out of the equation, the already vast blank areas of the US without Buddhists grow much larger. I find this all quite depressing but shoulder on, recalling that Buddhism, itself, is subject to anicca. On the other hand, if American Buddhism leads to such products as Genpo Roshi, who needs it? Franz From jkirk at spro.net Fri Mar 30 12:04:02 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 12:04:02 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] iNTERESTING US MAP GRAPHIC SHOWING %AGE OF THE VARIOUS RELIGIONS Message-ID: <010701cd0e9f$7d806d90$788148b0$@spro.net> Hi Frantz, Not to be persnickety, but as you wrote 'shoulder on', I think the usual phrase is 'soldier on' :). Thanks for these notes from the AAR session. Most interesting. About the Vietnamese residing here: many of them have left Buddhism and joined up with various mass-pop Christian denominations; many of them have been Roman Catholics for generations, from the French colonial era; and a small % of them belong to the CaoDai religious enterprise and have built a temple in Orange County to serve their needs. It seems from what I've come across lately that Buddhism has been on the decline in Vietnam, itself, for decades if not for longer. (I'd need to do a lot of checking to be more specific about the last assertion.) Joanna -------------------------------- On Behalf Of Franz Metcalf Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 11:19 AM Dear Scott et al., Thanks for the persnickety post. You've prompted me to find and review my notes from Melton's AAR session. Here's the upshot: 1) Polling suggests roughly 1.5 million Buddhists in the USA, a fraction of the previous estimated 3.5-4 million. Census data (for reasons Scott mentions) may supplant the polling estimates with actual data supporting the higher figures. 2) Despite potentially higher numbers of cultural Buddhists, going through temple/center/group data from some 200 denominations, Melton et al. estimate 970,000 officially Buddhist-affiliated Americans. Of course those with Buddhist influences and no cards to carry (folks Scott may describe in a later rant) may be missed in this estimate. 3) If we find the estimate low, consider that many--for some cultures even most--Asian immigrants were not, or are no longer, Buddhist. At this point only 20% of Chinese Americans report as Buddhist. 20%! 4) 90% of Buddhists in the USA live with 50 miles of an international airport. Two-thirds of American counties have no Buddhists groups within them. Buddhist groups tend to be in suburbs (cities are too expensives, rural areas have no Buddhists). One interesting aspect of this lack of diaspora is that Vietnamese who immigrated after the war, were forced by law to reside in every state of the union, in numbers proportionate to the state's population. Many have rescued themselves from those backwaters (note: this is me talking, not Melton), but if you take the Vietnamese Buddhists out of the equation, the already vast blank areas of the US without Buddhists grow much larger. I find this all quite depressing but shoulder on, recalling that Buddhism, itself, is subject to anicca. On the other hand, if American Buddhism leads to such products as Genpo Roshi, who needs it? Franz _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From buddhaworld at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 12:57:07 2012 From: buddhaworld at gmail.com (Scott A. Mitchell) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:57:07 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] iNTERESTING US MAP GRAPHIC SHOWING %AGE OF THE VARIOUS RELIGIONS In-Reply-To: <0DCE733D-48B4-4CAA-95D4-6D454D065217@mind2mind.net> References: <002a01cd0d66$81c6ff20$8554fd60$@spro.net> <00b901cd0dc4$5ae439f0$10acadd0$@spro.net> <41CF8A46-7CB7-4C00-B53F-C62C2EB5CB9B@gmail.com> <0DCE733D-48B4-4CAA-95D4-6D454D065217@mind2mind.net> Message-ID: <1A760DE2-EA1D-436B-8B26-B2F3BB4AC0A5@gmail.com> Well, who am I to deny Franz a rant. I don't want to rehash the whole "who should 'count' as a Buddhist" debate that's cropped on on buddha-l from time to time. Frankly, I've always been of the opinion that if someone claims to be a Buddhist -- even if I think their understanding of Buddhism is wildly divergent from some made-up standard of what "real" Buddhism is -- I'd like to take them at their word. Now, that's a personal preference and, I'll be the first to admit, not particularly useful when doing academic/sociological research. And to me that's the real issue. That is, underlying the debate of how to do the counting is the deeper issue of the inherent biases in our categories and methodologies. Examining those things can be revelatory. Which brings me to what I really wanted to say which is this: the Pew report (as all surveys do) begins with a certain assumption about religious identification and affiliation. It asks people which religion they belong to. The very nature of this question is rooted in a particular (Anglo-American) way of conceptualizing religions which may not account for all persons who either (a) may be influenced by Buddhism in all sorts of both subtle and overt ways or (b) hold some sort of dual or multi- or nuanced identity regarding their religious/spiritual/ethnic/cultural selves. In terms of (b), I think there's plenty evidence that people both in Asia and "the West" actually do have more complex and nuanced ideas of the (non-Buddhist) self that rigid either/or categories are blind to, and these complexities and nuances are really interesting and worth talking about. In terms of (a) I'm thinking both persons of Asian heritage who may participate in Buddhist-derived services or rituals or whose world-views or values or ethics may have been informed by Buddhism, regardless of how much they "identify" as Buddhist for the purposes of some silly academic survey. But I'm also thinking of the ways in which Buddhism has permeated the culture at large and what the effects of that might be. It's that last point that I think is really interesting. How has US mainstream culture been impacted by non-Anglo or non-European ideas? I was told this morning that on last night's episode of the TV show 30 Rock, the main character Liz Lemon takes up meditation. I haven't seen the episode yet, so I have no idea if her meditation practice is explicitly referred to as Buddhist or what, but I always think it's interesting when such ideas pop-up in mainstream culture. How are they treated? Do they have any obvious referent to a real-world Buddhist practice or community? What do these instances of pop-cultural "Buddhism" or Asian-influenced spirituality tell us about US culture more broadly? What's the reverse effect? i.e., do these instances of pop-cultural "Buddhism" set up expectations (either positive or negative) in the minds of potential converts to the tradition? and so. There's a lot there, and it would be worth it, in my view, to explore those questions, to take them seriously. If we dig our heels in and remain attached to rigid categories of who is and who isn't a Buddhist -- well, I can see the appeal of that from a purely intellectual point of view. It can be fun to debate and argue with people on the Internet. But it seems to me that it also misses this whole other world of how Buddhist ideas (and I'd argue culture more broadly) don't give a hoot about our abstract conceptualization and instead flow about from place to place and community to community. It might bother the purists among us that some folks "aren't practicing the right dharma" or, as Franz worries, that we'll have nothing but tricksters and shysters out there. And that's an important conversation to have -- especially if you're in a position of leadership within a Buddhist community. Defining what is and is not "really" Buddhism in that context is deadly important work. But, as far as I'm concerned, that's not my job (lucky for me), so I'll leave it to other folks. Long story short, if we just look at the raw numbers, the number of self-identified Buddhists may be increasing or decreasing or shifting about the country. But numbers by themselves tell us very little. And real-world Buddhists do not existed in isolation. They live in a world of complex cultural influences both Buddhist and non-Buddhist. Contextualizing these issues can be more fruitful than merely looking at the numbers. Anyway. That's my two-cents. Have a good weekend everyone! Scott On Mar 30, 2012, at 10:18 AM, Franz Metcalf wrote: > Dear Scott et al., > > Thanks for the persnickety post. You've prompted me to find and review my notes from Melton's AAR session. Here's the upshot: > > 1) Polling suggests roughly 1.5 million Buddhists in the USA, a fraction of the previous estimated 3.5-4 million. Census data (for reasons Scott mentions) may supplant the polling estimates with actual data supporting the higher figures. > > 2) Despite potentially higher numbers of cultural Buddhists, going through temple/center/group data from some 200 denominations, Melton et al. estimate 970,000 officially Buddhist-affiliated Americans. Of course those with Buddhist influences and no cards to carry (folks Scott may describe in a later rant) may be missed in this estimate. > > 3) If we find the estimate low, consider that many--for some cultures even most--Asian immigrants were not, or are no longer, Buddhist. At this point only 20% of Chinese Americans report as Buddhist. 20%! > > 4) 90% of Buddhists in the USA live with 50 miles of an international airport. Two-thirds of American counties have no Buddhists groups within them. Buddhist groups tend to be in suburbs (cities are too expensives, rural areas have no Buddhists). One interesting aspect of this lack of diaspora is that Vietnamese who immigrated after the war, were forced by law to reside in every state of the union, in numbers proportionate to the state's population. Many have rescued themselves from those backwaters (note: this is me talking, not Melton), but if you take the Vietnamese Buddhists out of the equation, the already vast blank areas of the US without Buddhists grow much larger. > > I find this all quite depressing but shoulder on, recalling that Buddhism, itself, is subject to anicca. On the other hand, if American Buddhism leads to such products as Genpo Roshi, who needs it? > > Franz > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Fri Mar 30 15:37:23 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:37:23 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] iNTERESTING US MAP GRAPHIC SHOWING %AGE OF THE VARIOUS RELIGIONS In-Reply-To: <1A760DE2-EA1D-436B-8B26-B2F3BB4AC0A5@gmail.com> References: <002a01cd0d66$81c6ff20$8554fd60$@spro.net> <00b901cd0dc4$5ae439f0$10acadd0$@spro.net> <41CF8A46-7CB7-4C00-B53F-C62C2EB5CB9B@gmail.com> <0DCE733D-48B4-4CAA-95D4-6D454D065217@mind2mind.net> <1A760DE2-EA1D-436B-8B26-B2F3BB4AC0A5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <019101cd0ebd$4be614b0$e3b23e10$@spro.net> To Scott's rant, I should have added when speaking of Vietnam that various agencies there, official and non-official, have tried doing religion surveys and found out the very difficulties you mention, leading to healthy skepticism among let's say the unofficial sector. However, scholarly literature plus journalism often states that Vietnamese observe various versions of Confucianism, Daoism, Chinese clan cults and varied deities, and Buddhism. Probably this sort of variability could be said for a lot of "new worlders", like us. Joanna Scott A. Mitchell Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:57 PM Well, who am I to deny Franz a rant. [.............]I think there's plenty evidence that people both in Asia and "the West" actually do have more complex and nuanced ideas of the (non-Buddhist) self that rigid either/or categories are blind to, and these complexities and nuances are really interesting and worth talking about. From jkirk at spro.net Fri Mar 30 16:13:13 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 16:13:13 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] self immolation and suppression In-Reply-To: <004301cd0cda$3fc0dba0$6602a8c0@Dan> References: <4F6C33A2.7090005@xs4all.nl> <004301cd0cda$3fc0dba0$6602a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <000d01cd0ec2$4d2f4440$e78dccc0$@spro.net> One of the comments is typically nasty/ugly. Amazing how fast they can get photos converted into banners and posters. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Dan Lusthaus Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 6:00 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] self immolation and suppression A shade more detail. http://is.gd/HRteG1 Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Fynn" > It seems these acts of self-immolation by Tibetans have now started > to spread to India: > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17534104 > > http://is.gd/Zt21vm _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Fri Mar 30 17:41:20 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 17:41:20 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] EARTH HOUR 2012 Message-ID: <001101cd0ece$9cada550$d608eff0$@spro.net> Dear all, Please show dharmic care for conservation of resources and love of our so far almost half-dead planet by observing Earth Hour tomorrow in the USA (might already have started somewhere?). Let's turn off our lights during Earth Hour. So much clutter on YouTube it's impossible for me to find a link for the earth views from outer space. Joanna __________________ Earth Hour 2012 will take place on March 31, 2012 from 8:30pm to 9:30pm. In February, Earth Hour launched its 2012 campaign, "I Will If You Will", with the intention of engaging its growing global community to go beyond the hour and coordinate their efforts publicly through Facebook, Twitter, Google+ and email. Using a dedicated YouTube platform, IWIYW asks Earth Hour's digital community to inspire people from all corners of the globe to take sustainability actions, and to share their commitment to the environment with their own social media networks. Executive Director and Co-Founder Andy Ridley said, "Earth Hour's challenge is no longer to connect people; the challenge is to offer a reason to connect. Any movement of change begins with symbolism - it's a needed step to prove enough people care about an issue. Earth Hour is past the beginning now, and lots of people are switching their lights off every year in March. We're now at the stage of taking it beyond the hour." Youtube, following the previous year's example, changed its logo and added a switch on/off feature near the title of each video, so that users can change the background color from white to black. Further proof of Earth Hour's change in direction came when it was announced its global headquarters was moving from Sydney to Singapore. A launch event took place at ION Orchard on February 20, where it was announced that the move was supported by Singapore's Economic Development Board (EDB). From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Mar 31 12:50:36 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:50:36 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pew religion dist. map In-Reply-To: <00c901cd0dc6$508101d0$f1830570$@spro.net> References: <00c901cd0dc6$508101d0$f1830570$@spro.net> Message-ID: On Mar 29, 2012, at 10:09 , Jo wrote: > Seems that the plain text used by this list erases hyperlinks. Not true. They come through fine on all the various ways I read entries on buddha-l. Richard Hayes From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Mar 31 12:56:30 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:56:30 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] iNTERESTING US MAP GRAPHIC SHOWING %AGE OF THE VARIOUS RELIGIONS In-Reply-To: <1A760DE2-EA1D-436B-8B26-B2F3BB4AC0A5@gmail.com> References: <002a01cd0d66$81c6ff20$8554fd60$@spro.net> <00b901cd0dc4$5ae439f0$10acadd0$@spro.net> <41CF8A46-7CB7-4C00-B53F-C62C2EB5CB9B@gmail.com> <0DCE733D-48B4-4CAA-95D4-6D454D065217@mind2mind.net> <1A760DE2-EA1D-436B-8B26-B2F3BB4AC0A5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C5C007F-2149-48A2-AF9E-7918E070E834@unm.edu> On Mar 30, 2012, at 12:57 , Scott A. Mitchell wrote: > Frankly, I've always been of the opinion that if someone claims to be a Buddhist -- even if I think their understanding of Buddhism is wildly divergent from some made-up standard of what "real" Buddhism is -- I'd like to take them at their word. With this I am in complete agreement and rejoice whenever I hear or read someone say it. > Now, that's a personal preference and, I'll be the first to admit, not particularly useful when doing academic/sociological research. Being a bit of an academic myself (although a very bad one), I feel I can say, with sincerity, "Fuck the academics." > Which brings me to what I really wanted to say which is this: the Pew report (as all surveys do) begins with a certain assumption about religious identification and affiliation. It asks people which religion they belong to. I don't think that question is a bad one, provided there is a box to tick beside the phrase "All of the above." Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico Albuquerque, NM 87131 From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Mar 31 12:59:24 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:59:24 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] EARTH HOUR 2012 In-Reply-To: <001101cd0ece$9cada550$d608eff0$@spro.net> References: <001101cd0ece$9cada550$d608eff0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <24A2FE35-6C09-48DE-B810-5F235B629865@unm.edu> On Mar 30, 2012, at 17:41 , Jo wrote: > Earth Hour 2012 will take place on March 31, 2012 from 8:30pm to 9:30pm. Wonderful! We can all sit around in the dark and have fantasies about doing something to reduce our carbon footprints. From sjziobro at cs.com Sat Mar 31 13:07:05 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:07:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] EARTH HOUR 2012 In-Reply-To: <24A2FE35-6C09-48DE-B810-5F235B629865@unm.edu> References: <001101cd0ece$9cada550$d608eff0$@spro.net> <24A2FE35-6C09-48DE-B810-5F235B629865@unm.edu> Message-ID: <8CEDD8898FC65FE-BB4-9BE7@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com> Yes, and do not overlook switching off all the power in the house by moving all the switches in the power box to their OFF position. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Hayes To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Sat, Mar 31, 2012 2:59 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] EARTH HOUR 2012 On Mar 30, 2012, at 17:41 , Jo wrote: > Earth Hour 2012 will take place on March 31, 2012 from 8:30pm to 9:30pm. Wonderful! We can all sit around in the dark and have fantasies about doing something to reduce our carbon footprints. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jehms at xs4all.nl Sat Mar 31 14:01:29 2012 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 22:01:29 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] EARTH HOUR 2012 In-Reply-To: <24A2FE35-6C09-48DE-B810-5F235B629865@unm.edu> References: <001101cd0ece$9cada550$d608eff0$@spro.net> <24A2FE35-6C09-48DE-B810-5F235B629865@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4F776299.50609@xs4all.nl> Op 31-03-12 20:59, Richard Hayes schreef: > On Mar 30, 2012, at 17:41 , Jo wrote: > >> Earth Hour 2012 will take place on March 31, 2012 from 8:30pm to 9:30pm. > Wonderful! We can all sit around in the dark and have fantasies about doing something to reduce our carbon footprints. > > I have been watching dance performances in blacklight on a square downtown. Quite cold it was. But I also ordered some solar panels. erik From jkirk at spro.net Sat Mar 31 14:12:18 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 14:12:18 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] EARTH HOUR 2012 In-Reply-To: <8CEDD8898FC65FE-BB4-9BE7@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com> References: <001101cd0ece$9cada550$d608eff0$@spro.net> <24A2FE35-6C09-48DE-B810-5F235B629865@unm.edu> <8CEDD8898FC65FE-BB4-9BE7@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <001201cd0f7a$9386e390$ba94aab0$@spro.net> Sarcasm? Nothing new here. However, the idea is to turn off the lights--not the entire juice box. It's a visual thing. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of sjziobro at cs.com Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 1:07 PM To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] EARTH HOUR 2012 Yes, and do not overlook switching off all the power in the house by moving all the switches in the power box to their OFF position. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Hayes To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Sat, Mar 31, 2012 2:59 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] EARTH HOUR 2012 On Mar 30, 2012, at 17:41 , Jo wrote: > Earth Hour 2012 will take place on March 31, 2012 from 8:30pm to 9:30pm. Wonderful! We can all sit around in the dark and have fantasies about doing something to reduce our carbon footprints. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Mar 31 15:02:52 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:02:52 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] EARTH HOUR 2012 In-Reply-To: <001201cd0f7a$9386e390$ba94aab0$@spro.net> References: <001101cd0ece$9cada550$d608eff0$@spro.net> <24A2FE35-6C09-48DE-B810-5F235B629865@unm.edu> <8CEDD8898FC65FE-BB4-9BE7@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com> <001201cd0f7a$9386e390$ba94aab0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <1E55CCF2-74D9-4DF4-BD57-7439F2E38B08@unm.edu> On Mar 31, 2012, at 14:12 , Jo wrote: > Sarcasm? Naivety needs a touch of sarcasm. It helps keep things in perspective. > However, the idea is to turn off the lights--not the entire juice box. It's > a visual thing. In my neighborhood, we can turn off all the lights in our house and still read very well by all the light that comes pouring in from the floodlights in neighbors' yards. On past Earth Hours we have taken a walk through the neighborhood and discovered that exactly two households in the square mile of our neighborhood association had turned off their lights. The other folks who did it were on vacation and evidently forgot to leave a light on for the burglars. Maybe we should move out of this predominately Democrat neighborhood, where all the Prii (is that the plural of Prius?) have "War is not the answer" and "Give Israel back to the Canaanites" bumper stickers and try to find a nice Republican neighborhood, where environmentally conscientious gentlefolk turn the lights off on the oil rigs in their back yards, so no one can read the "Global warming is a hoax" bumper stickers on their Hummers. The United States did not sign the Kyoto accords. Greenhouse gas emissions in the US rose by 7% from the time of the accords until the end of 2011. Canada signed the Kyoto accords. Greenhouse gas emissions in Canada rose by 17% during that same period. CBC radio recently ran a two-hour special dedicated to the proposition that solar astronomers say the sun is about to enter one of its periodic centurty-long cooling periods and that five years from now we'll all be grateful for all the greenhouse gases. Let's face it. We have finished off the planet. It's time to stop kidding ourselves with these wimpy Earth Hour beaux gestes and start planning the funeral. Richard Hayes From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Mar 31 15:21:02 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:21:02 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] EARTH HOUR 2012 In-Reply-To: <8CEDD8898FC65FE-BB4-9BE7@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com> References: <001101cd0ece$9cada550$d608eff0$@spro.net> <24A2FE35-6C09-48DE-B810-5F235B629865@unm.edu> <8CEDD8898FC65FE-BB4-9BE7@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2012, at 13:07 , SJZiobro at cs.com wrote: > Yes, and do not overlook switching off all the power in the house by moving all the switches in the power box to their OFF position. And if anyone tries to sneak a message onto buddha-l during Earth Hour, the list administrators will revoke his or her subscription until the sun explodes. From sjziobro at cs.com Sat Mar 31 15:35:36 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] EARTH HOUR 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <001101cd0ece$9cada550$d608eff0$@spro.net><24A2FE35-6C09-48DE-B810-5F235B629865@unm.edu><8CEDD8898FC65FE-BB4-9BE7@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CEDD9D57ECD504-BB4-A1FC@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com> Live long and prosper, Richard! This is a clever way of saying, "When irrevocable global warming will occur." Then, unlike now, it will not be a hoax. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Hayes To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:21 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] EARTH HOUR 2012 On Mar 31, 2012, at 13:07 , SJZiobro at cs.com wrote: > Yes, and do not overlook switching off all the power in the house by moving all the switches in the power box to their OFF position. And if anyone tries to sneak a message onto buddha-l during Earth Hour, the list administrators will revoke his or her subscription until the sun explodes. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Mar 31 16:59:02 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 16:59:02 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] EARTH HOUR 2012 In-Reply-To: <8CEDD9D57ECD504-BB4-A1FC@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com> References: <001101cd0ece$9cada550$d608eff0$@spro.net><24A2FE35-6C09-48DE-B810-5F235B629865@unm.edu><8CEDD8898FC65FE-BB4-9BE7@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com> <8CEDD9D57ECD504-BB4-A1FC@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <0676D85D-FB33-469E-8F99-DBCB5F0EAD52@unm.edu> On Mar 31, 2012, at 15:35 , SJZiobro at cs.com wrote: > Live long and prosper, Richard! This is a clever way of saying, "When irrevocable global warming will occur." Then, unlike now, it will not be a hoax. Do you have any idea of what the meaning of the word "hoax" is, Dr Ziobro? According to my dictionary, a hoax is a humorous deception. It's a form of amusement at someone else's expense. It's difficult to see how anyone could think that the hypothesis that the mean temperature of the planet is rising because of warmth trapped in the atmosphere by greenhouse gases resulting from the combustion of fossil fuels could be regarded as a joke. I doubt very much that the scientists who have conducted studies on this topic for the past thirty years are doing their work just to raise a giggle. An alternative sense of "hoax" is a malicious deception. Again, it is difficult to see how anyone could seriously believe that there is any malice involved in formulating their hypothesis. Whom could the thousands of scientists who have formulated the hypothesis possibly be hoping to harm? To say that the global warming hypothesis is, like any scientific hypothesis, possibly wrong in some of its details is an intelligent thing to say. To dismiss it as a hoax, as if it were a practical joke such as Piltdown Man, is, I'm afraid, a rather stupid thing to say. (I am reasonably confident you used the word in jest, Dr Ziobro, so I am not accusing you of saying something stupid. If you were not joking, then I take it back; you were saying something stupid after all.) There is an interesting book recently published by Clifford Bob entitled "The Global Right Wing and the Clash of World Politics." Bob's thesis is the so-called "left-wing" enterprises such as NGOs and lobby groups have been somewhat over-studied in the social scientific literature, and that much less attention has been paid to international efforts to promote causes associated with what some people call "right wing". (I myself find the concepts "left" and "right" completely useless unless one is talking about the arm that a baseball pitcher throws with, but I use those terms because Bob does.) Not surprisingly, Bob shows that the tactics used by all special-interest groups are pretty much the same. They consist of misrepresentation, oversimplification, vilification, character assassination, the use of emotionally charged language (such as the word "hoax"), and distraction. That is only a partial catalogue of the devices used in political discourse these days, and Bob observes (accurately, I think) that no side has a monopoly on the use of these diversionary tactics. What is perhaps alarming is that it is becoming more and more difficult to find anyone anywhere who doesn't use these tactics and who instead looks carefully and dispassionately at evidence. The particular "right-wing" causes that Clifford Bob chronicles in his study are the carefully orchestrated international campaign to prevent (or eliminate) gun control (even in such gun-shy nations as my beloved Canada!) and the equally orchestrated international campaign to criminalize same-sex partnerships (and no, I don't mean the biggest same-sex partnership of all, the Vatican). It makes for pretty sobering reading, wherever one places oneself along the political spectrum. (It's not just the issues he chronicles, but the methods that political advocacy takes all along the spectrum, including the middle, that takes one's breath away.) If you've ever had a soft spot in your heart for reason, this book will give you plenty of good reasons to despair. Another very sobering read is Chris Hedge's recent book "Empire of Illusion: The end of literacy and the triumph of spectacle," which takes up where Neal Postman's "Amusing Ourselves to Death" left off (which in turn takes up where Huxley's "Brave New World" left off). If you have ever been in a classroom full of students who can't write anything longer than a text message and can talk for hours at a time about every detail of "The World of Warlock: The Wrath of the Lich King" but couldn't find the planet earth on a globe, Hedge's book may offer some insight into how we have gotten where we are?and where we may be heading. One detail that caught by attention in an early chapter: Google reports that fully 25% of all Google searches are for pornographic sites. (Fortunately for buddha-l readers, the other 75% are for Sanskrit words used by Buddhist philosophers.) Richard Hayes From jkirk at spro.net Sat Mar 31 22:29:38 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 22:29:38 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Earth hour around the globe-- a few photos Message-ID: <001801cd0fc0$0d8bdde0$28a399a0$@spro.net> Sri Lanka: http://www.earthhour.lk/gallery.html China: http://tinyurl.com/86teb6w Mumbai: http://tinyurl.com/75sddkk and Mumbai: http://tinyurl.com/72sryho Yogyakarta: http://tinyurl.com/7x9nlc2 Hanoi: http://tinyurl.com/7h6l2f6 Athens: http://tinyurl.com/7qysf6n Bangkok & Toronto here: http://tinyurl.com/77jmk5q From jkirk at spro.net Sat Mar 31 22:35:57 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 22:35:57 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another site with very good photos Message-ID: <001901cd0fc0$eefd2f40$ccf78dc0$@spro.net> http://www.ecorazzi.com/2012/03/31/11-amazing-earth-hour-moments/