From jkirk at spro.net Wed Feb 1 13:44:57 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 13:44:57 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: CONF Symposium: Gender, Sex, Pollution in Buddhist Discourse, Los Angeles, USC, February 3-4, 2012 Message-ID: <003701cce122$5c14b3a0$143e1ae0$@spro.net> X-posted from H-Asia. In case there is a length issue for this list, I have shortened it. CONF Symposium: Gender, Sex, Pollution in Buddhist Discourse ____________________________________________ To shorten the length, here are just two of the paper topics: "Sorrowful Coverings of Tainted Karma: Towards a History of Female Impurity in Early and Middle Period Indian Buddhism" By Amy Langenberg (Religious Studies, Auburn University) "The Debtors' Prison - The Daoist Construction of the Blood Lake Hell for Women" By Jessey Choo (History, University of Missouri, Kansas City) ----------------------- My Comment: Finally--research and reports on a topic long neglected and one that has bothered my sensibilities for some time: the _female blood libel_ (my construction) in east Asia, in Buddhism, but not at all limited to it. Buddhism absorbed folk ideas and practices about women's bleeding (menstruation and childbirth), adding them to Buddhist notions of spiritual/moral purity in the east Asian regions. A recent publication: _Escape from Blood Pond Hell: The Tales of Mulian and Woman Huang_ by Beata Grant and Wilt L. Idema (translators). Univ. of Washington Press, 2011. Check out the vernacular cover illustration (amazon.com.) of women in the blood pond hell. Blurb: These translations of The Precious Scroll of the Three Lives of Mulian and Woman Huang Recites the Diamond Sutra are late-nineteenth-century examples of baojuan (literally, "precious scrolls"), a Chinese folk genre featuring alternating verse and prose that was used by monks to illustrate religious precepts for lay listeners. They represent only two of numerous versions of these legends, composed in a variety of genres, which were once popular all over China. While the seeds of the Mulian legend, in which a man rescues his mother from hell, can be found in Indian Buddhist texts, the story of Woman Huang, who seeks her own salvation, appears to be indigenous to China. With their graphic portrayals of the underworld; dramatization of Buddhist beliefs about death, salvation, and rebirth; and frank discussion of women's responsibility for sin, these texts provide detailed and powerful descriptions of popular religious beliefs and practices in late imperial China, especially as they relate to women. Joanna K. From jkirk at spro.net Wed Feb 1 13:57:56 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 13:57:56 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] CONF Symposium: Gender, Sex, Pollution in Buddhist Discourse, Los Angeles, USC, February 3-4, 2012 Message-ID: <003801cce124$2c868f30$8593ad90$@spro.net> X-posted from H-Asia. In case there is a length issue for this list, I have shortened it. CONF Symposium: Gender, Sex, Pollution in Buddhist Discourse ____________________________________________ To shorten the length, here are just two of the paper topics: "Sorrowful Coverings of Tainted Karma: Towards a History of Female Impurity in Early and Middle Period Indian Buddhism" By Amy Langenberg (Religious Studies, Auburn University) "The Debtors' Prison - The Daoist Construction of the Blood Lake Hell for Women" By Jessey Choo (History, University of Missouri, Kansas City) ----------------------- My Comment: Finally--research and reports on a topic long neglected and one that has bothered my sensibilities for some time: the _female blood libel_ (my construction) in east Asia, in Buddhism, but not at all limited to it. Buddhism absorbed folk ideas and practices about women's bleeding (menstruation and childbirth), adding them to Buddhist notions of spiritual/moral purity in the east Asian regions. A recent publication: _Escape from Blood Pond Hell: The Tales of Mulian and Woman Huang_ by Beata Grant and Wilt L. Idema (translators). Univ. of Washington Press, 2011. Check out the vernacular cover illustration (amazon.com.) of women in the blood pond hell. Blurb: These translations of The Precious Scroll of the Three Lives of Mulian and Woman Huang Recites the Diamond Sutra are late-nineteenth-century examples of baojuan (literally, "precious scrolls"), a Chinese folk genre featuring alternating verse and prose that was used by monks to illustrate religious precepts for lay listeners. They represent only two of numerous versions of these legends, composed in a variety of genres, which were once popular all over China. While the seeds of the Mulian legend, in which a man rescues his mother from hell, can be found in Indian Buddhist texts, the story of Woman Huang, who seeks her own salvation, appears to be indigenous to China. With their graphic portrayals of the underworld; dramatization of Buddhist beliefs about death, salvation, and rebirth; and frank discussion of women's responsibility for sin, these texts provide detailed and powerful descriptions of popular religious beliefs and practices in late imperial China, especially as they relate to women. Joanna K. -------------------------------- More: http://www.printsofjapan.com/Kunisada_II_Courtesan_From_Hell.htm The most blatant case of Buddhism's relentless enforcement of the blood taboo is the propagation of the S?tra of the Blood Bowl (...Jap. Ketsubongy ? [???????]). The short apocryphal scripture of Chinese origins opens with the arhat Mulian... descending to hell in search of his mother. Upon discovering a blood pond full of drowning women, Mulian asks the hell warden why there is no man in this pond, and is told that this hell is reserved for women who have defiled the gods with their blood. Having found his mother, Mulian is unable to help her. In despair, he returns to the Buddha and asks him to save his mother. The Buddha then preaches the S?tra of the Blood Bowl. This scripture first explains the cause of women's ordeals: women who died in labor fall into a blood pool formed by the age-long accumulation of female menses, and are forced to drink that blood. This gruesome punishment is due to the fact that the blood was spilled at the time of parturition contaminated the ground and provoked the wrath of the earth god." [this is an excerpt] Quoted from: _The Power of Denial: Buddhism, Purity, and Gender_, by Bernard Faure, published by Princeton University Press, 2003, p. 73. (I don't have Faure's book.) From alex at chagchen.org Thu Feb 2 00:55:12 2012 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 08:55:12 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: CONF Symposium: Gender, Sex, Pollution in Buddhist Discourse, Los Angeles, USC, February 3-4, 2012 In-Reply-To: <003701cce122$5c14b3a0$143e1ae0$@spro.net> References: <003701cce122$5c14b3a0$143e1ae0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <000601cce180$0104b150$030e13f0$@org> Jo K wrote: > Finally--research and reports on a topic > long neglected and one that has bothered > my sensibilities for some time: the _female > blood libel_ (my construction) in east Asia > ... Call this a niggle, but amongst the superabundance of silly things for which Sarah Palin got into trouble was misuse of the term "blood libel". This is generally used to refer to a once widespread calumny of, usually, the Jews, to the effect that they murder children in order to make ritual use of their blood. Are you saying that buddhist texts or teachings levelled this accusation at women? I rather assume not, and in that case I'd urge you to choose a different phrase. Otherwise your quite probably valid arguments may be torn down for spurious reasons. In politics that's part of the territory, but in the search for truth - a very different field - it wouldn't be helpful. All the best Alex Wilding From mb.schiekel at arcor.de Thu Feb 2 07:08:25 2012 From: mb.schiekel at arcor.de (M.B. Schiekel) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 15:08:25 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] John McRae In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2A98D9.2050808@arcor.de> Am 24.10.2011 16:05, schrieb Richard Hayes: > ... I am very sad to report that John died this past weekend after a > 16-month battle with pancreatic cancer. He was surrounded by family > and friends in Bangkok in his last days and so died in an atmosphere > of love. All of us who were fortunate to know John will miss him. > ... Dear all, I?m looking for biographies of Yanagida Seizan and John McRae. Any hint is wellcome. Thank you very much. in metta, bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-2.0.12 From jkirk at spro.net Thu Feb 2 09:55:39 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 09:55:39 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: CONF Symposium: Gender, Sex, Pollution in Buddhist Discourse, Los Angeles, USC, February 3-4, 2012 Message-ID: <006701cce1cb$7e42cee0$7ac86ca0$@spro.net> On Behalf Of Alex Wilding Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 12:55 AM Angeles, USC, February 3-4, 2012 Jo K wrote: > Finally--research and reports on a topic long neglected and one that > has bothered my sensibilities for some time: the _female blood libel_ > (my construction) in east Asia ... Call this a niggle, but amongst the superabundance of silly things for which Sarah Palin got into trouble was misuse of the term "blood libel". This is generally used to refer to a once widespread calumny of, usually, the Jews, to the effect that they murder children in order to make ritual use of their blood. Are you saying that buddhist texts or teachings levelled this accusation at women? I rather assume not, and in that case I'd urge you to choose a different phrase. Otherwise your quite probably valid arguments may be torn down for spurious reasons. In politics that's part of the territory, but in the search for truth - a very different field - it wouldn't be helpful. All the best Alex Wilding __________________________ Alex, I'm surprised that you think citing something that Sarah Palin said is appropriate here. As for broadening the application of the term blood libel, which in my view perfectly suits this example, you apparently aren't aware that the women doomed to the blood pond in hell are women who died during childbirth. They are, in effect, being punished, as it were, for murdering infants (and their fertility). Thus, these women are socially (and spiritually) tainted by an essential guilt, just as the Jews were tainted in the spurious blood libel lore. This specious view of women under the cultural circumstances outlined in my post, I think, closely resembles --if it is not precisely identical to-- the older ethnic calumny of Europe. Spurious and destructive labeling is involved in both instances, child murder also--just as both instances of this had extremely negative social consequences. In addition, the very fact that women bled profusely during birth, even if they produced a live child, was taken to be a sign of their essential moral and spiritual impurity both in ancient China and in Japan, which received such ideas via Chinese agency. AW: " Are you saying that Buddhist texts or teachings levelled this accusation at women?" Yes, that is not only what I am saying, but it is what in effect was being done for several centuries of Buddhism in East Asia. The data are out there. Sorry, I don't have the time to gather them for you. If you research the "blood bowl sutra" (not only online), you will learn more about this calumny on women that became part of Buddhist teachings. You could start with the book I cited, _Escape from Blood Pond Hell: The Tales of Mulian and Woman Huang_ by Beata Grant and Wilt L. Idema (translators). Univ. of Washington Press, 2011. Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Thu Feb 2 10:18:42 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 10:18:42 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: CONF Symposium: Gender, Sex, Pollution in Buddhist Discourse, Los Angeles, USC, February 3-4, 2012 Message-ID: <006801cce1ce$b6fa20a0$24ee61e0$@spro.net> See, for a medieval Japanese scroll illustration of the blood pool hell: https://eee.uci.edu/clients/sbklein/images/GHOSTS/hungryghosts/pages/hellblo odpool.htm Images from the Ketsubonkyo Engi Emaki (Scroll Depicting the Origin of the Blood Pool Sutra) (The link underneath this title is down.) From jkirk at spro.net Thu Feb 2 10:32:00 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 10:32:00 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: CONF Symposium: Gender, Sex, Pollution in Buddhist Discourse, Los Angeles, USC, February 3-4, 2012 Message-ID: <007201cce1d0$92b319c0$b8194d40$@spro.net> Here's a summary of a podcast lecture by Lori Meeks: Making Sense of the Blood Bowl Sutra....[re Japan] http://www.blubrry.com/shinibs/1027902/making-sense-of-the-blood-bowl-sutra- gender-pollution-and-salvation-in-buddhist-sermons-from-early-modern-japan/ Sometime during the late fourteenth or early fifteenth century, several variants of an indigenous Chinese sutra known as the Xuepenjing (?Blood Bowl Sutra,? .......were transmitted to Japan. Emphasizing the impurity of women?s reproductive blood, this short scripture teaches that women are fated to fall into a special hell known as the ?Blood Pond Hell? (chi no ike jigoku) in retribution for the sin of polluting the earth with blood. By the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, temples throughout Japan actively promoted the cult of the Blood Bowl Hell as a method of saving women. In this cult, disgust for the female body, first emphasized in Buddhist texts as a means of encouraging celibate monks to remain distant from women, is directed no? to celibate monks, but to a new audience of lay men and women. My talk will explore two early modern commentaries on the text in an effort to understand how priests presented the teachings of the Blood Bowl Sutra to this audience. From kansei at shingonan.de Thu Feb 2 13:03:23 2012 From: kansei at shingonan.de (kansei) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:03:23 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Dhammasara Buddhist Nuns Monastery Australia Message-ID: <4F2AEC0B.20306@shingonan.de> Dear Listmembers, I would like to share a lovely short video documentary of the Dhammasara Buddhist Nuns Monastery in Australia. Enjoy! Best, Michael From kansei at shingonan.de Thu Feb 2 13:04:37 2012 From: kansei at shingonan.de (kansei) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:04:37 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Dhammasara Buddhist Nuns Monastery link Message-ID: <4F2AEC55.8000909@shingonan.de> and here is the link: http://video.buddhistdoor.com/movie/play_movie_view/1281 From alex at chagchen.org Fri Feb 3 04:21:33 2012 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:21:33 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: CONF Symposium: Gender, Sex, Pollution in Buddhist Discourse, Los Angeles, USC, February 3-4, 2012 In-Reply-To: <006701cce1cb$7e42cee0$7ac86ca0$@spro.net> References: <006701cce1cb$7e42cee0$7ac86ca0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <001101cce266$001af510$0050df30$@org> Hi Jo, > ... you apparently aren't aware that the women doomed > to the blood pond in hell are women who died during > childbirth. They are, in effect, being punished, > as it were, for murdering infants (and their fertility). No, I wasn't aware of that at all. I'd never heard of this before. How outlandish, and how unpleasant! And how do the proponents of this view square it with basic Buddhist principles such as motivation being a key factor karma? That's a rhetorical question, of course, but for anyone involved in that sort of Buddhism it would be serious. I see where you are coming from now. All the best Alex Wilding From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 09:14:17 2012 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 17:14:17 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Placenames in the Canon Message-ID: Dear list-members, I have some questions about placenames in the Pali Canon. Do they have a soteriological, symbolic, social function in the Suttas? Is there a connection between a place and the doctrinal content, for example, at place x, the Buddha only spoke about a, b and c, but not d to person i, j, but not k? Is it possible to establish a geographical trajectory of the Buddha based on the extent to which the doctrine was elaborated? Are they meant to create a historicity of that particular sutta? In short, what is their role? Thank you, Stefan Detrez - Antwerp, Belgium Humanist ethician From jkirk at spro.net Fri Feb 3 09:54:20 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 09:54:20 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: CONF Symposium: Gender, Sex, Pollution in Buddhist Discourse, Los Angeles, USC, February 3-4, 2012 Message-ID: <006401cce294$7995cf40$6cc16dc0$@spro.net> -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Alex Wilding Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 4:22 AM No, I wasn't aware of that at all. I'd never heard of this before. How outlandish, and how unpleasant! And how do the proponents of this view square it with basic Buddhist principles such as motivation being a key factor karma? That's a rhetorical question, of course, but for anyone involved in that sort of Buddhism it would be serious. I see where you are coming from now. All the best Alex Wilding Hi Alex--as we know, Buddhism isn't the same everywhere. All over the world its discourses and practices have taken on interpolations, additions, emendations-- to what "we" like to think was original Buddhism--from the various cultural contexts where it landed up. My purpose in posting about those ideas was gratitude that the crummy status of women in the culture of Buddhism, east Asian variety, seemingly underexposed (although not of course in older scholarly literature) was finally being re-researched. I have to admit also that I was affected by recent political moves in the US body politic (aside from recent execrable Republican rantings about contraception as abortion) once again to restore the low status of women by, for example, the Komen Foundation's defunding of Planned Parenthood. The public outcry to that move was so enormous that today the same foundation have retracted their decision and restored PP funding. Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Fri Feb 3 10:32:19 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 10:32:19 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Placenames in the Canon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008f01cce299$c8075860$58160920$@spro.net> They sure seem to, if you look at the murals in SE Asian pagodas and viharas. Doesn't the story of the Buddha's life lend itself to geographical iconicity? -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Stefan Detrez Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 9:14 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: [Buddha-l] Placenames in the Canon Dear list-members, I have some questions about placenames in the Pali Canon. Do they have a soteriological, symbolic, social function in the Suttas? Is there a connection between a place and the doctrinal content, for example, at place x, the Buddha only spoke about a, b and c, but not d to person i, j, but not k? Is it possible to establish a geographical trajectory of the Buddha based on the extent to which the doctrine was elaborated? Are they meant to create a historicity of that particular sutta? In short, what is their role? Thank you, Stefan Detrez - Antwerp, Belgium Humanist ethician _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From mb.schiekel at arcor.de Sat Feb 4 06:10:34 2012 From: mb.schiekel at arcor.de (M.B. Schiekel) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 14:10:34 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] the cost of knowledge Message-ID: <4F2D2E4A.9030505@arcor.de> Dear all, if you are publishing or refereeing in Elsevier-journals and don't like the Elsevier-rules, please have a look at: http://www.thecostofknowledge.com/ Academics have protested against Elsevier's business practices for years with little effect. These are some of their objections: They charge exorbitantly high prices for subscriptions to individual journals. In the light of these high prices, the only realistic option for many libraries is to agree to buy very large "bundles", which will include many journals that those libraries do not actually want. Elsevier thus makes huge profits by exploiting the fact that some of their journals are essential. They support measures such as SOPA, PIPA and the Research Works Act, that aim to restrict the free exchange of information. The key to all these issues is the right of authors to achieve easily-accessible distribution of their work. If you would like to declare publicly that you will not support any Elsevier journal unless they radically change how they operate, then you can do so by filling in your details in the box below. in metta, bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Feb 4 19:04:11 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 19:04:11 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Students as potential spooks? In-Reply-To: <8CEA7536EC5C8F7-828-16838@webmail-d049.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CEA7303DF0828D-828-1545C@webmail-d049.sysops.aol.com> <5C0C2585-C40E-4E09-92BD-DDCDC9DB24B9@unm.edu> <8CEA7536EC5C8F7-828-16838@webmail-d049.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Jan 22, 2012, at 12:30 , SJZiobro at cs.com wrote: > Do you know anybody from the intelligence community? I'm not sure whom you are asking. If you are asking me, and if your question is whether I personally know any CIA agents, my answer is in the affirmative. May I ask why you ask? Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy Humanities Bldg 525 Mobile: 414-8757 From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Feb 4 19:09:08 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 19:09:08 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] More on the biology of politics In-Reply-To: <000901ccda48$5855a4d0$0900ee70$@spro.net> References: <1327369976.20294.54.camel@aims110> <000901ccda48$5855a4d0$0900ee70$@spro.net> Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2012, at 20:29 , Jo wrote: > Joanna > (I don't see the need for full names and official affiliations on Buddha > hell--some of us have neither, anyway.) As I believe I have made quite clear, there is no such requirement on buddha-l. It is h-buddhism that has that requirement. I do think on any email discussion forum it is a courtesy to give both one's first and last name in signing a squib. Also in referring to others (especially to one of the many Richards who contribute to buddha-l), it is not a bad idea to say to which Richard one is referring. Richard Hayes From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Feb 4 19:19:08 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 19:19:08 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] ADMIN> Basic points for posting on, > H-Buddhism (Muller) In-Reply-To: <4F2049DC.1040107@gmail.com> References: <4F2049DC.1040107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <719B2995-8085-4ACD-8F80-3A9AF2E09AA9@unm.edu> On Jan 25, 2012, at 11:28 , Alberto Todeschini wrote: > I choose to receive Buddha-L's messages in digest > form and the few people who top post make reading an inconvenience. The most readable way of responding to a post is to delete everything except the passage to which one wishes to respond, and to place one's response immediately below each quoted passage. The maximally annoying and bandwidth-wasting way of responding is to quote a long message in its entirety and then to add a short response, such as "I agree." Having said that, I have experienced some web-based e-mail programs that do not have a convenient mechanism for deleting parts of a quote message. If one is going to respond at all, one must repost all or none of the message responded to. Whoever designs such mail programs should perhaps be given an extended vacation in Guant?namo Bay, given that they are listserv terrorists. Richard Hayes From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Feb 4 19:23:34 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 19:23:34 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Which Buddhists believe in rebirth? In-Reply-To: <4F244143.8080106@smith.edu> References: <4F244143.8080106@smith.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 28, 2012, at 11:41 , Jamie Hubbard wrote: > The term is "??", to > "become buddha" and the dead are commonly referred to hotoke ?, or > "buddha." When I practiced Zen, the name I was given was ??. I guess that means I was still alive back then. Richard Hayes From jkirk at spro.net Sat Feb 4 21:22:34 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 21:22:34 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] More on the biology of politics In-Reply-To: References: <1327369976.20294.54.camel@aims110> <000901ccda48$5855a4d0$0900ee70$@spro.net> Message-ID: <001e01cce3bd$c937c060$5ba74120$@spro.net> Coming from one who has proved to be eminently discourteous at times over the years, perhaps you need to go and lie down by the fireplace. Of course you may be on a mending your ways riff. Since you've not cited a prior reference to a 'Richard minus a surname', I'm unable to respond to that not bad idea. Looks like a usual problem in many an email notonly on this list, of posting without clueing readers what it's about or who said it. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 7:09 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] More on the biology of politics On Jan 23, 2012, at 20:29 , Jo wrote: > Joanna > (I don't see the need for full names and official affiliations on > Buddha hell--some of us have neither, anyway.) As I believe I have made quite clear, there is no such requirement on buddha-l. It is h-buddhism that has that requirement. I do think on any email discussion forum it is a courtesy to give both one's first and last name in signing a squib. Also in referring to others (especially to one of the many Richards who contribute to buddha-l), it is not a bad idea to say to which Richard one is referring. Richard Hayes _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Feb 5 07:39:52 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 07:39:52 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] More on the biology of politics In-Reply-To: <001e01cce3bd$c937c060$5ba74120$@spro.net> References: <1327369976.20294.54.camel@aims110> <000901ccda48$5855a4d0$0900ee70$@spro.net> <001e01cce3bd$c937c060$5ba74120$@spro.net> Message-ID: <3A6E103E-B23F-4C97-8A5F-79D4C93F1D7E@unm.edu> On Feb 4, 2012, at 9:22 PM, "Jo" wrote: > Coming from one who has proved to be eminently discourteous at times over the years, perhaps you need to go and lie down by the fireplace. It makes no difference at all where a statement comes from. The message itself is what should be heeded, not the messenger. The message was at most a simple request to sign messages to buddha-l with first and last name. And it's only a suggestion, not a commandmant. (Remember: I grew up in a Unitarian household in which we were taught that a Higher Power gave Moses the Ten Suggestions.) Here's exactly what was said: > I do think on any email discussion forum it is a courtesy to give both one's first and last name in signing a squib. Lying by a fireplace does sound appealing. Thanks to global warming, however, today would be a better day to lie by a swimming pool than by a fireplace. (Wherever I lie, you can rest assured I will not be watching any football games.) > Since you've not cited a prior reference to a 'Richard minus a surname', I'm unable to respond to that not bad idea. Someone complained a while back that some Richard had edited something out of her message, and that was followed by other comments by other folks about Richard's editing habits. I was unable to tell whether those remarks were about Richard Nance, Richard Basham or Richard Breedon. Given that Buddha-l messages are posted without being edited, it may have referred to no Richard at all. (The list where messages are edited before being posted is H-Buddhism, which rejects top-posted messages and messages that are not properly signed. They have standards over there.) Richard Hayes (Richard IV) Non-watcher of televised gladiatorial combat From sjziobro at cs.com Sun Feb 5 13:05:54 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 15:05:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Students as potential spooks? In-Reply-To: References: <8CEA7303DF0828D-828-1545C@webmail-d049.sysops.aol.com><5C0C2585-C40E-4E09-92BD-DDCDC9DB24B9@unm.edu><8CEA7536EC5C8F7-828-16838@webmail-d049.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CEB258B3898A10-95C-1B9BD@angweb-usm004.sysops.aol.com> I figured that if you knew anybody in the intelligence communities you'd at least have more to judge on than a priori notions that intelligence work is inherently evil. I doubt this response is anything unexpected. I htought one of your earlier responses was of real interest, Richard. You noted something to the effect that you considered working in the intelligence community a waste of talents. Stan -----Original Message----- From: Richard Hayes To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Sat, Feb 4, 2012 9:04 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Students as potential spooks? On Jan 22, 2012, at 12:30 , SJZiobro at cs.com wrote: > Do you know anybody from the intelligence community? I'm not sure whom you are asking. If you are asking me, and if your question is hether I personally know any CIA agents, my answer is in the affirmative. May I sk why you ask? Richard Hayes epartment of Philosophy umanities Bldg 525 obile: 414-8757 _______________________________________________ uddha-l mailing list uddha-l at mailman.swcp.com ttp://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From stefan.detrez at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 13:15:19 2012 From: stefan.detrez at gmail.com (Stefan Detrez) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 21:15:19 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Placenames in the Canon In-Reply-To: <008f01cce299$c8075860$58160920$@spro.net> References: <008f01cce299$c8075860$58160920$@spro.net> Message-ID: Hi Jo and the others, They sure seem to, if you look at the murals in SE Asian pagodas and > viharas. Doesn't the story of the Buddha's life lend itself to geographical > iconicity? > > It surely does. Finding out what the relations are between placenames and doctrine will surely lead to a diachronical understanding of the Dhamma, both with regard to social stratification and evolution. It seems there is still a lot of work to be done (similar work has been done with the Therigatas, if I remember well). Stefan From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Feb 5 15:36:42 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 15:36:42 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Students as potential spooks? In-Reply-To: <8CEB258B3898A10-95C-1B9BD@angweb-usm004.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CEA7303DF0828D-828-1545C@webmail-d049.sysops.aol.com> <5C0C2585-C40E-4E09-92BD-DDCDC9DB24B9@unm.edu> <8CEA7536EC5C8F7-828-16838@webmail-d049.sysops.aol.com> <8CEB258B3898A10-95C-1B9BD@angweb-usm004.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Feb 5, 2012, at 1:05 PM, sjziobro at cs.com wrote: > I figured that if you knew anybody in the intelligence communities you'd at least have more to judge on than a priori notions that intelligence work is inherently evil. As a rule, I am careful to make as few a priori claims as possible. In this specific case I have no notion (either a priori or a posteriori) that intelligence work is evil. I have no objection to the CIA recruiting on campus. What I found surprising is that there is now an academic program at my university in which one can major in such things, and especially that that academic program is seeking a formal relationship with religious studies. The rest of what I said was an obviously unsuccessful attempt at humor, for which I hereby offer my abject apology. Richard Hayes From sjziobro at cs.com Mon Feb 6 11:00:09 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 13:00:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Students as potential spooks? In-Reply-To: References: <8CEA7303DF0828D-828-1545C@webmail-d049.sysops.aol.com><5C0C2585-C40E-4E09-92BD-DDCDC9DB24B9@unm.edu><8CEA7536EC5C8F7-828-16838@webmail-d049.sysops.aol.com><8CEB258B3898A10-95C-1B9BD@angweb-usm004.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CEB3104BE6EEBE-1F80-274A@webmail-m083.sysops.aol.com> Richard, Thank you for your further clarification. It never occurred to me that, outside of West Point and the other military schools, there would be academic programs devoted to inquiry into intelligence matters. That said, it seems reasonable that the developers of such a program would seek a formal relationship with those involved in religious studies. Intelligence personnel need to know about many matters if they're to be successful in their field of endeavor. The CIA, for example, regularly assesses religious influence within any particular society or culture. But this relation does seem initially arresting. Can you conceive of any way this question might have some corrolary with the study of Buddhism? Kind regards, Stan -----Original Message----- From: Richard Hayes To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Sun, Feb 5, 2012 5:36 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Students as potential spooks? On Feb 5, 2012, at 1:05 PM, sjziobro at cs.com wrote: > I figured that if you knew anybody in the intelligence communities you'd at east have more to judge on than a priori notions that intelligence work is nherently evil. As a rule, I am careful to make as few a priori claims as possible. In this pecific case I have no notion (either a priori or a posteriori) that ntelligence work is evil. I have no objection to the CIA recruiting on campus. hat I found surprising is that there is now an academic program at my niversity in which one can major in such things, and especially that that cademic program is seeking a formal relationship with religious studies. The est of what I said was an obviously unsuccessful attempt at humor, for which I ereby offer my abject apology. Richard Hayes ______________________________________________ uddha-l mailing list uddha-l at mailman.swcp.com ttp://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From Kdorje at aol.com Mon Feb 6 19:27:53 2012 From: Kdorje at aol.com (Kdorje at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 21:27:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Students as potential spooks? Message-ID: Didn't the Department of Defense play a part in the establishment of the Buddhist studies program at U of Virginia? Or is my memory failing more rapidly than I thought? In a message dated 2/6/2012 1:00:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sjziobro at cs.com writes: Richard, Thank you for your further clarification. It never occurred to me that, outside of West Point and the other military schools, there would be academic programs devoted to inquiry into intelligence matters. That said, it seems reasonable that the developers of such a program would seek a formal relationship with those involved in religious studies. Intelligence personnel need to know about many matters if they're to be successful in their field of endeavor. The CIA, for example, regularly assesses religious influence within any particular society or culture. But this relation does seem initially arresting. Can you conceive of any way this question might have some corrolary with the study of Buddhism? Kind regards, Stan /buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Mon Feb 6 21:06:32 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 21:06:32 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: [INDOLOGY] New Book on Ashoka Message-ID: <004101cce54d$e102a070$a307e150$@spro.net> X-posted from Indology list. FYi to those interested in various issues related to Ashoka. Joanna K. From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Patrick Olivelle Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 8:21 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Book Dear All: Sorry for the cross-posting. The volume from the international conference on A?oka that we organized in Delhi in August 2009 has just been published by Oxford University Press and edited by me and Himanshu Prabha Ray and Janice Leoshko. Here is the URL: http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780198078005.do Table of Content: Preface Introduction by Patrick Olivelle, Janice Leoshko, and Himanshu Prabha Ray PROLEGOMENA 1: Asoka: A Retrospective by Romila Thapar 2: The Language of Composition and Transmission of the Asokan Inscriptions by R.K. Norman PART I: EMERGENCE OF ASOKAN STUDIES 3: Archaeology and Asoka: Defining the Empire by Himanshu Prabha Ray 4: From Kautilya to Kosambi and Beyond by Shailendra Bhandare 5: Bhagwanlal Indraj's Pioneering Contribution to Asokan Studies by Virchand Dharamsey PART II: ASOKA AND HIS TIMES 6: Asoka's Inscriptions as Text and Ideology by Patrick Olivelle 7: The Composition of Asoka's Pillar Edict Series by Herman Tieken 8: Linguistic Experiments: Language and Identity in Asokan Inscriptions and Early Buddhist Texts by Oskar von Hin?ber 9: The Fate of Asoka's Donations at Lumbini by Harry Falk 10: The Yona Era and the End of the Maurya Dynasty: Is There a Connection? by Richard Salomon 11: Mauryan Pillars of the Middle Ganga Plain in the Light of Archaeological Discoveries of Sarnath-Varanasi and Chunar by Vidhula Jayaswal 12: Environmental Change in North Bengal: An Opportunity for the Mauryas by Jean-Fran?ois Salles 13: Is the Arthasastra a Mauryan Document? by Mark McClish 14: Asoka the Greek, Converted and Translated by Grant Parker PART III: ASOKA REIMAGINED 15: Asoka and Museums by Janice Leoshko 16: The Commingling of Gods and Human, the Unveiling of the World, and the Descent from Trayastrimsa Heaven: An Exegetical Exploration of the Connections of Minor Rock Edict I to Buddhist Legendary Literature by John Strong 17: Asoka: Model Ruler without Name? Literature of Sri Lanka and Southeast Asia by Max Deeg 18: On the Asoka-type Buddha Images Found in China by Chongfeng Li 19: Asoka: Historical Discourse and the Post-colonial Indian State by Bhagavan Josh Thanks. Patrick Olivelle From sjziobro at cs.com Tue Feb 7 18:04:12 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 20:04:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Students as potential spooks? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CEB414B4270A70-1F4C-5C47@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> This is my understanding, and, along with you, I wonder if my memory is either failing somewhat. Stan -----Original Message----- From: Kdorje To: buddha-l Sent: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 9:28 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Students as potential spooks? Didn't the Department of Defense play a part in the establishment of the Buddhist studies program at U of Virginia? Or is my memory failing more rapidly than I thought? In a message dated 2/6/2012 1:00:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sjziobro at cs.com writes: Richard, Thank you for your further clarification. It never occurred to me that, outside of West Point and the other military schools, there would be academic programs devoted to inquiry into intelligence matters. That said, it seems reasonable that the developers of such a program would seek a formal relationship with those involved in religious studies. Intelligence personnel need to know about many matters if they're to be successful in their field of endeavor. The CIA, for example, regularly assesses religious influence within any particular society or culture. But this relation does seem initially arresting. Can you conceive of any way this question might have some corrolary with the study of Buddhism? Kind regards, Stan /buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Feb 7 21:21:02 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 21:21:02 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Students as potential spooks? In-Reply-To: <8CEB414B4270A70-1F4C-5C47@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CEB414B4270A70-1F4C-5C47@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Feb 7, 2012, at 6:04 PM, sjziobro at cs.com wrote: > Intelligence personnel > need to know about many matters if they're to be successful in their field > of endeavor. The CIA, for example, regularly assesses religious influence > within any particular society or culture. Unfortunately, whether one is talking about the academic world, the news media, or the CIA, most attempts to assess the religious influence on human behavior is embarrassingly simplistic. I have pretty much come to the view that there is no connection at all between human behavior and thought. So any study of theology or philosophy (both of which are thought-based) yields very close to zero basis on which to predict how people will act or to analyze how they have acted. Thinking is utterly irrelevant. There are two theories making the rounds that I find very exciting and that I am increasingly convinced may be true (whatever the he'll "true" means). The first theory is that there is no such thing as causality. Things just happen. One can gather statistics about events, but statistics have no connection with causality. The second theory is that there is no such thing as conscious decision making. Decisions arise in consciousness after processes of which no one is conscious have put the body in motion. Everything we call decision making is after-the-act rationalization. There being no conscious decisions, there is no free will and therefore no moral responsibility. Some of the conclusions I have been driven to consider as pretty likely to be the way things really are may be at odds with Buddhist dogma, which is itself part of the delusional sham that Buddhists pretend to want to eliminate. Just some thoughts. Now I'm going to bed. Goodnight, Richard Philip Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Feb 9 09:59:28 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 09:59:28 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] 2012 Summer Seminar On Buddhism Message-ID: <01437A65-3E54-4524-9EEC-464D261FA26E@unm.edu> Rinzai-ji Zen Center and the University of New Mexico are pleased to announce the 2012 Summer Seminar on Buddhism. The Summer Seminar, held in residence at Bodhi Manda Zen Center in the beautiful Jemez Mountains outside of Albuquerque, NM, combines the academic study of Buddhism with the experience of living and practicing in a Zen monastery. The dates of the Seminar this year are June 4-15. Featured speakers and topics: Lance Cousins, Oxford University: ?Buddhist Meditation, Old and New? Toru Funayama, Kyoto University: ?Kamala??la on the Bodhisattva Path, Meditation, and Yogic Perception? Morten Schl?tter, University of Iowa: ?The Platform Sutra and the Beginning of Ch?an? Kyozan Joshu Sasaki Roshi, Abbot of Rinzai-ji Zen Center, will give dharma talks, health permitting. Cost for both weeks of the seminar is $1250 or, in the case of students receiving credit, $1100. College credit (3 semester hours) is available through the University of New Mexico. Contact: John Taber, Department of Philosophy, University of New Mexico: jataber at unm.edu or Seiju Bob Mammoser, 505 268 4877 For more details visit http://www.summerseminar.org/ From sjziobro at cs.com Thu Feb 9 18:03:20 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 20:03:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Students as potential spooks? In-Reply-To: References: <8CEB414B4270A70-1F4C-5C47@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CEB5A6EA5C19CB-180C-A9CC@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Richard, If nothing is really true, or at least you have no idea what true means, nonetheless, on the basis of ignorance, 1) you're coming to judge that thought has no connection to action, 2) that to claim that there is a connection is simplistic (as if claiming that no action follows from any thought is a complex affair), and 3) there is no free will with its attending moral responsibility. OK. Then you can now vote Republican with impunity, since now you've no compelling reason(s) to do otherwise and because I've now told you to do so! Regards, Stan -----Original Message----- From: Richard Hayes To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Tue, Feb 7, 2012 11:20 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Students as potential spooks? On Feb 7, 2012, at 6:04 PM, sjziobro at cs.com wrote: > Intelligence personnel > need to know about many matters if they're to be successful in their field > of endeavor. The CIA, for example, regularly assesses religious influence > within any particular society or culture. Unfortunately, whether one is talking about the academic world, the news media, or the CIA, most attempts to assess the religious influence on human behavior is embarrassingly simplistic. I have pretty much come to the view that there is no connection at all between human behavior and thought. So any study of theology or philosophy (both of which are thought-based) yields very close to zero basis on which to predict how people will act or to analyze how they have acted. Thinking is utterly irrelevant. There are two theories making the rounds that I find very exciting and that I am increasingly convinced may be true (whatever the he'll "true" means). The first theory is that there is no such thing as causality. Things just happen. One can gather statistics about events, but statistics have no connection with causality. The second theory is that there is no such thing as conscious decision making. Decisions arise in consciousness after processes of which no one is conscious have put the body in motion. Everything we call decision making is after-the-act rationalization. There being no conscious decisions, there is no free will and therefore no moral responsibility. Some of the conclusions I have been driven to consider as pretty likely to be the way things really are may be at odds with Buddhist dogma, which is itself part of the delusional sham that Buddhists pretend to want to eliminate. Just some thoughts. Now I'm going to bed. Goodnight, Richard Philip Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Feb 9 18:45:56 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 18:45:56 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Students as potential spooks? In-Reply-To: <8CEB5A6EA5C19CB-180C-A9CC@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CEB414B4270A70-1F4C-5C47@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <8CEB5A6EA5C19CB-180C-A9CC@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <505388BB-B90E-4867-8D83-408049C49421@unm.edu> On Feb 9, 2012, at 6:03 PM, sjziobro at cs.com wrote: > Then you can now vote Republican with impunity, since now you've no compelling reason(s) to do otherwise and because I've now told you to do so! It makes no difference whether one votes for a Republican sociopathic liar bankrolled by heartless kleptomaniacs or a Democrat sociopathic liar bankrolled by heartless kleptomaniacs. Kleptocracy is the only game in town. Richard Hayes a republican democrat From jkirk at spro.net Thu Feb 9 21:26:15 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 21:26:15 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Students as potential spooks? In-Reply-To: <505388BB-B90E-4867-8D83-408049C49421@unm.edu> References: <8CEB414B4270A70-1F4C-5C47@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <8CEB5A6EA5C19CB-180C-A9CC@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <505388BB-B90E-4867-8D83-408049C49421@unm.edu> Message-ID: <002301cce7ac$21414aa0$63c3dfe0$@spro.net> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 6:46 PM: It makes no difference whether one votes for a Republican sociopathic liar bankrolled by heartless kleptomaniacs or a Democrat sociopathic liar bankrolled by heartless kleptomaniacs. Kleptocracy is the only game in town. Richard Hayes a republican democrat ______________________________ May I recommend a contemporary graphic novel published in India (avail. on amazon, et al I guess) that reminds one of other countries as well as the one in this story: _Lie : A Traditional Tale of Modern India_, by Gautam Bhatia. Tranquebar Press, 2010. Joanna K. From leigh at deneb.org Fri Feb 10 16:40:25 2012 From: leigh at deneb.org (Leigh Goldstein) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 15:40:25 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist Saints in India Message-ID: <000001cce84d$5dfd7800$19f86800$@deneb.org> Regarding Reginald Ray's _Buddhist Saints in India: A Study in Buddhist Values and Orientations_. Is there any scholarly consensus or schools of thought on the validity of his thesis, which as I understood it is that the Mahayana form is not a later development but possibly represents a tradition that was prior to the monastic one expressed in the Pali suttas? What is thought of the degree to which monastic institutions and rules post-date the Buddha rather than being the original form of Buddhist practice, and the status of forest saints or practitioners during Buddha's lifetime? Have refutations of his arguments been published? From dhmahabodhi at hotmail.com Fri Feb 10 19:27:33 2012 From: dhmahabodhi at hotmail.com (Dharmachari Mahabodhi) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 02:27:33 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist Saints in India In-Reply-To: <000001cce84d$5dfd7800$19f86800$@deneb.org> References: <000001cce84d$5dfd7800$19f86800$@deneb.org> Message-ID: As far as I understand it, his main thesis is that there have always been three types of buddhist practitioner, not two, which is obvious if you forget about theories and just look at Buddhist history Jan Nattier ('A Few Good Men') argues against it, though I wouldn't say she refutes the thesis above, only some less important points he makes Mahabodhi Triratna Buddhist Order 07973 699750 www.mahabodhi.org.uk > From: leigh at deneb.org > To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 15:40:25 -0800 > Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist Saints in India > > Regarding Reginald Ray's _Buddhist Saints in India: A Study in Buddhist Values and Orientations_. > > Is there any scholarly consensus or schools of thought on the validity of his thesis, which as I understood it is that the Mahayana form is not a later development but possibly represents a tradition that was prior to the monastic one expressed in the Pali suttas? > > What is thought of the degree to which monastic institutions and rules post-date the Buddha rather than being the original form of Buddhist practice, and the status of forest saints or practitioners during Buddha's lifetime? > > Have refutations of his arguments been published? > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From bshmr at aol.com Sat Feb 11 09:20:49 2012 From: bshmr at aol.com (Richard Basham) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 10:20:49 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Open Acess Academic Publishing Message-ID: <1328977249.3982.14.camel@aims110> An interesting bit (to me) on a the subject of academic publishing is appended. Warning long URL (enclosed in double-quotes) so one can see the source, plus a short indirect from tinyurl.com. Via Postside.org, BTW. What is/are appropriate -ology(ies) to characterize such an article? Richard Basham ** The Other Academic Freedom Movement: How Scientists Broke Through the Paywall and Made Their Articles Available to (Almost) Everyone. Slate By Konstantin Kakaes Feb. 9, 2012 In the summer of 1991, Paul Ginsparg, a researcher at the Los Alamos nuclear laboratory, set up an email system for about 200 string theorists to exchange papers they had written. The World Wide Web was a mere infant- it had been opened to the public on Aug. 6 of that year. The string theorists weren't particularly interested in making their research widely available (outsiders would have a tough time following the conversation anyhow). Ginsparg's archive was a way for the theorists to communicate with one another. For a short while, it would remain an insular tool for exchanging the latest theories of quantum gravity. But the novel system of communication would become the basis for a new model of academic publishing. Some wags would later joke that it was string theory's greatest contribution to science. By 1996, Ginsparg would write: "Many of us have long been aware that certain physics journals currently play NO role whatsoever for physicists. Their primary role seems to be to provide a revenue stream to publishers, a revenue stream invisibly siphoned from overhead on research contracts through library systems." The arXiv, as it came to be known, was by then used widely in physics; some mathematicians and computer scientists had also started using it. Ginsparg had increasingly turned from doing physics to running the archive. (In 2002, he even received a MacArthur "genius grant" for his work on the arXiv .) ... Whatever the White House ends up saying, and even if Congress remains gridlocked, the movement toward open publishing now seems irreversible. In 1996, Ginsparg said that it wasn't a question of if, but when "commercial publishers accustomed to large pre-tax profit margins" would find themselves unable to compete with a "global raw research archive" combined with "high-quality peer-reviewed overlays." The answer to his question seems clear: now. This article arises from Future Tense, a collaboration among Arizona State University, the New America Foundation, and Slate. Future Tense explores the ways emerging technologies affect society, policy, and culture. To read more, visit the Future Tense blog and the Future Tense home page. You can also follow us on Twitter. "http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2012/02/federal_research_public_access_act_the_research_works_act_and_the_open_access_movement_.html" http://tinyurl.com/83bhgf6 From chris.fynn at gmail.com Sat Feb 11 10:54:20 2012 From: chris.fynn at gmail.com (Christopher Fynn) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 23:54:20 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] New Buddhist Topic: Buddhism and Cats In-Reply-To: <000b01cccb73$25d7d0c0$71877240$@spro.net> References: <1325379787.32676.20.camel@aims110> <005001ccc830$5a0a4670$0e1ed350$@spro.net> <000b01cccb73$25d7d0c0$71877240$@spro.net> Message-ID: To all list members with cats: Are cat parasites altering your mind? http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/03/how-your-cat-is-making-you-crazy/8873/2/?single_page=true On 05/01/2012, Jo wrote: > Hi Artur, > > Here's a scholarly article you can no doubt get that covers this cat: > > I've written at length about this 'hypocritical cat'--finally, in my book, > but you can get the prior article as a free pdf from JStor (pages 226-227): > > The M?mallapuram Pra?asti: A Panegyric in Figures > Michael D. Rabe > Artibus Asiae, Vol. 57, No. 3/4 (1997), pp. 189-241 > > Best, > Joanna > > > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com > [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Artur Karp > Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 11:41 PM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] New Buddhist Topic: Buddhism and Cats > > Cat, a perfect seducer. > > > Mahabalipuram ascetic cat and his mice acolytes: > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/peteropaliu/5478257551/lightbox/ > > > Artur K. > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From mb.schiekel at arcor.de Sat Feb 11 11:23:22 2012 From: mb.schiekel at arcor.de (M.B. Schiekel) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 19:23:22 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Open Acess Academic Publishing In-Reply-To: <1328977249.3982.14.camel@aims110> References: <1328977249.3982.14.camel@aims110> Message-ID: <4F36B21A.2070508@arcor.de> Am 11.02.2012 17:20, schrieb Richard Basham: > > The Other Academic Freedom Movement: > How Scientists Broke Through the Paywall and Made Their Articles > Available to (Almost) Everyone. > Slate By Konstantin Kakaes Feb. 9, 2012 > ... > The arXiv, as it came to be > known, was by then used widely in physics; some mathematicians and > computer scientists had also started using it. > ... Dear all, as a mathematical physicist I'm using arXiv all the time. But now the CERN (the originator of the http-communication) has invented a new publication-modell: SCOAP3 (Sponsoring Consortium for Open Access Publishing in Particle Physics) http://scoap3.org . This is a partnership programm with some publishers, in which the distribution of the articles takes place according Open Access rules and the publishers are only paid for the organisation of the peer reviewing. bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-2.0.12 From sjziobro at cs.com Sat Feb 11 11:54:29 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 13:54:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Students as potential spooks? Message-ID: <8CEB705B7B89DEB-1A90-899C@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Maybe. But returning to a remark you made on February 7: "The second theory is that there is no such thing as conscious decision making. Decisions arise in consciousness after processes of which no one is conscious have put the body in motion. Everything we call decision making is after-the-act rationalization. There being no conscious decisions, there is no free will and therefore no moral responsibility." Would you and the theorists who have come to this conclusion conceive of a distinction between pre-conscious activities allowing for acts of knowing and the further activity of reasoning wherein one does consciously make decisions? In both cases the powers of intellect and will are necessarily active due to a de facto necessary cognitional structure. The difference would be that between this necessary cognitional structure and a further exercise thereof precisely on the conscious level. On the pre-conscious level there is no question of free will, since at this level there is no ethical or moral element that is at question. But when applied to choices or decisions relating to ethical and moral issues free will is necessarily involved. Basically, one is considering the relation of volition to intellect, love to truth, and in certain Buddhist circles wisdom to compassion. Stan -----Original Message----- From: Richard Hayes To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Thu, Feb 9, 2012 8:45 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Students as potential spooks? On Feb 9, 2012, at 6:03 PM, sjziobro at cs.com wrote: > Then you can now vote Republican with impunity, since now you've no compelling reason(s) to do otherwise and because I've now told you to do so! It makes no difference whether one votes for a Republican sociopathic liar bankrolled by heartless kleptomaniacs or a Democrat sociopathic liar bankrolled by heartless kleptomaniacs. Kleptocracy is the only game in town. Richard Hayes a republican democrat _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sat Feb 11 12:26:37 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 12:26:37 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Open Acess Academic Publishing In-Reply-To: <4F36B21A.2070508@arcor.de> References: <1328977249.3982.14.camel@aims110> <4F36B21A.2070508@arcor.de> Message-ID: <002c01cce8f3$132831c0$39789540$@spro.net> Am 11.02.2012 17:20, schrieb Richard Basham: > > The Other Academic Freedom Movement: > How Scientists Broke Through the Paywall and Made Their Articles > Available to (Almost) Everyone. > Slate By Konstantin Kakaes Feb. 9, 2012 ... > The arXiv, as it came to be > known, was by then used widely in physics; some mathematicians and > computer scientists had also started using it. > ... Dear all, as a mathematical physicist I'm using arXiv all the time. But now the CERN (the originator of the http-communication) has invented a new publication-modell: SCOAP3 (Sponsoring Consortium for Open Access Publishing in Particle Physics) http://scoap3.org . This is a partnership programm with some publishers, in which the distribution of the articles takes place according Open Access rules and the publishers are only paid for the organisation of the peer reviewing. bernhard -- http://www.mb-schiekel.de/ GPG-Key available: GnuPG-2.0.12 _________________________ Slowly but surely the cooperation of scientists and other researchers will break through the iron law of control by the biggest publishers. Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Sat Feb 11 12:31:01 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 12:31:01 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] more on the iron law of monopoly publishing Message-ID: <002e01cce8f3$b0b06930$12113b90$@spro.net> Please see this essay: http://www.monbiot.com/2011/08/29/the-lairds-of-learning/ "The Lairds of Learning: How did academic publishers acquire these feudal powers?" By George Monbiot. Published in _The Guardian_, 30th August 2011 Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Sat Feb 11 12:54:43 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 12:54:43 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left Message-ID: <004801cce8f7$00020400$00060c00$@spro.net> That's probably why we don't find that right-wingers by the hundreds don't embrace Buddhist practice. I suspect that among the Buddhist cadres they are quite rare. The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left | Common Dreams From jkirk at spro.net Sat Feb 11 13:04:24 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 13:04:24 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Correction -----------------Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Message-ID: <005201cce8f8$5a0c49f0$0e24ddd0$@spro.net> Trapped by a double negative. Rephrase: "That's probably why we find that right-wingers by the hundreds don't embrace...." Sorry. JK -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Jo Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 12:55 PM To: Buddha-L Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left That's probably why we don't find that right-wingers by the hundreds don't embrace Buddhist practice. I suspect that among the Buddhist cadres they are quite rare. The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left | Common Dreams _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From sjziobro at cs.com Sat Feb 11 13:11:42 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 15:11:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left In-Reply-To: <004801cce8f7$00020400$00060c00$@spro.net> References: <004801cce8f7$00020400$00060c00$@spro.net> Message-ID: <8CEB7108174F50E-1A90-8E20@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> I tend to think that only one on the Left could seriously write this sort of stuff. Note the tone of equanimity. One major fallacy is to correlate intelligence with a particular ideology. Intellectual honesty would lead one to note that there are plenty of highly intelligent people on the Right. The problem with many on the Left is that they will not claim their opponents are mistaken, but that they are stupid and evil. This isn't my general experience of the highly intelligent and articulate people on the Right. -----Original Message----- From: Jo To: Buddha-L Sent: Sat, Feb 11, 2012 2:54 pm Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left That's probably why we don't find that right-wingers by the hundreds don't embrace Buddhist practice. I suspect that among the Buddhist cadres they are quite rare. The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left | Common Dreams _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sat Feb 11 13:15:12 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 13:15:12 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] on anicca, Omar Khayyam style Message-ID: <005601cce8f9$dcbfa670$963ef350$@spro.net> Even though I am so precious And beautiful, like a crystal, or a tulip, Or a pine tree so green and tall-- I cannot understand why the creator Made me so precious, yet After all that work, the potter breaks me down And finishes me off. (The term potter translates literally as 'jug maker') (I guess if one imbibes the way Omar did, one does tend to overrate one's beauty. But language aside, he knew we are all self-attached. This reminds me of the oft-stated Tibetan Buddhist phrase, a human life is precious.) Edited, so to speak, from a translation of the original by an Iranian friend. Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Sat Feb 11 13:53:53 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 13:53:53 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left In-Reply-To: <8CEB7108174F50E-1A90-8E20@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> References: <004801cce8f7$00020400$00060c00$@spro.net> <8CEB7108174F50E-1A90-8E20@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <008f01cce8ff$43dd41a0$cb97c4e0$@spro.net> Stan, As I read the article it admits that there are plenty of intelligent people on the right. It did however view their political roles with a certain irony. Joanna Stan wrote: I tend to think that only one on the Left could seriously write this sort of stuff. Note the tone of equanimity. One major fallacy is to correlate intelligence with a particular ideology. Intellectual honesty would lead one to note that there are plenty of highly intelligent people on the Right. The problem with many on the Left is that they will not claim their opponents are mistaken, but that they are stupid and evil. This isn't my general experience of the highly intelligent and articulate people on the Right. -----Original Message----- From: Jo To: Buddha-L Sent: Sat, Feb 11, 2012 2:54 pm Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left That's probably why we don't find that right-wingers by the hundreds don't embrace Buddhist practice. I suspect that among the Buddhist cadres they are quite rare. The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left | Common Dreams _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From sjziobro at cs.com Sat Feb 11 14:09:37 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 16:09:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left In-Reply-To: <008f01cce8ff$43dd41a0$cb97c4e0$@spro.net> References: <004801cce8f7$00020400$00060c00$@spro.net><8CEB7108174F50E-1A90-8E20@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <008f01cce8ff$43dd41a0$cb97c4e0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <8CEB7189856A6E0-1A90-92D0@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Actually, JoAnna, the article admits that some few are intelligent, these is terms the guides of the vast majority of conservatives who, because of their low intelligence, are drawn to a simplistic, ordered, and racist worldview. I find little irony here. At any rate, I hope you are doing well these days. Stan -----Original Message----- From: Jo To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Sent: Sat, Feb 11, 2012 3:53 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left Stan, As I read the article it admits that there are plenty of intelligent people on the right. It did however view their political roles with a certain irony. Joanna Stan wrote: I tend to think that only one on the Left could seriously write this sort of stuff. Note the tone of equanimity. One major fallacy is to correlate intelligence with a particular ideology. Intellectual honesty would lead one to note that there are plenty of highly intelligent people on the Right. The problem with many on the Left is that they will not claim their opponents are mistaken, but that they are stupid and evil. This isn't my general experience of the highly intelligent and articulate people on the Right. -----Original Message----- From: Jo To: Buddha-L Sent: Sat, Feb 11, 2012 2:54 pm Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left That's probably why we don't find that right-wingers by the hundreds don't embrace Buddhist practice. I suspect that among the Buddhist cadres they are quite rare. The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left | Common Dreams _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jehms at xs4all.nl Sat Feb 11 14:37:46 2012 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 22:37:46 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left In-Reply-To: <8CEB7108174F50E-1A90-8E20@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> References: <004801cce8f7$00020400$00060c00$@spro.net> <8CEB7108174F50E-1A90-8E20@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4F36DFAA.2010801@xs4all.nl> Op 11-02-12 21:11, sjziobro at cs.com schreef: > I tend to think that only one on the Left could seriously write this sort of stuff. Note the tone of equanimity. One major fallacy is to correlate intelligence with a particular ideology. Intellectual honesty would lead one to note that there are plenty of highly intelligent people on the Right. The problem with many on the Left is that they will not claim their opponents are mistaken, but that they are stupid and evil. This isn't my general experience of the highly intelligent and articulate people on the Right. > Well Stan, I really would love to grant rightwingers some intelligence, but since they believe in the benevolent and flawless mechanism of free market and are deaf to environmental issues, I do not see any alternative. Looking at the facts an intelligent person should know better. Of course there are leftwingers who still believe in Marx and Marcuse, but those are just part of the left wing. In the U.S. not believing anything makes you a communist already and a very unusual Buddhist as well. Erik From jkirk at spro.net Sat Feb 11 15:24:09 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 15:24:09 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Khayyam again-----breath Message-ID: <001b01cce90b$e048ef10$a0dacd30$@spro.net> For some time I have thought that he was influenced by remnants-what Marx called the general intellect--probably not similar to what Jung called the collective unconscious, since the general intellect term isn't limited to the unconscious- of the ancient Buddhist culture that survived up 'til around the 9th c CE in his native area, Niishaapuur, where there are several Buddhist architectural ruins. Joanna ---------------------- This one translated by Juan Cole. Whinfield is a scan of an original Farsi text. Omar Khayyam (24) Posted: 11 Feb 2012 10:03 AM PST From jkirk at spro.net Sat Feb 11 15:30:21 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 15:30:21 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left In-Reply-To: <4F36DFAA.2010801@xs4all.nl> References: <004801cce8f7$00020400$00060c00$@spro.net> <8CEB7108174F50E-1A90-8E20@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <4F36DFAA.2010801@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <002101cce90c$bdccb290$396617b0$@spro.net> > Well Stan, I really would love to grant rightwingers some intelligence, but since they believe in the benevolent and flawless mechanism of free market and are deaf to environmental issues, I do not see any alternative. Looking at the facts an intelligent person should know better. Of course there are leftwingers who still believe in Marx and Marcuse, but those are just part of the left wing. In the U.S. not believing anything makes you a communist already and a very unusual Buddhist as well. Erik _________________ Yes, neo-Marxists abound, unknown to me how many of them are into Buddhism as well. I've been reading a good deal on that topic lately, so far no signs of much interest in Marcuse. Maybe I've missed it. Joanna From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Feb 11 16:05:29 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 16:05:29 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left In-Reply-To: <8CEB7108174F50E-1A90-8E20@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> References: <004801cce8f7$00020400$00060c00$@spro.net> <8CEB7108174F50E-1A90-8E20@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <54D83C68-C1AB-4515-B3C4-79EAC66ED2D9@unm.edu> On Feb 11, 2012, at 1:11 PM, sjziobro at cs.com wrote: > The problem with many on the Left is that they will not claim their opponents are mistaken, but that they are stupid and evil. This isn't my general experience of the highly intelligent and articulate people on the Right. First of all, the words Right and Left have become utterly meaningless. They are words so carelessly tossed around that have have lost all ability to communicate. That said, I think you have sliced this pie awkwardly, Dr Ziobro. I think few intelligent people of any persuasion characterize people who disagree with them as evil, simply because that is not a very intelligent thing to do. In my experience, no group of people has a monopoly on fallacious argumentation, and no group is the sole proprietor of good reasoning, and the distribution of good and bad reasoning is pretty even across all social and political categories. My guess the same is true among angels, dogs and cockroaches. Richard Hayes mediocre crackpot From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Feb 11 16:16:58 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 16:16:58 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left In-Reply-To: <004801cce8f7$00020400$00060c00$@spro.net> References: <004801cce8f7$00020400$00060c00$@spro.net> Message-ID: <429337EE-54B0-4840-863E-FBCF05CB867A@unm.edu> On Feb 11, 2012, at 12:54 PM, "Jo" wrote: > That's probably why we don't find that right-wingers by the hundreds don't > embrace Buddhist practice. I suspect that among the Buddhist cadres they are quite rare. In the United States and Canada there is a pretty significant difference in the range of political persuasion among Asian birthright Buddhists and North American converts to Buddhism. Go hang out at a congregation of the Buddhist Church of America, and I think you may find the majority are on what you might consider right wing. Richard Hayes Politically and religiously uncategorizable From sjziobro at cs.com Sat Feb 11 18:44:34 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 20:44:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left In-Reply-To: <54D83C68-C1AB-4515-B3C4-79EAC66ED2D9@unm.edu> References: <004801cce8f7$00020400$00060c00$@spro.net><8CEB7108174F50E-1A90-8E20@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <54D83C68-C1AB-4515-B3C4-79EAC66ED2D9@unm.edu> Message-ID: <8CEB73F016C9C08-1A90-A037@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Richard, Your points are, for the most part, well taken, even with regard to the angels, dogs, and roaches. My only disagreement is that intelligent people or people of good will can use the terms Right and Left more as indicators than judgments, and thereby avoid the obstacles to authentic communication. Stan -----Original Message----- From: Richard Hayes To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:05 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left On Feb 11, 2012, at 1:11 PM, sjziobro at cs.com wrote: > The problem with many on the Left is that they will not claim their opponents are mistaken, but that they are stupid and evil. This isn't my general experience of the highly intelligent and articulate people on the Right. First of all, the words Right and Left have become utterly meaningless. They are words so carelessly tossed around that have have lost all ability to communicate. That said, I think you have sliced this pie awkwardly, Dr Ziobro. I think few intelligent people of any persuasion characterize people who disagree with them as evil, simply because that is not a very intelligent thing to do. In my experience, no group of people has a monopoly on fallacious argumentation, and no group is the sole proprietor of good reasoning, and the distribution of good and bad reasoning is pretty even across all social and political categories. My guess the same is true among angels, dogs and cockroaches. Richard Hayes mediocre crackpot _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sat Feb 11 19:35:06 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 19:35:06 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Japan priest fights local radiation Message-ID: <001e01cce92e$ef1e4e90$cd5aebb0$@spro.net> http://tinyurl.com/7hyd2yj Feb 10, 2012 FUKUSHIMA (Reuters) - On the snowy fringes of Japan's Fukushima city, now notorious as a byword for nuclear crisis, Zen monk Koyu Abe offers prayers for the souls of thousands left dead or missing after the earthquake and tsunami nearly one year ago. But away from the ceremonial drums and the incense swirling around the Joenji temple altar, Abe has undertaken another task, no less harrowing -- to search out radioactive "hot spots" and clean them up, storing irradiated earth on temple grounds. The Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, some 50 km (31 miles) away, suffered a series of explosions and meltdowns after the massive earthquake and tsunami last March 11, setting off the world's worst nuclear crisis since Chernobyl in 1986 and forcing 80,000 people from their homes. Radiation, carried on winds and by snow, spread far beyond the 20 km (12 miles) evacuation zone around the plant, nestling in hot spots across the region and contaminating the ground in what remains a largely agricultural region. Many of those who fled have no idea when, if ever, they can return to land held by their families for generations. [more in article] Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Sat Feb 11 19:38:23 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 19:38:23 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left In-Reply-To: <429337EE-54B0-4840-863E-FBCF05CB867A@unm.edu> References: <004801cce8f7$00020400$00060c00$@spro.net> <429337EE-54B0-4840-863E-FBCF05CB867A@unm.edu> Message-ID: <001f01cce92f$648c1ae0$2da450a0$@spro.net> On Feb 11, 2012, at 12:54 PM, "Jo" wrote: > That's probably why we don't find that right-wingers by the hundreds > don't embrace Buddhist practice. I suspect that among the Buddhist cadres they are quite rare. In the United States and Canada there is a pretty significant difference in the range of political persuasion among Asian birthright Buddhists and North American converts to Buddhism. Go hang out at a congregation of the Buddhist Church of America, and I think you may find the majority are on what you might consider right wing. Richard Hayes Politically and religiously uncategorizable _______________________________________________ Good point--I was thinking about non-Asians. Bad habit generalising while leaving out the Asians here. I of course was not speaking about people outside the US. Joanna From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Sat Feb 11 21:06:54 2012 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 20:06:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1329019614.72570.YahooMailNeo@web112620.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Joanna Kirk wrote: ? "That's probably why we don't find that right-wingers by the hundreds don't embrace Buddhist practice. I suspect that among the Buddhist cadres they are quite rare." ? I'm not sure if this applies to countries other than the U.S.A.? I recall that, a few years ago, someone on this list said that in several Asian countries, Buddhist practitioners aren't necessarily progressive.? At least the Buddhism/left-wing connection hasn't been my experience in Costa Rica.? Sanghas here tend to have a mix of political orientations among their members.? Conversation topics in Costa Rica drift?easily and often?to both local and international politics, and there is little or no peer pressure in the Sanghas I've?been involved with?to take sides on any given issue.? Of course, the Tibetan groups?here are decidedly?in favor of freeing Tibet from China, but how their members vote locally is entirely their business. ? Katherine Masis San Jose, Costa Rica From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Feb 11 22:13:22 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 22:13:22 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In-Reply-To: <1329019614.72570.YahooMailNeo@web112620.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1329019614.72570.YahooMailNeo@web112620.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Feb 11, 2012, at 9:06 PM, Katherine Masis wrote: > Of course, the Tibetan groups here are decidedly in favor of freeing Tibet from China, but how their members vote locally is entirely their business. Being a locatarian, I am a bit more interested in freeing the Navajo and Apache nations from America. I expect the Tibetans to have about as much success as the Din? have had in gaining their freedom. As a Quaker forced to stand by helplessly as the American government tramples my religious convictions by using my tax dollars to fund the gratuitous invasion of sovereign nations, I find myself quite sympathetic to those who have protested against Obama's recent blunders in stomping on people's religious convictions. His incredible insensitivity in this matter of birth control seems about equivalent to requiring mosques and synagogues to distribute pork, or requiring M?dhyamikas to use valid arguments. What was he THINKING? I have been delighted to hear Rick Santorum finally stand up for the religious rights of Quakers not to have to pay taxes to support military adventures on foreign soil. He did stand up for that, didn't he? Didn't he? Richard Hayes Bumbling fool and purblind idiot From randall.bernard.jones at gmail.com Sat Feb 11 22:23:54 2012 From: randall.bernard.jones at gmail.com (Randall Jones) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 12:23:54 +0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In-Reply-To: References: <1329019614.72570.YahooMailNeo@web112620.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4f374d66.a69d320a.0e8e.ffffc9e8@mx.google.com> At 12:13 PM 2/12/2012, Richard Hayes wrote: >[Obama's] incredible insensitivity in this matter of birth control >seems about equivalent to requiring mosques and synagogues to >distribute pork ... Surely the money paid their employees could be used to obtain pork if the employees so desired. So what's so different about providing their employees comprehensive health insurance that could be used to obtain birth control if the employees so desired. (Or am I just missing an ironical intent?) Randall Jones From Jackhat1 at aol.com Sun Feb 12 05:32:43 2012 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 07:32:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads Message-ID: In a message dated 2/11/2012 11:12:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, rhayes at unm.edu writes: I find myself quite sympathetic to those who have protested against Obama's recent blunders in stomping on people's religious convictions. His incredible insensitivity in this matter of birth control seems about equivalent to requiring mosques and synagogues to distribute pork, or requiring Mdhyamikas to use valid arguments. What was he THINKING? === Let's see. First, the Catholic Church won't fund the insurance that covers birth control. Catholic Churches are exempt. It applies only to Catholic institutions that offer services to non Catholics as well as Catholics. Think a Catholic hospital set in a poor area of town. State laws at least here in Illinois prevent another hospital from opening up nearby and competing with them. It receives enormous amounts of federal cash both directly and indirectly through not having to pay taxes. Plus birth control is not forced on anyone; they can refuse. Add to all this the fact that surveys have shown that 98% of Catholic women have used birth control sometime in their lives. How is all this stomping on people's religious convictions? It seems to me to offset a Catholic hierarchy's forcing their beliefs on others. jack From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Feb 12 07:30:20 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 07:30:20 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In-Reply-To: <4f374d66.a69d320a.0e8e.ffffc9e8@mx.google.com> References: <1329019614.72570.YahooMailNeo@web112620.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4f374d66.a69d320a.0e8e.ffffc9e8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5357C192-463B-4C01-8B4C-DB832A49718D@unm.edu> On Feb 11, 2012, at 10:23 PM, Randall Jones wrote: > (Or am I just > missing an ironical intent?) You should know by now I never resort to irony. If people can't just come right out and say what they mean in a society filled with fanatics who are armed and dangerous, they don't deserve to be heard. Take away their freedom of speech, I say. Revoke their poetic licenses. Send them back to Mexico. Ricardo Jeiz From jkirk at spro.net Sun Feb 12 08:50:28 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 08:50:28 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002f01cce99e$0b1fcdc0$215f6940$@spro.net> === Let's see. First, the Catholic Church won't fund the insurance that covers birth control. Catholic Churches are exempt. It applies only to Catholic institutions that offer services to non Catholics as well as Catholics. Think a Catholic hospital set in a poor area of town. State laws at least here in Illinois prevent another hospital from opening up nearby and competing with them. It receives enormous amounts of federal cash both directly and indirectly through not having to pay taxes. Plus birth control is not forced on anyone; they can refuse. Add to all this the fact that surveys have shown that 98% of Catholic women have used birth control sometime in their lives. How is all this stomping on people's religious convictions? It seems to me to offset a Catholic hierarchy's forcing their beliefs on others. jack ------------------------------ Well put, Jack. Back in the early fifties, the Catholic hierarchy in this country was so powerful in some states, like the one I was living in at the time (Conn.), that a married woman in need of birth control couldn't get it in that state. Condoms were "available" but illegal, sold under the counter. There no constitutional separation of church and state then. My husband and I had to go to a Massachusett's town across the border, to the much reviled Planned Parenthood office, to take care of my requirements. As a no income grad student, I was provided for free. Thank the Catholics' god that we no longer have had to put up with such nonsense. But the evengeos and the fundos are trying to start another war on the exercise of women's health rights; the Catholic hierarchy is only too pleased to go along with this move, as we have already seen, even as their hospitals never refuse the perqs offered by government that excuses them from paying property taxes. Joanna From sjziobro at cs.com Sun Feb 12 10:25:32 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 12:25:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CEB7C2753C8D15-1A90-BF48@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Jack, I rather appreciated Richard's remarks vis-a-vis his Quaker faith and the U.S. Government using his tax dollars for purposes to which he is fundamentally opposed. In fact, I would even say that Richard is in the right here. The government is seeking to force Catholic institutions, which are precisely Catholic and founded on Catholic principles, to operate on premises and mores contrary to the Catholic Faith. This is a huge intrusion of the State upon the constitutionally guaranteed free exercise of religion. As such this opens the door to State intrusion in all religious matters, and intruding whether or not they pertain to Catholics. This is the point, and not whether the Catholic Church holds positions with which you agree. How is the State here doing anything differently from what you protest about the Catholic Church? The fact is that we are not living in 1954 and artificial birth control is readily available to whomever wants to procure it. Stan Ziobro -----Original Message----- From: Jackhat1 To: buddha-l Sent: Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:33 am Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In a message dated 2/11/2012 11:12:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, rhayes at unm.edu writes: I find myself quite sympathetic to those who have protested against Obama's recent blunders in stomping on people's religious convictions. His incredible insensitivity in this matter of birth control seems about equivalent to requiring mosques and synagogues to distribute pork, or requiring Mdhyamikas to use valid arguments. What was he THINKING? === Let's see. First, the Catholic Church won't fund the insurance that covers birth control. Catholic Churches are exempt. It applies only to Catholic institutions that offer services to non Catholics as well as Catholics. Think a Catholic hospital set in a poor area of town. State laws at least here in Illinois prevent another hospital from opening up nearby and competing with them. It receives enormous amounts of federal cash both directly and indirectly through not having to pay taxes. Plus birth control is not forced on anyone; they can refuse. Add to all this the fact that surveys have shown that 98% of Catholic women have used birth control sometime in their lives. How is all this stomping on people's religious convictions? It seems to me to offset a Catholic hierarchy's forcing their beliefs on others. jack _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From Jackhat1 at aol.com Sun Feb 12 10:34:38 2012 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 12:34:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads Message-ID: Stan, I still don't understand what the State is forcing the Catholic Church or Catholics to do. Please say more about this forcing issue. I think Richards's comment is a different issue and one I understand. Jack In a message dated 2/12/2012 11:25:59 A.M. Central Standard Time, sjziobro at cs.com writes: I rather appreciated Richard's remarks vis-a-vis his Quaker faith and the U.S. Government using his tax dollars for purposes to which he is fundamentally opposed. In fact, I would even say that Richard is in the right here. The government is seeking to force Catholic institutions, which are precisely Catholic and founded on Catholic principles, to operate on premises and mores contrary to the Catholic Faith. This is a huge intrusion of the State upon the constitutionally guaranteed free exercise of religion. As such this opens the door to State intrusion in all religious matters, and intruding whether or not they pertain to Catholics. This is the point, and not whether the Catholic Church holds positions with which you agree. How is the State here doing anything differently from what you protest about the Catholic Church? The fact is that we are not living in 1954 and artificial birth control is readily available to whomever wants to procure it. From sjziobro at cs.com Sun Feb 12 11:07:59 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 13:07:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CEB7C8633F1401-1A90-C38D@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Jack, I understood the deep structure of Richard's comment to refer to a situation where the U.S. Government is forcing a religious entity and its adherents to provide resources for an enterprise to which it objects on religious and moral grounds. Structurally, this observations shares a parity with what the U.S. Government under an HHS mandate is demanding of Catholic institutions and believers. I would agree that, on the surface, paying taxes for purposes of war is not the same as providing birth control, but the key is the violation of the free expression of a rightly formed conscience, and this whether on an individual or communal level. The Catholic bishops offered a response on January 10 of this year to President Obama's expressed compromise solution. It can be located at http://www.usccb.org/news/2012/12-026.cfm. It is the view of the bishops that this compromise is not an actual compromise since the mandate actually still applies in a more disguised form for religious organizations and applies unchanged for non-religious entities whose people nonetheless find the mandate intrusive and objectionable. The issue is fundamentally one centering on the freedom of religion and religious practice, not whether one agrees with the appearances and substance of any particular religious ethos, doctrine, or involvement in the civil sphere. As such, this seems to me a valid concern for all, even scholars of religion in its various manifestations. Regards, Stan -----Original Message----- From: Jackhat1 To: buddha-l Sent: Sun, Feb 12, 2012 12:35 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads Stan, I still don't understand what the State is forcing the Catholic Church or Catholics to do. Please say more about this forcing issue. I think Richards's comment is a different issue and one I understand. Jack In a message dated 2/12/2012 11:25:59 A.M. Central Standard Time, sjziobro at cs.com writes: I rather appreciated Richard's remarks vis-a-vis his Quaker faith and the U.S. Government using his tax dollars for purposes to which he is fundamentally opposed. In fact, I would even say that Richard is in the right here. The government is seeking to force Catholic institutions, which are precisely Catholic and founded on Catholic principles, to operate on premises and mores contrary to the Catholic Faith. This is a huge intrusion of the State upon the constitutionally guaranteed free exercise of religion. As such this opens the door to State intrusion in all religious matters, and intruding whether or not they pertain to Catholics. This is the point, and not whether the Catholic Church holds positions with which you agree. How is the State here doing anything differently from what you protest about the Catholic Church? The fact is that we are not living in 1954 and artificial birth control is readily available to whomever wants to procure it. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From Jackhat1 at aol.com Sun Feb 12 11:24:08 2012 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 13:24:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads Message-ID: In a message dated 2/12/2012 12:08:29 P.M. Central Standard Time, sjziobro at cs.com writes: I understood the deep structure of Richard's comment to refer to a situation where the U.S. Government is forcing a religious entity and its adherents to provide resources for an enterprise to which it objects on religious and moral grounds. Structurally, this observations shares a parity with what the U.S. Government under an HHS mandate is demanding of Catholic institutions and believers. ==== My understanding is that the religious entity, i.e., Catholic Church, does not provide any resources. What resources do you think it provides? The State certainly provides resources/money to it. =================== The Catholic bishops offered a response on January 10 of this year to President Obama's expressed compromise solution. It can be located at _http://www.usccb.org/news/2012/12-026.cfm_ (http://www.usccb.org/news/2012/12-026.cfm) . ============== New York Archbishop Timothy Dolan, head of the U.S bishop's conference, stated yesterday that the general plan as modified by the Administration looks acceptable but he is still worried about the details. By the way, I attend my wife's Catholic Church. I like the priests with whom I occasionally go out to have a coffee or stronger libations, like their outreach programs (for instance, they are the largest provider of food and funds to local food pantries) and like the people I have met there. I am a big fan. Not so much for the hierarchy above local priests. Jackjack From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Feb 12 12:46:53 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 12:46:53 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In-Reply-To: <8CEB7C2753C8D15-1A90-BF48@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CEB7C2753C8D15-1A90-BF48@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <580CD56C-3B74-4CD1-9DD0-D8A7E130F5DD@unm.edu> On Feb 12, 2012, at 10:25 AM, sjziobro at cs.com wrote: > This is a huge intrusion of the State upon the constitutionally guaranteed free exercise of religion. To tell the truth, Stan, I'm actually completely in favor of the state intruding on organized religion. (I have to tell the truth, because you apparently missed my irony.) People should be allowed to worship as they please at home and in whatever they want to call their assembly halls, but schools, hospitals, clinics, prisons and other public welfare institutions should be 100% in the control of the state and wrested out of the hands of both religious and commercial enterprises. Health, education and welfare are far too important to be left in the hands of ideologues and profit-takers. The cult of the false goddess Liberty in the United States is probably the single greatest threat to the survival of the country. Why should people be free to be greedy and stupid and armed? It makes no sense at all. One of the worst mistakes made in the history of the US (aside from the failure to ban slavery immediately) was the decision to allow religious schools, private schools and home schooling. It has pretty much guaranteed an ideologically divided society with hardly any sense of common purpose, and with no sense of shared history. Hell's bells, any Buddhist could have told you America was on the wrong course the minute a bunch of ruffians dumped tea in the Boston harbor. No country that wastes tea can end up well. Just ask Eisai. Richard Hayes (Educator dedicated to indoctrinating our nation's youth until they see the folly of organized religion and of voting for morons like Rick Santorum, and Mormons like Mitt Romney) From sjziobro at cs.com Sun Feb 12 12:57:42 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 14:57:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CEB7D7B740CB09-1A90-CB6A@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Jackhat1 To: buddha-l Sent: Sun, Feb 12, 2012 1:24 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In a message dated 2/12/2012 12:08:29 P.M. Central Standard Time, sjziobro at cs.com writes: I understood the deep structure of Richard's comment to refer to a situation where the U.S. Government is forcing a religious entity and its adherents to provide resources for an enterprise to which it objects on religious and moral grounds. Structurally, this observations shares a parity with what the U.S. Government under an HHS mandate is demanding of Catholic institutions and believers. ==== My understanding is that the religious entity, i.e., Catholic Church, does not provide any resources. What resources do you think it provides? The State certainly provides resources/money to it. =================== [Stan responds: The resources I had in mind were contraceptive and/or abortifacient, which are not presently provided, but which the HHS mandate requires Catholic institutions to provide within the year. I appreciate your comment concerning certain State funding accepted in Catholic healthcare facilities. If they never received any in the first place, or it they stopped receiving them, this would not have been an issue.] The Catholic bishops offered a response on January 10 of this year to President Obama's expressed compromise solution. It can be located at _http://www.usccb.org/news/2012/12-026.cfm_ (http://www.usccb.org/news/2012/12-026.cfm) . ============== New York Archbishop Timothy Dolan, head of the U.S bishop's conference, stated yesterday that the general plan as modified by the Administration looks acceptable but he is still worried about the details. [Stan responds: Yes, I know that Archbishop Dolan made his statement prior to the later, official response. The later official response supercedes any initial observation and further outlines and articulates the concerns.] By the way, I attend my wife's Catholic Church. I like the priests with whom I occasionally go out to have a coffee or stronger libations, like their outreach programs (for instance, they are the largest provider of food and funds to local food pantries) and like the people I have met there. I am a big fan. Not so much for the hierarchy above local priests. [Stan responds: I fully understand your view of the bishops in general. I accept their authority and role, but I have other criticisms.] Jackjack _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From sjziobro at cs.com Sun Feb 12 13:03:06 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 15:03:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In-Reply-To: <580CD56C-3B74-4CD1-9DD0-D8A7E130F5DD@unm.edu> References: <8CEB7C2753C8D15-1A90-BF48@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <580CD56C-3B74-4CD1-9DD0-D8A7E130F5DD@unm.edu> Message-ID: <8CEB7D8782EA1D1-1A90-CBBF@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Richard, Apparently I did miss your intended irony. Clearly I do not agree with your subsequent remarks, if only because there is absolutely no guarantee that a State is enlightened and benevolent. The Communist, Fascist, and other tyrannical States of the last century into the present illustrate this point. Regards, Stan -----Original Message----- From: Richard Hayes To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Sun, Feb 12, 2012 2:46 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads On Feb 12, 2012, at 10:25 AM, sjziobro at cs.com wrote: > This is a huge intrusion of the State upon the constitutionally guaranteed free exercise of religion. To tell the truth, Stan, I'm actually completely in favor of the state intruding on organized religion. (I have to tell the truth, because you apparently missed my irony.) People should be allowed to worship as they please at home and in whatever they want to call their assembly halls, but schools, hospitals, clinics, prisons and other public welfare institutions should be 100% in the control of the state and wrested out of the hands of both religious and commercial enterprises. Health, education and welfare are far too important to be left in the hands of ideologues and profit-takers. The cult of the false goddess Liberty in the United States is probably the single greatest threat to the survival of the country. Why should people be free to be greedy and stupid and armed? It makes no sense at all. One of the worst mistakes made in the history of the US (aside from the failure to ban slavery immediately) was the decision to allow religious schools, private schools and home schooling. It has pretty much guaranteed an ideologically divided society with hardly any sense of common purpose, and with no sense of shared history. Hell's bells, any Buddhist could have told you America was on the wrong course the minute a bunch of ruffians dumped tea in the Boston harbor. No country that wastes tea can end up well. Just ask Eisai. Richard Hayes (Educator dedicated to indoctrinating our nation's youth until they see the folly of organized religion and of voting for morons like Rick Santorum, and Mormons like Mitt Romney) _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From Jackhat1 at aol.com Sun Feb 12 13:22:15 2012 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 15:22:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads Message-ID: <2094.10924476.3c697977@aol.com> In a message dated 2/12/2012 1:58:02 P.M. Central Standard Time, sjziobro at cs.com writes: My understanding is that the religious entity, i.e., Catholic Church, does not provide any resources. What resources do you think it provides? The State certainly provides resources/money to it. =================== [Stan responds: The resources I had in mind were contraceptive and/or abortifacient, which are not presently provided, but which the HHS mandate requires Catholic institutions to provide within the year. === No, the administration does not ask Catholic institutions to provide contraceptive or abortion services or money toward contraceptive or abortion services. From sjziobro at cs.com Sun Feb 12 14:03:29 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 16:03:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In-Reply-To: <2094.10924476.3c697977@aol.com> References: <2094.10924476.3c697977@aol.com> Message-ID: <8CEB7E0E7E0201D-1A90-D022@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Jack, actually, the whole matter arose precisely because the present Administration is unequivocally mandating that Catholic healthcare institutions provide artificial contraceptives and abortifacients to patients and employees. The President's purported compromise has been rejected because the bishops do not judge it to actually and truly respect and acknowledge the conscience of *both* Catholic healthcare providers and entities, and those of other providers and entities who, until now, were never required to implement such a mandate. What the bishops are doing is addressing the present Administration's novel disregard for the free exercise of religion -- or even business -- based on one's beliefs. Stan -----Original Message----- From: Jackhat1 To: buddha-l Sent: Sun, Feb 12, 2012 3:22 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In a message dated 2/12/2012 1:58:02 P.M. Central Standard Time, sjziobro at cs.com writes: My understanding is that the religious entity, i.e., Catholic Church, does not provide any resources. What resources do you think it provides? The State certainly provides resources/money to it. =================== [Stan responds: The resources I had in mind were contraceptive and/or abortifacient, which are not presently provided, but which the HHS mandate requires Catholic institutions to provide within the year. === No, the administration does not ask Catholic institutions to provide contraceptive or abortion services or money toward contraceptive or abortion services. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sun Feb 12 16:52:39 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 16:52:39 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads--a WIDER view Message-ID: <000c01cce9e1$67e9a2e0$37bce8a0$@spro.net> Top Ten Catholic Teachings Santorum Rejects while Obsessing about Birth Control http://www.juancole.com/2012/02/top-ten-catholic-teachings-santorum-rejects- while-obsessing-about-birth-control.html Joanna From bshmr at aol.com Mon Feb 13 14:45:52 2012 From: bshmr at aol.com (Richard Basham) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 15:45:52 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1329169552.6096.38.camel@aims110> [Rant] Apparently, some of us depend on, trust, and parrot Faux Noose. Or, the prevailing beliefs at Patrick Henry, Regents, Liberty, ... . But, it could be due to the genetic or familial pre-disposition being discussed more or less. Not that any of you would know, didn't I read some where that the policy on availability of birth control has existed for a few years now? That this media event started when a clarification and exemption was requested -- sort of a "we know it is the law/rule BUT WE, supported by your opposition, want special treatment" thing? Yeah, like "short people should be able to ignore STOP (Slight Tap On Pedal) signals and signs" because cars are designed for taller persons? Frankly, when one petitions and is certified by the State to be a trusted Agent with exceptional privileges and responsibilities, such as medical services provider, pharmacist, attorney, teacher, etc., then they obligate themselves to act as the transcendent State not as petty individuals and not as petty particularisms (gangs, denominations, etc.). [/Rant] Richard Basham From sjziobro at cs.com Mon Feb 13 17:34:44 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 19:34:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads--a WIDER view In-Reply-To: <000c01cce9e1$67e9a2e0$37bce8a0$@spro.net> References: <000c01cce9e1$67e9a2e0$37bce8a0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <8CEB8C79519F5A5-1A90-161A2@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Joanna, This is an interesting site in many aspects. Cole noted nothing that is binding on the consciences of Catholics, and so Ric Santorum cannot, with intellectual honesty, be conceived of as rejecting what is de fidei, that is, doctrines that require of Catholics the assent of faith. What Cole illustrates, however, is the attempt of the American Catholic bishops to utilize principles from the Church's social teaching, beginning with Leo XIII's encyclical on capital and labor, Rerum Novarum, which he issued in May of 1891. Context here is important, because Catholic social teaching is highly suspicious of State intrusion and control in the various Socialist and Communist variants effectively embraced by the Democratic Party here in the USA. It is also critical of some of what comprises the GOP platform. Regards, Stan -----Original Message----- From: Jo To: Buddha-L Sent: Sun, Feb 12, 2012 6:53 pm Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads--a WIDER view Top Ten Catholic Teachings Santorum Rejects while Obsessing about Birth Control http://www.juancole.com/2012/02/top-ten-catholic-teachings-santorum-rejects- while-obsessing-about-birth-control.html Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Mon Feb 13 18:18:47 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 18:18:47 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads--a WIDER view In-Reply-To: <8CEB8C79519F5A5-1A90-161A2@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> References: <000c01cce9e1$67e9a2e0$37bce8a0$@spro.net> <8CEB8C79519F5A5-1A90-161A2@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <003901cceab6$9a7702e0$cf6508a0$@spro.net> Well-- I strongly suspect that non-Catholics aren't ready to succumb to the dogmatic technicalities espoused by the Roman church. Only the true believers in Catholic dogma and official hermeneutics would be bothered by such distinctions. Reminds me of the dogmatic insistence on caste parameters and claims of transcendental purity and eternality of the highest Brahmanical shastric rulings in India. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of sjziobro at cs.com Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 5:35 PM To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] FW: Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads--a WIDER view Joanna, This is an interesting site in many aspects. Cole noted nothing that is binding on the consciences of Catholics, and so Ric Santorum cannot, with intellectual honesty, be conceived of as rejecting what is de fidei, that is, doctrines that require of Catholics the assent of faith. What Cole illustrates, however, is the attempt of the American Catholic bishops to utilize principles from the Church's social teaching, beginning with Leo XIII's encyclical on capital and labor, Rerum Novarum, which he issued in May of 1891. Context here is important, because Catholic social teaching is highly suspicious of State intrusion and control in the various Socialist and Communist variants effectively embraced by the Democratic Party here in the USA. It is also critical of some of what comprises the GOP platform. Regards, Stan -----Original Message----- From: Jo To: Buddha-L Sent: Sun, Feb 12, 2012 6:53 pm Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads--a WIDER view Top Ten Catholic Teachings Santorum Rejects while Obsessing about Birth Control http://www.juancole.com/2012/02/top-ten-catholic-teachings-santorum-rejects- while-obsessing-about-birth-control.html Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From sjziobro at cs.com Mon Feb 13 19:10:02 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 21:10:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads--a WIDER view In-Reply-To: <003901cceab6$9a7702e0$cf6508a0$@spro.net> References: <000c01cce9e1$67e9a2e0$37bce8a0$@spro.net><8CEB8C79519F5A5-1A90-161A2@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <003901cceab6$9a7702e0$cf6508a0$@spro.net> Message-ID: <8CEB8D4E387B4F9-1A90-16923@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> It isn't a matter of succumbing to Catholic dogma, but simply a matter of recognizing what constitutes actual, binding teaching on Catholics so that one may rightly judge whether or not Santorum is a faithful Catholic. This seems reasonable, intellectually honest, and required in light of the fact that Prof. Cole rather arbitrarily claims as de fidei what in fact is not. Whether you agree with any particular faith tradition, aren't you, as a rigorous scholar, nonetheless concerned with properly delimiting what adherents of that tradition consider seminal? Regards, Stan -----Original Message----- From: Jo To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Sent: Mon, Feb 13, 2012 8:19 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] FW: Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads--a WIDER view Well-- I strongly suspect that non-Catholics aren't ready to succumb to the dogmatic technicalities espoused by the Roman church. Only the true believers in Catholic dogma and official hermeneutics would be bothered by such distinctions. Reminds me of the dogmatic insistence on caste parameters and claims of transcendental purity and eternality of the highest Brahmanical shastric rulings in India. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of sjziobro at cs.com Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 5:35 PM To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] FW: Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads--a WIDER view Joanna, This is an interesting site in many aspects. Cole noted nothing that is binding on the consciences of Catholics, and so Ric Santorum cannot, with intellectual honesty, be conceived of as rejecting what is de fidei, that is, doctrines that require of Catholics the assent of faith. What Cole illustrates, however, is the attempt of the American Catholic bishops to utilize principles from the Church's social teaching, beginning with Leo XIII's encyclical on capital and labor, Rerum Novarum, which he issued in May of 1891. Context here is important, because Catholic social teaching is highly suspicious of State intrusion and control in the various Socialist and Communist variants effectively embraced by the Democratic Party here in the USA. It is also critical of some of what comprises the GOP platform. Regards, Stan -----Original Message----- From: Jo To: Buddha-L Sent: Sun, Feb 12, 2012 6:53 pm Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads--a WIDER view Top Ten Catholic Teachings Santorum Rejects while Obsessing about Birth Control http://www.juancole.com/2012/02/top-ten-catholic-teachings-santorum-rejects- while-obsessing-about-birth-control.html Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Feb 14 15:29:57 2012 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 17:29:57 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Tibet and Peng Liyuan References: <000c01cce9e1$67e9a2e0$37bce8a0$@spro.net> <8CEB8C79519F5A5-1A90-161A2@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <001701cceb68$2e969b50$6602a8c0@Dan> While Chinese Vice President Xi Jinping is visiting Washington, DC, the NYTimes is running a piece -- with video links -- on his wife, Peng Liyuan, a famous Chinese singer (more famous in China than Xi). The 3rd video in particular might be of interest to this list: "In another clip, Ms. Peng sings the "Laundry Song," a traditional song of solidarity between the army and the people and one that is sung by many female Tibetan singers, according to High Peaks Pure Earth, a blog that tracks news from Tibet. In the song, Tibetans express gratitude for the Chinese army. The current spate of self-immolations by Tibetan monks indicates that the relationship is a bit more complicated." The Laundry Song video includes English subtitles, and you have to see them to believe them. Obviously that doesn't auger well for future efforts at Tibetan autonomy. For the rest, and the videos, go to http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/14/chinas-likely-next-first-lady-is-a-famous-singer/?hpw or http://tinyurl.com/7bq5deg Dan From jkirk at spro.net Tue Feb 14 18:37:16 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 18:37:16 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Books for Review In-Reply-To: <53B65922674382468C0C4DBBD1B04F37118375CB@IU-MSSG-MBX102.ads.iu.edu> References: <53B65922674382468C0C4DBBD1B04F37118375CB@IU-MSSG-MBX102.ads.iu.edu> Message-ID: <001301cceb82$59fefa20$0dfcee60$@spro.net> I'm hoping that someone from this list will review this book. I can't-not an east Asia specialist. See the mail below from the Journal of Folklore Research, jfrr (Indiana UP). Escape from Blood Pond Hell: The Tales of Mulian and Woman Huang. Translated by Beata Grant, and Wilt L. Ideama. 2011. Seattle: University of Washington Press. Joanna From: owner-jfrr-l at listserv.indiana.edu [mailto:owner-jfrr-l at listserv.indiana.edu] On Behalf Of JFRR Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 2:55 PM To: jfrr-l at indiana.edu Subject: Books for Review Dear JFRR list subscriber, JFR Reviews has received the following books for review. We invite qualified reviewers to contact us at jfrr at indiana.edu to request any of these titles for review. Reviewers are expected to complete their reviews within ten weeks of receipt of the book and may, of course, keep the copy of the book after the review is complete. If you are interested in any of these titles, please send us your name, academic affiliation, address, and e-mail address. Unless you request otherwise, we will include your e-mail address in the published review. You may identify up to three books you are interested in reviewing. All our reviews are permanently stored on-line at http://www.indiana.edu/%7Ejofr/reviews.php. *********** On Monsters: An Unnatural History of Our Worst Fears By Stephen T. Asma. 2009. Oxford: Oxford University Press. Island Songs: A Global Repertoire Edited by Godfrey Baldacchino. 2011. Lanham: Scarecrow Press and The Children's Literature Association. Phantom Past, Indigenous Presence Edited by Colleen E. Boyd and Coll Thrush. 2011. Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press. Devoted to Death: Santa Muerte, the Skeleton Saint By R. Andrew Chesnut. 2012. New York: Oxford University Press. Marks of an Absolute Witch: Evidentiary Dilemmas in Early Modern England By Orna Alyagon Darr. 2011. Ashgate Publishing. Guilty Males and Proud Females: Negotiating Genders in a Bengali Festival By Fabrizio M. Ferrari. 2011. Calcutta: Seagull Books. Witches, Whores, and Sorcerors: The Concept of Evil in Early Iran By S. K. Mendoza Forrest. 2011. Austin: University of Texas Press. Ballads and Broadsides in Britain, 1500-1800 By Patricia Fumerton and Anita Guerrini, with Kris McAbee. 2011. Ashgate Publishing. Anthropology and Egalitarianism: Ethnographic Encounters from Monticello to Guinea-Bissau By Eric Gable. 2010. Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press. Readings on Rhetoric and Performance By Stephen Olbrys Gencarella and Phaedra C. Pezzullo. 2010. State College, PA: Strata Publishing. Escape from Blood Pond Hell: The Tales of Mulian and Woman Huang Translated by Beata Grant, and Wilt L. Ideama. 2011. Seattle: University of Washington Press. Varieties of Narrative Analysis Edited by James A. Holstein and Jaber F. Gubrium. 2011. Sage Publications. Always for the Underdog: Leather Britches Smith and the Grabow War (Texas Folklore Society Extra Book Number 23) By Keagan LeJeune. 2010. Denton: University of North Texas Press. Folks Are Talking: Oral Histories From the 1970s [Audio CD] Performed by Garret Mathews. 2011. People of the Rainbow: A Nomadic Utopia, Second Edition By Michael I. Niman. 2011. Knoxville: University of Tennessee Press. Lessons from a Quechua Strongwoman: Ideophony, Dialogue and Perspective (First Peoples: New Directions in Indigenous Studies) By Janis B. Nuckolls. 2010. Tucson: University of Arizona Press. Casa Boholana: Vintage Houses of Bohol By Czarina Saloma and Erik Akpedonu. 2011. Manila: Ateneo de Manila University Press. Antipodean Traditions: Australian Folklore in the 21st Century Edited by Graham Seal and Jennifer Gall. 2011. Perth: Black Swan Press. Hidden Rituals and Public Performances: Traditions and Belonging among the Post-Soviet Khanty, Komi and Udmurts (Studia Fennica Folkloristica 19) By Anna-Leena Siikala and Oleg Uliashev. 2011. Helsinki: Finnish Literature Society. Living Folklore: An Introduction to the Study of People and Their Traditions, Second Edition By Martha Sims and Martine Stephens. 2011. Logan: Utah State University Press. Haunted Southern Tier By Elizabeth Tucker. 2011. Charleston: History Press. Hide, Horn, Fish, and Fowl: Texas Hunting and Fishing Lore Edited by Kenneth L. Untiedt. 2011. Denton: University of North Texas Press. The Reformation of the Landscape: Religion, Identity and Memory in Early Modern Britain and Ireland By Alexandra Walsham. 2011. Oxford: Oxford University Press. From jkirk at spro.net Tue Feb 14 19:07:36 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 19:07:36 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Tibet and Peng Liyuan In-Reply-To: <001701cceb68$2e969b50$6602a8c0@Dan> References: <000c01cce9e1$67e9a2e0$37bce8a0$@spro.net> <8CEB8C79519F5A5-1A90-161A2@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <001701cceb68$2e969b50$6602a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <001201cceb86$96cc53e0$c464fba0$@spro.net> The Laundry Song video includes English subtitles, and you have to see them to believe them. Obviously that doesn't auger well for future efforts at Tibetan autonomy. For the rest, and the videos, go to http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/14/chinas-likely-next-first-lady-is -a-famous-singer/?hpw or http://tinyurl.com/7bq5deg Dan _______________________ Now the Tibetan singers will need to learn a new laundry song: I've gotta wash that [gal] right out of my hair..........." Joanna From chris.fynn at gmail.com Wed Feb 15 22:31:34 2012 From: chris.fynn at gmail.com (Christopher Fynn) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 11:31:34 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left In-Reply-To: <54D83C68-C1AB-4515-B3C4-79EAC66ED2D9@unm.edu> References: <004801cce8f7$00020400$00060c00$@spro.net> <8CEB7108174F50E-1A90-8E20@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <54D83C68-C1AB-4515-B3C4-79EAC66ED2D9@unm.edu> Message-ID: On 12/02/2012, Richard Hayes wrote: > First of all, the words Right and Left have become utterly meaningless. They > are words so carelessly tossed around that have have lost all ability to > communicate. > That said, I think you have sliced this pie awkwardly, Dr Ziobro. I think > few intelligent people of any persuasion characterize people who disagree > with them as evil, simply because that is not a very intelligent thing to > do. In my experience, no group of people has a monopoly on fallacious > argumentation, and no group is the sole proprietor of good reasoning, and > the distribution of good and bad reasoning is pretty even across all social > and political categories. My guess the same is true among angels, dogs and > cockroaches. > Richard Hayes > mediocre crackpot Cockroaches have been around far longer than humans, and almost certainly will be around long after the last one of us is extinct ~ especially if the views of creationists, climate change deniers, and right wing talk-show hosts and bloggers prevail. I'm sure it could be reasonably argued that cockroaches are smarter than many Republicans. From jkirk at spro.net Wed Feb 15 23:30:37 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 23:30:37 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left In-Reply-To: References: <004801cce8f7$00020400$00060c00$@spro.net> <8CEB7108174F50E-1A90-8E20@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <54D83C68-C1AB-4515-B3C4-79EAC66ED2D9@unm.edu> Message-ID: <001801ccec74$7f55e980$7e01bc80$@spro.net> Cockroaches have been around far longer than humans, and almost certainly will be around long after the last one of us is extinct ~ especially if the views of creationists, climate change deniers, and right wing talk-show hosts and bloggers prevail. I'm sure it could be reasonably argued that cockroaches are smarter than many Republicans. ------------------------------------ Thanks! I'll go for that perspective. Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Wed Feb 15 23:34:57 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 23:34:57 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left References: <004801cce8f7$00020400$00060c00$@spro.net> <8CEB7108174F50E-1A90-8E20@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <54D83C68-C1AB-4515-B3C4-79EAC66ED2D9@unm.edu> Message-ID: <001901ccec75$1a276560$4e763020$@spro.net> Cockroaches have been around far longer than humans, and almost certainly will be around long after the last one of us is extinct ~ especially if the views of creationists, climate change deniers, and right wing talk-show hosts and bloggers prevail. I'm sure it could be reasonably argued that cockroaches are smarter than many Republicans. ------------------------------------ Thanks! I'll go for that perspective. Joanna ------------------ PS:: no sooner said than done? " Leak Offers Glimpse of Campaign Against Climate Science" http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/16/science/earth/in-heartland-institute-leak- a-plan-to-discredit-climate-teaching.html?_r=1&emc=eta1 Or http://tinyurl.com/6vfqkz8 Joanna K. From sjziobro at cs.com Thu Feb 16 11:03:14 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 13:03:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left In-Reply-To: <001901ccec75$1a276560$4e763020$@spro.net> References: <004801cce8f7$00020400$00060c00$@spro.net> <8CEB7108174F50E-1A90-8E20@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <54D83C68-C1AB-4515-B3C4-79EAC66ED2D9@unm.edu> <001901ccec75$1a276560$4e763020$@spro.net> Message-ID: <8CEBAEC630992DD-DFC-4681@webmail-d148.sysops.aol.com> Well, it's encouraging to see such a high level of discourse here. Stan -----Original Message----- From: Jo To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Sent: Thu, Feb 16, 2012 1:35 am Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads, Enabled by a Too-Polite Left Cockroaches have been around far longer than humans, and almost certainly ill be around long after the last one of us is extinct ~ especially if the iews of creationists, climate change deniers, and right wing talk-show osts and bloggers prevail. I'm sure it could be reasonably argued that ockroaches are smarter than many Republicans. ----------------------------------- Thanks! I'll go for that perspective. oanna ------------------ S:: no sooner said than done? Leak Offers Glimpse of Campaign Against Climate Science" http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/16/science/earth/in-heartland-institute-leak- -plan-to-discredit-climate-teaching.html?_r=1&emc=eta1 Or http://tinyurl.com/6vfqkz8 Joanna K. _______________________________________________ uddha-l mailing list uddha-l at mailman.swcp.com ttp://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From chris.fynn at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 02:01:36 2012 From: chris.fynn at gmail.com (Christopher Fynn) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 15:01:36 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] on anicca, Omar Khayyam style In-Reply-To: <005601cce8f9$dcbfa670$963ef350$@spro.net> References: <005601cce8f9$dcbfa670$963ef350$@spro.net> Message-ID: Buddhism & Persian poetry: "The many Buddhist references in the Persian literature of the period also provide evidence of this Islamic-Buddhist cultural contact. Persian poetry, for example, often used the simile for palaces that they were ?as beautiful as a Nowbahar (Nava Vihara).? Further, at Nava Vihara and Bamiyan, Buddha images, particularly of Maitreya, the future Buddha, had moon discs behind their heads. This led to the poetic depiction of pure beauty as someone having ?the moon-shaped face of a Buddha.? Thus, eleventh-century Persian poems, such as Varqe and Golshah by Ayyuqi, use the word bot with a positive connotation for ?Buddha,? not with its second, derogatory meaning as ?idol.? It implies the ideal of asexual beauty in both men and women. Such references indicate that either Buddhist monasteries and images were present in these Iranian cultural areas at least through the early Mongol period in the thirteenth century or, at minimum, that a strong Buddhist legacy remained for centuries among the Buddhist converts there to Islam" On 12/02/2012, Jo wrote: > Even though I am so precious > > And beautiful, like a crystal, or a tulip, > > Or a pine tree so green and tall-- > > I cannot understand why the creator > > Made me so precious, yet > > After all that work, the potter breaks me down > > And finishes me off. > > > > (The term potter translates literally as 'jug maker') > > > > (I guess if one imbibes the way Omar did, one does tend to > > overrate one's beauty. But language aside, he knew we are > > all self-attached. This reminds me of the oft-stated Tibetan > > Buddhist phrase, a human life is precious.) > > Edited, so to speak, from a translation of the original by an > > Iranian friend. > > Joanna > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Fri Feb 17 22:18:36 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 22:18:36 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] on anicca, Omar Khayyam style In-Reply-To: References: <005601cce8f9$dcbfa670$963ef350$@spro.net> Message-ID: <00fd01ccedfc$c46ab210$4d401630$@spro.net> Chris, thanks for reminding us of Berzin. His pages are always worth re-reading. Speaking of Nishapur: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/nish/hd_nish.htm .............The evidence from the excavations also revealed much about the development of architectural decoration in northeastern Iran. Walls in residences and public buildings throughout Nishapur were decorated in many different ways, from frescoes to carved and painted stucco, terracotta panels to glazed ceramic tiles. The range of imagery was also wide, including geometric and vegetal patterns, calligraphy, figures, and animals. The refined tradition of wall painting shows links with the earlier history of the region, such as Buddhist paintings in Central Asia and Sasanian paintings in Iran......... Joanna ----------------------------- On Behalf Of Christopher Fynn Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:02 AM Buddhism & Persian poetry: "The many Buddhist references in the Persian literature of the period also provide evidence of this Islamic-Buddhist cultural contact. Persian poetry, for example, often used the simile for palaces that they were ?as beautiful as a Nowbahar (Nava Vihara).? Further, at Nava Vihara and Bamiyan, Buddha images, particularly of Maitreya, the future Buddha, had moon discs behind their heads. This led to the poetic depiction of pure beauty as someone having ?the moon-shaped face of a Buddha.? Thus, eleventh-century Persian poems, such as Varqe and Golshah by Ayyuqi, use the word bot with a positive connotation for ?Buddha,? not with its second, derogatory meaning as ?idol.? It implies the ideal of asexual beauty in both men and women. Such references indicate that either Buddhist monasteries and images were present in these Iranian cultural areas at least through the early Mongol period in the thirteenth century or, at minimum, that a strong Buddhist legacy remained for centuries among the Buddhist converts there to Islam" On 12/02/2012, Jo wrote: > Even though I am so precious >And beautiful, like a crystal, or a tulip, > Or a pine tree so green and tall-- > I cannot understand why the creator > Made me so precious, yet >After all that work, the potter breaks me down >And finishes me off. > > (The term potter translates literally as 'jug maker') > > (I guess if one imbibes the way Omar did, one does tend to >overrate one's beauty. But language aside, he knew we are >all self-attached. This reminds me of the oft-stated Tibetan >Buddhist phrase, a human life is precious.) >Edited, so to speak, from a translation of the original by an >Iranian friend. > > Joanna From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Feb 18 10:50:10 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 10:50:10 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In-Reply-To: <8CEB7D8782EA1D1-1A90-CBBF@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CEB7C2753C8D15-1A90-BF48@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <580CD56C-3B74-4CD1-9DD0-D8A7E130F5DD@unm.edu> <8CEB7D8782EA1D1-1A90-CBBF@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Feb 12, 2012, at 13:03 , SJZiobro at cs.com wrote: > there is absolutely no guarantee that a State is enlightened and benevolent. Similarly, there is absolutely no guarantee that a religious body is enlightened and benevolent. I submit the entirely of recorded history as my evidence of that. Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From sjziobro at cs.com Sat Feb 18 10:54:33 2012 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 12:54:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In-Reply-To: References: <8CEB7C2753C8D15-1A90-BF48@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com><580CD56C-3B74-4CD1-9DD0-D8A7E130F5DD@unm.edu><8CEB7D8782EA1D1-1A90-CBBF@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CEBC7D81587F0C-C5C-374A9@webmail-m063.sysops.aol.com> Sure, look at the State under Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. The last I knew millions upon millions died under their respective enlightened and benevolent policies. Stan -----Original Message----- From: Richard Hayes To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Sat, Feb 18, 2012 12:50 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads On Feb 12, 2012, at 13:03 , SJZiobro at cs.com wrote: > there is absolutely no guarantee that a State is enlightened and benevolent. Similarly, there is absolutely no guarantee that a religious body is enlightened nd benevolent. I submit the entirely of recorded history as my evidence of hat. Richard Hayes epartment of Philosophy niversity of New Mexico _______________________________________________ uddha-l mailing list uddha-l at mailman.swcp.com ttp://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Feb 18 11:46:31 2012 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 11:46:31 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In-Reply-To: <8CEBC7D81587F0C-C5C-374A9@webmail-m063.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CEB7C2753C8D15-1A90-BF48@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com><580CD56C-3B74-4CD1-9DD0-D8A7E130F5DD@unm.edu><8CEB7D8782EA1D1-1A90-CBBF@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <8CEBC7D81587F0C-C5C-374A9@webmail-m063.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <34F46881-47CC-4310-83CC-3C8401B72BC0@unm.edu> On Feb 18, 2012, at 10:54 , sjziobro at cs.com wrote: > Sure, look at the State under Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. The last I knew millions upon millions died under their respective enlightened and benevolent policies. And how is that an answer to my observation that there is no guarantee that religious institutions will be enlightened and benevolent? It seems to me that we can pretty safely conclude that when human beings are involved in setting up institutions, whether they be governments or religious institutions, there is not much reason to believe that the results are sure to be enlightened and benevolent. It really makes very little difference what people say they believe or why they say they believe it. If they are human beings, expect greed, hatred and delusion to be the norm. And if they are human beings claiming to be acting on the authority of a higher power, expect greed, hatred and delusion to be the norm, and to be deemed acceptable. Yours in misanthropic secular humanism, Richard Hayes From jehms at xs4all.nl Sat Feb 18 14:01:59 2012 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 22:01:59 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In-Reply-To: <34F46881-47CC-4310-83CC-3C8401B72BC0@unm.edu> References: <8CEB7C2753C8D15-1A90-BF48@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com><580CD56C-3B74-4CD1-9DD0-D8A7E130F5DD@unm.edu><8CEB7D8782EA1D1-1A90-CBBF@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <8CEBC7D81587F0C-C5C-374A9@webmail-m063.sysops.aol.com> <34F46881-47CC-4310-83CC-3C8401B72BC0@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4F4011C7.4060501@xs4all.nl> Op 18-02-12 19:46, Richard Hayes schreef: > On Feb 18, 2012, at 10:54 , sjziobro at cs.com wrote: > >> Sure, look at the State under Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. The last I knew millions upon millions died under their respective enlightened and benevolent policies. > And how is that an answer to my observation that there is no guarantee that religious institutions will be enlightened and benevolent? > > It seems to me that we can pretty safely conclude that when human beings are involved in setting up institutions, whether they be governments or religious institutions, there is not much reason to believe that the results are sure to be enlightened and benevolent. It really makes very little difference what people say they believe or why they say they believe it. If they are human beings, expect greed, hatred and delusion to be the norm. And if they are human beings claiming to be acting on the authority of a higher power, expect greed, hatred and delusion to be the norm, and to be deemed acceptable. > > The examples above are so many instances of firm belief. The more benevolent institutions always come from those who don't believe, but discuss. As Bakhtim has taught us: the good things come from dialogue. erik From jkirk at spro.net Sat Feb 18 18:33:14 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 18:33:14 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Check out The Right's Stupidity Spreads In-Reply-To: <4F4011C7.4060501@xs4all.nl> References: <8CEB7C2753C8D15-1A90-BF48@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com><580CD56C-3B74-4CD1-9DD0-D8A7E130F5DD@unm.edu><8CEB7D8782EA1D1-1A90-CBBF@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <8CEBC7D81587F0C-C5C-374A9@webmail-m063.sysops.aol.com> <34F46881-47CC-4310-83CC-3C8401B72BC0@unm.edu> <4F4011C7.4060501@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <006c01cceea6$7345d540$59d17fc0$@spro.net> > > It seems to me that we can pretty safely conclude that when human beings are involved in setting up institutions, whether they be governments or religious institutions, there is not much reason to believe that the results are sure to be enlightened and benevolent. It really makes very little difference what people say they believe or why they say they believe it. If they are human beings, expect greed, hatred and delusion to be the norm. And if they are human beings claiming to be acting on the authority of a higher power, expect greed, hatred and delusion to be the norm, and to be deemed acceptable. > > The examples above are so many instances of firm belief. The more benevolent institutions always come from those who don't believe, but discuss. As Bakhtim has taught us: the good things come from dialogue. erik ____________________ " As Bakhtin has taught us: the good things come from dialogue." In my country's politics, if only. Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Sun Feb 19 19:24:41 2012 From: jkirk at spro.net (Jo) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 19:24:41 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Zen Buddhist master Thich Nhat Hanh's debut novel. Message-ID: <000c01ccef76$cdab5980$69020c80$@spro.net> http://tinyurl.com/7pefy5p Book review: 'The Novice: A Story of True Love' September 04, 2011|By Thane Rosenbaum, Special to the Los Angeles Times Excerpt: A Vietnamese legend is the root of Zen Buddhist master Thich Nhat Hanh's debut novel. With its gender disguise and message of forgiveness, it may remind readers a bit of 'Yentl' mixed with the Sermon on the Mount. And yet that's what Vietnamese Buddhist Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh has done with his first novel, "The Novice: A Story of True Love." Hanh, who is also a poet and the bestselling author of "Peace Is Every Step," was nominated by the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. in 1967 for a Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts to reconcile the peoples of North and South Vietnam. The true story upon which "The Novice" is based has become part of Vietnamese folklore. Hundreds of years later, Hanh has adapted the legend into a novel. And yet this is a curious adaptation, because the story about a woman who disguises herself as a man to become a monk, suffers enormously but is filled with infinite forgiveness, is very much Thich Nhat Hanh's own story - except for the gender disguise. Kinh Tam is a beautiful young woman who wishes to live the life of a Buddhist monk. At the time, however, there are no roles for women in Buddhism. She ends up as a bride in a loveless marriage with a spineless husband. At one point, his parents falsely accuse her of trying to kill their son. She refuses to admit her guilt and is sent back to her own family in shame. [read on] Posted by Joanna K. From karp at uw.edu.pl Mon Feb 20 04:45:48 2012 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 12:45:48 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sannati Buddhist Site Controversy Message-ID: A Buddhist monk and three Dalit leaders were charged with removing a Hindu idol found at ASI site. <> http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/karnataka/article2907871.ece Regards, Artur Karp Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.) South Asian Studies Dept. University of Warsaw Poland From leigh at deneb.org Tue Feb 21 18:11:49 2012 From: leigh at deneb.org (Leigh Goldstein) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 17:11:49 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Thomas McEvilley the Shape of Ancient Thought Message-ID: <000001ccf0fe$f509ee90$df1dcbb0$@deneb.org> Was there a discussion of this book? (Having trouble accessing archives). From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Feb 22 16:12:34 2012 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 18:12:34 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Tibetan new year, meat dumplings and empowering women References: Message-ID: <058f01ccf1b7$75e67b10$6602a8c0@Dan> Very interesting article from nytimes ostensibly about momos -- dumplings -- but it delves into numerous other issues of Tibetans in exile. Some highlights: == [...] Losar is a holiday built around the comforts of food - and a dietary paradox: Though most Tibetans are Buddhists, who would avoid taking a life, they are also great lovers of meat, and sha momos are the unofficial national dish. The sisters' East Village restaurant, Tsampa, is mostly vegetarian, and serves only vegetable and chicken momos, in deference to the many customers who do not eat red meat. But there are always sha momos lurking off the menu, she said, for the Tibetan regulars who would be aggrieved not to find them. "Here, beef momos are everyday food," she said. "They make Tibetans so happy." The Dalai Lama himself has struggled with adopting a vegetarian diet, which is expected of Buddhist spiritual leaders; many Tibetans will tell you that doctors have advised him to eat meat for health reasons. (The official position is that the kitchens in his residence in Dharamsala, in northern India, are vegetarian, but that the Dalai Lama does eat meat elsewhere.) The tradition of meat-eating is strong because without meat as a source of fat and protein, Tibetans simply could not have survived on their high, cold plateau for centuries, said Ganden Thurman, the executive director of Tibet House, a cultural center in New York City. Also, Mr. Thurman said, there is a practical, Buddhist reason for eating yak instead of, say, rabbit or fish. "The karmic load of killing one rabbit and one yak are the same: one life," he said. "But you can feed a lot more people with a yak." === Time out. This "practical, Buddhist reason" is the equivalent of saying: I could mug some pedestrian walking down the street, but it would be more "practical" and "Buddhist" to exploit an entire country, since many more people on my end would share in the profits. Is this Buddhist ethics? Back to the article: === Yak meat can be lean and tough; wise Tibetan cooks made their sha momos juicier by adding a bit of oil and water to the filling. The trick works in America, too, with chopped beef; yak meat is raised in Colorado and Wyoming and now served at some restaurants in New York, but most places use beef. As steam penetrates the dumplings, the juices, perfumed with onion, cilantro and ginger, liquefy into a hot, savory broth. Momo skins are not very thin, the better to contain that liquid, which surges out on first bite. (Momos can also be fried, but they are not as juicy and satisfying that way.) After sucking out the broth, Tibetans dab sepen, a brick-red chile paste, on a plate, and dip the momos in, holding them with fingertips. Momos can be the prelude to a meal, or the meal itself. "Momos are one of the dishes that taste almost the same in exile as they did in Tibet," said Tsering Dolma, a restaurant worker in the San Francisco Bay area. At first, most remained in India, but the draw of the United States is powerful, especially for women. "Life here is hard, but in India the competition for jobs is impossible," said Norbu L. Lama, a community leader who lives in Woodside, Queens. "One woman can support a whole family here," she added. Traditionally, Tibetan women fed their families while the men tended the animals, but in just a few generations, that has changed. "Tibetan men here are doing a lot of cooking," said Lobsang Wangdu, who lives in the Bay Area and writes a blog about Tibetan food and culture at www.yowangdu.com. Mr. Wangdu said that in his family, momos are not eaten on the first day of Losar, because they look like purses for holding money - and the mind is supposed to focus on purification and family rather than work and financial worries. Fifteen days ago, preparations began for the arrival of the year 2139 (a male water dragon year in Tibetan astrology). In Lhasa and in Delhi, in Minneapolis and in Brooklyn, Tibetans planted barley seeds so that the green shoots would be strong and bright by Wednesday. In Queens, the women began buying up canola oil, used for making deep-fried dough twists called khapse, and brewing beer from rice and barley. "You can have sweet khapse or salty ones - the important thing is to pile them up high to make a magnificent offering," Mrs. Lama said. Khapse are stacked on special altars for the holiday, along with shiny sweets and dried fruit, candles made of butter, and the green barley shoots that represent both new life and the staple grain of Tibet. When they lived as nomads on the high Tibetan plateau, almost one million square miles rimmed by the Himalaya, Kunlun and Qilian mountains, most Tibetans ate a sparse diet: grains and beans; cold-weather vegetables like onions, potatoes and turnips; and meat, butter and cheese from their yak herds. At the eastern border, where Tibet adjoins the Sichuan province of China, chiles and Sichuan peppercorns flavor the dishes; in the West, near India and Nepal, cumin and garam masala. Butter, though, is Tibetans' favorite food, Mrs. Dolma said: "As long as there is butter and tea we can live anywhere." Po cha, a filling and stimulating brew of strong tea, rich butter, milk and salt, is sipped by Tibetans everywhere, at all hours and in all kinds of weather. The New York area is home to the largest Tibetan community in the country, at least 7,000 people, according to the Office of Tibet, in New York. (The office represents the Central Tibetan Administration < http://tibet.net/ >, the self-proclaimed government in exile based in Dharamsala.) Most young Tibetan-Americans here have never seen Tibet, or tasted tea made with dri butter (dri is the term for a female yak), or smelled the herb-scented soups that make up the daily diet in Tibet. But food remains an important unifier for the ones who gather, many sporting signs of rebellion like platinum-bleached braids and skintight hoodies, for momos and Mountain Dew at small restaurants in Queens. (A photographic essay on the Tibetan community in New York, titled "Lhasa on the Hudson," will open on Sunday at the Jacques Marchais Museum of Tibetan Art http://www.tibetanmuseum.org/ , on Staten Island.) At many Tibetan Buddhist temples, this year's Losar celebrations will be sober and limited. About 20 people, most of them young monks and nuns, have burned themselves to death in Tibet in the last year, in resistance to Chinese authority. They are being honored with fasts, demonstrations and prayer vigils. Many of New York's Tibetans live within one subway stop of Jackson Heights, a Queens neighborhood that has long absorbed, and fed, new arrivals to the city. Twenty years ago, Indian and Pakistani sweet shops and snack stalls dominated; then Ecuadorean bakeries and Colombian arepas arrived. Now, many streets are aflutter with Tibetan prayer flags and pictures of the Dalai Lama, the shop windows plastered with ads for necessities like momos, mustard pickle and phone cards for calling relatives dispersed in Nepal, Bhutan and India. go to http://tinyurl.com/72ufyar for the rest, photos and a slideshow === Dan Lusthaus From karp at uw.edu.pl Tue Feb 28 10:15:54 2012 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 18:15:54 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nick Sutton's 1997 paper Message-ID: Dear List Members, Has anyone by chance access to a pdf of Nick Sutton's "Asoka and Yudhishthira: A Historical Setting for the Ideological Tensions of the Mahabharata?" (Religion/Academic Press, vol 27, no.4, pp. 333-341, October 1997)? I would be very grateful for the possibility to get acquainted with it. Artur Karp Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.) South Asian Studies Dept. Oriental Institute University of Warsaw Poland From lidewij at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 10:21:34 2012 From: lidewij at gmail.com (Lidewij Niezink) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 18:21:34 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nick Sutton's 1997 paper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Has anyone by chance access to a pdf of Nick Sutton's "Asoka and > Yudhishthira: A Historical Setting for the Ideological Tensions of the > Mahabharata?" (Religion/Academic Press, vol 27, no.4, pp. 333-341, > October 1997)? > > A quick google deep web search: ancientindia.asia.ubc.ca/pdfs/suttonasokayudhisthira.pdf Long live the internet ;-) -- Dr. Lidewij Niezink http://nl.linkedin.com/in/lniezink Charter for Compassion: http://tinyurl.com/24xxacb Empathy: http://tinyurl.com/2a8qbsz From karp at uw.edu.pl Tue Feb 28 10:39:50 2012 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 18:39:50 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nick Sutton's 1997 paper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Lidewij - a truly prompt pdf (if I may say so), and yes, Long Live! With greetings from snowy Warsaw, Artur Karp