[Buddha-l] Buddhism and Psychology becomes unfalsifiable

[JKirkpatrick]

Hi Bob--I should have clarified---what I'm about to say is not
meant to represent what Freud would or would not do in the
process. I also was not insisting that Freud was "correct" in any
given case or instance. 

What I should have made clear, is that IMHO a
psychotherapist/client experience is (or ought to be) _mutually
constructed_, not an event that warrants the omniscience of the
therapist. That latter view I disavow completely. If the
constructions the two end up with are helpful to the client, and
the client experiences relief from problems, good job. If not,
the client will leave (one hopes) and find another helper.

Thus a therapist, sensing some thoughts the client holds back
from conscious awareness, would work on this in various ways with
the client--language being the only medium for doing this,
obviously (unless one goes for new age stuff like hypnosis and
past life bull)--in hopes of achieving more insight, and also
being willing to discount/drop his or her own sense of something
"repressed" (I really don't care to indulge in neologisms about
what to me is a real phenomenon) if the 'work' doesn't appear to
be getting anywhere. 

The old idea of the therapist being a know-all, always 'correct',
should  be chucked, and as you point out, seems to have already
been dumped by contemporary non-Freudians.

>"My understanding is that the claim that we repress stuff we
find painful is not borne out by contemporary non-Freudian
therapists."

First, I'd say that what I still call 'repression' is not only as
a response to painful stuff but also to traumatic stuff. Shock,
even.  I don't view it the way Freud did. However, I personally
experienced the ability of one's mind/brain/thought process--
whatever--to hold back memory of an event or events from
conscious awareness.  (I won't relate the story, but sexual abuse
was not involved--since of late this is all that's ever talked
about,  that's why I mention it here). IMO repression or whatever
one wants to call it is a real experience. It could be and has
been manipulated to serve unethical ends and/or to satisfy a
shrink's power games, etc. etc. So call it repression--call it
something else--call it unreal--no matter to me. In my view the
'mind' can and does on occasion function in this manner. 

I hope that I've made my slant on this topic clearer, mistaken
though some may claim that it is.
Successful psychotherapy in my view is a mutually worked out
experience, not a bifurcated scenario where the client is
supposed to be a passive receiver of wisdom and analysis and the
therapist is allowed to be an aggressive know-it-all jerk. I also
don't view it as a set of rigid hypotheses to be falsified via
logic, but instead via experience. 

Freud was great because he settled a lot of hash while creating
more of it--he was creative and intuitive even if not always
successful or 'right', he wasn't a god to be worshipped, he left
behind some provocative and IMO provisionally useful ideas about
the way people's thought processes work under conditions that
cause them a lot of suffering. He was also a man of his
historical period, and so did not escape the dominating
tendencies of males of that time, the tendency to disrespect
women unless they were prodigies of some kind, nor did he (and
all the other psychoanalysts) escape the egotism of those whom
society viewed as great in their professions. It was the end of
the Romantic era. Great Men were all the rage. Our historical era
has retained some of the liabilities of his era while overcoming
some of them, as well. 

In tentative conclusion, I wasn't clear that I'm not expressly "a
Freudian" today, although at one time I was, like many others in
my profession (anthropology). I'm a big revisionist of a variety
of analysis programs as they've been handed down in named
lineages of famous men (with maybe a woman here and there),
reminiscent in a way of the lineages of Buddhist mentors. Alas,
this is a discussion that can't be adequately responded to in
brief on an email list. Too bad we can't sit around somewhere,
beers and chips in hand, and have a good-old face to face
talk-fest, sharing our views and working on our disagreements.
That would be a lot of fun.

Cheers to all, this discussion has been a good one so far as
email enables...........
Joanna




Hi Joanna --
Thanks for the response.

The question is: IS THERE REPRESSED MATERIAL at all?
And, if there is, IS it what the therapist believes?
Who can tell if the therapist is correct, except the therapist?

Freud (or the therapist) was the only one who knew or who could
know -- so the patient had no way to disagree with the therapist,
or the therapist's diagnosis. There was no way to show the
therapist was mistaken.


Your remark assumes that Freud was correct, that the person had
genuinely repressed stuff, and the omniscient Freud had divined
this.

My understanding is that the claim that we repress stuff we find
painful is not borne out by contemporary non-Freudian therapists.

The claim seems to be unfalsifiable.
Bob

On 9/6/2010 2:31 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote:
> "If you agree with me, that proves that I (Freud) am right.
> "If you disagree with me, you confirm my theory of resistance,
which 
> proves I'm right."
>
> Agree or disagree, it proves Freud right.
>
> This logic can be used by Freudians to deflect any criticism.
> But of course, it has also removed Freudian theory from any
empirical 
> observations.
>
> Bob
> Dept. of Philosophy
> _____________________
>
> Bob,
> I was under the impression that the way Freud used his notion
of 
> resistance, in therapy, was as an indicator of and guide to
repressed 
> material--ideas/feelings/whatever-- in the analysand, not as a
way to 
> prove himself right in the 'having it both ways'
> mode you presented.
> Seems to me that this oxymoronic claim arose in later
literature 
> written by other therapists and all...popularisers too. It's a
puerile 
> 'gotcha' ploy, not a valuable analytical tool, as I thought was

> Freud's view of it.
>
> Best, Joanna
_______________________________________________
buddha-l mailing list
buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com
http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l