[Buddha-l] Dharmapala

[andy]

In a somewhat slower response to Dan:

On Friday 16 July 2010 07:50:40 pm Dan Lusthaus wrote:
> In quick response to Andy:
> 
> I wrote:
> >> This is the Pali prototype of a guardian of the Dharma (albeit a gnomish
> >> sprite) threatening to make good on Buddha's own death threat (heads
> >> split
> >> into seven parts usually result in more permanent injuries than
> >> headaches).
> >> He is not bluffing -- unless Saccaka speaks up on being asked a third
> >> time,
> >> he will smite him. The death threat is real. Saccaka realizes that, and
> >>  that realization results in Saccaka taking refuge, i.e., converting to
> >> Buddhism -- forced conversion of a sort.
> 
> To which Andy replied:
> > [...] I don't think a charge of inconsistency is an actual death threat,
> > although it can be devastating in a debate.
> 
> It is pretty clear both in the Digha Nikaya version and the Majjhima Nikaya
> smashing someone's head asunder into seven pieces with a flaming iron club
> constitutes a mortal challenge to the clubee's noggin.

Dan, do I have to split your head into seven pieces to get you to see that 
this is a figurative threat?  I will use my flaming club of Unobtainium, if 
that is any consolation.  
> 
> > And I don't see any sign of a
> > "forced conversion."
> 
> In both versions it says:
> 
> "The Lord saw Vajirapāṇī, and so did Ambaṭṭha (or Saccaka). And at the
> sight, Ambaṭṭha was terrified and unnerved, his hairs stood on end, and he
> sought protection, shelter and safety from the Lord." [Hare's tr.]
> 
> The key formula is rendered thus by Nanamoli and Bodhi in their rendering
>  of the parallel M passage: "Seeking his shelter, asylum, and refuge in the
>  Blessed One, ..."
> 
> This taking "refuge in the Buddha" is the equivalent of conversion, darn
> close to the standard formula (perhaps Lance has a different view of this).
> 
> Dan
> 
I would respond (and of course, I am not buddha, or even the slightest 
enlightened) that the refuge is not from the threat of violence by Vajrapani, 
but from the wrong views the protagonist held in the first place.  Maybe even 
refuge from engaging random recluses in debate just to display one's 
rhetorical skill.   We have to take this sutta as a whole. It is not an 
example of forced conversion. 

-- 
James Andy Stroble, PhD
Lecturer in Philosophy
Department of Arts & Humanities
Leeward Community College
University of Hawaii

Adjunct Faculty 
Diplomatic and Military Studies
Hawaii Pacific University 

_________________

"The amount of violence at the disposal of any given country may soon not be a 
reliable indication of the country's strength or a reliable guarantee against 
destruction by a substantially smaller and weaker power."  --Hannah Arendt