From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat May 1 04:53:56 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 06:53:56 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] MMK 25.09 (was: as Swami goes...) References: <1272466246.2363.4.camel@rhayes-desktop><00fc01cae726$61806b60$2101a8c0@Dan><013a01cae791$6aadce10$2101a8c0@Dan><000601cae7a1$91cc32b0$2101a8c0@Dan><006b01cae7c2$29af33a0$2101a8c0@Dan><009f01cae7cc$b0217dd0$2101a8c0@Dan><00d901cae7da$bd80ebb0$2101a8c0@Dan><011801cae7e7$b3a38460$2101a8c0@Dan><852D71F6-2632-47D0-9280-A07E5A3C1D92@unm.edu><009c01cae89d$c7649e10$2101a8c0@Dan> <7EA95275-2ABE-4094-BE3E-FE7F157DC4CB@unm.edu> Message-ID: <001101cae91c$98eceae0$2101a8c0@Dan> >> Might someone's language subliminally commit them to a svabhavic >> reification without >> their realizing it? > > I don't think so. I do. Here we have a legitimate and deep disagreement. It's your refusal to acknowledge or recognize this basic tenet that I believe clouds your understanding of Nagarjuna and his project. >> If that were not the case, MMK would have been unnecessary. > > I think MMK is unnecessary. It is a putative antidote to an alleged > disease that very few people actually have. Flippant, but Exhibit A nonetheless. > So your claim is that Nagarjuna was unable to free himself from > svabhavic thinking. Good. I think we are finally in agreement. Very funny. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Sat May 1 07:19:27 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 07:19:27 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] MMK 25.09 (was: as Swami goes...) In-Reply-To: <001101cae91c$98eceae0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <1272466246.2363.4.camel@rhayes-desktop><00fc01cae726$61806b60$2101a8c0@Dan><013a01cae791$6aadce10$2101a8c0@Dan><000601cae7a1$91cc32b0$2101a8c0@Dan><006b01cae7c2$29af33a0$2101a8c0@Dan><009f01cae7cc$b0217dd0$2101a8c0@Dan><00d901cae7da$bd80ebb0$2101a8c0@Dan><011801cae7e7$b3a38460$2101a8c0@Dan><852D71F6-2632-47D0-9280-A07E5A3C1D92@unm.edu><009c01cae89d$c7649e10$2101a8c0@Dan> <7EA95275-2ABE-4094-BE3E-FE7F157DC4CB@unm.edu> <001101cae91c$98eceae0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <02EC50EB-3F76-4389-8785-2E3EDEED0A77@unm.edu> On May 1, 2010, at 4:53 AM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Here we have a legitimate and deep disagreement. It's your refusal to > acknowledge or recognize this basic tenet that I believe clouds your > understanding of Nagarjuna and his project. My understanding is not clouded. I don't refuse to acknowledge what N?g?rjuna's project is. I just disagree with it. You are not one of those people who says "If you understood what I'm saying, you'd agree with me", are you? Richard From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat May 1 13:24:04 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 15:24:04 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] MMK 25.09 (was: as Swami goes...) References: <1272466246.2363.4.camel@rhayes-desktop><00fc01cae726$61806b60$2101a8c0@Dan><013a01cae791$6aadce10$2101a8c0@Dan><000601cae7a1$91cc32b0$2101a8c0@Dan><006b01cae7c2$29af33a0$2101a8c0@Dan><009f01cae7cc$b0217dd0$2101a8c0@Dan><00d901cae7da$bd80ebb0$2101a8c0@Dan><011801cae7e7$b3a38460$2101a8c0@Dan><852D71F6-2632-47D0-9280-A07E5A3C1D92@unm.edu><009c01cae89d$c7649e10$2101a8c0@Dan><7EA95275-2ABE-4094-BE3E-FE7F157DC4CB@unm.edu><001101cae91c$98eceae0$2101a8c0@Dan> <02EC50EB-3F76-4389-8785-2E3EDEED0A77@unm.edu> Message-ID: <00de01cae963$dca8bb00$2101a8c0@Dan> > You are not one of those people who says "If you understood what I'm > saying, you'd agree with me", are you? I can't agree with that. Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat May 1 13:24:51 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 15:24:51 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] MMK 25.09 (was: as Swami goes...) References: <1272466246.2363.4.camel@rhayes-desktop><00fc01cae726$61806b60$2101a8c0@Dan><013a01cae791$6aadce10$2101a8c0@Dan><000601cae7a1$91cc32b0$2101a8c0@Dan><006b01cae7c2$29af33a0$2101a8c0@Dan><009f01cae7cc$b0217dd0$2101a8c0@Dan><00d901cae7da$bd80ebb0$2101a8c0@Dan><011801cae7e7$b3a38460$2101a8c0@Dan><852D71F6-2632-47D0-9280-A07E5A3C1D92@unm.edu><009c01cae89d$c7649e10$2101a8c0@Dan><7EA95275-2ABE-4094-BE3E-FE7F157DC4CB@unm.edu><001101cae91c$98eceae0$2101a8c0@Dan> <02EC50EB-3F76-4389-8785-2E3EDEED0A77@unm.edu> Message-ID: <00e101cae963$f8a2bf90$2101a8c0@Dan> > You are not one of those people who says "If you understood what I'm > saying, you'd agree with me", are you? Or do I? Both? Neither? Dan From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 3 19:33:52 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 19:33:52 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Martine Batchelor--4 books so far Message-ID: <0852CE139B044AD2A2DE4BB8B101987F@OPTIPLEX> While some of us have praised Stephen Batchelor's ideas and critiques of Buddhist textual versions of Buddhism as ordinarily known and as practised, his insightful and former Korean Son nun, and later wife Martine Batchelor, and her accomplishments, are rarely noticed on this list. That's a serious lack: she is very worth encountering. I drew on the amazon.com book descriptions here. I plan to add all four of these books to my shelf. Joanna ____________________________________ 1) In _Meditation for Life_, 2001, Martine Batchelor's writing - through a mix of anecdote, humor, and practical instruction - brings to bear her considerable experience as a meditation teacher as she explains the techniques of three major Buddhist traditions: Theravada, Tibetan, and Zen, while Stephen Batchelor's full-color photographs invite even the most seasoned practitioner to see with new eyes. This vividly photographed book encourages us to bring creative awareness to every aspect of our lives - from making conversation to making dinner - and reveals how every moment can be an opportunity to find joy. [I knew Martine had published on meditation, but I never knew until I looked her up on amazon that she has published 4 books already. I'm just reading Stephen's latest book; there I found that he'd made photos for this book by his wife. JK] 2) Then there is _Let Go: A Buddhist Guide to Breaking Free of Habits_, 2007. Right. That one I can specially use. 3) Also, she wrote _Women in Korean Zen: Lives And Practices_. 2006 In this engagingly written account, Martine Batchelor relays the challenges a new ordinand faces in adapting to Buddhist monastic life: the spicy food, the rigorous daily schedule, the distinctive clothes and undergarments, and the cultural misunderstandings inevitable between a French woman and her Korean colleagues. She reveals as well the genuine pleasures that derive from solitude, meditative training, and communion with the deeply religious - whom the Buddhists call "good friends." Batchelor has also recorded the oral history/autobiography of her teacher, the eminent nun Son'gyong Sunim, leader of the Zen meditation hall at Naewonsa. It is a profoundly moving, often light-hearted story that offers insight into the challenges facing a woman on the path to enlightenment at the beginning of the twentieth century. Original English translations of eleven of Son'gyong Sunim's poems on Buddhist themes make a graceful and thought-provoking coda to the two women's narratives. Western readers only familiar with Buddhist ideas of female inferiority will be surprised by the degree of spiritual equality and authority enjoyed by nuns in Korea. While American writings on Buddhism increasingly emphasize the therapeutic, self-help, and comforting aspects of Buddhist thought, Batchelor's text offers a bracing and timely reminder of the strict discipline required in traditional Buddhism. 4) _The Spirit of the Buddha (The Spirit of X)_, 2010. In this slim, enlightening volume, internationally recognized Buddhist teacher Martine Batchelor presents the basic tenets and teachings of the Buddha through a selection of essential texts from the Pali canon, the earliest Buddhist scriptures. ---------------- Stephen in his most recent book, _Confession of a Buddhist Atheist_, makes a huge and welcome point about rendering the accumulated later additions from the Pali texts. ("Rendering" here evokes rendering fat from flesh. My grandma did it when she prepared to make chicken fat cookies). I've not seen this book, but I suspect it follows the same motive. Best wishes, Joanna From gary.gach at gmail.com Tue May 4 10:13:04 2010 From: gary.gach at gmail.com (Gary Gach) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 09:13:04 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] world text Message-ID: might any savant here be so kind as to point towards any citations for "world text" ? as i find referenced in wikipedia, as follows "Two images are used to convey this idea (interpenetration). The first is > known as Indra's net . The net > is set with jewels which have the extraordinary property that they reflect > all of the other jewels. The second image is that of the world text. This > image portrays the world as consisting of an enormous text which is as > large as the universe itself. The words of the text are composed of the > phenomena that make up the world. However, every atom of the world contains > the whole text within it. It is the work of a Buddha to let out the text so > that beings can be liberated from suffering." thank you gary gach palms joined _/|\_ From curt at cola.iges.org Tue May 4 12:03:47 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 14:03:47 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Martine Batchelor--4 books so far In-Reply-To: <0852CE139B044AD2A2DE4BB8B101987F@OPTIPLEX> References: <0852CE139B044AD2A2DE4BB8B101987F@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <4BE06183.3010109@cola.iges.org> I actually own multiple copies of both her "Principles of Zen" and her "Women on the Buddhist Path", which I lend out to people. Her "Women In Korean Zen" is an extraordinary book. It is truly one of the great masterworks of spiritual biography -- ever. Curt JKirkpatrick wrote: > While some of us have praised Stephen Batchelor's ideas and > critiques of Buddhist textual versions of Buddhism as ordinarily > known and as practised, his insightful and former Korean Son nun, > and later wife Martine Batchelor, and her accomplishments, are > rarely noticed on this list. > > That's a serious lack: she is very worth encountering. I drew on > the amazon.com book descriptions here. I plan to add all four of > these books to my shelf. > Joanna > From richard.nance at gmail.com Tue May 4 13:11:46 2010 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 15:11:46 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] world text In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Gary Gach wrote: > might any savant here be so kind as to point towards any citations > for "world text" ? One place to start is Luis O. G?mez, "The Whole Universe as a S?tra," in _Buddhism in Practice_, ed. Donald Lopez (Princeton University Press, 1995): 107-112. Best, R. Nance Indiana From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed May 5 12:39:58 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 20:39:58 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Taoism and Lotus Sutra In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE1BB7E.7090207@xs4all.nl> / I visited the exhibition on Taoism in the Grand Palais in Paris today. It was very nice. I overheard a tourleader say that only when the Lotus S?tra was introduced in China the Taoists realised their iconography couldn't compete with the Buddhist one and started to make up for it. This would explain the strong resemblance of many Taoist pictures of Saints with Buddhist pictures of bodhisattvas. Comments anyone? erik / From bathieme at hotmail.com Wed May 5 16:49:06 2010 From: bathieme at hotmail.com (Barnaby Thieme) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 15:49:06 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Taoism and Lotus Sutra In-Reply-To: <4BE1BB7E.7090207@xs4all.nl> References: , <4BE1BB7E.7090207@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > I overheard a tourleader say that only when the Lotus > S?tra was introduced in China the Taoists realised their iconography > couldn't compete with the Buddhist one and started to make up for it. I'd be curious to know what evidence for this would look like. Barnaby~ _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From rhayes at unm.edu Wed May 5 17:13:59 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 17:13:59 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Taoism and Lotus Sutra In-Reply-To: References: , <4BE1BB7E.7090207@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1273101239.19038.1.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Wed, 2010-05-05 at 15:49 -0700, Barnaby Thieme wrote: > > I overheard a tourleader say that only when the Lotus > > S?tra was introduced in China the Taoists realised their iconography > > couldn't compete with the Buddhist one and started to make up for it. > > I'd be curious to know what evidence for this would look like. My guess is that one must be a tour guide in a museum in Paris to follow the logic. -- Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy From jkirk at spro.net Wed May 5 18:15:29 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:15:29 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Taoism and Lotus Sutra In-Reply-To: <4BE1BB7E.7090207@xs4all.nl> References: <4BE1BB7E.7090207@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <8171D4E42C95446796113EE3A89AD867@OPTIPLEX> The issue would be, for a start, what did the illustrations of Taoist saints look like before the Lotus Sutra made its appearance? Joanna / I visited the exhibition on Taoism in the Grand Palais in Paris today. It was very nice. I overheard a tourleader say that only when the Lotus S?tra was introduced in China the Taoists realised their iconography couldn't compete with the Buddhist one and started to make up for it. This would explain the strong resemblance of many Taoist pictures of Saints with Buddhist pictures of bodhisattvas. Comments anyone? erik / _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Wed May 5 22:19:14 2010 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 12:19:14 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aura and after-image In-Reply-To: References: , <4BE1BB7E.7090207@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <91665D4FA40246748E757401889A7770@comp.nus.edu.sg> Question: In the Vannupatha-jataka ("The sandy road jataka" translation by Caroline A.F. Rhys Davids), the second para has this statement: "But he was unable to bring forth either aura or after-image." What are the original Pali words for "aura" and "after-image"? Is this connected to the current buzzword "nimitta" in meditation. And on the subject of nimitta, some says "the Buddha never talked about nimitta as it is used today in the context of meditation, it was solely invented by Buddhaghosa in the Visuddhimagga". True or false? W.F. Wong From joy.vriens at gmail.com Thu May 6 00:13:30 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 08:13:30 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Taoism and Lotus Sutra In-Reply-To: <4BE1BB7E.7090207@xs4all.nl> References: <4BE1BB7E.7090207@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Hi Eric, The only thing this makes me think of is the portrayal of the sixteen arhats (in Tibetan representations), the eighteen arhats (lohan) in Chinese and the sixteen arhats (rakan) in Japanese representations. I have always loved those representations of unworldly arhats, but thought them to be more Taoistish than Buddhist.I have once seen a Tibetan painting of one them eating a rock, suggesting some sort of rasayana. But this would rather make a case of Buddhists making their saints look like Taoists .... ? Joy On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:39 PM, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > / I visited the exhibition on Taoism in the Grand Palais in Paris today. > It was very nice. I overheard a tourleader say that only when the Lotus > S?tra was introduced in China the Taoists realised their iconography > couldn't compete with the Buddhist one and started to make up for it. > This would explain the strong resemblance of many Taoist pictures of > Saints with Buddhist pictures of bodhisattvas. > Comments anyone? > > erik > / > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu May 6 00:48:19 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 02:48:19 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Taoism and Lotus Sutra References: <4BE1BB7E.7090207@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <01f001caece8$1d5555a0$2101a8c0@Dan> Erik, Until recently the French (and the Japanese) have led the world in scholarship on Daoism (the Americans have made strides and are starting to surpass them on several fronts), but, in general, there is a great deal more known about Daoism by the average literate French reader -- since some of the leading scholars wrote books aimed at popular audiences, while presenting groundbreaking studies -- than by others. As for the specific claims, some may wish to put the Lotus in that privileged position, but that would only be a metonymy for the cultural developments that transpired from roughly the third century until the early Tang (7th c), namely the impact of Buddhist meditation techniques, how-to manuals, cosmology, and pantheon on the native Chinese traditions. Using the word "saints" for Daoist adepts is problematic, at least in English, but in French, with its Catholic background, it may be unavoidable without extra effort. Daoism absorbed a great deal of Buddhism into itself, but often with a twist, changing the meaning. E.g., one of the early Chinese transcriptions for Nirvana got converted into an important sacred place in the brain inhabited by deities; the Heaven of the Thirty-three gods -- already important in the early Pali texts -- becomes a staple of Daoist cosmology as well, though they imagine them differently. And so on. Since you were in a museum, this assimiliation was being expressed in terms of art and pictures. The Silk Road had a profound effect on Chinese culture and arts, music, sculpture, architecture, as well pictorial arts. And Buddhism was part of that. Representations of the Lotus Sutra pantheon, that one can find in Central Asia and western China (E.g., the Dunhuang caves), as well as Avatamsaka pantheons, etc., did play a role in Chinese and E. Asian art, and does have an impact on Daoist art as well. So, aside from perhaps downplaying slightly the idea that the Lotus played a central role, the rest of what the guide said is quite true. One of the best overviews of Daoist art is Taoism and the Arts of China, written by Stephen Little with Shawn Eichman and others, published by The Art Institute of Chicago in association with the University of California Press which was the catalogue for an exhibition some years ago at the Art Institute of Chicago. The website from the exhibit is still online, so you can explore it, and e.g., compare the early Tang statue of Laozi http://www.artic.edu/taoism/church/d41.php with comparable Buddhist sculptures of the period. The main gateway to the site is http://www.artic.edu/taoism/menu.php Happy exploration. Dan From jmp at peavler.org Thu May 6 09:59:11 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:59:11 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Taoism and Lotus Sutra In-Reply-To: <1273101239.19038.1.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: , <4BE1BB7E.7090207@xs4all.nl> <1273101239.19038.1.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <8A757194-C7CB-4696-99A4-1A255688650C@peavler.org> On May 5, 2010, at 5:13 PM, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > > My guess is that one must be a tour guide in a museum in Paris to follow > the logic. It's not nice to say naughty things about museum tour guides. Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org http://www.peavler.org/arguendo "When the experts are agreed, the opposite opinion cannot be held to be certain; "When [they] are not agreed, no opinion can be regarded as certain by a non-expert; "When they all hold no sufficient grounds for a positive opinion to exist, the ordinary man would do well to suspend his judgement." Bertrand Russell. From rhayes at unm.edu Thu May 6 10:24:04 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 10:24:04 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Taoism and Lotus Sutra In-Reply-To: <8A757194-C7CB-4696-99A4-1A255688650C@peavler.org> References: , <4BE1BB7E.7090207@xs4all.nl> <1273101239.19038.1.camel@rhayes-desktop> <8A757194-C7CB-4696-99A4-1A255688650C@peavler.org> Message-ID: On May 6, 2010, at 9:59 AM, Jim Peavler wrote: > It's not nice to say naughty things about museum tour guides. I hope everyone understood that my remark was not about ALL museum tour guides, but specifically about French museum tour guides. There is all the difference in the world between a tour guide at, say, Le Mus?e Guimet and a tour guide at the Albuquerque Museum of Natural History and Science. The former might talk about the influence of the Lotus Sutra on Daoist art, while the latter might talk about the subtle differences in the dentation of a coyote and a wolf. In short, the former would talk about useless and frivolous things, while the latter would talk about things of great importance (to a prairie dog, at least). Richard From bshmr at aol.com Thu May 6 12:25:00 2010 From: bshmr at aol.com (R B Basham) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 12:25:00 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist Peacemaker Team Message-ID: <1273170300.4920.16.camel@aims110> Denizens and Knots, This interesting (to me) CPT update arrived this afternoon: "?http://www.cpt.org/cptnet/2010/05/06/thailand-letter-day-buddhist-peacemaker-team-camp" Much of the Thai context was new to me as Occidental media seems to skimp on non-dominionists as well as alien 'crisis' (in contrast to merely identifying the lead-story of the USAn day). Richard Basham From jkirk at spro.net Thu May 6 13:49:36 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 13:49:36 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aura and after-image In-Reply-To: <91665D4FA40246748E757401889A7770@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: , <4BE1BB7E.7090207@xs4all.nl> <91665D4FA40246748E757401889A7770@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <22365DE019E64743873CB892C7499651@OPTIPLEX> Hi Weng Fai, Please inform me about use of nimitta in meditation--what exactly is one doing if using it? Thanks Joanna ============ Question: In the Vannupatha-jataka ("The sandy road jataka" translation by Caroline A.F. Rhys Davids), the second para has this statement: "But he was unable to bring forth either aura or after-image." What are the original Pali words for "aura" and "after-image"? Is this connected to the current buzzword "nimitta" in meditation. And on the subject of nimitta, some says "the Buddha never talked about nimitta as it is used today in the context of meditation, it was solely invented by Buddhaghosa in the Visuddhimagga". True or false? W.F. Wong _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From Jackhat1 at aol.com Thu May 6 14:02:48 2010 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 16:02:48 EDT Subject: [Buddha-l] Aura and after-image Message-ID: <5e161.7d1ce718.39147a68@aol.com> In a message dated 5/6/2010 2:49:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jkirk at spro.net writes: Hi Weng Fai, Please inform me about use of nimitta in meditation--what exactly is one doing if using it? Thanks Joanna ============ I'm not Weng Fai but in deep concentration the object of meditation might drop away and a sign might replace it. For instance,the Visud.says a small light might appear. Then one can learn to manipulate this light. Make it smaller or larger, for example. My understanding is that nimitta means "the sign of". Jack Question: In the Vannupatha-jataka ("The sandy road jataka" translation by Caroline A.F. Rhys Davids), the second para has this statement: "But he was unable to bring forth either aura or after-image." What are the original Pali words for "aura" and "after-image"? Is this connected to the current buzzword "nimitta" in meditation. And on the subject of nimitta, some says "the Buddha never talked about nimitta as it is used today in the context of meditation, it was solely invented by Buddhaghosa in the Visuddhimagga". True or false? W.F. Wong From selwyn at ntlworld.com Thu May 6 15:23:11 2010 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 22:23:11 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aura and after-image In-Reply-To: <91665D4FA40246748E757401889A7770@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: , <4BE1BB7E.7090207@xs4all.nl> <91665D4FA40246748E757401889A7770@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <4BE3333F.6020300@ntlworld.com> Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > Question: > > In the Vannupatha-jataka ("The sandy road jataka" translation by Caroline > A.F. Rhys Davids), the second para has this statement: > > "But he was unable to bring forth either aura or after-image." > > What are the original Pali words for "aura" and "after-image"? Is this > connected to the current buzzword "nimitta" in meditation. > The two words here are obh?sa and nimitta i.e. some kind of generalized light or a specific form. We should note that this is in the J?taka commentary not in the canonical J?taka itself. > And on the subject of nimitta, some says "the Buddha never talked about > nimitta as it is used today in the context of meditation, it was solely > invented by Buddhaghosa in the Visuddhimagga". True or false. > It is more complicated than just 'true or false'. There are Sutta references to a or the nimitta of concentration or of peace. It is not clear whether this means the same as the later idea. In any case, it was certainly not invented by Buddhaghosa. It is found for example in the Vimuttimagga of Upatissa, a work which is almost certainly older than the time of Buddhaghosa. We can be reasonably certain that it was inherited by Buddhaghosa from the earlier Ceylon commentaries. In fact, it is probably older than that. The canonical Abhidhamma works do clearly indicate that the object of jh?na is conceptual in some way. Lance Cousins From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Thu May 6 17:54:40 2010 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (wongwf) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 07:54:40 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aura and after-image In-Reply-To: <22365DE019E64743873CB892C7499651@OPTIPLEX> References: , <4BE1BB7E.7090207@xs4all.nl> <91665D4FA40246748E757401889A7770@comp.nus.edu.sg> <22365DE019E64743873CB892C7499651@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <000801caed77$7e617dd0$7b247970$@nus.edu.sg> Best to hear it from an expert: http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books/Ajahn_Brahm_Basic_Method_of_Meditati on.htm Search for the word "nimitta". It is the "signs of concentration". A number of meditators I know, instead of using the breathe etc. would go for nimitta itself. Weng-Fai -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of JKirkpatrick Sent: Friday, 7 May, 2010 3:50 AM To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Aura and after-image Hi Weng Fai, Please inform me about use of nimitta in meditation--what exactly is one doing if using it? Thanks Joanna ============ Question: In the Vannupatha-jataka ("The sandy road jataka" translation by Caroline A.F. Rhys Davids), the second para has this statement: "But he was unable to bring forth either aura or after-image." What are the original Pali words for "aura" and "after-image"? Is this connected to the current buzzword "nimitta" in meditation. And on the subject of nimitta, some says "the Buddha never talked about nimitta as it is used today in the context of meditation, it was solely invented by Buddhaghosa in the Visuddhimagga". True or false? W.F. Wong _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Thu May 6 17:55:42 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 17:55:42 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aura and after-image In-Reply-To: <5e161.7d1ce718.39147a68@aol.com> References: <5e161.7d1ce718.39147a68@aol.com> Message-ID: <1EC680AF4B2B4769BEB59B592D202EB1@OPTIPLEX> Hi Jack Thanx--I also understood that nimiita means simply a "sign" in the semiotic sense Joanna =============================== In a message dated 5/6/2010 2:49:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jkirk at spro.net writes: Hi Weng Fai, Please inform me about use of nimitta in meditation--what exactly is one doing if using it? Thanks Joanna ============ I'm not Weng Fai but in deep concentration the object of meditation might drop away and a sign might replace it. For instance,the Visud.says a small light might appear. Then one can learn to manipulate this light. Make it smaller or larger, for example. My understanding is that nimitta means "the sign of". Jack Question: In the Vannupatha-jataka ("The sandy road jataka" translation by Caroline A.F. Rhys Davids), the second para has this statement: "But he was unable to bring forth either aura or after-image." What are the original Pali words for "aura" and "after-image"? Is this connected to the current buzzword "nimitta" in meditation. And on the subject of nimitta, some says "the Buddha never talked about nimitta as it is used today in the context of meditation, it was solely invented by Buddhaghosa in the Visuddhimagga". True or false? W.F. Wong _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Thu May 6 21:47:13 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 21:47:13 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aura and after-image In-Reply-To: <91665D4FA40246748E757401889A7770@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: , <4BE1BB7E.7090207@xs4all.nl> <91665D4FA40246748E757401889A7770@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: I just came across this page: http://independent.academia.edu/rodopfister/Papers/169266/Phosphe nes-and-Inner-Light-Experiences-in-Medieval-Chinese-Psychophysica l-Techniques-%E2%80%95-A-Preliminary-Exploration Might it help with the topic? Joanna Question: In the Vannupatha-jataka ("The sandy road jataka" translation by Caroline A.F. Rhys Davids), the second para has this statement: "But he was unable to bring forth either aura or after-image." What are the original Pali words for "aura" and "after-image"? Is this connected to the current buzzword "nimitta" in meditation. And on the subject of nimitta, some says "the Buddha never talked about nimitta as it is used today in the context of meditation, it was solely invented by Buddhaghosa in the Visuddhimagga". True or false? W.F. Wong _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Thu May 6 22:22:21 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 22:22:21 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aura and after-image In-Reply-To: References: , <4BE1BB7E.7090207@xs4all.nl><91665D4FA40246748E757401889A7770@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: The link is too large--here's a tinyurl: http://tinyurl.com/35aou8w JK I just came across this page: http://independent.academia.edu/rodopfister/Papers/169266/Phosphe nes-and-Inner-Light-Experiences-in-Medieval-Chinese-Psychophysica l-Techniques-%E2%80%95-A-Preliminary-Exploration Might it help with the topic? Joanna From joy.vriens at gmail.com Thu May 6 23:55:08 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 07:55:08 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Attadiipaa Sutta Message-ID: On the website http://rightmindfulness.wordpress.com, I discovered a translation of the Attadiipaa Sutta I was unfamiliar with. It's the first time I saw "light" used instead of "island". Diipaa seems to mean both light and island, but the translation of island somehow prevails, because of commentaries, perhaps occurrences in a different context where the meaning of island is more appropriate. I have always considered the image of an island in the context of the sutta a bit like the image of a citadel used by Marcus Aurelius. Every commentary on this sutta hastes to add that of course this is not for selfish reasons and that Buddhists, who are sociable citizens like you and me, think like John Donne that "No man is an island." Another similar Buddhist image is that of the solitary rhinoceros, but a rhinoceros apart from being solitary has an enormous carapace and a huge horn on its nose to make it perfectly clear it wants to be left alone. This does do some damage in my fragile mind with its rich imagination to the idea of Buddhist solitariness merely serving the purpose of profound introspective investigation. Moreover, the image of the rhinoceros is specifically used for Paccekabuddhas, not the most sociable buddhists. For me the image of the island and the rhinoceros are linked. Reading this for me new translation was a refreshment and because of my with light or Light inundated Tathagatagarbha background it does seem to make sense. So I would like to know whether regardless of the commentaries, traditions, etc. The Pali does allow the website's translation. Here's the simplified Pali version of the website (beautiful in its simplicity): Atta Dipa Atta Dipa Viharatha Atta Sharana Ananna Sharana Dhamma Dipa Dhamma Sharana Ananna Sharana Here's the translation: Look within! You are the Light itself. Rely on yourself. Do not relay on others. The Dharma is the Light. Rely on the Dharma. Do not relay on anything, Other than the Dharma. Simple as well when one compares it with e.g. Walshe's translation: "Monks, be islands unto yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other. Those who are islands unto themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things." I don't know any Pali and this is a simplified transcription without diacritics, but Dhamma dipa ought to get the same treatment as Atta dipa, which it doesn't in Walshe's translation. I can see that one is one's own light, and that the Dhamma is the light. I have more problems with seeing the Dhamma being an island, without the addition "to you", which is questionable. So I am not sure about the island any more. Could anyone lead me back onto the right path? Joy From jinavamsa at yahoo.com Fri May 7 00:33:45 2010 From: jinavamsa at yahoo.com (Mitchell Ginsberg) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 23:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> hello Joy and all, The Pali diipa can mean, as you point out, either island or lamp (source of light). The Sanskrit has two different words that would each/both correspond to diipa in Pali: dviipa and diipa. The first is said to derive from the root dviipa meaning two waters (dvi = 2 + ap/aapas), and hence island, while the second is associated with the root dii/diip (dviipyate), shine, hence, a lamp. Or so it is said by some. Now, how the phrase shows up in different Sanskrit texts is perhaps the next question. Mitchell ========== Homepage (updated May 3, 2010): http://jinavamsa.com See also http://jinavamsa.com/mentalhealth.html From Jackhat1 at aol.com Fri May 7 08:34:53 2010 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 10:34:53 EDT Subject: [Buddha-l] Aura and after-image Message-ID: In a message dated 5/6/2010 6:55:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jkirk at spro.net writes: Hi Jack Thanx--I also understood that nimiita means simply a "sign" in the semiotic sense Joanna =============================== Joanna, I know what semiotic means but don't understand your use of it above. My reading of the suttas only finds nimitta to mean "sign of" as, for example, subha-nimitta meaning sign of beauty. By the way, some use AN 10.29 _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.029.than.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.029.than.html) as a sutta reference for nimitta. I don't see it. jack jack In a message dated 5/6/2010 2:49:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jkirk at spro.net writes: Hi Weng Fai, Please inform me about use of nimitta in meditation--what exactly is one doing if using it? Thanks Joanna ============ I'm not Weng Fai but in deep concentration the object of meditation might drop away and a sign might replace it. For instance,the Visud.says a small light might appear. Then one can learn to manipulate this light. Make it smaller or larger, for example. My understanding is that nimitta means "the sign of". Jack Question: In the Vannupatha-jataka ("The sandy road jataka" translation by Caroline A.F. Rhys Davids), the second para has this statement: "But he was unable to bring forth either aura or after-image." What are the original Pali words for "aura" and "after-image"? Is this connected to the current buzzword "nimitta" in meditation. And on the subject of nimitta, some says "the Buddha never talked about nimitta as it is used today in the context of meditation, it was solely invented by Buddhaghosa in the Visuddhimagga". True or false? W.F. Wong _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From Jackhat1 at aol.com Fri May 7 08:39:35 2010 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 10:39:35 EDT Subject: [Buddha-l] Aura and after-image Message-ID: <1019e.63bae0a2.39158027@aol.com> In a message dated 5/6/2010 6:55:00 P.M. Central Daylight Time, wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg writes: http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books/Ajahn_Brahm_Basic_Method_of_Meditati on.htm Search for the word "nimitta". It is the "signs of concentration". A number of meditators I know, instead of using the breathe etc. would go for nimitta itself. === I wouldn't read Ajahn Bram's view on nimitta as the final word. Other teachers might have very different views. The meditators I know (including myself) pretty much ignore nimittas. If they arise, we go back to the object of meditation. This goes to show that there are many techniques out that probably have equal claim to validity. jack From drbob at comcast.net Fri May 7 10:12:54 2010 From: drbob at comcast.net (Bob Woolery) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 09:12:54 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aura and after-image In-Reply-To: <1019e.63bae0a2.39158027@aol.com> References: <1019e.63bae0a2.39158027@aol.com> Message-ID: <6ECC3E3B91334031B4E407C204731308@garage> If I am reading this right, the thrust is that concentration is developed by allowing the mind to rest on a single sound, image, idea, etc. One is as good as another, but one only must be chosen, if concentration is the objective. Meditation may or may not be identical to what I am calling concentration, but at the very least, concentration is a prerequisite. Or do I need a glass window around my navel so I can see out? Bob Woolery, DC 326 deAnza dr Vallejo, CA 94589 www.stateoftheartchiro.com (707)557 5471 -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Jackhat1 at aol.com Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 7:40 AM To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Aura and after-image In a message dated 5/6/2010 6:55:00 P.M. Central Daylight Time, wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg writes: http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books/Ajahn_Brahm_Basic_Method_of_Meditati on.htm Search for the word "nimitta". It is the "signs of concentration". A number of meditators I know, instead of using the breathe etc. would go for nimitta itself. === I wouldn't read Ajahn Bram's view on nimitta as the final word. Other teachers might have very different views. The meditators I know (including myself) pretty much ignore nimittas. If they arise, we go back to the object of meditation. This goes to show that there are many techniques out that probably have equal claim to validity. jack _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Fri May 7 12:51:58 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 12:51:58 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aura and after-image In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1B581814764E499DB12AE7448A47D122@OPTIPLEX> I know what semiotic means but don't understand your use of it above. My reading of the suttas only finds nimitta to mean "sign of" as, for example, subha-nimitta meaning sign of beauty. By the way, some use AN 10.29 _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.029.than.ht ml_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.029.than.ht ml) as a sutta reference for nimitta. I don't see it. jack I didn't check that link. However, my use of semiotic was simply to refer to nimitta as a sign (of) rather than as a material object. So using 'nimitta' would simply provide a general abstract term that could denote a functional class of empirical objects (in this context, of enhancing meditation). That's as far as I care to go with this because I'm losing track of the original query's intention, which I thought I'd maybe contribute to with my subsequent post on after-images as here: http://tinyurl.com/35aou8w . Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Fri May 7 13:15:26 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:15:26 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism and Diaspora Conference, May 14-16, University of Toronto Scarborough Message-ID: <4B8215A5DD634B44B87B17CC58CD8957@OPTIPLEX> X-posted. List folks in eastern Canada might want to attend this conference. Sometimes the conference topic occurs on this list. Stephen Batchelor has worked on producing a version of Buddhism based on the Pali texts that he thinks is different from Asian Buddhism, more useful/appropriate for people not reared in an Asian Buddhist culture. This is the leit-motif of his latest book, a provocative work of revision indeed. I was blown over by some of the speculations he came up with, and over-all inspired by his vision for a contemporary Buddhism. Hope a few more list denizens will read the book (Confession of a Buddhist Atheist) so we can discuss it here. Joanna K. _______________________________________________ H-ASIA May 7, 2010 Buddhism and Diaspora Conference, University of Toronto Scarborough, May 14-16, 2010 ***************************************************************** ******* From: Sarah Richardson The Tung Lin Kok Yuen Conference: Buddhism and Diaspora Friday May 14- Sunday May 16, 2010 The University of Toronto Scarborough This international and interdisciplinary conference will examine the role religion, and specifically Buddhism, plays within diasporic communities. Communities like Chinese Buddhists, Tibetans, Newars, Sinhalese, and many others have brought with them, translated, or alternately reformulated specific types of Buddhism as crucial pieces in the ongoing negotiation of their cultural and social identities. In this context, the conference inquires whether there have been or are currently specific ways that Buddhism has answered the challenges, problems, and expectations that accompany displacement and relocation. This conference will question the role diaspora has had in the history and self-perception of Buddhism through the ages, both within Asia and during its more modern spread to other parts of the world. This can prompt us to examine how Buddhism has figured in developing and changing notions related to authenticity, tradition, ethnicity, belonging, nation, and landscape, in the light of displacement, exile, violence, travel, and integration. For schedule details please see: http://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/~humdiv/TLKY/upcomingevents.htm Questions about this event may be sent to: tlkyconf at utsc.utoronto.ca Keynote/Public Lectures (FREE): Two keynote/public lectures will shape this conference, and are free and open to the public. Victor Hori (McGill University): "Western Buddhism: An Ethnic Religion" May 14, 7:00 pm, University of Toronto Scarborough AA112 (Arts & Administration Building) Much of the recent writing on contemporary Buddhism concerns the emerging development of Western Buddhism (also called American Buddhism, Modern Buddhism and New Buddhism). Writers on Western Buddhism emphasize its historical uniqueness and sharply distinguish it from Asian Buddhism (also called Ethnic Buddhism, Traditional Buddhism and Old Buddhism). This keynote address first questions whether Western Buddhism is as historically unique and as sharply different from traditional Asian Buddhism as it claims to be. It further asks what ideological assumptions motivate this vision of Western Buddhism as sharply distinguished from Asian culture and prior Buddhist history. Will Tuladhar-Douglas (University of Aberdeen): "Diaspora Buddhists Under a Scottish Nationalist Government" May 15, 5:00 pm, University of Toronto Scarborough AA112 (Arts & Administration Building) This lecture will examine the interactions between the devolved and now Scottish Nationalist government, new immigrant communities, and the second (or even third-generation) Anglo Buddhist communities of Scotland, exploring this new and genuinely unique adaptation of religion within this fascinating diaspora situation. To register for the Keynote/Public lectures please go to: http://www.aeplive.ca This conference is generously sponsored by an endowment for the advancement of Buddhist studies, made possible by a gift from the Tung Lin Kok Yuen Foundation (Hong Kong) to the University of Toronto Scarborough. Sarah Richardson University of Toronto From joy.vriens at gmail.com Fri May 7 22:33:17 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 06:33:17 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Mitchell, Thanks for confirming this. The meaning of light is more obvious to me, a lot more. If we approach this aphorism with the Tarzan linguistics method ("Me Tarzan, you Jane") or with basic maths, its very obvious that atta and dhamma have the same function and are put on a par. It could be the Buddha (atta) speaking about his ("inner") Buddha. The Buddha is light as the Dhamma is light. The Buddha is the dhamma(kaaya). The Dhamma is Paticcasamupp?da. Hence the Buddha (atta) and the Dhamma and the light that leads us are Paticcasamupp?da. There is no other refuge/light than that. In Tibetan (from a terma found in the shed in my backyard): bdag ni sgron mer gnas pas// bdag la'ang skyabs su song cig // de las skyobs pa gzhan med// dam chos sgron me yin pas// chos la'ang skyabs su song cig // de las skyobs pa gzhan med// Joy On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 8:33 AM, Mitchell Ginsberg wrote: > hello Joy and all, > The Pali diipa can mean, as you point out, either island or lamp (source of light). > The Sanskrit has two different words that would each/both correspond to diipa in Pali: dviipa and diipa. > The first is said to derive from the root dviipa meaning two waters (dvi = 2 + ap/aapas), and hence island, while the second is associated with the root dii/diip (dviipyate), shine, hence, a lamp. > Or so it is said by some. > Now, how the phrase shows up in different Sanskrit texts is perhaps the next question. > Mitchell > ========== > Homepage (updated May 3, 2010): http://jinavamsa.com > See also http://jinavamsa.com/mentalhealth.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Fri May 7 23:45:40 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 23:45:40 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> My two cents on this translation takes a more literary tack. Buddhist canonical literature of the sort under discussion here makes very little use of the term "island" as a social metaphor, far as I've been able to tell. All his life the Buddha strove to keep the sangha together, to keep it working and moving around, teaching and contemplating. Why would he, when dying, decide to nullify his monk collectivity, his new dispensation (a la Stephen Batchellor), even if he felt that things were falling apart, by asking them to become social isolates? I go along with Joy in that the Buddha's monks were certainly a collective bunch of people, with rather few outliers of the type of Mahakashyapa For the Buddha to tell someone to be an island unto himself, instead of a lamp unto himself, has always struck me as absurd, a crudity of translation. In fact, now that I think of it (always dangerous), classical poetics rarely used the term dviipa as a metaphor for anything human, much less the inner life. (According to Monier, dviipa in the MBh also meant place of refuge, shelter , protection or protector. But it was a 'place,' not an inner state.) How could anyone be inspired by imagining themselves as an island, as compared to the image of a lighted lamp?, those small unfired earthen diipas that are found all over India, once used for light at night within a dwelling, probably in a kuti as well. (Today it's candles or electricity.) "Island" for diipa in this context must be an erroneous translation. The term 'atta', in the phrase 'attadiipaa', suggests to me that the Buddha was advising the monks to internalise awareness of the lamp of his teachings, using atta poetically to replace the sense of atta as a 'self' with atta as the site of a deep-felt 'illumination'. Joanna On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 8:33 AM, Mitchell Ginsberg wrote: > hello Joy and all, > The Pali diipa can mean, as you point out, either island or lamp (source of light). > The Sanskrit has two different words that would each/both correspond to diipa in Pali: dviipa and diipa................ From selwyn at ntlworld.com Sat May 8 03:13:57 2010 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 10:13:57 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BE52B55.2010802@ntlworld.com> Mitchell Ginsberg wrote: > hello Joy and all, > The Pali diipa can mean, as you point out, either island or lamp (source of light). > The Sanskrit has two different words that would each/both correspond to diipa in Pali: dviipa and diipa. > The first is said to derive from the root dviipa meaning two waters (dvi = 2 + ap/aapas), and hence island, while the second is associated with the root dii/diip (dviipyate), shine, hence, a lamp. > Or so it is said by some. > Now, how the phrase shows up in different Sanskrit texts is perhaps the next question. That is indeed the next question. In the corresponding Sanskrit version of the Mah?parinirv??as?tra we have dv?pa which means 'island' or 'continent' or 'doab'. (According to commentators, an area of ground which is not submerged by floodwaters coming from two sides.) Similarly when the phrase occurs in the Mah?vastu. So the Sanskrit translators of the earlier Middle Indian agree with the Pali commentators that the word used here had the meaning of Sanskrit dv?pa and not Sanskrit d?pa 'lamp'. Indeed there is no evidence that anyone in India ever intrpreted d?pa in attad?pa as 'lamp' or 'light'. So the explanation in terms of 'lamp' has been rejected for a long while now. That said, the rendering from Middle Indian into Sanskrit may be no older than the Pali commentarial tradition. So we do need to look at the context as well. Lance Cousins From joy.vriens at gmail.com Sat May 8 05:18:24 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 13:18:24 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Hi Joanna, The evidence of the traditional reading given by Lance Cousins seems quite compelling, but the metaphor doesn't work for me. I don't find it convincing at all. E.g. the island as a metaphor for refuge. Especially in the case of a river island amidst two floodwaters. Imagine the water level is rising, a little island is left in the middle which is supposed to serve as a secure refuge? What a strange advice! I would say get away from that river. And a temporary refuge when one is surprised by a sudden waterflood? This temporary refuge being the only refuge? Moreover, the comparison between crossing Samsara and crossing a river? Perhaps an island in the middle of the ocean? With the rising sea level and tsunamis etc.? With no other refuge than that (Ananna Sharana)? Doesn't look very safe to me. Certainly not the first image of a refuge to pop up. A mountain would be more like it, say the summit of Mount Meru. And even then. Why would one pick a metaphor of a geographical item belonging to a planet that one knows will be destroyed, reappear, destroyed again? Light on the other hand... Next the metaphor of Dhamma as an island. Paticcasamupp?da as an island? Isolated from everything? What about its notion of interconnectedness? I remember a metaphor in the Saddharmapundarikasutra, where merchants go to fetch jewels, become exhausted in the middle of their journey and lose hope in the middle of the desert. Their leader then creates a magic city (Las Vegas) for refuge. Not exactly an island, but something similar and with a negative connotation. And then, as you say, the recommendation to be like islands given to members of the Sangha at the moment of the Buddha's death, when unity is required. I am not convinced. Couldn't it be that with commerce over sea being more developed at the time the Sanskrit commentaries were written, and dvipa being a very common word, that this meaning came to mind first? The first meaning at a given time is not necessarily the first meaning at another time. That will make four cents with yours, Joy From rhayes at unm.edu Sat May 8 11:47:12 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 11:47:12 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <4BE52B55.2010802@ntlworld.com> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4BE52B55.2010802@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4EE6FFD4-27D9-4923-BEBC-617BD4497239@unm.edu> On May 8, 2010, at 3:13 AM, L.S. Cousins wrote: > In the corresponding Sanskrit version > of the Mah?parinirv??as?tra we have dv?pa which means 'island' or > 'continent' or 'doab'. My Pali teacher, A.K. Warder, used to point out that in Pali, 'd?pa' is rarely used in the sense of 'light' but that for 'light' one usually finds 'pad?pa' (Skt prad?pa). He also observed that references to the desirability of isolation and self-reliance are plentiful in the canonical literature. He therefore felt the evidence was strongly in support of taking 'd?pa' in the sense of 'island' rather than 'light'. The further evidence you put forth convinces me he was probably right. Richard Hayes From jkirk at spro.net Sat May 8 17:24:38 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 17:24:38 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <964F00C5FAD746429588FF8AED4E198F@OPTIPLEX> Hi Joy, My replies interlinear, indented: Hi Joanna, The evidence of the traditional reading given by Lance Cousins seems quite compelling, but the metaphor doesn't work for me. I don't find it convincing at all. E.g. the island as a metaphor for refuge. Especially in the case of a river island amidst two floodwaters. Imagine the water level is rising, a little island is left in the middle which is supposed to serve as a secure refuge? What a strange advice! I would say get away from that river. O boy, do I agree. Definitely! Look at poor Bangladesh (former east Bengal) now-- anyone caught between the Padma and a tributary these days is almost out of land and living. You can't live in palm trees (they propbably aren't as solid as those columns used by the Egyptian Christian stilites back in the day, in a desert). And a temporary refuge when one is surprised by a sudden waterflood? This temporary refuge being the only refuge? Moreover, the comparison between crossing Samsara and crossing a river? Perhaps an island in the middle of the ocean? With the rising sea level and tsunamis etc.? With no other refuge than that (Ananna Sharana)? Doesn't look very safe to me. Certainly not the first image of a refuge to pop up. A mountain would be more like it, say the summit of Mount Meru. And even then. Why would one pick a metaphor of a geographical item belonging to a planet that one knows will be destroyed, reappear, destroyed again? Light on the other hand... Exactly--even in those days why would the mighty Indian rivers that regularly flood the land and then retreat into often new channels creating new doabs serve as a metaphor for an inner state?? Better as metaphors for anicca and samsara. Next the metaphor of Dhamma as an island. Paticcasamupp?da as an island? Isolated from everything? What about its notion of interconnectedness? I remember a metaphor in the Saddharmapundarikasutra, where merchants go to fetch jewels, become exhausted in the middle of their journey and lose hope in the middle of the desert. Their leader then creates a magic city (Las Vegas) for refuge. Not exactly an island, but something similar and with a negative connotation. These magic cities, often islands, can also be found in the Bengali mangalkavyas (the Candi one for exc.) That literature as written-down is of course much later than the Buddha--but my research so far suggests that some of the figures (tropes) found in the mangalkavyas are also found in avadanas and also in some canonic narratives. . And then, as you say, the recommendation to be like islands given to members of the Sangha at the moment of the Buddha's death, when unity is required. I am not convinced. Couldn't it be that with commerce over sea being more developed at the time the Sanskrit commentaries were written, and dvipa being a very common word, that this meaning came to mind first? Quite possibly! The first meaning at a given time is not necessarily the first meaning at another time. That will make four cents with yours, Cheers for the lamp!! Joy _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sat May 8 17:26:44 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 17:26:44 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <4EE6FFD4-27D9-4923-BEBC-617BD4497239@unm.edu> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com><4BE52B55.2010802@ntlworld.com> <4EE6FFD4-27D9-4923-BEBC-617BD4497239@unm.edu> Message-ID: <54DE12FCDCD94059AF9DDC4DC0772EC5@OPTIPLEX> "He also observed that references to the desirability of isolation and self-reliance are plentiful in the canonical literature." Yes, but is the term 'dviipa' used in these instances???? I still think it's a far-fetched translation. OTOH, maybe diipa has become simplified in everyday Hindi, Bengali etc etc--as a term that once was more commonly pradiipa, so that one is more influenced to consider its Pali use as lamp rather than island. Just another devil's advocate idea. Lance did say, however: "That said, the rendering from Middle Indian into Sanskrit may be no older than the Pali commentarial tradition. So we do need to look at the context as well." Thank you Lance. There does seem to be a tendency to clutch at accepted translations over historical eras when a new look might be productive (I consider Stephen Batchelor's _Confession of _ book to be a new look for sure)--this also has happened many times to Bible exegesis, as we all know. Joanna K ____________________________________________________ On May 8, 2010, at 3:13 AM, L.S. Cousins wrote: > In the corresponding Sanskrit version of the Mah?parinirv??as?tra we > have dv?pa which means 'island' or 'continent' or 'doab'. My Pali teacher, A.K. Warder, used to point out that in Pali, 'd?pa' is rarely used in the sense of 'light' but that for 'light' one usually finds 'pad?pa' (Skt prad?pa). He also observed that references to the desirability of isolation and self-reliance are plentiful in the canonical literature. He therefore felt the evidence was strongly in support of taking 'd?pa' in the sense of 'island' rather than 'light'. The further evidence you put forth convinces me he was probably right. Richard Hayes _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sat May 8 18:20:32 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 18:20:32 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <964F00C5FAD746429588FF8AED4E198F@OPTIPLEX> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> <964F00C5FAD746429588FF8AED4E198F@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <55EE383844664996A1F8730C9BEF163E@OPTIPLEX> The insistence on using plain text on this listserv is a pain in the butt for anyone who wants to use indenting as a formatting option. And why is it bolded,or dark print??? Geez -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of JKirkpatrick Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 5:25 PM To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) Hi Joy, My replies interlinear, indented: Hi Joanna, The evidence of the traditional reading given by Lance Cousins seems quite compelling, but the metaphor doesn't work for me. I don't find it convincing at all. E.g. the island as a metaphor for refuge. Especially in the case of a river island amidst two floodwaters. Imagine the water level is rising, a little island is left in the middle which is supposed to serve as a secure refuge? What a strange advice! I would say get away from that river. O boy, do I agree. Definitely! Look at poor Bangladesh (former east Bengal) now-- anyone caught between the Padma and a tributary these days is almost out of land and living. You can't live in palm trees (they propbably aren't as solid as those columns used by the Egyptian Christian stilites back in the day, in a desert). And a temporary refuge when one is surprised by a sudden waterflood? This temporary refuge being the only refuge? Moreover, the comparison between crossing Samsara and crossing a river? Perhaps an island in the middle of the ocean? With the rising sea level and tsunamis etc.? With no other refuge than that (Ananna Sharana)? Doesn't look very safe to me. Certainly not the first image of a refuge to pop up. A mountain would be more like it, say the summit of Mount Meru. And even then. Why would one pick a metaphor of a geographical item belonging to a planet that one knows will be destroyed, reappear, destroyed again? Light on the other hand... Exactly--even in those days why would the mighty Indian rivers that regularly flood the land and then retreat into often new channels creating new doabs serve as a metaphor for an inner state?? Better as metaphors for anicca and samsara. Next the metaphor of Dhamma as an island. Paticcasamupp?da as an island? Isolated from everything? What about its notion of interconnectedness? I remember a metaphor in the Saddharmapundarikasutra, where merchants go to fetch jewels, become exhausted in the middle of their journey and lose hope in the middle of the desert. Their leader then creates a magic city (Las Vegas) for refuge. Not exactly an island, but something similar and with a negative connotation. These magic cities, often islands, can also be found in the Bengali mangalkavyas (the Candi one for exc.) That literature as written-down is of course much later than the Buddha--but my research so far suggests that some of the figures (tropes) found in the mangalkavyas are also found in avadanas and also in some canonic narratives. . And then, as you say, the recommendation to be like islands given to members of the Sangha at the moment of the Buddha's death, when unity is required. I am not convinced. Couldn't it be that with commerce over sea being more developed at the time the Sanskrit commentaries were written, and dvipa being a very common word, that this meaning came to mind first? Quite possibly! The first meaning at a given time is not necessarily the first meaning at another time. That will make four cents with yours, Cheers for the lamp!! Joy _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Sat May 8 19:18:10 2010 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 18:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Troubling times for philosophy professors? Message-ID: <154358.39825.qm@web112612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Troubling times for philosophy departments? ? ? Middlesex University cuts spark international protest from philosophers: ? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/09/middlesex-university-cuts-protest-philosophers ? Katherine Masis From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Sat May 8 19:38:52 2010 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 18:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Aura and after-image In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <417138.53216.qm@web112602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Tina Rasmussen and Stephen Snyder, advanced students of Pa-Auk Sayadaw and teachers of jhana, have some online talks on nimitta: ? http://www.jhanasadvice.com ? Katherine Masis ? From joy.vriens at gmail.com Sun May 9 00:08:37 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 08:08:37 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <4EE6FFD4-27D9-4923-BEBC-617BD4497239@unm.edu> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4BE52B55.2010802@ntlworld.com> <4EE6FFD4-27D9-4923-BEBC-617BD4497239@unm.edu> Message-ID: Richard wrote: > My Pali teacher, A.K. Warder, used to point out that in Pali, 'd?pa' is rarely used in the sense of 'light' but that for 'light' one usually finds 'pad?pa' (Skt prad?pa). He also observed that references to the desirability of isolation and self-reliance are plentiful in the canonical literature. He therefore felt the evidence was strongly in support of taking 'd?pa' in the sense of 'island' rather than 'light'. The further evidence you put forth convinces me he was probably right. One of the possible reasons for 'd?pa' being rarely used for light may be due to the fact that on most occurrences it is translated as island. By consensus. As Lance wrote the explanation in terms of 'lamp' has been rejected for a long while. "Has been rejected", but merely based on reasons of common practice and choice as far as I can see. There is the case of a "Dipa Sutta: The Lamp" (SN 54.8), though not as a metaphor for light but for the fuel in the lamp. Still dipa is used for lamp. I have been looking for other occurrences but seem to stumble invariably on the same problem of a crooked metaphor that doesn't work with the rest of the image if island is chosen as a translation (leaving the commentary out of consideration). E.g. Dhammapada 236. "Make an island for yourself. Hasten and strive. Be wise. With the dust of impurities blown off, and free from sinful passions, you will come unto the glorious land of the great." (Juan Mascaro). Does one make oneself into an island or does one make an island? Regarding the Dhp quotation, does this island then perhaps float or swim towards the glorious land of the great? This is against all rules of poetry or simply the use of images in writing. It goes against the sense of aesthetics. Why introduce the strong image of an island if it isn't further exploited in the rest of the sentence? An island is a strong complex image with many different connotations compared to a lamp or light for judgement or pa??a etc. Genjun Sasaki offers some arguments in favour of island, but none of them convinces me. http://tinyurl.com/2b75rxs I found the "shipwreck" in combination with the "island" convincing, but it appears to be from a commentary by Buddhagosa. And even then: shipwreck, island, this can only be a temporary emergency solution. Even in the Dhammapada quotation, the island is not the ultimate refuge, because that seems to be the glorious land of the great. Then how can the island be recommended as the only refuge or resting place? Why not a solid ship to sail towards that glorious land of the great? Madeleine Biardeau (who recently lefts us) wrote how she thinks the Mahabharata was written in reaction to the upcoming Buddhism. Dominique Trottignon, in France, will be publishing a book shortly with a theory on how Theravada was constituted in reaction to the upcoming Mahayana Buddhism. Propaganda words are as old as the world. We can't stop at the simple argument of common usage, without looking into (or at least trying to look into it) why it was commonly used, when another usage seems to exist simultaneously. To simply state that the "other translators", as Genjun Sasaki writes about the Chinese translations, haven't properly understood doesn't convince me. All translators, Chines, Tibetan etc. worked in teams with often native speakers and acaryas. As for more modern translations, I am aware of a possible strong defensiveness against any essentialist interpretation. Don't give to much leeway to Theosophical interpretations. E.g. there has been another battle about the "atta" in "atta dipa". So give me a good reason with positive arguments to accept the island translation. How to explain dhamma dipa? "The island of Truth" as some have translated ? Make Truth into an island? Or make an island for Truth? Does Truth really needs our help? Remember they are on the same level: atta dipa, dhamma dipa. What meaning/interpretation of dhamma when island is picked as the translation? The advantage of the translation of lamp, that it already has the idea of guidance built in it. A lamp guides us in the dark. It can guide us towards the glorious land of the great. What does an island do? Please save me from heresy. Joy From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun May 9 02:58:15 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 10:58:15 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4BE52B55.2010802@ntlworld.com> <4EE6FFD4-27D9-4923-BEBC-617BD4497239@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4BE67927.2030003@xs4all.nl> Op 9-5-2010 8:08, Joy Vriens schreef: > How to explain dhamma dipa? "The island of Truth" as some have > translated ? Make Truth into an island? Or make an island for Truth? > Does Truth really needs our help? Remember they are on the same level: > atta dipa, dhamma dipa. What meaning/interpretation of dhamma when > island is picked as the translation? The advantage of the translation > of lamp, that it already has the idea of guidance built in it. A lamp > guides us in the dark. It can guide us towards the glorious land of > the great. What does an island do? > > Please save me from heresy. > > Joy > What's wrong with heresy? Life without it would be terribly dull. I casn sympatize with Joy's brave attempts to introduce some logic into Pali, but language is not allways plain and clear. I remember that Richard accused me long time ago of getting at his goats. I think that when after 2000 years our discussion would have been digged up from the archives of the Buddha-l, a similar discussion would pop up about the function of goats in the exchange of ideas between the Netherlands and the USA in the 21st century. I think this would lead to some interesting abductions. Language is not logical, certainly not the idiomatic side of it. Perhaps a metafor as a dry spot of land in a river seems for us less meaningfull than for an Indian person in a time when crossing rivers used to be part of daily life and life was considered inherently dangerous. I think that there are more metafors of that kind in Indian literature of the time. erik ps My friend, Rob Janssen has followed the discussion with interest and asked me to publish his reaction. Dear discussants, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that also in the commentary on the Mah?parinibb?na-sutta ( the Sumangalavil?sinii by Buddhaghosa) the explanation of diipa is given as 'island' and not as 'light': Atta-diip? ti mah?samuddagata? diipa? viya att?na? diipa? patittha? katv? viharatha ' your self as an isle means: you should live having made your self into an island, a support (resting place) like an island in the great ocean. It is not likely that Buddhaghosa refers here to a light(house?) in the middle of the ocean. Robert Janssen From joy.vriens at gmail.com Sun May 9 03:56:36 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 11:56:36 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <4BE67927.2030003@xs4all.nl> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4BE52B55.2010802@ntlworld.com> <4EE6FFD4-27D9-4923-BEBC-617BD4497239@unm.edu> <4BE67927.2030003@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Hi Eric, Thanks for your support of heresy. Heretics of All Countries, Unite! Language is not logical, sure, especially when it becomes more and more idiomatic. The logical structure behind the language is already clearer. I jokingly mentioned "Me Tarzan, you Jane", "you this, me that", "work more, earn more" (our friend Sarkozy's sutta). Metaphors aside, if you look at the simplicity of the sutta under discussion, it is obvious to me that the structure and the thought behind it is simple one. It's an aphorism, it's brief, it's meant to strike hard and to leave a clear mark. "atta dipa, dhamma dipa". In any translation with island thus far, I haven't seen a single one that renders the simplicity of this structure and the idea behind it. Commentaries are no proof. I have read quite a lot of them and I have seen for myself what they can do with/to the original versions and their argument is often one of authority. Because of the structural simplicity, atta is something and dhamma is the very same something. On the other hand, because of the structural logic "Atta dipa, dipa dhamma" would have been a different case. We could have translated: (one)self is an island, (that) island is dhamma. But here atta and dhamma have exactly the same function and therefore dhamma can be taken as a precision, or another aspect or view of atta. Without even talking about the meaning of dipa. In the case of the island translation, I would like to see in what way the Dhamma/dhamma is an island and what Dhamma/dhamma is that island. Images change, the way images were once perceived change too as you point out. The Buddha was talking about rivers, the current of a river, going against the current. Mahayana Buddhism talks about the ocean, crossing the ocean of samsara. Indian society had changed too. Everyone experience images from their own point of view. As a Dutchman Robert logically come us up with a lighthouse. It's an excellent compromise between the lamp and the island. Worth a new commentary, perhaps Robert would like to write it? :-) Joy 1. Ma anussavena 2. Ma paramparaya 3. Ma itikiraya 4. Ma Pitakasampadanena 5. Ma takkahetu 6. Ma nayahetu 7. Ma akaraparivitakkena 8. Ma ditthinijjhanakkhantiya 9. Ma bhabbarupataya 10. Ma samano no garu ti http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books5/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Help_The_Kalama_Sutta_Help.htm From selwyn at ntlworld.com Sun May 9 04:20:58 2010 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 11:20:58 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4BE52B55.2010802@ntlworld.com> <4EE6FFD4-27D9-4923-BEBC-617BD4497239@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4BE68C8A.8000901@ntlworld.com> I suspect that interpretations of this passage have more to do with Victorian ideas than with traditional Therav?da. Of course, that may partly be because it is not easy to understand what the commentators are saying. But I will try. In the Mah?parinibb?nasutta and the Gil?nasutta (S V 154) the context is precise. The Buddha (around 80 years old and suffering various ailments) indicates that he or his body is more comfortable when he disregards all signs (nimitta = objects of the mind) and after the cessation of some kinds of feeling enters and abides in signless concentration of mind. That is understood by the commentators as referring to fruition attainment i.e. the experience of enlightenment that can be subsequently available for those who have previously reached some stage of enlightenment. The instruction to be attad?pa, etc. follows immediately and explicitly for this reason (tasm?tiha). To make this absolutely clear, the rhetorical question 'how is one attad?pa, etc. ?' immediately follows. The answer given is the practice of the four establishings/foundations of mindfulness. So what does the instruction to have Self and nothing or no-one else as an island or refuge and to have Dhamma and nothing or no-one else as an island or refuge mean ? The subcommentator spells out what Buddhaghosa implies: 'self' can be a term for one's own continuity, but it doesn't mean that here. According to Buddhaghosa Self here means both ordinary and transcendent dhamma while Dhamma means the nine kinds of transcendent Dhamma (i.e. paths, fruits and nibb?na). It is not easy to see what exactly Buddhaghosa means here, but he is clearly correct to interpret the passage in terms of advanced meditative experience. Trying to interpret this, I would explain: The monks are told to dwell (viharatha), taking as their refuge (i.e. source of authority and protection) their own meditative experience of whatever kind (= Self) or better, if they can, taking as their refuge their own experience of enlightenment. In fact, it seems more likely that Self and Dhamma are actually intended as synonyms in the original passage. It's a general tendency in the commentaries to differentiate synonyms. This often gives more interesting meanings but may not be historically correct. (And viharatha may mean 'wander' rather than 'dwell'.) Lance Cousins From joy.vriens at gmail.com Sun May 9 07:55:02 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 15:55:02 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <4BE68C8A.8000901@ntlworld.com> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4BE52B55.2010802@ntlworld.com> <4EE6FFD4-27D9-4923-BEBC-617BD4497239@unm.edu> <4BE68C8A.8000901@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Dear Lance, Thanks a lot, this is wonderful. I have been thinking further about the island and "the ground which is not submerged by floodwaters coming from two sides". I was thinking how to render the idea of an island that is a refuge and came up with asylum. A dry place between two (flood)waters makes me think of a river island. Living in France, it made me think of Notre-Dame which is situated on an island in the river Seine. "Crier : asile!" (HUGO, Notre-Dame de Paris, t. 2, 1832, p. 402). Where were the traditional places where asylum was granted (like on l'?le Saint-Louis, in Notre-Dame)? I don't know whether there is a tradition of asylum in India, in holy places, near a river. E.g near or on the tirthas. "Tirtha means a ford, a shallow part of a body of water that may be easily crossed. A tirtha provides the inspiration to enable one to cross over from worldly engagement to the side of nirvana". A "shallow part surrounded by water" comes very near to dviipa, the "ground which is not submerged by floodwaters coming from two sides". If India does have an asylum tradition, then asylum (the original meaning) could be a good or acceptable translation. Joy From rhayes at unm.edu Sun May 9 08:44:19 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 08:44:19 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4BE52B55.2010802@ntlworld.com> <4EE6FFD4-27D9-4923-BEBC-617BD4497239@unm.edu> Message-ID: <970A6D8D-B526-48F2-852D-4A77304E67A9@unm.edu> On May 9, 2010, at 12:08 AM, Joy Vriens wrote: > I have been looking for other occurrences but seem to stumble > invariably on the same problem of a crooked metaphor that doesn't work > with the rest of the image if island is chosen as a translation > (leaving the commentary out of consideration). All the instances you cite make a great deal of sense to me when 'd?pa' is interpreted as island. They pose no problems whatsoever. What I recommend is that, since the text is ambiguous and thus allows for more than one interpretation, choose the interpretation that works for you, and don't worry about whether another interpretation works better for someone else. > Please save me from heresy. Why? Richard From joy.vriens at gmail.com Sun May 9 09:57:53 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 17:57:53 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <970A6D8D-B526-48F2-852D-4A77304E67A9@unm.edu> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4BE52B55.2010802@ntlworld.com> <4EE6FFD4-27D9-4923-BEBC-617BD4497239@unm.edu> <970A6D8D-B526-48F2-852D-4A77304E67A9@unm.edu> Message-ID: Richard wrote: > All the instances you cite make a great deal of sense to me when 'd?pa' is interpreted as island. They pose no problems whatsoever. What I recommend is that, since the text is ambiguous and thus allows for more than one interpretation, choose the interpretation that works for you, and don't worry about whether another interpretation works better for someone else. They don't work for me *as such* and I am curious to find out how it can be meaningful to others *as such*. I have always learned a lot from trying make sense of different points of view, different opinions. After Lance's explanation it is clear to me that the image of an "island" is supposed to evoke the idea of refuge and safety. My mother is not reassured as long as she is on a boat or even on an island because she doesn't feel safe there. I love islands, but they have absolutely no connotation of a refuge or of safety for me. Somehow, in the days of the Buddha an "island" stood for refuge and safety. I just wonder why. Using Eric's goat expression example, suppose in 2000 years an enigmatic Christian text will be discovered, recommending to become a "high building with a steeple" to oneself. Without knowing the function of that high building and all the connotations of a community coming together there and helping each other out, sharing warmth etc. etc., in short a church, the people living then wont get the right idea and image. For me the same thing goes when I read "Make yourself into a ground which is not submerged by floodwaters coming from two sides". Even when it says "Make yourself into an island" it doesn't evoke any particular images except isolation, certainly not of a refuge and of a safe place which it is supposed to evoke. I don't even understand how it can work for you :-) But it certainly seemed to have worked in the days of the Buddha. Hence my asylum idea. For India a ford (tirtha), evoking the idea of a sanctuary and asylum, incidentally a bridge. That would explain how from that ford, one could cross over to nirvana or how one could get from there to "to the glorious land of the great". Joy >> Please save me from heresy. > Why? To draw attention. From joy.vriens at gmail.com Sun May 9 10:24:34 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 18:24:34 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <970A6D8D-B526-48F2-852D-4A77304E67A9@unm.edu> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4BE52B55.2010802@ntlworld.com> <4EE6FFD4-27D9-4923-BEBC-617BD4497239@unm.edu> <970A6D8D-B526-48F2-852D-4A77304E67A9@unm.edu> Message-ID: > All the instances you cite make a great deal of sense to me when 'd?pa' is interpreted as island. Here are the different meanings of the Tibetan word "gling", which translates "dv?pa" : gling - (JH-SKT, YOGA) dvIpa (JH-SKT) {LCh,C}* (JH-ENG, JV, IW, RB) continent (JH-ENG) *; island; location [as of a monastery] (JH-OE) {C}island (YOGA) dvIpaka (JV) sacred grass, island, isolated place, limb, part of the globe, division of lands, *, large monastery, mansion, flute (IW) 1) dry place great or small surrounded by water; 2) piece, fragment; 3) large monestery; 4) 7 (met) [from the 7 gling around mt meru [zla ba, 'od dkar, ku sha, mi'am ci, khrung khrung, drag po'i gling, 'dzam gling chen po] is[land], place, sanctuary, *, monastery, temple complex, mansion, part, a district in Tibet "Continent", "island", "division of lands" and "isolated place" are some of the meanings of "gling". Many names of Tibetan buddhist centres end on Ling "gling". Few of them are islands. Isn't one of the first meanings of sacred "isolated", "shielded from the world"?. The Tibetan word for dv?pa also has the following meanings: "dry place great or small surrounded by water", "large monastery", "sanctuary", "temple complex" with more sacred connotations. Conclusion, the translation "island" emptied out of all sacred connotations and functions does not render "dv?pa" properly. Joy From joy.vriens at gmail.com Sun May 9 11:21:02 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 19:21:02 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4BE52B55.2010802@ntlworld.com> <4EE6FFD4-27D9-4923-BEBC-617BD4497239@unm.edu> <970A6D8D-B526-48F2-852D-4A77304E67A9@unm.edu> Message-ID: Your Self is your sanctuary Dwell in it Take refuge in your Self There is no other refuge Dhamma is your sanctuary Take refuge in Dhamma There is no other refuge Taking onboard Lance's and Buddhaghosa's explanation. "Self here means both ordinary and transcendent dhamma while Dhamma means the nine kinds of transcendent Dhamma". And Richard's blessing to choose the interpretation that works for me. I am saved. My Tibetan terma adapted accordingly: bdag ni gling du gnas pas// bdag la'ang skyabs su song cig // de las skyobs pa gzhan med// dam chos gling du 'gyur nas// chos la'ang skyabs su song cig // de las skyobs pa gzhan med// Joy From jkirk at spro.net Sun May 9 15:23:39 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 15:23:39 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Hi all, This has been an interesting thread. Having looked up a few words in the Pali-Eng. dictionary, I found the following: Refuge: T??a T??a (nt.) [from Vedic root tr?, variation of *ter in tarati. Orig. bringing or seeing through] shelter, protection, refuge, esp. as tt. of shelter & peace offered by the Dhamma. Mostly in combn with le?a & sara?a (also d?pa & abhaya), in var. contexts, esp. with ref. to Nibb?na (see Nd2 s. v.): D i.95 D?pa 1 & 2 D?pa1 [Ved. d?pa to Ved. d?, d?pyate; Idg. *dei?? to shine (see dibba, deva); cp. Gr. di/alos, dh_los; see also jotati] a lamp J ii.104 (?? j?leti to light a l.); DhA ii.49 (id.), 94 (id.) -- acci the flame of a lamp ThA 154; -- ?loka light of a l. J i.266; vi.391; DhA i.359; VvA 51; -- (??)kara making light, shining, illuminating Nd2 399 (=pabha? kara Sn 1136; but cp. Dh 236 under d?pa2); Vism 203. -- tittira a decoy partridge (cp. d?paka?) J iii.64; -- rukkha lit. lamp -- tree, the stand of a lamp, candlestick DhA iv.120; -- sikh? the flame (lit. crest) of a l. Vism 171; DhA ii.49. D?pa D?pa2 (m. & nt.) [Ved. dv?pa=dvi+ap (*sp.) of ?pa water, lit. "double -- watered," between (two) waters] an island, continent (mah??, always as 4); terra firma, solid foundation, resting -- place, shelter, refuge (in this sense freq. combd w. t??a lena & sara?a & expl. in Com. by pati??h?) -- (a) lit. island: S v.219; J iii.187; VvA 19; Mhvs vii.7, 41. -- continent: catt?ro mah?d?p? S v.343; Vv 2010 (=VvA 104); VvA 19; PvA 74 Plus: D?paka 1 & 2 D?paka1 (=d?pa1) (a) f. d?pik? a lamp, in da??a? a torch DhA i.220, 399, -- (b) (? -- ) an image of, having the appearance of, sham etc.; in -- kakkara a decoy partridge J ii.161; -- tittira same J iii.358; -- pakkhin a decoy bird J v.376; -- miga a d. antelope J v.376. [these hunting glosses are a surprise] D?paka2 (=d?pa2) a (little) island J i.278, 279; ii.160. Thinking this over, one can view a river as samsara because it is so often used as a metonym for samsara, as in the raft teaching. Therefore, the sandbar (to me a 'doab' is too vast to serve the purpose here), standing above the river as it flows around it instead of over it, makes sense as refuge and as solid ground (nothing solid about river/samsara, right?). In India the rivers don't run full during the dry season, lowering in depth and producing sandbars and what could be called small islands. These are indeed viewed as solid ground by locals (even if not always solid ground), in that in dry season these grounds are cultivated. They are solid. People put up huts and live on them while cultivating crops. So I have to admit that, given the dictionary renderings of these terms, those who view the refuge as 'island' (in the sense in which it could have been understood by the Buddha's audiences' knowledge of their habitat, rivers etc.), the English rendering is very difficult to displace by the terms 'lamp' or 'illumination'. Having myself seen the Ganga in retreat with its beaches and long sandbanks in cultivation, it's much more meaningful to me now to imagine the chaar(s) (as they are called in Bengali) as representing islands in the sutta. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Joy Vriens Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 5:18 AM Hi Joanna, The evidence of the traditional reading given by Lance Cousins seems quite compelling, but the metaphor doesn't work for me. I don't find it convincing at all. E.g. the island as a metaphor for refuge. Especially in the case of a river island amidst two floodwaters. Imagine the water level is rising, a little island is left in the middle which is supposed to serve as a secure refuge? What a strange advice! I would say get away from that river. And a temporary refuge when one is surprised by a sudden waterflood? This temporary refuge being the only refuge? Moreover, the comparison between crossing Samsara and crossing a river? Perhaps an island in the middle of the ocean? With the rising sea level and tsunamis etc.? With no other refuge than that (Ananna Sharana)? Doesn't look very safe to me. Certainly not the first image of a refuge to pop up. A mountain would be more like it, say the summit of Mount Meru. And even then. Why would one pick a metaphor of a geographical item belonging to a planet that one knows will be destroyed, reappear, destroyed again? Light on the other hand... Next the metaphor of Dhamma as an island. Paticcasamupp?da as an island? Isolated from everything? What about its notion of interconnectedness? I remember a metaphor in the Saddharmapundarikasutra, where merchants go to fetch jewels, become exhausted in the middle of their journey and lose hope in the middle of the desert. Their leader then creates a magic city (Las Vegas) for refuge. Not exactly an island, but something similar and with a negative connotation. And then, as you say, the recommendation to be like islands given to members of the Sangha at the moment of the Buddha's death, when unity is required. I am not convinced. Couldn't it be that with commerce over sea being more developed at the time the Sanskrit commentaries were written, and dvipa being a very common word, that this meaning came to mind first? The first meaning at a given time is not necessarily the first meaning at another time. That will make four cents with yours, Joy _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From joy.vriens at gmail.com Mon May 10 01:06:47 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 09:06:47 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Hi Joanna, "Thinking this over, one can view a river as samsara because it is so often used as a metonym for samsara, as in the raft teaching. Therefore, the sandbar (to me a 'doab' is too vast to serve the purpose here), standing above the river as it flows around it instead of over it, makes sense as refuge and as solid ground (nothing solid about river/samsara, right?). In India the rivers don't run full during the dry season, lowering in depth and producing sandbars and what could be called small islands. These are indeed viewed as solid ground by locals (even if not always solid ground), in that in dry season these grounds are cultivated. They are solid. People put up huts and live on them while cultivating crops." There are two different aspects here for me. One the image of a river, a stream, a torrent for samsara. Which I prefer to the ocean, where one has to navigate for a long time before being able to cross it. As long as one is navigating towards the final destination, it is as if nothing has changed. Whereas the river and its stream is more similar to our mind stream, where patches of temporary peace can be found immediately. The second part is the island, or sandbar as such as an image of safety. We all know the phenomenon of waning and flooding of rivers. People avoid to settle on grounds that can be inundated. No building permits will be delivered for those grounds, because they are not safe. They will be used for cattle in the summer. In France many rivers have signs telling you not to bathe in the river, because it's connecte to a hydro-electrical dam and when the water is let out, the river level can raise very suddenly. The huts and the crops on the sandbars are precarious and temporary. Not a good image for refuge. Another idea. Dhammapada 188. "Many people, out of fear, flee for refuge ( sara.na) to (sacred) hills, woods, groves, trees, and shrines." In other words, they flee to the traditional sanctuaries and places of safety. The attadipa sutta has the word refuge (sara.na) appearing a couple of times. And sara.na and "island" are similar/synonyms. Dhammapada 189 comments : In reality this is not a safe refuge. "In reality this is not the best refuge. Fleeing to such a refuge one is not released from all suffering." Therefore a sandbar would not be a safe refuge. As soon as the water rises again, you would have to move on. The Tibetan equivalent for dviipa, gling, has kept the different meanings of "dviipa". The first temple built in Tibet in the 8th century with the help of the Indian acarya ??ntarak?ita was called Samye Ling (bsam yas gling). I don't know whether ??ntarak?ita was involved in the choice of the name, but here dviipa is clearly not an island or a sandbar. The architecture of Samye Ling was modeled on a Buddhist temple in India. It is current nowadays to add gling = dviipa to the names of temples and centres. It was current in the 8th century in Tibet. Perhaps it was even current in the India of ??ntarak?ita. At least there are no rapports about ??ntarak?ita having been shocked by the name "gling" / dviipa and having shouted out "Why island, there is no water here!". Joy From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 10 08:38:06 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:38:06 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: OK Joy, but you are addressing the idea of 'a' refuge post-Pali canon, post-Buddha. The Tibetan religious culture came along centuries after the dammapada and the Buddha, no? So the review of ideas about the Pali verse would, I should think, need to be considered in the context of conditions at the time of the Buddha as sources for figurative discourse. The dammapada verse that you quoted refers to real-time flight to refuge of ordinary people, and is being contrasted to spiritual refuge: "188. Driven only by fear, do men go for refuge to many places ? to hills, woods, groves, trees and shrines. 189. Such, indeed, is no safe refuge; such is not the refuge supreme. Not by resorting to such a refuge is one released from all suffering." The attadiipa sutta under discussion however is a figure of speech, a trope recommending that the monks --bereft of their teacher-- take themselves as refuge "as if" their hearts/minds were a dvipa. Why dvipa, then? To 'tropise' even a seasonal condition of a river (2-waters translation), something that anyone near a river would immediately grasp--and they all were from time to time as attested in the texts where rivers are frequently named--as a figure of speech serves to create a recognisable image in the context. But it could not have been meant to be taken literally, which is what you seem to be doing. Joanna _________________________________ Hi Joanna, "Thinking this over, one can view a river as samsara because it is so often used as a metonym for samsara, as in the raft teaching. Therefore, the sandbar (to me a 'doab' is too vast to serve the purpose here), standing above the river as it flows around it instead of over it, makes sense as refuge and as solid ground (nothing solid about river/samsara, right?). In India the rivers don't run full during the dry season, lowering in depth and producing sandbars and what could be called small islands. These are indeed viewed as solid ground by locals (even if not always solid ground), in that in dry season these grounds are cultivated. They are solid. People put up huts and live on them while cultivating crops." There are two different aspects here for me. One the image of a river, a stream, a torrent for samsara. Which I prefer to the ocean, where one has to navigate for a long time before being able to cross it. As long as one is navigating towards the final destination, it is as if nothing has changed. Whereas the river and its stream is more similar to our mind stream, where patches of temporary peace can be found immediately. The second part is the island, or sandbar as such as an image of safety. We all know the phenomenon of waning and flooding of rivers. People avoid to settle on grounds that can be inundated. No building permits will be delivered for those grounds, because they are not safe. They will be used for cattle in the summer. In France many rivers have signs telling you not to bathe in the river, because it's connecte to a hydro-electrical dam and when the water is let out, the river level can raise very suddenly. The huts and the crops on the sandbars are precarious and temporary. Not a good image for refuge. Another idea. Dhammapada 188. "Many people, out of fear, flee for refuge ( sara.na) to (sacred) hills, woods, groves, trees, and shrines." In other words, they flee to the traditional sanctuaries and places of safety. The attadipa sutta has the word refuge (sara.na) appearing a couple of times. And sara.na and "island" are similar/synonyms. Dhammapada 189 comments : In reality this is not a safe refuge. "In reality this is not the best refuge. Fleeing to such a refuge one is not released from all suffering." Therefore a sandbar would not be a safe refuge. As soon as the water rises again, you would have to move on. The Tibetan equivalent for dviipa, gling, has kept the different meanings of "dviipa". The first temple built in Tibet in the 8th century with the help of the Indian acarya ??ntarak?ita was called Samye Ling (bsam yas gling). I don't know whether ??ntarak?ita was involved in the choice of the name, but here dviipa is clearly not an island or a sandbar. The architecture of Samye Ling was modeled on a Buddhist temple in India. It is current nowadays to add gling = dviipa to the names of temples and centres. It was current in the 8th century in Tibet. Perhaps it was even current in the India of ??ntarak?ita. At least there are no rapports about ??ntarak?ita having been shocked by the name "gling" / dviipa and having shouted out "Why island, there is no water here!". Joy _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From joy.vriens at gmail.com Mon May 10 09:47:00 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 17:47:00 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Hi Joanna, My idea is that the Buddha, in the attadipa sutta and the mahaparibbana sutta teaches that no other refuge, or sanctuary is needed than oneself and the Dhamma. The Dhammapada shows the different sanctuaries in which people used to take refuge. He said IMO let yourself and the Dhamma be your sanctuary. In other words you don't need any sanctuary. Refuge often tends to be refuge in something, which is believed to be able to protect us, various animistic gods, yaksa, etc., common denominator sanctuaries. The practical Sanskrit-English dictionary, V?man Shivar?m ?pte, p.519 has as the first meaning for dvipa : 1. island and as the second 2. place of refuge, shelter, protection. It's not unreasonable to say that refuge in... goes better with the 2nd meaning than with the first meaning of dvipa. Dvipa seems to be able to stand for an object of refuge. Why is it particularly pertinent at the moment of the Buddha's death? The Buddha who used to be their refuge is going to die. Who shall be their dvipa (2nd meaning) next? Oneself and the Dhamma. Another example. Take the word ksetra which means field. If you hang on to that first meaning of the word, you wont be able to understand the expression ksetra and ksetrajnana properly. Ksetra in this context means the body and the knower of the body. i am not sure about the translations, but there you have the gist. Translating taking refuge in an island instead of in a sanctuary or place or object of refuge would be like translating ksetrajnana as the knower of an (agricultural) field or somesuch. Sometimes it's not the first meaning of a word that is meant. Joy From rhayes at unm.edu Mon May 10 11:54:51 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 11:54:51 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <4BE68C8A.8000901@ntlworld.com> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4BE52B55.2010802@ntlworld.com> <4EE6FFD4-27D9-4923-BEBC-617BD4497239@unm.edu> <4BE68C8A.8000901@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <6A4587D8-D805-4A92-BC72-3E88BAD9B1C9@unm.edu> On May 9, 2010, at 4:20 AM, L.S. Cousins wrote: > I suspect that interpretations of this passage have more to do with > Victorian ideas than with traditional Therav?da. I think that is undoubtedly the case for many Americans, especially for those brought up with an Emersonian fondness for self-reliance and all the late 19th century allergies to organized religions. To stumble upon a text that could be interpreted as saying "Thou art an island unto thyself, and no one but thee can help thee out of the mess thou hast made of thy life," (as we used to speak when I was a child) was to find a treasure of unsurpassed value. It seemed to condone a highly individual spiritual practice conducted without reference to any congregation, community or sangha. No matter how much I may have learned about Buddhism since I first stumbled upon that text (and the Rhinoceros Horn), both of which I interpreted as invitations to be an island and to be my own refuge, I have never found anything as deeply satisfying as that call to self-reliance. That that interpretation may be a gratuitous anachronism is a minor exegetical detail of interest to pedants but of no use to deeply introverted practitioners in whom exposure to collective efforts at spirituality induce projective vomiting. Richard From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon May 10 18:00:15 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 20:00:15 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan> >you wont be able to understand the > expression ksetra and ksetrajnana properly. Ksetra in this context means > the > body and the knower of the body. Joy, these terms are the crucial epistemological recommendation of the Bhagavad Gita, ch. 13. The knower is purusa, the field is prakrti. "Body" is too limited a concept to encompass prakrti. As for the dvipa discussion, let's not forget during all the thought experiments, that India itself is called -- in the same Nikayas -- jambud?pa, the "island/continent of Jambu" (Skt. Jambudv?pa). So the claustrophobic musings about islands, including consigning it to mid-river tidal flashes, is too restrictive. It is especially disappointing that after a discussion of Nagarjuna the buddha-hell regulars start applying either/or insistence to a delicious hermeneutic aporia, otherwise known as a pun. -d?pa has both meanings, and, while it has a traditional interpretation that probably reflects the more basic sense, the other senses dance in the margins of our considerations, enriching our thinking. The advice by Lance and Richard in that regard is on target. Take note as well, that this phrase was oft-repeated, and does not just occur in this sutta and the Nibbana sutta. It recurs numerous times in the Nikayas. Dan From joy.vriens at gmail.com Tue May 11 00:12:23 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 08:12:23 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: Hi Dan, As for the dvipa discussion, let's not forget during all the thought > experiments, that India itself is called -- in the same Nikayas -- > jambud?pa, the "island/continent of Jambu" (Skt. Jambudv?pa). So the > claustrophobic musings about islands, including consigning it to mid-river > tidal flashes, is too restrictive. > > Yes that was the third meaning given by V?man Shivar?m ?pte. A continent, so you will have to be either a Nasa shuttle or a god to see the two waters (dvi appa). Hey about the claustrophobic musings, when you see a granny juggling plenty of shopping bags and three dogs trying to push herself between parked cars in order to cross the street, you just sit back continuing to sip your coffee on a caf? terrace thinking how hard it must be to grow old? At least Lance acted as a gentleman offering his own brilliant musings. The positive result of having humiliated myself in front of deeply introverted practitioners is that it leaves me with a lovely island with other senses dancing on it, whereas before I only had a bleak island lost in the fog. Do you know the joke about Vimalakirti, the deeply introverted practitioner and the autist? Joy From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue May 11 00:30:58 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 02:30:58 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX><002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <009501caf0d3$84fa1cb0$2101a8c0@Dan> Joy, I've been busy finishing up a piece past its deadline. My participation was unnecessary since you were getting good advice. On Pali matters wouldn't you rather hear from Lance than from me anyway? (You should!) Why bring up Vimalakirti, that overly eloquent, offensive loudmouth who, for some strange reason, is only remembered for the one moment when he actually shut up (and only then because he was invited to do so)? Are you suggesting something? Dan From joy.vriens at gmail.com Tue May 11 01:08:36 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 09:08:36 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vimalakirti Message-ID: On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 8:30 AM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Why bring up Vimalakirti, that overly eloquent, offensive loudmouth who, > for > some strange reason, is only remembered for the one moment when he actually > shut up (and only then because he was invited to do so)? Are you suggesting > something? > > Ah! I am not your senso but haven't you properly heard Vimalakirti's > deafening silence then? When was he actually silent? > The only moment his silence becomes manifest (a nimitta) you call him silent? What is silence? I love the Vimalakirtinirdesa. It reads like a Moli?re play. It's a play, it's theater. How would you render silence on the scene? I would surround it with noise. A bit like Haydn's Drumstroke Symphonie (Nr. 94 G-Dur, "mit dem Paukenschlag" for the pedants on this list), but then the other way round. The answer was already in the joke, but if you insist and at the risk of spoiling it. "Do you know the joke about Vimalakirti, the deeply introverted practitioner and the autist?" They didn't know who was who. Joy From selwyn at ntlworld.com Tue May 11 01:37:37 2010 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 08:37:37 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4BE90941.1080802@ntlworld.com> On 11/05/2010 01:00, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > It is especially disappointing that after a discussion of Nagarjuna the > buddha-hell regulars start applying either/or insistence to a delicious > hermeneutic aporia, otherwise known as a pun. -d?pa has both meanings, and, > while it has a traditional interpretation that probably reflects the more > basic sense, the other senses dance in the margins of our considerations, > enriching our thinking. The advice by Lance and Richard in that regard is on > target. Take note as well, that this phrase was oft-repeated, and does not > just occur in this sutta and the Nibbana sutta. It recurs numerous times in > the Nikayas. Well not really, Dan. It is never found in the Vinaya or Abhidhamma Pi?akas, nor in the Majjhima and A?guttara Nik?yas. So the contexts are quite limited. It is found, as noted, in the Mah?parinirv??asutta and once elsewhere in the D?ghanik?ya: at the very beginning of the Cakkavattis?han?dasutta where the whole sequence from attad?po onwards is cited and the explanation that one is attad?pa, etc. by practising the four establishings of mindfulness follows immediately. It is found in two additional places in the Sa?yutta Nik?ya. One is the Gil?nasutta (S V 152?154) which may appear to the reader as an extract from the same passage in the Mah?parinirv??asutta. (I myself think it is one of the short suttas from which the Mah?parinirv??a was compiled.) Then it is found in the Cundasutta where the Buddha is consoling ?nanda and Cunda immediately after the parinirv??a of S?riputta. Here too it is directly associated with the four establishings of mindfulness. We have already met it in the Attad?pasutta (S III 42f.) where it is associated with the development of insight. Otherwise it is found only in two verse contexts in the Khuddaka Nik?ya. One is in the (rather late) Apad?na (Ap II 543): Have self as your island and the the establishings of mindfulness as your pasture. Practising the seven factors of awakening, you will make an end of suffering. This is obviously based upon the same kind of sutta context we have been discussing. That leaves only the verse in the Mah?vagga of the Suttanip?ta (Sn 501) which refers to 'those who wander (vicaranti) in the world with self as their island, possessing nothing, completely liberated in every respect'. That is in parallel with the earlier verse at Sn 490 which has asatt? 'unattached' as a match to atta-. The context is one of describing the behaviour of enlightened beings. So overall it is found in a rather limited number of contexts and always in relation to rather advanced practice. On the meaning of d?pa itself, we find the simile spelt out in the P?r?ya?a of the Suttanip?ta (Sn 1092): Those who are overcome by old age and death are standing in a lake ... when a deadly flood has arisen. Tell me, sir, of an island for them and announce to me an island such that this might be no more. The answer is: Having nothing, taking nothing is that island with no match. I declare that it is nibb?na, the complete destruction of old age and death. Lance Cousins From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue May 11 01:47:49 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 03:47:49 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vimalakirti References: Message-ID: <00b901caf0de$41d49fe0$2101a8c0@Dan> >The only moment his silence becomes manifest (a nimitta) you call him >silent? What is silence? I never used that word, so that's not what I called him. His moment of non-talking was framed by his predecessors who explain what non-talking would say, and then invite him to do so. It is entirely contextual. Just as consciousness is always "consciousness of," emptiness is always "emptiness of" (the metaphysicians and tathagatagarbhins usually forget that). Sillence -- since you ask -- is: L'autre that allows a single hand to make a sound when it collides with l'autre. An island without jokes is a bleak vacation. Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue May 11 02:51:39 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 04:51:39 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE90941.1080802@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00c201caf0e7$2c3d58d0$2101a8c0@Dan> Lance, I'm not sure what you are trying to find objectionable in the statement: >It recurs numerous times in >> the Nikayas. You write: > Well not really, Dan. It is never found in the Vinaya or Abhidhamma Since these are not Nikayas, that's irrelevant. > Pi?akas, nor in the Majjhima and A?guttara Nik?yas. So the contexts are > quite limited. You neglect to mention that several of the occurrences of the utterance "attad?p?" are associated with S?vatthi, the capital of Kosala, suggesting he liked to say that when there (The Attad?p? sutta is situated there as well). So limited "contexts" -- yes. You then go on to account for what I would call (actually, I did call) *numerous* instances. In general English usage, according to my exposure to it, a "couple" means two, "few" means three or bit more than that, and "numerous" would be anything that is more than a few. Numerous is not synonymous with "ubiquitous." But thank you for listing the instances. I agree that the various appearances of the phrase -- particularly when viewed synchronically -- tend to give the impression of a phrase scattered about by later redactors rather than a redundant Buddha. That it struck the redactors as a noteworthy phrase deserving to be inserted on several (do you prefer that to "numerous"?) occasions suggests that an importance was attached to it early on. Since the Nibbana sutta is a later compilation (we seem to agree on this too), that may NOT be the original source for the quote. But who knows? Dan From selwyn at ntlworld.com Tue May 11 03:49:34 2010 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 10:49:34 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <00c201caf0e7$2c3d58d0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE90941.1080802@ntlworld.com> <00c201caf0e7$2c3d58d0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4BE9282E.2030906@ntlworld.com> On 11/05/2010 09:51, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > You neglect to mention that several of the occurrences of the utterance > "attad?p?" are associated with S?vatthi, the capital of Kosala, suggesting > he liked to say that when there (The Attad?p? sutta is situated there as > well). So limited "contexts" -- yes. Actually, I think the Attad?pasutta is the only one located in S?vatthi. > You then go on to account for what I would call (actually, I did call) > *numerous* instances. > > In general English usage, according to my exposure to it, a "couple" means > two, "few" means three or bit more than that, and "numerous" would be > anything that is more than a few. Numerous is not synonymous with > "ubiquitous." Well, I am not sure if they speak English on the island on the other side of the flood; so perhaps we had better agree to disagree on the usage. > But thank you for listing the instances. Of course, I managed to leave one out: the (Ukka)celasutta (S V 163). This is the immediately following sutta to the Cundasutta and is located on the bank of the Ganges 'among the Vajjis' immediately after S?riputta and Moggall?na have entered parinibb?na. Here too the reference to 'having self as an island' is immediately followed by the explanation of it as equivalent to practising the four establishings of mindfulness. > I agree that the various appearances of the phrase -- particularly when > viewed synchronically -- tend to give the impression of a phrase scattered > about by later redactors rather than a redundant Buddha. What is striking is that, if we ignore the two verse occurrences which do not give us much context, nearly all the references relate to the last days of the Buddha and to the loss or imminent loss of important teachers: S?riputta, S?riputta and Moggall?na, and the Buddha himself. I don't find any problem with supposing that the Buddha might have repeated this several times in his last year to make the same point. > That it struck the > redactors as a noteworthy phrase deserving to be inserted on several (do you > prefer that to "numerous"?) occasions suggests that an importance was > attached to it early on. Since the Nibbana sutta is a later compilation (we > seem to agree on this too), that may NOT be the original source for the > quote. But who knows? > I would understand that the Mah?parinibb?nasutta as we have it in Pali (or Sanskrit) is a compilation made before the full development of the legend of Asoka; so quite early. The compilation was made from a number of short suttas which were orally recited in a performative manner. Many of these short suttas are retained elsewhere in the extant versions of the Nik?yas. Others may have been lost. Lance Cousins From rhayes at unm.edu Tue May 11 06:29:06 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 06:29:06 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <4BE9282E.2030906@ntlworld.com> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE90941.1080802@ntlworld.com> <00c201caf0e7$2c3d58d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE9282E.2030906@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <68CD9D7B-CE33-4A56-A49B-1E2BB6C42813@unm.edu> On May 11, 2010, at 3:49 AM, L.S. Cousins wrote: >> In general English usage, according to my exposure to it, a "couple" means >> two, "few" means three or bit more than that, and "numerous" would be >> anything that is more than a few. Numerous is not synonymous with >> "ubiquitous." > > Well, I am not sure if they speak English on the island on the other > side of the flood; so perhaps we had better agree to disagree on the usage. It may help to recall that we Americans have a tendency to be literalists in as many matters as possible. So when an American uses the word 'numerous', he just means that it can be counted in some way and a number can be attached to it. Oh, and it should be added that zero counts as a number. This explains how it is that when a husband looks in the refrigerator for eggs and finds none, he reports to his wife that there are numerous eggs in the refrigerator (and then complains bitterly when she fails to buy eggs on the next shopping expedition). I'd say more, but the I have to catch the next fairy back to my island. Richard From jkirk at spro.net Tue May 11 10:53:48 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 10:53:48 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <4BE90941.1080802@ntlworld.com> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE90941.1080802@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <05AE1A59A8FF498386B58014D13238D3@OPTIPLEX> Thanks, Lance, for doing what the rest of us were too lazy to do: type 'island' into the search at access to insight and watch as the verses come up. (No doubt you already knew these anyway.) The figure of the lake being flooded in SN1092 is especially appealing. Joanna ___________ Well not really, Dan. It is never found in the Vinaya or Abhidhamma Pi?akas, nor in the Majjhima and A?guttara Nik?yas. So the contexts are quite limited. It is found, as noted, in the Mah?parinirv??asutta and once elsewhere in the D?ghanik?ya: at the very beginning of the Cakkavattis?han?dasutta where the whole sequence from attad?po onwards is cited and the explanation that one is attad?pa, etc. by practising the four establishings of mindfulness follows immediately. It is found in two additional places in the Sa?yutta Nik?ya. One is the Gil?nasutta (S V 152?154) which may appear to the reader as an extract from the same passage in the Mah?parinirv??asutta. (I myself think it is one of the short suttas from which the Mah?parinirv??a was compiled.) Then it is found in the Cundasutta where the Buddha is consoling ?nanda and Cunda immediately after the parinirv??a of S?riputta. Here too it is directly associated with the four establishings of mindfulness. We have already met it in the Attad?pasutta (S III 42f.) where it is associated with the development of insight. Otherwise it is found only in two verse contexts in the Khuddaka Nik?ya. One is in the (rather late) Apad?na (Ap II 543): Have self as your island and the the establishings of mindfulness as your pasture. Practising the seven factors of awakening, you will make an end of suffering. This is obviously based upon the same kind of sutta context we have been discussing. That leaves only the verse in the Mah?vagga of the Suttanip?ta (Sn 501) which refers to 'those who wander (vicaranti) in the world with self as their island, possessing nothing, completely liberated in every respect'. That is in parallel with the earlier verse at Sn 490 which has asatt? 'unattached' as a match to atta-. The context is one of describing the behaviour of enlightened beings. So overall it is found in a rather limited number of contexts and always in relation to rather advanced practice. On the meaning of d?pa itself, we find the simile spelt out in the P?r?ya?a of the Suttanip?ta (Sn 1092): Those who are overcome by old age and death are standing in a lake ... when a deadly flood has arisen. Tell me, sir, of an island for them and announce to me an island such that this might be no more. The answer is: Having nothing, taking nothing is that island with no match. I declare that it is nibb?na, the complete destruction of old age and death. Lance Cousins _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From selwyn at ntlworld.com Tue May 11 10:23:41 2010 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 17:23:41 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <05AE1A59A8FF498386B58014D13238D3@OPTIPLEX> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE90941.1080802@ntlworld.com> <05AE1A59A8FF498386B58014D13238D3@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <4BE9848D.1050003@ntlworld.com> On 11/05/2010 17:53, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Thanks, Lance, for doing what the rest of us were too lazy to do: type 'island' into the > search at access to insight and watch as the verses come up. (No doubt you already knew these anyway.) > The figure of the lake being flooded in SN1092 is especially appealing. Well, not quite. I don't use Access to Insight. I have facilities for searching Pali texts of my own. But no doubt it comes to the same thing. Lance From joy.vriens at gmail.com Tue May 11 11:44:21 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 19:44:21 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Back to Ithaca Message-ID: One last time, promised. Can dvi-appa apart from the sense "between two waters", also mean midwater, between two shores? E.g. half way between Samsara and Nirvana? The Buddha's monks took their refuge in the Buddha as a source of Dhamma. Guided by the Buddha, they have left Samsara, since they became bikkhus, but haven't reached Nirvana yet. They are midwater, the Buddha and his Dhamma being their island. The Buddha is about to die, their island is about to disappear, so they worry about finding themselves without an island between the two shores. Then the Buddha teaches the atta dipa sutta. Dhammapada 236 becomes more meaningful too. "Make an island for yourself. Hasten and strive. Be wise. With the dust of impurities blown off, and free from sinful passions, you will come unto the glorious land of the great." Although (Lance's) the P?r?ya?a of the Suttanip?ta (Sn 1092) seems to suggest the island IS nibbana. Those who are overcome by old age and death are standing in a lake ... when a deadly flood has arisen. Tell me, sir, of an island for them and announce to me an island such that this might be no more. The answer is: Having nothing, taking nothing is that island with no match. I declare that it is nibb?na, the complete destruction of old age and death. Joy > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue May 11 12:29:49 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 14:29:49 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan><4BE90941.1080802@ntlworld.com> <05AE1A59A8FF498386B58014D13238D3@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <005501caf137$f0e698e0$2101a8c0@Dan> > Thanks, Lance, for doing what the rest of us were too lazy to do: type > 'island' into the > search at access to insight and watch as the verses come up. Joanna, Better would be http://www.bodhgayanews.net for searches in Pali. If you put attad?p? (plural form) in the search box, you will get 9 hits (not counting the title of the attadipa sutta, which would make it ten). Three in the Digha Nikaya, five in the Samyutta, and one in a post-Nikaya text, the Sotabbamalini. If one does a search for d?pa alone, adjusting for different grammatical forms, one founds many instances, including *numerous* instances in the Apad?na, etc. A search for the 3 letter combo d?p yields 1966 hits, from which false positives would have to be weeded out. In a discussion that tended to reinforce the idea that the term occurs only twice, pointing out that at least seven additional instances are to be found justifies (for me) the use of the word "numerous." And these additional seven do not include the Sn and Ap. citations given by Lance. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Tue May 11 14:25:18 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 14:25:18 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <005501caf137$f0e698e0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan><4BE90941.1080802@ntlworld.com> <05AE1A59A8FF498386B58014D13238D3@OPTIPLEX> <005501caf137$f0e698e0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: On May 11, 2010, at 12:29 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > In a discussion that tended to reinforce the idea that the term occurs only > twice, pointing out that at least seven additional instances are to be found > justifies (for me) the use of the word "numerous." And these additional > seven do not include the Sn and Ap. citations given by Lance. That you spent time digging all this up justifies (for me) the use of the word "obsessive" (for you). But that's fine. I was assured by the wife of a fellow PhD candidate in Sanskrit that all the Sanskritists she had met (who were enough to be considered numerous) were obsessive-compulsive. She was a clinical psychologist and knew her diagnostic categories very well. When she broke the news of her diagnosis to me, I assured her that there are only two ways to learn Sanskrit reasonably well: be born a brahman or be mentally ill. Richard Hayes (not a brahman name) Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From selwyn at ntlworld.com Tue May 11 15:10:35 2010 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 22:10:35 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <005501caf137$f0e698e0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan><4BE90941.1080802@ntlworld.com> <05AE1A59A8FF498386B58014D13238D3@OPTIPLEX> <005501caf137$f0e698e0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4BE9C7CB.5060600@ntlworld.com> On 11/05/2010 19:29, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > If you put attad?p? (plural form) in the search box, you will get 9 hits > (not counting the title of the attadipa sutta, which would make it ten). > Three in the Digha Nikaya, five in the Samyutta, and one in a post-Nikaya > text, the Sotabbamalini. Yes, this is the problem with using search engines without reading the texts. That is why I spoke of contexts rather than instances. In the Mah?parinirv??asutta for example we have: Therefore dwell attad?p? (plural) etc. How does a monk dwell attad?po (singular) etc. In this way a monk dwells attad?po etc. Whatever monks dwell attad?p? now or after me etc. So we have four instances in one context. Or, two if you search only for the nominative plural. The repetitive nature of Indic oral literature means that counting hits in a computer search can be wildly misleading. > If one does a search for d?pa alone, adjusting for different grammatical > forms, one founds many instances, including *numerous* instances in the > Apad?na, etc. A search for the 3 letter combo d?p yields 1966 hits, from > which false positives would have to be weeded out. I get 14, 198 hits in all the Pali texts on my machine, but the majority will be false positives ? forms of d?pana and the like. > In a discussion that tended to reinforce the idea that the term occurs only > twice, pointing out that at least seven additional instances are to be found > justifies (for me) the use of the word "numerous." And these additional > seven do not include the Sn and Ap. citations given by Lance. But my point is precisely that your six additional instances correspond to only four contexts, one of which is identical to the passage in the Mah?parinirv??a and two more are similar in relating to the Buddha's last year. The remaining one simply quotes the attad?pa passage and relates it to the four establishings of mindfulness. (I have ignored the Sotabbam?lin? which I think is a post 1,000 A.D. text.) So my argument is that rather than a saying that occurs in numerous places in different contexts what we have is a passage which is found in a few rather specific contexts relating to the end of the Buddha's life. Lance Cousins From C.Rocha at uws.edu.au Tue May 11 20:10:16 2010 From: C.Rocha at uws.edu.au (Cristina Rocha) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 12:10:16 +1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] JGB - Special issue - "Buddhism Activism and Chinese Modernity" Message-ID: <3239A306F7C8F24693698F633C37BE540260C2A6@VALLE.AD.UWS.EDU.AU> Dear Colleagues, I am pleased to announce a special issue of the Journal of Global Buddhism . "Buddhism Activism and Chinese Modernity" (vol. 10) brings to the fore cutting-edge research on developments in Buddhism in China. The Journal of Global Buddhism is an on-line, open access refereed publication. The table of contents is as follows: Introduction: Buddhist Activism and Chinese Modernity By Hung-yok Ip The Power of Interconnectivity: Tan Sitong's Invention of Historical Agency in Late Qing China By Hung-yok Ip Chinese Buddhist Nuns in the Twentieth Century: A Case Study in Wuhan By Yuan Yuan The Influence of Chinese Master Taixu on Buddhism in Vietnam Elise A. DeVido Buddhism, Resistance, and Collaboration in Manchuria By James Carter Buddhist Contribution to the Socialist Transformation of Buddhism in China: Activities of Ven. Juzan during 1949-1953 By Xue Yu Writing History of Buddhist Thought in the Twentieth Century: Yinshun (1906-2005) in the Context of Chinese Buddhist Historiography By Marcus Bingenheimer Modernization and Traditionalism in Buddhist Almsgiving: The Case of the Buddhist Compassion Relief Tzu-chi Association in Taiwan By Charles B. Jones Socially Engaged Buddhist Nuns: Activism in Taiwan and North America Karma Lekshe Tsomo Toward A Buddhist Theory of Justice By James Blumenthal With best wishes, Dr. Cristina Rocha Managing Editor: Journal of Global Buddhism School of Humanities and Languages University of Western Sydney Author (with Michelle Barker) of Buddhism in Australia: Traditions in Change, Routledge, 2010? and Zen in Brazil: The Quest for Cosmopolitan Modernity, Hawaii University Press, 2006. http://www.uws.edu.au/centre_for_cultural_research/ccr/people/researchers/dr_cristina_rocha From brburl at charter.net Tue May 11 22:01:05 2010 From: brburl at charter.net (Bruce Burrill) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 23:01:05 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <4BE9C7CB.5060600@ntlworld.com> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE90941.1080802@ntlworld.com> <05AE1A59A8FF498386B58014D13238D3@OPTIPLEX> <005501caf137$f0e698e0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE9C7CB.5060600@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100511225827.0620f6d8@charter.net> I am using Eudora. Does anyone know why and what I do about the problem below? Though I suspect there is a Richard joke to follow, LC's msgs all look this: At 04:10 PM 5/11/2010, Lance Cousins wrote: > > If you put attad??p?? (plural form) in the search box, you will get 9 hits > > (not counting the title of the attadipa sutta, which would make it ten). > > Three in the Digha Nikaya, five in the Samyutta, and one in a post-Nikaya > > text, the Sotabbamalini. > >a?-?+"??^???????n?)????r??)??????????x- ?^?? ?b?r"?h??r??{l??az?ajx????q???^1?M???x???p???Z~??????? ??N?y?+y??V???M?@?[?jW?pz0v??jj'???V???M?,?x.?????'????????w??????M???j??z???K??ej?Zt?)4 >????~?????q*0z?y?.?)????z???w??{^???? >"*.???r'?'???^?????b??e???N?z?????zv????|????+jYb???????????Z??.??????)?r????????r????We?h?????x~??v??j????_??M?????i???????+v'?z??? >??f?????????~??v???(????q?"??nv)????????{-jw?)? ?)i?@???pj?!~?? ??z?^??&n?M??zWl????+l~?&?? ????h?+b??0??] ????????y?.???^5??b???jYm ???+^??(?l?i?b?????^????+r?)em????????????+??t?)jv???azX?xQ???.?????Z???u?m?????+q?az'^j?Z??^?????.??'?:W >?? >???u??????)????z??z?y?.???????????????????g?g?????az??u??????????'???r[?z?^Jv?t >\???????+????jw?f??"???????????Z?*.???i?b?*'jX????q??????'v?(?\?????{^??(?????+"u???????az?????{ax??4 >Z?)???@? jwm??????z???V??z???b?h????aj?Z???j??z??j)?? >'z???\???^??^j?Zt?)j????jwkzV?z????ay?.??-i?b?????)?~?gz? ??? >???m ?????js@?)?br-?)??????u?M???*&????g??+- ?kj?^??Z???)?????.??????????V?z??v'?z????'??m?Z??j????Z?? >{br?~??v)?}?+j?^??^r'?q?'??m???j????- ??v?? ?nu?Z?X?x??q????????v?????x%??[??ajY??Y?????&??i????Y?????&?f??f??X??)????u?Z From jkirk at spro.net Tue May 11 22:57:10 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 22:57:10 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20100511225827.0620f6d8@charter.net> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com><7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX><002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan><4BE90941.1080802@ntlworld.com><05AE1A59A8FF498386B58014D13238D3@OPTIPLEX><005501caf137$f0e698e0$2101a8c0@Dan><4BE9C7CB.5060600@ntlworld.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20100511225827.0620f6d8@charter.net> Message-ID: Did you try converting the messages to HTML? or setting it for unicode? -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Burrill Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 10:01 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] 9. Attadiipaa Sutta (Joy Vriens) I am using Eudora. Does anyone know why and what I do about the problem below? Though I suspect there is a Richard joke to follow, LC's msgs all look this: At 04:10 PM 5/11/2010, Lance Cousins wrote: > > If you put attad??p?? (plural form) in the search box, you will get > > 9 hits (not counting the title of the attadipa sutta, which would make it ten). > > Three in the Digha Nikaya, five in the Samyutta, and one in a > > post-Nikaya text, the Sotabbamalini. > >a?-?+"??^???????n?)????r??)??????????x-??^????b?r"?h??r??{l??az?ajx???? >q???^1?M???x???p???Z~??????????N?y?+y??V???M?@?[?jW?pz0v??jj'???V???M?, >?x.?????'????????w??????M???j??z???K??ej?Zt?)4 >????~?????q*0z?y?.?)????z???w??{^???? >"*.???r'?'???^?????b??e???N?z?????zv????|????+jYb???????????Z??.?????? >)?r????????r????We?h?????x~??v??j????_??M?????i???????+v'?z??? >??f?????????~??v???(????q?"??nv)????????{-jw?)???)i?@???pj?!~?????z?^?? >&n?M??zWl????+l~?&???????h?+b??0??]?????????y?.???^5??b???jYm????+^??(? >l?i?b?????^????+r?)em????????????+??t?)jv???azX?xQ???.?????Z???u?m????? >+q?az'^j?Z??^?????.??'?:W >?? >???u??????)????z??z?y?.???????????????????g?g?????az??u??????????'???r[ >?z?^Jv?t >\???????+????jw?f??"???????????Z?*.???i?b?*'jX????q??????'v?(?\?????{^? >?(?????+"u???????az?????{ax??4 Z?)???@? >jwm??????z???V??z???b?h????aj?Z???j??z??j)?? >'z???\???^??^j?Zt?)j????jwkzV?z????ay?.??-i?b?????)?~?gz????? >???m??????js@?)?br-?)??????u?M???*&????g??+-??kj?^??Z???)?????.???????? >??V?z??v'?z????'??m?Z??j????Z?? >{br?~??v)?}?+j?^??^r'?q?'??m???j????-???v????nu?Z?X?x??q????????v?????x >%??[??ajY??Y?????&??i????Y?????&?f??f??X??)????u?Z _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Wed May 12 12:04:32 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 12:04:32 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Eudora In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20100511225827.0620f6d8@charter.net> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE90941.1080802@ntlworld.com> <05AE1A59A8FF498386B58014D13238D3@OPTIPLEX> <005501caf137$f0e698e0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE9C7CB.5060600@ntlworld.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20100511225827.0620f6d8@charter.net> Message-ID: <44EEE6E4-BD2C-491A-99FC-3FEF611BC056@unm.edu> On May 11, 2010, at 10:01 PM, Bruce Burrill wrote: > I am using Eudora. Does anyone know why and what > I do about the problem below? Though I suspect > there is a Richard joke to follow, LC's msgs all look this: Sorry I can't come up with any Eudora jokes, Bruce. I'm even more sorry I can't come up with a solution to your problem. Years ago I used Eudora and occasionally had somewhat similar encoding problems with some messages. I always just assumed the people I corresponded with were incoherent idiots, but eventually it became clear that Eudora should probably have been named Dysdora. Solutions never became manifest to me. In the end, it dorve me to suicide. I should have thought the bugs would have been worked out of Eudora by now; it was more than ten years ago that I used it, well before my untimely demise. How does the following come out on your end? Do you get diacritical marks or gibberish? ya? prat?tyasamutp?da? prapa?copa?ama? ?iva? de?ay?m ?sa sambuddhas ta? vande vadat?? varam. Richard From jmp at peavler.org Wed May 12 15:13:39 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 15:13:39 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Eudora In-Reply-To: <44EEE6E4-BD2C-491A-99FC-3FEF611BC056@unm.edu> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE90941.1080802@ntlworld.com> <05AE1A59A8FF498386B58014D13238D3@OPTIPLEX> <005501caf137$f0e698e0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE9C7CB.5060600@ntlworld.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20100511225827.0620f6d8@charter.net> <44EEE6E4-BD2C-491A-99FC-3FEF611BC056@unm.edu> Message-ID: <0CA95F41-F5A6-4CF4-84DA-1D02A0C915B2@peavler.org> Eudora was probably the best mail application I ever used back when it was free. When Qualcom bought out the developers they made it expensive, complicated, and full of bugs. I abandoned it at that time, but remember the old Eudora with some fondness. On May 12, 2010, at 12:04 PM, Richard Hayes wrote: > On May 11, 2010, at 10:01 PM, Bruce Burrill wrote: > >> I am using Eudora. Does anyone know why and what >> I do about the problem below? Though I suspect >> there is a Richard joke to follow, LC's msgs all look this: > > Sorry I can't come up with any Eudora jokes, Bruce. I'm even more sorry I can't come up with a solution to your problem. Years ago I used Eudora and occasionally had somewhat similar encoding problems with some messages. I always just assumed the people I corresponded with were incoherent idiots, but eventually it became clear that Eudora should probably have been named Dysdora. Solutions never became manifest to me. In the end, it dorve me to suicide. I should have thought the bugs would have been worked out of Eudora by now; it was more than ten years ago that I used it, well before my untimely demise. > > How does the following come out on your end? Do you get diacritical marks or gibberish? > > ya? prat?tyasamutp?da? prapa?copa?ama? ?iva? > de?ay?m ?sa sambuddhas ta? vande vadat?? varam. > > Richard > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Wed May 12 15:29:30 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 15:29:30 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Eudora In-Reply-To: <0CA95F41-F5A6-4CF4-84DA-1D02A0C915B2@peavler.org> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE90941.1080802@ntlworld.com> <05AE1A59A8FF498386B58014D13238D3@OPTIPLEX> <005501caf137$f0e698e0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE9C7CB.5060600@ntlworld.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20100511225827.0620f6d8@charter.net> <44EEE6E4-BD2C-491A-99FC-3FEF611BC056@unm.edu> <0CA95F41-F5A6-4CF4-84DA-1D02A0C915B2@peavler.org> Message-ID: <9A82C617-6F4B-4B01-983E-C3F8FAF2984B@unm.edu> On May 12, 2010, at 3:13 PM, Jim Peavler wrote: > Eudora was probably the best mail application I ever used back when it was free. When Qualcom bought out the developers they made it expensive, complicated, and full of bugs. There must be some Sutta devoted to the topic of how improvements in software usually result in what we in the philosophy industry call by the technical term "crap." Just about the best editing software I ever used was Final Word, first produced by Mark of the Unicorn. It was a powerful, inexpensive and easy to use knock-off of emacs. Eventually Final Word was bought out by Borland and marketed as Sprint. It was still inexpensive, but it became harder to use and less powerful. Borland supported the product for a couple of years and then abandoned it. I became embittered and was driven by the experience to several years of Marxist ranting and raving, until Dan Lusthaus pointed out that Marxism was probably incompatible with Quaker pacifism and my other hippie Buddhist predilections. Once I had been straightened out by Lusthaus, I reasoned (with the help of Dharmak?rtian logic) that Final Word had been an imitation of emacs in the first place, so I might do well to go to the achetype itself. I've been using emacs ever since and still regard it with a reverence that most people reserve for the three jewels. Richard From roger60 at golden-wheel.net Thu May 13 17:12:33 2010 From: roger60 at golden-wheel.net (Roger60) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 09:12:33 +1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Eudora In-Reply-To: <0CA95F41-F5A6-4CF4-84DA-1D02A0C915B2@peavler.org> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE90941.1080802@ntlworld.com> <05AE1A59A8FF498386B58014D13238D3@OPTIPLEX> <005501caf137$f0e698e0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE9C7CB.5060600@ntlworld.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20100511225827.0620f6d8@charter.net> <44EEE6E4-BD2C-491A-99FC-3FEF611BC056@unm.edu> <0CA95F41-F5A6-4CF4-84DA-1D02A0C915B2@peavler.org> Message-ID: <001e01caf2f1$c967bea0$5c373be0$@net> Well here in Brisbane, using Outlook 2007 on Windows 7 the sanscrit text displays at is should with a dot below the h of yah And a dash on the first i of pratitya and so on.. Hope this does help somehow.. Are there really still somewhere someone using ten years old software and PCs ? All the best ! Thubten Wangchuk aka Roger Garin-Michaud -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Jim Peavler Sent: jeudi 13 mai 2010 07:14 To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Eudora Eudora was probably the best mail application I ever used back when it was free. When Qualcom bought out the developers they made it expensive, complicated, and full of bugs. I abandoned it at that time, but remember the old Eudora with some fondness. On May 12, 2010, at 12:04 PM, Richard Hayes wrote: > On May 11, 2010, at 10:01 PM, Bruce Burrill wrote: > >> I am using Eudora. Does anyone know why and what >> I do about the problem below? Though I suspect >> there is a Richard joke to follow, LC's msgs all look this: > > Sorry I can't come up with any Eudora jokes, Bruce. I'm even more sorry I can't come up with a solution to your problem. Years ago I used Eudora and occasionally had somewhat similar encoding problems with some messages. I always just assumed the people I corresponded with were incoherent idiots, but eventually it became clear that Eudora should probably have been named Dysdora. Solutions never became manifest to me. In the end, it dorve me to suicide. I should have thought the bugs would have been worked out of Eudora by now; it was more than ten years ago that I used it, well before my untimely demise. > > How does the following come out on your end? Do you get diacritical marks or gibberish? > > ya? prat?tyasamutp?da? prapa?copa?ama? ?iva? > de?ay?m ?sa sambuddhas ta? vande vadat?? varam. > > Richard > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Fri May 14 07:23:28 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 07:23:28 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Military/cultural contradictions in Thailand Message-ID: Another land of no Buddha? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/15/world/asia/15thai.html?ref=worl d http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2010/05/13/world/asia/0513-THAI. html?ref=asia From joy.vriens at gmail.com Fri May 14 09:55:33 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 17:55:33 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram Message-ID: Since a couple of years, the Tibetan Buddhist Center of Marseille is regularly receiving the visit of Buddhist teachers of other traditions (Khmer Buddhism, Forest tradition) and we have learned a lot of these exchanges. I have always been aware of the "dangers of syncretism" (Mme Blavatsky cum suis, New Age etc.) and have therefore been very careful to note and observe which teaching/dogma/approach is specific to this or that tradition or vehicle, what period, what country etc. etc. When I was still fully engaged in Tibetan Buddhism, everything was crystal clear and well ordered in boxes (grub mtha'). But since then, especially since our exchanges, everything has been going downhill: the order is making place for disorder, and some "syncretism" sneekily seems to attack the different traditions we have exchanges with from within. E.g. if one believes that Buddhism is closer to a philosophy than to a religion, the Buddha a simple human teacher of a 100% ontology-free path to happiness, an early precursor of European Enlightenment and rational thinking (Yoniso-manasikara), tirelessly fighting against superstitions, mantras etc., then Pali Buddhism was for you. At least so I believed. But I have been exposed to an Inner Buddha that has nothing to envy Tathagatagarbha, to Light or to Energy. I have assisted at blessing rituals no less spectacular than anything witnessed in Tibetan Buddhism. I have discovered the Paritta protection prayers, transfer of merit, a "seven branch prayer" and recently I have read what I can't describe differently than a prototype of something that looks like a tantra, the Jinapa?jaram, with rasa drinking heroes. The Mahavairocanabhisambodhi-sutra was probabably one of the next steps. The Jina's cage became a Jina. And this "tantra" seems to be part of daily chantings, no doubt with associated meditations/visualisations. You will find it in A chanting guide (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/dhammayut/chanting.html#jinapanjara) and in a French booklet "R?citations en Pali du matin et du soir". This was great news to me, no doubt old news for you, but I still felt like sharing it with you. Your Vajra-brother Joy From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri May 14 12:13:49 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 20:13:49 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BED92DD.4080900@xs4all.nl> On 14-05-10 17:55, Joy Vriens wrote: > You will find it in A chanting guide > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/dhammayut/chanting.html#jinapanjara) > and in a French booklet "R?citations en Pali du matin et du soir". > > This was great news to me, no doubt old news for you, but I still felt > like sharing it with you. > > Your Vajra-brother > Joy > > Thanks Joy, it is always good to read the thoughts of a fellow Buddhst on this. If there's such a chaos in the centre how much more is there on the streets. erik From jkirk at spro.net Fri May 14 12:01:13 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 12:01:13 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] New book based on Dr Ambedkar's writings Message-ID: <05655B55993F4595A9584545ECE1CFE1@OPTIPLEX> Review found at : http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=25315 Narender Kumar, Sukhadeo Thorat, eds. B. R. Ambedkar: Perspectives on Social Exclusion and Inclusive Policies. New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2008. 432 pp. Excerpts: ...Topical collections of Ambedkar's writings are relatively rare, and as such, the editors have produced not only a valuable resource for seasoned scholars and activists, but also an entree to sections of Ambedkar's oeuvre that have not been published individually, and are therefore comparatively little known. Thorat and Kumar present Ambedkar's writings over a nearly four-decade period (from 1919-55) as representing a straightforward elaboration of thought in which the forms of discrimination against untouchables, as well as the kinds of redress necessary, are expressed with greater perspicuity over time. ...Thorat and Kumar present Ambedkar's writings over a nearly four-decade period (from 1919-55) as representing a straightforward elaboration of thought in which the forms of discrimination against untouchables, as well as the kinds of redress necessary, are expressed with greater perspicuity over time. ...Dalits must themselves be personally involved in the legislature--they must be "law-makers" and not just "electors" (p. 70). [But] ...A Legislature is the product of a certain social condition, and its power is determined by whatever determines society. This is too obvious to be denied" (pp. 80-81). The Congressite claim to distinguish social and political questions rested on an interested refusal to acknowledge this fact of government....The Gandhian conception of untouchability, which disallowed political redress, focused exclusively on the religio-moral transformation of caste Hindus and denied the necessity of socioeconomic change, became the party line of Congress very early on. ... In the proximity of caste Hindus, emancipation for untouchables would be impossible--because the two were, according to Ambedkar, "separated by a fundamental and deadly antagonism" (p. 245). Sharing the village meant that "a perpetual war is going on everyday" (p. 248). ...only minorities identified unambiguously *by differences of religion* were granted a place in devolutionary negotiations. [Ambedkar's Scheduled Castes Federation] responded by staging satyagrahas against Congress meetings that only succeeded, in the fervor of "Quit India," in producing the *widespread view (actively promoted by Congress) that Ambedkarite politics was antinational*. [More in the review] _______________________________________ Comment: It was probably this slant of the Congress, to identify minorities based only on religion, that led Ambedkar to begin checking out various religions and finally settling on Buddhism as the way to go with his political leadership of the Dalits. We should not forget that decades later (not so long ago) the Hindu right parties declared Buddhism to be Hindu, another move to thwart/deny Dalit participation in politics and their conversions to Buddhism as real conversions. However, it isn't clear, from this review that the book said, or did not say, anything about the Buddhist end phase of Ambedkar's career and life. Still, as he is one of the 20th century heroes of Buddhism in its land of origin, the book might be worth a read. Joanna K. From jkirk at spro.net Fri May 14 12:44:11 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 12:44:11 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1A854A48DA284EA297883C8BB2613C46@OPTIPLEX> Isn't culture intriguing? Boxes are organised to suit organisational purposes, but the daily life of people on their own, unguarded by dogmatists, institutions, powers and the like, almost fractally proliferates the cultural imaginary. A new book about the overflowing cultural world of the Buddha's times, which I just got on ILL, is _Haunting the Buddha : Indian Popular Religions and the Formation of Buddhism_, by Robert Decaroli. OUP, 2004. Haven't been able to read it carefully yet, but a look through promises wonders of human prapancal ingenuity. This text, the Jinapanjara, seems to refer to a a Buddhist cosmic man, yes, a la many tantric drawings of cosmic sadhus with whom one identifies in meditation? As it is a Dhammayut text, didn't that order originate in Thailand, where the cultural imaginary has again been varied and proliferous. "...... having come to the victory seat, having defeated M?ra together with his mount"-- by the way, what or who was Mara's vahana? Cheers, Joanna _______________________________ Joy wrote: [...] When I was still fully engaged in Tibetan Buddhism, everything was crystal clear and well ordered in boxes (grub mtha'). But since then, especially since our exchanges, everything has been going downhill: the order is making place for disorder, and some "syncretism" sneekily seems to attack the different traditions we have exchanges with from within. ...You will find it in A chanting guide (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/dhammayut/chanting.ht ml#jinapanjara) From bankei at gmail.com Fri May 14 16:54:41 2010 From: bankei at gmail.com (Bankei) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 08:54:41 +1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi Joy I have been thinking the same thing lately. Theravada Buddhism as practiced in Asia is totally different to what the average "westerner" imagines it to be. There is the praying to the Buddha as a god, the many rituals, the role of the monk as a priest, the dominance of 'transfer of merit' type thinking etc etc. Is this a corruption of the 'pure' Buddhism, or has it always been this way? regards Bankei From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Fri May 14 23:13:30 2010 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 13:13:30 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] A good question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/TechandScience/Story/STIStory_52694 1.html W.F. Wong From joy.vriens at gmail.com Sat May 15 00:26:04 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 08:26:04 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: <4BED92DD.4080900@xs4all.nl> References: <4BED92DD.4080900@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 8:13 PM, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > On 14-05-10 17:55, Joy Vriens wrote: >> You will find it in A chanting guide >> (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/dhammayut/chanting.html#jinapanjara) >> and in a French booklet "R?citations en Pali du matin et du soir". >> >> This was great news to me, no doubt old news for you, but I still felt >> like sharing it with you. >> >> Your Vajra-brother >> Joy >> >> > Thanks Joy, > it is always good to read the thoughts of a fellow Buddhst on this. If > there's such a chaos in the centre how much more is there on the streets. > > erik > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From joy.vriens at gmail.com Sat May 15 01:03:31 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 09:03:31 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: <4BED92DD.4080900@xs4all.nl> References: <4BED92DD.4080900@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Hi Eric, > it is always good to read the thoughts of a fellow Buddhst on this. If > there's such a chaos in the centre how much more is there on the streets. But nothing can happen to us there in vajra armour or the Jina's cage. Hi Joanna, You know, the cultural imaginary is varied and proliferous here as well. I am trying to give a helping hand at the local Buddhist center. They try their best to offer fundamental practice and studies, but their is a strong pressure for more prapancal material. An initiation will always beat a more fundamental programme and therefore bring in more money. Same goes for teachings, the infernal couple karma and reincarnation plus Bardo teachings will always draw more people. They always are eager to hear more about it. Or actually they want to hear the same drab repeated over and over again. Since one never can beat people's fantasies and imagination about karma and reincarnation, no matter the amount of information about background, context and precisions, I would suggest to throw them out of Buddhism all together. They do more harm than good, except to some authors and conferenciers who make a living out of them. Limit karma to pratitya-samutpada. That's more than enough. There seems to be an indestructible link between money and prapanca and prapanca and money. Hi Bankei, I personally think it has always been like this. "Pure" Buddhism is a prapanca too :-). There is a French saying that goes "Chasser le naturel, il reviendra au galop" Ou "chasser le par la porte, il rentera par la fen?tre". I see Tantra very much as playing the same role that science plays now. When religion and science weren't separated, science was simply more magical, but having the same sort of consideration and respect as we feel for science nowadays. I see the flirting between Buddhism and Science (ken Wilbur and his electronically assisted samadhi, Mathieu Ricard helping to establish the brain wave frequency of happiness etc. and the next step trying to reproduce them with technology) as something similar than the flirting between Buddhism and Tantra in the past. Joy From jehms at xs4all.nl Sat May 15 01:50:06 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 09:50:06 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: References: <4BED92DD.4080900@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4BEE522E.5000602@xs4all.nl> On 15-05-10 09:03, Joy Vriens wrote: > I see Tantra very much as playing the same role that science plays > now. When religion and science weren't separated, science was simply > more magical, but having the same sort of consideration and respect as > we feel for science nowadays. I see the flirting between Buddhism and > Science (ken Wilbur and his electronically assisted samadhi, Mathieu > Ricard helping to establish the brain wave frequency of happiness etc. > and the next step trying to reproduce them with technology) as > something similar than the flirting between Buddhism and Tantra in the > past. > Hi Joy, I'm trying to figure out the philosophy of Michel Henry these days (he has been discovered recently in the Pays Bas) and I'm reading the new naturalizing phenomenologers from the US. The discours is changing, there's a lot of interest in embodiment these days, and that's the stuff Tantra works with. You and I come from a generation that believed in science and logic, now there's more interest in brain and body. I for myself found the Tibetan variety quite confusing and therefore quite interesting. I never took the time to immerse myself in the Theravada tradition, but I'm not surprised to read that they do more than just sit with their eyes closed. Besides there will always be a crowd looking for another Disneyland, canned mysticism etc, ready to spend a few bucks. And I'm afraid the temptation for many Buddhist leaders is too strong not to serve them what they ask for, the more because there are many wealthy burned out managers in the crowd. erik From zelders.yh at wxs.nl Sat May 15 04:21:54 2010 From: zelders.yh at wxs.nl (Zelders.YH) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 12:21:54 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100515121530.024ca8b0@wxs.nl> Joy wrote : >I am trying to give a helping hand at the local Buddhist center. >They try their best to offer fundamental practice and studies, but >their is a strong pressure for more prapancal material. An initiation >will always beat a more fundamental programme and therefore bring in >more money. Same goes for teachings, the infernal couple karma and >reincarnation plus Bardo teachings will always draw more people. They >always are eager to hear more about it. Or actually they want to hear >the same drab repeated over and over again. Since one never can beat >people's fantasies and imagination about karma and reincarnation, no >matter the amount of information about background, context and >precisions, I would suggest to throw them out of Buddhism all >together. They do more harm than good, except to some authors and >conferenciers who make a living out of them. Limit karma to >pratitya-samutpada. That's more than enough. That reads like an ad for Batchelor's latest book ! Herman From jkirk at spro.net Sat May 15 08:21:21 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 08:21:21 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: References: <4BED92DD.4080900@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <300B20C8E767482E98CF82F4E3B95A74@OPTIPLEX> Joy, yes! "Limit karma to pratitya-samutpada. That's more than enough. " Amen to that, bro. That's the way I've come to think of it. "There seems to be an indestructible link between money and prapanca and prapanca and money." ...aided and abetted by the capitalist ideology of endless production for endless profit, plus the values of ever more prapancik bureaucratic efficiency-- a circular trap system. If Buddhists organised teaching Buddhism as it was done back in the Buddha's day, today they'd meet in a park somewhere and offer free lessons, while not reminding people that giving dana is a good thing, as retreats always do. Without an institutional organisation with building(s), no dana plus fees would be necessary. The Buddha accepted donations of land and buildings but never did he ask for it, far as I know. In those times there was no shortage of labor in the class system of the day, so the parks and the temples could be maintained cheaply for the donors, who of course were also rich or monarchs --besides no plumbing or heating was necessary. Industrial "civilisation" has gone so far that it's trapped in its own effluents of various sorts including maximising prapanca and profit, as the mental and physical environments go down the drain. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Joy Vriens Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 1:04 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram Hi Eric, > it is always good to read the thoughts of a fellow Buddhst on this. If > there's such a chaos in the centre how much more is there on the streets. But nothing can happen to us there in vajra armour or the Jina's cage. Hi Joanna, You know, the cultural imaginary is varied and proliferous here as well. I am trying to give a helping hand at the local Buddhist center. They try their best to offer fundamental practice and studies, but their is a strong pressure for more prapancal material. An initiation will always beat a more fundamental programme and therefore bring in more money. Same goes for teachings, the infernal couple karma and reincarnation plus Bardo teachings will always draw more people. They always are eager to hear more about it. Or actually they want to hear the same drab repeated over and over again. Since one never can beat people's fantasies and imagination about karma and reincarnation, no matter the amount of information about background, context and precisions, I would suggest to throw them out of Buddhism all together. They do more harm than good, except to some authors and conferenciers who make a living out of them. Limit karma to pratitya-samutpada. That's more than enough. There seems to be an indestructible link between money and prapanca and prapanca and money. Hi Bankei, I personally think it has always been like this. "Pure" Buddhism is a prapanca too :-). There is a French saying that goes "Chasser le naturel, il reviendra au galop" Ou "chasser le par la porte, il rentera par la fen?tre". I see Tantra very much as playing the same role that science plays now. When religion and science weren't separated, science was simply more magical, but having the same sort of consideration and respect as we feel for science nowadays. I see the flirting between Buddhism and Science (ken Wilbur and his electronically assisted samadhi, Mathieu Ricard helping to establish the brain wave frequency of happiness etc. and the next step trying to reproduce them with technology) as something similar than the flirting between Buddhism and Tantra in the past. Joy _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From joy.vriens at gmail.com Sat May 15 08:25:25 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 16:25:25 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: <4BEE522E.5000602@xs4all.nl> References: <4BED92DD.4080900@xs4all.nl> <4BEE522E.5000602@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Eric, > I'm trying to figure out the philosophy of Michel Henry these days (he > has been discovered recently in the Pays Bas) and I'm reading the new > naturalizing phenomenologers from the US. The discours is changing, > there's a lot of interest in embodiment these days, and that's the stuff > Tantra works with. I didn't know Michel Henry. I will look into him. It's important meditation is grounded in the body. Forest monks keep stressing that point. In a certain type of meditation "physical" tricks and antidotes are applied to correct or stimulate. I personally prefer a more passive attitude, because if you push the logic of correction and/or stimulation to its extreme, there is no end. Yoga, hatha yoga, rasayana, ingestion of mercury and other substances. Soon electronic appliances etc. > You and I come from a generation that believed in > science and logic, now there's more interest in brain and body. I for > myself found the Tibetan variety quite confusing and therefore quite > interesting. Yes exactly. Fran?ois Julien is a popular French philosopher, who studied China and Chinese in order to approach Western philosophy from a totally different perspective. Whether that's true is another point (Fran?ois Billeter attacked him on that point). But the otherness of Buddhism and of Tibetan Buddhism in particular is a stimulation. > I never took the time to immerse myself in the Theravada > tradition, but I'm not surprised to read that they do more than just sit > with their eyes closed. Besides there will always be a crowd looking for > another Disneyland, canned mysticism etc, ready to spend a few bucks. > And I'm afraid the temptation for many Buddhist leaders is too strong > not to serve them what they ask for, the more because there are many > wealthy burned out managers in the crowd. Sadly true. There seems to be the beginning of a slightly more critical attitude towards (Tibetan) Buddhism within Tibetan Buddhism itself, because after some 30/40 years it's time for a first efficiency evaluation. The book of Donald Lopez etc. Shamar Rinpoche has expressed concern about the excessive role given to the lama in Europe and the States (see Youtube). Have a look at the following links for more information. An interview with Alan Wallace published in Tricycle, summer 2001 http://www.alanwallace.org/Tricycle%20Interview.pdf Another view on whether Tibetan Buddhism is Working in the West by Tara Carreon http://www.american-buddha.com/tib.bud.working.htm?signup (Users need to sign up) Tibetan Buddhism in the West by Dzongar Khyentse Rinpoche (October 2002) http://www.siddharthasintent.org/Pubs/West.htm Joy From jkirk at spro.net Sat May 15 08:29:37 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 08:29:37 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20100515121530.024ca8b0@wxs.nl> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100515121530.024ca8b0@wxs.nl> Message-ID: <096C9AB49C1E4773842B11A17EFCB17C@OPTIPLEX> So has anyone here read Batchelor's latest book yet--I read it and hope for a discussion. Anyone? Herman? Joanna Joy wrote : ............. I would suggest to throw them out of Buddhism all together. >They do more harm than good, except to some authors and conferenciers >who make a living out of them. Limit karma to pratitya-samutpada. >That's more than enough. That reads like an ad for Batchelor's latest book ! Herman _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From joy.vriens at gmail.com Sat May 15 08:36:01 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 16:36:01 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20100515121530.024ca8b0@wxs.nl> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100515121530.024ca8b0@wxs.nl> Message-ID: Hi Herman, > That reads like an ad for Batchelor's latest book ! I haven't read it. I did read Buddhism without beliefs, which I liked. My remark about karma and reincarnation is a boutade. It's not so much I want to get rid of them entirely. They have been a wonderful intellectual punching ball for me and still are. I do regret regret the excessive attention attributed to them and what many people do with them. Joy From Jackhat1 at aol.com Sat May 15 09:53:22 2010 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 11:53:22 EDT Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram Message-ID: <12f51.7bf9deca.39201d72@aol.com> Recently a friend of mine who is a Catholic Deacon returned from a trip to Japan. I give talks around the Midwest US on Buddhism which he has attended. Last week, he (very nicely) asked why what I taught was contrary to the real Buddhism found in Japan. What he saw at Japanese Buddhist temples was priest-like monks giving blessings to his congregation by sprinkling water on their heads with a long feather.. My friend said from a distance the Buddhist service looked exactly like the Catholic services he led back in the States. His guide told him that the Japanese were a very religious people and were usually both Buddhist and Shintoists. He was told they used Shintoism to live their lives and Buddhism for after they died. Luckily, my friend is going to attend a Vesak ceremony next week where I am talking and leading guided meditations in the morning and a Sri Lankan monk is doing the same in the afternoon. Surrounded by monks in robes, chanting and religious symbols, I will probably be given the stamp of official approval that my friend needs from me. jack From Jackhat1 at aol.com Sat May 15 10:18:34 2010 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 12:18:34 EDT Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram Message-ID: <140d5.1b71b388.3920235a@aol.com> In a message dated 5/14/2010 5:55:01 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bankei at gmail.com writes: I have been thinking the same thing lately. Theravada Buddhism as practiced in Asia is totally different to what the average "westerner" imagines it to be. There is the praying to the Buddha as a god, the many rituals, the role of the monk as a priest, the dominance of 'transfer of merit' type thinking etc etc. Is this a corruption of the 'pure' Buddhism, or has it always been this way? == A good question. Is Thera Buddhism that which is practiced now in mainstream SE Asia or that which is laid out in the Pali Canon? I have been told that this question has been played out in Thailand between the forest monasteries which try to follow the teachings as found in the Pali Canon and the city temples who tend toward corrupting the teachings in order to gain wealth.. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu was among those in Thailand leading the movement away from Buddha as a God, etc. Once he was approached by several people to pick lottery numbers for them. Doing this and getting paid for it is a common practice among some monks. Buddhadasa responded that they might have better luck as they left to ask one of the dogs handing around the temple gate . jack From brburl at charter.net Sat May 15 12:08:00 2010 From: brburl at charter.net (Bruce Burrill) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 13:08:00 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Eudora In-Reply-To: <9A82C617-6F4B-4B01-983E-C3F8FAF2984B@unm.edu> References: <574869.74248.qm@web63207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <7FD5E5BFA1FD4536B12256B5A080586A@OPTIPLEX> <002601caf09c$efed9650$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE90941.1080802@ntlworld.com> <05AE1A59A8FF498386B58014D13238D3@OPTIPLEX> <005501caf137$f0e698e0$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BE9C7CB.5060600@ntlworld.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20100511225827.0620f6d8@charter.net> <44EEE6E4-BD2C-491A-99FC-3FEF611BC056@unm.edu> <0CA95F41-F5A6-4CF4-84DA-1D02A0C915B2@peavler.org> <9A82C617-6F4B-4B01-983E-C3F8FAF2984B@unm.edu> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100515130349.0520b508@charter.net> Richard, Thanks for for the advice concerning Eudora. I think at this point, I'll stay with the devil I know. From jkirk at spro.net Sat May 15 15:00:30 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 15:00:30 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: References: <4BED92DD.4080900@xs4all.nl><4BEE522E.5000602@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <99EC24174120405F8C25E97C513FCA0A@OPTIPLEX> I just began to read this report by Carreon, and came across this peculiar assertion: "On the downside, no one wants to be an accused heretic, like Stephen Batchelor." My question to anyone who might know about this: who or what has labeled Batchelor with the title of "heretic"? Sounds preposterous. Joanna __________________________________________ Another view on whether Tibetan Buddhism is Working in the West by Tara Carreon http://www.american-buddha.com/tib.bud.working.htm?signup (Users need to sign up) Joy _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From zelders.yh at wxs.nl Sat May 15 18:54:03 2010 From: zelders.yh at wxs.nl (Zelders.YH) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 02:54:03 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> Joanna wrote : >So has anyone here read Batchelor's latest book yet--I read it and >hope for a discussion. >Anyone? Herman? >Joanna OK. First, I like Batchelor, and I find his 'Confession of a Buddhist Atheist' quite interesting. I read it a couple of weeks ago and this is the gist of what I got from it. The book contains an autobiographical sketch with some new facts, a virtual biography (nice !) of the Buddha in which B. presents some little known data from the commentarial literature, and an attempt at a construction of what might be called a critical buddhist existentialism, in which the notion of causality is crucial. There is of course causally conditioned existence, analyzed by the Buddha as the pratityasamutpada, then there are the Four Noble Truths that together form a causal chain in themselves, and there is the Noble Eightfold Path, again a causal chain acc. to B. . There seems to be nothing outside of conditioned existence in B.'s thinking. The notion of the 'Unconditioned' as a possible escape from conditioned existence is done away with. Awakening, liberation, or what shall we call it, is a kind of paradoxical freedom found within conditioned existence by using causality - (against itself I nearly wrote) - in a more intelligent way, following the Buddha's core teaching. B. suggests that this reading comes close to the Buddha's original intentions. All this without ideas like karma and reincarnation. Certain spontaneous enlightening experiences (let's not call them mystical) may strenghten one's sense of direction. "Transcendence" - for lack of a better word - is found in raw amazement ; why is there something and not nothing. 'Emptiness' is nothing but an empty abstraction and a notion like 'Original Mind' is a confusing phantasy. One might find it refreshing, one might be apalled. I think it is a brave intellectual exercise by a very serious very committed skeptical buddhist stoic. But it's late now in my timezone and I'm going to bed. Don't shoot the pianoplayer as he sleeps. Herman PS: Joy wrote : >My remark about karma and reincarnation is a boutade. It's not so much >I want to get rid of them entirely. They have been a wonderful >intellectual punching ball for me and still are. I do regret regret >the excessive attention attributed to them and what many people do >with them. Happy punching ! From rhayes at unm.edu Sat May 15 19:37:06 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 19:37:06 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Time to call it a day? Message-ID: Dear denizens, David Loy was in New Mexico this week and made several appearances in Santa Fe and Albuquerque. At a talk he gave at University of New Mexico, he said (somewhat casually) that perhaps the time has come to stop using labels such as Buddhism and to talk instead of human transformation or something like that. Perhaps focusing too much on Buddhism just gets in the way of the important task before us. I think Loy's comment may have been the fourth or fifth time in the past month or so I have heard someone say something very much along those lines. I've heard Buddhists say it may be time to drop the label "Buddhism," and I've heard Vedantins say much the same about "Vedanta", and Christians say much the same thing about "Christianity" and Quakers say the same thing about "Quakerism". Dropping labels that keep sticking to our fingers and gumming up the workings of our minds seems to be in the air these days. As a fan of Candrak?rti, of course, I am perfectly delighted by all these label-shedding intentions. The only thing about this trend I find a little disturbing is that people keep wanting to call it something. But why? Richard From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun May 16 02:53:38 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 10:53:38 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Time to call it a day? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BEFB292.3030304@xs4all.nl> Op 16-05-10 03:37, Richard Hayes schreef: > Dear denizens, > > David Loy was in New Mexico this week and made several appearances in Santa Fe and Albuquerque. At a talk he gave at University of New Mexico, he said (somewhat casually) that perhaps the time has come to stop using labels such as Buddhism and to talk instead of human transformation or something like that. Perhaps focusing too much on Buddhism just gets in the way of the important task before us. > > I think Loy's comment may have been the fourth or fifth time in the past month or so I have heard someone say something very much along those lines. I've heard Buddhists say it may be time to drop the label "Buddhism," and I've heard Vedantins say much the same about "Vedanta", and Christians say much the same thing about "Christianity" and Quakers say the same thing about "Quakerism". Dropping labels that keep sticking to our fingers and gumming up the workings of our minds seems to be in the air these days. As a fan of Candrak?rti, of course, I am perfectly delighted by all these label-shedding intentions. The only thing about this trend I find a little disturbing is that people keep wanting to call it something. But why? > > First of all it's facilitates conversation if you call something by a name. I find wordless discussions very boring. Secondly I don't see why anyone would call 'it' a day, I'm not sure what 'it' is, but calling it a day seems to be quite useless. I also don't understand why people should stop calling 'Buddhism' 'Buddhism'. For me the current practice is quite convenient. It's like changing your e-mail address if you change it, you only create confusion. Meanings of words change by themselves, which creates enough problems as it is. Politicians call things by different names to sneak in their bias in their audience, it's called ' framing' another word for it is ' rhetorics'. The reason for this forced name changing is that some people seem to think that history is just for high-school and not part of our life world. So in order to avoid discussions they hide their own musings into a new invented word, thinking themselves to be creative genii. This thought is in my experience usually based on ignorance and narcissism. erik also called soenam wangchuk From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Sun May 16 02:58:52 2010 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (wongwf) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 16:58:52 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Time to call it a day? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000601caf4d6$03183fe0$0948bfa0$@nus.edu.sg> Richard wrote: > I think Loy's comment may have been the fourth or fifth time > in the past month or so I have heard someone say something very > much along those lines. You will hear this time and again... that how new "-isms" originate: "We'll take the old, synthesis, innovate and create better and more Important things... a new-ism!" Well, good luck... W.F. Wong From joy.vriens at gmail.com Sun May 16 08:19:37 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 16:19:37 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: <300B20C8E767482E98CF82F4E3B95A74@OPTIPLEX> References: <4BED92DD.4080900@xs4all.nl> <300B20C8E767482E98CF82F4E3B95A74@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Hi Joanna, Last Thursday I spent with some Buddhist friends, among which an old friend who founded the Marseille Tibetan Buddhist Center in the seventies. Since then she got involved in the Forest tradition of Ajahn Chah. I said I didn't think whe had the right mentality any more in Europe to have mendicant monks begging for food in the street, but she said that one of Amaravati's monks (may have been ajahn Sucitto) travelled through Britain this ways and that his experience wasn't that negative. Perhaps I am too pessimistic about the modern Western human nature. The way the most important Buddhist centres have developed in France was mainly through buying property, building a temple, stupas, housing etc. Many of those centres seem to have financial problems. I believe in small scale projects, where it's easier to feel concerned. That being said, at the same time I see that we have approximately twenty different Buddhist groups in Marseille, One Laotian/Cambodgian community, two Vietnamese communities. Many of the groups have their own place, with rent, plumbing and heating as you write, and their own circle of Buddhists. Among friends we made a plan to try and have one place for all Buddhists. A place where ceremonies could be held, teachings be given, where classes could be given in pali, sanskrit, tibetan, chinese, where sutta and sutra studies could be organised that would allow us to have access to different views on the same sutras. Meditation classes with access to different (?) forms of meditation. And for exchanges. If the project goes through it will only be possible because of the particularly open position of the monks leading the Laotian/Cambodgian and Vietnamese communities. Both have given their initial agreement for a confederation to start with. We have all the same teacher, the Buddha they say. What I see as one of the greatest advantages is that this bigger identity, simply "Buddhist" could help us/some of us to overcome a smaller Buddhist identity/atta that only causes kilesa. Joy From jkirk at spro.net Sun May 16 08:40:54 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 08:40:54 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: References: <4BED92DD.4080900@xs4all.nl><300B20C8E767482E98CF82F4E3B95A74@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <3AD7E75C0A1542A6BE9A7B175262E450@OPTIPLEX> Joy, Great way to save money and make for wider sharing of communication and inclusiveness. Now Richard has dropped a new bomblet into the list, on labels and affiliations--do we need them? Looking forward to reading what denizens have to say about that idea, also to pondering it as well. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Joy Vriens Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 8:20 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram Hi Joanna, Last Thursday I spent with some Buddhist friends, among which an old friend who founded the Marseille Tibetan Buddhist Center in the seventies. Since then she got involved in the Forest tradition of Ajahn Chah. I said I didn't think we had the right mentality any more in Europe to have mendicant monks begging for food in the street, but she said that one of Amaravati's monks (may have been ajahn Sucitto) travelled through Britain this ways and that his experience wasn't that negative. Perhaps I am too pessimistic about the modern Western human nature. The way the most important Buddhist centres have developed in France was mainly through buying property, building a temple, stupas, housing etc. Many of those centres seem to have financial problems. I believe in small scale projects, where it's easier to feel concerned. That being said, at the same time I see that we have approximately twenty different Buddhist groups in Marseille, One Laotian/Cambodgian community, two Vietnamese communities. Many of the groups have their own place, with rent, plumbing and heating as you write, and their own circle of Buddhists. Among friends we made a plan to try and have one place for all Buddhists. A place where ceremonies could be held, teachings be given, where classes could be given in pali, sanskrit, tibetan, chinese, where sutta and sutra studies could be organised that would allow us to have access to different views on the same sutras. Meditation classes with access to different (?) forms of meditation. And for exchanges. If the project goes through it will only be possible because of the particularly open position of the monks leading the Laotian/Cambodgian and Vietnamese communities. Both have given their initial agreement for a confederation to start with. We have all the same teacher, the Buddha they say. What I see as one of the greatest advantages is that this bigger identity, simply "Buddhist" could help us/some of us to overcome a smaller Buddhist identity/atta that only causes kilesa. Joy _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From joy.vriens at gmail.com Sun May 16 09:22:59 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:22:59 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> Message-ID: Hi Herman, Thank you for the review of Batchelor's new book. It does sound quite paradoxical indeed and one may wonder like Richard does why not shed the Buddhist label. Buddhist existentialism sounds like a contradiction in terms. Existence is characterised by the suffering of birth, old age, illness and death. If there is only existence, where exactly is one to find the door to the immortal or simply to the end of suffering caused by the conditioned, which existence is? Or is there one existence but different levels of existence or somesuch, which could be a play on words? How many of the Four Noble Truths are left over? These are some of the questions that spring in my mind without having read the book. >The > notion of the 'Unconditioned' ?as a possible escape from conditioned > existence is done away with. > PS: Joy wrote : >>My remark about karma and reincarnation is a boutade. It's not so much >>I want to get rid of them entirely. They have been a wonderful >>intellectual punching ball for me and still are. I do regret regret >>the excessive attention attributed to them and what many people do >>with them. I can't do away with Unconditioned, with karma and reincarnation, with God etc. etc. because others, in word, though, and books, keep bringing them up. They will always be reference points, whether I believe in them or not. In my own thinking, reading and in my discussions with others, I will be confronted with them, challenged by them and I will see if I can do away with them, every time again. Joy From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun May 16 09:31:12 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:31:12 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: References: <4BED92DD.4080900@xs4all.nl> <300B20C8E767482E98CF82F4E3B95A74@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <4BF00FC0.2040208@xs4all.nl> Op 16-05-10 16:19, Joy Vriens schreef: > The way the most important Buddhist centres have developed in France > was mainly through buying property, building a temple, stupas, housing > etc. Many of those centres seem to have financial problems. I believe > in small scale projects, where it's easier to feel concerned. That > being said, at the same time I see that we have approximately twenty > different Buddhist groups in Marseille, One Laotian/Cambodgian > community, two Vietnamese communities. Many of the groups have their > own place, with rent, plumbing and heating as you write, and their own > circle of Buddhists. Among friends we made a plan to try and have one > place for all Buddhists. A place where ceremonies could be held, > teachings be given, where classes could be given in pali, sanskrit, > tibetan, chinese, where sutta and sutra studies could be organised > that would allow us to have access to different views on the same > sutras. Meditation classes with access to different (?) forms of > meditation. And for exchanges. If the project goes through it will > only be possible because of the particularly open position of the > monks leading the Laotian/Cambodgian and Vietnamese communities. Both > have given their initial agreement for a confederation to start with. > We have all the same teacher, the Buddha they say. What I see as one > of the greatest advantages is that this bigger identity, simply > "Buddhist" could help us/some of us to overcome a smaller Buddhist > identity/atta that only causes kilesa. > > I hope the project will succeed, that would be very refreshing. I started a general Buddhist centre in the 80-ies, and saw that it fell apart in different groups after a few years, even before I left. Some years ago a friend of mine was involved in buying shared real estate for all Buddhist groups in Rotterdam, but the project kept stuck on the meeting tabel. Encouraging examples of similar projects are the School of Life in London (with Alain de Botton) and the free university of Michel Onfray. Begging for food is an Indian hobby. In most big cities nowadays it are junkeys who are begging and giving them alms is little more than financing their habit. I think the Chinese model is more convenient for our times. The problem is how to become selfsufficient and one method might be to give courses and treatments in stressmanagement and psychotherapy. This means that Buddhist centres must be more open to society in general, something the world fleeing tradtional sangha has allways avoided. Traditional sangha counts on status, social capital, for its income, now it's time to use cultural capital, special skills and expertise. There's an army of unqualified quacks around whole make a living from self invented meditations and therapy, so it must be possible. I saw on the BBC a documentary about a vicar who tries to live without money, but it looks more like another attempt to get his name in the Guinness Book of Records than a serious reform, see http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/7687158/Rev-Peter-Owen-Jones-Taking-financial-advice-from-St-Francis-of-Assisi.html . erik From gary.gach at gmail.com Sun May 16 09:34:52 2010 From: gary.gach at gmail.com (Gary Gach) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 08:34:52 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] the night i called it a day Message-ID: only last year, i believe, did dr jon kabat-zinn "out" his mindfulness as being rooted in vipassana ... ... ... had he tried at the outset to convince (typically conservative) insurance company-behoven hospital administrators to teach forms of southeast asian buddhist meditation to undiagnosable incurable patients (or suchlike) he might never have gone past square one (or might have been shown the door). same for daniel goleman and "emotional intelligence" .... of course, it's "denatured" buddhism, but shows the kinds of inroads basic teachings can make when labels are not set in stone i'm still intrigued by the statistic wuthnow & cadge discovered : 1 in 8 americans avow having heard teachings of the Buddha which they consider to be a lasting influence in their lives (not that they're buddhist nor not) .... perhaps it's religion having given religion a bad name ... & rose by any other name smelling as sweet p.s. in this month's launch of patheos.com's new buddhist portal ... in my incumbency (incarnation?) there, i'm to bring in many articles by the end of june on "the future of buddhism..."... original or reprint ... so i welcome any nominations, suggestions, contacts, etc. ... other upcoming topics include fundamentalism and coming of age/rituals ... ... but yes it is, like a newspaper or magazine, supported by advertising which can engender adversity in hearts of some, so perhaps this may be the lst time i'll mention it at all in these blessedly uncommodified nonmonetized exchanges ... (i had nothing to do with their pre-existing library) .... i began by writing & posting two articles: is buddhism a religion (a philosophy a psychology etc) and many paths/one dharma (reprinted at the pbs website for "faces of the buddha," which continues to post articles) ... might bring a smile to some ... one dfharma reminds me to wish joy all good things on the new coming together and to wish all good things joy metta Gary Gach http://www.patheos.com/Religion-Portals/Buddhist.html http://buddhistchannel.tv http://word.to http://community.tricycle.com/group/tricyclecommunitypoetryclub/forum/topics/haiku-corner From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun May 16 09:46:45 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:46:45 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> Message-ID: <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> Op 16-05-10 02:54, Zelders.YH schreef: > Joanna wrote : > > >> So has anyone here read Batchelor's latest book yet--I read it and >> hope for a discussion. >> Anyone? Herman? >> Joanna >> > OK. First, I like Batchelor, and I find his 'Confession of a > Buddhist Atheist' quite interesting. I read it a couple of weeks ago > and this is the gist of what I got from it. > The book contains an autobiographical sketch with some new facts, a > virtual biography (nice !) of the Buddha in which B. presents some > little known data from the commentarial literature, and an attempt at > a construction of what might be called a critical buddhist > existentialism, in which the notion of causality is crucial. > There is of course causally conditioned existence, analyzed by the > Buddha as the pratityasamutpada, then there are the Four Noble Truths > that together form a causal chain in themselves, and there is the > Noble Eightfold Path, again a causal chain acc. to B. . There seems > to be nothing outside of conditioned existence in B.'s thinking. The > notion of the 'Unconditioned' as a possible escape from conditioned > existence is done away with. > Awakening, liberation, or what shall we call it, is a kind of > paradoxical freedom found within conditioned existence by using > causality - (against itself I nearly wrote) - in a more intelligent > way, following the Buddha's core teaching. B. suggests that this > reading comes close to the Buddha's original intentions. All this > without ideas like karma and reincarnation. Certain spontaneous > enlightening experiences (let's not call them mystical) may > strenghten one's sense of direction. "Transcendence" - for lack of a > better word - is found in raw amazement ; why is there something and > not nothing. 'Emptiness' is nothing but an empty abstraction and a > notion like 'Original Mind' is a confusing phantasy. > Hi Herman, do I detect a trace of naive realism in SB or is it just analytical philosophy? Causality has a very bad press in existential and phenomenological circles, even in Stoic ones for that matter. erik From jkirk at spro.net Sun May 16 10:15:32 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 10:15:32 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Time to call it a day? In-Reply-To: <4BEFB292.3030304@xs4all.nl> References: <4BEFB292.3030304@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1F9D0519982748FAAD3DE4130B136DDD@OPTIPLEX> "Time to call it a day" is idiomatic speech for ending something.....draws from an old pop song from the 30s (?)-- (Gary), and an older idiom (Richard). So whatever "it" is or was it is not being "called day". Joanna First of all it's facilitates conversation if you call something by a name. I find wordless discussions very boring. Secondly I don't see why anyone would call 'it' a day, I'm not sure what 'it' is, but calling it a day seems to be quite useless. I also don't understand why people should stop calling 'Buddhism' 'Buddhism'. erik also called soenam wangchuk _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From sjziobro at cs.com Sun May 16 09:32:08 2010 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 11:32:08 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: <3AD7E75C0A1542A6BE9A7B175262E450@OPTIPLEX> References: <4BED92DD.4080900@xs4all.nl><300B20C8E767482E98CF82F4E3B95A74@OPTIPLEX> <3AD7E75C0A1542A6BE9A7B175262E450@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <8CCC324148AADC1-724-D9F1@webmail-d080.sysops.aol.com> Joanna, Part of my thinking about names and naming, pejoratively termed "labels" and "labeling," is that, as nouns, they are essential for our ability to conceive, reason, and communicate the realities and rationales of things with others in both daily and technical registers of discourse. The problem does not originate in names and naming so much as in how we choose to interact with others by our use or manipulation of these names. The question, then, pertains primarily to the ethical or moral sphere, the sphere of right action, with attending questions of responsibility, loving, etc., though it is clearly allied to right thought forming the theoretical basis of action. It does not, to my mind anyway, concern meditative and contemplative practices per se or how we subsequently articulate whatever experiences arise from these practices. Stan -----Original Message----- From: JKirkpatrick To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Sent: Sun, May 16, 2010 10:40 am Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram Joy, Great way to save money and make for wider sharing of communication and inclusiveness. Now Richard has dropped a new bomblet into the list, on labels and affiliations--do we need them? Looking forward to reading what denizens have to say about that idea, also to pondering it as well. Joanna From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun May 16 12:35:49 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 20:35:49 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Time to call it a day? In-Reply-To: <1F9D0519982748FAAD3DE4130B136DDD@OPTIPLEX> References: <4BEFB292.3030304@xs4all.nl> <1F9D0519982748FAAD3DE4130B136DDD@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <4BF03B05.4080309@xs4all.nl> Op 16-5-2010 18:15, JKirkpatrick schreef: > "Time to call it a day" is idiomatic speech for ending > something.....draws from an old pop song from the 30s (?)-- > (Gary), and an older idiom (Richard). So whatever "it" is or was > it is not being "called day". > Thanks Joanna, for clearing that up. To be sure I was well aware of this, but I cannot resist from time to time to stretch the philologicals especially when the subject is calling names and labels and stuff. Erik also called ??? From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun May 16 12:38:30 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 20:38:30 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: <1A854A48DA284EA297883C8BB2613C46@OPTIPLEX> References: <1A854A48DA284EA297883C8BB2613C46@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <4BF03BA6.4070907@xs4all.nl> Op 14-5-2010 20:44, JKirkpatrick schreef: > > > "...... having come to the victory seat, having defeated M?ra > together with his mount"-- by the way, what or who was Mara's > vahana? > > Was it good intentions? Erik From jkirk at spro.net Sun May 16 13:02:19 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 13:02:19 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> Op 16-05-10 02:54, Zelders.YH schreef: Herman wrote: >[...] Awakening, liberation, or what shall we call it, is a kind of > paradoxical freedom found within conditioned existence by using > causality - (against itself I nearly wrote) - in a more intelligent > way, following the Buddha's core teaching. B. suggests that this > reading comes close to the Buddha's original intentions. All this > without ideas like karma and reincarnation. Certain spontaneous > enlightening experiences (let's not call them mystical) may strenghten > one's sense of direction. "Transcendence" - for lack of a better word > - is found in raw amazement ; why is there something and not nothing. > 'Emptiness' is nothing but an empty abstraction and a notion like > 'Original Mind' is a confusing phantasy. > Hi Herman, do I detect a trace of naive realism in SB or is it just analytical philosophy? Causality has a very bad press in existential and phenomenological circles, even in Stoic ones for that matter. Erik Hi Erik, My guess would be on the side of analytical philosophy--I can't imagine SB as na?ve about anything today. However, two things that I'd add to the discussion so far (based on memory because I already returned the book to the friend who lent it to me, but intend to buy my own copy as well): Condition/conditionality------One thing SB is very clear about, far as I read [prs. tense] him, is that he is completely anti or agnostic about anything metaphysical. He uses the term 'conditioned' often, but now and then he uses a term that I find to be much more satisfactory: 'contingent/contingency.' This term supports both the idea that dharmas are interdependent (conditioned origination he says, as I recall--referring to pratityasamutpada--( IMO the closest Thera Buddhism comes to a metaphysic), but SB prefers not to extend it's application to any metaphysical level, agnostically leaving it to perform contingently in his specific discussion contexts. In fact, throughout the book SB reiterates his refusal to deal with any of these ideas, including causality, as metaphysical. After reading SB, I intend to use contingent/contingency in thinking about pratityasamutpada. Did he not distinguish in this book the difference between causality in science and causality in Buddhism? Although not sure now as I no longer have the book to check, I'd guess that SB recognises multiple causation, a position well-established in the social sciences that gave up on single causation last century. (I sort of ignored what he was trying to do with existentialism because I never cared for it or its philosophers, so can't comment on that.) Being wholly agnostic with no holds barred on the karma and reincarnation dogmas, SB wrote most persuasively about both. Over the centuries, let's say, the term 'karma' has achieved the status of cosmic law and thus IMO is a metaphysical term. (On laws: not even in science today are laws thought to be ineluctably cosmic--they are all contingent or thought to be, eventually). I think SB agrees. Even the Buddha told someone in one text not to think too hard on't. Since SB does not hold with a "soul" (jiva) idea, and he has quite a discussion on this topic, he says he's agnostic on the reincarnation/rebirth dogma. He's not the only writer on Buddhism to point out the contradiction of anatta (as in Thera Buddhism) and the jiva notion. I was sorry that he did not consider the ideas on rebirth (basically, falling off the Buddha wagon of practice is a rebirth---a view not founded on some metaphysical reality ) as found in Buddhadasa. Anyway, my 2 cents. Thanks for the discussions so far.... Best, Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sun May 16 13:13:32 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 13:13:32 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: <8CCC324148AADC1-724-D9F1@webmail-d080.sysops.aol.com> References: <4BED92DD.4080900@xs4all.nl><300B20C8E767482E98CF82F4E3B95A74@OPTIPLEX><3AD7E75C0A1542A6BE9A7B175262E450@OPTIPLEX> <8CCC324148AADC1-724-D9F1@webmail-d080.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <5B8024EFA2844430925402DF5699A0D5@OPTIPLEX> Hi Stan, I used the term 'label' in a general sense, *not* as pejorative terms. I was using short-hand. I'm not at all naive about the linguistic and thought functions of words or names. As Richard and Loy asked the question, names per se were the least of their concerns, I should think. Die-hard identifications associated with exclusionistic and non-mutual communication behavior strike me as part of the problem they were getting at. So we agree about the problem. Joanna Joanna, Part of my thinking about names and naming, pejoratively termed "labels" and "labeling," is that, as nouns, they are essential for our ability to conceive, reason, and communicate the realities and rationales of things with others in both daily and technical registers of discourse. The problem does not originate in names and naming so much as in how we choose to interact with others by our use or manipulation of these names. The question, then, pertains primarily to the ethical or moral sphere, the sphere of right action, with attending questions of responsibility, loving, etc., though it is clearly allied to right thought forming the theoretical basis of action. It does not, to my mind anyway, concern meditative and contemplative practices per se or how we subsequently articulate whatever experiences arise from these practices. Stan Joy, Great way to save money and make for wider sharing of communication and inclusiveness. Now Richard has dropped a new bomblet into the list, on labels and affiliations--do we need them? Looking forward to reading what denizens have to say about that idea, also to pondering it as well. Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Sun May 16 13:16:40 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 13:16:40 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: <4BF03BA6.4070907@xs4all.nl> References: <1A854A48DA284EA297883C8BB2613C46@OPTIPLEX> <4BF03BA6.4070907@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <774516B0DB6A4A05B309DA86F9A1C53D@OPTIPLEX> Op 14-5-2010 20:44, JKirkpatrick schreef: > > > "...... having come to the victory seat, having defeated M?ra > together with his mount"-- by the way, what or who was Mara's vahana? > > Was it good intentions? Erik Could be-- now what kind of a beast would look like that? We could invent a whole new iconography. J From rhayes at unm.edu Sun May 16 14:32:48 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 14:32:48 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: <8CCC324148AADC1-724-D9F1@webmail-d080.sysops.aol.com> References: <4BED92DD.4080900@xs4all.nl><300B20C8E767482E98CF82F4E3B95A74@OPTIPLEX> <3AD7E75C0A1542A6BE9A7B175262E450@OPTIPLEX> <8CCC324148AADC1-724-D9F1@webmail-d080.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <12A2F34F-C272-47A4-BEA8-82FA0C55114B@unm.edu> On May 16, 2010, at 9:32 AM, sjziobro at cs.com wrote: > Part of my thinking about names and naming, pejoratively termed "labels" and "labeling," is that, as nouns, they are essential for our ability to conceive, reason, and communicate the realities and rationales of things with others in both daily and technical registers of discourse. The problem does not originate in names and naming so much as in how we choose to interact with others by our use or manipulation of these names. I think thee has put thy finger exactly on what those who use the term "labels" pejoratively are pejorating. It is not the use of terms as such that anyone decries; for heaven's sake, EVERYONE knows that labels and other linguistic items are handy on moving day. It will never do just to toss things into boxes without a hint of which box contains the box opener. When people caution against labeling, they are warning not against using language at all, but against taking labels as absolutes or as etiquettes written in indelible ink that cannot be washed off. > The question, then, pertains primarily to the ethical or moral sphere, the sphere of right action, with attending questions of responsibility, loving, etc., though it is clearly allied to right thought forming the theoretical basis of action. Yes, exactly. It is when a label becomes an excuse for not loving, or for not respecting or for not having compassion, that it is pernicious. (Admittedly, only Republicans use labels in that pernicious way.) When Stephen Batchelor was here, someone in the audience from a local Vipassan? group was terribly worried about what Stephen was saying, since she did not think it sounded enough like Buddhism. Then when David Loy was here, the same woman was terribly worried that what he was saying sounded too much like Mah?y?na (and it was pretty clear from her comments that anything that wears the Mah?y?na label probably doesn't deserve to wear the Buddhism label.) THAT sort of hand-wringing about labels, where one concludes that someone is not wearing the right label and thus cannot be saying anything worth hearing, is what gets in the way of getting on with getting on with the way. Of course, we see plenty of this counterproductive labeling in American politics. Put the label "socialist" or "liberal" on a policy, and you can be sure 49.5% of Americans will immediately revile it. Take off the label "inheritance tax" and replace it with "death tax", and some people will grind their teeth until they spit blood. In the circles I run around in (and believe me, I do run around in circles), labels like "conservative" or "capitalist" bring on all manner of perfectly idiotic reactions that make one ashamed of being part of the same species as those who are reacting. The kind of irrational reaction that can be labeled "labeling" is not restricted to the application of words, of course. Some time ago I recall a number of Quakers expressing deep reservations about meeting in a Protestant church, because there was a small cross in the entrance way, and the building had a steeple. The presence of a cross was immediately seen as just the kind of "idolatry" that 17th century Quakers despised, and a building with a steeple is a "church", and any bloody fool knows that Quakers do not worship in churches but choose instead to worship in meeting houses. This kind of "reasoning" keeps reasonable men and women away in droves, methinks, and, unfortunately, such "reasoning" is so commonplace in organized religions as to seem almost essential to institutional survival. This could be why so many people these days are hankering for disorganized religion. Richard From lidewij at gmail.com Sun May 16 12:47:02 2010 From: lidewij at gmail.com (Lidewij Niezink) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 20:47:02 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Time to call it a day? In-Reply-To: <4BF03B05.4080309@xs4all.nl> References: <4BEFB292.3030304@xs4all.nl> <1F9D0519982748FAAD3DE4130B136DDD@OPTIPLEX> <4BF03B05.4080309@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I agree with Paul Watzlawick (and thus not with herr Freud) that the 'why'-question is a useless waste of time. Could it be that the 'why'-question is of the same mental chewing gum as the need to label? cheers, Lidewij On 16 May 2010 20:35, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > Op 16-5-2010 18:15, JKirkpatrick schreef: >> "Time to call it a day" is idiomatic speech for ending >> something.....draws from an old pop song from the 30s (?)-- >> (Gary), ?and an older idiom (Richard). So whatever "it" is or was >> it is not being "called day". >> > Thanks Joanna, for clearing that up. To be sure I was well aware of > this, but I cannot resist from time to time to stretch the philologicals > especially when the subject is calling names and labels and stuff. > > Erik > ?also called ??? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- Milton said: "They also serve who only stand and wait." http://www.linkedin.com/in/lniezink From sjziobro at cs.com Sun May 16 13:52:52 2010 From: sjziobro at cs.com (sjziobro at cs.com) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 15:52:52 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: <5B8024EFA2844430925402DF5699A0D5@OPTIPLEX> References: <4BED92DD.4080900@xs4all.nl><300B20C8E767482E98CF82F4E3B95A74@OPTIPLEX><3AD7E75C0A1542A6BE9A7B175262E450@OPTIPLEX><8CCC324148AADC1-724-D9F1@webmail-d080.sysops.aol.com> <5B8024EFA2844430925402DF5699A0D5@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <8CCC34880F77736-724-F57F@webmail-d080.sysops.aol.com> Hey Joanna, For some reason I hadn't adverted to your use of the terms "labels." In fact, Richard didn't use it in a pejorative sense, either. It is best just to retract that observation on my part. But we do agree upon the problem, which ultimately results in a refusal to accept the Other as other with a concomitant effort to make that other into our own image and likeness. The question of whether refusing to use a specific name or label resolves this problem is still open. That type of solution strikes me as naive inasmuch as it does not require one to address the more fundamental questions concerning identity, responsibility, and a being for the other as a radical expression of wisdom and compassion. Stan -----Original Message----- From: JKirkpatrick To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Sent: Sun, May 16, 2010 3:13 pm Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram Hi Stan, I used the term 'label' in a general sense, *not* as pejorative terms. I was using short-hand. I'm not at all naive about the linguistic and thought functions of words or names. As Richard and Loy asked the question, names per se were the least of their concerns, I should think. Die-hard identifications associated with exclusionistic and non-mutual communication behavior strike me as part of the problem they were getting at. So we agree about the problem. Joanna Joanna, Part of my thinking about names and naming, pejoratively termed "labels" and "labeling," is that, as nouns, they are essential for our ability to conceive, reason, and communicate the realities and rationales of things with others in both daily and technical registers of discourse. The problem does not originate in names and naming so much as in how we choose to interact with others by our use or manipulation of these names. The question, then, pertains primarily to the ethical or moral sphere, the sphere of right action, with attending questions of responsibility, loving, etc., though it is clearly allied to right thought forming the theoretical basis of action. It does not, to my mind anyway, concern meditative and contemplative practices per se or how we subsequently articulate whatever experiences arise from these practices. Stan Joy, Great way to save money and make for wider sharing of communication and inclusiveness. Now Richard has dropped a new bomblet into the list, on labels and affiliations--do we need them? Looking forward to reading what denizens have to say about that idea, also to pondering it as well. Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From zelders.yh at wxs.nl Sun May 16 14:51:02 2010 From: zelders.yh at wxs.nl (Zelders.YH) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 22:51:02 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516223717.025102f0@wxs.nl> Erik wrote : >Hi Herman, >do I detect a trace of naive realism in SB or is it just analytical >philosophy? Causality has a very bad press in existential and >phenomenological circles, even in Stoic ones for that matter. Forget what I wrote. Read the book for yourself, Erik, you might like it. I think that would count as a cause and a subsequent effect in any circle. Herman From zelders.yh at wxs.nl Sun May 16 16:50:16 2010 From: zelders.yh at wxs.nl (Zelders.YH) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 00:50:16 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516205740.024f9e18@wxs.nl> Joy wrote : >Buddhist existentialism sounds like a contradiction in terms. You think so ? >Existence is characterised by the suffering of >birth, old age, illness and death. If there is only existence, where >exactly is one to find the door to the immortal or simply to the end >of suffering caused by the conditioned, which existence is? Or is >there one existence but different levels of existence or somesuch, >which could be a play on words? How many of the Four Noble Truths are >left over? These are some of the questions that spring in my mind >without having read the book. There's all kind of buddhisms as you yourself brought forward a few days ago. Batchelor's buddhism is not for everybody, that's for sure. I'm sure it is not his ambition to become the buddhist prophet of the 21st century. The book contains his personal conclusions after forty years of deep commitment to buddhist teachings and to meditation practice, and it gives the impression that it arose out of some strongly felt inner necessity. The man is quite knowledgeable and experienced. What more would one wish for an interesting read ? Then, reading the book, one can agree or disagree with this or that but surely a lot of one's (pre-)suppositions will be challenged, and isn't that always a good thing ? Speaking for myself, there is one thing in the book that greatly puzzles me : in my view the notion of karma - in the sense of intention - is essential to his scheme. That's not the karma of your "infernal" couple 'karma-and-reincarnation' of a few posts ago. Karma per se seems to me to be a very useful notion in Batchelor's philosophy. I wonder why he doesn't use it. Have I gotten it all wrong ? >I can't do away with Unconditioned, with karma and reincarnation, with >God etc. etc. because others, in word, though, and books, keep >bringing them up. They will always be reference points, whether I >believe in them or not. In my own thinking, reading and in my >discussions with others, I will be confronted with them, challenged by >them and I will see if I can do away with them, every time again. In a talk during the presentation tour in answer to a question from the audience Batchelor admitted that certain mythical or metaphysical notions may have some positive effect in the lives of some people, but the drift of his book is that he prefers his own buddhism sans. Herman From joy.vriens at gmail.com Mon May 17 00:09:02 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 08:09:02 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jinapanjaram In-Reply-To: <4BF00FC0.2040208@xs4all.nl> References: <4BED92DD.4080900@xs4all.nl> <300B20C8E767482E98CF82F4E3B95A74@OPTIPLEX> <4BF00FC0.2040208@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Erik, > I hope the project will succeed, that would be very refreshing. I > started a general Buddhist centre in the 80-ies, and saw that it fell > apart in different groups after a few years, even before I left. Yes, and if one listens to the Buddha or simply sees for oneself that seems to be the usual fate for anything gathering. At the moment we have three different permanent groups and that is functioning quite well at the moment, since people mix and participate in the activities of the others, which is not that common for different schools of Tibetan Buddhism. But for that, we did have to separate from a Tibetan lama, who was trying to impose his mark too much and who didn't consider the visits of "non-Mahayana" Buddhists favourably. Apart from that, we have very regular visits of a Cambodgian monk, the venerable Bou Samyos, who is an extraordinary personality. He comes closest to what I imagine a bodhisattva to be. So "Polytheism" looks like the key to success. > The problem is how to become selfsufficient and one method > might be to give courses and treatments in stressmanagement and > psychotherapy. We do have the usual courses of yoga, qi kong for extra income. I personally am less happy with an alternative form of psychotherapy that one of the members offers and wouldn't welcome stressmanagement either. Lifestyle is important and especially in Buddhism, which aims to remove the causes of stress, rather than teaching tricks how to better cope with stress. Forms of Buddhism that want to stick as closely as possible to the hectic modern lifestyle (thus apparently cautioning it) don't appeal to me. But that's me. Joy From joy.vriens at gmail.com Mon May 17 01:31:45 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 09:31:45 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Herman, I am very much in favour of SB's critical and creative thinking, without agreeing with everything he writes. It's stimulating, it creates debates and therefore invites to more reflection. I am naturally inclined to follow his line of thinking about karma-and-reincarnation and wouldn't even call my natural inclination as agnostic, but I use them as useful perspectives. Like I can use the idea of Nature. If Nature is everything present to us, are we equally present to her? We only have five tiny deficient sensory holes and a coordinating feature to grasp Nature. There is what is present to us and what we are able to grasp or choose to grasp. What about that which falls out of our scope? What about grasping everything in its totality? Impossible, I agree, but we can still talk about it and think about it. It can even be very useful as a perspective. Thinking about Totality (the elephant) is metaphysics. One can get rid of it, but one will lose what I consider to be a very useful perspective. Look at how drawings in perspective were made in the past (before CAD). Everything in the drawing is existence, but the drawing is in perspective thanks to vanishing points outside the drawing. Does a horizon exist? Has anyone ever reached the horizon? Has anyone ever gone all the way to the polar star? Would navigation have been possible in the past without it? Etc. etc. (this means I don't have time and should go to work). Even a "scientific" causality (if it existed) would have a hopelessly limited scope, and because of the limited scope would be partially blind. It could tell you everything about the elephant's trunk. "Everything" being whatever is of interest to them in the elephant's trunk and that would be considered "on topic" and within the scope. Same goes for karma-and-reincarnation with its extremely limited scope. As a pedagogical perspective it can have some use. IMO it's for that reason that Buddhism decided that it is the intention behind the act and not the act itself that creates the effect, which otherwise would have been a serious mistake. An "act" has millions of effects in all directions. I don't know about the effect nor the direction of the effect of the intention-behind-the act. Karma-and-reincarnation only considers the intention behind the act of an individual and a very limited scope of specific effects of that intention on the very same (?) individual. It's more about psychology than about causality or reality. Everything is coloured through one's psychology of course. So there can be some truth and value in this perspective if handled with care. Same goes for the Unconditioned. I can't see how SB can get by without mythical, metaphysical... teleological notions? What is motivating him, what does he want to achieve? What is his perspective? Joy From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 17 07:20:52 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 07:20:52 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl><4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl><2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> Joy: I can't see how SB can get by without mythical, metaphysical... teleological notions? What is motivating him, what does he want to achieve? What is his perspective? JK: As Batchelor says in the book, his goal is to live a full and peaceful human life, as he sees it. He favors science, so the mythical and the mystagogic don't appeal to him because they cannot be validated empirically. He still thinks of himself as some kind of a Buddhist (so not dumping the self-identification "label"), which is shown also by the company he keeps--like video retreats on Tricycle and around the world appearances. His dedication and courage are impressive. On the Tricycle page there's a link to him debating reincarnation with Thurman, who trots out the usual 'proofs' and arguments, which Batchelor either quietly demolishes or simply doesn't reply to. If anyone ever called him a heretic, it must have been some lama. However, so far nobody has posted a source for that claim, so maybe it never happened. He'd not be bothered anyway. Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 17 07:25:22 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 07:25:22 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist influence in US Message-ID: <8D6582FCD8FA4DF7A462B96A9154F989@OPTIPLEX> Gary mentioned Wuthnow & Cadge, not having heard of them before, I found this link which is probably what Gary referred to: http://tinyurl.com/2cj5vy2 Measuring Buddhist Influence in America Posted: Monday February 14, 2005 By Tricycleblog [etc] From rhayes at unm.edu Mon May 17 07:55:47 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 07:55:47 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl><4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl><2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <363CA906-E91D-42B8-9303-0D9B2008C76C@unm.edu> On May 17, 2010, at 7:20 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > If anyone ever called him a heretic, it must have been some lama. > However, so far nobody has posted a source for that claim, so > maybe it never happened. He'd not be bothered anyway. I can't imagine that any Buddhist has ever called Batchelor a heretic. Heresy is not a Buddhist construct. For a Buddhist to speak of heresy would be, well, heretical. My guess is that Batchelor himself has said, probably jokingly, that Buddhists think of him as a heretic. Richard From Jackhat1 at aol.com Mon May 17 08:10:33 2010 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 10:10:33 EDT Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor Message-ID: <118e5.3e1f5a92.3922a859@aol.com> In a message dated 5/17/2010 2:32:06 A.M. Central Daylight Time, joy.vriens at gmail.com writes: I can't see how SB can get by without mythical, metaphysical... teleological notions? What is motivating him, what does he want to achieve? What is his perspective? == His goal is to teach how to alleviate suffering. He feels this is done best by going back to the original teachings of the Buddha and cutting out all the cultural, mythical, metaphysical and teleological notions that have accrued over the years. What "mythical, metaphysical...teleological notions" do you think necessary to the Buddha's teachings? By the way, _http://www.upaya.org/dharma/page/6/_ (http://www.upaya.org/dharma/page/6/) has downloadable talks by Steven and Martine in a 14 part series called Godless Religion or Devout Atheism. I think it parallels much of his new book. jack From joy.vriens at gmail.com Mon May 17 08:22:06 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:22:06 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Joanna, > As Batchelor says in the book, his goal is to live a full and > peaceful human life, as he sees it. > He favors science, so the mythical and the mystagogic don't > appeal to him because they cannot be validated empirically. I think the goal of most people is to live a full life and the goal of many people to live a peaceful life. I don't see how either science on the one side or the mythical and the mystagogic on the other side are necessary ingredients to live a full and peaceful life. I would certainly consider my own life less full if any of the two were missing, but perhaps that is because I am not living a genuinely "full life" :-) If he is presenting himself as a Buddhist teacher, he must have some advice for Buddhists about how to contribute to that goal with a Buddhist philosophy and using Buddhist methods. There must be something sufficiently Buddhist somewhere for him to call himself a Buddhist. Audience, goal, methods, philosophy... Perhaps he would have a larger audience, if he didn't call himself a Buddhist teacher. Another possibility is that he calls himself Buddhist because he is in dialogue with Buddhists. Searching the boundaries, pushing them. I could be talking about myself... > He still thinks of himself as some kind of a Buddhist (so not > dumping the self-identification "label"), which is shown also by > the company he keeps--like video retreats on Tricycle and around > the world appearances. Yes, there seems to be little point to throw off labels. Whether we like it or not, we do have a past, we have build relationships and we are where we are because of that. > His dedication and courage are impressive. He does look driven. That is why I wonder if the goal as it set out above is his complete goal. > On the Tricycle page there's a link to him debating reincarnation > with Thurman, who trots out the usual 'proofs' and arguments, > which Batchelor either quietly demolishes or simply doesn't reply > to. I hope Thurman was sitting behind a screen. His mad look would have been enough to destabilise me in a debate. I guess this qualifies as ad hominem? Please consider this sentence as not written. > If anyone ever called him a heretic, it must have been some lama. > However, so far nobody has posted a source for that claim, so > maybe it never happened. He'd not be bothered anyway. I remember an article by Bhikkhu Bodhi and a Canadian monk Punndhammo on Buddhism without beliefs. I don't remember the word "heretic", but there was something about Buddhism Lite if I am not mistaken. Our Richard wrote an article in defense of Stephen's book. Joy From joy.vriens at gmail.com Mon May 17 08:45:34 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:45:34 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <118e5.3e1f5a92.3922a859@aol.com> References: <118e5.3e1f5a92.3922a859@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Jack, > His goal is to teach how to alleviate suffering. He feels this is done > best by going back to the original teachings of the Buddha and cutting out all > the cultural, mythical, metaphysical and teleological notions that have > accrued over the years. We don't know the original teachings of the Buddha. I personally believe that there was enough madness in Buddhism right from the start and that it hasn't accrued over the years. Buddhism has appeared in a given context. The Buddha apparently had followed some of it, reinterpreted it and reacted to it. Some may think that when one removes all those "its", one will be left with the Buddha's teaching, but I doubt that. If Buddha's teachings are "ad hoc", you can't separate the "ad" from the "hoc". > What "mythical, metaphysical...teleological notions" do you think > necessary to the Buddha's teachings? It is not so much that I think they are necessary. Some may see them as ugly warts in a beautiful face, but it's a fact the warts are there. I love truth as much as I love Buddhism. I would mistrust the gesture of removing them and the reasons behind that gesture. Why not make it into a creative exercise and reinterpret them? The Buddha himself was very fond of reinterpreting and recycling. > By the way, _http://www.upaya.org/dharma/page/6/_ > (http://www.upaya.org/dharma/page/6/) ?has ?downloadable talks by Steven and Martine in a 14 part > series called Godless ?Religion or Devout Atheism. I think it parallels much of > his new book. I will have a look. I am naturally inclined myself towards Godlessness, atheism, nihilism, anarchism, darwinism and other forms of reductionism, but don't like using any of those in more militant ways even with the good intention of fighting obscurantism or somesuch. I want to love all flowers in God's garden equally :-) Joy From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 17 08:46:43 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 08:46:43 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] No influence in Texas? (comparative religions dept) Message-ID: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/16/texas-schools-rewrite s-us-history Texas schools board rewrites US history with lessons promoting God and guns US Christian conservatives drop references to slave trade and sideline Thomas Jefferson who backed church-state separation [see article] Why don't we just cede Texas to Mexico? From rhayes at unm.edu Mon May 17 10:28:57 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 10:28:57 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> On May 17, 2010, at 8:22 AM, Joy Vriens wrote: > I remember an article by Bhikkhu Bodhi and a Canadian monk Punndhammo > on Buddhism without beliefs. I don't remember the word "heretic", but > there was something about Buddhism Lite if I am not mistaken. I have had long discussions with both Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Punnadhammo. Their impression of the discussions may differ from mine, but my recollection is that they were quite cordial. Polite tone aside, both of those bhikkhus (both Westerners, Bodhi having been raised Jewish in New York and Punnadhammo having been raised Roman Catholic in Ontario) confessed that they simply could not understand how anyone could jettison the doctrine of rebirth and still claim to be teaching Buddhism. Punnadhammo (but not Bodhi) struck me as having a fairly robust distrust of science and seemed quite confident that eventually Western science will "catch up" to Buddhism, a view that I am inclined to take as an unpromising sign of intelligent life beneath a shaved head. Bodhi has a very sharp mind and approaches Buddhist texts with a kind of rabbinical thoroughness. I can easily see why a textual scholar of his calibre would find it odd that a person claiming to be a Buddhist does not find the doctrine of rebirth helpful, especially since it is so indisputably part of Buddhist tradition. While I can easily understand Bodhi's position, I simply don't agree with it. As far as I could see, Bodhi was able to see how someone could hold my position, but he does not agree with it. Not a single hint of anyone calling skepticism about rebirth heretical ever emerged in these discussions. (Jamie Hubbard may have different memories than mine on this matter. I think he was hoping Bhikkhu Bodhi and I would break chairs over one another's heads in the style of an old-fashioned barroom brawl.) As I see it (if I may paraphrase Henry Kissinger), debates among Buddhists often become quite animated because there is so little at stake. What practical difference could it possibly make whether or not one believes in rebirth? Well, now that I raise that question, I do recall someone on this list back in 1993 or so claiming that people who deny rebirth are doing Mara's work and will surely spend some aeons in hell. But what's the harm in that? Some of the best bodhisattvas go to hell. That's where the work is. > Richard wrote an article in defense of Stephen's book. Your memory is better than mine, so I'll take your word for it. I see Stephen as a man whose position is something like this: "If you liked David Hume, you'll love the Buddha." David Hume wrote "There arise, indeed, in some minds, some unaccountable terrors with regard to futurity: But these would quickly vanish, were they not artificially fostered by precept and education. And those, who foster them: what is their motive? Only to gain a livelihood, and to acquire power and riches in this world. Their very zeal and industry, therefore, are an argument against them." The kind of suspicion Hume had of the motivations of the clergy, who are depicted repeatedly as frightening their parishioners for no better reason than to scare money out of them, sound remarkably like the things one hears the Buddha saying about the brahmans of his day. Similar things could, I am inclined to think, be said about Buddhist teachers in our own age. It is good to have cynics and skeptics around to remind us of the possibility that religion may well be a confidence game aimed at taking our money and the making us feel guilty for wanting to murder those who have become rich by impoverishing us. As an agnostic on most matters, I am as puzzled by atheists as by fideists. Batchelor's move from agnosticism to atheism is not one I am likely to follow, but I admire him for taking the stands he takes. If I may quote a dear friend of mine who was a Catholic priest: "Thank God for atheists. They keep the rest of us honest." Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Mon May 17 10:31:59 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 10:31:59 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] No influence in Texas? (comparative religions dept) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41201FD3-0300-47DC-BB22-FB55FA45770C@unm.edu> On May 17, 2010, at 8:46 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Why don't we just cede Texas to Mexico? While I firmly believe that New Mexico and Arizona should be returned to Mexico, I would never foist Texas off on anyone. Let it go back to being an independent republic. Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Mon May 17 10:31:59 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 10:31:59 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] No influence in Texas? (comparative religions dept) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41201FD3-0300-47DC-BB22-FB55FA45770C@unm.edu> On May 17, 2010, at 8:46 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Why don't we just cede Texas to Mexico? While I firmly believe that New Mexico and Arizona should be returned to Mexico, I would never foist Texas off on anyone. Let it go back to being an independent republic. Richard From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Mon May 17 10:55:04 2010 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 09:55:04 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> Message-ID: <03C20A7B-A89A-4C5C-8196-BB9AE72FF804@wheelwrightassoc.com> May I have your permission to use this, Richard? It is pitch perfect! Tim Timothy Smith 831.624.8138 www.wheelwrightassoc.com On May 17, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Richard Hayes wrote: > Some of the best bodhisattvas go to hell. That's where the work is. From rhayes at unm.edu Mon May 17 10:55:44 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 10:55:44 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] No influence in Texas? (comparative religions dept) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <979247EC-0A0B-475B-9E95-8594DD41EC9B@unm.edu> On May 17, 2010, at 8:46 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > Texas schools board rewrites US history with lessons promoting > God and guns US Christian conservatives drop references to slave > trade and sideline Thomas Jefferson who backed church-state > separation I heard about this several weeks ago. Textbooks are being purged of references to Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Martin Luther King Jr and John Kennedy. This makes sense. At least thirty years ago Texas banned all discussion of evolution from biology textbooks, and rightly so. There is no evidence whatsoever of evolution in Texas. Meanwhile, Arizona has passed a new state law banning ethnic studies programs. School systems in Arizona are no longer allowed to offer courses that teach history from the perspective of African-Americans, chicanos or native Americans or other ethnic groups. I reckon this means that no history can be taught at all, since the standard history books tell the story of America from the perspective of Europeans who had no trouble at all justifying genocidal campaigns against the people who already lived in North and South America. I am sure the new Arizona law will also ban the showing of cowboy movies, since almost all the Hollywood movies about the old west are the products of Eastern European Jewish directors and producers who had wild fantasies about how the west was won. (It has been estimated by some historians that about 50% of the cowboys in the old west were freed slaves, but how many African Americans did you count in the gunfight at the OK corral?) The main source for the plots of old cowboy movies was the book of Joshua. The Indians were the Canaanites and the Philistines stubbornly holding on to the New Israel than God had given to the Americans. Clearly all those movies should be banned in Arizona. I wonder whether it's still legal to talk about Buddhism in Phoenix or Tucson. Anybody know? Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Mon May 17 11:35:15 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 11:35:15 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <03C20A7B-A89A-4C5C-8196-BB9AE72FF804@wheelwrightassoc.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> <03C20A7B-A89A-4C5C-8196-BB9AE72FF804@wheelwrightassoc.com> Message-ID: <4AB8F6D8-C932-47B7-882B-04A3E6DA2B4F@unm.edu> On May 17, 2010, at 10:55 AM, Timothy Smith wrote: > May I have your permission to use this, Richard? It is pitch perfect! By all means. Go to hell with my blessings! Richard From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 17 11:42:17 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 11:42:17 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl><4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl><2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX><31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> Message-ID: Batchelor's move from agnosticism to atheism is not one I am likely to follow, but I admire him for taking the stands he takes. Richard __________________________ Not so fast, Richard: Batchelor points out in his latest book that he objects to the common/popular use of the term atheism. He says that most atheists today should instead say they are "anti-theists," since they spend a lot of time and money ranting against religions of any stripe. He on the other hand views the term atheist literally, to be translated as "non-theist." He says that's what he is. A non-theist. His book title is likely to mislead a lot of folks who would read it except that he seems to be coming across in that title as the garden variety atheist, with whom he doesn't identify. Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From pvera at health.usf.edu Mon May 17 12:19:35 2010 From: pvera at health.usf.edu (Vera, Pedro L.) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 14:19:35 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl><4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl><2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX><31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1632EC2371DC6849B1A97EF0B28B970AAD3A6A65AD@MAILSERVER1.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu> Hi Joanna: "His book title is likely to mislead a lot of folks who would read it except that he seems to be coming across in that title as the garden variety atheist, with whom he doesn't identify." On the other hand, it appears that his book is likely to mislead a lot of garden variety atheists, with whom I do identify, and who might be interested in reading his book. Most of the so-called "rants" and "dogmatism" by clear-headed thinkers such as Dawkins has to be put in the context of countering the rants, dogmatism and insidious prevalence of the religious views, particularly the more strident components. In the end, I doubt that believers will make such a fine distinction between the "garden variety atheists" or the nuanced Buddhist "non-theists". We will all burn equally crisply and deservedly (from their point of view, of course) in their hell. Regards, Pedro From rhayes at unm.edu Mon May 17 13:05:57 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:05:57 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl><4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl><2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX><31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> Message-ID: <2923BEA1-2BA8-4DD1-A3FD-55246B7D93C0@unm.edu> On May 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > He on the other hand views the term atheist literally, to be > translated as "non-theist." He says that's what he is. A > non-theist. > > His book title is likely to mislead a lot of folks who would read > it except that he seems to be coming across in that title as the > garden variety atheist, with whom he doesn't identify. What Batchelor says in his public talks may also mislead people. When he was in New Mexico he explained that in his earlier works he had claimed to be agnostic about many Buddhist doctrines, but he eventually came to realize that he was in fact convinced those doctrines are false and that he had been hiding behind the agnostic label for safety. He has now come out in the open and says that he thinks some Buddhist doctrines are false, and that he is to some traditional Buddhist doctrines as an atheist is to some theological doctrines (such as the doctrine that there is a god). While almost every Buddhist is an atheist (in the sense of not having God at the center of his or her going for refuge), Batchelor claims to be an atheist with respect to Buddhism in that he outright rejects some doctrines that have become associated with Buddhism. He would, of course, claim that he is not rejecting any teachings of the Buddha; he is rejecting what later Buddhists taught. I completely agree with Joy that no one knows what the Buddha taught and that claiming to know such things is insufficiently agnostic. I also agree with Erik that there is something naive in Batchelor's approach if he regards causality as unproblematic. Richard From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon May 17 13:11:14 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 15:11:14 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl><4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl><2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX><31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> Message-ID: <008101caf5f4$b8c00de0$2101a8c0@Dan> Richard wrote: > The kind of suspicion Hume had of the motivations of the clergy, who are > depicted repeatedly as frightening their parishioners for no better reason > than to scare money out of them, sound remarkably like the things one > hears the Buddha saying about the brahmans of his day. Similar things > could, I am inclined to think, be said about Buddhist teachers in our own > age. Old Zen story: Hakuin, during his morning talk to the monks, explained that there is no heaven, no hell. Later in town, a samurai approached Hakuin and asked about Heaven and Hell. Hakuin assured him they were real. The monks, overhearing the conversation with the samurai, were perplexed, and subsequently questioned Hakuin: "In the morning you told us there was no Heaven and Hell. Yet you tell him that they are real. Why?" Hakuin replied: "If I told him there was no Heaven and Hell, where would the alms come from?" Postscript: Anyone familiar with Hakuin's life and writings will know that fire-and-brimstone Buddhism deeply impressed itself upon him since he was a small child and his mother brought him to Temple where he heard a fire-and-brimstone speech that excited his imagination for many years to come -- it was his original koan; andas an adult he elicits the terror of hell-fire against opponents and others deserving disapproval on numerous occasions. Dan From alberto.tod at gmail.com Mon May 17 13:44:25 2010 From: alberto.tod at gmail.com (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 15:44:25 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF19C99.6080406@gmail.com> JKirkpatrick wrote: > Batchelor ... says that most atheists today should instead say they are > "anti-theists," since they spend a lot of time and money ranting > against religions of any stripe. Is this what he really says? I suspect that the vast majority of atheists spend no money and very little time ranting against religion. There are millions of atheists in Europe, North America, etc. Surely there would be a heck of a racket if they did what you claim Batchelor says they do. Incidentally, there have been calls from people like Dawkins for atheists to come out of the closet, precisely because they are well-nigh invisible in e.g. politics. Regards, Alberto Todeschini From rhayes at unm.edu Mon May 17 14:44:40 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 14:44:40 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <4BF19C99.6080406@gmail.com> References: <4BF19C99.6080406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <482D0B6C-34FB-4814-8037-01EFEECA39C7@unm.edu> On May 17, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Alberto Todeschini wrote: > Is this what he really says? I suspect that the vast majority of > atheists spend no money and very little time ranting against religion. It's hard to rant effectively these days without a blog site. To have a blog, one needs access to a computer and an internet connection, and those luxuries are not inexpensive. The days of going down to the local park and bellowing truths, platitudes and fantasies through a megaphone from atop a soapbox are just about over. Even buying a soapbox sturdy enough to support one's weight in this age of obesity is liable to put one into debt. And that's just the cost of ranting. Raving is even more costly. > Incidentally, there have been calls from people like Dawkins for > atheists to come out of the closet, precisely because they are well-nigh > invisible in e.g. politics. Dawkins is probably better at science than at giving workable political advice. Coming out of the closet as an atheist in the United States (anywhere outside of San Francisco) would lead to a very short political career. My advice to aspiring American politicians is to deny global warming, proclaim that peace is bad for business, call for strip mining in all national parks and nuclear power stations in all wildlife refuges, insist that all immigrants be deported (except for properly registered slaves), urge the police to stop all dark-skinned people and make them blow into a machine that can detect the levels of chile in the blood, and promise a cabinet position to Rush Limbaugh. For best effect, it's best to say all these things while lovingly fondling an assault rifle. In all other matters, best stay inside the closet. That's where all the most interesting people are anyway. (Oh, and Alberto, if you are thinking of a political career in this country, change your name to Albert Toodamnskinny or something that Americanos can relate to.) Sarah Palin was in my town yesterday. She wore a skin-tight black leather outfit and designer eyeglasses and had her hair tied back in a fashionable pony tail (or perhaps it was a horse's ass). She urged the crowd to support tough immigration policies and to give generously to pro-life anti-government candidates who advocate abolishing all regulations restricting the ownership of guns. I'm guessing that since she is totally opposed to governments passing laws, she can't want governments to regulate immigration by passing laws, which means we'll all be needing our guns to form vigilante posses to chase all those Mexicans away before we go protecting life by shooting abortionists. (Erik, are you sure you don't need Sarah over there in Holland? Does Geert need a new wife?) The more I see of this land of no buddha, the more feverish becomes my going for refuge. Trouble is, I'm not even sure a fleet of buddhas and bodhisattvas could save America at this stage. We've gone over the event horizon of a karmic black hole. The cockroaches shall inherit the earth. cheerfully yours, Richard From Jackhat1 at aol.com Mon May 17 14:54:10 2010 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:54:10 EDT Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor Message-ID: <2fb1b.7a9f7c5e.392306f2@aol.com> In a message dated 5/17/2010 11:30:07 A.M. Central Daylight Time, rhayes at unm.edu writes: I have had long discussions with both Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Punnadhammo. === If I remember Bhikkhu Punnadhammo's essay of several years ago, he didn't seem to have read SB's Buddhism Without Beliefs very closely. What seemed to set him up off the most was that SB was critical of most contemporary monks. jack From franz at mind2mind.net Mon May 17 15:10:42 2010 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 14:10:42 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <03C20A7B-A89A-4C5C-8196-BB9AE72FF804@wheelwrightassoc.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> <03C20A7B-A89A-4C5C-8196-BB9AE72FF804@wheelwrightassoc.com> Message-ID: Gang, Richard quipped, > Some of the best bodhisattvas go to hell. That's where the work is. Just so. As Zhaozhou said, replying to a perhaps particularly dense student, "If I don't go to hell, who will teach *you*?" I often feel this way about my own students. Then I remember I'm already there. Franz From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Mon May 17 15:29:12 2010 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 14:29:12 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> <03C20A7B-A89A-4C5C-8196-BB9AE72FF804@wheelwrightassoc.com> Message-ID: <36C96C5D-B8A1-40F0-A0E4-D06B855E9DA3@wheelwrightassoc.com> I'm almost out of client work....thats why I wanted to borrow it....I need inspiration! Timothy Smith 831.624.8138 www.wheelwrightassoc.com On May 17, 2010, at 2:10 PM, Franz Metcalf wrote: > Gang, > > Richard quipped, > >> Some of the best bodhisattvas go to hell. That's where the work is. > > > Just so. As Zhaozhou said, replying to a perhaps particularly dense > student, "If I don't go to hell, who will teach *you*?" > > I often feel this way about my own students. Then I remember I'm > already there. > > Franz > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jmp at peavler.org Mon May 17 16:55:38 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:55:38 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] No influence in Texas? (comparative religions dept) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <182E09B9-D9D9-4D2E-8D4F-5D7C04418FE6@peavler.org> We should trade Texas for Baja, which is what we should have done when we could still negotiate the theft of a hefty part of their country. On May 17, 2010, at 8:46 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/16/texas-schools-rewrite > s-us-history > > Texas schools board rewrites US history with lessons promoting > God and guns US Christian conservatives drop references to slave > trade and sideline Thomas Jefferson who backed church-state > separation [see article] > > Why don't we just cede Texas to Mexico? > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From zelders.yh at wxs.nl Mon May 17 18:06:22 2010 From: zelders.yh at wxs.nl (Zelders.YH) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 02:06:22 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100518020306.0252fa78@wxs.nl> Musing about Joy's nostalgia for the 'Unconditioned' a quote [very late Wittgenstein] pops up in my mind : "Wer nichts hofft und nichts fuerchtet, dem entgleitet die Welt." ; that is : "for one who has no hopes or fears the worlds drops away". That may be the only realistic way to transcendence. Some people close to death seem to get that far. Herman From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 17 19:41:41 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 19:41:41 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <4BF19C99.6080406@gmail.com> References: <4BF19C99.6080406@gmail.com> Message-ID: I was referring to US atheists and their movement. They are indeed going more public every week and work hard to solicit members of their groups. There once was a political atheist, a woman whose name I forget, but since her media career last century they aren't visible in politics for good reason: here (US) they'd not get elected. In fact, it is compulsory if you are running for public office to tell all that you are a believer in god, "his" mercy and blessings on the USA, and attend services regularly with your dear wife and children. When a new president is inaugurated there is a special minister selected by the president elect to preside with prayer over the occasion. If you, a politician, are being interviewed by the "media" you will regularly be asked about your religious beliefs. JK JKirkpatrick wrote: > Batchelor ... says that most atheists today should instead say they > are "anti-theists," since they spend a lot of time and money ranting > against religions of any stripe. Is this what he really says? I suspect that the vast majority of atheists spend no money and very little time ranting against religion. There are millions of atheists in Europe, North America, etc. Surely there would be a heck of a racket if they did what you claim Batchelor says they do. Incidentally, there have been calls from people like Dawkins for atheists to come out of the closet, precisely because they are well-nigh invisible in e.g. politics. Regards, Alberto Todeschini _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Mon May 17 20:17:42 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:17:42 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: <4BF19C99.6080406@gmail.com> Message-ID: On May 17, 2010, at 7:41 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > In fact, it is compulsory if you > are running for public office to tell all that you are a believer > in god, "his" mercy and blessings on the USA, and attend > services regularly with your dear wife and children. When I was a wee child, my father showed me his identity tags from the US Army, in which he served during the Second Wasteful War. Next to the word "religion" was written a very long word. I asked him to read it to me. The word was Zoroastrian. I asked him what was, and he explained a Zoroastrian was some sort of sun worshiper. (He was a geologist, not a comparative religionist.) I asked if we were Zoroastrians. He said no, but that when he was going through the induction process into the military, he was asked his religion. "I'm an atheist," he said. He was told he couldn't be identified as an atheist on his dog tags, because the purpose of recording a soldier's religion was so people who found his body would know what kind of funeral ceremony to give him. So my father said "In that case, I'd like to be buried by a Zoroastrian chaplain." Maybe someday I can talk him into writing his memoirs, "Confession of a Zoroastrian atheist." From drbob at comcast.net Mon May 17 20:52:02 2010 From: drbob at comcast.net (Bob Woolery) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 19:52:02 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <2923BEA1-2BA8-4DD1-A3FD-55246B7D93C0@unm.edu> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl><4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl><2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX><31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX><357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> <2923BEA1-2BA8-4DD1-A3FD-55246B7D93C0@unm.edu> Message-ID: I had previously understood that the doctrines of karma, reincarnation, and being bound to a wheel of perpetual rebirth, seeking to escape, were notions that permeated the general intellectual climate at the time of the Buddha. I expect he accommodated these in much the same way he is said to have accommodated the concerns of one group of new adherents that a Naga, some kind of shapeshifting snake, might seek to join, to the detriment of the Sangha. Accordingly, applicants were required to state that they were not a Naga in disguise. Noting that some contemporary tribal groups are known as Nagas, I wonder if there is a connection. Bob Woolery, DC 326 deAnza dr Vallejo, CA 94589 www.stateoftheartchiro.com (707)557 5471 -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 12:06 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Batchelor On May 17, 2010, at 11:42 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > He on the other hand views the term atheist literally, to be > translated as "non-theist." He says that's what he is. A > non-theist. > > His book title is likely to mislead a lot of folks who would read > it except that he seems to be coming across in that title as the > garden variety atheist, with whom he doesn't identify. What Batchelor says in his public talks may also mislead people. When he was in New Mexico he explained that in his earlier works he had claimed to be agnostic about many Buddhist doctrines, but he eventually came to realize that he was in fact convinced those doctrines are false and that he had been hiding behind the agnostic label for safety. He has now come out in the open and says that he thinks some Buddhist doctrines are false, and that he is to some traditional Buddhist doctrines as an atheist is to some theological doctrines (such as the doctrine that there is a god). While almost every Buddhist is an atheist (in the sense of not having God at the center of his or her going for refuge), Batchelor claims to be an atheist with respect to Buddhism in that he outright rejects some doctrines that have become associated with Buddhism. He would, of course, claim that he is not rejecting any teachings of the Buddha; he is rejecting what later Buddhists taught. I completely agree with Joy that no one knows what the Buddha taught and that claiming to know such things is insufficiently agnostic. I also agree with Erik that there is something naive in Batchelor's approach if he regards causality as unproblematic. Richard _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From joy.vriens at gmail.com Mon May 17 23:31:20 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 07:31:20 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <118e5.3e1f5a92.3922a859@aol.com> References: <118e5.3e1f5a92.3922a859@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Jack, Thanks for the link. I listened to Godless Religion or Devout Atheism? Part 14 of 14 ? Session 6 http://www.upaya.org/dharma/2009/10/. If SB isn't a Buddhist teacher than who is? > By the way, _http://www.upaya.org/dharma/page/6/_ > (http://www.upaya.org/dharma/page/6/) ?has ?downloadable talks by Steven and Martine in a 14 part > series called Godless ?Religion or Devout Atheism. I think it parallels much of > his new book. Joy From joy.vriens at gmail.com Mon May 17 23:56:18 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 07:56:18 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> Message-ID: >> Richard wrote an article in defense of Stephen's book. I printed it out together with the reviews by Bhikkhu Punnadhammo, Bhikkhu Bodhi and Urgyen Sangharaskita. Those were the days where one still printed out the stuff one read. The latter reviewed the book as being too slim a volume. > Your memory is better than mine, so I'll take your word for it. I see Stephen as a man whose position is something like this: "If you liked David Hume, you'll love the Buddha." If you need a copy of your review for the Richard P. Hayes Archives, I am happy to scan it and send it to you. > David Hume wrote "There arise, indeed, in some minds, some unaccountable terrors with regard to futurity: But these would quickly vanish, were they not artificially fostered by precept and education. And those, who foster them: what is their motive? Only to gain a livelihood, and to acquire power and riches in this world. Their very zeal and industry, therefore, are an argument against them." I wondered about that the other day. Is dana the same after a teaching about loving kindness and compassion as after one about karma-and-reincarnation? Michel Strickmann (Mantras et mandarins) had written about the function of texts predicting apocalyptic times where Maras would rule and about instructions that save (powerful dharanis, pure land etc.). Create a need, create a market and sell your product. Like our times where terror rules and security is a bestseller. Joy From joy.vriens at gmail.com Tue May 18 00:01:37 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 08:01:37 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <482D0B6C-34FB-4814-8037-01EFEECA39C7@unm.edu> References: <4BF19C99.6080406@gmail.com> <482D0B6C-34FB-4814-8037-01EFEECA39C7@unm.edu> Message-ID: Richard wrote, > The more I see of this land of no buddha, the more feverish becomes my going for refuge. Trouble is, I'm not even sure a fleet of buddhas and bodhisattvas could save America at this stage. We've gone over the event horizon of a karmic black hole. The cockroaches shall inherit the earth. That's exactly the apocalyptic atmosphere we need to do business. Dharanis anybody? Mantras? Get ready for the Pure Land! Who wants to make some positive karma? Joy From joy.vriens at gmail.com Tue May 18 00:05:43 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 08:05:43 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20100518020306.0252fa78@wxs.nl> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100518020306.0252fa78@wxs.nl> Message-ID: > Musing about Joy's nostalgia for the 'Unconditioned' a quote [very > late Wittgenstein] pops up in my mind : > "Wer nichts hofft und nichts fuerchtet, dem entgleitet die Welt." ; > that is : "for one who has no hopes or fears the worlds drops away". > That may be the only realistic way to transcendence. Some people > close to death seem to get that far. Mahamudra teachings keep repeating this. Absence of hope and fear is the ultimate result. Except for the last bit, Mahamudrians would see it gives one a real grip on the world and an obligation to disinterested action. Joy From zelders.yh at wxs.nl Tue May 18 07:41:12 2010 From: zelders.yh at wxs.nl (Zelders.YH) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 15:41:12 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100518152939.024ffd48@wxs.nl> Richard wrote : >I also agree with Erik that there is something naive in Batchelor's >approach if he regards causality as unproblematic. Please explain a little further . Herman From jkirk at spro.net Tue May 18 08:27:48 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 08:27:48 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl><4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl><2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX><31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX><357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> Message-ID: "predicting apocalyptic times where Maras would rule ..." Like ever since............. ,? Have times ever not been apocalyptic? JK ________________ [...] I wondered about that the other day. Is dana the same after a teaching about loving kindness and compassion as after one about karma-and-reincarnation? Michel Strickmann (Mantras et mandarins) had written about the function of texts predicting apocalyptic times where Maras would rule and about instructions that save (powerful dharanis, pure land etc.). Create a need, create a market and sell your product. Like our times where terror rules and security is a bestseller. Joy _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jehms at xs4all.nl Tue May 18 09:06:07 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 17:06:07 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <482D0B6C-34FB-4814-8037-01EFEECA39C7@unm.edu> References: <4BF19C99.6080406@gmail.com> <482D0B6C-34FB-4814-8037-01EFEECA39C7@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4BF2ACDF.80607@xs4all.nl> Op 17-05-10 22:44, Richard Hayes schreef: > > Sarah Palin was in my town yesterday. She wore a skin-tight black leather outfit and designer eyeglasses and had her hair tied back in a fashionable pony tail (or perhaps it was a horse's ass). She urged the crowd to support tough immigration policies and to give generously to pro-life anti-government candidates who advocate abolishing all regulations restricting the ownership of guns. I'm guessing that since she is totally opposed to governments passing laws, she can't want governments to regulate immigration by passing laws, which means we'll all be needing our guns to form vigilante posses to chase all those Mexicans away before we go protecting life by shooting abortionists. (Erik, are you sure you don't need Sarah over there in Holland? Does Geert need a new wife?) > > I'm prepared to start a new political movement for an exchange between Holland and the U.S.: Sara and the Teaparty Movement against Geert and the coffeeshops. Geert seems to become increasingly populair in English speaking countries. You already have Ayan Hirsi Ali, she used to be very close to Geert. He'll probably insist to take his hairdresser with him. I understand that Batchelor is the kind of guy who you let take care of your pets and plants while you're on holliday, but he can be wrong. There's nothing wrong with being wrong, it gives you the opportunity to rearrange your ideas. It can be very refreshing. Hume also was wrong sometimes and he never excluded the possibility. It's useless to participate in a discussion if you cannot be wrong. A complete waste of time. I'm more curious about Batchelor's arguments than his convictions. The problem as I see it is not the existence of God, Christians have no reason to discuss it and non-believers also don't. A religion is not an epistemology or an ontology. There used to be a time when people were burnt at stakes for denying God's existence, but nowadays there's even a protestant preacher who denies God's existence. What counts is how you live and my experience as a chairperson of an interreligious organisation has tought me that peaceloving and caring persons (or warmongers for that matter) understand each other very well without discussing God, reincarnation, karma or any other metaphysical question. (I'm defending a pragmatist position, this must sound familiar to at least some of the denizens.) Cannot you give Sarah as a bonus for the counrty that wins the World Soccer Championship? erik From tccahill at loyno.edu Tue May 18 09:08:27 2010 From: tccahill at loyno.edu (tccahill) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 09:08:27 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] No influence in Texas? Message-ID: <4bf2ad6b.39f.52306e.22000@loyno.edu> From: Jim Peavler > We should trade Texas for Baja, which is what we should have done when we could still > negotiate the theft of a hefty part of their country. Keeping the sky above, and the earth below, Release only Texans themselves. That is the Middle Way. Commentary: By the phrase "earth below" he refers to mineral rights. -Tim From jehms at xs4all.nl Tue May 18 09:19:01 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 17:19:01 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: <4BF19C99.6080406@gmail.com> <482D0B6C-34FB-4814-8037-01EFEECA39C7@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4BF2AFE5.1070604@xs4all.nl> Op 18-05-10 08:01, Joy Vriens schreef: > Richard wrote, > > >> The more I see of this land of no buddha, the more feverish becomes my going for refuge. Trouble is, I'm not even sure a fleet of buddhas and bodhisattvas could save America at this stage. We've gone over the event horizon of a karmic black hole. The cockroaches shall inherit the earth. >> > That's exactly the apocalyptic atmosphere we need to do business. > Dharanis anybody? Mantras? Get ready for the Pure Land! Who wants to > make some positive karma? > Well Pure Land is very populiar in Hollywood and they know about apocalypse and business. Oh about dana: don't forget the may open source programmers who give away their products for free. I just installes Ubuntu 10 on 2 laptops and I'm very gratefull. erik From jehms at xs4all.nl Tue May 18 09:22:19 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 17:22:19 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100518020306.0252fa78@wxs.nl> Message-ID: <4BF2B0AB.8010201@xs4all.nl> Op 18-05-10 08:05, Joy Vriens schreef: >> Musing about Joy's nostalgia for the 'Unconditioned' a quote [very >> late Wittgenstein] pops up in my mind : >> "Wer nichts hofft und nichts fuerchtet, dem entgleitet die Welt." ; >> that is : "for one who has no hopes or fears the worlds drops away". >> That may be the only realistic way to transcendence. Some people >> close to death seem to get that far. >> > Mahamudra teachings keep repeating this. Absence of hope and fear is > the ultimate result. Except for the last bit, Mahamudrians would see > it gives one a real grip on the world and an obligation to > disinterested action. > Wttgenstein converted himself to Catholicism. He wasn't even abused as a child, and at the time he had forgotten all about Schopenhauer, who got him ripe for philosophy. erik From jehms at xs4all.nl Tue May 18 09:26:07 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 17:26:07 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl><4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl><2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX><31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX><357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4BF2B18F.7070909@xs4all.nl> Op 18-05-10 16:27, JKirkpatrick schreef: > > "predicting apocalyptic times where Maras would rule ..." > > Like ever since............. ,? Have times ever not been > apocalyptic? > At some moments in historie utopias were more the talk of the day. But now mixing of casts are about top happen and the sons and daughters of the Teaparty will drink Belgian beer and gather again at Woodstock. erik From rhayes at unm.edu Tue May 18 10:34:47 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 10:34:47 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <4BF2AFE5.1070604@xs4all.nl> References: <4BF19C99.6080406@gmail.com> <482D0B6C-34FB-4814-8037-01EFEECA39C7@unm.edu> <4BF2AFE5.1070604@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <963B0093-E02E-4C53-A1A0-FE7519155499@unm.edu> On May 18, 2010, at 9:19 AM, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > Oh about dana: don't forget the may open source programmers who give > away their products for free. I believe there is a law in the USA against giving away software for free to anyone but billionaires. > I just installes Ubuntu 10 on 2 laptops > and I'm very gratefull. Ubuntu is an excellent product. The fact that such an excellent product is distributed for free almost makes me believe in bodhisattvas. I used to use Red Hat and Fedora Linux until a young Buddhist brought Ubuntu to my attention in 2006. I installed Ubuntu 6.04 in 2006 and have continued getting every upgrade since then. It gets easier to use with every upgrade, and new upgrades come out at the end of every April and every October. Over on the Indology list, Indologists are singing the blues about how much trouble they are having with Windows 7. The advice that keeps getting voiced is to go back to Windows XP. That's like telling someone who has just escaped from a burning building that it's much more dangerous outside and the best thing to do is to run back into the burning building. I believe there is a parable in the Lotus Sutra about a father enticing his sons out of a burning house by promising one a MacBook and the other a PC with Windows XP. Then when the children come out of the building, he gives them all computers with Ubuntu 10.04, and they all join Soka Gakkai as a happy family. Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Tue May 18 10:43:59 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 10:43:59 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <4BF2ACDF.80607@xs4all.nl> References: <4BF19C99.6080406@gmail.com> <482D0B6C-34FB-4814-8037-01EFEECA39C7@unm.edu> <4BF2ACDF.80607@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <7BB9B398-5372-4673-B9EC-B46A3F440BC6@unm.edu> On May 18, 2010, at 9:06 AM, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > Cannot you give Sarah as a bonus for the counrty that wins the World > Soccer Championship? An excellent suggestion. Perhaps we can do an exchange. Sister Sarah can be a prize to the team that wins the World Cup, if you'll let us have Geert as a prize to the winner of the bull-riding competition in this year's rodeo championships. Yeehaw! Richard From jkirk at spro.net Tue May 18 14:29:15 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 14:29:15 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Closure of the Wellcome Trust Centre for the History of Medicine Message-ID: <5E04B5F993B44186B33BCB9AD5650CD7@OPTIPLEX> X-posted. This is a disaster to scholarship and research. I wonder what happens now to their library. Details to sign a petition, if anyone cares to, below. Joanna (formerly into medical anthropology) ________________________________________ H-ASIA May 18, 2010 Closure of the Wellcome Trust Centre for the History of Medicine (x-post IASTAM = International Association for the Study of Traditional Asian Medicine) ***************************************************************** ******* Ed. note: Thanks to Steven Lindquist for bringing this very unhappy item to our attention--the post has been edited to remove a solicitation for a petition but all other information remains. Any party interested in the petition should contact the poster Vivienne Lo. FFC ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------ From: Vivienne Lo Dear IASTAM members, Excuse me for double posting. I am writing to you about the Wellcome Trust Centre for the History of Medicine which has been closed without a review. The Centre has been a hub of activity for IASTAM for some fifteen years. It has also sponsored many conferences and excellent work in the History of Asian Medicine, including the work of Larry Conrad, Dominik Wujastyk, Waltraud Ernst, Guy Attewell, Ronit Tlalim, Li Shang-jen, Theresia Hofer, Michael Stanley Baker, Nancy Holroyde-Downing, David Dear and many more. Many of these people have been core to the development of IASTAM. It has also been the administrative centre for IASTAM for over a decade, and the birthplace of our journal Asian Medicine. [....] There is also a blog where you can send comments which have to go to Carole Reeves c.reeves at ucl.ac.uk http://friendsofwtchom.blogspot.com/ If you want to read about what the papers are saying follow this links for the latest of many articles and see attached. BMJ http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/340/may06_1/c2447 Do send this on to appropriate elists. The petition and blog will be closed at the end of May. Thank you! Vivienne Lo Convenor of Asian Medicine Wellcome Trust Centre for the History of Medicine Wellcome Building 183 Euston Road London NW1 2B? From jkirk at spro.net Tue May 18 22:30:21 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 22:30:21 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor Message-ID: Stephen was interviewed after publishing Living with the Devil, and had this to say about pratityasamutpada, contingency, and samsara (excerpt): http://www.dharmalife.com/issue25/devil.html 'Some of the first material I wrote for the new book was a development of material that appeared years ago in a booklet called Flight, which was an afterthought to Alone with Others. I wanted to develop the idea that existential flight, which is the human tendency to flee the difficult reality of experience towards distraction or entertainment, is a natural response to contingency. This word 'contingency' is how I translate pratityasamutpada, or Dependent Arising, the Buddha's fundamental teaching on the nature of Reality.' Batchelor's previous book, Verses from the Centre, was a poetic rendering of a work by the Buddhist philosopher Nagarjuna, in which this contingency is identified with sunyata or emptiness, the lack of essential identity in phenomena. Samsara, the endless cycle of suffering, is, Batchelor might say, this flight from contingency. Instead of opening to the contingent, empty nature of things, we endlessly seek for identity, security and permanence. But this sets us in a vicious circle, since in our quest for happiness we are evading Reality. In German, Batchelor notes, a vicious circle is a Teufelskreis, a 'devil's circle': it is the devil who deceives us into circling, getting nowhere. In Buddhism this devil is called Mara. 'Mara,' he tells me, 'is a way of talking about the contingent and imperfect structure of the world. A lot of western Buddhists, and maybe Asian Buddhists, too, tend to read Mara as a psychological function: as negative states of mind, attachments, grasping and so on. This is only part of the picture. It fails to see that Mara is a metaphor for the very structure of the contingent world that is constantly breaking down, and exposing you to death and the unpredictability of life itself. All that is Mara.' From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed May 19 01:52:19 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 09:52:19 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF398B3.3020106@xs4all.nl> Op 19-05-10 06:30, JKirkpatrick schreef: > Stephen was interviewed after publishing Living with the Devil, > and had this to say about pratityasamutpada, contingency, and > samsara (excerpt): > http://www.dharmalife.com/issue25/devil.html > > 'Some of the first material I wrote for the new book was a > development of material that appeared years ago in a booklet > called Flight, which was an afterthought to Alone with Others. I > wanted to develop the idea that existential flight, which is the > human tendency to flee the difficult reality of experience > towards distraction or entertainment, is a natural response to > contingency. This word 'contingency' is how I translate > pratityasamutpada, or Dependent Arising, the Buddha's fundamental > teaching on the nature of Reality.' > > Batchelor's previous book, Verses from the Centre, was a poetic > rendering of a work by the Buddhist philosopher Nagarjuna, in > which this contingency is identified with sunyata or emptiness, > the lack of essential identity in phenomena. Samsara, the endless > cycle of suffering, is, Batchelor might say, this flight from > contingency. Instead of opening to the contingent, empty nature > of things, we endlessly seek for identity, security and > permanence. But this sets us in a vicious circle, since in our > quest for happiness we are evading Reality. In German, Batchelor > notes, a vicious circle is a Teufelskreis, a 'devil's circle': it > is the devil who deceives us into circling, getting nowhere. In > Buddhism this devil is called Mara. > > I understand that this image of the Devil is a poetical expression. Batchelor's use of ' contingency' is however at least confusing. Prat?tyasamutp?da is a relation between events, while contingency means that there's no relation at all. A philosopher for whom contingency was very important was J-P Sartre. He liked movies very much and observed that the difference between a movie and reality is that reality has no director, so contingency is the trademark of the real. Has Batchelor been reading Sartre? erik From joy.vriens at gmail.com Wed May 19 02:06:40 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 10:06:40 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <4BF2B0AB.8010201@xs4all.nl> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100518020306.0252fa78@wxs.nl> <4BF2B0AB.8010201@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Erik, Wttgenstein converted himself to Catholicism. He wasn't even abused as a > child, and at the time he had forgotten all about Schopenhauer, who got > him ripe for philosophy. > > Hi Erik, He would get anyone ripe for philosophy. I recently bought a new French translation of Schopenhauer's "Le monde comme volont? de la repr?sentation" (by Christian Sommer and others). I had read about this work, but had never read it directly. The first chapters read like Buddhist scholasticism, it's great for vocabulary and for thinking. It forces one's mind to stay on the spot and to structure one's thinking. I can recommend it to anyone interested in Buddhism. Its opening quote : "Sors de l'enfance, ami, r?veille-toi !" - Jean-Jacques Rousseau Joy From joy.vriens at gmail.com Wed May 19 02:42:44 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 10:42:44 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Joanna, and had this to say about pratityasamutpada, contingency, and > samsara (excerpt): > http://www.dharmalife.com/issue25/devil.html > > 'Some of the first material I wrote for the new book was a > development of material that appeared years ago in a booklet > called Flight, which was an afterthought to Alone with Others. I > wanted to develop the idea that existential flight, which is the > human tendency to flee the difficult reality of experience > towards distraction or entertainment, is a natural response to > contingency. This word 'contingency' is how I translate > pratityasamutpada, or Dependent Arising, the Buddha's fundamental > teaching on the nature of Reality.' > > There is something in SB' discourse and reasoning that displeases me and that I can't put my finger on. I don't know what he exactly means by Buddhist existentialism, but I don't like the existential approach of being caught and stuck in an existence from which no escape is possible except through death. First, I don't believe that is true. Second, there are different degrees of adhering to what "really" happens ("reality", what really happens as it happens in regard to what when there is no unconditioned reference point?). Even if existence is all there is, why would one be obliged to adhere and would the refusal to adhere or simply not adhering be considered as a flight? How much adherence is needed in order to not be considered as some sort of a deserter and what is one exactly supposed to be deserting from? Are we supposed to think every second of our existence that we are stuck and conditioned and to keep our noses right on the grindstone and would not doing this constitute a case of "fleeing the difficult reality"? Ridiculous. And what "reality" is one supposed to be fleeing from exactly? How do "difficult reality" and distraction from "it" relate to each other in contingency? It seems to me that although there is no Unconditioned for SB, there is something very real and fix about this "reality", that people want to flee and keep fleeing from. "Reality of experience". Experience is experience. What does reality have to with it? What does reality have to with anything at all in a contingent world? What is the link between reality and the hypothetical adherence to it? Joy From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed May 19 02:48:12 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 04:48:12 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100518020306.0252fa78@wxs.nl><4BF2B0AB.8010201@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <018001caf730$04ec3400$2101a8c0@Dan> Joy, Erik, et al., The World as Will and Representation is one of those works reaching for system post-Spinoza, such as attempted by Schelling, Hegel, etc., though for Schopenhauer his guiding light was what he understood Buddhism to be, based on the limited sources available early in the 19th c. His vision of Buddhism influenced Nietzsche early on, who understood Buddhism through Schopenhauerian eyes. Nietzsche's critiques of Buddhism are related to his eventual rejection of Schopenhauer for, among other things, being too nihilistic and negative. The philosophy Nietzsche moved to, I would argue, was actually closer to authentic Buddhism, though he didn't fully recognize that (though he did follow the developments in Buddhist studies during his time). Neitzsche took Rousseu's advice, apparently: "Sors de l'enfance, ami, r?veille-toi !" and outgrew Schopenhauer. Incidentally, Erik's observations on Batchelor and Sartre are on target. One minor correction. Contingency is not the opposite of causal. That would be "accident" or random. In the Greek and medieval systems (i.e., Aristoteleanism), there are three levels: Necessity, Contingency, and Accident. Necessity concerns causes leading ineluctably to their effects, or, in terms of formal causes, what is necessarily the case. Contingency happens for reasons, has causes, but the results *could have been otherwise*. Accidental means no rhyme or reason, absence of any sort of causal necessity at all. So, by Aristotelean lights, that a "human" is a "rational animal" is necessary. That she was born on a particular date, or has hair of a particular color, is contingent. Only anarchists and Western Carvakas argue for accidents. The essential nature of something is "necessary." Whatever could be otherwise (she could have been a he, had red hair instead of brown, been born on a Tues. instead of a Wed., etc.) is contingent. That she has brown hair, happened for reasons, but that was not necessary. The fact of birth and death is necessary, but the facts of anyone's particular birth and death are contingent. Buddha understood the twelve links as necessary, not contingent. Because there is death, there necessarily is birth. And so on. I don't think that distinction sheds any light on pratitya-samutpada. If Batchelor means "contingent" in a less professional manner, as a substitute for "tentative" (contingency plans in case X happens -- "if this, then that"), then he is not doing pratitya-samutpada justice and just confusing things by borrowing a word that is already overburdened with baggage. Dan From ahbadiner at igc.apc.org Wed May 19 05:27:51 2010 From: ahbadiner at igc.apc.org (ahbadiner at igc.apc.org) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 04:27:51 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100519042751.7uhr5sm7swkco880@webmail.igc.apc.org> Many thanks to Joanna Kirkpatrick for isolating (in my view) some the most important and revolutionary of Batchelor's ideas. This is no less significant than the First Noble Truth-- it may be, in fact, the very heart of that truth. So much of human behavior can be seen as a kind of flight from contingency. Full recognition of contingency is suggested to be the essence of awakening and the diminution of suffering. Yet, in the effort to keep suffering at bay, our tragic error is to push away from contingency which in turn creates more suffering. --Allan Badiner Quoting JKirkpatrick : > Stephen was interviewed after publishing Living with the Devil, > and had this to say about pratityasamutpada, contingency, and > samsara (excerpt): > http://www.dharmalife.com/issue25/devil.html > > 'Some of the first material I wrote for the new book was a > development of material that appeared years ago in a booklet > called Flight, which was an afterthought to Alone with Others. I > wanted to develop the idea that existential flight, which is the > human tendency to flee the difficult reality of experience > towards distraction or entertainment, is a natural response to > contingency. This word 'contingency' is how I translate > pratityasamutpada, or Dependent Arising, the Buddha's fundamental > teaching on the nature of Reality.' > > Batchelor's previous book, Verses from the Centre, was a poetic > rendering of a work by the Buddhist philosopher Nagarjuna, in > which this contingency is identified with sunyata or emptiness, > the lack of essential identity in phenomena. Samsara, the endless > cycle of suffering, is, Batchelor might say, this flight from > contingency. Instead of opening to the contingent, empty nature > of things, we endlessly seek for identity, security and > permanence. But this sets us in a vicious circle, since in our > quest for happiness we are evading Reality. In German, Batchelor > notes, a vicious circle is a Teufelskreis, a 'devil's circle': it > is the devil who deceives us into circling, getting nowhere. In > Buddhism this devil is called Mara. > > 'Mara,' he tells me, 'is a way of talking about the contingent > and imperfect structure of the world. A lot of western Buddhists, > and maybe Asian Buddhists, too, tend to read Mara as a > psychological function: as negative states of mind, attachments, > grasping and so on. This is only part of the picture. It fails to > see that Mara is a metaphor for the very structure of the > contingent world that is constantly breaking down, and exposing > you to death and the unpredictability of life itself. All that is > Mara.' > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From zelders.yh at wxs.nl Wed May 19 08:58:58 2010 From: zelders.yh at wxs.nl (Zelders.YH) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 16:58:58 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100519162946.024f81a8@wxs.nl> I have been puzzled too by Batchelor's use of the notion of 'contingency', and I consider it a very unfortunate choice of words to characterize the nature of the pratityasamutpada. On the other hand, the rhetorical question : "why is there anything at all rather than nothing' plays a key role in Batchelor's thinking. That question reveals the basic contingency of the whole of life, and in that light there is nothing that is not contingent, not even the necessary causal relations of the links of the p. . Do I think that that is what Batchelor meant ? Not really. From joy.vriens at gmail.com Wed May 19 10:18:22 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 18:18:22 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <20100519042751.7uhr5sm7swkco880@webmail.igc.apc.org> References: <20100519042751.7uhr5sm7swkco880@webmail.igc.apc.org> Message-ID: Allan wrote: So much of human behavior can be seen as a kind of flight from > contingency. > Something bothers me in the choice of the word flight. Perhaps that's what I couldn't put my finger on. The word flight in connexion to Buddhism, then again to moving away from Buddhism, moving away from a Unconditioned (where who knows what people could hide there), ready even to amputate the notions of Unconditioned and anything escaping our control. Flight is a judgement on those who "flee reality", contingency, truth, "things as they are" etc. by those who have access to those "things" or who know how to get access to them and give conferences and teachings on that topic. "Flight" suggests that the person using that word knows that something is being fled, what that something is, that it would be better to not flee that something, but that people for various reasons (ignorance, stubbornness, rebellion...) do flee it to their own disadvantage. It suggests that they know what is better for those people. The old the-wise-and-the-foolish syndrom. There are so many ways of fleeing and there can be so many examples of "not fleeing" (and its soothing effects) itself being a form of fleeing reality, that I can't see whether one can actually get anywhere with it. Not fleeing is not necessarily the answer. And what was the question and who asked it? There, I feel suspicious of the word flight and of those using it. I sense an attempt to manipulate. For my own good no doubt. Joy From peterfriedlander at yahoo.com.au Wed May 19 11:30:41 2010 From: peterfriedlander at yahoo.com.au (Peter Friedlander) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 10:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Wellcome Trust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <14400.62656.qm@web65701.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Dear Colleagues, that is very sad to hear, I used to work as a Cataloguer of Hindi Manuscripts (1991-1996) at the Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine, which contained the library. The Wellcome Trust Centre for the History of Medicine was always technically separate. So I don't think the collections will be directly affected. However, for an organisation which is I imagine, it certainly was, almost infinitely rich it seemed, such a decision does seem very hard to justify. regards Dr Peter Friedlander From gary.gach at gmail.com Wed May 19 12:05:52 2010 From: gary.gach at gmail.com (Gary Gach) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 11:05:52 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor Message-ID: Nietzche's will-to-power often translates as what he calls the overcoming of the self ... unclear whether his idealized super-person is arhat or bodhisattva --- Metta ----- Gary http://community.tricycle.com/group/tricyclecommunitypoetryclub/forum/topics/haiku-corner http://www.patheos.com/Religion-Portals/Buddhist.html From rhayes at unm.edu Wed May 19 12:11:40 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 12:11:40 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: <20100519042751.7uhr5sm7swkco880@webmail.igc.apc.org> Message-ID: On May 19, 2010, at 10:18 AM, Joy Vriens wrote: > Allan wrote: > > So much of human behavior can be seen as a kind of flight from > contingency. > Something bothers me in the choice of the word flight. Perhaps that's what I > couldn't put my finger on. The word flight in connexion to Buddhism, then > again to moving away from Buddhism, moving away from a Unconditioned (where > who knows what people could hide there), ready even to amputate the notions > of Unconditioned and anything escaping our control. As long as people are voicing what makes them uncomfortable, I have a terrible allergy to the term "Unconditioned" (spelled with a capital letter. What could it possibly mean? How does invoking such a word help? The word "flight" does not trouble me at all. I take it that it simply means that one is trying to run away from whatever frightens one, as in "fight or flight" as the two basic responses to threats. Contingency, as Dan explained very well, simply means the fact of being conditioned and therefore having a mode of being that is neither pure happenstance nor strictly determined or necessary. I take it that most Buddhist thinkers regarded everything, without exception, as caused (therefore not happenstance) but not necessary. So when one is trying to flee contingency, one is trying to escape what cannot possibly be escaped. There is no escaping contingency, so trying to feel it results most of the time in du?kham. > There, I feel suspicious of the word flight and of those using it. I sense > an attempt to manipulate. How long have you been having these flights into paranoia? Suspecting that people are trying to manipulate you is a form of du?kham that can easily be avoided. All you have to do is stop being suspicious. (A good start is to stop reading Lusthaus, who is suspicious of everything, but who almost always chooses fight over flight.) Richard From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed May 19 12:16:08 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 14:16:08 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor References: Message-ID: <003001caf77f$5ac222a0$2101a8c0@Dan> Nietzsche was a master of irony. Those statements need to understood in the light of his claims that there is no such thing as "self" and no such thing as "will." He didn't know the term praj~napti, but if did, he would have used it. Dan Gary Gach wrote: > Nietzche's will-to-power often translates as what he calls the overcoming > of > the self ... > unclear whether his idealized super-person is arhat or bodhisattva From rhayes at unm.edu Wed May 19 12:23:26 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 12:23:26 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wellcome Trust In-Reply-To: <14400.62656.qm@web65701.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <14400.62656.qm@web65701.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <973C7ACA-E344-4413-BD99-7E499C04B7F0@unm.edu> On May 19, 2010, at 11:30 AM, Peter Friedlander wrote: > However, for an organisation which is I imagine, it certainly was, almost infinitely rich it seemed, such a decision does seem very hard to justify. "Wherever there is a large class of academic professors who are provided with good incomes and looked up to as gentlemen, scientific inquiry must languish. Wherever the bureaucrats are the more learned class, the case will be still worse." (Charles S. Peirce, "The Scientific Attitude and Fallibilism") Everywhere, it seems, the enterprises of learning and research have been taken over by bureaucrats, who force the people who work for them to be bureaucrats as well. As a result, no matter where one looks these days, scientific inquiry and all forms of academic enterprise, are languishing. Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Wed May 19 13:04:02 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 13:04:02 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu> On May 19, 2010, at 12:05 PM, Gary Gach wrote: > Nietzche's will-to-power often translates as what he calls the overcoming of > the self ... > unclear whether his idealized super-person is arhat or bodhisattva I have always understood the will to power (and the term Nietzsche used earlier, the desire for power, Machgel?st) as the desire to overcome others, to dominate them, to master them and subdue them and to liberate oneself by overpowering everything that stands in the way of one's desires. Nietzsche even associates the desire for power with the pleasure that comes of cruelty towards others. The will to power, Nietzsche says, is the principal driving force of life itself. His utter contempt for systems of thought and practice that foster weakness in the form of meekness, gentleness and kindness is apparent in many of his writings from The Gay Science on through Beyond Good and Evil. The arhant and the bodhisattva would be the antithesis of Nietzsche's ?bermensch. The arhant hates life, fears life, seeks to escape life; he cannot face the prospect of an eternal return. (One finds a similar appraisal of Buddhism in some of the writings of William James, especially in his last lecture on Pragmatism.) An exemplar of Nietzsche's ?bermensch might be the Biblical Joshua, who kicks Canaanite butt and takes no prisoners as he grabs a land away from its peaceful former inhabitants and destroys all remnants of their religion; Joshua's namesake, Jesus, on the other hand, is the exact opposite of that: a pathetic loser who dies a pitiful death nailed to a tree by cruel Roman conquistadors who delight in tormenting him. As his life oozes out of his pain-wracked body Jesus asks God why God has forsaken him, and in the last moment Jesus forgives his executioners. What a wimp! Hardly a Nietzschean Superman. Bodhisattvas would be even worse! Although it is well known that Nietzsche knew little about Buddhism, I think if he had known about Buddhism what scholars today know of it, he would have hated it even more than the wimpy, life-fearing Buddhism he imagined on the basis of the scanty evidence available to Europeans of his day. Richard From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed May 19 13:42:30 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 15:42:30 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) References: <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu> Message-ID: <007c01caf78b$6b9c4a40$2101a8c0@Dan> Richard wrote: "Although it is well known that Nietzsche knew little about Buddhism, I think if he had known about Buddhism what scholars today know of it, he would have hated it even more than the wimpy, life-fearing Buddhism he imagined on the basis of the scanty evidence available to Europeans of his day." If Nietzsche's actual philosophy did indeed resemble that caricature of sadism unbridled, then perhaps, but the Ubermensch is also an ironic ideal. He does, for instance, practice restraint, but because of an overflow of his power (why bother with triflings), rather than fear of reprisal or self-inflicted moral reciprocities. For Nietzsche, the hug between two boxers after a hard-fought bout would be a more authentic expression of mutual admiration and respect than 1000 shopkeeper pleasantries. Nor do we have to imagine for him what he might have thought of Jesus, since in his essay _The Anti-Christ_ he spells that out for us. Jesus is an idiot-savant, whose power, as with all power, comes from effecting a major reversal in the way people think. While it's true that Jesus is one of those at the hub of a major reversal from master morality to slave morality (that was already taking place in India and elsewhere, according to Nietzsche), he doesn't find the master morality variety any more attractive than the slave kind. Its only therapeutic value is its history and potential for additional reversals. It is too strong, too insensitive, even for Nietzsche. Slave morality is a reaction, a repression of that -- and it can't be repressed. Why? The urge to overcome is a simple and basic fact of physics for Nietzsche. Any morality that extols self-crippling out of a superstitious fear that not doing so will fail to force others to not reciprocate, is doomed to breed unhappy, resentful slaves. That's why Richard is compelled to include snide remarks directed at me in messages that have nothing whatsoever to do with me at all. And why he resents Republicans (I just disagree with them). Dan From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed May 19 13:55:06 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 21:55:06 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <018001caf730$04ec3400$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100518020306.0252fa78@wxs.nl><4BF2B0AB.8010201@xs4all.nl> <018001caf730$04ec3400$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4BF4421A.1040307@xs4all.nl> Op 19-5-2010 10:48, Dan Lusthaus schreef: > Incidentally, Erik's observations on Batchelor and Sartre are on target. > > One minor correction. Contingency is not the opposite of causal. That would > be "accident" or random. In the Greek and medieval systems (i.e., > Aristoteleanism), there are three levels: Necessity, Contingency, and > Accident. > > Necessity concerns causes leading ineluctably to their effects, or, in terms > of formal causes, what is necessarily the case. Contingency happens for > reasons, has causes, but the results *could have been otherwise*. Accidental > means no rhyme or reason, absence of any sort of causal necessity at all. > > So, by Aristotelean lights, that a "human" is a "rational animal" is > necessary. That she was born on a particular date, or has hair of a > particular color, is contingent. Only anarchists and Western Carvakas argue > for accidents. The essential nature of something is "necessary." Whatever > could be otherwise (she could have been a he, had red hair instead of brown, > been born on a Tues. instead of a Wed., etc.) is contingent. That she has > brown hair, happened for reasons, but that was not necessary. The fact of > birth and death is necessary, but the facts of anyone's particular birth and > death are contingent. Buddha understood the twelve links as necessary, not > contingent. Because there is death, there necessarily is birth. And so on. > > > Dan, thanks for the enlightening excursion into Medieval philosophy. As you mention: we find the trinity mainly the Aristotelian-Thomistic view. Sartre was not very much bothered by the difference between contingency as God's will and contingency as co?ncidence. He was closer via Descartes to the tradition Augustine-Duns Scotus where contingency is just unnecessary and besides it was all ?tre en-soi to him. In this respect it may be interesting to mention that contigent events or things were seen to be caused by God also in the Augustinian tradition. So Batchelor runs the risk of coming back to God by a detour. The only thing that can save him is karma, but karma is statistic probability and still has an element of contingency. The Thomistic trinity is very useful to explain this, because karmic ripening could be otherwise, but it has a reason. Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://erik-hoogcarspel.blogspot.com/ Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed May 19 14:22:57 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 16:22:57 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100518020306.0252fa78@wxs.nl><4BF2B0AB.8010201@xs4all.nl> <018001caf730$04ec3400$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BF4421A.1040307@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <009e01caf791$120eaa30$2101a8c0@Dan> Erik, Since the medieval Muslim and Jewish philosphers were already many centuries into dividing things into necessity, contingency and accident -- without a hint of trinitarianism -- before Aquinas was born, the trinitarian application was a later grafting. Some held that God's will (and knowledge) only concerned Necessity (on the centrality of "Necessity" cf. the climax of the tale of Er in Bk. X of The Republic). God only knows universals, and his Will could only produce necessary effects. Contingency is the human world, where choice (another type of will) can occur. When modern philosophy jettisoned necessity, they also lost "certainty". Enter Sartre -- a pure philosophy of the will, projection can engender its own telos, living for the project, which can be invented ex nihilo. One may have moments of mauvais foi, even bad conscience, but the cause and cure lie in projecting projects. Sartre is very much in the medieval mold of contingency -- only he has rejected necessity. (and thus, also God and essences) As for being otherwise, Buddhism does deal with this sort of alterity: anyathatvam -- a crucial aspect that plays a key role in the Abhidharmakosa and in Sthiramati's Bhasya on the Trimsika. I devote a chapter to it in Buddhist Phenomenology under the heading "alterity." cheers, Dan From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed May 19 15:34:58 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 23:34:58 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <009e01caf791$120eaa30$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100518020306.0252fa78@wxs.nl><4BF2B0AB.8010201@xs4all.nl> <018001caf730$04ec3400$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BF4421A.1040307@xs4all.nl> <009e01caf791$120eaa30$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <4BF45982.7060007@xs4all.nl> Dan, Op 19-05-10 22:22, Dan Lusthaus schreef: > Some held that God's will (and knowledge) only concerned Necessity (on the > centrality of "Necessity" cf. the climax of the tale of Er in Bk. X of The > Republic). God only knows universals, and his Will could only produce > necessary effects. Contingency is the human world, where choice (another > type of will) can occur. Al Farabi, Duns Scotus and Thomas were positive about God's creation of contingent things. > When modern philosophy jettisoned necessity, they > also lost "certainty". Medieval philosohpers were not certain they were meshed in scriptural interpretations. Descartes found new certainty, according to himself, Locke, Kant, Hegel and many others. > Enter Sartre -- a pure philosophy of the will, > projection can engender its own telos, living for the project, which can be > invented ex nihilo. Engagement, mon ami, and choice, freedom and responsability. > > As for being otherwise, Buddhism does deal with this sort of alterity: > anyathatvam -- a crucial aspect that plays a key role in the Abhidharmakosa > and in Sthiramati's Bhasya on the Trimsika. I devote a chapter to it in > Buddhist Phenomenology under the heading "alterity." > > I hope to find soon an opportunity to read it. What's your opinion on the influence of S?mkhya on the Yogac?ra? I ask this because reading the phenomenologist Michel Henry reminded me of S?mkhya. erik From zelders.yh at wxs.nl Wed May 19 16:18:37 2010 From: zelders.yh at wxs.nl (Zelders.YH) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 00:18:37 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100519182222.024f82f0@wxs.nl> Joy wrote : >There is something in SB' discourse and reasoning that displeases me and >that I can't put my finger on. I don't know what he exactly means by >Buddhist existentialism, but I don't like the existential approach of being >caught and stuck in an existence from which no escape is possible except >through death. Alas, you seem to have all sorts of gloomy associations when you hear 'existentialism' mentioned. Well, we could also, without changing the content, call Batchelor's 'buddhist existentialism' an 'eudaimonistic' theory, and make everybody happy. Speaking for myself, I've always thought that the impossible task of the bodhisattva to save alle sentient beings is perfectly portrayed in Camus' 'Myth of Sisyphus'. The famous last sentence of that book reads : "The struggle itself is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy" , (let's all thank Wikipedia for the english translation). As for Batchelor, his idea is that one should not run away from suffering, but one should welcome it, investigate it and discover it as the First Noble Truth. Realizing the other three Noble Truths will necessarily follow, the four Truths form a causal chain, remember ? "Amor fati" is therefore what is needed, (oops, more Nietzsche). Herman From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed May 19 16:24:44 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 18:24:44 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100518020306.0252fa78@wxs.nl><4BF2B0AB.8010201@xs4all.nl> <018001caf730$04ec3400$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BF4421A.1040307@xs4all.nl><009e01caf791$120eaa30$2101a8c0@Dan> <4BF45982.7060007@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <00c201caf7a2$15aaacf0$2101a8c0@Dan> >What's your opinion on > the influence of S?mkhya on the Yogac?ra? I ask this because reading the > phenomenologist Michel Henry reminded me of S?mkhya. Anxiety of Influence (cf. Harold Bloom). Yogacara borrows a lot of Samkhyan terminology and more, and is at pains to point out the difference between their own use of such terms and the Samkhyan usage. Samkhya was big around the time that Yogacara started, and continued to be influential until the 8th c. or so, when it was eclipsed by other schools (Mimamsikas were the only Hindu atheists allowed after that -- even the Vaisesikas discovered God). >Al Farabi, Duns Scotus and Thomas were positive about God's creation of contingent things. I said "some", not "all." These were the sorts of things hotly debated at the time. Did God know particulars (i.e., individuals), or only universals (Ibn Rushd and Maimonides held the latter to be the case; Aquinas insisted he knew individuals). The contingent has SOME necessity in it -- and that is God's contribution. If he controls it all, then it is no longer contingent, everything becomes predestined, and all sorts of related problems follow. > > Enter Sartre -- a pure philosophy of the will, >> projection can engender its own telos, living for the project, which can >> be >> invented ex nihilo. >Engagement, mon ami, and choice, freedom and responsability. All defined vis-a-vis will. All matters of will par excellence. Dan From jkirk at spro.net Wed May 19 16:56:00 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 16:56:00 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6E6521522A8B49238AE94AF9C9485568@OPTIPLEX> Hi Joy I ignore anything anyone says about existentialism. period. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Joy Vriens Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 2:43 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Batchelor Hi Joanna, > > There is something in SB' discourse and reasoning that displeases me > and that I can't put my finger on. I don't know what he exactly means by Buddhist existentialism, but I don't like the existential approach of being caught and stuck in an existence from which no escape is possible except through death. First, I don't believe that is true. Second, there are different degrees of adhering to what "really" happens ("reality", what really happens as it happens in regard to what when there is no unconditioned reference point?). Even if existence is all there is, why would one be obliged to adhere and would the refusal to adhere or simply not adhering be considered as a flight? How much adherence is needed in order to not be considered as some sort of a deserter and what is one exactly supposed to be deserting from? Are we supposed to think every second of our existence that we are stuck and conditioned and to keep our noses right on the grindstone and would not doing this constitute a case of "fleeing the difficult reality"? Ridiculous. And what "reality" is one supposed to be fleeing from exactly? How do "difficult reality" and distraction from "it" relate to each other in contingency? It seems to me that although there is no Unconditioned for SB, there is something very real and fix about this "reality", that people want to flee and keep fleeing from. "Reality of experience". Experience is experience. What does reality have to with it? What does reality have to with anything at all in a contingent world? What is the link between reality and the hypothetical adherence to it? Joy _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Wed May 19 17:35:39 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 17:35:39 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) In-Reply-To: <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu> References: <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu> Message-ID: RH: "The arhant hates life, fears life, seeks to escape life; he cannot face the prospect of an eternal return." JK: Alas for them, that shows-- as Batchellor claims-- how deeply their minds were enmeshed in the imaginary of their times, with its literal belief in reincarnation (the wheel to get off of). As an anthropologist, especially, I find agreement with SB easy and an intriguing position from which to research the ancients. I suspect that that particular negative feature of arhanthood (assuming that he even deals with arhanthood) would be distasteful to SB. But perhaps it was the only view open to the intellectuals of those times who apparently were unable to view samsara as anything but evil. SB's idea on evil is provocative to say the least: Mara and Buddha are one--it's not dualism, either-or. Mara is the un-controlled un-insighted three poisons within us and our motives. He says (like Jesus said of the poor) that Mara will always be with us--it's how we deal with Mara that counts. SB loves life, as he says -- as opportunity to be a human who works, achieves, and enjoys what life offers while practicing (because au fond he is a Buddhist) to handle and remove the power of as much of the 3 poisons as he is able. RH's take on Nietzche and Buddhism, well-said. Joanna On May 19, 2010, at 12:05 PM, Gary Gach wrote: > Nietzche's will-to-power often translates as what he calls the > overcoming of the self ... > unclear whether his idealized super-person is arhat or bodhisattva I have always understood the will to power (and the term Nietzsche used earlier, the desire for power, Machgel?st) as the desire to overcome others, to dominate them, to master them and subdue them and to liberate oneself by overpowering everything that stands in the way of one's desires. Nietzsche even associates the desire for power with the pleasure that comes of cruelty towards others. The will to power, Nietzsche says, is the principal driving force of life itself. His utter contempt for systems of thought and practice that foster weakness in the form of meekness, gentleness and kindness is apparent in many of his writings from The Gay Science on through Beyond Good and Evil. The arhant and the bodhisattva would be the antithesis of Nietzsche's ?bermensch. The arhant hates life, fears life, seeks to escape life; he cannot face the prospect of an eternal return. (One finds a similar appraisal of Buddhism in some of the writings of William James, especially in his last lecture on Pragmatism.) An exemplar of Nietzsche's ?bermensch might be the Biblical Joshua, who kicks Canaanite butt and takes no prisoners as he grabs a land away from its peaceful former inhabitants and destroys all remnants of their religion; Joshua's namesake, Jesus, on the other hand, is the exact opposite of that: a pathetic loser who dies a pitiful death nailed to a tree by cruel Roman conquistadors who delight in tormenting him. As his life oozes out of his pain-wracked body Jesus asks God why God has forsaken him, and in the last moment Jesus forgives his executioners. What a wimp! Hardly a Nietzschean Superman. Bodhisattvas would be even worse! Although it is well known that Nietzsche knew little about Buddhism, I think if he had known about Buddhism what scholars today know of it, he would have hated it even more than the wimpy, life-fearing Buddhism he imagined on the basis of the scanty evidence available to Europeans of his day. Richard From bathieme at hotmail.com Wed May 19 17:56:03 2010 From: bathieme at hotmail.com (Barnaby Thieme) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 16:56:03 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) In-Reply-To: <007c01caf78b$6b9c4a40$2101a8c0@Dan> References: , <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu>, <007c01caf78b$6b9c4a40$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: > From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net > If Nietzsche's actual philosophy did indeed resemble that caricature of > sadism unbridled, then perhaps.... To put it mildly. "Rather perish than hate and fear, and twice rather perish than make oneself hated and feared -- this must someday become the highest maxim for every single commonwealth too." (emphasis in original) Nietzsche spells out again and again what he means by the Will to Power -- a self-overcoming, a revaluation of values. Check out his long description of the concept in Thus Spoke Zarathustra, in the section "On the Thousand and One Goals". Barnaby~ _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From bernie.simon at gmail.com Wed May 19 18:02:40 2010 From: bernie.simon at gmail.com (Bernard Simon) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:02:40 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Swedenborg & Mesmer Message-ID: On the subject of the history of medicine, this book looks like it will be interesting: "Swedenborg, Mesmer, and the Mind/Body Connection: The Roots of Complementary Medicine" http://amzn.to/9hbBRS From rhayes at unm.edu Wed May 19 20:41:45 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:41:45 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) In-Reply-To: References: , <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu>, <007c01caf78b$6b9c4a40$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <792EA57B-F656-44F7-9BC1-4FD2DEE84A89@unm.edu> On May 19, 2010, at 17:56, Barnaby Thieme wrote: > >> Nietzsche spells out again and again what he means by the Will to >> Power -- a self-overcoming, a revaluation of values. Although I've read quite a bit of Nietzsche, I've never seen anything other than the kind of thing I reported from Genealogy of Morals. If he says again and again what you claim, perhaps you wouldn't mind sending in a reference or two. My interest in Nietzsche is limited. It fascinates me how insightful psychotic people can be, and Nietzsche was both insightful and psychotic. Richard From joy.vriens at gmail.com Thu May 20 00:18:22 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 08:18:22 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: <20100519042751.7uhr5sm7swkco880@webmail.igc.apc.org> Message-ID: On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 8:11 PM, Richard Hayes wrote: > On May 19, 2010, at 10:18 AM, Joy Vriens wrote: > > > Allan wrote: > > > > So much of human behavior can be seen as a kind of flight from > > contingency. > > > Something bothers me in the choice of the word flight. Perhaps that's > what I > > couldn't put my finger on. The word flight in connexion to Buddhism, then > > again to moving away from Buddhism, moving away from a Unconditioned > (where > > who knows what people could hide there), ready even to amputate the > notions > > of Unconditioned and anything escaping our control. > > As long as people are voicing what makes them uncomfortable, I have a > terrible allergy to the term "Unconditioned" (spelled with a capital letter. > What could it possibly mean? How does invoking such a word help? > > I believe it's a positive thing to acknowledge one's feelings of discomfort. Invoking words like "Unconditioned" already have the advantage to help one to reveal one's allergies. Terrible allergies reveal a strong reaction. For me this would be an invitation to look into why I react so strongly. What does the Unconditioned mean? Everything means something. Our meaning feature is always active. The Unconditioned is a regime without meaning. It's a meaning-free zone. Peace. Everything is conditioned in this world, there is nothing that isn't conditioned. Hooks and eyes are active everywhere all over the place. Usually we play the conditioning game. The Unconditioned doesn't mean there is a bastion, state etc. that escapes condition, it simply means one has the choice to not be conditioned by conditioning. There is a social me, a psychological me a physical me that are part of the conditioning network. If one totally identifies with them, if one adheres to them, then one is conditioned. But once can also let them play out their roles in the conditioned clockwork, without too much identification and adherence, some say it's possible without hardly any adherence (or is it adhesion?) at all. They call it detachment or disinterested action. Well this detachment or disinterested action comes very close to what I would consider the Unconditioned. The capital letter is merely warning one to not step inadvertently with one's foot into the capitalised word. and to give it special care and thought. You know like with poetry. In order to read poetry one needs a special disposition, one doesn't read poetry like one reads a User's guide. The Unconditioned is simply a word that invites not to storm in with one's usual logical materialist armour, where words share the same logical value and can be replaced by X, Y and Z . I can give you another example that you will probably don't have a strong allergy towards. Heart, like in "look with your heart". I could write it with a capital letter Heart in order to warn more obtuse people no to look with their "muscular organ with a circulatory system, responsible for pumping blood throughout the blood vessels by repeated, rhythmic contractions". > The word "flight" does not trouble me at all. I take it that it simply > means that one is trying to run away from whatever frightens one, as in > "fight or flight" as the two basic responses to threats. There is more than fight or flight. The Unconditioned, Non-duality, Wu Wei etc. etc. offer at least a third possibility, Arjuna was offered a third possibility. It is in order to escape the hellish stalemate of "fight" or "flight", also called samsara, that an Unconditioned, also called nirvana was presented. Nowhere it has been said that it "exists", the way "fight and flight" exist. There is a life outside binary reality, that's probably where the real life is. Sartre wants us to make choices and to identify with those choices and then he logically lives in a world where "l'enfer c'est les autres". Oneself being another as well. Existing and conditioned. > > How long have you been having these flights into paranoia? Suspecting that > people are trying to manipulate you is a form of du?kham that can easily be > avoided. All you have to do is stop being suspicious. (A good start is to > stop reading Lusthaus, who is suspicious of everything, but who almost > always chooses fight over flight.) > > Paranoia? du?kham? Duh! A good chessplayer is always thinking all possible > moves in advance. I can't even think the next move properly. But I can > always flee back to the Unconditioned when the going gets tough. Curiosity > and intelligence shouldn't be automatically considered paranoia. Hey are you > interested in buying the Eiffel tower? Your price is mine. > > Joy > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From joy.vriens at gmail.com Thu May 20 00:20:28 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 08:20:28 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <6E6521522A8B49238AE94AF9C9485568@OPTIPLEX> References: <6E6521522A8B49238AE94AF9C9485568@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Joanna: I ignore anything anyone says about existentialism. period. And right you are. I will join you. But I am still curious to know what they try to sell me. Joy From joy.vriens at gmail.com Thu May 20 00:43:16 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 08:43:16 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Swedenborg & Mesmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bernie, If you read French, this is an interesting read. *http://tinyurl.com/25h2vmp *Here's a short review of several books in which Bertrand M?heut's book is mentioned. He is a philosopher, so it's ok. :-) http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-78127769/animal-magnetism-and-psychic.html Joy On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 2:02 AM, Bernard Simon wrote: > On the subject of the history of medicine, this book looks like it > will be interesting: "Swedenborg, Mesmer, and the Mind/Body > Connection: The Roots of Complementary Medicine" > > http://amzn.to/9hbBRS > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From joy.vriens at gmail.com Thu May 20 01:36:17 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 09:36:17 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) In-Reply-To: <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu> References: <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu> Message-ID: Richard wrote: "The arhant hates life, fears life, seeks to escape life; he cannot face the prospect of an eternal return. (One finds a similar appraisal of Buddhism in some of the writings of William James, especially in his last lecture on Pragmatism.)" No, no and no. I will have to call good old Louis de la Vall?e Poussin back into service. "Voici maintenant trente ans que j'ai expos? la vraie explication. Mais en dehors de la phalange des ?tudiants du p?li, la vieille bourde (the old blunder) continue ? ?tre souvent r?p?t?e". (Early Buddhism, p. 73-74 (1908) ; Buddhism, 1877, 1907 (22th ?d.), p. 110) Nirvana, Editions Dharma 2001, p.82 See the conversation between Ud?yin and Ananda about "Nirvana in this very life" (ditthadhammanibbana), "nirvana in this world" (nippariyayena) and the felicities of the world (drstadharmasukhavihara) - Nirvana p. 80. And if Nirvana is possible in this life and in this world, and since Nirvana is also called the Unconditioned, then perhaps "the Unconditioned" is possible in this life, in this world, in existence... Perhaps the arhant, like his Christian brethren, is living the real life, only escaping sin, a life without Life and says yes to Life. > Although it is well known that Nietzsche knew little about Buddhism, I > think if he had known about Buddhism what scholars today know of it, he > would have hated it even more than the wimpy, life-fearing Buddhism he > imagined on the basis of the scanty evidence available to Europeans of his > day. > > I think scholars of today ought to read good old Louis again. Joy From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu May 20 02:45:36 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 04:45:36 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) References: , <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu>, <007c01caf78b$6b9c4a40$2101a8c0@Dan> <792EA57B-F656-44F7-9BC1-4FD2DEE84A89@unm.edu> Message-ID: <002101caf7f8$d17c8830$2101a8c0@Dan> Perhaps while Barnaby finds the time to gather some addtional references for Richard, the following will suffice to indicate that Richard's caricature of Nietzsche is in need of revision. from -- what else? -- Wikipedia. Note the last sentence: "Nietzsche argued that two types of morality existed: a master morality that springs actively from the 'noble man', and a slave morality that develops reactively within the weak man. These two moralities do not present simple inversions of one another; they form two different value systems: master morality fits actions into a scale of 'good' or 'bad' whereas slave morality fits actions into a scale of 'good' or 'evil'. Notably he disdained both, though the first clearly less than the second." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_Friedrich_Nietzsche This is one time Wikipedia got it right. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Thu May 20 08:15:27 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 08:15:27 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: <20100519042751.7uhr5sm7swkco880@webmail.igc.apc.org> Message-ID: <65D818D6-C175-4C66-AB18-BE1C228A55D1@unm.edu> On May 20, 2010, at 0:18, Joy Vriens wrote: > > > What does the Unconditioned mean? Everything means something. Our > meaning > feature is always active. The Unconditioned is a regime without > meaning. > It's a meaning-free zone. That's what I thought. It's a meaningless word. That's why it's written with a capital letter, like other meaningless words: God, Absolute, Terrorist, Sarah Palin. richard From rhayes at unm.edu Thu May 20 08:25:25 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 08:25:25 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) In-Reply-To: References: <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu> Message-ID: <2692D4CF-5EEB-4836-ABD9-44C541029F47@unm.edu> On May 20, 2010, at 1:36, Joy Vriens wrote: > Richard wrote: > > "The arhant hates life, fears life, seeks to escape life; he cannot > face the > prospect of an eternal return. (One finds a similar appraisal of > Buddhism in > some of the writings of William James, especially in his last > lecture on > Pragmatism.)" > > No, no and no. I will have to call good old Louis de la Vall?e Pouss > in back > into service. He is by far my favorite Buddhologist. I can't see how citing him is at all relevant to this discussion, but I'm always glad to see him cited. Just in case anyone is unclear about where I stand in all this, I don't agree with Nietzsche's assessment of Buddhism, or with James's, but I do think they are completely right in their assessment of it. richArd From rhayes at unm.edu Thu May 20 08:34:16 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 08:34:16 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) In-Reply-To: <002101caf7f8$d17c8830$2101a8c0@Dan> References: , <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu>, <007c01caf78b$6b9c4a40$2101a8c0@Dan> <792EA57B-F656-44F7-9BC1-4FD2DEE84A89@unm.edu> <002101caf7f8$d17c8830$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <37442B42-2CA8-437E-9B12-38C0429E8E8D@unm.edu> On May 20, 2010, at 2:45, "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: > Perhaps while Barnaby finds the time to gather some addtional > references for > Richard, the following will suffice to indicate that Richard's > caricature of > Nietzsche is in need of revision. You clearly have no idea what a caricature is. A caricature is a deliberate portrayal of something so as to make it look grotesque. If my portrayal of Nietzsche is wrong, so be it. I'm just reporting what he writes in Genealogy of Morals. My portrayal is neither parody nor caricature. Your citation from wikipedia is exactly how I understand Nietzsche. So if my portrayal is wrong, so is Mr Wiki's. riChard From Jackhat1 at aol.com Thu May 20 08:56:26 2010 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 10:56:26 EDT Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) Message-ID: <62de6.30ed0250.3926a79a@aol.com> In a message dated 5/19/2010 2:04:27 P.M. Central Daylight Time, rhayes at unm.edu writes: I have always understood the will to power (and the term Nietzsche used earlier, the desire for power, Machgel?st) as the desire to overcome others, to dominate them, to master them and subdue them and to liberate oneself by overpowering everything that stands in the way of one's desires. == My understanding of Nietzsche's will to power is the elemental force of the universe as exemplified by living things, Bergson's elan vital, the power of a plant to burst through the soil or a person's mental and physical drive toward health and continuation. jack From jkirk at spro.net Thu May 20 08:58:54 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 08:58:54 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Swedenborg & Mesmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F55CD1632D44A0CB6D7329E8539D9D4@OPTIPLEX> Sounds very worthwhile-- what a decent price for 344 pages. Not out until September. JK Bernie wrote: On the subject of the history of medicine, this book looks like it will be interesting: "Swedenborg, Mesmer, and the Mind/Body Connection: The Roots of Complementary Medicine" http://amzn.to/9hbBRS _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Thu May 20 09:12:35 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 09:12:35 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: <6E6521522A8B49238AE94AF9C9485568@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <462A8E6BDA0F4AB7B71BFC684A4690C1@OPTIPLEX> Not necessary to understand every single commodity that is being perpetrated on the world. Mind-cluttering by 'info'-overload. Joanna Joanna: I ignore anything anyone says about existentialism. period. And right you are. I will join you. But I am still curious to know what they try to sell me. Joy _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Thu May 20 09:17:15 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 09:17:15 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) In-Reply-To: <002101caf7f8$d17c8830$2101a8c0@Dan> References: , <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu>, <007c01caf78b$6b9c4a40$2101a8c0@Dan><792EA57B-F656-44F7-9BC1-4FD2DEE84A89@unm.edu> <002101caf7f8$d17c8830$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <0695593D86784067AFAC58B4E2DB4610@OPTIPLEX> What's lacking in Nietzche (as in some other post-idealists of his period, no time to enumerate them now) is any social structural analysis that recognises character as not only a function of one's will or intentions (of one's "morality") but as well of one's position in the political economy. JK "Nietzsche argued that two types of morality existed: a master morality that springs actively from the 'noble man', and a slave morality that develops reactively within the weak man. These two moralities do not present simple inversions of one another; they form two different value systems: master morality fits actions into a scale of 'good' or 'bad' whereas slave morality fits actions into a scale of 'good' or 'evil'. Notably he disdained both, though the first clearly less than the second." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_Friedrich_Nietzsche This is one time Wikipedia got it right. Dan _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From joy.vriens at gmail.com Thu May 20 09:17:36 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 17:17:36 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] On positive Nirvana here and now (LVP) Message-ID: Richard wrote: > [Lewis of Chick Valley] is by far my favorite Buddhologist. I can't see how > citing him is > at all relevant to this discussion, but I'm always glad to see him > cited. > > I see him as very relevant since, according to himself (Nirvana, avant-propos), he had been writing for more than thirty years against a nihilistic, agnostic definition of Nirvana by buddhologists (I removed the capital B), whereas he quoted evidence of positive definitions of Nirvana in early Buddhism and of a nirvana in the world, but not conditioned by the world. Joy From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu May 20 09:23:29 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 11:23:29 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) References: , <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu>, <007c01caf78b$6b9c4a40$2101a8c0@Dan><792EA57B-F656-44F7-9BC1-4FD2DEE84A89@unm.edu><002101caf7f8$d17c8830$2101a8c0@Dan> <37442B42-2CA8-437E-9B12-38C0429E8E8D@unm.edu> Message-ID: <007101caf830$66b77c20$2101a8c0@Dan> Tedious... > You clearly have no idea what a caricature is. Yes I do. It's what you do with whatever I say about anything. Tedious. >Your citation from wikipedia is exactly how I understand > Nietzsche. So if my portrayal is wrong, so is Mr Wiki's. The Wikipedia blurb points out that Nietzsche is NOT a proponent of Master morality. You painted a picture of him that would require him to be so -- and your portrayal of master morality was a caricature, not the rich picture of health that Neitzsche sketches based on Greek and Roman sources of their idea of heroes and nobles. Tedious. Dan From joy.vriens at gmail.com Thu May 20 09:24:10 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 17:24:10 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) In-Reply-To: <62de6.30ed0250.3926a79a@aol.com> References: <62de6.30ed0250.3926a79a@aol.com> Message-ID: Jack: My understanding of Nietzsche's will to power is the elemental force of > the universe as exemplified by living things, Bergson's elan vital, the > power > of a plant to burst through the soil or a person's mental and physical > drive toward health and continuation. > > > Nice. Has anyone compared this with the trika or pratibhijna concept of > svatantra ("absolute will")? > Joy From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu May 20 09:29:19 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 11:29:19 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) References: , <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu>, <007c01caf78b$6b9c4a40$2101a8c0@Dan><792EA57B-F656-44F7-9BC1-4FD2DEE84A89@unm.edu><002101caf7f8$d17c8830$2101a8c0@Dan> <0695593D86784067AFAC58B4E2DB4610@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <008001caf831$377dd5c0$2101a8c0@Dan> Joanna, > What's lacking in Nietzche [...] is any social > structural analysis that recognises character as not only a > function of one's will or intentions (of one's "morality") but as > well of one's position in the political economy. It's been awhile since you've actually read Nietzsche, hasn't it? As the old tv commercial used to say: "It's in there." He's not a marxist, of course, but class resentiments are integral to his analysis -- except he sees forces, such as those that breed resentiment, as more primary. Dan From jkirk at spro.net Thu May 20 09:35:42 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 09:35:42 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) In-Reply-To: <008001caf831$377dd5c0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: , <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu>, <007c01caf78b$6b9c4a40$2101a8c0@Dan><792EA57B-F656-44F7-9BC1-4FD2DEE84A89@unm.edu><002101caf7f8$d17c8830$2101a8c0@Dan><0695593D86784067AFAC58B4E2DB4610@OPTIPLEX> <008001caf831$377dd5c0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: Joanna, > What's lacking in Nietzche [...] is any social structural analysis > that recognises character as not only a function of one's will or > intentions (of one's "morality") but as well of one's position in the > political economy. It's been awhile since you've actually read Nietzsche, hasn't it? As the old tv commercial used to say: "It's in there." He's not a marxist, of course, but class resentiments are integral to his analysis -- except he sees forces, such as those that breed resentiment, as more primary. Dan ----------------------- I see N. as basically psychologically -oriented, not sociologically-oriented. Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Thu May 20 09:39:54 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 09:39:54 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <4BF398B3.3020106@xs4all.nl> References: <4BF398B3.3020106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: quoting from SB: >[...] Instead of opening to the contingent, empty nature of things, we > endlessly seek for identity, security and permanence. But this sets us > in a vicious circle, since in our quest for happiness we are evading > Reality. In German, Batchelor notes, a vicious circle is a > Teufelskreis, a 'devil's circle': it is the devil who deceives us into > circling, getting nowhere. In Buddhism this devil is called Mara. > > I understand that this image of the Devil is a poetical expression. Batchelor's use of ' contingency' is however at least confusing. Prat?tyasamutp?da is a relation between events, while contingency means that there's no relation at all. A philosopher for whom contingency was very important was J-P Sartre. He liked movies very much and observed that the difference between a movie and reality is that reality has no director, so contingency is the trademark of the real. Has Batchelor been reading Sartre? erik ------------------ He does refer to Sartre here and there, also Camus as I recall-- I ignore references to the French existentialists, especially Sartre. Not neccesary for understanding what SB is writing about. Joanna From bathieme at hotmail.com Thu May 20 09:39:46 2010 From: bathieme at hotmail.com (Barnaby Thieme) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 08:39:46 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) In-Reply-To: <792EA57B-F656-44F7-9BC1-4FD2DEE84A89@unm.edu> References: , , <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu>, , <007c01caf78b$6b9c4a40$2101a8c0@Dan>, , <792EA57B-F656-44F7-9BC1-4FD2DEE84A89@unm.edu> Message-ID: > Although I've read quite a bit of Nietzsche, I've never seen anything > other than the kind of thing I reported from Genealogy of Morals. If > he says again and again what you claim, perhaps you wouldn't mind > sending in a reference or two. If you're interested in following up on this topic, you might have a look at the section I mentioned in my previous email, "On the Thousand Goals" in Thus Spoke Zarathustra. best, Barnaby _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From zelders.yh at wxs.nl Thu May 20 09:55:14 2010 From: zelders.yh at wxs.nl (Zelders.YH) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 17:55:14 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100520164711.024f9a68@wxs.nl> Joanna wrote : >I ignore anything anyone says about existentialism. period. Better to dump Batchelor's book then. It is all too clear that Batchelor owes a large debt to existentialist philosophers and theologians. He mentions Husserl, Heidegger and L?vinas as philosophers in which he got interested at a certain point, and he explicitly names Martin Buber, Gabriel Marcel, John Macquarrie and esp. Paul Tillich as thinkers that influenced him. He also states that he has a geater affinity with the theologian Don Cupitt than with any living Buddhist thinker. Cupitt is also influenced by existentialist thought. Batchelor also mentions the maverick bhikkhu Nyanavira, who was interested in Kierkegaard, Husserl, Heidegger and Sartre, and who experimented with existentialist interpretations of buddhist thought in the fifties. Batchelor shares Nyanavira's view that : "[.] the existentialist philosophers can provide a helpful bridge, especially to a modern reader puzzled by the jargon of Buddhism to understanding the relevance of Gotama's discourses in the Pali Canon to their own lives."(pp.144-5). Batchelor's first attempt to formulate his own thought was an essay called 'The Existential Foundations of Buddhism', the subtitle of his first book 'Alone with Others' was 'An Existential Approach to Buddhism'. One could go on, but I'll rest my case. I'm beginning to wonder, has anyone actually read the whole book ? Herman From rhayes at unm.edu Thu May 20 11:28:38 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 11:28:38 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] On positive Nirvana here and now (LVP) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know La Vallee Poussin's views on nirvana very well. But how are they relevant to the discussion of Nietzsche? Or was LVP brought up in that context? I see LVP's views as having no bearing at all on Nietzsche or, for that matter, the Unconditioned. But that's fine. If you see a connection and find the connection useful in some way, I'm content. Richard Hayes From rhayes at unm.edu Thu May 20 11:31:43 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 11:31:43 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) In-Reply-To: <007101caf830$66b77c20$2101a8c0@Dan> References: , <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu>, <007c01caf78b$6b9c4a40$2101a8c0@Dan><792EA57B-F656-44F7-9BC1-4FD2DEE84A89@unm.edu><002101caf7f8$d17c8830$2101a8c0@Dan> <37442B42-2CA8-437E-9B12-38C0429E8E8D@unm.edu> <007101caf830$66b77c20$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: You clearly need a vacation, Dan. You twist everything I say and then find what you imagine I say tedious. It must be tiresome to find so many things tedious. Richard Hayes > From rhayes at unm.edu Thu May 20 11:39:46 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 11:39:46 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) In-Reply-To: References: , , <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu>, , <007c01caf78b$6b9c4a40$2101a8c0@Dan>, , <792EA57B-F656-44F7-9BC1-4FD2DEE84A89@unm.edu> Message-ID: <5A595583-084F-43BB-A0B2-A9623E2CE03B@unm.edu> Thanks, Barnaby. I know that section pretty well and apparently read it differerently than you do. But I am surrounded by Nietzsche experts in my department. I'll talk with them and not waste people's time on bullshoot-l. I'll also go back and reread Robert Morrison's book on Nietzsche and Buddhism. Richard Hayes From bathieme at hotmail.com Thu May 20 12:24:54 2010 From: bathieme at hotmail.com (Barnaby Thieme) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 11:24:54 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) In-Reply-To: <5A595583-084F-43BB-A0B2-A9623E2CE03B@unm.edu> References: , ,,<210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu>, , , <007c01caf78b$6b9c4a40$2101a8c0@Dan>, , , , <792EA57B-F656-44F7-9BC1-4FD2DEE84A89@unm.edu>, , <5A595583-084F-43BB-A0B2-A9623E2CE03B@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hello, The inimitable Richard Hayes said: > I know that section pretty well and apparently read > it differerently than you do. Well, certainly the primary interpretive challenge posed by Nietzsche is his resistance to systematic exposition, as you previously noted. It's hard to avoid reading any passage in the light of what one takes to be his general meaning. I'll make a better effort in the next day or so to make a stronger and more expansive case for my reading of the doctrine of the Will to Power. My sense of the doctrine is that Nietzsche used it in different contexts, primarily as a psychological principle by which individuals seek to maximize their self-expression over and against the competing self-expression of others, perhaps exemplified by the ancient Greek concept of agon, which he presents quite well in "Homer's Contest". As he thought more deeply on the idea over the years, in my view he came to regard it as a kind of quasi-metaphysical principle -- that all phenomena in nature are self-expressing unto the point at which they are constrained by limiting factors or competing processes. That interpretation of the Will to Power is made clear in Beyond Good and Evil -- as I recall off the top of my head, he's fairly clear about it in his section on Natural Law. In that reading, the Will to Power rather reminds me of Spinoza's idea of "conatus", which holds that each thing has an intrinsic nature which it naturally tries to express through its being and action. Nietzsche, of course, admired Spinoza. It seems to me that Nietzsche meant many things by Will to Power, and sometimes used it to describe the literal overcoming of people through force, though in my overall reading of his work I seem to recall that he held violence to be a base and low expression of Will to Power, which finds its highest expression in acts of true creation and revaluation. I tend to (over?-)react to a strong reading of the Will to Power as the domination of others, in parts because of quotes like the one I provided from "The Wanderer and His Shadow", in part because of his clear rejection of violence, which is perhaps more clear in his biography than his writing, and in part because for decades Nietzsche was grotesquely miscontrued as a proto-Nazi or fascist. I think Walter Kauffmann, in addition to providing the most poetic translations of Nietzsche into English we possess, also effectively dismantled the Nazi interpretation of Nietzsche. The clearest relationship that I see between Nietzsche and Buddhism is in Nietzsche's rejection of essentialist metaphysical postures, such as we find in "How the Real World Became a Fable" in "Twilight of the Idols", which to my ears closely resemble the arguments of Madhyamikas like Candrakirti. pax, Barnaby _________________________________ More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction. Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly. -- Woody Allen _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From Jackhat1 at aol.com Thu May 20 12:34:33 2010 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 14:34:33 EDT Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) Message-ID: <5d7c.102f4182.3926dab9@aol.com> In a message dated 5/20/2010 10:24:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, joy.vriens at gmail.com writes: My understanding of Nietzsche's will to power is the elemental force of > the universe as exemplified by living things, Bergson's elan vital, the > power > of a plant to burst through the soil or a person's mental and physical > drive toward health and continuation. > > > Nice. Has anyone compared this with the trika or pratibhijna concept of > svatantra ("absolute will")? ======= Interesting that in Zarathustra.Nietzche lifts a parable from Samyuttanikaya 268-169: "Bhikkhus, once there was an acrobat who set up his bamboo pole and called to his student, saying, "Come here and climb the pole and stand on my shoulders," and the pupil did as he was told. Then the bamboo acrobat said to his pupil, "Now, you take good care of me and I'll take good care of you. By watching over and protecting each other like this, we will show off our skills, get a good fee, and safely descend from the bamboo pole." At these words, the pupil said to his teacher, "Teacher, I don't think I can do that. You look after yourself and I will look after myself. If we both watch and protect ourselves then we will be able to show our art, get a good fee, and safely descend the bamboo pole." The Blessed One said, "That was the correct thing to do in that case: Just as that pupil spoke to his master, when thinking, 'I will protect myself,' you must be mindful, and when thinking, 'I will protect others,' you must also be mindful. Bhikkhus, protecting yourself, you protect others; protecting others, you protect yourself. And how is it that while protecting yourself you protect others? By earnest practice, development, training, and making the most of it. In this way, when you protect yourself, you protect others. And how do you protect others by protecting yourself? By proper resolve {chanda), by non-violence, by possessing a heart of loving-kindness and compassion. In this way, protecting others, you protect yourself. Bhikkhus, when thinking, 'I will protect myself,' you must be mindful. When thinking, 'I will protect others,' you must also be mindful. In this way, protecting yourself can be called protecting others, and protecting others can be called protecting yourself." Jack > From jehms at xs4all.nl Thu May 20 13:18:09 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 21:18:09 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20100520164711.024f9a68@wxs.nl> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100520164711.024f9a68@wxs.nl> Message-ID: <4BF58AF1.3040401@xs4all.nl> Op 20-05-10 17:55, Zelders.YH schreef: > Joanna wrote : > >> I ignore anything anyone says about existentialism. period. >> You would also have to forsake Schopenhauer, whose delightful writings mark the beginnings of existential philosophy (as were the wrtitings of Kierkegaard). > Better to dump Batchelor's book then. > > It is all too clear that Batchelor owes a large > debt to existentialist philosophers and theologians. > I'm beginning to wonder, has anyone actually read the whole book ? > > A few more of your posts and we will not have to, thank you, Herman. But not to worry, one of these days... erik From jehms at xs4all.nl Thu May 20 13:31:47 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 21:31:47 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor In-Reply-To: References: , , , <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu>, , , <007c01caf78b$6b9c4a40$2101a8c0@Dan>, , , , <792EA57B-F656-44F7-9BC1-4FD2DEE84A89@unm.edu>, , <5A595583-084F-43BB-A0B2-A9623E2CE03B@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4BF58E23.1070203@xs4all.nl> Op 20-05-10 20:24, Barnaby Thieme schreef: > It seems to me that Nietzsche meant many things by Will to Power, and sometimes used it to describe the literal overcoming of people through force, though in my overall reading of his work I seem to recall that he held violence to be a base and low expression of Will to Power, which finds its highest expression in acts of true creation and revaluation. > > I agree with you on all points. The last one about creativity explains why Nietzsche hated violence and the masses. It also makes it very improbable that he would have had much sympathy for Buddhism if he knew it like we do. He would perhaps have liked the sadhu-movement and the B?uls, but the Buddhists are much to serious and make it their hobby to avoid opposing forces. erik From rhayes at unm.edu Thu May 20 14:16:45 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 14:16:45 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) In-Reply-To: References: , , , <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu>, , , <007c01caf78b$6b9c4a40$2101a8c0@Dan>, , , , <792EA57B-F656-44F7-9BC1-4FD2DEE84A89@unm.edu>, , <5A595583-084F-43BB-A0B2-A9623E2CE03B@unm.edu> Message-ID: <37D4FD1B-8227-46F6-B690-11554B88C6D7@unm.edu> On May 20, 2010, at 12:24, Barnaby Thieme wrote: > It seems to me that Nietzsche meant many things by Will to Power, > and sometimes used it to describe the literal overcoming of people > through force, though in my overall reading of his work I seem to > recall that he held violence to be a base and low expression of Will > to Power, which finds its highest expression in acts of true > creation and revaluation. Yes, that is pretty much exactly how I understand it. Will to power is a very polysemous expression. There is a noble and magnanimous expression of it, a coarse expression of it. The more magnanimous form is not much different from noblesse oblige. > The clearest relationship that I see between Nietzsche and Buddhism > is in Nietzsche's rejection of essentialist metaphysical postures, > such as we find in "How the Real World Became a Fable" in "Twilight > of the Idols", which to my ears closely resemble the arguments of > Madhyamikas like Candrakirti. Yes, I think that is true. Or perhaps I should say that interpretation is very much like mine. "There are no truths, only interpretations." Or something like that. Richard From jkirk at spro.net Thu May 20 14:32:45 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 14:32:45 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20100520164711.024f9a68@wxs.nl> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100520164711.024f9a68@wxs.nl> Message-ID: <55195EAFCDF440A9BFAD733D27C57E23@OPTIPLEX> HZ: Joanna wrote : >I ignore anything anyone says about existentialism. period. Better to dump Batchelor's book then. JK: That's silly. HZ: " Martin Buber......and esp. Paul Tillich...thinkers that influenced him." JK: Who says these scholars were existentialists? Influence is not the same as membership in the cult. Also, I don't see Husserl and Levinas as existentialists. They were prominent European theologians and or philosophers, not members of the cult led by Sartre. To me it's OK if SB once wrote on his view of existentialism as a 'foundation' in Buddhism, and other influences--he writes in his latest book that he once had a strong interest in existentialism. I probably didn't read that bit carefully because I don't recall what he said--whatever it was, it was about his personal journey; I don't view his book as a treatise on existentialism. However, yes-- I did read the whole book. If Nyanavira (referred to by SB) was taking note of the existentialists fashionable in his day, so what? His death made it all too clear that he was deeply identified with the Theravada vinaya. That SB felt compelled, or interested, to think over Heidegger and some of the others, is not an argument in favor of dumping his book. SB thinks for himself; as he models being a philosopher, he is courteous to other kinds of thinking going on around him before his, or after their, lives that influenced him. Everybody is influenced by more than one of the many critiques on offer now, from the past, or projected into the future. Somebody recently mentioned Bloom's "anxiety of influence"; yes, it is always at work. Arguing about who is or is not a_____[name the brand]___ is pointless. We all should be accorded the freedom to approve of, be influenced by, or to ignore whichever and whomever. What I meant when I asserted that I "ignore anything anyone says about existentialism," but wasn't too clear about, is that I might read what someone says or not, but I won't discuss it if it's about existentialism. I even avoided discussing it now. Nice thing about a book is that you are not in a position to discuss with the author-- except maybe virtually on Boodle-L. Joanna _________________________________ It is all too clear that Batchelor owes a large debt to existentialist philosophers and theologians. He mentions Husserl, Heidegger and L?vinas as philosophers in which he got interested at a certain point, and he explicitly names Martin Buber, Gabriel Marcel, John Macquarrie and esp. Paul Tillich as thinkers that influenced him. He also states that he has a geater affinity with the theologian Don Cupitt than with any living Buddhist thinker. Cupitt is also influenced by existentialist thought. Batchelor also mentions the maverick bhikkhu Nyanavira, who was interested in Kierkegaard, Husserl, Heidegger and Sartre, and who experimented with existentialist interpretations of buddhist thought in the fifties. Batchelor shares Nyanavira's view that : "[.] the existentialist philosophers can provide a helpful bridge, especially to a modern reader puzzled by the jargon of Buddhism to understanding the relevance of Gotama's discourses in the Pali Canon to their own lives."(pp.144-5). Batchelor's first attempt to formulate his own thought was an essay called 'The Existential Foundations of Buddhism', the subtitle of his first book 'Alone with Others' was 'An Existential Approach to Buddhism'. One could go on, but I'll rest my case. I'm beginning to wonder, has anyone actually read the whole book ? Herman _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Thu May 20 14:38:12 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 14:38:12 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) In-Reply-To: <5d7c.102f4182.3926dab9@aol.com> References: <5d7c.102f4182.3926dab9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5F50F79548954D69BD1AE7F8E95F9F8F@OPTIPLEX> Thanks for bringing this up. JK ======= Interesting that in Zarathustra.Nietzche lifts a parable from Samyuttanikaya 268-169: "Bhikkhus, once there was an acrobat who set up his bamboo pole and called to his student, saying, "Come here and climb the pole and stand on my shoulders," and the pupil did as he was told. Then the bamboo acrobat said to his pupil, "Now, you take good care of me and I'll take good care of you. By watching over and protecting each other like this, we will show off our skills, get a good fee, and safely descend from the bamboo pole." At these words, the pupil said to his teacher, "Teacher, I don't think I can do that. You look after yourself and I will look after myself. If we both watch and protect ourselves then we will be able to show our art, get a good fee, and safely descend the bamboo pole." The Blessed One said, "That was the correct thing to do in that case: Just as that pupil spoke to his master, when thinking, 'I will protect myself,' you must be mindful, and when thinking, 'I will protect others,' you must also be mindful. Bhikkhus, protecting yourself, you protect others; protecting others, you protect yourself. And how is it that while protecting yourself you protect others? By earnest practice, development, training, and making the most of it. In this way, when you protect yourself, you protect others. And how do you protect others by protecting yourself? By proper resolve {chanda), by non-violence, by possessing a heart of loving-kindness and compassion. In this way, protecting others, you protect yourself. Bhikkhus, when thinking, 'I will protect myself,' you must be mindful. When thinking, 'I will protect others,' you must also be mindful. In this way, protecting yourself can be called protecting others, and protecting others can be called protecting yourself." Jack > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From zelders.yh at wxs.nl Thu May 20 18:58:40 2010 From: zelders.yh at wxs.nl (Zelders.YH) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 02:58:40 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100521025437.02518838@wxs.nl> Erik wrote : > > I'm beginning to wonder, has anyone actually read the whole book ? > >A few more of your posts and we will not have to, thank you, Herman. >But not to worry, one of these days... I'm feeling like Sisyphus ; you may consider me happy. Herman From joy.vriens at gmail.com Thu May 20 23:20:21 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 07:20:21 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20100519182222.024f82f0@wxs.nl> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100519182222.024f82f0@wxs.nl> Message-ID: Herman wrote: > > Alas, you seem to have all sorts of gloomy associations when you hear > 'existentialism' mentioned. Well, we could also, without changing > the content, call Batchelor's 'buddhist existentialism' an > 'eudaimonistic' theory, and make everybody happy. > > It's actually a combination of factors, drawing a general line, and within a given context, that evokes the gloomy associations. To keep it short, Buddhism without Beliefs, the exclusion of anything transcendental and existentialism. Following the general trend, Buddhism is being rationalised and the rationalisation is made possible thanks to a long Western tradition still marked by viewing Buddhism as a sort of cult of nothingness (Roger-Pol Droit). It seems that anything that plunges its roots in imagination, in ideals and myths needs to be weeded out. The problem IMO is that by doing this we are sawing the branch of motivating power that we are sitting on. Happiness and motivation are linked. Imagination, ideals and myths are not the worse thing that can happen to us. The irony is that "not running away from suffering" is just another imagination. It's a self-fulfilling injunction that appeals to the imagination just like any other injunction. One will always see what one is looking for. It's a myth to believe that merely by removing every illusion, "not running away from suffering" (perhaps in the heroic interventionist tradition of the West even searching for suffering) and by sticking to what is, one will find happiness. I am caricaturing on purpose here. > Speaking for myself, I've always thought that the impossible task of > the bodhisattva to save alle sentient beings is perfectly portrayed > in Camus' 'Myth of Sisyphus'. The impossible task of the bodhisattva is perfectly portrayed in itself. Disinterested action is perfectly portrayed in itself. I don't think it is perfectly portrayed in 'Myth of Sisyphus'. Judging the West by the East and the East by the West doesn't always guarantee for the best portraits. One doesn't get the same results when the goal itself is considered more important than the path and the path is judged by the realisation of the goal as it was stated. Utilitarianism, pragmatism and rationalisation are destructive robots. Once set in motion, they are hard to stop and where will they stop? > The famous last sentence of that book > reads : "The struggle itself is enough to fill a man's heart. One > must imagine Sisyphus happy" , (let's all thank Wikipedia for the > english translation). > > The word struggle combined with happiness shows the bias of a heroic ideal. Some translations of Bodhisattva show the same bias. It's a Western point of view IMO. > As for Batchelor, his idea is that one should not run away from > suffering, but one should welcome it, investigate it and discover it > as the First Noble Truth. Realizing the other three Noble Truths will > necessarily follow, the four Truths form a causal chain, remember > Necessarily and causal chain? Another robot? The image of Chaplin's Modern Times pops up. > ? "Amor fati" is therefore what is needed, (oops, more Nietzsche). > Ah, now you are talking. Amor... Where does Amor come from? Joy From joy.vriens at gmail.com Thu May 20 23:52:53 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 07:52:53 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] On positive Nirvana here and now (LVP) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Richard, I know La Vallee Poussin's views on nirvana very well. But how are > they relevant to the discussion of Nietzsche? Or was LVP brought up in > that context? I see LVP's views as having no bearing at all on > Nietzsche or, for that matter, the Unconditioned. But that's fine. If > you see a connection and find the connection useful in some way, I'm > content. > > It has been written in this discussion that Schopenhauer and Nietzsche had a wrong understanding of Buddhism, based on the works of the Indianists of their days. I mentioned Roger-Pol Droit's The Cult of Nothingness in my answer to Herman. This has been the Western bias ever since the first books on Buddhism had been published. Things had got better but didn't seem that much different at LVP's time, who had to struggle against the view that early Buddhism had a negative interpretation of Nirvana, AKA the deathless or the Unconditioned. It has also been written on this list that SB seems (I haven't read his last book that's under discussion) to have done away with "the notion of the 'Unconditioned' as a possible escape from conditioned existence". I am surprised you don't see the connection? Based on what I have read here, it seems to me that the cult of nothingness somehow continues, because there is still a cult (Buddhism) but with not much left except (pleasant) existentialism. French universities are full of it (actually Heidegger rather than existentialism). Again, I haven't read SB's last book and now I will have to... :-) Joy From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri May 21 01:21:11 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 03:21:11 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Nietzsche was a bachelor (was: Batchelor) References: , <210212B1-DF8A-4740-8CF2-4B423CD7A81D@unm.edu>, <007c01caf78b$6b9c4a40$2101a8c0@Dan><792EA57B-F656-44F7-9BC1-4FD2DEE84A89@unm.edu><002101caf7f8$d17c8830$2101a8c0@Dan><37442B42-2CA8-437E-9B12-38C0429E8E8D@unm.edu><007101caf830$66b77c20$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <00a001caf8b6$3112c350$2101a8c0@Dan> > You clearly need a vacation, Dan. You twist everything I say and then > find what you imagine I say tedious. It must be tiresome to find so > many things tedious. > > Richard Hayes Ha, ha! That's very funny! As for vacations, we could all use many more... Dan From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri May 21 01:59:31 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 09:59:31 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <55195EAFCDF440A9BFAD733D27C57E23@OPTIPLEX> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100520164711.024f9a68@wxs.nl> <55195EAFCDF440A9BFAD733D27C57E23@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <4BF63D63.7000107@xs4all.nl> Op 20-05-10 22:32, JKirkpatrick schreef: > > HZ: > Joanna wrote : > >> I ignore anything anyone says about existentialism. period. >> > HZ: > " Martin Buber......and esp. Paul Tillich...thinkers that > influenced him." > > JK: > Who says these scholars were existentialists? > Influence is not the same as membership in the cult. > Also, I don't see Husserl and Levinas as existentialists. They > were prominent European theologians and or philosophers, not > members of the cult led by Sartre. > Existentialism is a name for Sartre's philosophy, given by a Parisian journalist. It is not a cult. If you care to read Sartre, you'll see that he has a many meaningful things to say to us. As a philosopher he was an exception in that he wrote exceptionally well, so many of his readers took on some of his ideas. Often philosophy of existence is incorrectly called 'existentialism'. Husserl can not be included in this movement, though he came very close at the end, but Levinas and the early Heidegger can. Paul Tillich used to be a very devoted Heidegger fan. Combining existence philosophy and Buddhism is promising because the Noble Truths are existential (if they are not, they would hardly change our life). It would however mean a new kind of Buddhism, because the Asiatic Buddhism is characterized by its own traditional more or less theological discourse. erik From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri May 21 03:41:49 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 11:41:49 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100519182222.024f82f0@wxs.nl> Message-ID: <4BF6555D.9040204@xs4all.nl> Op 21-05-10 07:20, Joy Vriens schreef: > > It's actually a combination of factors, drawing a general line, and within a > given context, that evokes the gloomy associations. To keep it short, > Buddhism without Beliefs, the exclusion of anything transcendental and > existentialism. Following the general trend, Buddhism is being rationalised > and the rationalisation is made possible thanks to a long Western tradition > still marked by viewing Buddhism as a sort of cult of nothingness (Roger-Pol > Droit). It seems that anything that plunges its roots in imagination, in > ideals and myths needs to be weeded out. The problem IMO is that by doing > this we are sawing the branch of motivating power that we are sitting on. > Happiness and motivation are linked. Imagination, ideals and myths are not > the worse thing that can happen to us. > Philosophy of existence is very much opposed to rationalisation and Schopenhauer's understanding of nirv??a was much closer to the Buddhist one than many of his contemperary philologists. Much of traditional religion has become a metaphysical soap, all meaning has been replaced by consumer emotions. So I think SB is right in his attempt to refreshen Buddhism and get away from the metaphysical corruption that has got into Buddhist ritualism. How would you inspire and build up motivation? Staring at a wall for 2 hours because the Sensei is such an interesting man? Indulging your selfimage with Chenrezig? Doing vipassana untill your forget how to tell a joke? Why not begin at the bottom: the facts of life, your fears, your loves your body and nature. It may give a person a better motivation than all this incense and nonsense. > The irony is that "not running away from suffering" is just another > imagination. It's a self-fulfilling injunction that appeals to the > imagination just like any other injunction. One will always see what one is > looking for. It's a myth to believe that merely by removing every illusion, > "not running away from suffering" (perhaps in the heroic interventionist > tradition of the West even searching for suffering) and by sticking to what > is, one will find happiness. I am caricaturing on purpose here. > If you can chose between doing a retreat or lying on the beach, there's not much suffering going on. But what if you hear that you have terminal disease, would it be better to spend your time meditating on Sukh?vat?, musing about your phantastic rebirth, or would it be better to try to understand what's happening to you? > > The impossible task of the bodhisattva is perfectly portrayed in itself. > Disinterested action is perfectly portrayed in itself. I don't think it is > perfectly portrayed in 'Myth of Sisyphus'. Judging the West by the East and > the East by the West doesn't always guarantee for the best portraits. One > doesn't get the same results when the goal itself is considered more > important than the path and the path is judged by the realisation of the > goal as it was stated. Utilitarianism, pragmatism and rationalisation are > destructive robots. Once set in motion, they are hard to stop and where will > they stop? > If you associate utilism and pragmatism (both are very different btw) with Camus, you have some reading to catch up with. And the reason we 're discussing this is that East and West have a lot in common, we are all human to begin with. > > >> The famous last sentence of that book >> reads : "The struggle itself is enough to fill a man's heart. One >> must imagine Sisyphus happy" , (let's all thank Wikipedia for the >> english translation). >> >> >> > The word struggle combined with happiness shows the bias of a heroic ideal. > Some translations of Bodhisattva show the same bias. It's a Western point of > view IMO. > Read your Jatakas. > > >> As for Batchelor, his idea is that one should not run away from >> suffering, but one should welcome it, investigate it and discover it >> as the First Noble Truth. Realizing the other three Noble Truths will >> necessarily follow, the four Truths form a causal chain, remember >> >> > Necessarily and causal chain? Another robot? The image of Chaplin's Modern > Times pops up. > No it's what you do when your meditation goes well. But there's no law (except in Noth Korea and in the Teaparty Movement) to live a reflective life. > > >> ? "Amor fati" is therefore what is needed, (oops, more Nietzsche). >> >> > Ah, now you are talking. Amor... Where does Amor come from? > > The Latin language, why? Amicalement erik From joy.vriens at gmail.com Fri May 21 06:02:17 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 14:02:17 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <4BF6555D.9040204@xs4all.nl> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100519182222.024f82f0@wxs.nl> <4BF6555D.9040204@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Cher ami, So I think SB is right in his attempt to refreshen > Buddhism and get away from the metaphysical corruption that has got into > Buddhist ritualism. How would you inspire and build up motivation? > Metaphysics and ritualism are two different things for me. Metaphysics is thinking the Totality (Marcel Conche). If any practice could be linked to it, it would be rather mystic than ritualist. I also think in terms of religion and spirituality, the former being more centred on ritualism and the latter more on mysticism. I agree with you that metaphysics can be easily corrupted, unless you mean it is corruption itself. That's fine too since everything on this earth grows from corruption (humus). > Staring at a wall for 2 hours because the Sensei is such an interesting > man? Indulging your selfimage with Chenrezig? Doing vipassana untill > your forget how to tell a joke? A wee bit reductionist, but I see what you mean. You also say religion has become a metaphysical soap, I see it suffering from "Bovarysme" (Flaubert's Mme Bovary), an excessive urge to imitation, with public display, and belief in methods. > Why not begin at the bottom: the facts > of life, your fears, your loves your body and nature. It may give a > person a better motivation than all this incense and nonsense. > I don't know in what sort of humus the best motivations grow. What has motivated the greatest human beings? If you can chose between doing a retreat or lying on the beach, there's > not much suffering going on. But what if you hear that you have terminal > disease, would it be better to spend your time meditating on Sukh?vat?, > musing about your phantastic rebirth, or would it be better to try to > understand what's happening to you? > What is there to understand if it's a fact of life? What is better for whom and for what? What are we measuring against? > If you associate utilism and pragmatism (both are very different btw) > with Camus, you have some reading to catch up with. And the reason we > 're discussing this is that East and West have a lot in common, we are > all human to begin with. > You just threw overboard the whole of religion, theology and metaphysics and now I have to be careful with details regarding utilitarianism and pragmatism? :-) > > The word struggle combined with happiness shows the bias of a heroic > ideal. > > Some translations of Bodhisattva show the same bias. It's a Western point > of > > view IMO. > > > Read your Jatakas. > The characters of the Jataka generally are heroes despite themselves, they are self-effacing. Achilles is a different case. Western heroes tend to act for individual fame and distinction and thrive on competition. Even an outspoken Indian hero like Arjuna is reluctant to fight. Apparently (I heard it mentioned in a soap), death is eight times more frequent amongst American firemen than anywhere else in the world, because of their desire to be heroic. > >> As for Batchelor, his idea is that one should not run away from > >> suffering, but one should welcome it, investigate it and discover it > >> as the First Noble Truth. Realizing the other three Noble Truths will > >> necessarily follow, the four Truths form a causal chain, remember > >> > >> > > Necessarily and causal chain? Another robot? The image of Chaplin's > Modern > > Times pops up. > > No it's what you do when your meditation goes well. But there's no law > (except in Noth Korea and in the Teaparty Movement) to live a reflective > life. > That is a self-fulfilling prophecy: if your meditation goes well and you realise the third Noble Truth, it's due to the causal chain of the method and you carried out the method properly. If you don't end up there, you must have made a mistake somewhere. Is the reflective life the only possibility? I am thinking of Reflexivity versus spontaneity. Joy From ahbadiner at igc.apc.org Fri May 21 02:58:04 2010 From: ahbadiner at igc.apc.org (ahbadiner at igc.apc.org) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 01:58:04 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <4BF63D63.7000107@xs4all.nl> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100520164711.024f9a68@wxs.nl> <55195EAFCDF440A9BFAD733D27C57E23@OPTIPLEX> <4BF63D63.7000107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20100521015804.sslrce616o0wskso@webmail.igc.apc.org> Here is "Flight" by Stephen Batchelor: --Allan Badiner From Jackhat1 at aol.com Fri May 21 06:35:56 2010 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 08:35:56 EDT Subject: [Buddha-l] On positive Nirvana here and now (LVP) Message-ID: <735f4.499595be.3927d82c@aol.com> In a message dated 5/21/2010 12:53:16 A.M. Central Daylight Time, joy.vriens at gmail.com writes: Things had got better but didn't seem that much different at LVP's time, who had to struggle against the view that early Buddhism had a negative interpretation of Nirvana, AKA the deathless or the Unconditioned. == The most negative view of nirvana/the unconditioned that I have heard is by the contemporary Professor Malcolm Eckel of Boston University. Our library has a CD copy of his lectures on Buddhism put out by The Teaching Company. I wouldn't think anyone interested in Buddhism as a practice would continue on after hearing this. On the other hand, an academic might think it was great. jack From joy.vriens at gmail.com Fri May 21 08:36:05 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 16:36:05 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <20100521015804.sslrce616o0wskso@webmail.igc.apc.org> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100520164711.024f9a68@wxs.nl> <55195EAFCDF440A9BFAD733D27C57E23@OPTIPLEX> <4BF63D63.7000107@xs4all.nl> <20100521015804.sslrce616o0wskso@webmail.igc.apc.org> Message-ID: Hi Allan On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 10:58 AM, wrote: > Here is "Flight" by Stephen Batchelor: > > > Thank you, this is great. I perused it quickly and found two objections, a small one and a major one. "Throughout the centuries, in many different countries and cultures, Buddhism has adopted numerous forms. Yet underlying them all is this one truth of enlightenment that the Buddha grasped over two thousand years ago." I don't believe in this version of a very authentic Buddhism, starting off as "this one truth of enlightenment" to which more and more bagage was gradually added throughout the centuries, in many different countries and cultures. This doesn't take away anything from the justified desire or need to establish a core Buddhism or to adapt it to modern times. I don't question the validity of the ideas of existential anxiety and flight, but I do object to the anachronistic translation of "bhaya" (T. 'jigs pa) as existential anxiety. SB gives the following definitions: "As has been pointed out by several existentialist philosophers, fear and anxiety are quite distinct phenomena. Fear always has a particular entity in the world as its object." "Anxiety, on the other hand, never has a particular entity in the world as its object. In this sense it is said to be ?objectless.? " Anxiety is also defined as follows (Wiki) : "Anxiety is a psychological and physiological state characterized by cognitive, somatic, emotional, and behavioral components. These components combine to create an unpleasant feeling that is typically associated with uneasiness, apprehension, fear, or worry." We come close to an exalted or even possibly unjustified fear. SB: "Only when these questions are answered will a clear picture of taking refuge in the Triple Gem emerge. In the writings of the thirteenth century Tibetan Master Tsong Khapa one of the causes for taking refuge is recognised as ?jigs.pa., in Sanskrit bhaya, a term which is usually translated as ?fear.? However, in traditional Buddhist terminology no explicit distinction is made between fear and anxiety. Hence we should reconsider in this case whether ?jigs.pa., denotes a normal state of fear or whether it refers to the more existential condition of anxiety. Tsong Khapa maintains that the object of `jigs.pa. is not some particular entity within the world but the cycle of birth and death itself. This being so, we can safely conclude that here ?jigs.pa should be rendered as ?anxiety? rather than ?fear.? For the cycle of birth and death (sa?s?ra) does not imply a particular entity in the world, but a certain pattern or mode of existence. Thus the anxiety that motivates us to take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha is none other than the anxiety to which we habitually respond by fleeing into a world of particulars." "Bhaya" and "'jigs pa" also mean danger and I have encountered occurrences where it can't be translated as fear and needs to be translated as danger. Danger and fear are linked of course. One can fear water, but one does so rightly because water is dangerous. E.g. the goddess Tara protects against eight dangers : lions, elephants, fire, snakes, thieves, fetters (legal problems), water and demons. She became the goddess of navigators. For Tsongkhapa the cycle of birth and death is a danger which one rightly fears and should seek protection against by various means. For Tsongkhapa praying Tara would be one possibility Therefore I find the move from danger to fear and from there to anxiety and existential anxiety a bit bold regarding the evidence. For the rest, I agree with his diagnosis and the solutions. "Existential flight precipitates us into absorption with the particular entities of the world." Joy From jkirk at spro.net Fri May 21 10:21:21 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 10:21:21 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <4BF63D63.7000107@xs4all.nl> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100520164711.024f9a68@wxs.nl><55195EAFCDF440A9BFAD733D27C57E23@OPTIPLEX> <4BF63D63.7000107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <329D41DF983B4B40AD0CE9320903A540@OPTIPLEX> > Existentialism is a name for Sartre's philosophy, given by a Parisian journalist. It is not a cult. If you care to read Sartre, you'll see that he has a many meaningful things to say to us. As a philosopher he was an exception in that he wrote exceptionally well, so many of his readers took on some of his ideas. Often philosophy of existence is incorrectly called 'existentialism'. Husserl can not be included in this movement, though he came very close at the end, but Levinas and the early Heidegger can. Paul Tillich used to be a very devoted Heidegger fan. Combining existence philosophy and Buddhism is promising because the Noble Truths are existential (if they are not, they would hardly change our life). It would however mean a new kind of Buddhism, because the Asiatic Buddhism is characterized by its own traditional more or less theological discourse. erik Calling existentialism a 'cult' was from my days in the 50s and 60s (in the US) when the enthusiastic followers of Sartre acted as if it was a cult. It certainly was fashionable, affecting dress and public postures. Maybe it's fair to say that Sartre himself was a cult--together with his wife. I read some of his work, in translation, of course, and admit that for a few years was under the influence. Regards, Joanna From zelders.yh at wxs.nl Fri May 21 15:02:37 2010 From: zelders.yh at wxs.nl (Zelders.YH) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 23:02:37 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100521223721.0227a658@wxs.nl> Joy, is this enlightening ? concerning 'jigs.pa.', "fear" : That concept may have a forerunner in the (sanskrit equivalent of the) pali notion of 'samvega' ('sa^mvega' in Velthuis code). That word denotes the emotion that is the effect of the full realization of suffering - old age, sickness and death and a host of minor troubles - and is crucial for wanting to turn away from samsara. Venerable dutch pali-translator Rob Janssen in a conversation some years ago playfully translated that term in french as 'naus?e', no kidding. Herman From zelders.yh at wxs.nl Fri May 21 17:46:13 2010 From: zelders.yh at wxs.nl (Zelders.YH) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 01:46:13 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100522001538.02531f90@wxs.nl> Joy wrote : >Again, I haven't read SB's last book and now I will have to... :-) You can also listen to some audio files on the Dharma Seed site [http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/169/]. Here is a nice one : it's a reading by Batchelor from Nov. last year during a study and meditation retreat at Spirit Rock, and it will take 59:24 h. of your precious life. It's titled : 'Experiencing the Unconditioned', our favourite topic : http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/wimpy/wimpy_popup.html?theFile=http://dharmaseed.org/talks/wimpy/7305.xml Watching the man delivering a lecture may even be more interesting. http://fora.tv/2010/03/19/Stephen_Batchelor_Confession_of_a_Buddhist_Atheist is a very nice video from the book tour from March this year, (01:03:37 h.). EnJoy ! Herman From lemmett at talk21.com Fri May 21 18:13:33 2010 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 17:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Samadhi and faith Message-ID: <748896.27053.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi I have a couple of questions if that's fine. What does the suffix "samadhi" signify in terms like "the Surangama samadhi", specifically 'the three samadhis'? I cannot find anything at all substantial in English to read about this last concept.?What is faith according to Wonhyo, especially with respect to his six contemplations in his commentary on the Vajrasamadhi-sutra?Why is his first contemplation signlessness if that samadhi is often thought to occur only at complete extinction? Best wishes. From pat at fileslip.net Fri May 21 17:58:51 2010 From: pat at fileslip.net (Patrick Hall) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 16:58:51 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20100522001538.02531f90@wxs.nl> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100522001538.02531f90@wxs.nl> Message-ID: Hello all, I'm a long-time lurker and first-time poster here. > Watching the man delivering a lecture may even be more > interesting. > http://fora.tv/2010/03/19/Stephen_Batchelor_Confession_of_a_Buddhist_Atheist > is a very nice video from the book tour from March this year, ?(01:03:37 h.). Just thought I'd mention that I was at this lecture, it was very enjoyable and interesting. "Chapter 12" of the video directly addresses Batchelor's take on the relationship of Buddhism and Atheism, a topic which came up in discussion here recently. With metta, Pat From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri May 21 20:08:23 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 22:08:23 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Samadhi and faith References: <748896.27053.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001e01caf953$a8cfe880$2101a8c0@Dan> Samadhi is not a suffix. It's a word. It means meditation, concentration, focused mind. Surangama is an unusual word, so there are several theories about what it is supposed to mean. One meaning is something like "hero", "courageous one." Surangama samadhi would be the type of contemplation engaged in by someone who is a surangama. As for Wonhyo's commentary on the Vajrasamadhi, you should consult the recent translation by Robert Buswell. That's his area of expertise. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 8:13 PM Subject: [Buddha-l] Samadhi and faith Hi I have a couple of questions if that's fine. What does the suffix "samadhi" signify in terms like "the Surangama samadhi", specifically 'the three samadhis'? I cannot find anything at all substantial in English to read about this last concept. What is faith according to Wonhyo, especially with respect to his six contemplations in his commentary on the Vajrasamadhi-sutra?Why is his first contemplation signlessness if that samadhi is often thought to occur only at complete extinction? Best wishes. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From roger60 at golden-wheel.net Fri May 21 22:21:31 2010 From: roger60 at golden-wheel.net (Roger60) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 14:21:31 +1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20100521223721.0227a658@wxs.nl> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100521223721.0227a658@wxs.nl> Message-ID: <000c01caf966$44fe7e30$cefb7a90$@net> Hi Herman, As in Sartre's La Naus?e ? (an excellent book not for people already suffering from depression / anxiety) http://www.amazon.fr/Naus%C3%A9e-Jean-Paul-Sartre/dp/207036805X/ref=sr_1_1?i e=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274501965&sr=8-1 -:)) Roger -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Zelders.YH Sent: samedi 22 mai 2010 07:03 To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Batchelor Joy, is this enlightening ? concerning 'jigs.pa.', "fear" : That concept may have a forerunner in the (sanskrit equivalent of the) pali notion of 'samvega' ('sa^mvega' in Velthuis code). That word denotes the emotion that is the effect of the full realization of suffering - old age, sickness and death and a host of minor troubles - and is crucial for wanting to turn away from samsara. Venerable dutch pali-translator Rob Janssen in a conversation some years ago playfully translated that term in french as 'naus?e', no kidding. Herman From joy.vriens at gmail.com Fri May 21 23:51:48 2010 From: joy.vriens at gmail.com (Joy Vriens) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 07:51:48 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20100521223721.0227a658@wxs.nl> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100521223721.0227a658@wxs.nl> Message-ID: Hi Herman, Thank you for all the links. concerning 'jigs.pa.', "fear" : > > That concept may have a forerunner in the > (sanskrit equivalent of the) pali notion of > 'samvega' ('sa^mvega' in Velthuis code). > That word denotes the emotion that is the effect > of the full realization of suffering - old age, > sickness and death and a host of minor troubles - > and is crucial for wanting to turn away from samsara. > Venerable dutch pali-translator Rob Janssen in a > conversation some years ago playfully translated > that term in french as 'naus?e', no kidding. > Yes, that seems like a good translation, at least a thought provoking one. In the eighteenth century French authors wrote quite a bit about "le sentiment d'exister" (awareness of existing) in a positive way. One of the experiences that Michel Hulin qualifies as "mystique sauvage" (natural mystics, in the wild so to say). Oceanic feeling. That's the positive outlook on "the feeling of existence". The negative outlook is excellently described by Sartre in "La naus?e" when suddenly for Roquentin there is an awareness that he was like under a spell. "Et tout d'un coup, d'un seul coup, le voile se d?chire, j'ai compris, j'ai vu." "Et puis j'ai eu cette r?v?lation." Everything vanished, their individuality disappeared. Roquentin experienced le sentiment d'exister negatively, as a loss of identity and a loss of meaning as nothingness. "Moi, tout ? l'heure, j'ai fait l'exp?rience de l'absolu : l'absolu ou l'absurde". A nothingness invading everything and therefore nauseating. In spite of this, Roquentin still qualifies his experience as a "atroce jouissance" (atrocious enjoyment). So it would seem that there is a difference between existential anxiety, where one doesn't know what is going on but senses that something is wrong, and disgust (samvega), where one sees the terrifying relativity of one's reality. Joy From lemmett at talk21.com Sat May 22 05:34:11 2010 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 11:34:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Samadhi and faith In-Reply-To: <001e01caf953$a8cfe880$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <200521.20934.qm@web86605.mail.ird.yahoo.com> What is the term's relationship to the jhanas, as it is used in zen?I've been through that translation and he does mention faith but not clearly enough for me. Samadhi is not a suffix. It's a word. It means meditation, concentration, focused mind. Surangama is an unusual word, so there are several theories about what it is supposed to mean. One meaning is something like "hero", "courageous one." Surangama samadhi would be the type of contemplation engaged in by someone who is a surangama. As for Wonhyo's commentary on the Vajrasamadhi, you should consult the recent translation by Robert Buswell. That's his area of expertise. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 8:13 PM Subject: [Buddha-l] Samadhi and faith Hi I have a couple of questions if that's fine. What does the suffix "samadhi" signify in terms like "the Surangama samadhi", specifically 'the three samadhis'? I cannot find anything at all substantial in English to read about this last concept. What is faith according to Wonhyo, especially with respect to his six contemplations in his commentary on the Vajrasamadhi-sutra?Why is his first contemplation signlessness if that samadhi is often thought to occur only at complete extinction? Best wishes. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From lemmett at talk21.com Sat May 22 09:15:32 2010 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 15:15:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20100522001538.02531f90@wxs.nl> Message-ID: <751336.31955.qm@web86606.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hello. Is there a middle ground between rebirth and thinking that karma is purely psychological? I can't think of one.?Sorry if I've misrepresented Batchelor here.? Slight tangent but would you say that Epicurus' advice (that death is not to be feared because we're not there) is according to Buddhism also a source of stress and so even on its own terms is impractical. In what other ways might Epicurus be wrong? E.g., I'd imagine that for him looking forward to death is equally illogical but looking forward to nirvana is not, right? Why and can you help me make sense of that? I don't want to gloss 'nirvana' and 'death', which brings me back to Batchelor: is karma at best a cure for nihilism? Thanks for any help. --- On Sat, 22/5/10, Zelders.YH wrote: From: Zelders.YH Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Batchelor To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Date: Saturday, 22 May, 2010, 0:46 Joy wrote : >Again, I haven't read SB's last book and now I will have to... :-) You can also listen to some audio files on the Dharma Seed site [http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/169/]. Here is a nice one : it's a reading by Batchelor from Nov. last year during a study and meditation retreat at Spirit Rock, and it will take 59:24 h. of your precious life. It's titled : 'Experiencing the Unconditioned', our favourite topic : http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/wimpy/wimpy_popup.html?theFile=http://dharmaseed.org/talks/wimpy/7305.xml Watching the man delivering a lecture may even be more interesting. http://fora.tv/2010/03/19/Stephen_Batchelor_Confession_of_a_Buddhist_Atheist is a very nice video from the book tour from March this year,? (01:03:37 h.). EnJoy ! Herman _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sat May 22 11:08:12 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 11:08:12 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <751336.31955.qm@web86606.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100522001538.02531f90@wxs.nl> <751336.31955.qm@web86606.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Perhaps it would help if you expanded your array of Buddhist thinkers as a way to move out of the either/or dilemma. For a start, you might find the views of Ven. Buddhadasa helpful: see _Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree_, Wisdom Pubs, 1994. He arrived at what I consider to be progressive (not rooted in the past/tradition as he received it) views on rebirth & karma. I'm surprised that Buddhadasa was not even mentioned in Batchelor's latest book, as his views would seem to be right down Batchelor's alley. Having recently read Epicurus, I don't recall Epicurus working with a dukkha concept similar to what's found in Buddhism-- he was more relaxed than that. I don't recall him "looking forward to death" as you say, but may be misremembering. As I recall, his emphasis was ever on the wise man being content with necessities but otherwise with little. Again as I recall, Epicurus thought that being preoccupied with and afraid of death was pointless. (Sort of like the Buddha considering that being preoccupied with the concern of 'was there a creator deity or not' was pointless.) Epicurus wrote against grasping and craving, yes, but wasn't focused on such concepts as bodhi or nirvana which it seems had not even occurred to him. Best, Joanna ________________________________________________ On Behalf Of lemmett at talk21.com Hello. Is there a middle ground between rebirth and thinking that karma is purely psychological? I can't think of one.?Sorry if I've misrepresented Batchelor here. Slight tangent but would you say that Epicurus' advice (that death is not to be feared because we're not there) is according to Buddhism also a source of stress and so even on its own terms is impractical. In what other ways might Epicurus be wrong? E.g., I'd imagine that for him looking forward to death is equally illogical but looking forward to nirvana is not, right? Why and can you help me make sense of that? I don't want to gloss 'nirvana' and 'death', which brings me back to Batchelor: is karma at best a cure for nihilism? Thanks for any help. From jehms at xs4all.nl Sat May 22 14:17:41 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 22:17:41 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor In-Reply-To: <751336.31955.qm@web86606.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <751336.31955.qm@web86606.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BF83BE5.4020502@xs4all.nl> Op 22-05-10 17:15, lemmett at talk21.com schreef: > Hello. > Is there a middle ground between rebirth and thinking that karma is purely psychological? I can't think of one. Sorry if I've misrepresented Batchelor here. > Slight tangent but would you say that Epicurus' advice (that death is not to be feared because we're not there) is according to Buddhism also a source of stress and so even on its own terms is impractical. In what other ways might Epicurus be wrong? E.g., I'd imagine that for him looking forward to death is equally illogical but looking forward to nirvana is not, right? Why and can you help me make sense of that? > I don't want to gloss 'nirvana' and 'death', which brings me back to Batchelor: is karma at best a cure for nihilism? > Thanks for any help. > > > Hi, Epicure had discovered the happiness of sheer existence, the kind of happiness that comes from being carefree and totally relaxed. You get this by forgetting unnecessary needs and free yourself from unnecessary fears, cultivating a reflective life and spend as much time as you can with friends. Death is nothing to worry about, nor to welcome. It's just irrelevant as anything that fate brings you. Lots of people found happiness through practice of his lifestyle. Is it better than Buddhism? Who knows? It's difficult to compare both. erik From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun May 23 02:55:01 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 10:55:01 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Morals in 6 months old kids Message-ID: <4BF8ED65.2080507@xs4all.nl> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/7699927/Six-month-old-babies-can-tell-right-from-wrong.html "With the help of well-designed experiments, you can see glimmers of moral thought, moral judgment and moral feeling even in the first year of life. Some sense of good and evil seems to be bred in the bone." Why don't we apply these experiments on politicians? Do we fear the results? erik From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun May 23 03:03:29 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 11:03:29 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Samskrita tantra Message-ID: <4BF8EF61.8030100@xs4all.nl> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/City/Hubli/Cloth-merchant-uses-Sanskrit-as-business-lingo/articleshow/5904310.cms Looking for a Madrassa coloured dvandva? The price is Mah?v?kyam. erik From cdorzech at uncg.edu Sun May 23 07:45:52 2010 From: cdorzech at uncg.edu (Charles D. Orzech CDORZECH) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 09:45:52 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conference call for papers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Can you please post this call for papers. I attach a txt file (4K) and paste in copy below. Many thanks, Charlie Charles D. Orzech Professor Department of Religious Studies The University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC  27402-6170 336 334-4927 SOCIETY FOR TANTRIC STUDIES CALL FOR PAPERS The Society for Tantric Studies invites papers for its next conference, to be held in Flagstaff, Arizona from Friday September 24 through Sunday September 26, 2010. The Society for Tantric Studies (STS), founded in 1985, is a forum of exchange for scholars engaged in the academic study of Tantra both in its traditional Asian contexts and more recently in diverse global manifestations. The conference provides an opportunity for scholars to collaborate across traditional boundaries of religious traditions (e.g. Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism), present-day nation-states and geography (e.g. India, Tibet, China, Japan), and academic disciplines (e.g. history of religions, anthropology, art history, linguistics, sociology). Above all, the STS is committed to critical and creative inquiry. It is not an advocacy forum for Tantric practice and neither endorses nor prohibits particular approaches to either the study or the practice of Tantra. Scholars with doctorates in related academic disciplines (such as Religion, Asian Studies, Sociology, Psychology, Anthropology, Art, History, Philosophy ,or Women?s Studies) researching and/or teaching in relevant areas of Tantric Studies are encouraged and invited to present, attend, and/or participate in the conference. Graduate students in any of these disciplines are also encouraged to present and attend the conference. Scholars and graduate students are welcome to attend without presenting. We invite fully formed panels and individual papers. Proposals should be no longer than 1,000 words. Abstracts should be no longer than 150 words. In addition, all participants should include a CV (maximum 2 pages) and a brief statement explaining what they hope to get from attending the conference. Digital versions (preferably in .pdf format) of proposals and abstracts, as well as CVs and statements should be emailed to Glen A. Hayes, Dept. of Religion, Bloomfield College at tantricstudies at gmail.com. PROPOSALS MUST BE RECEIVED NO LATER THAN June 15, 2010.. Acceptance of papers will be sent out by July 15, 2010. Some of the themes suggested by members of the Society include, but are not limited to, the following topics: Tantra and Power (royal, spiritual, magical) Tribal Elements in Tantra Women in Tantra (symbolically, literally, textually, ethnographically) Tantric Art and Tantric Texts Tantric Textual Theories of Practice and their Limits Tantra and Aesthetics Tantra, Physiology, and Landscape Texts and Translations Tantric Metaphors Tantric Typologies of Self Tantric Studies in 2010: The State of the Field Critical Reflections on Western Approaches toTantric Studies. LOCATION: The conference and accommodations will be at the lovely Little America Hotel, situated amidst a pine-forested mountain in Flagstaff, Arizona. Special conference rates begin at $99 for single or double. A block of rooms will be held for conference attendees until August 23, 2010. You may visit their website at: www.littleamerica.com/flagstaff/. A restaurant and coffee shop are located on the premises. Attendees should fly into Phoenix and either drive up to Flagstaff (approximately 2 hours) or take a connecting flight into Flagstaff airport. We recommend staying for an extra day or two to arrange for visits to the Grand Canyon (2 hours), Sedona (1 hour), and Meteor Crater (1 hour)---among the many local attractions. FEES: Attendees will pay a fee of $75 ($35 for graduate students) to cover conference and STS expenses. Registration fees should be mailed to Prof. Charles D. Orzech, Dept. of Religious Studies, 110 Foust bldg., University of North Carolina Greensboro, Greensboro, NC  27402-6170. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: STS Call.txt Url: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20100523/557ed1cb/attachment.txt From rhayes at unm.edu Sun May 23 14:15:55 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 14:15:55 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Morals in 6 months old kids In-Reply-To: <4BF8ED65.2080507@xs4all.nl> References: <4BF8ED65.2080507@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On May 23, 2010, at 2:55 AM, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > "With the help of well-designed experiments, you can see glimmers of > moral thought, moral judgment and moral feeling even in the first year > of life. Some sense of good and evil seems to be bred in the bone." > > Why don't we apply these experiments on politicians? Do we fear the results? The most tempting answer is that few politicians have yet reached the emotional age of one-year-olds. But another answer also suggests itself. A recent study by a developmental psychologist at McGill University has shown that children learn to tell lies at the age of about two years and six months. The claim is that learning to tell lies is a crucial developmental skill, since it shows that the child recognizes that there are other minds out there, and that other minds have beliefs and desires different from one's own, and that if one is going to get one's way then one had better find a way to cause others to have the same desires as oneself. The first strategy that suggests itself is to tell lies. Children who do not learn to tell lies at the age of 2.5 or so usually have cognitive disabilities of some kind. Later on, of course, children acquire other ways of achieving uniformity of desires in other minds. The adult method, of course, is to pay people lots of money. That method seems to work well on most politicians. In dealing with other minds who happen to live in other countries, threatening to send in the US Marines usually works pretty well as a method of persuasion. By the way, I have changed the settings of buddha-l slightly. From now on, all messages will be moderated. Contributors who make deposits into my PayPal account will see their messages approved. Priority will go to those who make the biggest deposits. moderately yours, Richard From jkirk at spro.net Sun May 23 20:27:30 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 20:27:30 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Morals in 6 months old kids In-Reply-To: References: <4BF8ED65.2080507@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4C525D098AC64161A05A78C70DCCDFC8@OPTIPLEX> -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 2:16 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Morals in 6 months old kids On May 23, 2010, at 2:55 AM, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > "With the help of well-designed experiments, you can see glimmers of > moral thought, moral judgment and moral feeling even in the first year > of life. Some sense of good and evil seems to be bred in the bone." > > Why don't we apply these experiments on politicians? Do we fear the results? The most tempting answer is that few politicians have yet reached the emotional age of one-year-olds. But another answer also suggests itself. A recent study by a developmental psychologist at McGill University has shown that children learn to tell lies at the age of about two years and six months. The claim is that learning to tell lies is a crucial developmental skill, since it shows that the child recognizes that there are other minds out there, and that other minds have beliefs and desires different from one's own, and that if one is going to get one's way then one had better find a way to cause others to have the same desires as oneself. The first strategy that suggests itself is to tell lies. Children who do not learn to tell lies at the age of 2.5 or so usually have cognitive disabilities of some kind. .................. Richard ------------------- "Children under age 6 often tell tales and have difficulty distinguishing between reality and fantasy. Telling tall tales is entirely different from lying. " I'm wondering how the McGill psychologist decided as between lies and fantasy. Toddlers (2-5) often have a rich fantasy life and don't always discriminate between their maginations and what we see as reality. Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Sun May 23 20:38:16 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 20:38:16 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Morals in 6 months old kids--huh? In-Reply-To: <4C525D098AC64161A05A78C70DCCDFC8@OPTIPLEX> References: <4BF8ED65.2080507@xs4all.nl> <4C525D098AC64161A05A78C70DCCDFC8@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <7DEDAD52E70C4086BE13E7FC91F7C808@OPTIPLEX> On May 23, 2010, at 2:55 AM, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > "With the help of well-designed experiments, you can see glimmers of > moral thought, moral judgment and moral feeling even in the first year > of life. Some sense of good and evil seems to be bred in the bone." > > Why don't we apply these experiments on politicians? Do we fear the results? __________________________________ Richard replied: The most tempting answer is that few politicians have yet reached the emotional age of one-year-olds. But another answer also suggests itself. A recent study by a developmental psychologist at McGill University has shown that children learn to tell lies at the age of about two years and six months. The claim is that learning to tell lies is a crucial developmental skill, since it shows that the child recognizes that there are other minds out there, and that other minds have beliefs and desires different from one's own, and that if one is going to get one's way then one had better find a way to cause others to have the same desires as oneself. The first strategy that suggests itself is to tell lies. Children who do not learn to tell lies at the age of 2.5 or so usually have cognitive disabilities of some kind. __________________________________ JK: "Children under age 6 often tell tales and have difficulty distinguishing between reality and fantasy. Telling tall tales is entirely different from lying. " I'm wondering how the McGill psychologist decided as between lies and fantasy. Toddlers (2-5) often have a rich fantasy life and don't always discriminate between their imaginations and what we see as reality. Joanna From rhayes at unm.edu Sun May 23 22:50:24 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 22:50:24 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Morals in 6 months old kids In-Reply-To: <7DEDAD52E70C4086BE13E7FC91F7C808@OPTIPLEX> References: <4BF8ED65.2080507@xs4all.nl> <4C525D098AC64161A05A78C70DCCDFC8@OPTIPLEX> <7DEDAD52E70C4086BE13E7FC91F7C808@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: On May 23, 2010, at 8:38 PM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > I'm wondering how the McGill psychologist decided as between lies > and fantasy. > Toddlers (2-5) often have a rich fantasy life and don't always > discriminate between their imaginations and what we see as > reality. The experiment is discussed in some detail on "As it happens" for May 18, 2010. You can listen to the podcast by going to the web page for that day's program: http://www.cbc.ca/radioshows/AS_IT_HAPPENS/20100518.shtml You might be able to find out even more by doing a search for the lead researcher, Victoria Talwar, who is an Associate Professor of Human Development at McGill University. In brief, the researcher placed a toy in a hidden place and told the child where the toy was hidden and said not to peek at the toy. The researcher then left the room for a minute and came back in. A camera recorded the child's behaviour. Almost all the children peeked. When asked whether they had looked, 70% lied. The study also included asking the children follow-up questions, such as "What do you think the hidden toy might be?" Slightly older children, around age 4, had learned to cover up their initial lie with another one, such as "How should I know? I didn't look." Younger children were not very good at covering up their initial lie. My favorite bungled cover up was "I think it might be a purple cat. I didn't peek, but I touched it, and it felt purple." What the study shows, I think, is that by age 4 a child is ready to run for public office. One thing the psychologist said that intrigued me was that even though children eventually learn that lying is not acceptable behaviour, it is almost unheard of for a human being to stop telling lies. What they learn to do is to justify their lying by calling it something like up?ya. The Buddhists knew that stratagem very well. Richard From jmp at peavler.org Mon May 24 08:02:29 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 08:02:29 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Morals in 6 months old kids In-Reply-To: References: <4BF8ED65.2080507@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3C1678F0-8BBF-4D9D-841D-5CEF60836FF2@peavler.org> On May 23, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Richard Hayes wrote: > On May 23, 2010, at 2:55 AM, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > >> "With the help of well-designed experiments, you can see glimmers of >> moral thought, moral judgment and moral feeling even in the first year >> of life. Some sense of good and evil seems to be bred in the bone." Only a couple of weeks ago I read an article about this very subject -- purporting to show hints of morals in children. I thought the experiment was anything but well-designed. I thought it was specious. Looked like typical social "science" experiment to me. I will try to find the article again and present the link here. > By the way, I have changed the settings of buddha-l slightly. From now on, all messages will be moderated. Contributors who make deposits into my PayPal account will see their messages approved. Priority will go to those who make the biggest deposits. > > moderately yours, What would it cost to keep my crap off of here? Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org From jmp at peavler.org Mon May 24 08:07:23 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 08:07:23 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Morals in 6 months old kids In-Reply-To: References: <4BF8ED65.2080507@xs4all.nl> <4C525D098AC64161A05A78C70DCCDFC8@OPTIPLEX> <7DEDAD52E70C4086BE13E7FC91F7C808@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: On May 23, 2010, at 10:50 PM, Richard Hayes wrote: > > The experiment is discussed in some detail on "As it happens" for May 18, 2010. You can listen to the podcast by going to the web page for that day's program: > http://www.cbc.ca/radioshows/AS_IT_HAPPENS/20100518.shtml > You might be able to find out even more by doing a search for the lead researcher, Victoria Talwar, who is an Associate Professor of Human Development at McGill University. This is different from the experiment I saw, so I will continue to look. This one looks more sound than what I saw, in which a chid was expected to show approval or disapproval of immoral (or mean) acts by teddy bears and would reward the nice (presumably white) teddy bear. From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 24 09:15:39 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 09:15:39 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Morals in 6 months old kids In-Reply-To: References: <4BF8ED65.2080507@xs4all.nl><4C525D098AC64161A05A78C70DCCDFC8@OPTIPLEX><7DEDAD52E70C4086BE13E7FC91F7C808@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <822F9F60CD2A4E20A5B12A745332585F@OPTIPLEX> All that this suggests to me is that kids are born with a self-preservation instinct, hence lying when doing what they were told not to do. Agreed about what adults do. In fact these so-called experiments are simply training kids to lie....preparing them, for the big world ahead. Joanna _______________________________ The experiment is discussed in some detail on "As it happens" for May 18, 2010. You can listen to the podcast by going to the web page for that day's program: http://www.cbc.ca/radioshows/AS_IT_HAPPENS/20100518.shtml You might be able to find out even more by doing a search for the lead researcher, Victoria Talwar, who is an Associate Professor of Human Development at McGill University. In brief, the researcher placed a toy in a hidden place and told the child where the toy was hidden and said not to peek at the toy. The researcher then left the room for a minute and came back in. A camera recorded the child's behaviour. Almost all the children peeked. When asked whether they had looked, 70% lied. The study also included asking the children follow-up questions, such as "What do you think the hidden toy might be?" Slightly older children, around age 4, had learned to cover up their initial lie with another one, such as "How should I know? I didn't look." Younger children were not very good at covering up their initial lie. My favorite bungled cover up was "I think it might be a purple cat. I didn't peek, but I touched it, and it felt purple." What the study shows, I think, is that by age 4 a child is ready to run for public office. One thing the psychologist said that intrigued me was that even though children eventually learn that lying is not acceptable behaviour, it is almost unheard of for a human being to stop telling lies. What they learn to do is to justify their lying by calling it something like up?ya. The Buddhists knew that stratagem very well. Richard _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From Jackhat1 at aol.com Mon May 24 09:28:11 2010 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 11:28:11 EDT Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor Message-ID: <551dd.65b644d9.392bf50b@aol.com> In a message dated 5/22/2010 11:41:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, lemmett at talk21.com writes: Is there a middle ground between rebirth and thinking that karma is purely psychological? I can't think of one. Sorry if I've misrepresented Batchelor here. == Several Buddhist teachers have brought the two together. One is Phra Prayudhi Payutto in his book Buddhadhamma: Natural Laws and Values for Life (SUNY publication). To put it simply, their view is that moment to moment rebirth (psychological rebirth) is the same process during life and as in what happens after life ends. Tendencies carry over from moment to moment during life and as well as after life ends. jack From bshmr at aol.com Mon May 24 10:14:58 2010 From: bshmr at aol.com (R B Basham) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 10:14:58 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Morals in 6 months old kids In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1274717698.18209.20.camel@aims110> On Mon, 2010-05-24 at 09:15 -0600, buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com wrote: > By the way, I have changed the settings of buddha-l slightly. From now > on, all messages will be moderated. Contributors who make deposits > into my PayPal account will see their messages approved. Priority will > go to those who make the biggest deposits. > Since I have your spouse indirectly on retainer, the above should not apply to me. OTT: McGill is furrin, a mudhasa; the researcher's gender issues over his given name has clouded his judgement; and the children must be third-world furriners. To switch to genuine: Children do relate in terms of similes which are often mistaken for fantasy by judgmental adults; or, children react to subtle cues from semi-conscious, 'god-like' adults (of all persuasions). ... . However, they learn 99.99% by imitation. Richard Basham From rhayes at unm.edu Mon May 24 10:18:28 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 10:18:28 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Morals in 6 months old kids In-Reply-To: <822F9F60CD2A4E20A5B12A745332585F@OPTIPLEX> References: <4BF8ED65.2080507@xs4all.nl><4C525D098AC64161A05A78C70DCCDFC8@OPTIPLEX><7DEDAD52E70C4086BE13E7FC91F7C808@OPTIPLEX> <822F9F60CD2A4E20A5B12A745332585F@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: On May 24, 2010, at 9:15 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > All that this suggests to me is that kids are born with a > self-preservation instinct, hence lying when doing what they were > told not to do. That is exactly the conclusion of the developmental psychologist. > In fact these so-called experiments > are simply training kids to lie....preparing them, for the big > world ahead. I doubt the experiments are training people to do anything they are not naturally inclined to do in the first place. The way the experiment is set up, it looks to me as though it is mostly just recording what children do. (Did I forget to add that all the children in the experiment were from religious minorities and that when they were caught lying in the experiment, they were then put into cages with big, hungry dogs in Guant?namo?) From rhayes at unm.edu Mon May 24 10:30:32 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 10:30:32 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Morals in 6 months old kids In-Reply-To: <1274717698.18209.20.camel@aims110> References: <1274717698.18209.20.camel@aims110> Message-ID: On May 24, 2010, at 10:14 AM, R B Basham wrote: > Children do relate in terms of similes which are often mistaken for > fantasy by judgmental adults; or, children react to subtle cues from > semi-conscious, 'god-like' adults (of all persuasions). ... . However, > they learn 99.99% by imitation. I urge people who are interested in the experiment to listen to the "As It Happens" program where it was discussed and where (as I recall) references were given to the published version of the work under discussion. The set-up of the experiment was more complex than I described, so don't judge the experiment by my truncated description. Now that you mention it, R.B., the experiment was conducted after the experimenters lied to the children about what they were doing, so the kids probably just imitated the researchers. But actually, I lied when I wrote that just now; either that, or I'm lying as I write this sentence. (Dan Lusthaus says everything I ever say anywhere is a lie.) See how contagious lying is? Once a 2.5 year-old kid lies to a psychologist in Montreal, the whole damn world is following suit! Lord, please help me, before I imitate again!! R.P. From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 24 10:45:29 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 10:45:29 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Morals in 6 months old kids In-Reply-To: References: <4BF8ED65.2080507@xs4all.nl><4C525D098AC64161A05A78C70DCCDFC8@OPTIPLEX><7DEDAD52E70C4086BE13E7FC91F7C808@OPTIPLEX><822F9F60CD2A4E20A5B12A745332585F@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: On May 24, 2010, at 9:15 AM, JKirkpatrick wrote: > All that this suggests to me is that kids are born with a > self-preservation instinct, hence lying when doing what they were told > not to do. RH: That is exactly the conclusion of the developmental psychologist. > In fact these so-called experiments > are simply training kids to lie....preparing them, for the big world > ahead. RH: I doubt the experiments are training people to do anything they are not naturally inclined to do in the first place. Let's say that maybe the experiments reinforce their instinctive responses. As they grow older and more aware of the need to be on the defensive from various powers in their worlds, their defensive strategies of course become even more reinforced. By the time they go to work for the military-industrial complex, heaven help them (us) all. (Higher ed has now become a member of that august assembly, judging by what programs get canned, where the grant money comes from, and what sorts become the administrators.) The vast body of work jokes attests to the need for effective everyday upaya. From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Mon May 24 11:39:21 2010 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 10:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Haiku Microsoft Error Messages Message-ID: <349132.12202.qm@web112604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Couldn't resist sharing this. ? Katherine Masis ------------------------------------- ? In Japan, they have replaced the impersonal and unhelpful Microsoft error messages with their own Japanese haiku poetry.? ? http://www.davidenglish.com/jar.html) ? Your file was so big. It might be very useful. But now it is gone. Chaos reigns within. Reflect, repent, and reboot. Order shall return. The Web site you seek Can not be located, but Countless more exist. Aborted effort. Close all that you have worked on. You ask far too much. Windows NT crashed. I am the Blue Screen of Death. No one hears your screams. Yesterday it worked. Today it is not working. Windows is like that. Stay the patient course. Of little worth is your ire. The network is down. A crash reduces Your expensive computer To a simple stone. Three things are certain: Death, taxes, and lost data. Guess which has occurred. You step in the stream, But the water has moved on. This page is not here. Out of memory. We wish to hold the whole sky, But we never will. Having been erased, The document you?re seeking Must now be retyped. I ate your Web page. Forgive me; it was tasty And tart on my tongue. ? http://www.davidenglish.com/jar.html From lemmett at talk21.com Mon May 24 15:11:22 2010 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 14:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <512614.79939.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hello. Can anyone recommend a book on emptiness or the two truths in east asian Buddhism?Also I am a little confused about Chih-I's classifications of the two truths from Swanson's book. In what sense can the emptiness of illusory existence be a conventional truth? My other concern and reason for writing to the list is about annihilation. If?there's no awareness at all at the moment of death but there is the moment before, how can I conceptualize the latter becoming the former: I have to have the idea of permanently losing awareness and I can't see how that's to happen without someone being aware of that - in which case it is persists in some form. Thinking of it?as a stream of elements that are replaced by new ones: if the last dharma is replaced then that's no annihilation, if not where does it go??It don't think can be quite like a fire burning out because a fire doesn't have self cognition.? Is this just entirely non Buddhist? Or can what I've said be related to e.g. 'annihilation' in Buddhism or the Tathagata's silence on what happens to him at death? Do all Buddhists think that the aggregates *completely* burn away at death and that there can be no experience if that's the case? If so in what way might the Tathagata not not exist at death? Hope that makes sense and thanks for any help! From lemmett at talk21.com Mon May 24 18:17:33 2010 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 00:17:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] In-Reply-To: <512614.79939.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <240873.56427.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hello. I'll try and put it another way. Is there consciousness of the extinction of namarupa (which seems contradictory) and if not then how does consciousness abandon all of it? It does seem like an a poria to me, whether there should be a literal positive conclusion from it. Kind thanks. --- On Mon, 24/5/10, lemmett at talk21.com wrote: From: lemmett at talk21.com Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Date: Monday, 24 May, 2010, 22:11 Hello. Can anyone recommend a book on emptiness or the two truths in east asian Buddhism?Also I am a little confused about Chih-I's classifications of the two truths from Swanson's book. In what sense can the emptiness of illusory existence be a conventional truth? My other concern and reason for writing to the list is about annihilation. If?there's no awareness at all at the moment of death but there is the moment before, how can I conceptualize the latter becoming the former: I have to have the idea of permanently losing awareness and I can't see how that's to happen without someone being aware of that - in which case it is persists in some form. Thinking of it?as a stream of elements that are replaced by new ones: if the last dharma is replaced then that's no annihilation, if not where does it go??It don't think can be quite like a fire burning out because a fire doesn't have self cognition.? Is this just entirely non Buddhist? Or can what I've said be related to e.g. 'annihilation' in Buddhism or the Tathagata's silence on what happens to him at death? Do all Buddhists think that the aggregates *completely* burn away at death and that there can be no experience if that's the case? If so in what way might the Tathagata not not exist at death? Hope that makes sense and thanks for any help! _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Mon May 24 18:55:51 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 18:55:51 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] In-Reply-To: <240873.56427.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <240873.56427.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32F16FF5-F042-4E9C-A34F-3DB30E19CEBF@unm.edu> On May 24, 2010, at 18:17, "lemmett at talk21.com" wrote: > Hello. I'll try and put it another way. Is there consciousness of > the extinction of namarupa (which seems contradictory) and if not > then how does consciousness abandon all of it? There is a way to find out. Let your namarupa go extinct and see whether you are conscious of it. But why do you ask? What hinges on the answer? Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Mon May 24 19:02:58 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 19:02:58 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] In-Reply-To: <512614.79939.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <512614.79939.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4048A117-F185-4029-BFA3-8F5AD685969A@unm.edu> On May 24, 2010, at 15:11, "lemmett at talk21.com" wrote: > In what sense can the emptiness of illusory existence be a > conventional truth? Conventional truth is, in the final analysis, the only truth there is. The very idea of truth is conventional. The notion that there are two truths is itself a conventional truth. Richard From bathieme at hotmail.com Mon May 24 19:32:35 2010 From: bathieme at hotmail.com (Barnaby Thieme) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 18:32:35 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] In-Reply-To: <512614.79939.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: , <512614.79939.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello, FWIW I think both of the answers that the good Doctor Hayes has thus far offered are exactly right. But if you're interested in further philosophical peregrinations (and who among us isn't?) you might have a look at Ng Yu-Kwan's useful /T'ien-t'ai Buddhism and Early Madhyamika/. It appears to be out of print but readily available used through Amazon. xo~ Barnaby _________________________________ More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction. Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly. -- Woody Allen > Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 14:11:22 -0700 > From: lemmett at talk21.com > To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] > > Hello. > Can anyone recommend a book on emptiness or the two truths in east asian Buddhism?Also I am a little confused about Chih-I's classifications of the two truths from Swanson's book. In what sense can the emptiness of illusory existence be a conventional truth? > My other concern and reason for writing to the list is about annihilation. If there's no awareness at all at the moment of death but there is the moment before, how can I conceptualize the latter becoming the former: I have to have the idea of permanently losing awareness and I can't see how that's to happen without someone being aware of that - in which case it is persists in some form. > Thinking of it as a stream of elements that are replaced by new ones: if the last dharma is replaced then that's no annihilation, if not where does it go? It don't think can be quite like a fire burning out because a fire doesn't have self cognition. > Is this just entirely non Buddhist? > Or can what I've said be related to e.g. 'annihilation' in Buddhism or the Tathagata's silence on what happens to him at death? Do all Buddhists think that the aggregates *completely* burn away at death and that there can be no experience if that's the case? If so in what way might the Tathagata not not exist at death? > Hope that makes sense and thanks for any help! > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From jkirk at spro.net Mon May 24 20:48:16 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 20:48:16 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] In-Reply-To: <512614.79939.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <512614.79939.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <81AB12BE9537431EAB3B9F903F0F14D2@OPTIPLEX> On the 2 truths, you might consider getting Sonam Thakchoe's book, The Two Truths Debate. Jay Garfield wrote the Foreward. Wisdom Pubs., 2007. Best, Joanna ____________________________________ lemmett at talk21.com Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 3:11 PM Hello. Can anyone recommend a book on emptiness or the two truths in east asian Buddhism?Also I am a little confused about Chih-I's classifications of the two truths from Swanson's book. In what sense can the emptiness of illusory existence be a conventional truth? My other concern and reason for writing to the list is about annihilation. If?there's no awareness at all at the moment of death but there is the moment before, how can I conceptualize the latter becoming the former: I have to have the idea of permanently losing awareness and I can't see how that's to happen without someone being aware of that - in which case it is persists in some form. Thinking of it?as a stream of elements that are replaced by new ones: if the last dharma is replaced then that's no annihilation, if not where does it go??It don't think can be quite like a fire burning out because a fire doesn't have self cognition. Is this just entirely non Buddhist? Or can what I've said be related to e.g. 'annihilation' in Buddhism or the Tathagata's silence on what happens to him at death? Do all Buddhists think that the aggregates *completely* burn away at death and that there can be no experience if that's the case? If so in what way might the Tathagata not not exist at death? Hope that makes sense and thanks for any help! _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From lemmett at talk21.com Mon May 24 21:01:01 2010 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 03:01:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] In-Reply-To: <32F16FF5-F042-4E9C-A34F-3DB30E19CEBF@unm.edu> Message-ID: <25421.34631.qm@web86605.mail.ird.yahoo.com> You mean sleep? I don't think that's the same sort of thing. Maybe the mind skips over those bits. Why suppose that involves abandoning the aggregates any more than we do moment to moment if we're only consciousness of falling asleep and waking up? I'm just curious I guess, I think about it quite a bit. Seems a little religious. Thanks for the book recommendation Joanna. --- On Tue, 25/5/10, Richard Hayes wrote: From: Richard Hayes Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Date: Tuesday, 25 May, 2010, 1:55 On May 24, 2010, at 18:17, "lemmett at talk21.com" ? wrote: > Hello. I'll try and put it another way. Is there consciousness of? > the extinction of namarupa (which seems contradictory) and if not? > then how does consciousness abandon all of it? There is a way to find out. Let your namarupa go extinct and see? whether you are conscious of it. But why do you ask? What hinges on? the answer? Richard _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From lemmett at talk21.com Tue May 25 06:02:00 2010 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 12:02:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] In-Reply-To: <4048A117-F185-4029-BFA3-8F5AD685969A@unm.edu> Message-ID: <59337.32303.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> >>? In what sense can the emptiness of illusory existence be a? >> conventional truth? >Conventional truth is, in the final analysis, the only truth there is.? >The very idea of truth is conventional. The notion that there are two? >truths is itself a conventional truth. >Richard Which is emptiness - the difference just being that bodhisattvas don't linger in it?? If with that non-lingering there is no notion of truth what can vivify practice? From Jackhat1 at aol.com Tue May 25 07:17:03 2010 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 09:17:03 EDT Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] Message-ID: <825a.4e1c103e.392d27cf@aol.com> In a message dated 5/24/2010 4:52:03 P.M. Central Daylight Time, lemmett at talk21.com writes: Can anyone recommend a book on emptiness or the two truths in east asian Buddhism?Also I am a little confused about Chih-I's classifications of the two truths from Swanson's book. In what sense can the emptiness of illusory existence be a conventional truth? == To answer I would think I need to know what you think Buddhist's use of emptiness means. ================= My other concern and reason for writing to the list is about annihilation. If there's no awareness at all at the moment of death but there is the moment before, how can I conceptualize the latter becoming the former: I have to have the idea of permanently losing awareness and I can't see how that's to happen without someone being aware of that - in which case it is persists in some form. Thinking of it as a stream of elements that are replaced by new ones: if the last dharma is replaced then that's no annihilation, if not where does it go? It don't think can be quite like a fire burning out because a fire doesn't have self cognition. === According to the teachings, there is no someone, no self, no I that persists. ===== Is this just entirely non Buddhist? Or can what I've said be related to e.g. 'annihilation' in Buddhism or the Tathagata's silence on what happens to him at death? Do all Buddhists think that the aggregates *completely* burn away at death and that there can be no experience if that's the case? If so in what way might the Tathagata not not exist at death? === The tathagata's silence was due to his view that discussions about it were not helpful. jack From rhayes at unm.edu Tue May 25 07:57:15 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 07:57:15 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] In-Reply-To: <59337.32303.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <59337.32303.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <825AD686-94AC-4FB7-A54C-F81C9D089F61@unm.edu> On May 25, 2010, at 6:02 AM, lemmett at talk21.com wrote: >>> In what sense can the emptiness of illusory existence be a >>> conventional truth? > >> Conventional truth is, in the final analysis, the only truth there is. >> The very idea of truth is conventional. The notion that there are two >> truths is itself a conventional truth. > Which is emptiness No, what I described is not emptiness. > If with that non-lingering there is no notion of truth what can vivify practice? When practice is alive, there is no need for anything to vivify it. Only dead things need to be vivified. Forget truth. It's just another distraction. Richard From lemmett at talk21.com Tue May 25 07:59:47 2010 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 06:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] In-Reply-To: <825a.4e1c103e.392d27cf@aol.com> Message-ID: <835753.3886.qm@web86603.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Can anyone recommend a book on emptiness or the two truths in east? asian Buddhism?Also I am a little confused about Chih-I's classifications of? the two truths from Swanson's book. In what sense can the emptiness of? illusory existence be a conventional truth? == To answer I would think I need to know what you think Buddhist's use of? emptiness means. =================? My other concern and reason for writing to the list is about? annihilation. If there's no awareness at all at the moment of death but? there is the moment before, how can I conceptualize the latter becoming the? former: I have to have the idea of permanently losing awareness and I can't? see how that's to happen without someone being aware of that - in which case? it is persists in some form. Thinking of it as a stream of elements? that are replaced by new ones: if the last dharma is replaced then that's no? annihilation, if not where does it go? It don't think can be quite like a? fire burning out because a fire doesn't have self cognition. === According to the teachings, there is no someone, no self, no I that? persists. ===== Is this just entirely non Buddhist? Or can what I've said be related? to e.g. 'annihilation' in Buddhism or the Tathagata's silence on what happens? to him at death? Do all Buddhists think that the aggregates *completely* burn? away at death and that there can be no experience if that's the case? If so in? what way might the Tathagata not not exist at death? === The tathagata's silence was due to his view that discussions about it? were not helpful. jack --- Hello Thank you for the reply. I think that emptiness can be defined in many ways. I do think that it can usefully be said to tie in with impermanence or maybe dependent origination. I'm happy with the idea of three svabhavas: that because the existence of all things depends on all other things, nothing can be picked out by words - not just relative to some ultimate reality but because of the way things already are. I think that does make sense... Thanks. I don't at all want to seem far too muddled to be using the list, but was considering the idea that the burning away of the aggregates to the conscious mind might entail that some subtle trace has to be cognized for extinction to occur. This seems *absurd* and I know that questions like this are generally declared to be unhelpful. But if I had a time machine etc. etc. I'd ask the tathagata whether he was aware of his own passing away. I think Nishitani said that questions about immortality and extinction are more important to life and food.?I think it can be helpful to answer questions with 'anatta' but I'm not sure that I need to posit anything that is not subject to change to at least verbalize (not necessarily argue) for the common-place intuition that I mentioned in my email. I'm happy to treat it as prasangika and avoid claiming that any visual consciousness has the sort of self existence that I mean. I hope the list sees what I mean but like I say I'm not so concerned with formulating my own thesis here; I am happy to take 'slipping into the night' or 'black velvet' as metaphors about life... Thanks for any reply. From lemmett at talk21.com Tue May 25 08:11:25 2010 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 14:11:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] In-Reply-To: <825AD686-94AC-4FB7-A54C-F81C9D089F61@unm.edu> Message-ID: <637317.98339.qm@web86605.mail.ird.yahoo.com> >>>???In what sense can the emptiness of illusory existence be a? >>> conventional truth? > >> Conventional truth is, in the final analysis, the only truth there is.? >> The very idea of truth is conventional. The notion that there are two? >> truths is itself a conventional truth. > Which is emptiness No, what I described is not emptiness. But the conventional truth is the identity of emptiness and existence, or how all our illusory truths are empty? I had reified 'emptiness'? > If with that non-lingering there is no notion of truth what can vivify practice? When practice is alive, there is no need for anything to vivify it. Only dead things need to be vivified. Forget truth. It's just another distraction. Richard So bodhisattvas are motivated by sentient beings' continued apprehension of defilement, or the suffering of others, not their ignorance? I appreciate it and hope that I'm not posting too much - I didn't notice anything in the guidelines - and don't have so many questions. From jkirk at spro.net Tue May 25 09:05:11 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 09:05:11 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying[confused] In-Reply-To: <637317.98339.qm@web86605.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <825AD686-94AC-4FB7-A54C-F81C9D089F61@unm.edu> <637317.98339.qm@web86605.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: When practice is alive, there is no need for anything to vivify it. Only dead things need to be vivified. Forget truth. It's just another distraction. Richard _____________________________ lemmett at talk21.com: So bodhisattvas are motivated by sentient beings' continued apprehension of defilement, or the suffering of others, not their ignorance? I appreciate it and hope that I'm not posting too much - I didn't notice anything in the guidelines - and don't have so many questions. JK: Dear lemmet, Would you considering favoring us with a first name? There's no limit on this list for posts, far as I know. Aside from that, seems you are engaging a lot of thought on metaphysical speculations, on essences--like defilement, emptiness and existence, and so on. As ol' F. Max Mueller would say (my guess), is, you are operating from a "disease of language." If you said what your Buddhist line of choice is, we might be able to suggest more in the way of stuff to read and think about. For a start, however, I recommend Stephen Batchelor's latest book, Confession of a Buddhist Atheist, as a cure for & freedom from excessive essentialist speculation---which, as has already been noted by others, the Buddha counseled against. Cheers, Joanna From lemmett at talk21.com Tue May 25 10:43:17 2010 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 16:43:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying[confused] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <479906.96478.qm@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com> When practice is alive, there is no need for anything to vivify it. Only dead things need to be vivified. Forget truth. It's just another distraction. Richard _____________________________ lemmett at talk21.com: So bodhisattvas are motivated by sentient beings' continued apprehension of defilement, or the suffering of others, not their ignorance? I appreciate it and hope that I'm not posting too much - I didn't notice anything in the guidelines - and don't have so many questions. JK: Dear lemmet, Would you considering favoring us with a first name? There's no limit on this list for posts, far as I know. Aside from that, seems you are engaging a lot of thought on metaphysical speculations, on essences--like defilement, emptiness and existence, and so on.? As ol' F. Max Mueller would say (my guess), is, you are operating from a "disease of language." If you said what your Buddhist line of choice is, we might be able to suggest more in the way of stuff to read and think about. For a start, however, I recommend Stephen Batchelor's latest book, Confession of a Buddhist Atheist, as a cure for & freedom from excessive essentialist speculation---which, as has already been noted by others, the Buddha counseled against. Cheers, Joanna? Oh ok, I notice that I'm too concerned with metaphysics though I have been worse; I find it easier to?get at what I read that way. I'm most interested in East Asian Buddhism and especially Dogen, because of the Buddha nature but try to read around Buddhism in general. I am though interested in dialectic or argument, as well as 'annihilation'. That's pretty much all I have to say. I will read that book but am not on a course so not right now. I think that covers it! Thanks, Luke From jhubbard at smith.edu Wed May 26 11:29:45 2010 From: jhubbard at smith.edu (Jamie Hubbard) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 13:29:45 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Have more fun: deny nirvana, not rebirth [was Batchelor] In-Reply-To: <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4BFD5A89.90901@smith.edu> (a bit behind the curve of the discussion due to some addressing problems). Richard Hayes wrote: > Bodhi has a very sharp mind and approaches Buddhist texts with a kind > of rabbinical thoroughness. I can easily see why a textual scholar of > his calibre would find it odd that a person claiming to be a Buddhist > does not find the doctrine of rebirth helpful, especially since it is > so indisputably part of Buddhist tradition. While I can easily > understand Bodhi's position, I simply don't agree with it. As far as I > could see, Bodhi was able to see how someone could hold my position, > but he does not agree with it. Not a single hint of anyone calling > skepticism about rebirth heretical ever emerged in these discussions. > (Jamie Hubbard may have different memories than mine on this matter. I > think he was hoping Bhikkhu Bodhi and I would break chairs over one > another's heads in the style of an old-fashioned barroom brawl.) Actually, the discussion/symposium you are referring to was not about rebirth per se but about rebirth and nirvana (or Buddha, or Buddhahood, or awakening, or whatever you want to call it). And it is true that I was expecting a bit more Buddha-l style Richard (when you compared Dharma to a fart you got close, at least in the humorously provocative department), but I have since learned that your impeccably tolerant nice guy approach is but one more way to piss 'em off, at least if (as with me that time) somebody is hoping for heated arguments. I mean, you and Jay Garfield in the same room don't even mix it up, and that is sheer impossibility! Alas-- but I tried, and a good time was had by all, in spite of your niceness. As for heresy, it depends on how you want to define it-- if, for example, it is an act of "choosing" a heterodox view (that is, "wrong view") that in turn can get you called a "non-Buddhist" or kicked out of the sangha or even killed, then, in fact Buddhism has lots of historical examples of heresies. > As I see it (if I may paraphrase Henry Kissinger), debates among > Buddhists often become quite animated because there is so little at > stake. What practical difference could it possibly make whether or not > one believes in rebirth? The issue for Bhikkhu Bodhi is not, I believe, the question of morality or karmic consequences across lifetimes and whether one would be more or less virtuous without inevitable future consequences. Rather the issue is nirvana. In his view (and I think that he is correct), without a belief in literal rebirth in which you must come back and die over and over again until you achieve the complete awakening of Buddhahood, there is but this one lifetime, and the imperative of striving for perfection loses its traction. Heck-- a more simple form of happiness ought to suffice. Hence Buddhism becomes but "a sophisticated ancient system of humanistic psychotherapy" (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhilbps-essay _ 06.html), or, as it is often called, "Buddhism light." I think that this is also one of the reasons that HHDL is so adamant about the truth of rebirth ("not finding something [disembodied consciousness floating about "in-between" until a next birth] is not the same as finding its non-existence"). Nirvana is at stake, not moral behavior. > Well, now that I raise that question, I do recall someone on this list > back in 1993 or so claiming that people who deny rebirth are doing > Mara's work and will surely spend some aeons in hell. But what's the > harm in that? Some of the best bodhisattvas go to hell. That's where > the work is. > Isn't denying nirvana another one of the big no-no's that'll get ya to hell? Of course, I do declare that I am a nirvana denier. But for me the reason isn't a dismissal of rebirth (tho I cannot accept that either), it is simply that although the final goal of the Buddhist path comes in many flavors, most if not all of them have some sort of ultimacy ("maximal greatness," in Griffiths' terms) about their taste that simply renders them unbelievable in today's world, other than as an upaya (kamra = stick and nirvana = carrot). Without denying the power and magic and poetry of the idea, there came a time when I simply had to ask myself what I actually thought might be possible-- and I have yet to come up with anything that smells remotely like nirvana that also seems a possibility for humans. And there are, in fact, "practical differences" that will follow if the complete cessation of all afflictive mental states *and* the necessity of rebirth until that is achieved is denied. Simply put, humanistic psychotherapy makes more sense. And besides, leaving the various philosophical and psychological problems of Buddhahood aside-- isn't the notion that you are going to become free of all negative emotions and become perfectly omniscient and save all beings both ego-maniacal as well as a kind of an unhealthy obsession? I mean-- isn't a realistic appreciation of the actual situation and possible outcomes a good thing, a kind of critical realism that a Buddhist should strive for? As an eminent Japanese scholar once put it to me after a long conference and an even longer evening, "At the end of the day, we are all Pure Landers." It is too easy to be a Buddhist atheist. Be a Buddhist heretic: deny nirvana. Jamie From Jackhat1 at aol.com Wed May 26 12:06:15 2010 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:06:15 EDT Subject: [Buddha-l] Chinese Canon Message-ID: <69b8b.403e5c0e.392ebd17@aol.com> Is the Chinese Canon merely a commentary on the Pali Canon and thus less authoritative (closer to the Buddha's intention)? Or, did parts of the early canon got recorded in Chinese before the Pali was sometimes later tampered with and that is why some of the differences in the Chinese canon can sometimes be more authoritative, I really don't want to get into a discussion of what authoritative means. jack From jmp at peavler.org Wed May 26 12:17:28 2010 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 12:17:28 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying[confused] In-Reply-To: <479906.96478.qm@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <479906.96478.qm@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <572D32A9-4BEE-4B7F-B48B-31B570133437@peavler.org> On May 25, 2010, at 10:43 AM, lemmett at talk21.com wrote: > Oh ok, I notice that I'm too concerned with metaphysics though I have been worse; I find it easier to get at what I read that way. I'm most interested in East Asian Buddhism and especially Dogen, because of the Buddha nature but try to read around Buddhism in general. I am though interested in dialectic or argument, as well as 'annihilation'. That's pretty much all I have to say. I will read that book but am not on a course so not right now. I think that covers it! > Thanks, Luke Dear Luke, Notice how I deleted everything (about 4 or 5 posts all strung together), except enough for us both to tell what I was going to answer. That is good email etiquette, and if all of thee demon buddha-hellers would observe it would reduce the space requirements of the archives by about 75% and would also make searches about half as long. And, besides, it gives more free room for people like Hayes and me to blather on and on and obfuscate to our heart's content. So.You are apparently interested in Mediaeval Chinese buddhism and its aftermath -- commonly known as Zen. Reading that stuff is good, and it is very heady broth indeed. Then, just as you finish your twentieth sutra and 500 pages of koans, some wise ass walks into the monastery and declares reading is unnecessary or even harmful to real enlightenment (the Platform Sutra)! Or a beggar with no formal education or buddhist training shows up all the monks who question with his intuitive understanding of buddhist that shames them all (Vimilakrti Sutra). What's a fella or fellina to do? My answer was to sit very very quietly for long periods of time and study the pain in my knee joints very intensely, forgetting everything else. I still love to read and I love to argue and use spooky words. But I think it is possible to get all tangled up in your head if you start worrying about emptiness and annihilation and those things.Let the pain in your knees teach you. Well. That's probably not very zen, and you have to forgive me for referring to books and ideas rather broadly. I am not a fine detail guy -- I am a mapper. And I just drew you a map. Enjoy buddha-hell but please be email polite. Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org "Be good. Be just." John Adams From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed May 26 12:22:18 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 20:22:18 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Have more fun: deny nirvana, not rebirth [was Batchelor] In-Reply-To: <4BFD5A89.90901@smith.edu> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> <4BFD5A89.90901@smith.edu> Message-ID: <4BFD66DA.4050305@xs4all.nl> Op 26-05-10 19:29, Jamie Hubbard schreef: > It is too easy to be a Buddhist atheist. Be a Buddhist heretic: deny > nirvana. > > Well, now you mention it, I never have been very comfortable with the karma capitalism and the selfish desire for nirv??a. erik From rhayes at unm.edu Wed May 26 12:41:41 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 12:41:41 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Chinese Canon In-Reply-To: <69b8b.403e5c0e.392ebd17@aol.com> References: <69b8b.403e5c0e.392ebd17@aol.com> Message-ID: <73001C1C-F1BD-46FC-B64D-9E8E51643BE1@unm.edu> On May 26, 2010, at 12:06 PM, Jackhat1 at aol.com wrote: > Is the Chinese Canon merely a commentary on the Pali Canon and thus less > authoritative (closer to the Buddha's intention)? Or, did parts of the early > canon got recorded in Chinese before the Pali was sometimes later tampered > with and that is why some of the differences in the Chinese canon can > sometimes be more authoritative, The latter. Some parts of the Chinese canon seem to predate their counterparts in the Pali canon. ?tienne Lamotte's Histoire du bouddhisme indien (also available in English translation) has quite a bit of information on the differences among the canons. > I really don't want to get into a discussion of what authoritative means. There's a good fellow! But what exactly do you mean by "discussion"? Richard From selwyn at ntlworld.com Wed May 26 12:51:43 2010 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:51:43 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Chinese Canon In-Reply-To: <69b8b.403e5c0e.392ebd17@aol.com> References: <69b8b.403e5c0e.392ebd17@aol.com> Message-ID: <4BFD6DBF.1020309@ntlworld.com> Jack, > Is the Chinese Canon merely a commentary on the Pali Canon and thus less > authoritative (closer to the Buddha's intention)? Or, did parts of the > early > canon got recorded in Chinese before the Pali was sometimes later > tampered > with and that is why some of the differences in the Chinese canon can > sometimes be more authoritative, > I'm afraid it is a lot more complicated than that. Chinese translations vary in calibre depending on the translator. They may also translate in accordance with accepted meanings and hence in effect incorporate commentarial ideas. And of course the Chinese Canon contains a vast amount of definitely later material e.g. belonging to the Mah?y?na. But restricting ourselves to translations of Indian texts which were presumably part of the 'canonical' literature of some Indian school, some are based on Indian originals with as good a claim to antiquity as the Pali texts ? they came from a different school or a different area to the Southern Indian tradition preserved in Pali. To over-simplify a little, we can say that they are the scriptures of schools established in areas which are now part of Northern Pakistan or nearby and they were written in G?ndh?r? Prakrit or later in Sanskrit. The Pali Canon is a collection of the scriptures of a school established in what is now Sri Lanka and in parts of Southern India. Pali is basically a tidied up version of the standard written language used across most of what is now India in inscriptions from the second century B.C. until it is gradually displaced by Sanskrit over the course of the first millennium A.D. So which is more authoritative. Well, Pali has a slight edge and of course the Pali texts are much more complete. But effectively we have to take it on a case by case basis. That said, the differences are often not that great in terms of the actual teachings. Lance Cousins From rhayes at unm.edu Wed May 26 13:13:29 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 13:13:29 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Have more fun: deny nirvana, not rebirth [was Batchelor] In-Reply-To: <4BFD5A89.90901@smith.edu> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> <4BFD5A89.90901@smith.edu> Message-ID: <11A0F684-EAAA-423E-96A1-76C4E0FC078C@unm.edu> On May 26, 2010, at 11:29 AM, Jamie Hubbard wrote: > I mean, you and > Jay Garfield in the same room don't even mix it up, and that is sheer > impossibility! You have to remember, Jamie, that Jay and I have walked each other's (or is it others'?) dogs. Men who have bonded with other men's dogs can never fight with them. It would be unnatural. > Isn't denying nirvana another one of the big no-no's that'll get ya to > hell? I'll let you know where I end up after I die. Wait, no I won't. I'm a humanistic materialist, so I don't believe in rebirth. So I won't be letting you know. Still, let's play like there is such a thing as rebirth. I don't think denying nirvana necessarily results in being reborn in hell. I think it just results in being reborn somewhere in samsara (which is, I admit, pretty much like hell almost everywhere one goes these days). > Of course, I do declare that I am a nirvana denier. But for me the > reason isn't a dismissal of rebirth (tho I cannot accept that either), > it is simply that although the final goal of the Buddhist path comes in > many flavors, most if not all of them have some sort of ultimacy > ("maximal greatness," in Griffiths' terms) about their taste that simply > renders them unbelievable in today's world, other than as an upaya > (kamra = stick and nirvana = carrot). Without denying the power and > magic and poetry of the idea, there came a time when I simply had to ask > myself what I actually thought might be possible-- and I have yet to > come up with anything that smells remotely like nirvana that also seems > a possibility for humans. Jamie! Go wash your keyboard off with soap! There might be children reading buddha-l. (At least, there is very good evidence there are no adults who read it.) But I am in complete agreement with you. I think nirvana is a hopelessly outdated idea. I think promising it as a possibility can do nothing much magnify du?kha, for all the reasons you have stated. Sangharakshita has allegedly said that Jack Kornfield should stop calling himself a Buddhist, because Kornfield has said that nirvana as traditionally understood is impossible. (By the way, the Ny?ya school held the same view. Andy Fort, I believe can tell us more about jivanmukti and its deniers in classical India. But will he?) > Simply put, humanistic > psychotherapy makes more sense. I agree completely. But did you really think I had the courage to say something like that at Smith College in front of Bhikkhu Bodhi. I may not believe in nirvana, and I am completely rational in every way and therefore have no false beliefs or superstitions, but I do know that being frowned on by a Jewish bhikkhu causes one's daffodils to wilt. I just can't risk such consequences. Surely you understand. > As an eminent Japanese scholar once put it to me after a long conference > and an even longer evening, "At the end of the day, we are all Pure > Landers." If Sarah Palin gets her way, BP will be given drilling rights in the Pure Land. So at the end of the day, there may not be any pure lands left. > It is too easy to be a Buddhist atheist. Be a Buddhist heretic: deny > nirvana. It is one thing to deny nirvana, but to encourage others do deny it is quite another. Be seeing you in hell, buddy! Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Wed May 26 15:13:09 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 15:13:09 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists Message-ID: <24FA2BB4-4AA2-4B57-B8E1-58F8ACFB05D9@unm.edu> Dear denizens, Recently I was trying to sort out what distinguishes liberal Quakers from Evangelical Quakers, the latter category usually being subdivided into conservative and orthodox Quakers. There are many treatments of the topic, but one that I found especially clear is the one in Pink Dandelion's book The Quakers: A Very Short Introduction. (There are several titles in the Very Short Introduction series that I have found helpful, including Damien Keown's two books on Buddhism. I am waiting for someone to write Very Short Histories: A Rather Long History.) Dandelion's account is not at all original?it is not meant to be?but it is clear, and it works pretty well. And as I was reading it, I thought that much of the framework he uses to talk about Quakers would also apply to Buddhists. So I thought I would paraphrase the framework and leave it as an exercise to the reader to see whether it applies to Buddhists (and especially Buddhists in the latter part of the month of May and perhaps early June in the year 2010). The framework consists of a distinction between realists, semi-realists and non-realists, which are described as follows: Realists believe that their experiences are real and that their theological expressions of their experiences are real, which entails the belief that the theological expressions of other people, insofar as they differ from what is deemed true, must be false. (In a Quaker context, for example, realists would be those who believe that they really are communicating the word of the holy spirit and that their claims about God and Christ are true. They also believe that their experiences verify scripture, which is useless until it is verified by one's own experiences.) Non-realists claim that doctrinal expressions are neither true not false but are instruments for bringing private and subjective experiences about and giving those who have the experiences a common language to talk about them. (So a non-realist Quaker would be one who learns to say such things as "led by the spirit" and perhaps even "God" and "Christ" but who thinks those terms do not name anything real but are vague symbols for things that are valued by the person who uses them.) Semi-realists believe that the contents of experiences are real but that all attempts to talk about them are purely heuristic and ultimately have no truth value. (So a Quaker semi-realist would be someone who believes in God and believes that God can really be experienced but is convinced that statements about God are at best only partial, provisional and essentially subjective statements that cannot be considered true for all people at all times.) Dandelion claims that Evangelical Quakers tend to be realists, while most liberal Quakers are semi-realists and a minority are non-realists. Well, as I read these descriptions (which are more detailed than the brief summaries I have given here), I realized that as a Quaker I would unquestionably best be described as a liberal and most probably as a non-realist (although I would probably hold that it is neither true nor false that I am a non-realist). And then it occurred to me that as a Buddhist I am also pretty much a liberal and much more clearly a non-realist, especially since Jamie Hubbard convinced me that there is no such thing as nirvana and therefore no such a thing as a buddha, an arhant or a bodhisattva. But it is still fun, in a harmless sort of way, to throw those terms around as if they had referents, and one feels a certain amount of kinship with other people who use those words at least three times before lunch. Bhikkhu Bodhi strikes me as mostly a realist. He makes all kinds of noises that lead me to think that he really believes there was a buddha and that nirvana really exists and that there really is a method of achieving it and that the Pali canon really is a record of the truths spoken by that very real buddha. Perhaps I misread Bodhi, but from what I have been able to gather, there are quite a few Buddhist realists, even in such liberal enclaves as Massachusetts and California. After sorting out some of what distinguishes evangelical from liberal Quakers (who, not surprisingly, tend not to hold one another in terribly high esteem and can barely occupy the same room and observe the Quaker peace testimony at the same time), Dandelion goes on to discuss ecumenism and religious pluralism. Needless to say, realists have hardly any room at all for pluralism, and many fear that too much exposure to people with other convictions might undermine their faith and loosen their grip on truth. But most manage to overcome their fear of contact with others for long enough to try to convert them. There is little of an ecumenical or interfaith spirit among realists. What really struck me about Dandelion's account of various attitudes to truth was what he said next about liberal Quakers, which I think might apply also to liberal Buddhists (if there are any). Religious liberals, he says, promote what he calls "the absolute perhaps." Whenever anyone says anything, pluralistic liberals are inclined to respond by saying there may be a grain in truth in what was said, but there are at least as many grains of truth in other views, and since there is no way of tallying up the grains, every claim must be preceded with perhaps (a kind of sy?dv?da?). Liberals tend to be so wary of definitive and absolute claims of any kind that they tend to be at least mildly contemptuous of anyone who shows dangerous signs of being certain of anything. I have to confess that when Dandelion got around to characterizing the absolute perhapsism of theological and philosophical liberals, I had the uneasy feeling he had planted a bugging device in my mind and had recorded my thoughts. As Quakers are wont to say "he spoke to my condition" and perhaps even described me to a tee. All this is by way of explanation for why I have provisionally decided, for the time being at least, to consider perhaps changing the name of buddha-l to perhaps-l. It feels to me as though most of us who can stand to read buddha-l have our feet at least temporarily somewhere near the "absolute perhaps" camp. But perhaps not. It doesn't really matter anyway. So let's change the subject. Richard From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed May 26 15:52:49 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 17:52:49 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists References: <24FA2BB4-4AA2-4B57-B8E1-58F8ACFB05D9@unm.edu> Message-ID: <002d01cafd1d$c9178080$2101a8c0@Dan> For a traditional Buddhist account that holds nirvana to be nonsense (the position of Nagarjuna and Candrakirti), please see the brilliant essay by Bibhuti Yadav, "Negation, Nirvana, Nonsense," publ. in the JAAS back in 1977, available as a free download at http://openpdf.com/ebook/nirvana-pdf.html Also contains an insightful discussion on negation in Dharmakirti. An overlooked gem of Buddhist scholarship. Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Wed May 26 17:10:58 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 17:10:58 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: <002d01cafd1d$c9178080$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <24FA2BB4-4AA2-4B57-B8E1-58F8ACFB05D9@unm.edu> <002d01cafd1d$c9178080$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <10CDAB74-B758-4A4B-8219-F2B6A9F00EC9@unm.edu> On May 26, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > For a traditional Buddhist account that holds nirvana to be nonsense (the > position of Nagarjuna and Candrakirti), please see the brilliant essay by > Bibhuti Yadav, "Negation, Nirvana, Nonsense," publ. in the JAAS back in > 1977, available as a free download at > http://openpdf.com/ebook/nirvana-pdf.html Getting this requires a having a subscription to JAAR. Or so the pop-up window said when I tried to download it. Is a pop-up window a pram??a? It's hard to believe that N?ga and Candra would regard nirv??a as nonsense, but I'll wait to read the article to find out. Even before reading it, I'm fairly confident that neither of those fellows holds that the big N is nonsense in quite the same way that modern humanistic psychology does. Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Wed May 26 17:29:34 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 17:29:34 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: <18012_1274915562_4BFDAAEA_18012_46_1_10CDAB74-B758-4A4B-8219-F2B6A9F00EC9@unm.edu> References: <24FA2BB4-4AA2-4B57-B8E1-58F8ACFB05D9@unm.edu> <002d01cafd1d$c9178080$2101a8c0@Dan> <18012_1274915562_4BFDAAEA_18012_46_1_10CDAB74-B758-4A4B-8219-F2B6A9F00EC9@unm.edu> Message-ID: <11836A59-5994-4E17-A002-F82F8EE86FC1@unm.edu> On May 26, 2010, at 5:10 PM, Richard Hayes wrote: > It's hard to believe that N?ga and Candra would regard nirv??a as nonsense, but I'll wait to read the article to find out. Even before reading it, I'm fairly confident that neither of those fellows holds that the big N is nonsense in quite the same way that modern humanistic psychology does. On the other hand, Pink Dandelion's discussion of non-realism does sound somewhat like Madhyamaka. Or, to put it another way, add a bit of sophistry and a heavy dose of fallacious reasoning to modern theological liberalism, stir half-heartedly, half bake for as long as you feel like it, and you end up with something a lot like Madhyamaka. Chef Richard From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed May 26 17:36:35 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:36:35 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists References: <24FA2BB4-4AA2-4B57-B8E1-58F8ACFB05D9@unm.edu><002d01cafd1d$c9178080$2101a8c0@Dan> <10CDAB74-B758-4A4B-8219-F2B6A9F00EC9@unm.edu> Message-ID: <005a01cafd2c$480c8990$2101a8c0@Dan> >> Bibhuti Yadav, "Negation, Nirvana, Nonsense," publ. in the JAAS back in >> 1977, available as a free download at >> http://openpdf.com/ebook/nirvana-pdf.html > > Getting this requires a having a subscription to JAAR. That appears to be the case. Sorry. I have a copy. Is there a way to post the pdf to the buddha-l server so that those interested can download a copy? > It's hard to believe that N?ga and Candra would regard nirv??a as > nonsense, but I'll wait to read the article to find out. It is logical nonsense, a Buddhist chimera. They are not rejecting it because of prior commitments to some form of materialism or humanism. But let Yadav explain it... The piece also gives Candrakirti's delicious response to type-A grammarians and narrow-minded philologists: na hi ?abd?? d???ap??ik? iva vakt?ramasvatantrayanti, ki? tarhi saty?? ?aktau vakturvivak??manuvidh?yante | (Prasannapad? in the commentary to MMK 1.3, p. 9 in the Shastri edition) "Words are not policemen..." Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed May 26 17:40:38 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:40:38 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists References: <24FA2BB4-4AA2-4B57-B8E1-58F8ACFB05D9@unm.edu><002d01cafd1d$c9178080$2101a8c0@Dan><18012_1274915562_4BFDAAEA_18012_46_1_10CDAB74-B758-4A4B-8219-F2B6A9F00EC9@unm.edu> <11836A59-5994-4E17-A002-F82F8EE86FC1@unm.edu> Message-ID: <006101cafd2c$d88fede0$2101a8c0@Dan> ----- Original Message ----- > On the other hand, Pink Dandelion's discussion of non-realism does sound > somewhat like Madhyamaka. Or, to put it another way, add a bit of > sophistry and a heavy dose of fallacious reasoning to modern theological > liberalism, stir half-heartedly, half bake for as long as you feel like > it, and you end up with something a lot like Madhyamaka. > > Chef Richard We've long suspected that you believe no Buddhist has ever been as clear sighted as the right sort of Quakers, but you're taking away all the fun out of figuring that out by being so darn explicit. Leave some mystery, Richard! Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Wed May 26 18:14:21 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 18:14:21 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: <005a01cafd2c$480c8990$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <24FA2BB4-4AA2-4B57-B8E1-58F8ACFB05D9@unm.edu><002d01cafd1d$c9178080$2101a8c0@Dan> <10CDAB74-B758-4A4B-8219-F2B6A9F00EC9@unm.edu> <005a01cafd2c$480c8990$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <5FE1993B-C0DE-4E33-B511-D6067E2922BD@unm.edu> There is a way to make a file available to the public. A quick way is to send it to me, and I can put it on a public space if that is legal. I'll send information on a different way a bit later. Richard Hayes On May 26, 2010, at 17:36, "Dan Lusthaus" wrote: >>> Bibhuti Yadav, "Negation, Nirvana, Nonsense," publ. in the JAAS >>> back in >>> 1977, available as a free download at >>> http://openpdf.com/ebook/nirvana-pdf.html >> >> Getting this requires a having a subscription to JAAR. > > That appears to be the case. Sorry. I have a copy. Is there a way to > post > the pdf to the buddha-l server so that those interested can download > a copy? > > > >> It's hard to believe that N?ga and Candra would regard nirv??a as >> nonsense, but I'll wait to read the article to find out. > > It is logical nonsense, a Buddhist chimera. They are not rejecting it > because of prior commitments to some form of materialism or > humanism. But > let Yadav explain it... > > The piece also gives Candrakirti's delicious response to type-A > grammarians > and narrow-minded philologists: > > na hi ?abd?? d???ap??ik? iva vakt?ramasvatantrayanti, > ki? tarhi saty?? > ?aktau vakturvivak??manuvidh?yante | > (Prasannapad? in the commentary to MMK 1.3, p. 9 in the Shastri edit > ion) > > "Words are not policemen..." > > Dan > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Wed May 26 18:30:22 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 18:30:22 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: <005a01cafd2c$480c8990$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <24FA2BB4-4AA2-4B57-B8E1-58F8ACFB05D9@unm.edu><002d01cafd1d$c9178080$2101a8c0@Dan> <10CDAB74-B758-4A4B-8219-F2B6A9F00EC9@unm.edu> <005a01cafd2c$480c8990$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <8D303269-67E8-48E3-B0A1-85D7BFEFC424@unm.edu> On May 26, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: >>> Bibhuti Yadav, "Negation, Nirvana, Nonsense," publ. in the JAAS back in >>> 1977, available as a free download at >>> http://openpdf.com/ebook/nirvana-pdf.html >> >> Getting this requires a having a subscription to JAAR. > > That appears to be the case. Sorry. I have a copy. Is there a way to post > the pdf to the buddha-l server so that those interested can download a copy? I have recently started using Dropbox, which is a free service for storing files on the Internet. I use it to keep a couple of computers in sync. One feature of Dropbox is a public folder, where a file can be stored that anyone can download if a link is provided to them. If the product itself sounds interesting, you can assess it by clicking on the following link: https://www.dropbox.com/referrals/NTczNzI2NTY5 Dan has sent me a copy of the file. I'll put a copy in my public folder and send a link later. But I'd really like to know whether it's legal to do that. I don't want a bunch of JAAR lawyers breathing down my neck saying that words are policemen. Any legal experts out there? Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Wed May 26 19:47:14 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:47:14 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: <20492_1274920323_4BFDBD83_20492_13_1_8D303269-67E8-48E3-B0A1-85D7BFEFC424@unm.edu> References: <24FA2BB4-4AA2-4B57-B8E1-58F8ACFB05D9@unm.edu><002d01cafd1d$c9178080$2101a8c0@Dan> <10CDAB74-B758-4A4B-8219-F2B6A9F00EC9@unm.edu> <005a01cafd2c$480c8990$2101a8c0@Dan> <20492_1274920323_4BFDBD83_20492_13_1_8D303269-67E8-48E3-B0A1-85D7BFEFC424@unm.edu> Message-ID: Pssst! Perhaps the Yadav article that might have been referred to earlier is here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7372656/Yadav%20Negation%20Nirvana%20Nonsense.pdf Tell them Danny the Tathagatagarbha sent you. Oh, and thanks, Danny. Dicky the Shrubface From jehms at xs4all.nl Thu May 27 02:14:54 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 10:14:54 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: References: <24FA2BB4-4AA2-4B57-B8E1-58F8ACFB05D9@unm.edu><002d01cafd1d$c9178080$2101a8c0@Dan> <10CDAB74-B758-4A4B-8219-F2B6A9F00EC9@unm.edu> <005a01cafd2c$480c8990$2101a8c0@Dan> <20492_1274920323_4BFDBD83_20492_13_1_8D303269-67E8-48E3-B0A1-85D7BFEFC424@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4BFE29FE.5040309@xs4all.nl> Op 27-05-10 03:47, Richard Hayes schreef: > Pssst! Perhaps the Yadav article that might have been referred to earlier is here: > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7372656/Yadav%20Negation%20Nirvana%20Nonsense.pdf > > Tell them Danny the Tathagatagarbha sent you. > > Oh, and thanks, Danny. > > Dicky the Shrubface > > > Thanx Tatty, last year research suggested that orthodox protestants had trouble getting a helicopterview, suggesting this kind of persuasion is not only a matter of personal choice and biography, but also of physical condition. So some people are born to be absolutists and perhaps others as skeptics. They simply cannot think that there are other sides to the matter. Perhaps you can change it with physical exercise or diet. The pinnacle of nonrealism seems to be a Nietzschean or a Sy?tv?da attitude or perhaps also plain fullbred skepticism. I don't know what the skeptics ate and if they did exercises, but Nietzsche liked long walks and the Jains are strict vegetarians. Is there a liaison between Mc Donalds and the Teaparty Movement? Can lack of vitamins cause realism? Is there something like a nonrealist lifestyle? I for myself try to be as nonrealistic as I can, I forget most real things and I'm on e-maillists that discuss preferably unreal topics. erik From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Thu May 27 03:07:25 2010 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 17:07:25 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Just when you thought Buddhist scholars were silly... In-Reply-To: <4BFE29FE.5040309@xs4all.nl> References: <24FA2BB4-4AA2-4B57-B8E1-58F8ACFB05D9@unm.edu><002d01cafd1d$c9178080$2101a8c0@Dan> <10CDAB74-B758-4A4B-8219-F2B6A9F00EC9@unm.edu> <005a01cafd2c$480c8990$2101a8c0@Dan> <20492_1274920323_4BFDBD83_20492_13_1_8D303269-67E8-48E3-B0A1-85D7BFEFC424@unm.edu> <4BFE29FE.5040309@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <0A6DE2114947482093A73E311335C994@comp.nus.edu.sg> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6681511.stm From Nik.Macleod at proquest.co.uk Thu May 27 04:29:49 2010 From: Nik.Macleod at proquest.co.uk (Macleod, Nik) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 11:29:49 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: <8D303269-67E8-48E3-B0A1-85D7BFEFC424@unm.edu> References: <24FA2BB4-4AA2-4B57-B8E1-58F8ACFB05D9@unm.edu><002d01cafd1d$c9178080$2101a8c0@Dan> <10CDAB74-B758-4A4B-8219-F2B6A9F00EC9@unm.edu> <005a01cafd2c$480c8990$2101a8c0@Dan> <8D303269-67E8-48E3-B0A1-85D7BFEFC424@unm.edu> Message-ID: > On 27 May 2010 at 01:30 Richard Hayes wrote: > ... But I'd really like to know whether it's legal > to do that. I don't want a bunch of JAAR lawyers breathing down > my neck > saying that words are policemen. Any legal experts > out there? I'm no legal expert, but the paper is available through JSTOR Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1463751 Subject of course to JSTOR's terms and conditions of use. Best regards Nik Macleod From lemmett at talk21.com Thu May 27 07:01:18 2010 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 13:01:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: <11836A59-5994-4E17-A002-F82F8EE86FC1@unm.edu> Message-ID: <821357.15311.qm@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com> >On the other hand, Pink Dandelion's discussion of non-realism does sound >somewhat like Madhyamaka. Or, to put it another way, add a bit of sophistry and >a heavy dose of fallacious reasoning to modern theological liberalism, stir half-?>heartedly, half bake for as long as you feel like it, and you end up with something >a lot like Madhyamaka. Surely it's not sophistry unless it's proven wrong - not just weak - in which case it's merely irrelevant or slightly mad.? I think there is some reality to nirvana (though not to the extent of being esteemable) because I really really do believe that annihilation isn't conceivable maybe even possible. At least there is no precedent for an incipient change to consciousness occurring without moving into awareness, I'm not as sure that I think it's essentially so.? That does sound like nonsense but only phenomenology as far as I know talks accurately about consciousness itself and immortality probably wasn't part of Husserl's project. 'The phenomenology of annihilation' isn't very gripping though, is it..? From alberto.tod at gmail.com Thu May 27 07:06:55 2010 From: alberto.tod at gmail.com (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 09:06:55 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFE6E6F.3010803@gmail.com> Richard Hayes wrote: > I'll put a copy in my public folder and send a link later. But I'd really like to know whether it's legal to do that. I don't want a bunch of JAAR lawyers breathing down my neck saying that words are policemen. Any legal experts out there? I'm not a lawyer but from what I've heard from the music and movies world, I suspect that legal it ain't (in the US at least, most other countries have saner IP laws) because you are willfully making something available with the specific intention of letting people download it. As you know, one can find hundreds of academic books on Buddhism via Gigapedia.com and Scribd.com (the former will give you links to file-hosting websites, the latter actually does the hosting). Indeed, I think through gigapedia you'll find literally hundreds of thousands of books on every imaginable topic and a few unimaginable ones. Routledge and OUP, who provide pdfs of their books, appear extremely quickly after publication, e.g., Westerhoff's translation of the Vigrahavy?vartan?. It's a fascinating phenomenon and I'm surprised book publishers haven't been more aggressive, as record and movie companies have been. Regards, Alberto Todeschini (happy Ubuntu and Dropbox user) From rhayes at unm.edu Thu May 27 07:09:22 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 07:09:22 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: <821357.15311.qm@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <821357.15311.qm@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D73F4ED-78F2-4180-81A6-5314F416CE5F@unm.edu> On May 27, 2010, at 7:01 AM, lemmett at talk21.com wrote: >> On the other hand, Pink Dandelion's discussion of non-realism does sound somewhat like Madhyamaka. Or, to put it another way, add a bit of sophistry and a heavy dose of fallacious reasoning to modern theological liberalism, stir half-heartedly, half bake for as long as you feel like it, and you end up with something a lot like Madhyamaka. > > Surely it's not sophistry unless it's proven wrong - not just weak - in which case it's merely irrelevant or slightly mad. Sorry, I forgot to add the serving instructions for my recipe: "Best served lukewarm and eaten with tongue in cheek." Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From rhayes at unm.edu Thu May 27 07:46:34 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 07:46:34 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: <4BFE6E6F.3010803@gmail.com> References: <4BFE6E6F.3010803@gmail.com> Message-ID: On May 27, 2010, at 7:06 AM, Alberto Todeschini wrote: > I'm not a lawyer but from what I've heard from the music and movies > world, I suspect that legal it ain't (in the US at least, most other > countries have saner IP laws) because you are willfully making something > available with the specific intention of letting people download it. I suspect you're right. Being the uptight raving paranoid sort of fellow that I am, I could hardly sleep at all last night. Every mouse who ran across the kitchen floor during the night sounded to me like the copyright Gestapo breaking down the doors to my house. But seriously, folks (if I may quote Joe Walsh, composer of the unforgettable lines "I can't complain, but sometimes I still do"), as I gather around the water cooler with my academic friends to discuss the latest round of budget cuts to the university library, I hear more and more people voicing their disgust with academic publishers. More and more we find that authors have to do their own copy editing, their own proofreading, and even their own marketing for publishers that then sell academic books at elevated prices. So many of my friends are saying "Why should I put my work out through a publisher, when I could just produce my own pdf version and put it on my website?" This is especially attractive to those of us who have published materials with outfits that explicitly forbid us from publishing pdf versions of our own published writing on websites. The whole culture of academia is to make work available for others to see?the idea is to disseminate learning, not to hide it away and guard it as carefully as a toddler guards her last gumdrop. The downside of self-publication, of course, is that one gets little credit from the bean-counters who have nothing better to do with their lives than to try to quantify how productive professors are and whether they deserve a virtual raise in pay. (I say "virtual" because salaries have been frozen at my university for several years, but we still have to go through the inane process of reporting how many earth-shatteringly important publications we have produced so that bureaucrats can determine how much money we would be given if there were any to give. Bah!) Things like tenure and promotion still hinge on shoving one's words through the mills of reputable capitalist publishers. This makes little sense, given how difficult books and journal articles are to change once they have been published, whereas a PDF file can be revised every time an astute reader like Lusthaus points out all the foolish things one has said. Conventional publications are frozen in imperfection. No non-self respecting Buddhist should go near conventional publications. > As you know, one can find hundreds of academic books on Buddhism via > Gigapedia.com and Scribd.com (the former will give you links to > file-hosting websites, the latter actually does the hosting). Thanks for giving me more credit than I deserve, Alberto. Actually, I had never heard of Gigapedia. Thanks for the information. I'll look into it (and then let my inner Protestant feel slightly guilty about it). > It's a fascinating phenomenon and I'm surprised book publishers haven't > been more aggressive, as record and movie companies have been. My guess is that if any academics were publishing books that brought in as much money as "Avatar" (the movie) or "Thriller" (the album), book publishers would be more aggressive. But let's face it, no matter how good Jan Westerhoff's latest book may be, it is not going to give Michael Jackson's estate a run for its money. I'd say more, but the storm troopers are out in the yard with a bullhorn saying something like "We know you're in there, Shrubface. Come out with your hands tied behind your back, your ankles tied together and a noose around your neck!" Richard From jkirk at spro.net Thu May 27 08:29:49 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 08:29:49 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Just when you thought Buddhist scholars were silly... In-Reply-To: <0A6DE2114947482093A73E311335C994@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: <24FA2BB4-4AA2-4B57-B8E1-58F8ACFB05D9@unm.edu><002d01cafd1d$c9178080$2101a8c0@Dan> <10CDAB74-B758-4A4B-8219-F2B6A9F00EC9@unm.edu> <005a01cafd2c$480c8990$2101a8c0@Dan> <20492_1274920323_4BFDBD83_20492_13_1_8D303269-67E8-48E3-B0A1-85D7BFEFC424@unm.edu><4BFE29FE.5040309@xs4all.nl> <0A6DE2114947482093A73E311335C994@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <2AF9BB4B93E44B05B833E980DB40E7F7@OPTIPLEX> Hey--how to stop sexual harrassment at the ol' office-yeah....... _____________________. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6681511.stm _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From Jackhat1 at aol.com Thu May 27 08:40:01 2010 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 10:40:01 EDT Subject: [Buddha-l] Chinese Canon Message-ID: <818ef.62e7f14d.392fde41@aol.com> In a message dated 5/26/2010 1:52:00 P.M. Central Daylight Time, selwyn at ntlworld.com writes: > Is the Chinese Canon merely a commentary on the Pali Canon and thus less > authoritative (closer to the Buddha's intention)? Or, did parts of the > early > canon got recorded in Chinese before the Pali was sometimes later > tampered > with and that is why some of the differences in the Chinese canon can > sometimes be more authoritative, ==== Lance and Richard, Many thanks for your answers. Jack From alberto.tod at gmail.com Thu May 27 08:54:26 2010 From: alberto.tod at gmail.com (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 10:54:26 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFE87A2.4050409@gmail.com> Richard Hayes wrote: > I hear more and more people voicing their disgust with academic publishers. Yep, as I mentioned on this list before, last I heard the University of Virginia was paying almost $4 million *yearly* for *e-journals only*. A copyright lawyer who gave a talk here described the practices of academic publishers as "monopolistic" and "like a cartel". Rest assured that they squeeze every last penny that they can out of libraries. > More and more we find that authors have to do their own copy editing, their own proofreading, and even their own marketing for publishers that then sell academic books at elevated prices. So many of my friends are saying "Why should I put my work out through a publisher, when I could just produce my own pdf version and put it on my website?" This is especially attractive to those of us who have published materials with outfits that explicitly forbid us from publishing pdf versions of our own published writing on websites. I'm still working, with my friend and colleague Louis-Dominique Dubeau, on Buddhist Thought (no content yet, but here's a first look at the website: www.buddhist-thought.info), a peer-reviewed, open access journal on, well, Buddhist thought. We have about half a dozen reviewers committed to the project, some well-known names as well as some younger scholars. Progress is a bit slow, because we want to make sure that we keep the direction toward high standards. We haven't finalized the license yet, but it will certainly allow authors to republish and offer their works elsewhere as they see fit. They won't even need to ask us. Best, Alberto Todeschini From lemmett at talk21.com Thu May 27 09:14:55 2010 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 15:14:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying[confused] In-Reply-To: <572D32A9-4BEE-4B7F-B48B-31B570133437@peavler.org> Message-ID: <426945.17702.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> >So.You are apparently interested in Mediaeval Chinese buddhism and its >aftermath -- commonly known as Zen. Reading that stuff is good, and it is very >heady broth indeed. Then, just as you finish your twentieth sutra and 500 pages >of koans, some wise ass walks into the monastery and declares reading is >unnecessary or even harmful to real enlightenment (the Platform Sutra)! Or a >beggar with no formal education or buddhist training shows up all the monks who >question with his intuitive understanding of buddhist that shames them all ?>(Vimilakrti Sutra). Would it be embarrassingly un-zen to say that I don't really care about losing out like that, as long as I get to keep the 200 sutras? >What's a fella or fellina to do? My answer was to sit very very quietly for long >periods of time and study the pain in my knee joints very intensely, forgetting >everything else. I think I like meditation like I do listening to music: doing so constantly seem inefficient and counterproductive unless you can make a career out of it or amuse others in some way. It's not even communal. And I'd probably prefer to go beyond thought confronted by something other than a wall. Not that there's nothing to be said for taking meditation seriously but I'm not sure I know how, how to prioritize it before all those other things that fill up the day and are either addictive or that bit more structured. Is that weak or heretical? From curt at cola.iges.org Thu May 27 11:33:05 2010 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 13:33:05 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Have more fun: deny nirvana, not rebirth [was Batchelor] In-Reply-To: <11A0F684-EAAA-423E-96A1-76C4E0FC078C@unm.edu> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> <4BFD5A89.90901@smith.edu> <11A0F684-EAAA-423E-96A1-76C4E0FC078C@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4BFEACD1.5040200@cola.iges.org> the ultimate buddhist heresy is, of course, to deny anatman. anything else is only a half measure at best. also, nothing can possibly count as "buddhist heresy" so long as it is claimed to be the original pure undegenerated teaching of the buddha. curt From jkirk at spro.net Thu May 27 11:35:39 2010 From: jkirk at spro.net (JKirkpatrick) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 11:35:39 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: <4BFE87A2.4050409@gmail.com> References: <4BFE87A2.4050409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E7BD325EC5D45F8A9B78C3BFB47EDA8@OPTIPLEX> Bravo! _____________________ I'm still working, with my friend and colleague Louis-Dominique Dubeau, on Buddhist Thought (no content yet, but here's a first look at the website: www.buddhist-thought.info), a peer-reviewed, open access journal on, well, Buddhist thought. We have about half a dozen reviewers committed to the project, some well-known names as well as some younger scholars. Progress is a bit slow, because we want to make sure that we keep the direction toward high standards. We haven't finalized the license yet, but it will certainly allow authors to republish and offer their works elsewhere as they see fit. They won't even need to ask us. Best, Alberto Todeschini From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu May 27 12:11:31 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 14:11:31 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Have more fun: deny nirvana, not rebirth [was Batchelor] References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> <4BFD5A89.90901@smith.edu><11A0F684-EAAA-423E-96A1-76C4E0FC078C@unm.edu> <4BFEACD1.5040200@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <00a401cafdc8$0a3e44e0$2101a8c0@Dan> > the ultimate buddhist heresy is, of course, to deny anatman. anything > else is only a half measure at best. Then, Curt, was Nagarjuna a heretic when he wrote: atmetyapi praj?apitamanatmetyapi desitam| buddhairnatma na canatma kascidityapi desitam||6|| Just to make things dicey, here is Streng's rendering, followed by Garfield (the latter from the Tibetan): There is the teaching of "individual self" (atma), and the teaching of "non-individual self" (anatma); But neither "individual self" nor "non-individual self" whatever has been taught by the Buddhas. (Streng) That these is a self has been taught, And the doctrine of no-self, By the buddhas, as well as the Doctrine of neither self nor nonself. (Garfield) (did Jay miss a negative in the Tibetan?) I would render the last line something like: "No such thing as atman nor anatman were taught by the Buddhas." (though structurally Streng's is closer, preserving the "neither...nor...") Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu May 27 12:19:47 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 14:19:47 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Have more fun: deny nirvana, not rebirth [was Batchelor] References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> <4BFD5A89.90901@smith.edu><11A0F684-EAAA-423E-96A1-76C4E0FC078C@unm.edu><4BFEACD1.5040200@cola.iges.org> <00a401cafdc8$0a3e44e0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <00b301cafdc9$30d6d580$2101a8c0@Dan> BTW, I neglected to mention the verse comes from ch. 18 of MMK, entitled investigation of self. (For some reason the buddha-l server stripped out the diacriticals, but I imagine that whoever would be concerned about them would be able to figure out what they are.) atmetyapi praj?apitamanatmetyapi desitam| buddhairnatma na canatma kascidityapi desitam Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu May 27 12:22:58 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 14:22:58 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Have more fun: deny nirvana, not rebirth [was Batchelor] References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> <4BFD5A89.90901@smith.edu><11A0F684-EAAA-423E-96A1-76C4E0FC078C@unm.edu><4BFEACD1.5040200@cola.iges.org> <00a401cafdc8$0a3e44e0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <00bc01cafdc9$a2333840$2101a8c0@Dan> With apologies to the buddha-l server, a glance in my "sent" folder" showed that the diacriticals were stripped before sending the message out -- which has never happened before. Tweaked a setting and trying again, as test. Apologies for repetition: atmetyapi praj?apitamanatmetyapi desitam| buddhairnatma na canatma kascidityapi desitam MMK 18.6 Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu May 27 12:29:55 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 14:29:55 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Have more fun: deny nirvana, not rebirth [was Batchelor] References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> <4BFD5A89.90901@smith.edu><11A0F684-EAAA-423E-96A1-76C4E0FC078C@unm.edu><4BFEACD1.5040200@cola.iges.org><00a401cafdc8$0a3e44e0$2101a8c0@Dan> <00bc01cafdc9$a2333840$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <00e701cafdca$9ace8f90$2101a8c0@Dan> Sorry -- one more test: atmetyapi praj?apitamanatmetyapi desitam| buddhairnatma na canatma kascidityapi desitam| Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu May 27 12:35:37 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 14:35:37 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Have more fun: deny nirvana, not rebirth [was Batchelor] References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> <4BFD5A89.90901@smith.edu><11A0F684-EAAA-423E-96A1-76C4E0FC078C@unm.edu><4BFEACD1.5040200@cola.iges.org><00a401cafdc8$0a3e44e0$2101a8c0@Dan><00bc01cafdc9$a2333840$2101a8c0@Dan> <00e701cafdca$9ace8f90$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <011b01cafdcb$66b38570$2101a8c0@Dan> Last try: atmetyapi praj?apitamanatmetyapi desitam| buddhairnatma na canatma kascidityapi desitam| Dan From rhayes at unm.edu Thu May 27 13:14:07 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 13:14:07 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Have more fun: deny nirvana, not rebirth [was Batchelor] In-Reply-To: <011b01cafdcb$66b38570$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> <4BFD5A89.90901@smith.edu> <11A0F684-EAAA-423E-96A1-76C4E0FC078C@unm.edu> <4BFEACD1.5040200@cola.iges.org><00a401cafdc8$0a3e44e0$2101a8c0@Dan> <00bc01cafdc9$a2333840$2101a8c0@Dan> <00e701cafdca$9ace8f90$2101a8c0@Dan> <011b01cafdcb$66b38570$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <1274987647.5056.7.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Thu, 2010-05-27 at 14:35 -0400, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > atmetyapi praj?apitamanatmetyapi desitam| > buddhairnatma na canatma kascidityapi desitam| Still no luck, eh? I'm sure terrorists must be behind this diacritical mischief. From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu May 27 13:22:59 2010 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 15:22:59 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Have more fun: deny nirvana, not rebirth [was Batchelor] References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl><2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX><31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX><357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> <4BFD5A89.90901@smith.edu><11A0F684-EAAA-423E-96A1-76C4E0FC078C@unm.edu><4BFEACD1.5040200@cola.iges.org><00a401cafdc8$0a3e44e0$2101a8c0@Dan><00bc01cafdc9$a2333840$2101a8c0@Dan><00e701cafdca$9ace8f90$2101a8c0@Dan><011b01cafdcb$66b38570$2101a8c0@Dan> <1274987647.5056.7.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <001001cafdd2$04f1dec0$2101a8c0@Dan> >> atmetyapi praj?apitamanatmetyapi desitam| >> buddhairnatma na canatma kascidityapi desitam| > > Still no luck, eh? I'm sure terrorists must be behind this diacritical > mischief. ?tmetyapi praj?apitaman?tmetyapi de?itam| buddhairn?tm? na c?n?tm? ka?cidityapi de?itam| From rhayes at unm.edu Thu May 27 13:36:20 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 13:36:20 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Have more fun: deny nirvana, not rebirth [was Batchelor] In-Reply-To: <001001cafdd2$04f1dec0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100516011930.024ecc98@wxs.nl> <4BF01365.5070903@xs4all.nl> <2FCABDEC03784E4D9FFDAF44E117BC79@OPTIPLEX> <31CC554A5833468EBA6C18BC308A6079@OPTIPLEX> <357EC6A1-6B34-4A59-BE03-29E2170CEDF2@unm.edu> <4BFD5A89.90901@smith.edu> <11A0F684-EAAA-423E-96A1-76C4E0FC078C@unm.edu> <4BFEACD1.5040200@cola.iges.org><00a401cafdc8$0a3e44e0$2101a8c0@Dan> <00bc01cafdc9$a2333840$2101a8c0@Dan><00e701cafdca$9ace8f90$2101a8c0@Dan> <011b01cafdcb$66b38570$2101a8c0@Dan> <1274987647.5056.7.camel@rhayes-desktop> <001001cafdd2$04f1dec0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <1274988980.6311.7.camel@rhayes-desktop> On Thu, 2010-05-27 at 15:22 -0400, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > ?tmetyapi praj?apitaman?tmetyapi de?itam| > buddhairn?tm? na c?n?tm? ka?cidityapi de?itam| Bravo! The forces of freedom-loving anal-retentive grammatologists have overcome the axis of diacritical evil. Can cleaning up the Gulf of Mexico be far behind? -- Richard From zelders.yh at wxs.nl Thu May 27 17:14:06 2010 From: zelders.yh at wxs.nl (Zelders.YH) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 01:14:06 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Batchelor (once more)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100527235104.02521348@wxs.nl> >HZ: >Joanna wrote : > >I ignore anything anyone says about existentialism. period. > >HZ: >Better to dump Batchelor's book then. >JK: That's silly. Sorry Joanna, I couldn't resist the temptation, so I asked Batchelor if he would object to being called a 'buddhist existentialist'. His answer : "Yes, please call me an Existentialist Buddhist or, if you prefer, a Buddhist Existentialist". (Now there's a dilemma.) >If Nyanavira (referred to by SB) was taking note of the >existentialists fashionable in his day, so what? I'll quote again : Batchelor shares Nyanavira's view that : "[.] the existentialist philosophers can provide a helpful bridge, especially to a modern reader puzzled by the jargon of Buddhism to understanding the relevance of Gotama's discourses in the Pali Canon to their own lives."(pp.144-5). I think that's clear enough and should not to be so easily dismissed by a "so what". >His [Nyanavira's] death made it all too clear that he was deeply >identified with the Theravada vinaya. Nyanavira apparently reasoned that, given his personal circumstances, and considering himself to be a stream-enterer, committing suicide wouldn't have bad karmic effects for him. But what's that got to do with the Theravada vinaya ? And why would it speak against N's serious interest in existentialist views ? >Nice thing about a book is that you are not in a position to discuss >with the author-- except maybe virtually on Boodle-L. Well, you can actually ask the author, and if he's Stephen Batchelor there's a fair chance that you'll receive a reply. I think Erik already took care of some other open questions. Herman From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Thu May 27 18:16:20 2010 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (wongwf) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 08:16:20 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] A very Happy Vesak to all In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20100527235104.02521348@wxs.nl> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100527235104.02521348@wxs.nl> Message-ID: <000d01cafdfa$ffdc7610$ff956230$@nus.edu.sg> May all beings be well and happy! And all the gloom and war go away soon. W.F. Wong From gouin.me at gmail.com Fri May 28 05:09:18 2010 From: gouin.me at gmail.com (Margaret Gouin) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:09:18 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: References: <4BFE6E6F.3010803@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 27 May 2010 15:46, Richard Hayes wrote: > > But seriously, folks (if I may quote Joe Walsh, composer of the > unforgettable lines "I can't complain, but sometimes I still do"), as I > gather around the water cooler with my academic friends to discuss the > latest round of budget cuts to the university library, I hear more and more > people voicing their disgust with academic publishers. More and more we find > that authors have to do their own copy editing, their own proofreading, and > even their own marketing for publishers that then sell academic books at > elevated prices. So many of my friends are saying "Why should I put my work > out through a publisher, when I could just produce my own pdf version and > put it on my website?" > At the BASR conference in September 2009, there was a panel on academic publishing with reps from three major publishing houses. Each of them gave a little presentation on why it was such a good idea to publish through them. It was almost comical to see the look on their faces when I then asked them what we needed them for, given that as Richard says the authors do most of the work these days. It boiled down to distribution, that was the only thing they could give in their favour: that they had huge distribution networks. But with the internet, and lists like these, what do we need their distribution networks for? The argument for the huge prices is that they have to sell the book at a high initial price 'in order to gauge demand'. Now this is plain nonsense. They sell the books at a huge price to try to recover their expenses from all the academic libraries that are going to rush to buy them--but are they? with academic budgets being slashed the way they are now? As I recall my economic theory, high price means low demand; low price may stimulate high demand. Or high price means everyone pirates your book from Gigapedia. Might as well self-publish through Lulu.com or something like that. For a ludicrously small fee you can get an ISBN which seems to guarantee that your book will be listed on Amazon worldwide--now there's a distribution network! In the interests of self-disclosure: yes, I'm getting a book published by a major academic publisher and yes, I'm grateful for the academic 'street cred' I'll get by being published by them. But given the amount of heartache I had to go through with the number of copy-editing and typesetting mistakes they made (two sets of page proofs--this is a major publisher in the field of Buddhism that can't typeset even a few Chinese characters? that doesn't even both to ask before 'correcting' all my Tibetan transliterations that I then had to correct back again? Sheesh...) I don't think I'd bother again. Not worth the effort. Margaret Independent researcher and academic kvetcher From pvera at health.usf.edu Fri May 28 07:21:57 2010 From: pvera at health.usf.edu (Vera, Pedro L.) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 09:21:57 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: References: <4BFE6E6F.3010803@gmail.com> , Message-ID: <1632EC2371DC6849B1A97EF0B28B970AAD3A6A65BC@MAILSERVER1.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu> >It was almost comical to see the look on their faces when I then asked them >what we needed them for, given that as Richard says the authors do most of >the work these days. It boiled down to distribution, that was the only thing >they could give in their favour: that they had huge distribution networks. >But with the internet, and lists like these, what do we need their >distribution networks for? Perhaps things are different in the humanities, but in the sciences, it's not only number of publications that count but also the reputation of the journal. In order to determine reputation, an index of "impact" has been calculated. The better the journal the higher the impact factor and thus the more prestigious to be accepted for publication. Of course, the definition becomes somewhat circular in that those journals with higher impact scores become "better" journals. Although the perception is changing, there is still a fair amount of bias towards publishing in open-access journals. These journals are still peer-reviewed, they just don't charge to view the contents. However, authors (or institutions) still pay a fee (sometimes considerable) to publish there. Publishing out of your desktop, then, would be considerably less than useless. So, one would guess that "peer-review" factor and the "impact" factor work against just using Latex to publish your results/book whatever, at least in science. As I see it, part of the problem rests with the institutional pressures to demonstrate productivity (and to document reputable productivity) that Richard alluded to earlier. I don't see either one of those pressures diminishing anytime soon, particularly peer-review. Which leads to what may be an entirely naive question, but is there peer-review in the humanities for journal articles or is it restricted to the sciences? I would there is some sort of review although it is hard to imagine (at least for me) how it would work. What does peer-review entail for philosophy or religion? Regards, Pedro From rhayes at unm.edu Fri May 28 09:05:15 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 09:05:15 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: <1632EC2371DC6849B1A97EF0B28B970AAD3A6A65BC@MAILSERVER1.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu> References: <4BFE6E6F.3010803@gmail.com> , <1632EC2371DC6849B1A97EF0B28B970AAD3A6A65BC@MAILSERVER1.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu> Message-ID: <847A9C1D-0B64-4494-A267-F17CA5D243D7@unm.edu> On May 28, 2010, at 7:21 AM, Vera, Pedro L. wrote: > Which leads to what may be an entirely naive question, but is there peer-review in the humanities for journal articles or is it restricted to the sciences? Philosophical journals are peer reviewed, and the more rigorous the reviewing process (double-lind reviews being the most rigorous), and the larger the percentage of articles rejected (some philosophical journals accept only 5% of submitted articles), the more merit the author gets in the eyes of the tenure and promotion committees. The most prestigious religious studies journals are also peer reviewed. In Buddhist studies, there are several on-line journals, such as Journal of Buddhist Ethics, that are available to anyone at no cost, that are peer reviewed. In the humanities reviewing can be whimsical and even a bit nasty at times. Years ago I submitted an article on Buddhism to a religious studies journal, and an anonymous reviewer wrote the comment that while the article was interesting enough, it would have been more interesting had it been on an entirely different topic. The editor accepted the article anyway. Twice I have been involved in assessing project proposals for the NEH and have been struck by how some people (a small minority) use anonymous reviews to promote their own prejudices. I recall a reviewer recommending that a project in Buddhist philosophy be rejected because there are already too many articles on Buddhist philosophy. I also recall a reviewer recommending rejection because a project looked like one that might be a commercial success, and the NEW ought to underwrite only projects that have no hope of making money in the commercial market. My father published a lot of articles and monographs on geology, and I can recall him commenting that even scientists can be petty in their reviews. Perhaps it is a feature of being human to hide behind anonymity to promote one's pet prejudices. Richard Hayes From pvera at health.usf.edu Fri May 28 10:12:45 2010 From: pvera at health.usf.edu (Vera, Pedro L.) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 12:12:45 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: <847A9C1D-0B64-4494-A267-F17CA5D243D7@unm.edu> References: <4BFE6E6F.3010803@gmail.com> , <1632EC2371DC6849B1A97EF0B28B970AAD3A6A65BC@MAILSERVER1.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu>, <847A9C1D-0B64-4494-A267-F17CA5D243D7@unm.edu> Message-ID: <1632EC2371DC6849B1A97EF0B28B970AAD3A6A65BE@MAILSERVER1.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu> ________________________________________ Richard Hayes wrote >In the humanities reviewing can be whimsical and even a bit nasty at times. I'm afraid that this is also the case in science, although I would change the tone to "downright" rather a bit. >Twice I have been involved in assessing project proposals for the NEH and have been struck by how some >people (a small minority) use anonymous reviews to promote their own prejudices. I agree, and I don't know how small such a minority may be. I think that the tighter the funding, the nastier the anonymous reviews get since everyone is fighting for the same limited resources (sort of a Malthusian problem, really). >My father published a lot of articles and monographs on geology, and I can recall him commenting that even >scientists can be petty in their reviews. Perhaps it is a feature of being human to hide behind anonymity to >promote one's pet prejudices. Some (very few) open-access journals in science use a signed reviews format which does tend to temper the nature of the comments somewhat. I think it would be ideal to have ALL reviews (whether for publication or for proposals) completely transparent to the actual individual reviewers. However, I think it's unlikely to happen since it would probably be argued that it would hinder frank and honest discussions. I recall reading recently something the Dalai Lama said about being grateful for people who insult us or injure us since we can then actually practice compassion, patience and forbearance. In that sense then, the blinded review system appears invaluable! (this is the required Buddhist content of post, by the way). Regards, Pedro _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From alberto.tod at gmail.com Fri May 28 12:42:35 2010 From: alberto.tod at gmail.com (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 14:42:35 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C000E9B.7060709@gmail.com> Margaret wrote: > At the BASR conference in September 2009, there was a panel on > academic publishing with reps from three major publishing houses. I suspect that they are no worse or better than your average corporation, employing plenty of honest, hard-working, nice people and probably a few too many lawyers and MBAs. Then something magical happens: as a group, they behave like vampire squids (aka Vampyroteuthis infernalis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vampyroteuthis_infernalis_arms.jpg). Best, Alberto Todeschini From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri May 28 12:46:27 2010 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 20:46:27 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: <847A9C1D-0B64-4494-A267-F17CA5D243D7@unm.edu> References: <4BFE6E6F.3010803@gmail.com> , <1632EC2371DC6849B1A97EF0B28B970AAD3A6A65BC@MAILSERVER1.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu> <847A9C1D-0B64-4494-A267-F17CA5D243D7@unm.edu> Message-ID: <4C000F83.9030408@xs4all.nl> Op 28-05-10 17:05, Richard Hayes schreef: > On May 28, 2010, at 7:21 AM, Vera, Pedro L. wrote: > > >> Which leads to what may be an entirely naive question, but is there peer-review in the humanities for journal articles or is it restricted to the sciences? >> > Philosophical journals are peer reviewed, and the more rigorous the reviewing process (double-lind reviews being the most rigorous), and the larger the percentage of articles rejected (some philosophical journals accept only 5% of submitted articles), the more merit the author gets in the eyes of the tenure and promotion committees. The most prestigious religious studies journals are also peer reviewed. In Buddhist studies, there are several on-line journals, such as Journal of Buddhist Ethics, that are available to anyone at no cost, that are peer reviewed. > > In the humanities reviewing can be whimsical and even a bit nasty at times. Years ago I submitted an article on Buddhism to a religious studies journal, and an anonymous reviewer wrote the comment that while the article was interesting enough, it would have been more interesting had it been on an entirely different topic. The editor accepted the article anyway. > > Twice I have been involved in assessing project proposals for the NEH and have been struck by how some people (a small minority) use anonymous reviews to promote their own prejudices. I recall a reviewer recommending that a project in Buddhist philosophy be rejected because there are already too many articles on Buddhist philosophy. I also recall a reviewer recommending rejection because a project looked like one that might be a commercial success, and the NEW ought to underwrite only projects that have no hope of making money in the commercial market. > It's a difficult problem among others caused by the enormous stress to publish as much as possible asap. The result is a lot of words and in particular words that are fashionable. I sometimes translate the philojabber in plain language to have a good laugh. And then again it happens that even in reviewed pieces the difference between transcendent and transentental remains a mystery. BTW I cannot keep silent on this: the Tea Party goes global: see http://www.dutchteaparty.nl/ erik From gouin.me at gmail.com Sat May 29 00:30:30 2010 From: gouin.me at gmail.com (Margaret Gouin) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 08:30:30 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: <4C000F83.9030408@xs4all.nl> References: <4BFE6E6F.3010803@gmail.com> <1632EC2371DC6849B1A97EF0B28B970AAD3A6A65BC@MAILSERVER1.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu> <847A9C1D-0B64-4494-A267-F17CA5D243D7@unm.edu> <4C000F83.9030408@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: It's pretty clear that the way scientific journals operate and the way humanities journals operate differs in at least some respects; but I don't quite see why the fact that 'it's always been that way' for either type of journal means that we're stuck with it for all time. Online journals such as JBE and JGB show that it can be different. Unfortunately the tenure trap promotes inertia in this area, I guess. Another thing that disturbed me in the panel I mentioned (which only dealt with humanities) was that it was reported without even the slightest hint of concern that some journals have huge backlogs of approved articles awaiting publication. The worst offender had NINE YEARS' WORTH of articles awaiting publication. This is simply ridiculous and I can't imagine why anyone is seriously still submitting to that journal, except for the fact that it's very prestigious. But what's the point? Your prestige is nine years down the road. I've just started the process of trying to pull an article from a publication (very prestigious) that is already three years late in appearing because I'd rather get the article out there than wait (indefinitely) for it to appear (maybe) in a big multivolume collection (which will be so expensive that I anticipate very few people or even libraries will buy it). Margaret From lemmett at talk21.com Mon May 31 10:09:45 2010 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 16:09:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] In-Reply-To: <81AB12BE9537431EAB3B9F903F0F14D2@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <333753.10692.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Is there anything that is more concerned with east asian emptiness? There's Chih-I's classification but there's nothing I have that really explains them, though they do seem like pretty good rhetoric. I can't place e.g. the neither emptiness nor existence in context of any sutra etc. I've read, without guessing anyway. I was thinking maybe it means that ultimately conditioned existence is empty of imputational emptiness - that the locus of imputational emptiness is names and characters not existence? Also can the list confirm that absolutely no dharma can be eternal from any perspective: that we can have no evidence for the immutability of any experience? I imagine you see what I'm trying to get at - that passing away involves betting stuck in some moment and not what Tom Clarke has called a "negative emptiness". He draws from an older article that refutes some of its contemporary existentialists who apparently try to establish what death is like for the dead. That seems very relevant to what I am trying to get at but I am not sure that I want to say, necessarily that such a thing can be established or even that there is something it is like to be dead. The former seems a little hopeful and is obviously not the concern of buddhas whereas the latter is, for lots of people, sheer nonsense. Thanks for any guidance.Luke --- On Tue, 25/5/10, JKirkpatrick wrote: From: JKirkpatrick Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] To: "'Buddhist discussion forum'" Date: Tuesday, 25 May, 2010, 3:48 On the 2 truths, you might consider getting? Sonam Thakchoe's book, The Two Truths Debate. Jay Garfield wrote the Foreward. Wisdom Pubs., 2007. Best, Joanna From rhayes at unm.edu Mon May 31 15:16:28 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 15:16:28 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] In-Reply-To: <333753.10692.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <333753.10692.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <881094D8-59D1-42F1-A785-C8D27B41B95E@unm.edu> On May 31, 2010, at 10:09 AM, lemmett at talk21.com wrote: > Also can the list confirm that absolutely no dharma can be eternal from any perspective: that we can have no evidence for the immutability of any experience? If you'd like, I'll affirm that. Of course, if you'd prefer that I deny it, I'd be equally happy to do that. Here at buddha-l we aim to please. > I imagine you see what I'm trying to get at - that passing away involves betting stuck in some moment and not what Tom Clarke has called a "negative emptiness". Buddhists tend not to bet. The problem with betting is that one might get eternally stuck betting in some moment, which involves betting stuck in that moment. If the wife finds out, there'll be hell to pay. Richard From lemmett at talk21.com Mon May 31 17:31:54 2010 From: lemmett at talk21.com (lemmett at talk21.com) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 23:31:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] Message-ID: <312538.43427.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Well I asked some analytic philosophers about this and suddenly they weren't so interested in talking. It seems really relevant to dying and not at all the sort of thing that couldn't be guessed at. Is there no conceivable alternative to the tetralemma or just no alternative at all? If the latter I just don't understand - unless I accept that there is no tathagata that dies... >> Also can the list confirm that absolutely no dharma can be eternal from any perspective: that we can have no evidence for the immutability of any experience? >If you'd like, I'll affirm that. Of course, if you'd prefer that I deny it, I'd be equally happy to do that. Here at buddha-l we aim to please. From rhayes at unm.edu Mon May 31 18:32:41 2010 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 18:32:41 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] In-Reply-To: <312538.43427.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <312538.43427.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On May 31, 2010, at 17:31, "lemmett at talk21.com" wrote: > Well I asked some analytic philosophers about this and suddenly they > weren't so interested in talking. Which analytic philosophers did you ask? And what question did you ask them? > Is there no conceivable alternative to the tetralemma or just no > alternative at all? According to Nagarjuna, the four alternatives cover all possible answers that can be given to a question. > If the latter I just don't understand So tell me in what ways your life would be improved if you did understand. > unless I accept that there is no tathagata that dies... Perhaps there is no tathagata. So how can something that does not exist die? Think of presuppositional failure. It may help take some of the mystery out of the enigma. Remember this: Buddhism is incompatible with mystery. If you find this mysterious, you're not yet thinking as a Buddhist. not Richard nor non-Richard nor both nor neither From rbzeuschner at roadrunner.com Mon May 31 18:51:45 2010 From: rbzeuschner at roadrunner.com (Bob Zeuschner) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 17:51:45 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Emptiness and not being able to imagine dying [confused] In-Reply-To: <312538.43427.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <312538.43427.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C0459A1.1060902@roadrunner.com> Hi -- I guess I'm not clear about what you are asking. To the best of my knowledge the majority of Buddhists deny that any experience is immutable. Are you asking about what the earliest Buddhist texts say about dying, or impermanence. Are you asking about what the Sarvastivadins wrote, or the Theravadins wrote? Are you asking if dharmas possess svabhava (self-existence)? Are you asking about Nagarjuna's perspective? Are you asking about the Lotus Sutra's perspective? Or perhaps that of Chau-chou or Lin-chi? I can tell that these issues are important to you, but I really am not clear what you want to know. Bob On 5/31/2010 4:31 PM, lemmett at talk21.com wrote: > Well I asked some analytic philosophers about this and suddenly they weren't so interested in talking. It seems really relevant to dying and not at all the sort of thing that couldn't be guessed at. > Is there no conceivable alternative to the tetralemma or just no alternative at all? If the latter I just don't understand - unless I accept that there is no tathagata that dies... > >>> Also can the list confirm that absolutely no dharma can be eternal from any perspective: that we can have no > evidence for the immutability of any experience? > From drbob at comcast.net Mon May 31 23:23:38 2010 From: drbob at comcast.net (Bob Woolery) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 22:23:38 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conservative and liberal Buddhists In-Reply-To: <24FA2BB4-4AA2-4B57-B8E1-58F8ACFB05D9@unm.edu> References: <24FA2BB4-4AA2-4B57-B8E1-58F8ACFB05D9@unm.edu> Message-ID: Your line: It doesn't really matter anyway. So let's change the subject. Never have I seen this suggestion provoke such a wave of response! Bob Woolery, DC 326 deAnza dr Vallejo, CA 94589 www.stateoftheartchiro.com (707)557 5471