[Buddha-l] Non-arising

[M.B. Schiekel]

Am 23.02.2010 20:05, schrieb Dan Lusthaus:
> 
> Online English versions of :
> 
> (Ireland)
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.irel.html
> (Thanissaro)
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html
> 
> of the Māluṅkyaputta
> (Thanissaro)
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.095.than.html
> (Walsh)
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.095.wlsh.html
> 
> (Maybe Lance would like to weigh in with a parsing of this very interesting 
> passage.)
> 
> Note that while the Māluṅkyaputtasutta in S. merges the two formulas without 
> assigning them separate iti-s, the Udana version clearly does so. So the 
> question remains, does this splicing result in a coherent product? I don't 
> think so. Arguments (or evidence) from authority merely gainsay authority, 
> not coherence.
> 
>> 4.
>>> There is nothing coherent in a doctrinal system grounded on causal
>>> analysis that suddenly argues, without coherent argument, that
>>> nothing arises or ceases.
>> As far as my own meditation experience is concerned, I can confirm the
>> existence of states of consciousness, where there is no more perception
>> of time,
> 
> The question is: Are these "states" *caused* by meditation? If so, then to 
> talk about them as non-causal is both misleading and dishonest, since they 
> have a cause. If they are not caused by meditation, then "when, where," etc. 
> do you have such experiences? Were you "timeless" before or after 3 p.m.? 4 
> p.m.? How many years ago?
> 
> Description is judged by accuracy, not necessarily coherence, since an 
> inaccurate description can still appear coherent (e.g., mistaking soldiers 
> on horseback for centaurs--which might seem coherent as long as one lacks 
> rudimentary knowledge of the biological sciences).
> 
> Dan 
> 
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Dear Dan,

thank you for your interesting answer and your remarks to the Bahiya
Sutta. And a special thank to Alex, who started this discussion!

1. 'anupattika-dharma-kṣānti:
if I subsume the arguments about this point, I think the following would
not be completely wrong:
'stability and patience resulting from an experience of the non-arising'.

2.
> Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
>     There the stars do not shine,
>         the sun is not visible,
>         the moon does not appear,
>         darkness is not found.
> ...
> Note the inclusion of "darkness is not found." Important.

Why ist this point important for you?
I understand this just as a description of an 'experience' of the
non-arising.

3.
> "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the
> seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only
> the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference
> to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train
> yourself."
>
> [but notice how, in the Pali, Buddha is actually quoting himself, by
> the placement of the iti]

Why do you stress this 'iti' - I cannot see the difference?

4.
> The question is: Are these "states" *caused* by meditation? If so,
> then to talk about them as non-causal is both misleading and
> dishonest, since they have a cause. If they are not caused by
> meditation, then "when, where," etc. do you have such experiences?
> Were you "timeless" before or after 3 p.m.? 4 p.m.? How many years
> ago?

Well - cute.
Might be Buddha would have answered to you: 'I will not tell you' :-)
My background is that of a theoretical physicist and a longyears
buddhist practioner. So if you come up with 'causes' and Nagarjuna, I
would say: does not apply.

(Btw. from a modern mathematical viewpoint Nagarjunas logic is full of
errors - but I will not discuss this here - so forget this statement.) ;-))

For example 'cause & effect':
this concept in its traditional simple form is not an adequate
description of experiences of this world. There are 'classical cause &
effect' (deterministic), 'deterministic chaos' (in complex nonlinear
systems, for example in our brains - results are unpredictable and
uncontrollable), nondeterministic effects (but following stochastic
laws, in the quantum world, ...).
So these meditation experiences I'm talking about are 'non-causal' in
that sense, that you cannot control these experiences, but they are
causal in that sense, that they have a base (a cause) in our brains.
And the experience of 'no-time', while an external clock is running on,
is only for philosophers an annoyance :-)
The practioner experiences this 'is & is not', and he/she is happy.


With best wishes,
bernhard


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