From jkirk at spro.net Sun Mar 1 10:04:16 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 10:04:16 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Professur in Buddhist Studies Message-ID: X-posted. OK Buddhoids----here is a golden op. for a scholar of Buddhism....requires classical Chinese-- just thought to let you know....... Cheers, Joanna -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Axel Michaels Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 9:48 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Professur in Buddhist Studies k?nnten Sie sich vorstellen f?r unsere Profess Liebe Frau Kellner, k?nnten Sie sich vorstellen f?r unsere Professur in Buddhist Studies im Rahmen des Exzellenzclusters "Asia and Europe in a Global Context" zu erw?rmen? Vielleicht haben Sie davon geh?rt. Urspr?nglich war sie ausgeschrieben mit einem Fokus auf Ostasien, doch hat sich dies jetzt ge?ndert, denn wir suchen nun auch nach KandidatInnen, die vom Indischen Buddhismus (Sanskrit, Pali) kommen. Es versteht sich, da? wir wir dabei auch an Sie denken. Hier die urspr?ngliche Ausschreibung: Professorship in Buddhist Studies The dispersion of Buddhism offers one of the richest historical archives of a transcultural flow in human history and can serve as an important testing ground for theories about the relationship between power projection and cultural flows. A Professorship in Buddhist Studies will be established. It will deal with the different aspects of the transcultural flow of Buddhism in history and modern times; will bring together scholars with a South Asian, an East Asian and a Western focus in this common endeavor; will cooperate in the development of the databases on translingual concepts and transcultural images; and will contribute to the development of teaching programs with a transcultural focus. Qualifications include a strong record of scholarly publications in Buddhist Studies; the proven capacity to handle original sources in at least two of the major Buddhist languages including Classical Chinese; a strong record in Chinese intellectual history; and a visible commitment to cross-disciplinary and transcultural studies. The position will come with a joint appointment at the Centre for East Asian Studies with institutional links to the South Asia Institute, Religious Studies, and Philosophy. Weitere Informationen zum Cluster finden Sie auf unserer Homepage: http://www.vjc.uni-hd.de/ Die Professur ist eine volle (W3-)Professur auf Lebenszeit. Sie w?re w?hrend der Laufzeit des Clusters dort angesiedelt, danach in Ihrem Fall vermutlich am S?dasien-Institut oder dem Zentrum f?r Ostasienwissenschaften. Falls Sie Interesse haben, w?rden wir Sie gerne zu einem Vortrag im April/Mai einladen. Wir k?nnen aber gerne vorher auch noch einmal telefonieren. Ich bin jederzeit bereit, Ihnen bei eventuellen Fragen zu helfen. Bitte z?gern Sie nicht, mich zu kontaktieren. Mit besten Gr??en und W?nschen Ihr Axel Michaels Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels (Speaker of the Collaborative Research Center (SFB) 619 "Dynamics of Ritual"; Co-Director of the Cluster of Excellence "Asia and Europe"), University of Heidelberg, South Asia Institute, Im Neuenheimer Feld 330, D-69120 Heidelberg, Tel. +49-6221-548917 / Fax +49-6221-546338, http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/index.html, http://www.ritualdynamik.uni-hd.de, http://vjc.uni-hd.de, Axel.Michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de From jkirk at spro.net Sun Mar 1 10:05:23 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 10:05:23 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] List moderator--please don't post what I just sent--I just saw this Message-ID: <09FED251769B437B952122295F8B6F19@OPTIPLEX> -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Axel Michaels Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 9:51 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: AW: Professur in Buddhist Studies I am deeply sorry to have sent a private mail to the Dear colleagues, I am deeply sorry to have sent a private mail to the list. Please ignore it. Axel Michaels From james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu Mon Mar 2 10:25:13 2009 From: james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu (Blumenthal, James) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:25:13 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Schopen lauded References: Message-ID: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E081F3636@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> The author of the article, Ajay Singh, makes an intentionally provocative and arrogant, yet misguided claim. He says, "Schopen probably knows more about classical Buddhism than the entire line of reincarnated Dalai Lamas." Schopen is a historian; the Dalai Lamas are/were not. They are/were masters of their particular traditions/lineages. Thus the claim is like comparing apples and oranges (not to mention that it may or may not be a true statement). Shall we disregard Schopen's historical work because he presumably does not hold a candle to the Dalai Lamas in terms of progress towards or achievement of enlightenment? Obviously I do not have any knowledge about Schopen's religious inclinations or mental states and do not presume to comment on them in my analogy. I am only attempting to make a point about their irrelevance for evaluating his historical work, much like the comparison with the Dalai Lamas that the author makes. Singh's statement is a good example of the type of academic arrogance that is so offensive to traditions (and the general public) and renders the academicians all but irrelevant to communities most inclined to find their work interesting and potentially useful. Why somebody would insert such a claim into an article about academic Buddhist scholarship is bewildering to me. Jim Blumenthal James Blumenthal Department of Philosophy Oregon State University 102-A Hovland Hall Corvallis, OR 97331 From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Mar 2 11:50:59 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 11:50:59 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Schopen lauded In-Reply-To: f59077cc0902280044y2687adb6xfcf1f9cd77275522@mail.gmail.com Message-ID: <1236019859.9364.9.camel@rhayes-desktop> Franz Metcalf wrote: > But I was truly SHOCKED to read that Gregory Schopen has NEVER > BEEN TO INDIA. Get ready for another shock. I have been to India only once and that was for only two weeks, and I spent the whole time at a retreat centre. And yet I saw enough of India to know that I never want to go back. But then, unlike Schopen, I do care what people think, and I don't much care at all what they actually do, so it's perhaps less surprising that a philosopher would never leave his armchair than that a cultural historian like Schopen would be content to stay mostly in the library. Schopen and I were in a class together about thirty-five years ago. It was a course in introductory Tibetan. I was SHOCKED to notice that Schopen's pronunciation of Sanskrit was abominable AND THAT HE DIDN'T EVEN CARE!!!!! Schopen and I disagreed on just about everything it is possible to disagree about, but especially we disagreed on the value of philosophy. I have never met anyone with more contempt for philosophy than he. He has probably never met anyone with more indifference to history and reality than I. Our teacher, Shoryu Katsura, was amazed at (and disgusted by) how much Schopen and I disagreed with each other. Despite, or more probably because of, our constant disagreements, Schopen and I became friends. He went on to become a great scholar. I went on to stay who I am. Richard From gary.gach at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 12:52:27 2009 From: gary.gach at gmail.com (Gary Gach) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:52:27 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism in groves of academe Message-ID: <598baadd0903021152v5f020798mfafd0bf13be4dae0@mail.gmail.com> Someone has commissioned some writing from my pencil, for which I'd like to open up some research matters to this group. My basic question is as to the quantity and quality of courses in academia (anywhere on the planet) studying studying* contemporary literature* influenced by Buddhism. How many classes might there be? 25? 150? ?200? How much and what kind of influence might they have? (Abstruse? Marginal? Subliminal? Ineluctable? Ambrosial?) This topical spectrum would encompass the BuddhaDharma and ... the American Transcendentalists ... the Imagists, Fenollosa's* Chinese Written Character as a Medium for Poetry, *Eliot's* Four Quartets, *Kenneth Rexroth* ... *the Beats and neoBeats ... Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, Gary Snyder, Bob Kaufman, Albert Saijo, Joanne Kyger, Anne Waldman, John Giorno ... Kenji Mayazawa, Charles Johnson, Antler, Laurie Anderson, Leonard Cohen. Bash*?.*Is Natalie Goldberg's "wild mind writing" taught in college? Widely? ? And, to contextualize all this, approximately how many classes are there these days in academia given to Buddhist studies, per se? The same as the "buddhist literature" classes? more? 200? 400? What are some high points, as well as low? Many thanks. Palms Joined _/|\_ Gary Gach *Riches of a Different Market* http://www.tricycle.com/web-exclusive/riches-a-different-market blog: http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/where-buddha-meets-freud From jkirk at spro.net Mon Mar 2 15:23:38 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 15:23:38 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Assoc. for Asian Studies--changes Message-ID: <44D5177395144699BF33FEDE96B81A01@OPTIPLEX> I just rejoined the AAS, having seen that it's in a way under new management, with a promised expanded emphasis on the South and Southeast Asian areas. A few years ago, I'd decided to give up my membership because of the heavy emphasis, in both their journal and conference that had been ongoing for a few decades, on China and Japan, with much less attention given to other parts of Asia. Moreover, articles could not be illustrated. Even better, the new President is Robert Buswell, whose presidential address is titled, "Korean Buddhist Journeys to Lands Worldly and Otherworldly." The program cover of the forthcoming annual conference in Chicago, on March 26--29, has a beautiful color photo of Songgwangsa (Piney Expanse Monastery) in the Republic of Korea. The _Journal of Asian Studies_ now publishes articles with both color and b&w illustrations. All heartening changes to a by now somewhat venerable organization. Looking over the many book ads, I note that one of our former (or still?) list members, Angela Sumegi, has a book out with SUNY Press, _Dreamworlds of Shamanism and Tibetan Buddhism : The Third Place_. Sounds like a must-read, to me. Also noticed in the ads: _Eminent Nuns : Women Chan Masters of Seventheenth-Century China_, by Beata Grant, and _Bodhisattvas of the Forest and the Formation of the Mahayana. A study of the Rastrapalapariprccha-sutra_, by Daniel Boucher; both by U Hawaii Press. And much more. Joanna From andrew.scott at westnet.com.au Mon Mar 2 17:17:00 2009 From: andrew.scott at westnet.com.au (Andrew Scott) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 09:17:00 +0900 (WST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1768679743.717851236039420165.JavaMail.root@zim-store04.web.westnet.com.au> Forgive me, but is any form of academic study of Buddhism of any use at all to people who want to become arahants? I am asking not to provoke but to find out what you all think. Thanks. From shian at kmspks.org Mon Mar 2 19:35:14 2009 From: shian at kmspks.org ([DPD CDT] Shen Shi'an) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:35:14 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Infinite Life Sutra In-Reply-To: <924a55af756ab00187ec6b88e20eb233af41b3ca@localhost> References: <924a55af756ab00187ec6b88e20eb233af41b3ca@localhost> Message-ID: Hi Buddha-Lers, Does anyone know any details on the controversies between the two most currently popular Chinese versions of the Infinite Life Sutra? The one that seems favoured by scholars is as translated by Samghavarman (??/???z: circa 252). E.g.: http://www12.canvas.ne.jp/horai/larger-sutra-1.htm (in English). The other one that is most prevalently distributed free these days is as compiled by a layman called Xia Lianju (??????: 1884-1965), from 5 different Chinese translations. (There's no 'approved' English translation of it yet.) I understand that there are 2 camps right now supporting the respective translations, and that there is much 'argument' as to which is more authentic. On an not so scholarly note(?), when there are a few extant versions of a sutra available, is it better to synthesise them into one for convenience for use by devotees (e.g for chanting)? Will this tend to increase the possibility of consolidating mistakes or accurate points? If there is no compilation done, devotees might miss important points in other translations? So it seems, for practical usage, both compiling and not compiling have their pros and cons. Thanks in advance :-] Amituofo, shi'an __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3902 (20090302) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. Email message - is OK Email message - is OK http://www.eset.com From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Mon Mar 2 20:38:00 2009 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 11:38:00 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Schopen lauded In-Reply-To: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E081F3636@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> References: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E081F3636@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> Message-ID: <28265EB2AD994D78AE4AB5D85AF75F70@comp.nus.edu.sg> In Chinese Mahayana, one clear sign of the Dharma-Ending Period is when the laity rises above the monastics. W. F. Wong > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Blumenthal, James > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 1:25 AM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Schopen lauded > > The author of the article, Ajay Singh, makes an intentionally provocative > and arrogant, yet misguided claim. He says, > > "Schopen probably knows more about classical Buddhism than the entire line > of reincarnated Dalai Lamas." > > Schopen is a historian; the Dalai Lamas are/were not. They are/were > masters of their particular traditions/lineages. Thus the claim is like > comparing apples and oranges (not to mention that it may or may not be a > true statement). Shall we disregard Schopen's historical work because he > presumably does not hold a candle to the Dalai Lamas in terms of progress > towards or achievement of enlightenment? Obviously I do not have any > knowledge about Schopen's religious inclinations or mental states and do > not presume to comment on them in my analogy. I am only attempting to > make a point about their irrelevance for evaluating his historical work, > much like the comparison with the Dalai Lamas that the author makes. > > Singh's statement is a good example of the type of academic arrogance > that is so offensive to traditions (and the general public) and renders > the academicians all but irrelevant to communities most inclined to find > their work interesting and potentially useful. Why somebody would insert > such a claim into an article about academic Buddhist scholarship is > bewildering to me. > > Jim Blumenthal > > > James Blumenthal > Department of Philosophy > Oregon State University > 102-A Hovland Hall > Corvallis, OR 97331 > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From dharmafarer at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 20:49:26 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 11:49:26 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Schopen lauded In-Reply-To: <28265EB2AD994D78AE4AB5D85AF75F70@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E081F3636@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <28265EB2AD994D78AE4AB5D85AF75F70@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: Weng Fai, Your citation please. I wonder if the Mahayana monks themselves made such assertions? What about when the monastics behave more like the laity? We have monasteries with loads of expensive electronics, gyms, badminton hall, cars, etc. Nattier in "the Dharma-ending Age" says something like it is a kind of "skillful means" to rally up support for the religion,a kind of alarmist eschatological ploy to make people more religious. A sort of doomsday cult. Some non-Mahayana Buddhists take Dharma-ending on a personal level rather than a social level. Piya On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > In Chinese Mahayana, one clear sign of the Dharma-Ending Period is when the > laity rises above the monastics. > > W. F. Wong > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- >> bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Blumenthal, James >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 1:25 AM >> To: Buddhist discussion forum >> Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Schopen lauded >> >> The author of the article, Ajay Singh, makes an intentionally provocative >> and arrogant, yet misguided claim. ?He says, >> >> "Schopen probably knows more about classical Buddhism than the entire line >> of reincarnated Dalai Lamas." >> >> ?Schopen is a historian; the Dalai Lamas are/were not. ?They are/were >> masters of their particular traditions/lineages. ?Thus the claim is like >> comparing apples and oranges (not to mention that it may or may not be a >> true statement). Shall we disregard Schopen's historical work because he >> presumably does not hold a candle to the Dalai Lamas in terms of progress >> towards or achievement of enlightenment? ?Obviously I do not have any >> knowledge about Schopen's religious inclinations or mental states and do >> not presume to comment on them in my analogy. ?I am only attempting to >> make a point about their irrelevance for evaluating his historical work, >> much like the comparison with the Dalai Lamas that the author makes. >> >> ?Singh's statement is a good example of the type of academic arrogance >> that is so offensive to traditions (and the general public) and renders >> the academicians all but irrelevant to communities most inclined to find >> their work interesting and potentially useful. ?Why somebody would insert >> such a claim into an article about academic Buddhist scholarship is >> bewildering to me. >> >> Jim Blumenthal >> >> >> James Blumenthal >> Department of Philosophy >> Oregon State University >> 102-A Hovland Hall >> Corvallis, OR 97331 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Mon Mar 2 21:00:17 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 20:00:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? Message-ID: <893956.49336.qm@web54603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Andrew Scott wrote: "Forgive me, but is any form of academic study of Buddhism of any use at all to people who want to become arahants? I am asking not to provoke but to find out what you all think. Thanks." ------------------------------ Hi, Andrew ? We had this discussion about scholars-and-practioners back in 2007 and if I remember correctly, again in 2008.? Maybe you can save the archives to disk and then do a word search and keep the threads that interest you.??(If you can't find the threads for those discussions, contact me off-list--I think I might have saved some.) ? The current issue of *Journal of Global Buddhism* has?some interesting articles on this topic.? The issue itself is titled?*Buddhists and Scholars of Buddhism: Blurred Distinctions in Contemporary Buddhist Studies.*??Franz Metcalf, a member of this list, is the Book Review Editor for the journal.? ? To download the articles in PDF, click on "print," then let the articles load before saving them. ? http://www.globalbuddhism.org/toc.html ? Best wishes, Katherine Masis From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Mon Mar 2 21:22:09 2009 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 12:22:09 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Schopen lauded In-Reply-To: References: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E081F3636@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu><28265EB2AD994D78AE4AB5D85AF75F70@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: "Fa Yuan Zhu Lin" (T53 No. 2122 Fascicle 98, p. 1005) cites a certain "Great Sutra of Five Disasters" - I failed to locate this in the Taisho but it is crossed listed in some of the catalogues found in the Taisho): "According to the Great Sutra of Five Disasters, there are five chaos (luan) during the End of Dharma times: 1. Bhiksus learn the Dharma from householders (bai yi - "white clothed ones"). This is first chaos. 2. Householders are seated above and the bhiksus below (them). This is the second chaos. 3. Bhiksus do not practice what they preach while householders think what they teach is supreme. This is the third chaos. 4. Maras appear in the world as bhiksus and the world take what they preach as the true Dharma. The Buddha-Dharma is no longer clear to the world and all sorts of lies and falsehood are held as beliefs. This is the fourth chaos. 5. Bhiksus have wives and servants, earns a livelihood and do not keep the precepts, making them no different from householders. This is fifth chaos." Sounds reasonable to me. W.F. Wong > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Piya Tan > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:49 AM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Schopen lauded > > Weng Fai, > > Your citation please. > From stroble at hawaii.edu Mon Mar 2 21:34:21 2009 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (andy) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:34:21 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Schopen lauded In-Reply-To: <4192_1236019905_49AC2AC0_4192_89851_5_1236019859.9364.9.camel@rhayes-desktop> References: <4192_1236019905_49AC2AC0_4192_89851_5_1236019859.9364.9.camel@rhayes-desktop> Message-ID: <200903021834.22202.stroble@hawaii.edu> On Monday 02 March 2009 08:50:59 Richard P. Hayes wrote: > Franz Metcalf wrote: > > But I was truly SHOCKED to read that Gregory Schopen has NEVER > > BEEN TO INDIA. > > Get ready for another shock. I have been to India only once and that was > for only two weeks, and I spent the whole time at a retreat centre. And > yet I saw enough of India to know that I never want to go back. > Schopen and I were in a class together about thirty-five years ago. It > was a course in introductory Tibetan. I was SHOCKED to notice that > Schopen's pronunciation of Sanskrit was abominable AND THAT HE DIDN'T > EVEN CARE!!!!! Schopen and I disagreed on just about everything it is > possible to disagree about, but especially we disagreed on the value of > philosophy. I have never met anyone with more contempt for philosophy > than he. He has probably never met anyone with more indifference to > history and reality than I. Our teacher, Shoryu Katsura, was amazed at > (and disgusted by) how much Schopen and I disagreed with each other. > Despite, or more probably because of, our constant disagreements, > Schopen and I became friends. He went on to become a great scholar. I > went on to stay who I am. > > Richard This has to be, without a doubt, one of the best intellectual autobiographies I have ever read. (of course, I haven't read Conze's) -- Ari Fleisher said people should watch what they say. Obama says people should be careful who they listen to. See the difference? From dharmafarer at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 21:43:41 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 12:43:41 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Schopen lauded In-Reply-To: References: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E081F3636@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <28265EB2AD994D78AE4AB5D85AF75F70@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: Thanks, Weng Fai, very interesting and "reasonable" as you put it. Hope more monastics will read and heed this Sutra. Anyway, we know from the Pali suttas (such as S 41.1) that Citta the householder gives teachings to the monks. With metta, Piya On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > "Fa Yuan Zhu Lin" (T53 No. 2122 Fascicle 98, p. 1005) cites a certain "Great > Sutra of Five Disasters" - I failed to locate this in the Taisho but it is > crossed listed in some of the catalogues found in the Taisho): > > "According to the Great Sutra of Five Disasters, there are five chaos (luan) > during the End of Dharma times: > > 1. Bhiksus learn the Dharma from householders (bai yi - "white clothed > ones"). This is first chaos. > > 2. Householders are seated above and the bhiksus below (them). This is the > second chaos. > > 3. Bhiksus do not practice what they preach while householders think what > they teach is supreme. This is the third chaos. > > 4. Maras appear in the world as bhiksus and the world take what they preach > as the true Dharma. The Buddha-Dharma is no longer clear to the world and > all sorts of lies and falsehood are held as beliefs. This is the fourth > chaos. > > 5. Bhiksus have wives and servants, earns a livelihood and do not keep the > precepts, making them no different from householders. This is fifth chaos." > > Sounds reasonable to me. > > W.F. Wong > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- >> bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Piya Tan >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:49 AM >> To: Buddhist discussion forum >> Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Schopen lauded >> >> Weng Fai, >> >> Your citation please. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 21:46:43 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 05:46:43 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? In-Reply-To: <1768679743.717851236039420165.JavaMail.root@zim-store04.web.westnet.com.au> References: <1768679743.717851236039420165.JavaMail.root@zim-store04.web.westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <779482257.20090303054643@gmail.com> Andrew wrote: AS> Forgive me, but is any form of academic study of Buddhism of any AS> use at all to people who want to become arahants? I am asking not AS> to provoke but to find out what you all think. Thanks. analysis and reflection on teachings appears by many ways in all traditions without exception. Question is not academic or Kung Fu Panda but to clarify oneself. Sometimes appears one thing and sometimes the other one. best regards. From dharmafarer at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 21:50:38 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 12:50:38 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? In-Reply-To: <893956.49336.qm@web54603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <893956.49336.qm@web54603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Katherine, it's great that JGB allows free downloads of its article. I've always enjoyed reading Makransky's works. He has a long papers in the issuie you mentioned. With metta. Piya On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:00 PM, Katherine Masis wrote: > Andrew Scott wrote: > "Forgive me, but is any form of academic study of Buddhism of any use at all to people who want to become arahants? I am asking not to provoke but to find out what you all think. Thanks." > ------------------------------ > Hi, Andrew > > We had this discussion about scholars-and-practioners back in 2007 and if I remember correctly, again in 2008.? Maybe you can save the archives to disk and then do a word search and keep the threads that interest you.??(If you can't find the threads for those discussions, contact me off-list--I think I might have saved some.) > > The current issue of *Journal of Global Buddhism* has?some interesting articles on this topic.? The issue itself is titled?*Buddhists and Scholars of Buddhism: Blurred Distinctions in Contemporary Buddhist Studies.*??Franz Metcalf, a member of this list, is the Book Review Editor for the journal. > > To download the articles in PDF, click on "print," then let the articles load before saving them. > > http://www.globalbuddhism.org/toc.html > > Best wishes, > Katherine Masis > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From curt at cola.iges.org Mon Mar 2 21:51:40 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:51:40 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? In-Reply-To: <1768679743.717851236039420165.JavaMail.root@zim-store04.web.westnet.com.au> References: <1768679743.717851236039420165.JavaMail.root@zim-store04.web.westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <49ACB75C.6030204@cola.iges.org> When the Buddha left the palace he did not go in search of university with a Buddhist Studies program. Thank the Gods. Curt Andrew Scott wrote: > Forgive me, but is any form of academic study of Buddhism of any use at all to people who want to become arahants? I am asking not to provoke but to find out what you all think. Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From curt at cola.iges.org Mon Mar 2 21:53:34 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:53:34 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Schopen lauded In-Reply-To: References: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E081F3636@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <28265EB2AD994D78AE4AB5D85AF75F70@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <49ACB7CE.6050501@cola.iges.org> Piya Tan wrote: > We have > monasteries with loads of expensive electronics, gyms, badminton hall, > cars, etc. > Are any of them currently accepting applicants? Curt From Bradley.Clough at mso.umt.edu Mon Mar 2 22:24:53 2009 From: Bradley.Clough at mso.umt.edu (Clough, Bradley) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 22:24:53 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? References: <1768679743.717851236039420165.JavaMail.root@zim-store04.web.westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <2587B0DAE8666D47ABDEBE2485E7046CFC1879@MUMMAILVS2.gs.umt.edu> Sure, for example there are the three l?evels of wisdom that one must cultivate: 1) wisdom based on thinking (cinta-maya?-pan~n~a?)? 2) wisdom based on "what is heard" or learning (suta-maya?-pan~n~a?)? and 3) wisdom based on mental cultivation or meditation (bha?vana?-maya?-pan~n~a?). If one wanted, the academic study of Buddhism could certainly contribute greatly to developing at least the first two kinds of wisdom. Brad Bradley Clough Assistant Professor of Asian Religions The University of Montana Liberal Studies Program LA 101 Missoula, MT 59812 Office Phone: 406-243-2837 Fax: 406-243-5313 -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com on behalf of Andrew Scott Sent: Mon 02-Mar-09 5:17 PM To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? Forgive me, but is any form of academic study of Buddhism of any use at all to people who want to become arahants? I am asking not to provoke but to find out what you all think. Thanks. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From dharmafarer at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 22:37:06 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 13:37:06 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Schopen lauded In-Reply-To: <49ACB7CE.6050501@cola.iges.org> References: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E081F3636@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <28265EB2AD994D78AE4AB5D85AF75F70@comp.nus.edu.sg> <49ACB7CE.6050501@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: Well, Curt, :) There is a great demand and respect of "angmo" (read Thai: "farang") monastics and teachers here. On more than one occasion, monastery workers here have told me that "western speakers attract larger crowds here than locals". Yes, opportunities abound in the monasteries here in this downturn, which of course have almost no effect on the affluent monastics. Having said that, I think the crossing between local meditation teachers (esp forest monks like AJahn Chah) and western practitioners are providing a rich global platform for spiritual connectivity on an unprecedented level in Buddhist history. I'm learning a great from western Buddhist teachers, from this forum and I'm getting more western monks contacting me about Sutta translations and study. The experience is most enriching. With metta, Piya On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > Piya Tan wrote: >> We have >> monasteries with loads of expensive electronics, gyms, badminton hall, >> cars, etc. >> > > Are any of them currently accepting applicants? > > Curt > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Mar 2 22:48:16 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 22:48:16 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? In-Reply-To: mailman.9.1236020413.20415.buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com Message-ID: <1236059296.11820.2.camel@localhost> Andrew Scott seeks forgiveness: > Forgive me, but is any form of academic study of Buddhism of any use > at all to people who want to become arahants? Academic study neither helps nor hinders. Why do you ask? > I am asking not to provoke but to find out what you all think. I think that academic study neither helps nor hinders. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Mon Mar 2 22:59:03 2009 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 13:59:03 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Means of ego inflation In-Reply-To: <1236059296.11820.2.camel@localhost> References: mailman.9.1236020413.20415.buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com <1236059296.11820.2.camel@localhost> Message-ID: My casual observation: both "practice" and "studies" seems to work well as means for ego inflation. I have met both "serious meditators/practitioners" as well as Buddhist scholars who have very big egos and think the world of themselves. W.F. Wong From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Mon Mar 2 23:24:10 2009 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 14:24:10 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? In-Reply-To: <1236059296.11820.2.camel@localhost> References: mailman.9.1236020413.20415.buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com <1236059296.11820.2.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <5E5B19544C114984B14B3C178D92E669@comp.nus.edu.sg> It is well known that "P.H.D." stands for "Permanent Head Damage". W.F. Wong > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 1:48 PM > To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? > > Andrew Scott seeks forgiveness: > > > > Forgive me, but is any form of academic study of Buddhism of any use > > at all to people who want to become arahants? > > Academic study neither helps nor hinders. Why do you ask? > > > I am asking not to provoke but to find out what you all think. > > I think that academic study neither helps nor hinders. > > -- > Richard Hayes > Department of Philosophy > University of New Mexico > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Tue Mar 3 01:57:45 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 03:57:45 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] re. Useful for enlightenment? Message-ID: <8CB69F54055A6FD-1AF0-5F3@FRR3-L28.sis.aol.com> Andrew Scott wrote: >Forgive me, but is any form of academic study of Buddhism of any use at all to people who want to become arahants? I am asking not to provoke but to find out what you all think. Thanks.< Is wanting to become an arahant of any use at all?in making?spiritual progress? The academic study of Buddhism, or of other subjects, might well aid spiritual progress more than wanting to become an arahant! In brief, this would be because of the critical skills it develops and the widening of perspective beyond one's own tradition and its language. Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net From at8u at virginia.edu Tue Mar 3 07:47:38 2009 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 09:47:38 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49AD430A.5090103@virginia.edu> Piya Tan worte: "Thanks Katherine, it's great that JGB allows free downloads of its article. I've always enjoyed reading Makransky's works. He has a long papers in the issue you mentioned." Hi Piya, Your comment points to an issue that I feel strongly about: - an average size-university (I'm thinking of the University of Virginia where I currently am) spends around $4000000 in a single year for e-subscriptions; - for-profit publishers (especially 4 large companies, whose behavior has been described as monopolistic by a copyright lawyer whose talk I recently saw)) made $ 15 billion (!) in 2008 alone in subscriptions. This is all money flowing out of higher education; - poorer universities/institutions/individuals can't afford to subscribe to journals or even buy individual articles, which sometimes are priced at $40-50 for a single PDF; - we in the West write about Buddhism and people in many Buddhist countries can't afford to read what we write; - in spite of the enormous financial revenue, publishers have produced a very small amount of innovation and inventiveness. In fact, some of them provide services that are mediocre at best. Hence, I encourage people to look at open access: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_access_(publishing) It always pains me when new journals are launched and editors decide to go for the old model of doing things, which further shackles academia to greedy businesses. It's not that these publishers are evil, it's that they are businesses whose institutional duty is to maximize profit, not to benefit academia. Hence, partially inspired by the Journal of Buddhist Ethics and JGB, I am working on an open access, peer-reviewed journal on Buddhist thought, which in my view will nicely complement these two other journals. The colleague with whom I'm working and I hope to have all the software infrastructure functional by the end of 2009 and to have the first issue out by the end of 2010. The most difficult part now is to find an institution to donate server space or alternatively to find a grant so that we can purchase server space somewhere. Keep tuned for further announcements as we have more concrete details. Best, Alberto Todeschini From jkirk at spro.net Tue Mar 3 08:27:32 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 08:27:32 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? In-Reply-To: <49AD430A.5090103@virginia.edu> References: <49AD430A.5090103@virginia.edu> Message-ID: <2E459F355C464A6189EA249BD2C5C83D@OPTIPLEX> Hi Alberto, "Hence, partially inspired by the Journal of Buddhist Ethics and JGB, I am working on an open access, peer-reviewed journal on Buddhist thought, which in my view will nicely complement these two other journals. The colleague with whom I'm working and I hope to have all the software infrastructure functional by the end of 2009 and to have the first issue out by the end of 2010. The most difficult part now is to find an institution to donate server space or alternatively to find a grant so that we can purchase server space somewhere. Keep tuned for further announcements as we have more concrete details." This is great news! good luck finding a server. Cheers, Joanna From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Tue Mar 3 08:32:10 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 07:32:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? Message-ID: <382430.61022.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> For some reason a lot of us on this list seem to gravitate toward this topic of Scholars-and-Practitioners every now and then.? I think it was back in June 2007 that somebody posted something on the necessary balance among pariyatti (study of the teachings), patipatti (practice of the teachings) and pativedha (realization of the teachings).? I don?t remember who the author of the post was.? I?m pretty sure it was from June 2007 because I have some personal notes in a Word file on my computer to that effect from that month and year.? Unfortunately, I didn?t record the author. Technical problem:? I just tried to open my previously downloaded monthly archives (automatically saved in WINRAR) and none of them opened.? ?I can open each month individually from the archives page, but then I have to sift through each thread individually.? Any suggestions? Katherine From curt at cola.iges.org Tue Mar 3 08:32:55 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 10:32:55 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? In-Reply-To: <49AD430A.5090103@virginia.edu> References: <49AD430A.5090103@virginia.edu> Message-ID: <49AD4DA7.6040906@cola.iges.org> What we need for stuff like this is a Buddhist Emperor - like in the old days. Curt Alberto Todeschini wrote: > Hence, partially inspired by the Journal of Buddhist Ethics and JGB, I > am working on an open access, peer-reviewed journal on Buddhist thought, > which in my view will nicely complement these two other journals. The > colleague with whom I'm working and I hope to have all the software > infrastructure functional by the end of 2009 and to have the first issue > out by the end of 2010. The most difficult part now is to find an > institution to donate server space or alternatively to find a grant so > that we can purchase server space somewhere. > > Keep tuned for further announcements as we have more concrete details. > > Best, > > Alberto Todeschini > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From cfynn at gmx.net Tue Mar 3 08:37:50 2009 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 21:37:50 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? In-Reply-To: <49AD430A.5090103@virginia.edu> References: <49AD430A.5090103@virginia.edu> Message-ID: <49AD4ECE.5030008@gmx.net> Alberto The institution where you are (UVa) already hosts the Tibetan and Himalayan Library through which a number of interesting journals are freely available - including the Journal of the International Association of Tibetan Studies (JIATS) ISSN 1550-6363 or - Chris Alberto Todeschini wrote: > Piya Tan worte: > > "Thanks Katherine, it's great that JGB allows free downloads of its > article. I've always enjoyed reading Makransky's works. He has a long > papers in the issue you mentioned." > > Hi Piya, > > Your comment points to an issue that I feel strongly about: > > - an average size-university (I'm thinking of the University of Virginia > where I currently am) spends around $4000000 in a single year for > e-subscriptions; > > - for-profit publishers (especially 4 large companies, whose behavior > has been described as monopolistic by a copyright lawyer whose talk I > recently saw)) made $ 15 billion (!) in 2008 alone in subscriptions. > This is all money flowing out of higher education; > > - poorer universities/institutions/individuals can't afford to subscribe > to journals or even buy individual articles, which sometimes are priced > at $40-50 for a single PDF; > > - we in the West write about Buddhism and people in many Buddhist > countries can't afford to read what we write; > > - in spite of the enormous financial revenue, publishers have produced a > very small amount of innovation and inventiveness. In fact, some of them > provide services that are mediocre at best. > > Hence, I encourage people to look at open access: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_access_(publishing) > > It always pains me when new journals are launched and editors decide to > go for the old model of doing things, which further shackles academia to > greedy businesses. It's not that these publishers are evil, it's that > they are businesses whose institutional duty is to maximize profit, not > to benefit academia. > Hence, partially inspired by the Journal of Buddhist Ethics and JGB, I > am working on an open access, peer-reviewed journal on Buddhist thought, > which in my view will nicely complement these two other journals. The > colleague with whom I'm working and I hope to have all the software > infrastructure functional by the end of 2009 and to have the first issue > out by the end of 2010. The most difficult part now is to find an > institution to donate server space or alternatively to find a grant so > that we can purchase server space somewhere. > > Keep tuned for further announcements as we have more concrete details. > > Best, > > Alberto Todeschini > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From at8u at virginia.edu Tue Mar 3 09:08:27 2009 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 11:08:27 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49AD55FB.30706@virginia.edu> Chris Fynn wrote: "The institution where you are (UVa) already hosts the Tibetan and Himalayan Library through which a number of interesting journals are freely available - including the Journal of the International Association of Tibetan Studies (JIATS)" Dear Chris, You are absolutely right and I should have mentioned JIATS as one of my inspirations. I am, of course, aware of the Tibetan and Himalayan Library and I actually am doing some work for them (proof-reading the Sanskrit titles of the entire Dege canon and doing some basic research about alternative titles, etc.). In fact, I think of David Germano as an inspiring model of scholar working tirelessly (I mean this literally) for the benefit of the academic community and of Tibet in general. I do hope that people appreciate how much he does. Best, Alberto Todeschini From gary.gach at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 09:15:36 2009 From: gary.gach at gmail.com (Gary Gach) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 08:15:36 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] tuesday Message-ID: <598baadd0903030815t68f1210by22c30fbe58aa39b6@mail.gmail.com> many thanks to the noble listmembers who backchanneled me with both errata in my hasty post (i'm backlogged and speeding) and useful suggestions am still curious ... and it's relevant to the recent topic of pariyatti ... vaguely how many programs [departments] of buddhist study might dot the halls of academe today? [rough estimate; approximate snapshot]. albert, i'll ask if the buddhist channel might be interested in offering its server as a host. i know for a while we were hosting ashoka. i'll back channel you. having said that, i might throw out to the group the possibility of the channel considering writers and editors in the future. i don't know if i'd ever mentioned that here before. interviewers, movie reviewers, book reviewers, regional reporters/editors, op-eds, etc. and i'm with you, mr. wong. practice and study can easily serve as mask or fodder for further inflation of, or infliction of, the disease they seemingly seek to eradicate. Gary Gach, International Advisory Panel http://BuddhistChannel.tv b l o g : http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/where-buddha-meets-freud From dharmafarer at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 10:12:14 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 01:12:14 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? In-Reply-To: <49AD55FB.30706@virginia.edu> References: <49AD55FB.30706@virginia.edu> Message-ID: Thanks guys for the refreshing and liberating gesture. Eastern wisdom is being ijacked by greedy publishers like ravaging conquistadores of the colonial days. They took away our natural resources, processed them and then sold them back to us at great profits for themselves. This is being familiarly replayed. We (Asians) often try to publish Dharma books for free distribution. Now we should read them more instead of treating them as fetishes and totems.. I also recall once (decades back) when a local dana group had printed Walpola Rahula's "What the Buddha Taught" but the Sinhalese Chief High Priest in Malaysia reported piracy to the publisher, and the free books had to be withdrawn. Anyway we now have much better books by scholars who practise Dharma than bookish monks who turn the Vinaya and the Buddha on their heads. Let us work together for a freer Buddhism. Metta to all, Piya Tan On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 12:08 AM, Alberto Todeschini wrote: > Chris Fynn wrote: > > "The institution where you are (UVa) already hosts the Tibetan and > Himalayan Library through which a number of > interesting journals are freely available ?- including the Journal of > the International Association of Tibetan Studies (JIATS)" > > Dear Chris, > > You are absolutely right and I should have mentioned JIATS as one of my > inspirations. I am, of course, aware of the Tibetan and Himalayan > Library and I actually am doing some work for them (proof-reading the > Sanskrit titles of the entire Dege canon and doing some basic research > about alternative titles, etc.). > > In fact, I think of David Germano as an inspiring model of scholar > working tirelessly (I mean this literally) for the benefit of the > academic community and of Tibet in general. I do hope that people > appreciate how much he does. > > Best, > > Alberto Todeschini > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From franz at mind2mind.net Tue Mar 3 10:48:56 2009 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 09:48:56 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? In-Reply-To: References: <49AD55FB.30706@virginia.edu> Message-ID: <783924F7-1C22-4E78-A89D-D260A7DE3797@mind2mind.net> Gang, Many thanks for the appreciation of the Journal of Global Buddhism. There's a saying common on the net that information wants to be free. This for two reasons. 1) It is so very easy to put up information in easily and freely copiable form. 2) Information, especially scholarly information, exists precisely to be expanded and applied; these actions can be achieved in direct proportion to the extent of that information's freedom. The JGB: freeing information since 2000. By contrast, I just had the discouraging experience of wanting to recommend a chapter I wrote some years ago to a teacher of an introduction to Buddhism course. But that chapter is not free. It is bound into the paper chains of a book that no one wants to buy. I *have* the pdf on my computer, but do not believe I can legally share it (certainly not with a class of students, anyway). They are left to the wilds of the internet and my information rots in its pulpy prison. So let us cheer the demise of the $150 book, but not replace it with the $40 pdf! Franz From jhubbard at email.smith.edu Tue Mar 3 11:38:02 2009 From: jhubbard at email.smith.edu (Jamie Hubbard) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 13:38:02 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? In-Reply-To: <783924F7-1C22-4E78-A89D-D260A7DE3797@mind2mind.net> References: <49AD55FB.30706@virginia.edu> <783924F7-1C22-4E78-A89D-D260A7DE3797@mind2mind.net> Message-ID: <49AD790A.7080402@email.smith.edu> Franz Metcalf wrote: > Gang, > > Many thanks for the appreciation of the Journal of Global Buddhism. > There's a saying common on the net that information wants to be free. > This for two reasons. 1) It is so very easy to put up information in > easily and freely copiable form. 2) Information, especially scholarly > information, exists precisely to be expanded and applied; these > actions can be achieved in direct proportion to the extent of that > information's freedom. The JGB: freeing information since 2000. I have made the decision to put everything I write out on the net for free, excluding the few things left in the pipeline with paper publishers. While I hate to see somebody put out of work, it *really* irritates me to work w/ academic publishers these days. The writer pretty much has to everything from camera-ready copy to making an index and there is so little real copy-editing done that it is a joke (I know that there are some delightful exceptions, e.g., the BDK folks). And then, given tax rules and whatnot, the work is out of print in a year or two. Tenure in the academy is the only feeble reason left for this situation, and that is changing as more universities recognize the web as a publishing venue. > By contrast, I just had the discouraging experience of wanting to > recommend a chapter I wrote some years ago to a teacher of an > introduction to Buddhism course. But that chapter is not free. It is > bound into the paper chains of a book that no one wants to buy. I > *have* the pdf on my computer, but do not believe I can legally share > it (certainly not with a class of students, anyway). They are left to > the wilds of the internet and my information rots in its pulpy prison. > NO, you have an option: put stuff up on the web for your class behind a password-access for students in the class only. It is (virtually) the same as putting something on reserve in the library. At my school most folks have moved from expensive course-packs of articles, etc. to Blackboard, Moodle, or one of the other such systems that allow this approach. Jamie From jkirk at spro.net Tue Mar 3 11:54:53 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 11:54:53 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? In-Reply-To: <783924F7-1C22-4E78-A89D-D260A7DE3797@mind2mind.net> References: <49AD55FB.30706@virginia.edu> <783924F7-1C22-4E78-A89D-D260A7DE3797@mind2mind.net> Message-ID: <13088201E13D4C3D8251A71E8366F01D@OPTIPLEX> I *have* the pdf on my computer, but do not believe I can legally share it (certainly not with a class of students, anyway). They are left to the wilds of the internet and my information rots in its pulpy prison. So let us cheer the demise of the $150 book, but not replace it with the $40 pdf! Franz ======================= Hi Frantz, Hmm. Do you think that the publisher would actually spend the bucks to sue you if you modified the pdf here and there (perhaps shortening it as well) and then forwarded it to the teacher? IMO, perhaps not universally agreed, this would be a fair use for educational purposes. Fair use for such purposes is widespread. I made use of it myself in my publication; haven't come across anyone who got arrested for (c) violation in such instances. (Oh wait---was that a knock on my door? Eh..) Best, Joanna From franz at mind2mind.net Tue Mar 3 13:22:51 2009 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 12:22:51 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fair Use behind Closed Classroom Doors In-Reply-To: <49AD790A.7080402@email.smith.edu> References: <49AD55FB.30706@virginia.edu> <783924F7-1C22-4E78-A89D-D260A7DE3797@mind2mind.net> <49AD790A.7080402@email.smith.edu> Message-ID: <49401E5F-39EB-4163-8018-84107B644A21@mind2mind.net> Gang, I've given this thread a new subject line, as we've entered a new discussion. Thanks, Jamie and Joanna, for bucking me up! Your thoughts lead me to two closely related questions and a follow-up: 1) What is the current limit on "fair use" in academia? Last I checked, restrictions were so onerous that Cal State LA (a very large and, I reckon, sue-able institution) made it almost impossible for me to reprint anything useful in a reader. I took to using *only* web resources and skipping printing altogether. Which leads to... 2) This intriguing notion of Jamie's that putting a (technically) single digital copy of something on a course site is NOT like making a reader, but rather like putting a copy on reserve at the library. As I said, I've long since moved to online course materials, but shied away from copyrighted material (other than my own, where I have indeed bent the rules--sorry Ulysses Press). Aside from the fact that publishers are very unlikely to learn of or prosecute such re-publication, does anyone have opinions on the legality of such use? and 3) Has anyone here attempted to add a waiver allowing this sort of re- publication to a contract for writing a chapter/article/book? Any luck? Thanks for pushing this conversation forward, Franz From jkirk at spro.net Tue Mar 3 14:26:30 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 14:26:30 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fair Use behind Closed Classroom Doors In-Reply-To: <49401E5F-39EB-4163-8018-84107B644A21@mind2mind.net> References: <49AD55FB.30706@virginia.edu> <783924F7-1C22-4E78-A89D-D260A7DE3797@mind2mind.net><49AD790A.7080402@email.smith.edu> <49401E5F-39EB-4163-8018-84107B644A21@mind2mind.net> Message-ID: <6A56540BB86E4499834699361310BC3E@OPTIPLEX> Gang, I've given this thread a new subject line, as we've entered a new discussion. Thanks, Jamie and Joanna, for bucking me up! Your thoughts lead me to two closely related questions and a follow-up: 1) What is the current limit on "fair use" in academia? Last I checked, restrictions were so onerous that Cal State LA (a very large and, I reckon, sue-able institution) made it almost impossible for me to reprint anything useful in a reader. I took to using *only* web resources and skipping printing altogether. Which leads to... 2) This intriguing notion of Jamie's that putting a (technically) single digital copy of something on a course site is NOT like making a reader, but rather like putting a copy on reserve at the library. As I said, I've long since moved to online course materials, but shied away from copyrighted material (other than my own, where I have indeed bent the rules--sorry Ulysses Press). Aside from the fact that publishers are very unlikely to learn of or prosecute such re-publication, does anyone have opinions on the legality of such use? and 3) Has anyone here attempted to add a waiver allowing this sort of re- publication to a contract for writing a chapter/article/book? Any luck? Thanks for pushing this conversation forward, Franz ============ JK: 1) Last I looked it is contentious. Jamie's idea as to how to manage your pdf is excellent. The point is, making it available in a password protected manner is not discouraging the sale of the $150.00 book! What students will fork over that kind of money for a book (unless they are at MIT)? 2) As to legality? I'd forget about it. If you asked copyright lawyers you'd get different answers. Publishing online and open source is slowly but surely moving away from the old publisher-enforced anal restrictions. 3) Just try negotiating with any university press today, for sheer frustration and no flexibility. IMO, I got scrod by my publisher in that they sent out so few review copies that I had to round up said copies myself after locating the various journals to which they needed to go, as well as noticing that after 6 months they had stopped doing anything to market my item; had to deal with the editor from hell (as agreed by other colleagues as well as myself); and now that they sold only 10 copies last year (my pub. date was 2003) that were not sold to me, am figuring out out how to get my distribution rights back. Best, Joanna From at8u at virginia.edu Tue Mar 3 15:25:52 2009 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 17:25:52 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49ADAE70.4050707@virginia.edu> Franz Metcalf wrote: "By contrast, I just had the discouraging experience of wanting to recommend a chapter I wrote some years ago to a teacher of an introduction to Buddhism course. But that chapter is not free. It is bound into the paper chains of a book that no one wants to buy. I *have* the pdf on my computer, but do not believe I can legally share it (certainly not with a class of students, anyway). They are left to the wilds of the internet and my information rots in its pulpy prison." Hi Franz, I mentioned that recently a copyright lawyer came to give a talk here at UVa. She said that authors routinely fail to pay enough attention to the paperwork they sign when they publish something thereby essentially giving up all and every right they have to their own work. Your case sounds perfectly common. For-profit publishers (with some exceptions) by default ask for complete ownership of what they publish, so it's better to be careful. The lawyer also mentioned that frequently the terms are negotiable, hence there is something we can do about it. In case you don't know, academic publishing companies with deep pockets have been lobbying hard governments in the US and EU to maintain the status quo against open access. I have already expressed my appreciation of some open access journals but it is worth mentioning that I'm also greatly supportive of people like Richard Hayes and Jamie Hubbard who have put/will put their articles on the net making them available to all. Anyway, and to conclude on a possibly Buddhist-sounding note, knowledge can be liberating, that is, by educating ourselves and our colleagues and following that knowledge with the appropriate choices we can and should try to improve the situation. Best, Alberto Todeschini From jkirk at spro.net Tue Mar 3 17:04:46 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 17:04:46 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? In-Reply-To: <49ADAE70.4050707@virginia.edu> References: <49ADAE70.4050707@virginia.edu> Message-ID: <0DBD6526915D49FEA0E4929FC7E8D8C8@OPTIPLEX> -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Alberto Todeschini Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 3:26 PM The lawyer also mentioned that frequently the terms are negotiable, hence there is something we can do about it. In case you don't know, academic publishing companies with deep pockets have been lobbying hard governments in the US and EU to maintain the status quo against open access. Best, Alberto Todeschini ======================================== Alberto, The contract terms are also theoretically "negotiable" with university (as well as with commercial) presses, but the reality is that they are every bit as non-cooperative as the commercial outfits. In fact, commercial publishers often offer advances, if they want your work badly enough; university presses rarely offer advances. Regards, Joanna From andrew.scott at westnet.com.au Tue Mar 3 16:01:02 2009 From: andrew.scott at westnet.com.au (Andrew Scott) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 08:01:02 +0900 (WST) Subject: [Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 49, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2123337468.936431236121262194.JavaMail.root@zim-store04.web.westnet.com.au> Dear Katherine, Thank you for the information and the offer. I will see how I go with the word search. Warm regards, Andrew ----- Original Message ----- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 20:00:17 -0800 (PST) From: Katherine Masis Subject: [Buddha-l] Useful for Enlightenment? To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Message-ID: <893956.49336.qm at web54603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi, Andrew We had this discussion about scholars-and-practioners back in 2007 and if I remember correctly, again in 2008.? Maybe you can save the archives to disk and then do a word search and keep the threads that interest you.??(If you can't find the threads for those discussions, contact me off-list--I think I might have saved some.) The current issue of *Journal of Global Buddhism* has?some interesting articles on this topic.? The issue itself is titled?*Buddhists and Scholars of Buddhism: Blurred Distinctions in Contemporary Buddhist Studies.*??Franz Metcalf, a member of this list, is the Book Review Editor for the journal.? To download the articles in PDF, click on "print," then let the articles load before saving them. http://www.globalbuddhism.org/toc.html Best wishes, Katherine Masis From Kdorje at aol.com Tue Mar 3 15:19:12 2009 From: Kdorje at aol.com (Kdorje at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 17:19:12 EST Subject: [Buddha-l] Fair Use behind Closed Classroom Doors Message-ID: Has anyone explored self-publishing rather than using university or other academic presses? What about sponsors? Say, Buddhist organizations? Just a couple of thoughts. **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219957551x1201325337/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) From shian at kmspks.org Mon Mar 2 23:07:59 2009 From: shian at kmspks.org ([DPD CDT] Shen Shi'an) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 14:07:59 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Means of ego inflation In-Reply-To: References: mailman.9.1236020413.20415.buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com<1236059296.11820.2.camel@localhost> Message-ID: When anyone considers oneself a 'serious scholar' or a 'serious meditator/ practitioner', chances are that s/he has taken his/her 'self' too seriously. And the irony is that such seriousness based on self impedes true advancement in one's work and practice. The self is always in the way till it's realised to be illusory. -----Original Message----- From: Weng-Fai Wong [mailto:wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg] Sent: Tuesday, 03 March, 2009 1:59 PM To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Subject: [Buddha-l] Means of ego inflation My casual observation: both "practice" and "studies" seems to work well as means for ego inflation. I have met both "serious meditators/practitioners" as well as Buddhist scholars who have very big egos and think the world of themselves. W.F. Wong _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3903 (20090303) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. Email message - is OK Email message - is OK http://www.eset.com From dharmafarer at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 20:07:25 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 11:07:25 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Means of ego inflation In-Reply-To: References: <1236059296.11820.2.camel@localhost> Message-ID: Guys, The first fact I know about myself is that I do have a BIG ego, and that's all I have at the moment. And I'm not sure what to do about it exactly. I want to be a serious scholar and a serious meditator, even is it means having to deal with a big ego. I think that's what being a Buddhist is about. There are those who talk about big ego, and there are those who worth with it. On the other hand, self-effacement is also a form of ego trip. In fact, I think it is one of the biggest ego trip. So you see there is really no way out: be proud, you are ego-bound, be humble, you are ego-bound, too. Even streamwinners by definition may have a "big" ego in the eyes of non-streamwinners. Arhats by definition have no ego. Do we have arhats amongst us? We all have big egos, but the difference is there are those who know about it and those who do not. I suppose we (mostly traditional Asians) tend to define being "selfless" (without ego, or having small ego) as being submissive, obsequious and politically correct (that is, very Confucian). Having said that, yes, I do agree many Buddhist teachers (incl myself) floating around in Singapore are really "I-pods" of self-views. This a phase we must outgrow for Buddhism to be meaningful and effective here. An important way out of ego Buddhism is to learn a thing or two from the western development of Buddhism, where Buddhism is accepted for what it is, and not as a cultural or ethnic faith. We need to go beyond "Chinese" or "Thai" Buddhism, etc, if we are to be globally effective. Buddhisms are very competitive today. Mahayana has come to mean "big business". "Big ego" should not mean "I don't like such people," but we need to work harder so that we can do something about it. The Buddha noticed the ego of Brahmanism and did something about it. Ethnic Buddhism will always be there, but we need to work on a more selfless Buddhism. I'm stuck with ego Buddhism because it's so difficult to get people to work on a not-ego platform. We all love memes: big temples, air-conditioned rooms, nice crowd, some back-slapping, and VIPs nearby.. The start of bursting the ego begins, I think, with trying to be sincerely friendly to others despite everything (this is also called compassion), I find this very hard to do sometimes, but I know I have to start there. Shian and Weng Fai are two sincerely selfless friends I know in Singapore.They are each doing great Buddhist work in their own remarkable way. Piya Tan On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 2:07 PM, [DPD CDT] Shen Shi'an wrote: > When anyone considers oneself a 'serious scholar' or a 'serious > meditator/ practitioner', chances are that s/he has taken his/her 'self' > too seriously. And the irony is that such seriousness based on self > impedes true advancement in one's work and practice. The self is always > in the way till it's realised to be illusory. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Weng-Fai Wong [mailto:wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg] > Sent: Tuesday, 03 March, 2009 1:59 PM > To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' > Subject: [Buddha-l] Means of ego inflation > > My casual observation: both "practice" and "studies" seems to work well > as means for ego inflation. I have met both "serious > meditators/practitioners" > as well as Buddhist scholars who have very big egos and think the world > of themselves. > > W.F. Wong > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3903 (20090303) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > ?Email message - is OK > ?Email message - is OK > > http://www.eset.com > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From curt at cola.iges.org Tue Mar 3 20:13:14 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 22:13:14 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Means of ego inflation In-Reply-To: References: <1236059296.11820.2.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <49ADF1CA.30009@cola.iges.org> Does this PhD make my ego look big?? Curt From dharmafarer at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 20:22:14 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 11:22:14 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fair Use behind Closed Classroom Doors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I use Google Pages as I still a dimwit with websites. My wife Ratna is getting better at it now. Anyway, we have been uploading all my translations and essays onto our website. Interestingly, a forest monk (a westerner I think) from Sri Lanka emailed me saying that another forest monks from Australia had handed him some printed copies of my Sutta translations, and wonder if he could use those materials. Of course, I said, and also invited (pavarana) him and other monks to check or critique my works freely. What also interesting is that the forest monks tells me that he is (they are) only allowed to email but not surf the net, even them for like 3 minutes to download the emails for perusing offline. A great to engage with the world without sinking into it. Anyway, I will be sending a CD or DVD of the translations and essays to the forest monastery free of charge. (There is a small charge for non-monastics and false monastics.) Then there is the case of an Indian bookseller in India who wanted a set of hard copies of my translations. We agreed on barter: I keep sending him installments of my works as they appear, and he occasionally informs me of the latest books on Buddhism published in India. Theoretically I could get from him any title listed in the catalogues of MLBD or any Indian publishers, by way of exchange. This is an international trade at its best, in Dharma terms. Piya Tan On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 6:19 AM, wrote: > Has anyone explored self-publishing rather than using university or other > academic presses? > > What about sponsors? Say, Buddhist organizations? > > Just a couple of thoughts. > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219957551x1201325337/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID > %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From dharmafarer at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 20:28:18 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 11:28:18 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Means of ego inflation In-Reply-To: <49ADF1CA.30009@cola.iges.org> References: <1236059296.11820.2.camel@localhost> <49ADF1CA.30009@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: How many Buddhas does it take to burst an ego? None. There is really no ego, only the fear that we have none. If we think we have an ego, I think we should make it really by till it bursts. Nothing is more pathetic than having a big ego but trying to keep it small. It is like remaining stuck behind the comfort of the fully inflated airbag after you car has smashed into a lamppost or wall. Piya Tan On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > Does this PhD make my ego look big?? > > Curt > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From jkirk at spro.net Tue Mar 3 21:48:39 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 21:48:39 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Means of ego inflation In-Reply-To: References: <1236059296.11820.2.camel@localhost><49ADF1CA.30009@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: "It is like remaining stuck behind the comfort of the fully inflated airbag after your car has smashed into a lamppost or wall." Brilliant and memorable, Piya~~~~~~ Joanna ================= Nothing is more pathetic than having a big ego but trying to keep it small. It is like remaining stuck behind the comfort of the fully inflated airbag after you car has smashed into a lamppost or wall. Piya Tan From dharmafarer at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 22:13:23 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 13:13:23 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Means of ego inflation In-Reply-To: <49ADF1CA.30009@cola.iges.org> References: <1236059296.11820.2.camel@localhost> <49ADF1CA.30009@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: Curt, Having a PhD is really great (not that you do not know it already). Western academic system however is that of knowing more and more of less and less. But that less and less should become so refined that it is like a laser beam that cuts through the ignorance and superficiality of unscholarliness and unspirituality. And it should be bright enough to be like the Buddha's "omniscience" in that it (the PhD) can allow us access to anything we want to know that is knowable. It also helps attract much needed funds. Bahusaccan ca sippan ca...etam mangala uttamam (Deep learning and the arts...this is (each) a supreme blessing. Mangala Sutta). Piya Tan On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > Does this PhD make my ego look big?? > > Curt > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From cfynn at gmx.net Wed Mar 4 00:29:47 2009 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:29:47 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fair Use behind Closed Classroom Doors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49AE2DEB.8080604@gmx.net> If one is prepared to do the editing, layout and proof-reading - and then to produce final PDF files, then the cost of becoming a publisher using one of the numerous print-on-demand services is minimal. They will handle all the orders from Amazon and other distributors - print and ship copies as ordered ~ you receive the selling price minus their cost. In fact most academic presses now use print on demand services themselves - that is why many books published in recent years never go out of print. The prices these publishers sell books for bears no relation to what the print on demand services charge them - their printing, binding and shipping costs per book are in fact pretty low. - Chris Kdorje at aol.com wrote: > Has anyone explored self-publishing rather than using university or other > academic presses? > > What about sponsors? Say, Buddhist organizations? > From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed Mar 4 01:30:53 2009 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 09:30:53 +0100 (CET) Subject: [Buddha-l] Means of ego inflation Message-ID: <26595.194.109.68.114.1236155453.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Op Wo, 4 maart, 2009 04:13, schreef Curt Steinmetz: > Does this PhD make my ego look big?? > > Curt > > > Certainly not Curt, you don't need a piece of paper to do that!;-) (sorry, couldn't help myself) erik From gouin.me at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 01:33:52 2009 From: gouin.me at gmail.com (Margaret Gouin) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 09:33:52 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fair Use behind Closed Classroom Doors In-Reply-To: <49AE2DEB.8080604@gmx.net> References: <49AE2DEB.8080604@gmx.net> Message-ID: It appears that all these services give you the option of purchasing an ISBN number (for a very reasonable price) which gets the book listed on Amazon.com (free publicity, of a kind). I know a book designer who has had a number of professional projects published through Lulu.com and is very satisfied with the results. However there's also the issue of street cred. for a starting academic like me--having a book published through a recognised academic publisher looks good on the CV. Just need to find one that's proactive and has a good distribution network. Margaret 2009/3/4 Christopher Fynn > If one is prepared to do the editing, layout and proof-reading - and > then to produce final PDF files, then the cost of becoming a publisher > using one of the numerous print-on-demand services is minimal. They will > handle all the orders from Amazon and other distributors - print and > ship copies as ordered ~ you receive the selling price minus their cost. > > In fact most academic presses now use print on demand services > themselves - that is why many books published in recent years never go > out of print. > > The prices these publishers sell books for bears no relation to what the > print on demand services charge them - their printing, binding and > shipping costs per book are in fact pretty low. > > - Chris > > Kdorje at aol.com wrote: > > Has anyone explored self-publishing rather than using university or other > > academic presses? > > > > What about sponsors? Say, Buddhist organizations? > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Wed Mar 4 02:24:06 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 04:24:06 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] re. means of ego-inflation Message-ID: <8CB6AC219471791-1438-98CE@FRR5-L28.sis.aol.com> Piya Tan wrote: <> Dear Piya, I do agree that self-effacement is just as much of an ego-trip as self-promotion. But do you really think "there is really no way out"? The whole point of the Middle Way is to offer a way out which consists in neither extreme. However, integrative psychology (such as Jungian psychology) offers a clearer application of the Middle Way in relation to ego than anything I have come across in traditional Buddhism. There is no idea there of removing the ego or becoming egoless, but rather of stretching ego identifications and unifying them with opposing desires and beliefs, to remove the false dichotomies we constantly create in our interpretation of the world. The constant reference in Buddhist language and symbology to idealised selfless and pure states is the main reason why I have stopped calling myself a Buddhist: but the central insight of the Middle Way nevertheless offers a way forward that avoids being stuck in dichotomies of the self. Best wishes, Robert Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Mar 4 07:35:13 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 09:35:13 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Means of ego inflation In-Reply-To: <26595.194.109.68.114.1236155453.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <26595.194.109.68.114.1236155453.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <49AE91A1.7090306@cola.iges.org> Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > Op Wo, 4 maart, 2009 04:13, schreef Curt Steinmetz: > >> Does this PhD make my ego look big?? >> >> Curt >> >> > Certainly not Curt, you don't need a piece of paper to do that!;-) > (sorry, couldn't help myself) > The *last* thing I want to hear is the truth! I can't handle the truth. Tell me sweet lies. ;) Curt From shian at kmspks.org Tue Mar 3 20:19:55 2009 From: shian at kmspks.org ([DPD CDT] Shen Shi'an) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 11:19:55 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Means of ego inflation In-Reply-To: References: <1236059296.11820.2.camel@localhost> Message-ID: Paradoxically, A truly serious Dharma practitioner would realise that there is no one* who practises the Dharma seriously. - Stonepeace The Lord [Buddha] asked: What do you think, Subhuti, does it occur to the Stream-winner,** 'by me has the fruit of a Streamwinner been attained'? Subhuti replied: No indeed, O Lord. And why? Because, O Lord, he has not won any dharma. Therefore is he called a Stream-winner. No sight-object has been won, no sounds, smells, tastes, touchables, or objects of mind. That is why he is called a 'Stream-winner'. If, O Lord, it would occur to a Stream-winner, 'by me has a Stream-winner's fruit been attained', then that would be in him a seizing on a self, seizing on a being, seizing on a soul, seizing on a person." - Diamond Sutra * The illusion that there is some'one' as a result of self-delusion. ** Stream-entry is the most basic attainment that serious practitioners strive to attain in this lifetime. (No la... Me definitely not selfless... yet! Piya's books inspired me to seek and do Dharma work!) -----Original Message----- From: Piya Tan [mailto:dharmafarer at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, 04 March, 2009 11:07 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Means of ego inflation Guys, The first fact I know about myself is that I do have a BIG ego, and that's all I have at the moment. And I'm not sure what to do about it exactly. I want to be a serious scholar and a serious meditator, even is it means having to deal with a big ego. I think that's what being a Buddhist is about. There are those who talk about big ego, and there are those who worth with it. On the other hand, self-effacement is also a form of ego trip. In fact, I think it is one of the biggest ego trip. So you see there is really no way out: be proud, you are ego-bound, be humble, you are ego-bound, too. Even streamwinners by definition may have a "big" ego in the eyes of non-streamwinners. Arhats by definition have no ego. Do we have arhats amongst us? We all have big egos, but the difference is there are those who know about it and those who do not. I suppose we (mostly traditional Asians) tend to define being "selfless" (without ego, or having small ego) as being submissive, obsequious and politically correct (that is, very Confucian). Having said that, yes, I do agree many Buddhist teachers (incl myself) floating around in Singapore are really "I-pods" of self-views. This a phase we must outgrow for Buddhism to be meaningful and effective here. An important way out of ego Buddhism is to learn a thing or two from the western development of Buddhism, where Buddhism is accepted for what it is, and not as a cultural or ethnic faith. We need to go beyond "Chinese" or "Thai" Buddhism, etc, if we are to be globally effective. Buddhisms are very competitive today. Mahayana has come to mean "big business". "Big ego" should not mean "I don't like such people," but we need to work harder so that we can do something about it. The Buddha noticed the ego of Brahmanism and did something about it. Ethnic Buddhism will always be there, but we need to work on a more selfless Buddhism. I'm stuck with ego Buddhism because it's so difficult to get people to work on a not-ego platform. We all love memes: big temples, air-conditioned rooms, nice crowd, some back-slapping, and VIPs nearby.. The start of bursting the ego begins, I think, with trying to be sincerely friendly to others despite everything (this is also called compassion), I find this very hard to do sometimes, but I know I have to start there. Shian and Weng Fai are two sincerely selfless friends I know in Singapore.They are each doing great Buddhist work in their own remarkable way. Piya Tan On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 2:07 PM, [DPD CDT] Shen Shi'an wrote: > When anyone considers oneself a 'serious scholar' or a 'serious > meditator/ practitioner', chances are that s/he has taken his/her 'self' > too seriously. And the irony is that such seriousness based on self > impedes true advancement in one's work and practice. The self is > always in the way till it's realised to be illusory. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Weng-Fai Wong [mailto:wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg] > Sent: Tuesday, 03 March, 2009 1:59 PM > To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' > Subject: [Buddha-l] Means of ego inflation > > My casual observation: both "practice" and "studies" seems to work > well as means for ego inflation. I have met both "serious > meditators/practitioners" > as well as Buddhist scholars who have very big egos and think the > world of themselves. > > W.F. Wong > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3903 (20090303) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > ?Email message - is OK > ?Email message - is OK > > http://www.eset.com > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3906 (20090303) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. Email message - is OK Email message - is OK http://www.eset.com From dharmafarer at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 08:54:20 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 23:54:20 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] re. means of ego-inflation In-Reply-To: <8CB6AC219471791-1438-98CE@FRR5-L28.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB6AC219471791-1438-98CE@FRR5-L28.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Robert, I was thinking of the Madhupindika Sutta (M18) where the Buddha declares that the world (we) tend to be caught up in a duality (either...or) of something "is" (existence) and "is not" (non-existence), an Aristotelian duality? Then in another sutta (Vacchagotta SUtta?) he adds that to say there is the ego would be to side with eternalism, and to say there is none would be pointing to annihilationism. Very Madhyamika. So you must be right: calling oneself a Buddhist is one extreme, not calling oneself a Buddhist is the other. (I thought you are a Dharmachari.) Is that the sound of the Buddha's smiling? With metta, Piya Tan On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Robert Ellis wrote: > Piya Tan wrote: > < fact, I think it is one of the biggest ego trip. So you see there is > really no way out: be proud, you are ego-bound, be humble, you are > ego-bound, too.>> > > Dear Piya, > I do agree that self-effacement is just as much of an ego-trip as self-promotion. But do you really think "there is really no way out"? The whole point of the Middle Way is to offer a way out which consists in neither extreme. > > However, integrative psychology (such as Jungian psychology) offers a clearer application of the Middle Way in relation to ego than anything I have come across in traditional Buddhism. There is no idea there of removing the ego or becoming egoless, but rather of stretching ego identifications and unifying them with opposing desires and beliefs, to remove the false dichotomies we constantly create in our interpretation of the world. The constant reference in Buddhist language and symbology to idealised selfless and pure states is the main reason why I have stopped calling myself a Buddhist: but the central insight of the Middle Way nevertheless offers a way forward that avoids being stuck in dichotomies of the self. > Best wishes, > Robert > > > Robert Ellis > > website: www.moralobjectivity.net > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Wed Mar 4 08:54:44 2009 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:54:44 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] re. means of ego-inflation In-Reply-To: <8CB6AC219471791-1438-98CE@FRR5-L28.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB6AC219471791-1438-98CE@FRR5-L28.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <1D446775-A106-4907-935F-F2286D88B62C@wheelwrightassoc.com> I find Robert's position to mirror my own pretty closely. I find the methodologies of both Jungian (integrative/depth) psych. and buddhist practice to be complementary. I have a hard time adopting any one 'system' as 'the' path, but find that there are many ways to approach the ongoing problem of "what the hell is the matte with me." Timothy Smith Wheelwright Associates On Mar 4, 2009, at 1:24 AM, Robert Ellis wrote: > > > However, integrative psychology (such as Jungian psychology) offers > a clearer application of the Middle Way in relation to ego than > anything I have come across in traditional Buddhism. There is no > idea there of removing the ego or becoming egoless, but rather of > stretching ego identifications and unifying them with opposing > desires and beliefs, to remove the false dichotomies we constantly > create in our interpretation of the world. The constant reference in > Buddhist language and symbology to idealised selfless and pure > states is the main reason why I have stopped calling myself a > Buddhist: but the central insight of the Middle Way nevertheless > offers a way forward that avoids being stuck in dichotomies of the > self. > Best wishes, > Robert > From dharmafarer at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 09:08:01 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 00:08:01 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] re. means of ego-inflation In-Reply-To: <1D446775-A106-4907-935F-F2286D88B62C@wheelwrightassoc.com> References: <8CB6AC219471791-1438-98CE@FRR5-L28.sis.aol.com> <1D446775-A106-4907-935F-F2286D88B62C@wheelwrightassoc.com> Message-ID: At the risk of sounding supercilious, after 30 years of Buddhism (beginning with Theravada, then dabbling in Mahayana and Vajrayana) like a land-sighting bird, I returned to the "Theravada" or pre-sectarian Buddhism. I find a comparative study of the Pali texts and English translations of the Chinese Agama very refreshing and helpful. Now with better Pali texts (such as the World Tipitaka available online), and better translations and close studies, such studies and Buddhist living become easier. With some level of personal meditation practice and open friendliness, I find Buddhism to be like an art form. I can try more easily see beauty in impermanence and feel goodness in being responsively aware of others. With metta\, Piya Tan On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 11:54 PM, Timothy Smith wrote: > I find Robert's position to mirror my own pretty closely. ?I find the > methodologies of both Jungian (integrative/depth) psych. and buddhist > practice to be complementary. > I have a hard time adopting any one 'system' as 'the' path, but find > that there are many ways to approach the ongoing problem of "what the > hell is the matte with me." > Timothy Smith > Wheelwright Associates > > > On Mar 4, 2009, at 1:24 AM, Robert Ellis wrote: >> >> >> However, integrative psychology (such as Jungian psychology) offers >> a clearer application of the Middle Way in relation to ego than >> anything I have come across in traditional Buddhism. There is no >> idea there of removing the ego or becoming egoless, but rather of >> stretching ego identifications and unifying them with opposing >> desires and beliefs, to remove the false dichotomies we constantly >> create in our interpretation of the world. The constant reference in >> Buddhist language and symbology to idealised selfless and pure >> states is the main reason why I have stopped calling myself a >> Buddhist: but the central insight of the Middle Way nevertheless >> offers a way forward that avoids being stuck in dichotomies of the >> self. >> Best wishes, >> Robert >> > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Wed Mar 4 15:07:05 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 17:07:05 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] means of ego-inflation Message-ID: <8CB6B2CAEED0FE0-1470-96A6@FRR1-L28.sis.aol.com> Piya Tan wrote: <> If you mean dharmachari in the specific sense of member of the Western Buddhist Order, then I used to be one but resigned a year ago. I am now a follower of the Middle Way but not a Buddhist, because it became clear to me that most Buddhists do not give priority to the Middle Way, and are not prepared to let go of the many aspects of Buddhist tradition that conflict with it. The label "Buddhist" just became a burden, and I was struggling against the traditionalists in the Order all the time. Best wishes, Robert Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net From dharmafarer at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 18:40:17 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 09:40:17 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] means of ego-inflation In-Reply-To: <8CB6B2CAEED0FE0-1470-96A6@FRR1-L28.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB6B2CAEED0FE0-1470-96A6@FRR1-L28.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: "Traditionalist" in WBO? This is new, maybe thatr because I lost touch with it some 2 decades ago. What do you mean by "traditionalist"? I suppose Sangharakshita also went through a phase like you are doing. He was disillusioned with traditional Buddhism, but then he started his own Buddhism, and like Wu Zetian of the Tang/Wu dynasty, tried to take over the Buddha's place. But you choose the Middle Way, or perhaps the middle of the Middle Way. One of the first things I've learned about Buddhism after left Theravada and then the FWBO, is that no matter how negative these gurus may be or how misled we have been by their teachings, we should not let their shadow haunt us too much or too long. One of the first things I did after I left the FWBO, was to put all the Sangharakshita books (including the Mitratas) I have in a large box and threw them into the dumper. It was like a coming of age passage rite after which to learned to think for myself. That was the beginning of my rediscovery of Buddhism. BTW Robert I would love to read your article on "The Best Thus Far Discovered": The Japanese in the Letters of Francisco Xavier Hispanic Review, Vol. 71, No. 2 (Spring, 2003), pp. 155-169. Francus Xavier visited Malacca (my hometown) but found it to be "thge Babylon of the east." So he took off his sandals and dusted them off as he was leaving, cursing. The Portuguese fell in Malacca, which was taken over by the Dutrch, which was then handed over to the British during the Napoleonic war. Any hindsight into the above article (I have yet to read it). I have an ongoing interest in how religions (incl Bsm) colonized Asia and its aftermath. To all those who have been through the realms of the asuras and pretas, and returned. Piya Tan On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 6:07 AM, Robert Ellis wrote: > Piya Tan wrote: > < calling oneself a Buddhist is the other. (I thought you are a > Dharmachari.)>> > > If you mean dharmachari in the specific sense of member of the Western Buddhist Order, then I used to be one but resigned a year ago. I am now a follower of the Middle Way but not a Buddhist, because it became clear to me that most Buddhists do not give priority to the Middle Way, and are not prepared to let go of the many aspects of Buddhist tradition that conflict with it. The label "Buddhist" just became a burden, and I was struggling against the traditionalists in the Order all the time. > > Best wishes, > Robert > > > Robert Ellis > > website: www.moralobjectivity.net > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From jkirk at spro.net Wed Mar 4 20:30:32 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 20:30:32 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Dating of the Historical Buddha--a review article by Lance Cousins Message-ID: http://indology.info/papers/cousins/ (A review article of The Dating of the Historical Buddha. Die Datierung des Historischen Buddha.Edited by Heinz Bechert. 2 Vols (of 3). (Symposium zur Buddhismusforschung, IV, 1-2) pp. xv + 525; x + 530. G?ttingen, Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1991-2. DM 310, 256.) Maybe some list members (such as yours truly) haven't come across this article about a much discussed and analysed topic. Joanna From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Wed Mar 4 20:42:09 2009 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 11:42:09 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Dating of the Historical Buddha--a review article byLance Cousins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And there is also widespread disagreement about the time of the year of the Buddha's birth, enlightenment and parinirvana. Any study on that? W.F. Wong > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of jkirk > Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:31 AM > To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' > Subject: [Buddha-l] Dating of the Historical Buddha--a review article > byLance Cousins > > http://indology.info/papers/cousins/ > > (A review article of The Dating of the Historical Buddha. Die > Datierung des Historischen Buddha.Edited by Heinz Bechert. 2 Vols > (of 3). (Symposium zur Buddhismusforschung, IV, 1-2) pp. xv + > 525; x + 530. G?ttingen, Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1991-2. DM 310, > 256.) > > > Maybe some list members (such as yours truly) haven't come across > this article about a much discussed and analysed topic. > > Joanna > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Wed Mar 4 21:15:06 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 21:15:06 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] means of ego-inflation In-Reply-To: <8CB6B2CAEED0FE0-1470-96A6@FRR1-L28.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB6B2CAEED0FE0-1470-96A6@FRR1-L28.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <9B3FC1EBEA124AE684B4B1387B52EEA4@OPTIPLEX> If you mean dharmachari in the specific sense of member of the Western Buddhist Order, then I used to be one but resigned a year ago. I am now a follower of the Middle Way but not a Buddhist, because it became clear to me that most Buddhists do not give priority to the Middle Way, and are not prepared to let go of the many aspects of Buddhist tradition that conflict with it. The label "Buddhist" just became a burden, and I was struggling against the traditionalists in the Order all the time. Best wishes, Robert Robert Ellis =================== Interesting.....would you give a few examples of some aspects of --what--"official" Buddhism--that conflict with the Middle Way. I could think of some, But you've given it a lot more thought certainly than I have, so how about it? Thanks, Joanna From tatelman at rogers.com Wed Mar 4 21:38:32 2009 From: tatelman at rogers.com (Joel Tatelman) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 23:38:32 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] [Bulk] Re: Dating of the Historical Buddha--a review article byLance Cousins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9743F195-52A8-4430-A17C-EF97A18CA7F2@rogers.com> The articles in the volumes edited by Bechert discuss exactly those topics, though overall there may be greater interest in the date of the parinirv??a. Cheers, Joel Tatelman. On 4-Mar-09, at 10:42 PM, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > And there is also widespread disagreement about the time of the > year of the > Buddha's birth, enlightenment and parinirvana. Any study on that? > > W.F. Wong > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- >> bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of jkirk >> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:31 AM >> To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' >> Subject: [Buddha-l] Dating of the Historical Buddha--a review article >> byLance Cousins >> >> http://indology.info/papers/cousins/ >> >> (A review article of The Dating of the Historical Buddha. Die >> Datierung des Historischen Buddha.Edited by Heinz Bechert. 2 Vols >> (of 3). (Symposium zur Buddhismusforschung, IV, 1-2) pp. xv + >> 525; x + 530. G?ttingen, Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1991-2. DM 310, >> 256.) >> >> >> Maybe some list members (such as yours truly) haven't come across >> this article about a much discussed and analysed topic. >> >> Joanna >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Wed Mar 4 22:54:37 2009 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 13:54:37 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Dating of the Historical Buddha--a reviewarticle byLance Cousins In-Reply-To: <9743F195-52A8-4430-A17C-EF97A18CA7F2@rogers.com> References: <9743F195-52A8-4430-A17C-EF97A18CA7F2@rogers.com> Message-ID: <77E64E71B12B4A1DAD2B2F9E93FAF04E@comp.nus.edu.sg> Sorry for not reading the original text. But it is the paper by Gombrich on the same site: http://indology.info/papers/gombrich/ that fascinated me more :) W.F. Wong > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Joel Tatelman > Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 12:39 PM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] [Bulk] Re: Dating of the Historical Buddha--a > reviewarticle byLance Cousins > > The articles in the volumes edited by Bechert discuss exactly those > topics, though overall there may be greater interest in the date of > the parinirva?a. > > Cheers, > > Joel Tatelman. > > > On 4-Mar-09, at 10:42 PM, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > > > And there is also widespread disagreement about the time of the > > year of the > > Buddha's birth, enlightenment and parinirvana. Any study on that? > > > > W.F. Wong > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > >> bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of jkirk > >> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:31 AM > >> To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' > >> Subject: [Buddha-l] Dating of the Historical Buddha--a review article > >> byLance Cousins > >> > >> http://indology.info/papers/cousins/ > >> > >> (A review article of The Dating of the Historical Buddha. Die > >> Datierung des Historischen Buddha.Edited by Heinz Bechert. 2 Vols > >> (of 3). (Symposium zur Buddhismusforschung, IV, 1-2) pp. xv + > >> 525; x + 530. G?ttingen, Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1991-2. DM 310, > >> 256.) > >> > >> > >> Maybe some list members (such as yours truly) haven't come across > >> this article about a much discussed and analysed topic. > >> > >> Joanna > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> buddha-l mailing list > >> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From charku at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 09:04:13 2009 From: charku at gmail.com (charlie) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 08:04:13 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] means of ego-inflation In-Reply-To: <9B3FC1EBEA124AE684B4B1387B52EEA4@OPTIPLEX> References: <8CB6B2CAEED0FE0-1470-96A6@FRR1-L28.sis.aol.com> <9B3FC1EBEA124AE684B4B1387B52EEA4@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <84eac1310903050804t3595d160sedc37513760968a@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, A bit of lay Buddhist commentary, label notwithstanding ;-). At one point, long ago, stopped calling myself Buddhist...Buddhism was, to me at that time, as much a culture as a religion. I told folks who asked, "I take refuge in the 3 jeweled Buddha" or "I take refuge in the Buddha" refusing the label. Now people push back, "what does that mean?" or "Isn't that another way to say you are Buddhist?" So, now, I have stopped all that. Certainly, I am a middle way follower {in fact a "no path" follower}. But this is all academic to the folks around me; so I call myself Buddhist and qualify the hell out of it in my own head and hope to not further confuse my friends. - Charlie On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 8:15 PM, jkirk wrote: > > If you mean dharmachari in the specific sense of member of the > Western Buddhist Order, then I used to be one but resigned a year > ago. I am now a follower of the Middle Way but not a Buddhist, > because it became clear to me that most Buddhists do not give > priority to the Middle Way, and are not prepared to let go of the > many aspects of Buddhist tradition that conflict with it. The > label "Buddhist" just became a burden, and I was struggling > against the traditionalists in the Order all the time. > > Best wishes, > Robert > > > Robert Ellis > =================== > Interesting.....would you give a few examples of some aspects of > --what--"official" Buddhism--that conflict with the Middle Way. I > could think of some, But you've given it a lot more thought > certainly than I have, so how about it? > > Thanks, > Joanna > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From info at bcarral.org Wed Mar 4 09:26:43 2009 From: info at bcarral.org (Ben Carral) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 17:26:43 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Means of ego inflation In-Reply-To: <49AE91A1.7090306@cola.iges.org> References: <26595.194.109.68.114.1236155453.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <49AE91A1.7090306@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1312856555.20090304172643@bcarral.org> As far as I can tell, the two only selfish problems according to Buddhism is (1) to believe that there is an eternal and unchanging self, and (2) to believe that there is not self at all. So there is not problem in knowing that one knows more or less than others, that is just how things are, and that's why there are students and teachers. Maybe the question could be reformulated like this, "Are Buddhists scholars more prone that non-scholars to _believe_ that they know more than they actually know?" -- Ben Asturias, Spain From robertertman at msn.com Wed Mar 4 21:50:49 2009 From: robertertman at msn.com (Robert Ertman) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 23:50:49 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] ego-inflation & "official" Buddhism In-Reply-To: <9B3FC1EBEA124AE684B4B1387B52EEA4@OPTIPLEX> References: <8CB6B2CAEED0FE0-1470-96A6@FRR1-L28.sis.aol.com> <9B3FC1EBEA124AE684B4B1387B52EEA4@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: all black zendo? my official Buddhist cushion rejected -- Robert Ertman (bottle rockets, issue # 19) From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Thu Mar 5 15:01:04 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 17:01:04 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. Means of ego-inflation Message-ID: <8CB6BF502010E6D-16AC-D45@FRR5-L27.sis.aol.com> Joanna Kirk wrote: >>Interesting.....would you give a few examples of some aspects of --what--"official" Buddhism--that conflict with the Middle Way.<< Here goes: 1. The appeal to others' enlightened states as a source of knowledge 2. The doctrine of karma (as distinct from ordinary consequences of actions) 3. Rebirth 4. The appeal to gurus (as?distinct from?more advanced spiritual friends) 5. Monasticism, and associated division of spiritual goals between monastics and lay 6. Dukkha, impermanence, pratityasamutpada etc, when interpreted as metaphysical truths about the universe 7. Constant appeals to purity (as opposed to transformation) in scripture and ritual language All of the straying is onto the eternalist side, and consists in appeal to grounds of belief and sources of value that are beyond experience. This then becomes a fertile ground for dogmatism. In my experience, Buddhists are often reluctant to let go of these things because they fear a descent into nihilism without them. But it is holding onto metaphysical "truths" that creates nihilism in reaction, not the Middle Way. Followers of the Middle Way need to avoid certainty against the value of the things on the above list?just as much, but investigate what they offer in terms of experience. For more details and arguments see my website! Robert Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net From curt at cola.iges.org Thu Mar 5 15:07:31 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 17:07:31 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. Means of ego-inflation In-Reply-To: <8CB6BF502010E6D-16AC-D45@FRR5-L27.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB6BF502010E6D-16AC-D45@FRR5-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <49B04D23.8010208@cola.iges.org> Omigods. You mean the *Buddha* was one of those nasty "official" Buddhists? Shoulda known. Curt Robert Ellis wrote: > Joanna Kirk wrote: > >>> Interesting.....would you give a few examples of some aspects of >>> > --what--"official" Buddhism--that conflict with the Middle Way.<< > > Here goes: > 1. The appeal to others' enlightened states as a source of knowledge > 2. The doctrine of karma (as distinct from ordinary consequences of actions) > 3. Rebirth > 4. The appeal to gurus (as?distinct from?more advanced spiritual friends) > 5. Monasticism, and associated division of spiritual goals between monastics and lay > 6. Dukkha, impermanence, pratityasamutpada etc, when interpreted as metaphysical truths about the universe > 7. Constant appeals to purity (as opposed to transformation) in scripture and ritual language > > All of the straying is onto the eternalist side, and consists in appeal to grounds of belief and sources of value that are beyond experience. This then becomes a fertile ground for dogmatism. > > In my experience, Buddhists are often reluctant to let go of these things because they fear a descent into nihilism without them. But it is holding onto metaphysical "truths" that creates nihilism in reaction, not the Middle Way. Followers of the Middle Way need to avoid certainty against the value of the things on the above list?just as much, but investigate what they offer in terms of experience. > > For more details and arguments see my website! > Robert > > > Robert Ellis > > website: www.moralobjectivity.net > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Mar 5 16:39:21 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 18:39:21 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] China and Tibet References: <9743F195-52A8-4430-A17C-EF97A18CA7F2@rogers.com> <77E64E71B12B4A1DAD2B2F9E93FAF04E@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <00d501c99deb$9c3675e0$2101a8c0@Dan> In today's NY Times. Band Says Beijing Canceled Concert Over Tibet By EDWARD WONG Published: March 5, 2009 BEIJING - The popular British rock band Oasis has said that the Chinese government canceled the band's scheduled debut concerts in China because a band member appeared at a Free Tibet concert in New York in 1997. Read the rest at http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/06/world/asia/06tibet.html Dan Lusthaus From wbelanger at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 16:32:57 2009 From: wbelanger at gmail.com (Warner Belanger) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 18:32:57 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fair Use behind Closed Classroom Doors Message-ID: Hello everyone, Regarding Franz's question: 1) What is the current limit on "fair use" in academia? Last I checked, restrictions were so onerous that Cal State LA (a very large and, I reckon, sue-able institution) made it almost impossible for me to reprint anything useful in a reader. I took to using *only* web resources and skipping printing altogether. Which leads to... I found that putting together a reader nowadays also to be impossible. This surprised me, but it's been a long time since I actually purchased a reader. I think that the following guidelines for copyright at enlightening to look at, particularly given Georgia's recent past with copyright battles. http://www.usg.edu/legal/copyright/ I believe the relevant section is the following: *2. Posting Copyrighted Article to Web Page* *SCENARIO F:* A professor has posted his class notes on a Web page available to the public. He wants to scan an article from a copyrighted journal and add it to his Web page. QUESTION: Is this a fair use? ANSWER: It depends. If access to his Web page is restricted, then this is a fair use. If access is not limited, then this use is probably not a fair use. No exclusively educational purpose can be guaranteed by putting the article on the Web, and such conduct would arguably violate the copyright holder's right of public distribution. Finally, last year I had MIT students as roommates. I think they would not have been eager to purchase $150 books unless absolutely necessary. Best, Warner From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon Mar 9 11:54:42 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 12:54:42 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] China clamping down on Tibet References: Message-ID: <007401c9a0e0$205c5410$2101a8c0@Dan> And more on the Chinese treatment of Tibet, from today's NYTimes. Dan China Tightens Security in Tibet By EDWARD WONG Published: March 9, 2009 BEIJING - Security forces have increased patrols in central Tibet and vigilance along international borders ahead of a sensitive anniversary to guard against possible disruptions caused by followers of the Dalai Lama or Western groups advocating Tibetan independence, according to state news reports on Monday. The reports were the most detailed acknowledgment so far by the government that it has clamped down on the Tibetan regions. read the rest at http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/10/world/asia/10tibet.html?hp From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon Mar 9 13:52:58 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 14:52:58 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] new survey of religion in the USA -- the irreligious vs the evangelicals References: <007401c9a0e0$205c5410$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <00a601c9a0f0$a59bb4d0$2101a8c0@Dan> Since this list frequently muses over such surveys, here is the latest. Notice Buddhists were not mentioned (nor were Jews), but Muslims, Mormons and Wikkans are. From curt at cola.iges.org Mon Mar 9 13:54:07 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 15:54:07 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] new survey of religion in the USA -- the irreligious vs the evangelicals In-Reply-To: <00a601c9a0f0$a59bb4d0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <007401c9a0e0$205c5410$2101a8c0@Dan> <00a601c9a0f0$a59bb4d0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <49B573DF.4070203@cola.iges.org> The full report includes Buddhists, but does not count Wiccans separately at all - rather they are lumped in with New Religious Movements. Unlike past ARIS reports, Hindus are also not counted separately - but rather are lumped into "Eastern Religions", along with Zoroastrians, Taoists, Shintoists, Bahais, Sikkhs AND Buddhists. (That is, Buddhists "appear" twice - once in our own separate category, a privilege not granted to Wiccans and Hindus - and once under "Eastern Religions".) Curt Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Since this list frequently muses over such surveys, here is the latest. > Notice Buddhists were not mentioned (nor were Jews), but Muslims, Mormons > and Wikkans are. > > From the Washington Post. > > Dan > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/08/AR2009030801967.html?hpid=topnews > or > http://tinyurl.com/d3em7n > > [excerpts -- go the url to get all the details] > > 15 Percent of Americans Have No Religion > Fewer Call Themselves Christians; Nondenominational Identification Increases > > By Michelle Boorstein > Washington Post Staff Writer > Monday, March 9, 2009; Page A04 > > The percentage of Americans who call themselves Christians has dropped > dramatically over the past two decades, and those who do are increasingly > identifying themselves without traditional denomination labels, according to > a major study of U.S. religion being released today. > > The survey of more than 54,000 people conducted between February and > November of last year showed that the percentage of Americans identifying as > Christians has dropped to 76 percent of the population, down from 86 percent > in 1990. > [But note:] > Those who do call themselves Christian are more frequently describing > themselves as "nondenominational" "evangelical" or "born again," according > to the American Religious Identification Survey. > > [skipping ahead, music to Richard's ear] > > The only group that grew in every U.S. state since the 2001 survey was > people saying they had "no" religion; the survey says this group is now 15 > percent of the population. Silk said this group is likely responsible for > the shrinking percentage of Christians in the United States. > > Northern New England has surpassed the Pacific Northwest as the least > religious section of the country; 34 percent of Vermont residents say they > have "no religion." The report said that the country has a "growing > non-religious or irreligious minority." Twenty-seven percent of those > interviewed said they did not expect to have a religious funeral or service > when they died, and 30 percent of people who had married said their service > was not religious. Those questions weren't asked in previous surveys. > > [and we now have a new Christian "mystery"] > > The survey reflects a key question that demographers, sociologists and > political scientists have been asking in recent years: Who makes up this > growing group of evangelicals? Forty-four percent of America's 77 million > Christian adults say they are born again or evangelical. Meanwhile, 18 > percent of Catholics also chose that label, as did 40 percent of mainline > Christians. > > "If people call themselves 'evangelical,' it doesn't tell you as much as you > think it tells you about what kind of church they go to," Silk said. "It > deepens the conundrum about who evangelicals are." > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jhubbard at email.smith.edu Mon Mar 9 14:07:14 2009 From: jhubbard at email.smith.edu (Jamie Hubbard) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 16:07:14 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conference @ Smith College: Buddhism in Mongolia, Rebirth and Transformation In-Reply-To: References: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E081F3636@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu><28265EB2AD994D78AE4AB5D85AF75F70@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <49B576F2.1050407@email.smith.edu> Smith College, the Five College Buddhist Studies faculty, and the Manjushri Institute of Buddhist Studies invite you to attend a conference March 27th-March 29th, 2009 on "Buddhism in Mongolia: Rebirth and Transformation." After nearly seventy years of Soviet communist control, Mongolia is the first Central/Inner Asian Buddhist country to enjoy religious freedom, and the struggle and challenges to rejuvenate Buddhist traditions are many. More than twenty specialists in history, religion, anthropology, and art from Mongolia, Russia, Europe, and North America will share their current research and insights on Mongolian Buddhist art, the history of Buddhism in Mongolia, and the fascinating process of rebirth and transformation taking place in contemporary Mongolian Buddhism. There will also be an exhibition of art by the leading woman artist of Mongolia and other performances that will take place during the conference. All events are free and open to the public, but seating is limited and registration is required; please visit http://www.smith.edu/buddhism/mongolia for more information and online registration. Jamie Hubbard, Smith College Please excuse the cross-posting of this message. From jkirk at spro.net Mon Mar 9 14:59:48 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 14:59:48 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] A link to material most of us would never get a a chance to read Message-ID: <581B5F8DBDD04D2793745AFEE085C51B@OPTIPLEX> Warner Belanger just included this link with a reply to a query I had, and it looks like a lot of interesting reading. So here it is, his Publications, FYI: http://alexissanderson.com/aboutus.aspx Joanna From Jackhat1 at aol.com Tue Mar 10 12:49:19 2009 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:49:19 EDT Subject: [Buddha-l] Pali Sutta Message-ID: I remember a sutta where the Buddha says, if there is life after death, we should each live our present life as best as we can. If there is not life after death, we should also live our present life the best way we can. So, why debate life after death. Anyone know which sutta this is? Or is a figment of my imagination? Jack **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) From jayarava at yahoo.com Tue Mar 10 13:49:46 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Pali Sutta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <701630.71251.qm@web51411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 10/3/09, Jackhat1 at aol.com wrote: >I remember a sutta where the Buddha says, if there is life > after death, we should each live our present life as best as we can. > You may be thinking of the K?l?ma Sutta - towards the end. Jayarava From kansei at shingonan.de Tue Mar 10 13:20:12 2009 From: kansei at shingonan.de (Kansei) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:20:12 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pali Sutta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49B6BD6C.3070501@shingonan.de> Hi Jack, maybe you have a passage from the Kalama Sutta in remembrance. Sounds very much like the 1st and 2nd assurance which the Buddha speaks about at the end of the sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html Maybe you also want to have a look at Piya's work and translation of the sutta (see on page 30: the four self-assurances) http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/an.guttaranikaaya Hope that helps! Mike Jackhat1 at aol.com wrote: > I remember a sutta where the Buddha says, if there is life after death, we > should each live our present life as best as we can. If there is not life > after death, we should also live our present life the best way we can. So, why > debate life after death. Anyone know which sutta this is? Or is a figment of my > imagination? > > Jack > **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a > recession. > (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From Jackhat1 at aol.com Tue Mar 10 15:16:42 2009 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 17:16:42 EDT Subject: [Buddha-l] Pali Sutta Message-ID: In a message dated 3/10/2009 3:05:46 P.M. Central Daylight Time, kansei at shingonan.de writes: maybe you have a passage from the Kalama Sutta in remembrance. Sounds very much like the 1st and 2nd assurance which the Buddha speaks about at the end of the sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html Maybe you also want to have a look at Piya's work and translation of the sutta (see on page 30: the four self-assurances) _http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/an.guttaranikaaya_ (http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/an.guttaranikaaya) === Thanks Mike and Jayarava, That looks like it. jack **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) From curt at cola.iges.org Tue Mar 10 18:29:05 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:29:05 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pali Sutta In-Reply-To: <701630.71251.qm@web51411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <701630.71251.qm@web51411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49B705D1.4070203@cola.iges.org> This is actually a common "trope" found in many philosophical/spiritual writings. Socrates/Plato pulls it out in the Phaedo, and other Greek/Roman philosophers made use of the argument as well. But here is the relevant part of the Kalama Sutra (taken from here: http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/kalama1.htm): *The Four Solaces* 17. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom four solaces are found here and now. "'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him. "'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him. "'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him. "'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found." Curt Jayarava wrote: > --- On Tue, 10/3/09, Jackhat1 at aol.com wrote: > > >> I remember a sutta where the Buddha says, if there is life >> after death, we should each live our present life as best as we can. >> >> > > You may be thinking of the K?l?ma Sutta - towards the end. > > Jayarava > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Thu Mar 12 03:32:28 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 05:32:28 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. Pali Sutta Message-ID: <8CB710C98066AA5-1490-3F1C@FRR3-L27.sis.aol.com> Curt Steinmetz wrote: >>This is actually a common "trope" found in many philosophical/spiritual writings. Socrates/Plato pulls it out in the Phaedo, and other Greek/Roman philosophers made use of the argument as well.? ? But here is the relevant part of the Kalama Sutra (taken from here:? http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/kalama1.htm):? ? *The Four Solaces*? ? 17. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom four solaces are found here and now.? ? "'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.? ? "'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him.? ? "'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him.? ? "'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him.? ? "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found."?<< Surely this is another version of Pascal's wager? Whether or not there is reward and punishment hereafter, we are told?we should hedge our bets. What this does not take into account is the distracting nature of belief in the afterlife, the attachment it creates, and the energy put into maintaining and defending belief in it. Whether or not any afterlife exists, bothering with it may be a bad thing, and this kind of argument encourages us?to give it unhelpful head-space. This approach also begs the question. If it makes so little difference to our behaviour whether we believe in karma and rebirth, why the continued use and defence?of karma and rebirth in much of the rest of the Buddha's writings, and in the Buddhist tradition generally? This passage pretty much confirms that karma and rebirth is metaphysical speculation on a par with beliefs about the infinity and eternality of the universe, as avoided in the Potthapada Sutta. Doubtless it has been traditionally interpreted to help reconcile doubters to the traditional dharma, by being taken to mean that they should practise the dharma anyway even if they don't believe in karma and rebirth, but it can?also lead one to the conclusion that karma and rebirth is at best completely irrelevant to the spiritual life, so the traditional dharma thus contains major inconsistencies. Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net From jayarava at yahoo.com Thu Mar 12 04:26:20 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 03:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. Pali Sutta In-Reply-To: <8CB710C98066AA5-1490-3F1C@FRR3-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <228610.58423.qm@web51403.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Robert Ellis wrote: > Surely this is another version of Pascal's wager? The Buddha predates Pascal, so surely Pascal had a version of the K?l?ma Sutta? > What this does not take into account is the distracting nature of belief > in the afterlife, the attachment it creates, and the energy put > into maintaining and defending belief in it. Whether or not > any afterlife exists, bothering with it may be a bad thing, > and this kind of argument encourages us?to give it unhelpful > head-space. In the case of traditional Buddhism it is precisely the belief that one will have to live out all of the consequences of one's actions that motivates one to practice ethics. You seem to think that a rational approach will be motivating, but it won't (and when has it ever) because we aren't rational animals. Note that the Buddha in the text is not concerned with what people believe as long as it motivates them to be ethical. This is the pragmatic approach. > This approach also begs the question. If it makes so little > difference to our behaviour whether we believe in karma and > rebirth, why the continued use and defence?of karma and > rebirth in much of the rest of the Buddha's writings, > and in the Buddhist tradition generally? I think the Buddha was bound to follow this as it was the overriding belief in Magadha at the time. You're making an assumption here. Something like: a statement has to be verifiably true in order for it to motivate us or make a difference in our life. You want us to believe that not believing things will be good for us. This is a metaphysic. It doesn't matter if there is karma or not for instance. Whether we can prove it or not is irrelevant. We continue to use and defend karma because it is *useful* in motivating people to be ethical. We need not prove it or disprove it, we need only point to the behaviour of people who believe it and show that they tend to be ethical when they keep it in mind. That is to say karma is pragmatic, not scientific. Actually the people who I find most inspiring and would wish to emulate (I'm thinking in terms of kindness, generosity, friendliness, calm, joy, emotional robustness etc) are not people who seem to follow your program. So it's possible to be an admirable human being, even an exemplary human being, while taking metaphysics quite seriously and accepting any number of metaphysical speculations. Which from a pragmatic point of view seriously undermines your project - how can they be so admirable if they are getting things so very wrong? It's this as much as anything that shows the flaws in your anti-metaphysical ideology. It lacks something; it lacks heart. It also lacks exemplars. I think this is why you have struggled to convince people to follow you. But best of luck with it. Jayarava From jkirk at spro.net Thu Mar 12 05:26:39 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 05:26:39 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. Means of ego-inflation In-Reply-To: <8CB6BF502010E6D-16AC-D45@FRR5-L27.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB6BF502010E6D-16AC-D45@FRR5-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: Joanna Kirk wrote: >>Interesting.....would you give a few examples of some aspects of --what--"official" Buddhism--that conflict with the Middle Way.<< Here goes: 1. The appeal to others' enlightened states as a source of knowledge 2. The doctrine of karma (as distinct from ordinary consequences of actions) 3. Rebirth 4. The appeal to gurus (as?distinct from?more advanced spiritual friends) 5. Monasticism, and associated division of spiritual goals between monastics and lay 6. Dukkha, impermanence, pratityasamutpada etc, when interpreted as metaphysical truths about the universe 7. Constant appeals to purity (as opposed to transformation) in scripture and ritual language All of the straying is onto the eternalist side, and consists in appeal to grounds of belief and sources of value that are beyond experience. This then becomes a fertile ground for dogmatism. In my experience, Buddhists are often reluctant to let go of these things because they fear a descent into nihilism without them. But it is holding onto metaphysical "truths" that creates nihilism in reaction, not the Middle Way. Followers of the Middle Way need to avoid certainty against the value of the things on the above list?just as much, but investigate what they offer in terms of experience. For more details and arguments see my website! Robert Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net ================================ Yep--metaphysics bugs me too, annother form of essentialism that obscures the path. As for rebirth, as I've noted before, Ven. Buddhadasa's concept of it is pragmatic, not metaphysical. If you haven't tried it yet, see his _Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree_. Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Thu Mar 12 05:46:33 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 05:46:33 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. Pali Sutta In-Reply-To: <228610.58423.qm@web51403.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <8CB710C98066AA5-1490-3F1C@FRR3-L27.sis.aol.com> <228610.58423.qm@web51403.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <906BB508468F46FEAC88730B58E2FCBE@OPTIPLEX> It's this as much as anything that shows the flaws in your anti-metaphysical ideology. It lacks something; it lacks heart. It also lacks exemplars. I think this is why you have struggled to convince people to follow you. But best of luck with it. Jayarava ====================== It is systems, as well as some people, that lack heart, in my experience anyway. Metaphysical ontologies also lack heart, while mystical ones do seem to motivate. As for exemplars, women and men of virtues-- such as honesty, patience, kindness, equanimity, right-livelihood, and the rest don't seem to be widely collected across any of these platforms, including legacy Buddhist ones. Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Thu Mar 12 07:55:24 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 07:55:24 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. Means of ego-inflation Message-ID: <0153276A007349FA976228BDD84B5EB8@OPTIPLEX> For more details and arguments see my website! Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net ================================ Yep--metaphysics bugs me too, annother form of essentialism that obscures the path. As for rebirth, as I've noted before, Ven. Buddhadasa's concept of it is pragmatic, not metaphysical. If you haven't tried it yet, see his _Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree_. Joanna From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Thu Mar 12 17:44:34 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:44:34 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pali Sutta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CB7183A0AE06EE-1490-547C@FRR3-L27.sis.aol.com> Jayarava wrote, >>In the case of traditional Buddhism it is precisely the belief that one will have to live out all of the consequences of one's actions that motivates one to practice ethics. You seem to think that a rational approach will be motivating, but it won't (and when has it ever) because we aren't rational animals. Note that the Buddha in the text is not concerned with what people believe as long as it motivates them to be ethical. This is the pragmatic approach.<< Hello Jayarava, good to hear from you again. I think what you're saying here involves a false dichotomy between the "rational" and the non-rational. I don't think that a purely "rational" approach will be motivating, if rational means based on narrow intellectual motives which exclude awareness of emotional conditions. Taking into account the non-rational, however, does not mean running into the arms of dogma. People are neither completely rational nor completely irrational, but rational to some extent, and that extent can be developed. Nor is it pragmatic (except in a very narrow sense) to adopt what we can appreciate as a falsehood on the assumption that it will be useful and motivating. It?may be useful and motivating only in the light of narrow assumptions which will have a regressive effect in other respects. To educated, Westernised populations it will not be useful at all. Who is actually motivated by belief in karma and rebirth, amongst the highly-educated readers of this list for example,?to do anything better than they would have done it otherwise anyway? A consideration of conditions and of the consequences of our actions may motivate us, but that does not require a belief in the law of karma. >>We continue to use and defend karma because it is *useful* in motivating people to be ethical. We need not prove it or disprove it, we need only point to the behaviour of people who believe it and show that they tend to be ethical when they keep it in mind. That is to say karma is pragmatic, not scientific.<< I challenge you to give me a single specific example of an educated Western person who has been made more ethical by the law of karma specifically, as distinct from merely considering the consequences of actions! >>You're making an assumption here. Something like: a statement has to be verifiably true in order for it to motivate us or make a difference in our life. You want us to believe that not believing things will be good for us. This is a metaphysic.<< My assumption is much more subtle than this: that a?belief which cannot conceivably?be tested,?whether in terms of?individual or shared experience, whether the test is one of verification or falsification or even fruitful application, leads us away from conditions and towards dogma and attachment. It is only those kinds of belief that are not good for us: provisional beliefs, on the other?hand,?are positively required. This is not a metaphysic but a physic, a?provisional means of curing us of metaphysics. The only alternative to this, that I can see, is the belief you appear to hold that metaphysics is inevitable, which implies that?the Middle Way does not exist, and therefore that spiritual progress is impossible. If we can only formulate our beliefs in terms of the delusions that we think are useful, we can do nothing better than migrate between delusions. ?>>Actually the people who I find most inspiring and would wish to emulate (I'm thinking in terms of kindness, generosity, friendliness, calm, joy, emotional robustness etc) are not people who seem to follow your program. So it's possible to be an admirable human being, even an exemplary human being, while taking metaphysics quite seriously and accepting any number of metaphysical speculations. Which from a pragmatic point of view seriously undermines your project - how can they be so admirable if they are getting things so very wrong?<< I think you are interpreting my "program" in unduly narrow terms which make it appear dualistically opposed to the complexity of human motivation. People are motivated by things that they actually experience: I think one can state that point as obvious. Along with that experience, we all have a degree of unexamined metaphysical belief. If you closely examine those human beings you find admirable, I think you will find that what is admirable about them consists in the ways they have challenged the conventions or assumptions about them (whether these were rational or emotional assumptions) and had the courage to follow their experience against the pressure of the group. It is not their metaphysics which enables me to admire the Buddha, St Francis or whoever else, but the ways they went beyond it. >>It's this as much as anything that shows the flaws in your anti-metaphysical ideology. It lacks something; it lacks heart. It also lacks exemplars.<< On the contrary, the whole world furnishes us with examplars: not just those who follow a certain accepted brand of metaphysics, but anyone who has ever made spiritual progress by addressing their experience or challenging dogma. We could start with the Buddha himself in his discovery of the Middle Way. Nor does it intrinsically lack heart, given that it attempts to address all conditions including emotional conditions. Whether or not I have succeeded in addressing emotional conditions myself is another matter, which those who know me better should judge. Best wishes, Robert Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net From Bradley.clough at mso.umt.edu Thu Mar 12 21:15:25 2009 From: Bradley.clough at mso.umt.edu (Bradley Clough) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:15:25 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pali Sutta In-Reply-To: <8CB7183A0AE06EE-1490-547C@FRR3-L27.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB7183A0AE06EE-1490-547C@FRR3-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mar 12, 2009, at 5:44 PM, Robert Ellis wrote: ...To educated, Westernised populations it will not be useful at all. Who is actually motivated by belief in karma and rebirth, amongst the highly-educated readers of this list for example... > ...My assumption is much more subtle than this: that a?belief which > cannot conceivably?be tested,?whether in terms of?individual or > shared experience, whether the test is one of verification or > falsification or even fruitful application, leads us away from > conditions and towards dogma and attachment. Perhaps it is worth noting here that traditionally, many Buddhists have regarded karma and rebirth as experientially verifiable. Not that a majority of Buddhists have ever claimed to have reached these realizations, but many Buddhist traditions have maintained that one set of results stemming from attainment of the 4th jha?na is memory of one's own past lives and seeing other beings faring well or ill according to their deeds. Perhaps most of us "well-educated Western" types (a distinction I'm not comfortable with, as it seems to imply, intentionally or not, that traditional Asian Buddhists of various stripes are less educated [this may be so with respect to many modern Western definitions of what education entails, but surely there are many different ways to be educated, besides standard contemporary Western academic routes?] and somehow less capable of making sound assessments and judgments) don't buy into the reality of such superhuman insights, but it doesn't mean we should ignore what many Asians of different Buddhist traditions have maintained is indeed verifiable. Best Wishes, Brad Bradley Clough The University of Montana bradley.clough at mso.umt.edu From jayarava at yahoo.com Fri Mar 13 02:33:13 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 01:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Belief and metaphysics (was Pali Sutta) In-Reply-To: <8CB7183A0AE06EE-1490-547C@FRR3-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <416314.18639.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Robert Ellis wrote: > I think what you're saying here involves a false > dichotomy between the "rational" and the > non-rational. OK > Nor is it pragmatic (except in a very narrow sense) to > adopt what we can appreciate as a falsehood on the > assumption that it will be useful and motivating. Well hang on. You can't appreciate karma as a falsehood, you can only appreciate it as metaphysical! And, therefore, you can't know it to be true or false. The view that metaphysics are false is itself metaphysical. The fact is that the vast majority of Buddhists in the world *are* motivated by karma, and that it is therefore useful. You are as contrary as ever. > To educated, Westernised populations it will not > be useful at all. Who is actually motivated by belief in > karma and rebirth, amongst the highly-educated readers of > this list for example,?to do anything better than they would > have done it otherwise anyway? Buddha-L is a very unrepresentative cross section of people interested in Buddhism, many of whom are not Buddhists but only Buddhologists and therefore we would not expect them to be motivated by a Buddhist belief in the first place. You've problematised the whole situation based on your own reaction to it. I just don't believe you can show that it is, and must be a problem for everyone. > I challenge you to give me a single specific example of an > educated Western person who has been made more ethical by > the law of karma specifically, as distinct from merely > considering the consequences of actions! Saddharaja. The King of Faith totally believes in karma in an uncritical way, and is one of the most ethical people I know! One example. Remind me why we're limiting this to educated Westerners? > My assumption is much more subtle than this: that a?belief > which cannot conceivably?be tested,?whether in terms > of?individual or shared experience, whether the test is one > of verification or falsification or even fruitful > application, leads us away from conditions and towards dogma > and attachment. It is only those kinds of belief that are > not good for us: provisional beliefs, on the other?hand,?are > positively required. This is not a metaphysic but a physic, > a?provisional means of curing us of metaphysics. You define the problem in terms of metaphysics on the basis that a metaphysical belief can have no fruitful application (since we must accept that by definition it can't be verified or falsified). You do seem to have adopted a belief that metaphysics = false. If we are simply being critical of unthinking dogma as opposed to provisional beliefs then I don't see what the big deal is. > The only alternative to this, that I can see, is the belief > you appear to hold that metaphysics is inevitable, which > implies that?the Middle Way does not exist, and therefore > that spiritual progress is impossible. If we can only > formulate our beliefs in terms of the delusions that we > think are useful, we can do nothing better than migrate > between delusions. No, this is not quite what I believe. My view is that if believing something leads to ethical behaviour and an investigation of the processes of consciousness, then it doesn't matter if that belief involves metaphysics (or outright falsehood for that matter) or not. The follow on from this is a belief, based on my experience, that practice of ethics and meditation will sort any anomalies along the way. I've never understood your definition of the Middle Way and so I can't comment on what happens to it under these conditions. If indeed you think it does disappear, then I would have to say that I'm not much concerned because we are better off behaving ethically and examining our mental processes than any other combination of behaviours. And this was the point of the K?l?ma Sutta wasn't it? It is axiomatic in Buddhism that our beliefs are founded on delusion until such point as we have 'knowledge and vision of things as become'. Hence all beliefs are provisional. Your position sounds similar to Shinran - being deluded at all there is no way out of our delusion. Fortunately we are not entirely limited by our beliefs because we have the ability to examine and understand our experience. You are saying that belief condemns us to ignorance, and I am saying that the whole point of Buddhism is that of course we are deluded, but through practice we can be less deluded, and finally understand the arising of dhammas (which I take to be mental phenomena and therefore not ontological). > I think you are interpreting my "program" in > unduly narrow terms which make it appear dualistically > opposed to the complexity of human motivation. I'm so sorry. > It is not their metaphysics which enables me to admire the > Buddha, St Francis or whoever else, but the ways they went > beyond it. Is that really how you think? > On the contrary, the whole world furnishes us with > examplars: We could start with the Buddha himself in his > discovery of the Middle Way. But Robert this is just you defining the Buddha's victory in your own idiosyncratic way and celebrating your own view. There's no sense in which the reported words of the Buddha support your contention that he saw his program as overcoming metaphysics. The Buddha in the P?li texts (let alone in later s?tras!) accepts any number of metaphysical ideas: causation, karma, rebirth, good and evil, the list goes on! What can you be thinking of? > Nor does it intrinsically lack > heart, given that it attempts to address all conditions > including emotional conditions. Whether or not I have > succeeded in addressing emotional conditions myself is > another matter, which those who know me better should judge. Well I don't know you better, but I have read your presentation of your ideas... Best wishes Jayarava From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Mar 13 08:04:15 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:04:15 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pali Sutta In-Reply-To: <8CB7183A0AE06EE-1490-547C@FRR3-L27.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB7183A0AE06EE-1490-547C@FRR3-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <49BA67DF.5040301@cola.iges.org> Robert Ellis wrote: > > Nor is it pragmatic (except in a very narrow sense) to adopt what we can appreciate as a falsehood on the assumption that it will be useful and motivating. It?may be useful and motivating only in the light of narrow assumptions which will have a regressive effect in other respects. To educated, Westernised populations it will not be useful at all. Who is actually motivated by belief in karma and rebirth, amongst the highly-educated readers of this list for example,?to do anything better than they would have done it otherwise anyway? A consideration of conditions and of the consequences of our actions may motivate us, but that does not require a belief in the law of karma. > First of all we should avoid defining modernity too narrowly, and we should especially avoid defining it arbitrarily. Here is what I mean by "arbitrary": to include folks like Newton and Kepler when it is convenient to do so, but to exclude anything more than 50 or so years old when that is seen as more convenient to one's argument. But regardless of how we define things, we simply cannot by any reasonable stretch of the imagination insist that ideas that were "useful" to highly educated western people who lived in the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th centuries are now somehow wholly foreign, bizarre, incomprehensible, primitive, superstitious, or otherwise beyond the pale for us today. Of course some people might for their own reasons choose to reject ideas that were deemed useful by Kepler, Newton, Goethe, Schiller, Emerson, Blake, Leroux, Reynaud, etc. But that is a personal choice, not some absolute constraint dictated by the happenstance of the date and place of one's birth. In fact, the more "well-educated" we are the broader our thinking should be, and the greater should be our ability to comprehend, appreciate, sympathize with and even adopt different points of view. Curt From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Mar 13 11:39:44 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 12:39:44 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] The Buddha in his own words References: <8CB7183A0AE06EE-1490-547C@FRR3-L27.sis.aol.com> <49BA67DF.5040301@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <000f01c9a402$b2e4d1c0$2101a8c0@Dan> This play, purportedly based on Buddhavacana, with a thumbs up review from Bhikkhu Bodhi, is coming to Boston. I am wondering if this is a traveling show, and if so, if anyone has seen it and would like to share their thoughts. http://thebuddhaplay.com/ Dan From jayarava at yahoo.com Fri Mar 13 11:30:28 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Belief and metaphysics In-Reply-To: <8CB7183A0AE06EE-1490-547C@FRR3-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <686582.90107.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Robert, A more fundamental problem with what you are saying has occurred to me. You say: > My assumption is much more subtle than this: that a?belief which cannot > conceivably?be tested,?whether in terms of?individual or shared > experience, whether the test is one of verification or falsificatio n or > even fruitful application, leads us away from conditions and towards > dogma and attachment. It is only those kinds of belief that are not good > for us: provisional beliefs, on the other?hand,?are positively required. > This is not a metaphysic but a physic, a?provisional means of curing us > of metaphysics. On the one hand you argue that metaphysical beliefs are always problematic, something we need to be "cured" of. On the other hand you argue that metaphysical beliefs "leads us away from conditions and towards dogma and attachment" - that is to say you propose a causal relation between metaphysical beliefs and dogmatism. But causality is a metaphysical concept! So you cannot employ it in your argument without contradiction. If you do away with metaphysics then one thing cannot lead to another! Hume's dilemma. You also state that metaphysics or metaphysical beliefs can be "appreciably false" - this kind of true/false distinction is also metaphysical, isn't it? So in fact your own arguments rest on metaphysical concepts. Take them away and the whole thing falls down. This seems to be the main problem with rejecting all metaphysics. In fact, as I understand Kant proposed, the idea of causation is useful and can be fruitfully employed. As can other metaphysical concepts like space and time. I think we can also usefully employ a metaphysic of true and false. These may well lead to dogmatism, but they continue to be useful. Perhaps you dealt with these issues in your PhD but it's not clear that you have solved the problem in your writing here. Best wishes Jayarava From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Fri Mar 13 17:34:17 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 19:34:17 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] belief and metaphysics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CB724B5B9C71EA-978-1D60@FRR5-L27.sis.aol.com> Dear Jayarava (and others who have responded to me last post), The arguments are proliferating, and responding to them all?fully is becoming impractical. There have been several misunderstandings of what I wrote, and a lot of pouncing on minor points which are not actually that significant. In several places my?arguments appear to have been completely stood on their head so that?I am made to say the opposite of what I actually wrote (as in Jayarava's bizarre comparison of my views to Shinran, which can only be based on a complete misunderstanding). Let me try to summarise what I see as some of the main points in response. 1. I am referring to educated Westerners only in order to address what is relevant to most of the readers of this list and the culture they typify. This is not in any way a racial description, but one of a globalised shared set of intellectual attitudes typified by liberal democracy, scientific method etc. I think such relevance is important because it allows us to use Buddhists insights to address our lives as they are. I also think Western liberal democracy is already practising the Middle Way far more effectively than most traditional Buddhism ever did, evidenced by the conditions addressed by Western science, technology, medicine, human rights, democracy, and university education?that traditional Buddhist cultures never addressed. It is therefore important to identify what we in Western civilisation are doing right, rather than opposing it to a romanticised traditional Buddhism and overplaying our weaknesses. The complexity of modernity is also not a good reason for not ! attempting discussion of it, or for killing discussion of it with death by a thousand qualifications. 2. Jayarava is right to point out that by my own lights?I should not be describing karma as a falsehood. However, the context of what I was saying was that of him proposing that karma should be promoted for its alleged usefulness, whether it can be related to experience or not. My somewhat lax use of the word "falsehood" was intended to convey the dishonesty and short-termism of this approach, which for many people will not have the desired effect, and, where it does have the desired effect, will still be in danger of being discovered as a convenient fiction. Should we really be in the position of promoting doctrines we don't really believe in ourselves so as to keep the masses happy, offering a "noble lie" like that in Plato's Republic or the pages of Pravda? What makes it a "lie" in every functional sense is the fact that we don't believe it ourselves, not the possibility of proving it false. 3. Jayarava wrote <> Concepts of causality are not by definition metaphysical, and Hume was the first Western philosopher to try to use them in a way which refers only to patterns in our experience. However, he neglected the role of the mind in creating concepts of cause, and I am more inclined to agree with Kant that ideas of causation?depend on?a conceptual scheme as well as on experience. Kant's view of causality is also not metaphysical, but merely considers the requisite conditions for experience. Causal claims can avoid dogmatism of any kind if they are made with provisionality. 6. Finally, it is not correct that the Buddha has nothing to say in opposition to metaphysics. Look at the 14 "inexpressibles" (avyakata)?in the Potthapada Sutta, the Middle Way as?symbolised in the Buddha's life story before his enlightenment, the Kalama Sutta, and the parable of the raft in the Alagadupama Sutta. His reported?acceptance of some forms of metaphysics, such as karma and rebirth,?is indeed inconsistent with this. This is where one needs to choose between the Buddha's central insights and the?tradition which has transmitted them. With?best wishes to all, Robert ?? From brburl at charter.net Fri Mar 13 19:55:33 2009 From: brburl at charter.net (Bruce Burrill) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:55:33 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] The Buddha in his own words In-Reply-To: <000f01c9a402$b2e4d1c0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <8CB7183A0AE06EE-1490-547C@FRR3-L27.sis.aol.com> <49BA67DF.5040301@cola.iges.org> <000f01c9a402$b2e4d1c0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090313205520.05d7a9e0@charter.net> At 12:39 PM 3/13/2009, you wrote: >This play, purportedly based on Buddhavacana, with a thumbs up review from >Bhikkhu Bodhi, is coming to Boston. I am wondering if this is a traveling >show, and if so, if anyone has seen it and would like to share their >thoughts. > >http://thebuddhaplay.com/ > >Dan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuufwuD7Mr0 From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Mar 13 23:15:39 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 00:15:39 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] The Buddha in his own words References: <8CB7183A0AE06EE-1490-547C@FRR3-L27.sis.aol.com><49BA67DF.5040301@cola.iges.org><000f01c9a402$b2e4d1c0$2101a8c0@Dan> <7.0.1.0.2.20090313205520.05d7a9e0@charter.net> Message-ID: <38eb01c9a463$ea9487d0$2101a8c0@Dan> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuufwuD7Mr0 > Thanks, Bruce. He does seem able to animate the well-worn cliches (at least cliches by now for most of us). Not clear whether he will go beyond the well-worn, however. Might be fun for newbies. Dan PS I tend to agree with his take on Devadatta. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZGeuxHHACE&NR=1 From cfynn at gmx.net Fri Mar 13 22:37:06 2009 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 10:37:06 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pali Sutta In-Reply-To: <8CB7183A0AE06EE-1490-547C@FRR3-L27.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB7183A0AE06EE-1490-547C@FRR3-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <49BB3472.7050306@gmx.net> Robert Ellis wrote: > I challenge you to give me a single specific example of an educated > Western person who has been made more ethical by the law of karma > specifically, as distinct from merely considering the consequences > of actions! Isn't karma nothing more than that - intentional actions and their consequences? - Chris From jayarava at yahoo.com Sat Mar 14 01:57:07 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 00:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] belief and metaphysics In-Reply-To: <8CB724B5B9C71EA-978-1D60@FRR5-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <133795.170.qm@web51402.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Robert, Fine. I accept the clarifications of what you think you and I have said except for this one. > 6. Finally, it is not correct that the Buddha has nothing > to say in opposition to metaphysics. This is not what I said. I say that he readily accepted metaphysics where it suited him, or where he could not avoid them. But since you have defined these instances out of the mainstream you need not take them seriously. > This is where one needs to choose between the Buddha's central > insights and the?tradition which has transmitted them. Well you're not the first person to claim to know the difference. Good luck with that. Regards Jayarava From jkirk at spro.net Sat Mar 14 09:30:43 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 09:30:43 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] new book--the long view? Message-ID: <6F13A6BF4DD14C2E907139A360C2113E@OPTIPLEX> http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/display.lasso?-KeyValue=33066 &-Token.Action=Search&image=1 Kapstein, Matthew, ed. Buddhism Between Tibet and China. Wisdom Pubs. Has anyone seen this book? Any observations about it, especially considering less long view events? Joanna From marshallarts at bigpond.com Sat Mar 14 16:19:43 2009 From: marshallarts at bigpond.com (Kate Marshall) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 08:19:43 +1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pali Sutta References: <8CB7183A0AE06EE-1490-547C@FRR3-L27.sis.aol.com> <49BB3472.7050306@gmx.net> Message-ID: > Isn't karma nothing more than that - intentional actions and their > consequences? > - Chris Hi Chris, From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Sun Mar 15 07:56:55 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 09:56:55 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences Message-ID: <8CB738D08D2912F-F8C-3C7@FRR2-L27.sis.aol.com> Chris Fynn wrote: >>Isn't karma nothing more than that - intentional actions and their consequences??<< The claim that karma is nothing more than intentional actions and their consequences?is widely used (in my experience) by Western Buddhists to try to make karma palatable to Western audiences: but?this claim?is intellectually dishonest. The consequences of intentional actions are a necessary part of karmic doctrine, but by no means all of it. The metaphysical stuff gets smuggled in by stealth?through karma being presented in a common-sense fashion. The law of karma claims not only that intentional actions have consequences, but that they always have consequences which are an equivalent moral requital for the intentional action. For example, if we tell an intentional lie, at some point the equivalent karmic effects of that lie will get back at us, whether through mental processes (e.g. guilt) or physical ones (some form of physical suffering equivalent to the lie). We have no way of telling through experience whether this is the case, as some lies seem to have a bad effect, but others do not.?The world is also full of?good people dying of cancer, and nasty dictators living in happy retirement, which also suggest counter-examples. The acceptance of karma, then, whether or not it incorporates rebirth, is a faith response to a dogmatic teaching. It should not be confused with an appreciation of the effects of our mental states and our actions such as can be?directly experienced, and developed through meditation practice.? Best wishes, Robert Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net From dharmafarer at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 08:04:41 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 22:04:41 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <8CB738D08D2912F-F8C-3C7@FRR2-L27.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB738D08D2912F-F8C-3C7@FRR2-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: Robert, you need to state whether you are expressing your own opinion or which sutta/s you are citing. Piya On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 9:56 PM, Robert Ellis wrote: > Chris Fynn wrote: > > >>Isn't karma nothing more than that - intentional actions and their > consequences??<< > > The claim that karma is nothing more than intentional actions and their > consequences?is widely used (in my experience) by Western Buddhists to try > to make karma palatable to Western audiences: but?this claim?is > intellectually dishonest. The consequences of intentional actions are a > necessary part of karmic doctrine, but by no means all of it. The > metaphysical stuff gets smuggled in by stealth?through karma being presented > in a common-sense fashion. > > The law of karma claims not only that intentional actions have > consequences, but that they always have consequences which are an equivalent > moral requital for the intentional action. For example, if we tell an > intentional lie, at some point the equivalent karmic effects of that lie > will get back at us, whether through mental processes (e.g. guilt) or > physical ones (some form of physical suffering equivalent to the lie). We > have no way of telling through experience whether this is the case, as some > lies seem to have a bad effect, but others do not.?The world is also full > of?good people dying of cancer, and nasty dictators living in happy > retirement, which also suggest counter-examples. The acceptance of karma, > then, whether or not it incorporates rebirth, is a faith response to a > dogmatic teaching. It should not be confused with an appreciation of the > effects of our mental states and our actions such as can be?directly > experienced, and developed through meditation practice.? > > Best wishes, > Robert > > > Robert Ellis > > website: www.moralobjectivity.net > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From curt at cola.iges.org Sun Mar 15 09:00:10 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 11:00:10 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma (Re: Pali Sutta0 In-Reply-To: References: <8CB7183A0AE06EE-1490-547C@FRR3-L27.sis.aol.com> <49BB3472.7050306@gmx.net> Message-ID: <49BD17FA.1020100@cola.iges.org> "Karma" is not a Buddhist word. But there are various Buddhist theories of karma. One should be careful to distinguish between the basic meaning of karma and the theorizing that Buddhists do about karma. Technically (and actually) karma just means "action". The Buddha understood that "thoughts", including but not limited to intentional/volitional thoughts, are actions. In modern English we tend to associate action with physical action. In the process of correcting (from a Buddhist perspective) this too narrow view of "action", an incorrect impression is sometimes given that karma means a special kind of action, namely, action that is intentional - when in fact it means just plain old action, including thoughts, including thoughts of intention, including thoughts of intention that do not lead to physical actions. "Karma" does not mean only actions we "intend". It means all actions - or, more correctly, it just means action. An even bigger problem comes from another artificial, physicalist limitation that westerners usually place on the concept of action. Any action is a continuum that includes intention or whatever else was going on prior to the "doing" of the action. But this continuum also includes all the stuff that keeps happening after the "doing" of the action is completed. Westerners tend to fixate on the stuff that comes later and call that karma. Because the western conception of action is fragmented in this way we tend to view both "intentions" and "consequences" as separate from "action" - resulting in all kinds of weird actions. Curt Kate Marshall wrote: >> Isn't karma nothing more than that - intentional actions and their >> consequences? >> - Chris >> > > Hi Chris, > > From my understanding, Karma is intentional or volitional action. However, > their consequences or "fruit" is termed Karma Vipaka. > > Regards > Kate > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 10:10:58 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:10:58 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <8CB738D08D2912F-F8C-3C7@FRR2-L27.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB738D08D2912F-F8C-3C7@FRR2-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <1109259861.20090315171058@gmail.com> Robert wrote: RE> We have no way of telling through experience whether this is the RE> case, as some lies seem to have a bad effect, but others do RE> not.?The world is also full of?good people dying of cancer, and RE> nasty dictators living in happy retirement, which also suggest RE> counter-examples. The acceptance of karma, then, whether or not RE> it incorporates rebirth, is a faith response to a dogmatic RE> teaching. It should not be confused with an appreciation of the RE> effects of our mental states and our actions such as can RE> be?directly experienced, and developed through meditation practice. there is a confusion in your description. We are not accepting kamma doctrine as a way to validate our actual scientific position in the perceived world. With kamma we are accepting a valid way to explain the mind. Having accepting this method to polish the mind, then rebirth and other things becomes logical and unavoidable. In the same way that we cannot experience atoms, protons or Relativity theory but we accept these things because the inherent logics inside a position to understand the world. Here, also we are believing in such things because the enlightened states of some gurus (be called Einstein or whatever) not because our own experience. In the Kukkuravatika Sutta Buddha classifies kamma into four groups: 1. dark with a dark result; 2. bright with a bright result; 3. dark and bright with a dark and bright result; 4. neither dark nor bright with a neither dark nor bright result. the kamma of some action cannot be explained using just our memory of previous actions of body, because kamma involves thought, body and speech actions. We don't have memory of all this constant activity which surpass our understanding and the History of our -self. The belief in kamma must be used in the same way that our belief in the atoms existence; just because it can explain the solid, liquid and gas states, and therefore our perceived world. But we cannot experience atoms neither we can find the first cause of "this drop" of water; because the past History of the atoms in this drop surpass our understanding. The atomic panorama is just a logical belief to give us a satisfactory position to explain our reality. And the same happens with kamma regarding "this mind". The claim of rebirth as a "blind faith" follows a similar logics of Creationists. In any time there is people believing the things of this Reality appears by chance, some God, etc... The efforts of Buddha, Hume and many others cannot fructify in such type of mind. Probably for this reason there are other religions and explanations; to serve the progress of these minds until having better circumstances or a next life. best regards, From jayarava at yahoo.com Sun Mar 15 11:06:49 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 10:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <8CB738D08D2912F-F8C-3C7@FRR2-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <674462.32307.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Robert I'm with some of the other commentators in that I don't accept your definition of karma/vipaka. I don't advocate anything like that, and I'm not entirely sure who you have in your sights. Like Piya I wonder where you are drawing this definition from. On the other hand I did come up with an example of an educated westerner (that I think you know) who takes an uncritical view of the traditional explanation of karma and is moral as a result. This seemed to get lost in the rush to show that I had misinterpreted what you wrote - your perennial refrain. Is one counter-example enough to falsify your theory or are more required? I don't think people are as unsophisticated as you make out. And I think you underestimate the importance and positive effects of faith, even blind faith. A recent Time magazine article noted some interesting medical research results: for instance people who have some kind of faith (and most of the people studied were Christians who believed in God) tend to live longer and enjoy better health (on average) than those who do not. Faith communities tend to be happier at least in the ways in which happiness can be measured. The happiest people in the US are the Amish - one of the most dogmatic faith communities in the world. The discussion seems to be going along a familiar road, it must be very frustrating for you. Is there anyone else who understands and subscribes to your theory other than you, and could we hear from them? Because after some years of trying I still don't see why you are so dogmatic about your theory, or why defending your theory against all comers should have become such a big deal. Best wishes Jayarava From jkirk at spro.net Sun Mar 15 11:37:09 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 11:37:09 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] A great transition and deja vu ? Message-ID: <4D16B2B914354A7F93383DCF12340BE7@OPTIPLEX> http://www.well.com/user/davidu/cultural.html CULTURAL TRANSITION AND SPIRITUAL TRANSFORMATION: FROM ALEXANDER THE GREAT TO CYBERSPACE David Ulansey In, The Vision Thing: Myth, Politics, and Psyche in the World, edited by Thomas Singer (London and New York: Routledge, 2000) pp. 213-31. I've not read The Vision Thing..., but Ulansey has posted his contribution to that anthology on his website, and it's quite interesting. In fact, a lot of other aticles based on his classicist research can also be found on his website. Lots of intriguing reading. Main URL: http://www.well.com/user/davidu/index.html Buddhist content: not obvious except in the opening preface to Ulansey's article from The Vision Thing: "Let us suppose that in modern Europe the faithful had deserted the Christian churches to worship Allah or Brahma, to follow the precepts of Confucius or Buddha, or to adopt the maxims of the Shinto; let us imagine a great confusion of all the races of the world in which Arabian mullahs, Chinese scholars, Japanese bonzes, Tibetan lamas and Hindu pundits would be preaching fatalism and predestination... a confusion in which all those priests would erect temples of exotic architecture in our cities and celebrate their disparate rites therein. Such a dream, which the future may perhaps realize, would offer a pretty accurate picture of the religious chaos in which the ancient world was struggling before the reign of Constantine." [1] Franz Cumont, 1906 [My exception: in our times Buddhism is not exactly "preaching fatalism and predestination"] Cheers, Joanna From dharmafarer at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 13:20:08 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 03:20:08 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <674462.32307.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <8CB738D08D2912F-F8C-3C7@FRR2-L27.sis.aol.com> <674462.32307.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I can't help sensing a lot of bitterness in the words, words, words. Is this Hamlet speaking, that the king had wronged him? Then be ouit with it and heal yourself, rather than bandage yourself with the sterile gauze of words. Piya Tan On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Jayarava wrote: > > Robert > > I'm with some of the other commentators in that I don't accept your > definition of karma/vipaka. I don't advocate anything like that, and I'm not > entirely sure who you have in your sights. Like Piya I wonder where you are > drawing this definition from. > > On the other hand I did come up with an example of an educated westerner > (that I think you know) who takes an uncritical view of the traditional > explanation of karma and is moral as a result. This seemed to get lost in > the rush to show that I had misinterpreted what you wrote - your perennial > refrain. Is one counter-example enough to falsify your theory or are more > required? > > I don't think people are as unsophisticated as you make out. And I think > you underestimate the importance and positive effects of faith, even blind > faith. A recent Time magazine article noted some interesting medical > research results: for instance people who have some kind of faith (and most > of the people studied were Christians who believed in God) tend to live > longer and enjoy better health (on average) than those who do not. Faith > communities tend to be happier at least in the ways in which happiness can > be measured. The happiest people in the US are the Amish - one of the most > dogmatic faith communities in the world. > > The discussion seems to be going along a familiar road, it must be very > frustrating for you. Is there anyone else who understands and subscribes to > your theory other than you, and could we hear from them? Because after some > years of trying I still don't see why you are so dogmatic about your theory, > or why defending your theory against all comers should have become such a > big deal. > > Best wishes > Jayarava > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Sun Mar 15 17:28:57 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 19:28:57 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CB73DCF1A1B96B-F8C-EAB@FRR2-L27.sis.aol.com> I wonder why there is such a rush to defend the traditional doctrine of karma, or to quibble with my definition, rather than engage with the central point. Curt's clarification does add precision about "intentional action", but no-one has engaged with the central epistemological point about requital. I understand that many Buddhists do understand karma in mental terms, and not strictly as a doctrine about the phenomenal universe, but it is just as dogmatic if it applies only to the effects of our?mental processes,?in which causal?mental processes produce?proportionate effectual?mental processes. The point remains that the law of karma, in any version I have ever come across in traditional Buddhism (whether in suttas or in the mouths of Buddhists) claims an equivalence of result for all actions, and that?this claim lies completely beyond our experience. Nobody has said this isn't the case, but only?offered?distractions from this basic point. Of course I am offering my opinion, and I am not referring to specific accounts in specific suttas, but generalising about the Buddhist account of karma as I have encountered it. If I give a source from a particular sutta this will probably create a scholarly discussion, but my point is philosophical (and by implication practical). Vicente, I think there is a major difference between the law of karma and atomic theory which stops me accepting your analogy. Atomic theory makes fruitful predictions which we can then apply in experience, but karmic theory makes no such predictions. All it tells us is that we will experience the effects of our actions sometime. Karma is thus metaphysical in a way that atoms are not, because there are no conceivable circumstances where, individually or scientifically, we could make use of what it teaches. Jayarava, I did not respond to your example because to do so would involve inappropriate discussion of the character of an individual on this public forum, but needless to say I do not?accept it as a counter-example?(and by the way, I wish you would stop turning this discussion into an inappropriate trial of my character as well, and stick to the issues). Jayarava wrote < References: <8CB73DCF1A1B96B-F8C-EAB@FRR2-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <1515614.20090316015255@gmail.com> Robert wrote: RE> Vicente, I think there is a major difference between the law of RE> karma and atomic theory which stops me accepting your analogy. RE> Atomic theory makes fruitful predictions which we can then apply RE> in experience, but karmic theory makes no such predictions. that's not real. Kamma is accomplished without any failure. Can you give some example of kamma not accomplished? Of course, if you go beyond what kamma explain then you cannot expect fruitful explanations. In the same way the atomic theory can make fruitful predictions only while we are inside the same atomic theory. When you request a "prediction" you are referring to the accomplishment of your own mental images, an scenery that you call "future". These images inside your mind are developed using a space-time logics in accordance with the same atomic theory (btw, also in your mind), and in that way will be accomplished. Such type of validation is proper to one way of knowledge - the scientific method - but this is not an explanation of the nature of knowledge. For this reason there are many common things which are real and different of this way to know: art and Religion, in example. In short: one is the only author of the logics of his perceived world. If one want to be an scientific guy with an scientific mind and living in a scientific world, for sure one must learn to manage the atomic theory. However, if one want to be a Buddhist guy with a Buddhist mind and living in a Buddhist world, then one must learn to manage kamma. If one is able to manage more than one way to explain the world then this person will be in a highest state than most of people. Anyway, there is not any definitive way to know the phenomena when our perception and knowledge exists in a relation between subject and object. Finally, our mind health and the real knowledge of the life must be measured according the happiness in yourself and the people around you. best regards, From jkirk at spro.net Sun Mar 15 19:14:31 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 19:14:31 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <674462.32307.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <8CB738D08D2912F-F8C-3C7@FRR2-L27.sis.aol.com> <674462.32307.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This list has had several discussions of karma in the past, but try and find anything on the archives! As I recall, it wasn't years ago that Richard H. had some insightful comments about it. But the Archives have no search engine where one could type in "karma" let's say, and the search function would come up with messages on the topic. Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Sun Mar 15 19:38:08 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 19:38:08 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences Message-ID: Robert Your discussions have been such generalisations that someone has asked you which suttas you are referring to or reflecting upon. You only reply that you are stating a generalised view. However, if you want to persuade people that your views have a basis, you need to take up specific suttas and contest/deconstruct them accordingly. On a list like this, how can you go on maintaining a lofty position of your own unassailable position by not citing examples from the tradition? Here is one place that you might start; there are of course many others. Majjhima Nikaya 135 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel248.html #toc The Shorter Exposition of Kamma Joanna From jkirk at spro.net Sun Mar 15 20:00:22 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 20:00:22 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences Message-ID: Here is an example of the requital Robert refers to (seems to me anyway): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html#passage-8 From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Sun Mar 15 20:32:36 2009 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 10:32:36 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <8CB738D08D2912F-F8C-3C7@FRR2-L27.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB738D08D2912F-F8C-3C7@FRR2-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: Robert Eillis wrote: > The law of karma claims not only that intentional actions have > consequences, but that they always have consequences which are an > equivalent moral requital for the intentional action. Err... this is true to some extent, but if the consequences of intentional actions are wildly random, why would it be worth talking about? W.F. Wong From jkirk at spro.net Sun Mar 15 20:34:45 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 20:34:45 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Chinese Distrust in Tibet Message-ID: http://www.feer.com/politics/2009/march53/distrust-in-tibet Distrust in Tibet by Alex Pasternack Posted March 12, 2009 Alex Pasternack, a Beijing-based free-lance writer, interviewed Robert Barnett, adjunct professor of contemporary Tibetan studies and director of the modern Tibetan studies program at Columbia University, in Beijing on March 6. [article follows] Buddhist content here only in the views Barnett states, saying that China needs to "stop bans on religion, stop banning students from religion, stop banning the Dalai Lama, stop banning his photographs, immediately bring in commissions to regulate the migration of non-Tibetans. Stop pushing short-sighted GDP growth. Do human capacity-building. And you build yourself 10 years of good will instantly." This interview is more informative than a lot I've come across recently having to do with the anniversary of China invading Tibet. Joanna From dharmafarer at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 21:34:38 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:34:38 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] A great transition and deja vu ? In-Reply-To: <4D16B2B914354A7F93383DCF12340BE7@OPTIPLEX> References: <4D16B2B914354A7F93383DCF12340BE7@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Thanks. Joannna, for David Ulansey's paper. I enjoyed his Religions course in UC Berkeley in the early 1990s when his book, "The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries" (1991) had just appeared, and he spoke on Mithraism. The joy and beauty of listening of great teachings, whether acadademic or spiritual, at once evokes in my mind the imagery of Amitabha's perpetual Dharma words in the centre of the Sukhavati cosmos. Sukhavati to me is a Buddhist dream of a utopia where the joy of learning, knowing and meditation are all bundle into one, where there is no more pursuit of worldly needs. Certainly there are no foolish Republican presidents or any power figure there. Amitabha is an imagery of compassion and wisdom of what our senses can only imagine what nirvana is like. Sukhavata is here and now when all this is possible. With metta, Piya Tan On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 1:37 AM, jkirk wrote: > http://www.well.com/user/davidu/cultural.html > > CULTURAL TRANSITION AND SPIRITUAL TRANSFORMATION: > FROM ALEXANDER THE GREAT TO CYBERSPACE > David Ulansey > > In, The Vision Thing: Myth, Politics, and Psyche in the World, > edited by Thomas Singer (London and New York: Routledge, 2000) > pp. 213-31. > > I've not read The Vision Thing..., but Ulansey has posted his > contribution to that anthology on his website, and it's quite > interesting. In fact, a lot of other aticles based on his > classicist research can also be found on his website. Lots of > intriguing reading. Main URL: > http://www.well.com/user/davidu/index.html > > Buddhist content: not obvious except in the opening preface to > Ulansey's article from The Vision Thing: > > "Let us suppose that in modern Europe the faithful had deserted > the Christian churches to worship Allah or Brahma, to follow the > precepts of Confucius or Buddha, or to adopt the maxims of the > Shinto; let us imagine a great confusion of all the races of the > world in which Arabian mullahs, Chinese scholars, Japanese > bonzes, Tibetan lamas and Hindu pundits would be preaching > fatalism and predestination... a confusion in which all those > priests would erect temples of exotic architecture in our cities > and celebrate their disparate rites therein. Such a dream, which > the future may perhaps realize, would offer a pretty accurate > picture of the religious chaos in which the ancient world was > struggling before the reign of Constantine." [1] > > Franz Cumont, 1906 > [My exception: in our times Buddhism is not exactly "preaching > fatalism and predestination"] > > Cheers, Joanna > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Mon Mar 16 03:17:00 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 05:17:00 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. karma and consequences Message-ID: <8CB742F18822BC2-F54-3EB@FRR3-L11.sis.aol.com> Vicente Gonzalez wrote, >>that's not real. Kamma is accomplished without any failure. Can you give some example of kamma not accomplished?<< First, thankyou for responding to a philosophical point philosophically, Vicente, which no-one else seems to be doing. I previously gave some examples of karma not being accomplished: a good person getting cancer, a nasty dictator in happy retirement, and also a lie which does not necessarily lead to ascertainable bad results. To assert that in these kinds of examples karma must be being fulfilled even though we do not experience it is dogmatic. It is unfalsifiable. I do not think there is such a gap between justifiable approaches in scientific and spiritual contexts as you seem to assume. Both science and spiritual practice can be pursued in an open, provisional spirit, or narrowly and dogmatically. The way to tell the difference in each case depends on the relationship of theory with experience, with the distinction that in spiritual practice that experience may be individual rather than publically verifiable. I am not trying to reduce spiritual practice to physical science; but on the other hand I think you are creating a false dichotomy between them, which leaves us with no way of distinguishing dogmatic claims in spiritual practice from useful and practical ones. Best wishes, Robert Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net From jayarava at yahoo.com Mon Mar 16 03:28:49 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 02:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <8CB73DCF1A1B96B-F8C-EAB@FRR2-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <336345.65169.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Robert, I'm sorry if I appear to be turning the discussion inappropriately to a trial of your character. Part of me wants to know "why?" on a more personal level, but perhaps that is not appropriate to this forum. (And Piya I'm not bitter, just confused, so perhaps you could ponder your projection; I have met and like Robert). So is this the main point: > The point remains that the law of karma, in any version I have ever > come across in traditional Buddhism (whether in suttas or in > the mouths of Buddhists) claims an equivalence of result for > all actions, and that?this claim lies completely beyond our > experience. Nobody has said this isn't the case, but > only?offered?distractions from this basic point. I think you may need to allow that it's been difficult to tell what your main point is. Traditional Buddhism presumably allows for contemporary non-traditional Buddhists who have different views? I understand the "equivalence" between karma and vipaka to be stated only in the most general terms: in acting to cause suffering one experiences suffering. The more precise definition would be that unskilful intentions give rise to painful vedan?, and repeated intentions set up patterns which become habits. Personally this _is_ my experience of unskilfulness to the extent that I've been aware enough to notice. I grant that traditional, and the more legendary, accounts of karma, are more allegorical - although I don't see how this prevents people from addressing conditions. Perhaps as part of an overall culture which discourages people from practice for whatever reason: those who don't believe bodhi is possible until Maitreya comes back; or that lay people need only feed monks, or whatever. But not specifically a belief in karma. Would focussing on karma be to miss the point again? But this is the era of Buddhism Without Beliefs. I'm still not sure what you mean when you say that faith is used to justify positions, which you presumably see as fixed in some way rather than provisional. Perhaps an example? I'm trying to see this in terms of Buddhists I've had contact with - which covers the spectrum of contemporary and traditional Buddhism. The argument that we must hold beliefs provisionally seems unremarkable to me. Almost axiomatic. That one of the things that we do as Buddhists is investigate and relinquish views is hardly news. Is the problem that many new Buddhists simply replace their western views with "Buddhist" views? Is the concern that practice will not root out even those views? But why would any view be exempt? If we remove the connection between actions and consequences then where does that leave us? Surely there must be some kind of causal link between actions and consequences at the heart of all ethics, else why be good and not evil? So how would you characterise the link, if any? I have to say that I'm not very good at ethics as theory. If I were leading a discussion on ethics I wouldn't have let it get this theoretical, but would have brought it down to the level of personal experience of the consequences of behaviour: beginning with the most gross and looking for the subtleties. Speculation about what happens either theoretically, or in some hypothetical person's mind is seldom fruitful in my experience. It may be why I've tended to make the discussion personal. The "equivalence" is really quite obvious if I look at my own mind, and that is always my approach in teaching the subject. Anyway I hope this response looks like progress to you - have I got the main point above? I am intrigued that something which seems so incomprehensible to me, is so very important to you. And I would still like to hear other angles on it. I recently did have a major change in my thinking about the Dharma while reading Sue Hamilton's book "Early Buddhism : a New Approach" so I would say that I am open to new and interesting ideas. Best wishes Jayarava From jayarava at yahoo.com Mon Mar 16 03:32:15 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 02:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <1515614.20090316015255@gmail.com> Message-ID: <875137.69257.qm@web51410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 16/3/09, Vicente Gonzalez wrote: > that's not real. Kamma is accomplished without any > failure. Can you give some example of kamma not accomplished? Ahhhh. OK Robert, I think Vicente has provided the example of a traditional position which cannot be defended by reasoned argument, and entails unexamined metaphysical beliefs. Your critique seems to make more sense in this light. But I would be equally critical of it... Ciao Jayarava From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Mon Mar 16 03:34:10 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 05:34:10 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. karma and consequences Message-ID: <8CB74317E5054BA-F54-45F@FRR3-L11.sis.aol.com> I just realised I have not responded fully enough to Vicente. he wrote >>Anyway, there is not any definitive way to know the phenomena when our perception and knowledge exists in a relation between subject and object.? Finally, our mind health and the real knowledge of the life must be measured according? the happiness in yourself and the people around you.<< ? I agree entirely that there?are no definitive ways, because the subject-object relation leaves us in a state of uncertainty. However, it is not going to help us in this situation to accept premature solutions which depend only on an appeal to faith. There are no definitive ways, but there are provisional, continuous, and incremental ways of gradually casting off delusion. I think the very notion of justifiable spiritual life depends on the prior acceptance of that uncertainty, but nevertheless with an avoidance of nihilism?through the adoption of?provisional universal values. This is the Middle Way as illustrated symbolically in the Buddha's early life story, in which he came to understand the limitations of the two different extremes.?Both the nihilists in the palace and the eternalist ascetics offered?premature certainties which did not fully address conditions. Happiness does tell us something about whether conditions have been addressed, but not enough. One can achieve temporary states of relative happiness by dealing with the conditions in a restricted zone, whilst those outside remain unaddressed. The Amish seem a good example of that, but then so is the relative happiness of Western civilisation at present, with major environmental conditions not addressed. Best wishes, Robert Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net From jayarava at yahoo.com Mon Mar 16 03:50:18 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 02:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <69811.87074.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 16/3/09, jkirk wrote: > I am citing this bit only as an example of the requital that many > revisionist Buddhists today may view as a phantasmagoria. And, in this > respect, I doubt that such requital effects are what keeps > today's non-Asian Buddhists on the path of sila. As a revisionist I would see this more positively as allegorical, methodological, and pedagogical; not as phantasmagorical. When you look more broadly you see the Buddha taking whatever motivated people at the time (be it rituals, austerities, superstitions, or whatever) and redefining the goal of such things in ethical terms (I wax lyrical about this in my JBE article). A classic example is "ethical purity" which comes directly from "ritual purity" something which obsessed not only Brahmins, but also Jains. By redefining the goal, but retaining their original emotional engagement, he harnesses the enormous momentum of their traditional beliefs to the new, or redefined goals. He often does not seek to change their minds - we started this discussion with the K?l?ma Sutta after all. I think the Buddha was confident that any residual legacy views would fade away under the glare of practice. Karma was quite simply the most prevalent religious idea in Magadha at the time, and rather than oppose it, the Buddha redefined it. This made the Dharma far more ehipassiko than it might have been had he merely rubbished the opposition. Which is not to say that there are no polemics, but the audience for these seems most often to be other "professional" ascetics who were picking fights over theories anyway. The point of the Buddha's program was not to instil new views, but to get people to practice. As I've said: reading the P?li and looking around at my peers it seems clear to me that what you believe (either implicitly or explicitly) is less important than that you practice, since the latter will always shed light on the former. Regards Jayarava From jayarava at yahoo.com Mon Mar 16 04:06:49 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 03:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <8CB742F18822BC2-F54-3EB@FRR3-L11.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <607746.18988.qm@web51405.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 16/3/09, Robert Ellis wrote: > I previously gave some examples of karma not being > accomplished: a good person getting cancer, a nasty dictator > in happy retirement, and also a lie which does not > necessarily lead to ascertainable bad results. To assert > that in these kinds of examples karma must be being > fulfilled even though we do not experience it is dogmatic. > It is unfalsifiable. These are not good examples of karma/viapaka. Firstly you are attempting to see links to specific events which is not the Buddhist theory of karma as I understand it, or if it is could you site sources. The link is between cetan? and vedan?, not between cetan? and cancer. Secondly you demonstrate the problem with hypothetical examples. The "good person" does not exist. We have all been motivated by a mixture of positive and negative intentions. If someone gets cancer you characterise it as a bad thing. It might not be. I know of at least one person for whom it turned out to be a blessing in disguise. The hypothetical just doesn't reflect lived experience. We seldom make up examples that contradict the point we are trying to make. Thirdly the best you can say in these cases is that you cannot see the link between their intentions and the vedan? we assume them to experience. Which is hardly surprising because you have made these people up. They aren't real and no one lives a life so simple. They don't falsify the theory so much as the method. Back to the drawing board as far as this is concerned. Cheers Jayarava From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Mon Mar 16 04:13:46 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 06:13:46 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Scholarship and philosophy Message-ID: <8CB743705FC0174-F54-5A0@FRR3-L11.sis.aol.com> Joanna Kirk wrote: >>Your discussions have been such generalisations that someone has asked you which suttas you are referring to or reflecting upon. You only reply that you are stating a generalised view. However, if you want to persuade people that your views have a basis, you need to take up specific suttas and contest/deconstruct them accordingly.? On a list like this, how can you go on maintaining a lofty position of your own unassailable position by not citing examples from the tradition?<< ? I was not aware that this list was exclusively devoted to scholarly discussion which must always be backed up by references to texts. If that is the case, I apologise for intruding upon you, because I am really not interested in such scholarly discussion. Perhaps the moderator could confirm if he thinks I should not be contributing in a philosophical vein. However, it does appear to me that at least some members of this list (such as Vicente and Jayarava) are interested in some measure of philosophical discussion. My reply was not just that I am stating a generalised view. It was that I am arguing philosophically. Philosophical argument involves a combination of theorisation on the basis of experience, and the rational examination of such theorisations for consistency, justifiability, and acceptability of?implications. Philosophical argument, unlike scholarly argument, allows basic assumptions to be questioned. Thus my position is neither "lofty", nor "unassailable", it is simply philosophical, and thus open to dispute. If you do not agree with it, why not offer counter-arguments, instead of?diverting the discussion into?personal criticism by reading negative emotional states into it?? I don't see what is wrong with summarising the view of karma that one has encountered in experience of what Buddhists generally say.?If your experience of what Buddhists generally say is different, then fair enough, just say so: but nobody as yet has said this. The reason that I am not interested in arguing about suttas is not because?I have not read any - I have read many, and also studied Pali and Sanskrit. However, constant appeals to traditional texts for me usually just beg the question as to why we should accept what the text says. If?one does not start with a basic assumption that?texts should be accepted just because they are traditional, then they only have the status of theory: which means that I am happy to refer to them if they say anything interesting which relates to my experience, but not to accept any duty to do so.? Academics in Buddhist Studies?very often?seem to me to adopt an unduly narrow approach in their requirements?for so-called scholarly rigour (even when this rigour does not include examining one's assumptions), and excluding philosophical approaches. I have met several frustrated postgraduates in UK universities who wanted to do philosophical work, but had been forced by their narrow-minded supervisors to spend several years studying Chinese, or Pali, or similar, even though this had very little relationship to the philosophical work they wanted to do, which could just as easily be done in translation. In Buddhist Ethics, as a postgraduate, I found my philosophical approach was?completely excluded from all discussion. It was only a few open-minded philosophers (on the edge of the dominant analytic vs continental divide) that I was able to work with. In the longer term, such narrowness condemns Buddhist Studies to irrelevance. The insights offered by Buddhism are applicable to everyone, but most people in the West are rightly not interested in scholarly disputations on suttas, which have?very little?relevance to their lives. Philosophical exploration, however, has the potential to develop that universality and relevance, and address basic questions of the grounds of judgement in such matters. I also find the situation bizarre if you compare Buddhist Studies to Christian theology. Christian theologians refer to texts, but a large portion of their discussions?are philosophical or theological, and deeply engaged with examining the core assumptions of Christian belief. Why is such an approach so often rigidly excluded from discussion in Buddhist Studies? Best wishes, Robert Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Mon Mar 16 04:13:46 2009 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:13:46 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <8CB74317E5054BA-F54-45F@FRR3-L11.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB74317E5054BA-F54-45F@FRR3-L11.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: I notice something interesting that always comes up with the discussion of karma and karma-vipaaka. Something like "a good guy gets cancer and dies; it may be due to his past life karma" seems not to be acceptable to a Westerner whereas for someone Asian, it is. The Westerner seems to find this a pervasion of the notion of fair play and justice, as well as a case of "rubbing salt on the wounds". However, for someone Asian, it in fact provides closure and a sense of solace. The window of justice goes beyond the current live. Furthermore, that I am luckily than the dead person does not mean that I am somehow better or superior. As a Chinese saying goes, "it is not that the karma will not come, it is just that the time is not right yet." All of us have a mix of good and bad karma manifesting at different times. It may be that my good karma is manifesting now while the dead man's bad karma manifested in the same time window. It by no means excludes the possibility that fortunes will reverse within the same time window some time in the future. As for abuse of the doctrine: with enough creativity, anything can be abused. As for proof: there is no proof that by driving safely, I will not get into an accident (eg. someone crashing into me). Nonetheless, it is generally true that the likelihood of the consequence of me not getting into an accident is much higher if I don't run red lights, or change lanes recklessly. Then after, I don't have proof for that either. Heck, I just have to take it on faith. W.F. Wong From selwyn at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 16 05:29:33 2009 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:29:33 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: References: <8CB74317E5054BA-F54-45F@FRR3-L11.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <49BE381D.7040707@ntlworld.com> Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > I notice something interesting that always comes up with the discussion of > karma and karma-vipaaka. Something like "a good guy gets cancer and dies; it > may be due to his past life karma" seems not to be acceptable to a Westerner > whereas for someone Asian, it is. > I am not sure that this is really a 'Westerner' versus 'Asian' difference. It seems much more a question of not understanding what is meant and how it is applied. > The Westerner seems to find this a pervasion of the notion of fair play and > justice, as well as a case of "rubbing salt on the wounds". > One meets this response, but not usually among Westerners who actually accept the teachings of kamma and rebirth. There are plenty of them -- except on this list :-) Note that at one time, when someone dies of cancer, it would be referred to as 'God's will' and might still be in some Christian circles. > However, for someone Asian, it in fact provides closure and a sense of > solace. The window of justice goes beyond the current live. Furthermore, > that I am luckily than the dead person does not mean that I am somehow > better or superior. As a Chinese saying goes, "it is not that the karma will > not come, it is just that the time is not right yet." All of us have a mix > of good and bad karma manifesting at different times. It may be that my good > karma is manifesting now while the dead man's bad karma manifested in the > same time window. It by no means excludes the possibility that fortunes will > reverse within the same time window some time in the future. That describes pretty exactly how I would feel about it. Lance Cousins From rjones at cm.ksc.co.th Mon Mar 16 07:27:11 2009 From: rjones at cm.ksc.co.th (Randall Jones) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:27:11 +0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pure Land Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7mh3a0$3f8qf2@smtp4.ksc.net.th> Dear Piya, "Sukhavati is here and now" reminds me somehow of Aj. Buddhadasa. I must admit I know next to nothing about Pure Land Buddhism. Can you recommend some Pure Land reading to a westerner whose outlook was greatly influenced by Aj. Buddhadasa? Thanks. Randall Jones rjones at cm.ksc.co.th >Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:34:38 +0800 >From: Piya Tan >Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] A great transition and deja vu ? >To: Buddhist discussion forum >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >Thanks. Joannna, for David Ulansey's paper. I enjoyed his Religions course >in UC Berkeley in the early 1990s when his book, "The Origins of the >Mithraic Mysteries" (1991) had just appeared, and he spoke on Mithraism. > >The joy and beauty of listening of great teachings, whether acadademic or >spiritual, at once evokes in my mind the imagery of Amitabha's perpetual >Dharma words in the centre of the Sukhavati cosmos. > >Sukhavati to me is a Buddhist dream of a utopia where the joy of learning, >knowing and meditation are all bundle into one, where there is no more >pursuit of worldly needs. Certainly there are no foolish Republican >presidents or any power figure there. > >Amitabha is an imagery of compassion and wisdom of what our senses can only >imagine what nirvana is like. > >Sukhavata is here and now when all this is possible. > >With metta, > >Piya Tan From at8u at virginia.edu Mon Mar 16 07:37:57 2009 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 09:37:57 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49BE5635.1060201@virginia.edu> Vicente wrote: "Kamma is accomplished without any failure. Can you give some example of kamma not accomplished?" Hi Vicente, You know what they say, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Surely the onus probandi is on you, who is making such an extraordinary claim? As Bertrand Russell would put it, where is the evidence? Best, Alberto Todeschini From Jackhat1 at aol.com Mon Mar 16 08:49:34 2009 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 10:49:34 EDT Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. karma and consequences Message-ID: In a message dated 3/16/2009 4:18:14 A.M. Central Daylight Time, robertupeksa at talktalk.net writes: I previously gave some examples of karma not being accomplished: a good person getting cancer, a nasty dictator in happy retirement, and also a lie which does not necessarily lead to ascertainable bad results. To assert that in these kinds of examples karma must be being fulfilled even though we do not experience it is dogmatic. It is unfalsifiable. == As I understand it, Tibetan Buddhists might say that cancer is directly caused by kamma. It is also my understanding that Thera would say that cancer is not directly caused by cancer but our reaction to that cancer is. That is, kamma only operates within the Cycle of Dependent Origination. I use the word "directly" to account for our reaction to phenomena causing stress which can, arguably, cause cancer. This would be an instance of our reaction indirectly causing cancer. Is my understanding correct? Jack **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) From richard.nance at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 08:55:01 2009 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 10:55:01 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Scholarship and philosophy In-Reply-To: <8CB743705FC0174-F54-5A0@FRR3-L11.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB743705FC0174-F54-5A0@FRR3-L11.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 6:13 AM, Robert Ellis wrote: > Philosophical argument, unlike scholarly argument, allows basic > assumptions to be questioned. This is a basic assumption worth questioning. You're welcome to define your terms stipulatively if you wish, of course -- but a scholar such as Gregory Schopen would almost certainly balk at the suggestion that he's doing philosophy (and he's done quite a bit to question basic assumptions in the field of Buddhist Studies). I know of very few scholars in the field, in fact, who do _not_ proceed by checking and rechecking their assumptions and adjusting those assumptions in light of new findings. This is how scholarship works -- or how it's supposed to work. . > I also find the situation bizarre if you compare Buddhist Studies to > Christian theology. Christian theologians refer to texts, but a large > portion of their discussions?are philosophical or theological, and deeply > engaged with examining the core assumptions of Christian belief. Why is such > an approach so often rigidly excluded from discussion in Buddhist Studies? The first step in rectifying the situation, it seems to me, is to avoid buying into the idea that the pursuit of scholarly rigor and the pursuit of philosophical rigor are incompatible pursuits. You haven't quite said this -- but some of your remarks above (e.g., the attempt to oppose scholarly argument to philosophical argument) lead me to think that you may assume something like this. Don't. It's a myth. One can, after all, approach Buddhism endeavoring to be responsible to both philological* and philosophical insights. Some very fine recent work in Buddhist Studies arguably attempts to do just this sort of thing. Best wishes, R. Nance Indiana * I'm assuming that your worry over the scholarly can be unpacked as a worry over an approach that privileges philological acumen. My apologies if I'm misreading your point. From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Mon Mar 16 08:55:15 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 10:55:15 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] re. karma and consequences Message-ID: <8CB745E49C589F5-F54-CEF@FRR3-L11.sis.aol.com> Hi Jayarava, Thanks for picking me up on my imprecise language. I think we are making more progress now. You wrote: <>Secondly you demonstrate the problem with hypothetical examples. The "good person" does not exist. We have all been motivated by a mixture of positive and negative intentions. If someone gets cancer you characterise it as a bad thing. It might not be. I know of at le! ast one person for whom it turned out to be a blessing in disguise. The hypothetical just doesn't reflect lived experience. We?seldom make up examples that contradict the point we are trying to make.<< My examples were rough ones in terms of experience, but you are interpreting them absolutely. The "good person" does exist relatively, in our experience, and such good people as we experience them also sometimes get cancer and suffer enormously as a result, both physically and mentally. The fact that some people may use cancer as an opportunity for spiritual development does not prevent cancer usually being a source of mental anguish as well as spiritual, often not deserved. It only takes one such case to provide a counter-exam! ple to the law of karma. I see hypothetical examp les as a legitimate part of a philosophical discussion, provided that they are all taken provisionally and improved upon. They are often better than specific examples, because we view them more objectively. If the examples we choose reflect a limited perspective, then this can be pointed out by others (as you are doing) and the examples can be refined. >>Thirdly the best you can say in these cases is that you cannot see the link between their intentions and the vedan? we assume them to experience. Which is hardly surprising because you have made these people up. They aren't real and no one lives a life so simple. They don't falsify the theory so much as the method.<< I think we can see the link between intentions a! nd vedana in our experience: it is just that we have no certainty about it. Uncertainty is no excuse for abandoning the discussion or seeking dogmatic short-cuts. Certainly no-one's life is simple, but we can legitimately abstract features of those lives on the basis of experience, and try to refine the examples so as to get closer to the truth. The method is not certain, but it's a lot better than mere dicussion of specifics (because it is more universal), or appeal to dogma (because it does nevertheless relate to experience), or discussion of texts (see my other post responding to Joanna), which again lacks universality, and does not examine the assumptions with which we view the texts. Thanks for your other post, which I w! ould like to respond to as well. But I must get on with some work for now! Best wishes, Robert Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net From jkirk at spro.net Mon Mar 16 09:47:35 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 09:47:35 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <69811.87074.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <69811.87074.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0A8A90D07B834B9284412BDA1B5CC715@OPTIPLEX> "As a revisionist I would see this more positively as allegorical, methodological, and pedagogical; not as phantasmagorical. When you look more broadly you see the Buddha taking whatever motivated people at the time (be it rituals, austerities, superstitions, or whatever) and redefining the goal of such things in ethical terms (I wax lyrical about this in my JBE article)." Asn an anthropologist, I have already made this same point time and again on this list, that the phantasmagorical features appearing here and there were rhetorically motivated, based on local beliefs, including presenting as requital such destinations as heavens and hells in order to move people in the same way that such visions historically were used to move people in, say, the Catholic Church. However, you probably weren't on the list at such times so you did not know that I wasn't born (on the list) yesterday, as this reply seems to assume. This particular thread has devolved into some kind of an Byzantine argument between you and Robert, so at this point I'm outta here. Cheers, Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Jayarava Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 3:50 AM --- On Mon, 16/3/09, jkirk wrote: > I am citing this bit only as an example of the requital that many > revisionist Buddhists today may view as a phantasmagoria. And, in this > respect, I doubt that such requital effects are what keeps today's > non-Asian Buddhists on the path of sila. As a revisionist I would see this more positively as allegorical, methodological, and pedagogical; not as phantasmagorical. When you look more broadly you see the Buddha taking whatever motivated people at the time (be it rituals, austerities, superstitions, or whatever) and redefining the goal of such things in ethical terms (I wax lyrical about this in my JBE article). A classic example is "ethical purity" which comes directly from "ritual purity" something which obsessed not only Brahmins, but also Jains. By redefining the goal, but retaining their original emotional engagement, he harnesses the enormous momentum of their traditional beliefs to the new, or redefined goals. He often does not seek to change their minds - we started this discussion with the K?l?ma Sutta after all. I think the Buddha was confident that any residual legacy views would fade away under the glare of practice. Karma was quite simply the most prevalent religious idea in Magadha at the time, and rather than oppose it, the Buddha redefined it. This made the Dharma far more ehipassiko than it might have been had he merely rubbished the opposition. Which is not to say that there are no polemics, but the audience for these seems most often to be other "professional" ascetics who were picking fights over theories anyway. The point of the Buddha's program was not to instil new views, but to get people to practice. As I've said: reading the P?li and looking around at my peers it seems clear to me that what you believe (either implicitly or explicitly) is less important than that you practice, since the latter will always shed light on the former. Regards Jayarava _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From franz at mind2mind.net Mon Mar 16 11:29:24 2009 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 10:29:24 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Scholarship and philosophy In-Reply-To: <8CB743705FC0174-F54-5A0@FRR3-L11.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB743705FC0174-F54-5A0@FRR3-L11.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Robert, I've appreciated the energy with which you are engaging the list. Do please keep going, but also do please give us the benefit of the doubt in evaluating our seriousness. I think you're encountering one kind of list culture or list rhetoric that has evolved over years of interaction. It's good to try to learn our ways a bit and engage us using those ways. I say "good," but I realize I mean that only in the sense of efficacious. Sounds like my old ethnographic training has stayed with me. We are a little microculture, aren't we, Joanna? I'm sure anthropologists have done plenty of writing on the subject of internet communities and discussion lists. Randall Jones and Richard Nance have throughtfully replied to your opposition of the practices of scholarship and philosophy. I want to add one more thought. You suggested we > compare Buddhist Studies to Christian theology. This is, in my view, a category error, but one I often fall into, myself, as it grows from the particular historical circumstances of "Buddhist Studies" in the West. It is natural and appropriate that the academic pursuit of "Buddhist Studies" will differ from the apologetic pursuit of Christian Theology. Their goals and methods are incommensurable, at least in their purest forms. It seems to me you are wanting Buddhist scholars to act as Buddhist practitioners; this is the position of Christian Theologians. But if Buddhist Studies folks will not take this role, who *will*? Who will be the Buddhist "scholar-practitioners" (a term coined by the scholar-practitioner Charles Prebish)? Very provocative question. You are right to say such a hybrid mode of scholarly practice is not normally encouraged in Western Buddhist academia. Yet things are thawing out, boundaries are softening. We shall see how studies evolve as old institutions pass away and new ones arise. In the meantime, you might enjoy reading last year's volume of the Journal of Global Buddhism, which wrestles with just these questions. Cheers, Franz From franz at mind2mind.net Mon Mar 16 11:46:24 2009 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 10:46:24 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pure Land Buddhism In-Reply-To: <7mh3a0$3f8qf2@smtp4.ksc.net.th> References: <7mh3a0$3f8qf2@smtp4.ksc.net.th> Message-ID: <235E3C9A-468F-4476-A578-DCA10C411475@mind2mind.net> Dear Randall, First, apologies for listing you as having responded to Robert Ellis. Of course it was this post I was thinking of, where you ask about Pure Land reading. I am with you in seeing a remarkable resonance between Buddhadhasa's ideas the those of contemporary Jodo Shinshu, especially of the Higashi Honganji branch. Here is one source I know is easily accessible to you: http://www.livingdharma.org/Library.html This page is part of the West Covina Buddhist Church (a Jodo Shinshu temple in Southern California) website. Scroll down to the section "Modern Shinshu: The Teachings of Kiyozawa, Akegarasu and Maida" and you'll find some good entry level articles on contemporary Higashi Honganji Pure Land thought. The next section, "The Tannisho: A Shin Buddhist Classic" is also great. It contains the text (including the excellent introduction by Professor Taitetsu Unno) of Shonin Shinran's Tannisho. As that text is foundational to Japanese Pure Land--and is a short and great read--I'd suggest you looking into it as well. Cheers, Franz On Mar 16, 2009, at 6:27 AM, Randall Jones wrote: > Dear Piya, > > "Sukhavati is here and now" reminds me somehow of Aj. Buddhadasa. I > must admit I know next to nothing about Pure Land Buddhism. Can you > recommend some Pure Land reading to a westerner whose outlook was > greatly influenced by Aj. Buddhadasa? Thanks. > > Randall Jones > rjones at cm.ksc.co.th From jkirk at spro.net Mon Mar 16 14:01:18 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:01:18 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pure Land Buddhism In-Reply-To: <7mh3a0$3f8qf2@smtp4.ksc.net.th> References: <7mh3a0$3f8qf2@smtp4.ksc.net.th> Message-ID: <34EA03C76D5F47AF994AA26E8D2FD4FB@OPTIPLEX> Ajahn Cha also has referred to creating the pure land here and now through right view, etc. The source I think I saw this in was _Everything Arises, Everything Falls Away : Teachings on Impermanance and the End of Suffering_. Shambhala, 2005. No index so I can't cite pages. Joanna ================================ Dear Piya, "Sukhavati is here and now" reminds me somehow of Aj. Buddhadasa. I must admit I know next to nothing about Pure Land Buddhism. Can you recommend some Pure Land reading to a westerner whose outlook was greatly influenced by Aj. Buddhadasa? Thanks. Randall Jones rjones at cm.ksc.co.th From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 18:56:06 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 01:56:06 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <8CB742F18822BC2-F54-3EB@FRR3-L11.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB742F18822BC2-F54-3EB@FRR3-L11.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <621133877.20090317015606@gmail.com> Robert wrote: RE> I previously gave some examples of karma not being accomplished: RE> a good person getting cancer, a nasty dictator in happy RE> retirement, and also a lie which does not necessarily lead to RE> ascertainable bad results. To assert that in these kinds of RE> examples karma must be being fulfilled even though we do not RE> experience it is dogmatic. It is unfalsifiable. On the contrary. In those examples the kamma is accomplished in the same moment that you explain this is the result. It seems what you miss in kamma is justice, not causality. But the role of kamma is nor that. Using another analogy, in a billiards game, surely we will bet for the best player instead the worse one. However, when only remains three balls in the table, we see how the black ball goes to a hole in a surprising way. We will feel the injustice because that man is a very good player. However, the movement of the balls was absolutely logical and we know it. And the wise people we will bet always for the best player instead the worse one. Because we know the causality is accomplished in a scientific way despite we cannot obtain a prediction. To examine kamma one need to limit the reach of his understanding. In the same way that we cannot know all relations involved when we shot to four balls to predict the result. I think for this reason, the Buddha advices are not a bidirectional recipe of effort -> reward but to become a good player ("skillful"): "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It's possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.'" AN 2.19 Buddha teach how to shot the balls, to identify a wrong strategy, wrong views and wrong movements. Roots are greed, aversion and delusion, the three roots of unskillful things. When we check the Buddha teaching on kamma, all the teaching is to become a good player: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html The rational character of kamma teaching is implicit, and this can be checked all the time while one don't exceed the reach of his understanding. Because quickly many third factor are involved, and the failure is when we are extending our imagination believing it is our understanding. Our mental images only are able to predict a "logical result" in the short distance (i.e: 1 + 1 = 2). Beyond these poor distances, these images are only imaginations with uncertain degrees of probability. But one can check how sustaining a happy thought for a while it causes happiness. Or if you give me 1.000 dollars I will be happy. etc.. You can check any of them. best regards, From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 19:51:06 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 02:51:06 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <49BE5635.1060201@virginia.edu> References: <49BE5635.1060201@virginia.edu> Message-ID: <195319832.20090317025106@gmail.com> Alberto wrote: AT> Surely the onus probandi is on you, who is making such an extraordinary AT> claim? it is not a personal problem of giving authority? At least to me, for sure who deny the causality in the phenomena of this world; including the appearance of consciousness and rebirth. AT> As Bertrand Russell would put it, where is the evidence? yes,yes..I ask the same, and my position was older and spread in all the human kind. So we must ask to this new and bizarre guest: Where is the evidence for non-causality in the arising of beings and consciousness? From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Tue Mar 17 02:42:45 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 04:42:45 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <8CB74753E60B3C0-F8C-1EE2@FRR2-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CB74F379C72F7C-156C-770C@FRR4-L27.sis.aol.com> Hi Jayarava, I'm now going to respond to your earlier post on karma. Thanks to other people who have since responded too. >>I understand the "equivalence" between karma and vipaka to be ...that unskilful intentions give rise to painful vedan?, and repeated intentions set up patterns which become habits. Personally this is my experience of unskilfulness to the extent that I've been aware enough to notice. << I'd like to suggest that what you have experienced is specific unskilful intentions giving rise to specific vedana, not the law of karma which claims this universally. I have no problem with people claiming that this is true in their experience so far, but the law of karma (again, in whatever precise form you=2! 0put it) goes much further than this. >>I'm still not sure what you mean when you say that faith is used to justify positions, which you presumably see as fixed in some way rather than provisional. Perhaps an example?<< ? OK, American evangelicals are funding Israel due to a dogmatic faith position that israel must expand to its Biblical extent to trigger the second coming, and part of the result is the slaughter we saw recently in Gaza, which would not have been possible without huge American financial and political support. This is an example of faith in general justifying a dogmatic position with horrific consequences. Here's another one using karma specifically. In Richard Hayes' 'Land of No Buddha' p.76, a Tibetan L! ama is quoted as saying that even Jewish children wh o died in the Holocaust must have been reaping their karma vipaka from a previous life. You may consider these gross examples, but they make the point clearly. More subtle examples, using the more "liberalised" view of karma held by Sangharakshita which prevents one reading back current experiences as necessarily caused by?earlier actions, would give rise to a subtler problematic, E.g. a child who believes they will necessarily suffer for their bad actions may be wracked by?irrational guilt. This version of karma still goes beyond experience, so it seems clear to me that it can still be used dogmatically, even though I can't give such striking examples. >>The argument that we must hold beliefs provisionally seems unremarkable ! to me...hardly news.<< My experience is that Western Buddhists?(in the FWBO anyway) often pay lip-service to provisionality, but rarely apply it consistently. If you have agreed that many Buddhists hold a dogmatic view of karma, does this not by itself create a troubling doublethink within the Buddhist community? ? >> Is the concern that practice will not root out even those views? But why would any view be exempt?<< Of course, no view is exempt: except the Middle Way, which at least allows gradual and provisional ways forward. What concerns me particularly about Buddhist views is that they hold the gem of the Middle Way, but?often ignore it and promote metaphysics instead. I'm glad that Buddhists are practising (as are! other people), but their practice is vitiated by mi xed messages and lack of clarity about what they have to offer. My posting is just too long here, and I can't get it through as it is despite editing. So I've chopped off the last bit and will put it in a separate post. Best wishes, Robert Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Tue Mar 17 02:44:29 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 04:44:29 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. karma and consequences (cont) Message-ID: <8CB74F3B7804C0B-156C-7716@FRR4-L27.sis.aol.com> This is the remainder of my previous post responding to Jayarava. Jayarava wrote >>If we remove the connection between actions and consequences then where does that leave us? Surely there must be some kind of causal link between actions and consequences at the heart of all ethics, else why be good and not evil? So how would you characterise the link, if any?<< ? Of course we need to accept causal links. From the beginning I have been arguing for a distinction between karma and consequences. The causal links are just specific links, provisionally known through experience, not deduced from karmic law. >> If I were leading a discussion on ethics I wouldn't have let it get this theoretical, but would have brought it down to the level of personal experience of the consequences of behaviour: beginning with the most gross and looking for the subtleties.<< ? That sounds like a good procedure if you want to guide people towards moral awareness. However, the danger in it (if you are teaching this in relation to 'karma') is that people then associate this specific analysis of?experience with karmic law, when karmic law has not helped them with the analysis at all. Karma is, in fact, completely irrelevant to ethics, as your example shows. Best wishes, Robert Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Tue Mar 17 03:03:34 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 05:03:34 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. scholarship and philosophy Message-ID: <8CB74F6622BE19B-156C-7783@FRR4-L27.sis.aol.com> Dear Franz, Thanks for the positive encouragement. I take this to?imply that philosophers are not in fact banned from Buddha-l. You wrote: >>It is natural and appropriate that the academic pursuit of "Buddhist Studies" will differ from the apologetic pursuit of Christian Theology. Their goals and methods are incommensurable, at least in their purest forms.<< I think this view depends on a strong fact-value distinction, which is philosophically extremely suspect, and which the Buddhist Middle Way itself gives us resources to question. No set of facts about Buddhism are free of values, and Buddhist scholars who think they are being scientifically neutral in their treatment of Buddhism are actually preaching descriptive relativism. If objectivity is a property of persons rather than of propositions (as again the Middle Way, and many associated Buddhist insights, would suggest), then greater objectivity can be gained through committed investigation of the philosophical issues raised by Buddhism than by merely describing it from a supposedly neutral standpoint. Thanks for the link to Global Buddhism, which I will take a closer look at. However, the issues I'm raising are not particularly about advocating Buddhism as opposed to describing and analysing it. I am not myself a Buddhist (though I have been), and I am not advocating Buddhism as such.?I am arguing?that philosophical and normative modes of argument should take their place alongside scholarly ones. As I wrote in my last post about this, scholars of Buddhist Studies in influential positions are preventing good philosophical work being done because of their narrow-minded assumptions about what constitutes Buddhist Studies. It is not a question of advocacy, but of method. Best wishes, Robert Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net From at8u at virginia.edu Tue Mar 17 14:34:25 2009 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:34:25 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49C00951.8070209@virginia.edu> Vicente wrote: > > At least to me, for sure who deny the causality in the phenomena of > this world; including the appearance of consciousness and rebirth. > Hi Vicente, I'm not sure that I follow you here. I wasn't denying causality. Of course, as you well know, there still isn't an agreed upon explanation of causality in philosophy. And I'm not denying karma either. What I was pointing at is that I see no evidence in its favor. So, while personally I don't believe in karma, I'm curious to see what people that do accept it count as evidence. Perhaps I'm naive to think that people would want to see evidence before committing to a doctrine like that of karma. I realize that insisting to see evidence to some people may sound like an obsession with rationality or a scientific way to do things. Best, Alberto Todeschini From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 15:52:26 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:52:26 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <49C00951.8070209@virginia.edu> References: <49C00951.8070209@virginia.edu> Message-ID: <1623152789.20090317225226@gmail.com> Alberto wrote: >> >> At least to me, for sure who deny the causality in the phenomena of >> this world; including the appearance of consciousness and rebirth. >> AT> I'm not sure that I follow you here. I wasn't denying causality. Of AT> course, as you well know, there still isn't an agreed upon explanation AT> of causality in philosophy. yes, of course. I know you are not denying causality My point was pointing the question in itself. I mean knowing why the question is about that "strange thing" of kamma. And the same with rebirth. Objectively, the real strange fact is seeing learned people (specially westerners) with an scientific approach and accepting causality, and at same time they prefer cohabiting comfortably with non-rebirth, demanding evidences of a contrary thing. In this way, using causality in application to live and death becomes strange and the common view is an irrational view to explain the arising of the things by chance, some god or a nothingness. Why?. I think not because our tradition. Because from classic Greeks passing by Hume, Kant, Schopenhauer and Godel among many others, all them pointed causality (and rebirth) as the more logical explanation. Then I point this irrational attachment in our western culture to keep this irrational supposition. When we cannot have certainty then we prefer the more impossible an irrational claim. AT> And I'm not denying karma either. What I was pointing at is that I see AT> no evidence in its favor. So, while personally I don't believe in karma, AT> I'm curious to see what people that do accept it count as evidence. AT> Perhaps I'm naive to think that people would want to see evidence before AT> committing to a doctrine like that of karma. I realize that insisting to AT> see evidence to some people may sound like an obsession with rationality AT> or a scientific way to do things. Of course, we cannot have evidence of both possibilities therefore we cannot show a evidence. But here, in absence of evidence, Do you think the non-causality would be a more logical approach?. Think if the causal approach can be the more logical and simplest. Why here we don't apply Occam? When somebody shoot an arrow we cannot see the way of the arrow, But she is not in the air forever. It would be and irrational approach. We check how our thoughts and actions are objects of knowledge, and provoking reactions and interacting with the environment like the rest of things of this universe, Why are think causality and rebirth is the "strange thing" when this is the more logical approach? So my point was in this sense: the believers in non-kamma and non-rebirth, they are who should demonstrate their bizarre belief which contradict the rest of the Universe. Of course your position is quite equilibrated, because we must accept that there is not possibility to get scientific evidences. However, maybe you can agree that at least in the effort we can polish our way to know the world. Even more today, when everybody is preaching recycling whatever. We can learn that also our body and mind will be recycled. Perhaps this can be another component in the Ecologist failure, commented some days ago. best, From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Wed Mar 18 04:34:21 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 06:34:21 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. karma and consequences Message-ID: <8CB75CC3BBD4663-464-1293@FRR5-L28.sis.aol.com> Dear Vicente, I am not very clear about what your argument is here. You seem to be constantly equivocating between absolute karma and relative consequences, which is the very distinction I started off by making, and which I think it is important to make to avoid the kind of intellectual dishonesty I think I have often observed Buddhists getting stuck in. You do not seem to be offering any argument? to show that consequences in our experience are actually absolute karma, but only analogies based on the assumption that they are actually the same. You wrote >>On the contrary. In those examples the kamma is accomplished in the same moment that you explain this is the result. It seems what you miss in kamma is justice, not causality.<< I thought that karma involves both justice and causality? If karma was true, it would thus be reasonable to expect both. I expect causality of some type (and I agree with Kant that causality is probably a conceptual scheme that we use to understand the world), but karma asserts the universal existence of a particular type of causality. It does not help to constantly insist that karma is nothing more than ordinary causality: if it were, why do Buddhists bother to talk about karma (rather than just causality) at all? I do not understand how your analogy of billiards and remarks about skilfulness do anything to support absolute karma. Skilfulness (kusala), as I understand it, involves addressing conditions adequately. The notion of skilfulness is thus morally helpful, but it has nothing to do with absolute karma, only with addressing the conditions we find in our experience. >>The rational character of kamma teaching is implicit, and this can be checked all the time while one don't exceed the reach of his understanding. Because quickly many third factor are involved, and the failure is when we are extending our imagination believing it is our understanding. Our mental images only are able to predict a "logical result" in the short distance (i.e: 1 + 1 = 2). Beyond these poor distances, these images are only imaginations with uncertain degrees of probability.<< I agree with all that you say here about the limitations of our understanding and reason. But surely the implication of this is that we should not make absolute claims that go far beyond our experience? I wonder if your understanding of causal relationships is actually Platonic? If I am not misunderstanding you, you seem to be implying that our limited experience, despite its limitations, nevertheless?provides rational access to essential truths about the universe. This view seems to me to take insufficient account of our degree of ignorance about the universe. The law of karma is something expounded by human beings, and we do not have direct and unequivocal access to God to check it out for us. Best wishes, Robert Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Wed Mar 18 08:06:11 2009 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:06:11 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religion and aggressive treatment In-Reply-To: <8CB75CC3BBD4663-464-1293@FRR5-L28.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB75CC3BBD4663-464-1293@FRR5-L28.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <49C0FFD3.1000002@comp.nus.edu.sg> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/18/health/research/18faith.html?partner=rss&emc=rss What is the Buddhist position on this, you think? W.F. Wong From jkirk at spro.net Wed Mar 18 10:53:38 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 10:53:38 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religion and aggressive treatment In-Reply-To: <49C0FFD3.1000002@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: <8CB75CC3BBD4663-464-1293@FRR5-L28.sis.aol.com> <49C0FFD3.1000002@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <427DF8F61E734D97A00E0E557123D23F@OPTIPLEX> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/18/health/research/18faith.html?pa rtner=rss&emc=rss What is the Buddhist position on this, you think? W.F. Wong ===================== Hi Weng Fai, As in the article, " study by Dr. Silvestri in 2003 found that while cancer patients listed their oncologist's recommendation as the most influential factor affecting their decisions about medical care, their faith in God was the second-most-influential factor, ranking higher than the recommendations of their family doctors, their spouses and children, and even information about whether treatment would cure the disease." Perhaps they keep expecting/hoping that God will save them? I doubt if the reason brought earlier in the article about the faithfuls' so-called "respect for life" has anything to do with it. I also doubt if there is "a" Buddhist "position" on prolonging life near the end at enormous expense to society and travail for the people involved in their care, both professionals and kin. However, one does recall that although Ven. Buddhadasa had stated that he wanted no life-prolonging medical equipment, and some of the doctors attending had also stressed this point, nevertheless after a stroke that put him in a coma he was attached (in hospital) to a respirator on 27 May 1993, was administered various aggressive medical procedures, and was still on the respirator on 8 July. Then, when the doctors finally said his death was imminent, his devotees decided to return him (from a Bangkok hospital) to his retreat Suan Mokh, where he was put in his bed. He died shortly after. (See, Jackson, Peter A. _Buddhadasa : Theravada Buddhism and Modernist Reform in Thailand_. ChaingMai, Silkworm Books, 2004; Epilogue, p.275.) Ajahn Cha toward (but not near) the end of his life, had a stroke that ruined his brain; he survived being cared for at his wat for at least seven years (I couldn't find his death date), during which Paul Breiter says that doctors said his organs were all functioning except his brain. At least he wasn't being subjected to aggressive medical procedures. (See, Breiter, Paul. _Venerable Father : A Life with Ajahn Cha_.NY: Paraview, 2004.) Joanna From at8u at virginia.edu Wed Mar 18 13:26:20 2009 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:26:20 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences Message-ID: <66634efd0903181226m676cf960k139a54ef26347df5@mail.gmail.com> Hi Vicente, > Objectively, the real strange fact is seeing learned people > (specially westerners) with an scientific approach and accepting > causality, and at same time they prefer cohabiting comfortably with > non-rebirth, demanding evidences of a contrary thing. I still don't quite understand why there should be a problem with accepting some form of causality and not accepting karma *until* sufficient evidence for it is presented, unless you are conflating causality and karma. I'm not. As for the strangeness you mention, is it so outlandish to withhold judgement until one has good reasons to believe something? > In this way, using causality in application to live and death becomes > strange and the common view is an irrational view to explain the > arising of the things by chance, some god or a nothingness. Why?. With "the arising of things" are you referring to the origin of life or the origin of the universe? Neither of these are explained by karma. In fact, I imagine these are the kinds of concerns the Buddha would advise to stay clear of. > I think not because our tradition. Because from classic Greeks passing > by Hume, Kant, Schopenhauer and Godel among many others, all them > pointed causality (and rebirth) as the more logical explanation. I still don't understand what you mean by 'rebirth'. Here and elsewhere you make it sound like causality and rebirth are the same thing. I disagree. Obviously, if you understand them to be the same thing it will look to you that I am contradicting myself or, as you put it, that I'm irrational. > Do you think the non-causality would be a more logical approach?. I've never claimed that I uphold non-causality. Are you still conflating causality and rebirth? > Think if the causal approach can be the more logical and simplest. Yes, that's why I believe that at some level causality works. And that's why there are a lot of things that we can do reliably, from kindling a fire to heating up water for tea. > Of course your position is quite equilibrated, Wait, wasn't it irrational? > because we must accept that there is not > possibility to get scientific evidences. However, maybe you can agree > that at least in the effort we can polish our way to know the world. Yes, I agree, that's why I'm having this conversation. > Even more today, when everybody is preaching recycling whatever. We > can learn that also our body and mind will be recycled. I'm not sure that you can make your point about the mind. But if you are saying that the molecules that make up our bodies and the atoms that make up those molecules will end up elsewhere, including as part of plants, animals and other humans, then I agree. But surely you are not claiming that this is all what the doctrine of rebirth amounts to? This works perfectly well without bringing karma into the discussion. Indeed, karma here would only complicate matters. In general, I think we are pretty much talking past each other. I hope other list members are finding us entertaining. Best, Alberto Todeschini From waynewc at telus.net Wed Mar 18 14:56:28 2009 From: waynewc at telus.net (W. Codling) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:56:28 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religion and aggressive treatment In-Reply-To: <427DF8F61E734D97A00E0E557123D23F@OPTIPLEX> References: <8CB75CC3BBD4663-464-1293@FRR5-L28.sis.aol.com> <49C0FFD3.1000002@comp.nus.edu.sg> <427DF8F61E734D97A00E0E557123D23F@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <49C15FFC.1010501@telus.net> It's probably significant that for Christians, post-mortem existence is permanent. The stakes are high; eternal heaven or hell. Christians put great emphasis on being right about everything spiritual and moral. Certainty is what is encouraged, sought and valorized. But often, as people approach death and know that they are certainly going to die, they experience doubt. Many Christians have little experience with doubt and are extremely uncomfortable when it arises. Certainty that you are about to experience the ultimate liminality may generate enough fear that clinging to life and requesting life extending medical interventions allows one to avoid the terror that doubt can bring to those who have assiduously avoided it while young and vital. Wayne > > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/18/health/research/18faith.html?pa > rtner=rss&emc=rss > > What is the Buddhist position on this, you think? > > W.F. Wong From waynewc at telus.net Wed Mar 18 15:28:05 2009 From: waynewc at telus.net (W. Codling) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 14:28:05 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <621133877.20090317015606@gmail.com> References: <8CB742F18822BC2-F54-3EB@FRR3-L11.sis.aol.com> <621133877.20090317015606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C16765.8000004@telus.net> Karma means action, what you do. There are 3 sorts of karmically significant behaviours, those of thought, speech and body. These are not equal in karmic potency; thought has least karmic consequences and body the most. The three are linked, though, since thoughts usually find some physical manifestation. The teaching of karma recognizes that the habitual links between mind and body form patterns of behaviour in which certain consequences recur as long as the habits of mind and body persist. These are called karmic consequences. Meditation is the way to uncouple the linkages between mind and body. Buddhist teaching suggests that the presence of greed, ill-will and mistaken notions of permanence are mental phenomena which interfere in the patterns of mind and body in ways which produce harm; thus they are poisons and form the tethering points for a great deal of Buddhist practice. Karma is not destiny. Causality is not the same as invariable concomitance. The Buddha's conflation of karma with intention does not imply that only conscious intention is karmically significant; it means that all activity is tethered to intention and thus karmic. The story of Ananda accidentally stepping on ants while walking is illustrative. Some commentators have thought that Ananda is karmically blameless with regard to the deaths of the ants because he had no intent to harm them, but that is not correct. Even if his intention was not aimed at ants, his intention is involved in the ignorance of their presence. So there will be karmic fallout from inadvertently doing harm. The Bodhisattva vow to cease harm to all beings does not let Ananda off the hook just because he was unaware of their presence. Suzuki-roshi once reminded us that "...even a gentle step raises dust". Wayne From rbzeuschner at roadrunner.com Wed Mar 18 16:25:19 2009 From: rbzeuschner at roadrunner.com (Bob Zeuschner) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:25:19 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <49C16765.8000004@telus.net> References: <8CB742F18822BC2-F54-3EB@FRR3-L11.sis.aol.com> <621133877.20090317015606@gmail.com> <49C16765.8000004@telus.net> Message-ID: <49C174CF.4000101@roadrunner.com> I have been sharing this discussion with interest. Let me share one philosopher's perspective on what I learned about karma and causality from several scholars on early Buddhism. In Sanskrit, karma means "action." But there is a special meaning to karma that I am not seeing addressed very clearly. What I learned is that the term for "causality" is pratityasamutpada, and (as I recall) there are five different subgroups or types of causality. Karma is just one type of causality. In early Buddhism, "karma" is not a synonym for "causality" (acc. to David Kalupahana's CAUSALITY: Central Phil. of Buddhism). What distinguishes karma from the other four forms of causality is that the consequences not only extend outwardly, but the karmic action generates consequences which rebound back upon the moral agent. When one's words, speech, or intention are moral (in accord with dharma), the consequences are positive AND RESEMBLE or are APPROPRIATE to the original action. When one acts immorally (contrary to dharma), the consequences are negative AND RESEMBLE (somehow) or are APPROPRIATE to the original act. The common belief that karmically generated action rebounds upon the agent, and somehow resembles the initial act (good deeds produce good karma, bad deeds produce painful karmic consequences) is indeed metaphysical and I have never seen any reason to think that it is a correct description of the universe I inhabit. It most certainly is not the simplest hypothesis. If we interpret karma as merely asserting that we develop patterns of behavior or habits, we overlook the claim that negative consequences will follow from those patterns. They may, but they may not. What is the evidence to support the claim? I am rather fond of pratityasamutpada, and I wish karma did describe my universe. As a description of ultimate reality, by definition karma is metaphysical. I have tended to interpret the Buddha as preferring not to speculate on the ultimate nature of reality (metaphysics). Indeed, karma may serve as a social sanction inclining people to act morally, but its effectiveness as a sanction is zero evidence that it is an accurate description of certain kinds of causality. In addition to karma, God(s) can act as the same sort of social sanction, and so can the judgment of Mithra or heaven or hell. I see no evidence to accept these metaphysical claims either. The claim that the concept of karma describes our universe is weakened by the fact that no possible observation is relevant to it; no possible or conceivable observation could ever be taken as disproving karma. If karma is compatible with every possible state of affairs, then it is not describing anything in my world. If no possible state of affairs could ever weaken or disprove karma, it is unfalsifiable. Karma may shape behavior, may be an image which can give meaning to one's life (as poetry can do), and one might accept karma for these reasons. But I want to know if the description is as accurate as the claim that the earth goes around the sun, or as accurate as the claim that all living things share a common ancestor. Bob Zeuschner Dept. of Philosophy From shian at kmspks.org Tue Mar 17 23:07:04 2009 From: shian at kmspks.org ([DPD CDT] Shen Shi'an) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:07:04 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pure Land Buddhism In-Reply-To: <417b38867fff9d280c0b48b3796bf0e457b65bcf@localhost> References: <7mh3a0$3f8qf2@smtp4.ksc.net.th> <417b38867fff9d280c0b48b3796bf0e457b65bcf@localhost> Message-ID: Here is a list of articles on Pureland Buddhism, compiled for a fellowship that i facilitate: http://moonpointer.com/new/2009/03/pureland-practice-fellowship-articles / Hope they are useful. Amituofo, shi'an -----Original Message----- From: Franz Metcalf [mailto:franz at mind2mind.net] Sent: Tuesday, 17 March, 2009 1:46 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Pure Land Buddhism Dear Randall, First, apologies for listing you as having responded to Robert Ellis. Of course it was this post I was thinking of, where you ask about Pure Land reading. I am with you in seeing a remarkable resonance between Buddhadhasa's ideas the those of contemporary Jodo Shinshu, especially of the Higashi Honganji branch. Here is one source I know is easily accessible to you: http://www.livingdharma.org/Library.html This page is part of the West Covina Buddhist Church (a Jodo Shinshu temple in Southern California) website. Scroll down to the section "Modern Shinshu: The Teachings of Kiyozawa, Akegarasu and Maida" and you'll find some good entry level articles on contemporary Higashi Honganji Pure Land thought. The next section, "The Tannisho: A Shin Buddhist Classic" is also great. It contains the text (including the excellent introduction by Professor Taitetsu Unno) of Shonin Shinran's Tannisho. As that text is foundational to Japanese Pure Land--and is a short and great read--I'd suggest you looking into it as well. Cheers, Franz __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3934 (20090313) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. Email message - is OK Email message - is OK http://www.eset.com From franz at mind2mind.net Wed Mar 18 17:26:18 2009 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 16:26:18 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. scholarship and philosophy In-Reply-To: <8CB74F6622BE19B-156C-7783@FRR4-L27.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB74F6622BE19B-156C-7783@FRR4-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <988BE4D7-DC96-406E-BC76-DE8B4DCD75AD@mind2mind.net> Dear Robert, I fully agree with you when you write, > No set of facts about Buddhism are free of values, and Buddhist > scholars who think they are being scientifically neutral in their > treatment of Buddhism are actually preaching descriptive relativism. > If objectivity is a property of persons rather than of propositions > (as again the Middle Way, and many associated Buddhist insights, > would suggest), then greater objectivity can be gained through > committed investigation of the philosophical issues raised by > Buddhism than by merely describing it from a supposedly neutral > standpoint. In fact, this embrace of what Margaret Mead called "discipline subjectivity" is fundamental to my view of the human sciences, including religious studies. There is simply no such thing as objective scholarship in the humanities. In fact it is in recognizing our engagement, our subjectivity, and attending to the data that subjectivity provides us that we do our best human science work. In other words, the data and insights we get from recognizing and analyzing our subjective experience as we do human science are precisely the richest and most human we can get. It is precisely in this work that human science becomes truly a science--not a collection of denials and defenses masquerading as a discipline. This sort of (self)analysis sounds to me to be close to what you are advocating for the study of Buddhism. But when you write, > As I wrote in my last post about this, scholars of Buddhist Studies > in influential positions are preventing good philosophical work > being done because of their narrow-minded assumptions about what > constitutes Buddhist Studies. It is not a question of advocacy, but > of method. I think you are not accurately describing the field. *Some* scholars in Buddhist studies do discourage good work (philosophical or not) because they define the field too narrowly. Studying Buddhism primarily through the lens of psychology, I have fought against this narrowness my whole career. But some other scholars are actively promoting self-reflective and philosophically engaged Buddhist studies by their grad students. I could name many names here; these professor are not hard to find. Several, indeed, are active on this list. Further, I don't see why you are setting up a dichotomy of advocacy and method. I see things as grayer than you, perhaps. Or, better, I agree the issue is method: whether we include in our method data generated from our personal experience. As I say, this is a fundamental question in the human sciences, not merely in the field of Buddhist Studies or even Religious Studies. Glad your larger dialogue on karma is going better, Franz From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 19:38:18 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 02:38:18 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <66634efd0903181226m676cf960k139a54ef26347df5@mail.gmail.com> References: <66634efd0903181226m676cf960k139a54ef26347df5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1408122037.20090319023818@gmail.com> Caro Alberto, AT> I still don't quite understand why there should be a problem with AT> accepting some form of causality and not accepting karma *until* AT> sufficient evidence for it is presented, unless you are conflating AT> causality and karma. I'm not. me too. I'm not conflating both. There is not contradiction in not accepting kamma but accepting causality. However, the contradiction appears if we accept causality and seeing more contradictions in rebirth than in non-rebirth. Because if one accept causality, then kamma (even thinking is not a clear solution) becomes the simplest of two. I think the causal character of kamma is clear in Buddhism, and it is shared by everybody: "When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the stopping of this comes the stopping of that." AN 10.92 AT> As for the strangeness you mention, is it so outlandish to withhold AT> judgement until one has good reasons to believe something? no, that's wise. AT> With "the arising of things" are you referring to the origin of life AT> or the origin of the universe? Neither of these are explained by AT> karma. In fact, I imagine these are the kinds of concerns the Buddha AT> would advise to stay clear of. I refer to the arising of beings. Buddha explain this arising because kamma. The Buddha advice is to be far of speculation about "my past live" or "my future live", not about the arising of beings. Bhavana, the cultivation of the mind, also include awareness and contemplation of the perceived world. And the arising of beings and their differences are explained by kamma. AT> I still don't understand what you mean by 'rebirth'. Here and AT> elsewhere you make it sound like causality and rebirth are the same AT> thing. I disagree. Obviously, if you understand them to be the same AT> thing it will look to you that I am contradicting myself or, as you AT> put it, that I'm irrational. no, of course not the same thing. Well, to re-situate the point: we have two explanations for the arising of beings; non-rebirth (non-causal) and rebirth (causal). We have many causal theories to explain the arising of beings; among them metempsychosis, transmigration, reincarnation, rebirth, recorporation, metemsomatosis and palingenesy. all them are using a causal approach so they are closer to reason and logics. Because our logics and reason are characterized by the use of causality and our mind put order in the objects using space and time, to get what we call "logical" and to leave what we call improbable or illogical. When we don't apply such procedure to explain the arising of beings, then we are enter in a land inhabited by things called intuition, premonition, chance, miracle, revelation, absurdity, illogical, etc... When one believe the non-rebirth is more logical than rebirth, then also we must be aware that we are using a non-causal approach, and this position is another one among the rest. If we apply rationality then we are being forced to contemplate the causal approaches like the more simplest and logical. It was the case of the very empirical Hume, in example. AT> I've never claimed that I uphold non-causality. Are you still AT> conflating causality and rebirth? if we describe the movement of a ball we are not mixing the movement with the ball. >> Of course your position is quite equilibrated, AT> Wait, wasn't it irrational? just silence and isolation of problems. A typical scholar behavior in this problem. I don't know why westerns scholars cannot feel the Hume legacy an and many others like enough support. At all, in front there is only a absurdity imposed by political and criminal means and the darkness for the understanding. Btw, Rusell was quite shy in this matter, and also in a strange ambiguity with Buddhism which was quite interesting. AT> In general, I think we are pretty much talking past each other. I hope AT> other list members are finding us entertaining. truth is that I cannot keep isolated kamma from rebirth in the arising of being and consciousness. Buddha don't avoid such question. It is part of the Buddhist philosophy. I cannot see where is the crucial problem and why we must avoid that. This explanations is closer to reason, logics, and nature. And also supported by the best western philosophers. This strange effort of isolation sounds to the need of establishing a Philosophical Paradise to hide inconvenient things. And in these days such places are not popular :) best, From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 20:06:47 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 03:06:47 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <8CB75CC3BBD4663-464-1293@FRR5-L28.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB75CC3BBD4663-464-1293@FRR5-L28.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <19810496643.20090319030647@gmail.com> Robert wrote: RE> I thought that karma involves both justice and causality. If RE> karma was true, it would thus be reasonable to expect both. but Justice is a moral issue. You are seeing a complete portrait of a life (the good person) and later asking for a god reward. Kamma is not that. This is not dishonest but it exists in the Buddhist doctrine. You can find many episodes of people without an special good or bad life making only one concrete action which was able to decide a better or worse rebirth. You can see in example the tales of Vimana mansions edited by the Pali Society. Here all the examples are showing how one action causes a good or bad destiny, and the complete biography many times is quite secondary. RE> I expect causality of some type (and I agree with Kant that RE> causality is probably a conceptual scheme that we use to RE> understand the world), but karma asserts the universal existence RE> of a particular type of causality. It does not help to constantly RE> insist that karma is nothing more than ordinary causality: if it RE> were, why do Buddhists bother to talk about karma (rather than RE> just causality) at all? because with kamma we learn a way how to manage the phenomena in the present moment, no more things. Probably we don't talk of causality because kamma involves actions related with our will. Wayne Codling has a message explaining this RE> Skilfulness (kusala), as I understand it, involves addressing RE> conditions adequately. The notion of skilfulness is thus morally RE> helpful, but it has nothing to do with absolute karma, only with RE> addressing the conditions we find in our experience. I fear you are trying to impose your own logics of causality into the kamma idea. Kamma is not mathematics, neither causality is mathematics. RE> I agree with all that you say here about the limitations of our RE> understanding and reason. But surely the implication of this is RE> that we should not make absolute claims that go far beyond our RE> experience? I think yes. However, we must be aware that experience not only means the experience of the outer perceived world. RE> I wonder if your understanding of causal relationships is RE> actually Platonic? If I am not misunderstanding you, you seem to RE> be implying that our limited experience, despite its limitations, RE> nevertheless?provides rational access to essential truths about RE> the universe. This view seems to me to take insufficient account RE> of our degree of ignorance about the universe. The law of karma is RE> something expounded by human beings, and we do not have direct and RE> unequivocal access to God to check it out for us. if I'm right, according Buddhism, God is an state of mind able to embrace the universe, and it can be reached by human beings not only gods. There are truths explained and shared by humans and gods. Then wisdom would not be an accumulation of knowledge but the vanishing of ignorance. best regards, From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Wed Mar 18 20:56:36 2009 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:56:36 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religion and aggressive treatment In-Reply-To: <49C15FFC.1010501@telus.net> References: <8CB75CC3BBD4663-464-1293@FRR5-L28.sis.aol.com> <49C0FFD3.1000002@comp.nus.edu.sg><427DF8F61E734D97A00E0E557123D23F@OPTIPLEX> <49C15FFC.1010501@telus.net> Message-ID: Wayne Codling wrote... > It's probably significant that for Christians, post-mortem existence is > permanent. The stakes are high; eternal heaven or hell. Strange... if heaven is so desirable and you believe that by believing in Christ you for sure will get there, then shouldn't you want to get there earlier rather than later? W.F. Wong From waynewc at telus.net Wed Mar 18 21:23:31 2009 From: waynewc at telus.net (W. Codling) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 20:23:31 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religion and aggressive treatment In-Reply-To: References: <8CB75CC3BBD4663-464-1293@FRR5-L28.sis.aol.com> <49C0FFD3.1000002@comp.nus.edu.sg><427DF8F61E734D97A00E0E557123D23F@OPTIPLEX> <49C15FFC.1010501@telus.net> Message-ID: <49C1BAB3.8040104@telus.net> Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > > Wayne Codling wrote... > >> It's probably significant that for Christians, post-mortem existence is >> permanent. The stakes are high; eternal heaven or hell. >> > > Strange... if heaven is so desirable and you believe that by believing in > Christ you for sure will get there, then shouldn't you want to get there > earlier rather than later? Yes, right up until a moment of doubt arises. There will certainly be a moment of doubt before death actually occurs and if that moment of doubt arises well before then fear alone would prompt a wish to put off crossing that threshold. A moment of true doubt is a moment of true terror and those with limited familiarity with uncertainty could well cling to life, our only shot at heaven. From stroble at hawaii.edu Thu Mar 19 02:09:34 2009 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (andy) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:09:34 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. scholarship and philosophy In-Reply-To: <8CB74F6622BE19B-156C-7783@FRR4-L27.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB74F6622BE19B-156C-7783@FRR4-L27.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <200903182209.35195.stroble@hawaii.edu> On Monday 16 March 2009 23:03:34 Robert Ellis wrote: > Dear Franz, > Thanks for the positive encouragement. I take this to?imply that > philosophers are not in fact banned from Buddha-l. > This comment is raising my hackles! Philosophers are not scholars? But then, if I was a Buddhist, I would have no hackles to raise. In response to a later comment, what makes you think that karma has anything to do with justice? Like many, I am puzzled by your objections. -- Ari Fleisher said people should watch what they say. Obama says people should be careful who they listen to. See the difference? From robertupeksa at talktalk.net Thu Mar 19 04:14:02 2009 From: robertupeksa at talktalk.net (Robert Ellis) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 06:14:02 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. scholarship and philosophy Message-ID: <8CB76928EE23325-1784-40DD@FRR3-L28.sis.aol.com> Dear Franz, I'm glad we are agreeing on some central points, but I would disagree with one of the conclusions you draw from the impossibility of neutrality in scholarship of Buddhism: >> There is simply no such thing as objective scholarship in the humanities. In fact it is in recognizing our engagement, our subjectivity, and attending to the data that subjectivity provides us that we do our best human science work.<< If you agree that objectivity is personal, then there is indeed objectivity in the human sciences. The lack of a God's-eye view of things does not entail?a lack of objectivity, but rather that we can be freed to think of objectivity as?personal and incremental rather than in terms of?propositions that map?onto reality. Recognising our degree of subjectivity is itself a move towards objectivity, given that objectivity is founded on habitual awareness of conditions.? ?>>*Some* scholars in Buddhist studies do discourage good work (philosophical or not) because they define the field too narrowly. Studying Buddhism primarily through the lens of psychology, I have fought against this narrowness my whole career. But some other scholars are actively promoting self-reflective and philosophically engaged Buddhist studies by their grad students. I could name many names here; these professor are not hard to find. Several, indeed, are active on this list.<< If that's true, it's good to hear. However, my experience has been?different. I don't know where you're located (by your use of the word "professor" I'd guess it's the US), but my experience has been in the UK, where I found it impossible to pursue a philosophical approach within Buddhist?Studies. It was also difficult enough pursuing an approach inspired by Buddhist insights in Philosophy, but at least I managed to do so to Ph.D. level. It's also possible that we mean different things by "philosophically engaged Buddhist?Studies". Do you mean that some professors/ influential scholars?allow their students to make some comparisons with Western philosophy or psychology as a supplement to a basically scholarly approach? That has been going on for some time, and even very conservative scholars, such as Damien Keown, do this.?Or do you mean that they allow a?completely philosophical (or psychological)?approach? I have been engaged in the latter, attempting to do philosophy in a Buddhist-inspired way, but even found that my papers were rejected by journals purely for reasons of classification, because it wasn't Buddhist Studies?and it wasn't analytic or continental philosophy. I'd be interested to hear from any?subscribers to this list who have been following, or supporting, a completely philosophical approach, as opposed to?a mixed?philosophical/ scholarly one. ? >>Further, I don't see why you are setting up a dichotomy of advocacy and method. I see things as grayer than you, perhaps. Or, better, I agree the issue is method: whether we include in our method data generated from our personal experience.<< ? I certainly didn't intend to imply such a dichotomy. I just wanted to point out that it is not just a question of neutral scholarship vs. advocacy as suggested by the "Buddhist theology" debate you referred me to in the Journal of Global Buddhism. (How on earth did we get saddled with such a misnomer as Buddhist theology?). Personally, I am not doing "Buddhist theology", but a type of normative moral philosophy inspired by certain insights gained from Buddhism. There does seem to be a crucial difference between these approaches which needs pointing out. Although they may both use personal experience, the philosophical approach I am taking does not take any Buddhist doctrines for granted in the way one would expect any type of theology to take central religious?assumptions for granted. Best wishes, Robert Robert Ellis website: www.moralobjectivity.net From jkirk at spro.net Thu Mar 19 09:03:06 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:03:06 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religion and aggressive treatment In-Reply-To: References: <8CB75CC3BBD4663-464-1293@FRR5-L28.sis.aol.com> <49C0FFD3.1000002@comp.nus.edu.sg><427DF8F61E734D97A00E0E557123D23F@OPTIPLEX><49C15FFC.1010501@telus.net> Message-ID: <6883686CF89442A1B0C9C56790D68160@OPTIPLEX> Wayne Codling wrote... > It's probably significant that for Christians, post-mortem existence > is permanent. The stakes are high; eternal heaven or hell. Strange... if heaven is so desirable and you believe that by believing in Christ you for sure will get there, then shouldn't you want to get there earlier rather than later? W.F. Wong ====================== One's getting there is not achieved by wanting to, it happens according to god's will, the idea being that the stronger your faith and reliance on god's will, the better your chances. So perhaps demanding aggressive survival procedures might be due to last minute attempts to perfect one's faith? Joanna From at8u at virginia.edu Thu Mar 19 14:27:09 2009 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:27:09 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religion and aggressive treatment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49C2AA9D.4020304@virginia.edu> Hi, > Wayne Codling wrote... >> It's probably significant that for Christians, post-mortem existence is >> permanent. The stakes are high; eternal heaven or hell. W.F.Wong replied: > > Strange... if heaven is so desirable and you believe that by believing in > Christ you for sure will get there, then shouldn't you want to get there > earlier rather than later? "If a beast slain in the Jyoti??oma rite will itself go to heaven, why then does not the sacrificer forthwith offer his own father?" Allegedly this is part the C?rv?kas' criticism of Vedic sacrifices. Best, Alberto Todeschini From at8u at virginia.edu Thu Mar 19 14:32:44 2009 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:32:44 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Karma and consequences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49C2ABEC.3070801@virginia.edu> Bob Zeuschner wrote: > The common belief that karmically generated action rebounds upon the > agent, and somehow resembles the initial act (good deeds produce good > karma, bad deeds produce painful karmic consequences) is indeed > metaphysical and I have never seen any reason to think that it is a > correct description of the universe I inhabit. > It most certainly is not the simplest hypothesis. Exactly. That's one of the things I tried to say in my reply to Vicente, but you put it much more clearly. Best, Alberto Todeschini From at8u at virginia.edu Thu Mar 19 14:51:12 2009 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:51:12 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. scholarship and philosophy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49C2B040.2070203@virginia.edu> Robert Ellis wrote: "my experience has been in the UK, where I found it impossible to pursue a philosophical approach within Buddhist?Studies. It was also difficult enough pursuing an approach inspired by Buddhist insights in Philosophy, but at least I managed to do so to Ph.D. level." Dear Robert, I just wanted to mention the entirely anecdotal fact that I had a rather different experience while studying for my BA and MA in Buddhist Studies in the UK. I'm not entirely surprised by what you say, but I'm not sure that we can blame/credit our experiences on any general characteristic of the academic study of Buddhism in the UK rather than the particular situations or institutions we where in. Best, Alberto Todeschini From curt at cola.iges.org Thu Mar 19 14:52:49 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:52:49 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religion and aggressive treatment In-Reply-To: <49C0FFD3.1000002@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: <8CB75CC3BBD4663-464-1293@FRR5-L28.sis.aol.com> <49C0FFD3.1000002@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <49C2B0A1.3060606@cola.iges.org> "A vast majority of patients, religious or not, did not want heroic measures taken. Still, 11.3 percent of the most religious patients received mechanical ventilation during the last week of life, compared with only 3.6 percent of the least religious." The above is from the NYT article. So we are talking about less than 15% of all patients, in a study composed of 345 people. Of these 345 people ("most of them belonging to Christian denominations") who all face similar circumstances, only 51 of them chose what the researches deemed "heroic measures" - and of these 39 were among "the most religious" of the group and the other 12 were among "the least religious". I don't think there are going to be any flights to Stockholm being booked as a result of such momentous results. In the BBC online version of the same story there is this little tidbit that the NYT could not find space to fit in: "The researchers in this latest study stressed that religion had been widely associated with an improved ability to cope with the stress of illness." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7949111.stm Curt Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/18/health/research/18faith.html?partner=rss&emc=rss > > What is the Buddhist position on this, you think? > > W.F. Wong > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 16:50:49 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 23:50:49 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <49C2ABEC.3070801@virginia.edu> References: <49C2ABEC.3070801@virginia.edu> Message-ID: <1765610918.20090319235049@gmail.com> Alberto wrote: AT> Bob Zeuschner wrote: >> It most certainly is not the simplest hypothesis. AT> Exactly. That's one of the things I tried to say in my reply to Vicente, AT> but you put it much more clearly. complains about accuracy of kamma are very logical even needed. Kamma is an schema to be investigated, not an scientific development. However, it cannot drive to the position of avoiding causality for the human being (body-mind). It remember when men of the past believed in the end of the sea. It is not the simplest hypothesis but confuses the simplest with the shortest. best regards, From rbzeuschner at roadrunner.com Thu Mar 19 18:14:54 2009 From: rbzeuschner at roadrunner.com (Bob Zeuschner) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:14:54 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <1765610918.20090319235049@gmail.com> References: <49C2ABEC.3070801@virginia.edu> <1765610918.20090319235049@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C2DFFE.90705@roadrunner.com> I do not confuse "causality" (pratityasamutpada) with "karma" (consequences of moral deeds resemble the original action). Human beings act and consequences ensue. This claim seems to accord with the universe I live in. I see little empirical evidence to support the metaphysical claim that human beings act and the consequences of moral behavior resemble the initial action. If there is little empirical evidence to support the claim, there is little reason for me to believe it to be an accurate description of the world. The simplest hypothesis consistent with the empirical world we inhabit is that of causes and conditions, and effects. The hypothesis of karma adds another layer to causality which appears entirely unfalsifiable, hence not an empirical claim. For me, causality is not denied (although it is a difficult concept and when we generalize it, it becomes problematic), but I do not accept karma due to the fact that it is non-empirical (although it would be nice if karma were correct). Bob Vicente Gonzalez wrote: > > complains about accuracy of kamma are very logical even needed. > Kamma is an schema to be investigated, not an scientific development. > > However, it cannot drive to the position of avoiding causality for the > human being (body-mind). It remember when men of the past believed in > the end of the sea. It is not the simplest hypothesis but confuses the > simplest with the shortest. > > > best regards, > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From dharmafarer at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 23:39:34 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 13:39:34 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Schopen lauded In-Reply-To: References: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E081F3636@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <28265EB2AD994D78AE4AB5D85AF75F70@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: Dear Weng Fai, The Sutta is called ???????? D?? w?? zhu?? j??ng (The sutra on the five great turbidities). (T53 = 2122.1005c15-22). With metta, Piya Tan On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > > "Fa Yuan Zhu Lin" (T53 No. 2122 Fascicle 98, p. 1005) cites a certain "Great > Sutra of Five Disasters" - I failed to locate this in the Taisho but it is > crossed listed in some of the catalogues found in the Taisho): > > "According to the Great Sutra of Five Disasters, there are five chaos (luan) > during the End of Dharma times: > > 1. Bhiksus learn the Dharma from householders (bai yi - "white clothed > ones"). This is first chaos. > > 2. Householders are seated above and the bhiksus below (them). This is the > second chaos. > > 3. Bhiksus do not practice what they preach while householders think what > they teach is supreme. This is the third chaos. > > 4. Maras appear in the world as bhiksus and the world take what they preach > as the true Dharma. The Buddha-Dharma is no longer clear to the world and > all sorts of lies and falsehood are held as beliefs. This is the fourth > chaos. > > 5. Bhiksus have wives and servants, earns a livelihood and do not keep the > precepts, making them no different from householders. This is fifth chaos." > > Sounds reasonable to me. > > W.F. Wong > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Piya Tan > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:49 AM > > To: Buddhist discussion forum > > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Schopen lauded > > > > Weng Fai, > > > > Your citation please. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From jayarava at yahoo.com Fri Mar 20 05:32:49 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 04:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Eternalism Message-ID: <16186.84893.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Apologies for having to drop out of the philosophy debate, my health is not good at the moment. A colleague has asked me about the meaning of sassatadi??hi (sassatadi.t.thi) which PED equates sassata to Vedic ?a?vat ('sa'svat). The meaning "eternalism", with an emphasis on recurrance, seems clear enough, but I have been unable to identify the verbal root. There is ?a? "leap" but can this be it? Can anyone help with this? The Pali phrase occurs quite rarely and I am thinking about following it up, at least for my blog. Thanks Jayarava From jkirk at spro.net Fri Mar 20 08:22:30 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 08:22:30 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Eternalism In-Reply-To: <16186.84893.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <16186.84893.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jayarava, Did you look here? In, Whitney's _Roots, Verb-forms and Primary Derivatives_ http://www.archive.org/stream/rootsverbformspr00whitrich I tried (because I love looking up roots). Recklessly exposing my ignorance I'll offer the following hunches, which may of course be entirely irrelevant: could it be related to the root sah = prevail --p.184 p.212 top of page one can find root form sas coming before sah on the list v2. vaa = weave p. 157; one form that appears is vaataa ------ In M-W: vaTa [surrounded, covered], vata, vata, vAta, etc-- Best, Joanna =================================== Apologies for having to drop out of the philosophy debate, my health is not good at the moment. A colleague has asked me about the meaning of sassatadi??hi (sassatadi.t.thi) which PED equates sassata to Vedic ?a?vat ('sa'svat). The meaning "eternalism", with an emphasis on recurrance, seems clear enough, but I have been unable to identify the verbal root. There is ?a? "leap" but can this be it? Can anyone help with this? The Pali phrase occurs quite rarely and I am thinking about following it up, at least for my blog. Thanks Jayarava _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From franz at mind2mind.net Fri Mar 20 14:24:55 2009 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 13:24:55 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re. scholarship and philosophy In-Reply-To: <8CB76928EE23325-1784-40DD@FRR3-L28.sis.aol.com> References: <8CB76928EE23325-1784-40DD@FRR3-L28.sis.aol.com> Message-ID: <6100D1CB-9B8B-4543-BA51-ADD02E5D4172@mind2mind.net> Dear Robert, I believe I understand what you mean by "objectivity." I don't think anyone ever achieves it, but I agree that Buddhist-inspired awareness of conditions (inner and outer) is a practice that would lead toward it. This is why we agree that self-reflective work should be encouraged by teachers of religious studies, Buddhist studies in particular. I think the possibility of doing such practically or personally engaged work at the highest level of Buddhist studies scholarship must be greater in the States than in England. I have no idea what it's like on the Continent or in Asia or anywhere else. But, yes, I am saying that in Buddhist studies programs in the States one can do more than just make comparisons with Western philosophy and psychology. As a doctoral student, one would have to be very careful about making normative statements, though. Such statements might, for instance, not belong in a scholarly paper or a dissertation. But I think many professors would allow students to pursue this kind of work, as long as they were also able to maintain an awareness of it and keep it separate from other scholarly work, if necessary. Sounds to me that the trouble you have had may be more a result of narrowness in the field of philosophy than that of Buddhist studies. Departments and journals can be absurdly narrow in who and what they will accept. Sigh, Franz From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 15:27:01 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 22:27:01 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Karma and consequences In-Reply-To: <49C2DFFE.90705@roadrunner.com> References: <49C2ABEC.3070801@virginia.edu> <1765610918.20090319235049@gmail.com> <49C2DFFE.90705@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: <1262770830.20090320222701@gmail.com> Bob wrote: BZ> For me, causality is not denied (although it is a difficult concept and BZ> when we generalize it, it becomes problematic), but I do not accept BZ> karma due to the fact that it is non-empirical (although it would be BZ> nice if karma were correct). well, sorry for the longitude but this cannot be managed in few lines. There are many types of empiricism (radical, scientific, positivist, sensible, etc...). In fact, the appellation to empiricism has caused several aberration in the Scientific world. Today we have a thing called "Economic Sciences" inside Universities despite its incapacity for verification and prediction are widely known. Knowing what is exactly the empirical knowledge is still an open discussion. Sometimes empiricism is opposed to rationalism. We know our reason can provide us certainties without sensible experience, using only relations among objects (i.e: mathematics). Degrees of certainty in a metaphysical investigation must be measured in a similar way; by observing logics and relations. Here we must understand Metaphysics in its classic and best acception (from Greeks until Kant). I agree the failure in the empirical verification is real but empiricism is not enough in a metaphysical issue. The failure appears because we are looking the morality of actions expecting a moral counterpart. But first, we will fail to identify effects when are not morally present in our moral understanding. Second, these effects will be observed until our memory can reach. About the first, we don't have a metaphysical development in Buddhism to investigate the basis of Morality to establish a visible link with causality. This is strange. In the West only Arthur Schopenhauer was able to start such investigation in "On the Basis of Morality", translated to English by E.FJ. Payne. He is the only author in the human History examining the metaphysics of Morality under logics and reason. And btw, seeing this important contribution is amazing the silence and poor analysis of his metaphysics in the academic world. (Taboos are not only inside monasteries) His conclusion was the metaphysical basis of any authentic morality is compassion in its pure form. Because it implies a disindividuation and the complete recognition in other being. Schopenhauer gives the example of somebody saving other person in a sudden, non-reflective action, and dying himself in the effort. He said in such moment no idea of an "I" was present. An interest side of the Schopenhauer view, is having a basis to review our expectations of getting a "moral result", then about relation of kamma with causality. Because the moral consequences would be measured according detachment and disinviduation. Both can be implicit in good actions in degrees, but not always. Also, results would be quite variable and unexpected, in dependence of the selfishness or the attachment to the "I". So our knowledge of what is "morally logic" and the real possibilities to identify the relation of cause-effect would be very limited to affirm or to deny. What we can study, are the logics and certainty in the relations inside the same explanation. In this way can have a rational certainty supported by the evidence in the short scope. Later, it can be extended due to invariability of causality law. However, it demands a previous examinations of our common (and non-empiric) Descartes position about "I am", individuality and perceived world. Pratityasamutpada is an explanation of a dynamic process of what we call "mind" but in any way it is an explanation limited to one individual and his own mind. On the contrary, the notion of individuality appears because this process. What we call "be born", "being", "alive", "death", are not objects of knowledge sustained in a consciousness which is here by chance. The individual is called existent when consciousness arises to create what we call "individuality". So we exists because pratityasamutpada, not the inverse. The mind sustain an illusion of a being, and he is collecting illusory effects of illusory causes. Logically, this process creates other beings like him. Because "a being" is a causal consequence in this process. This being is not any special or miraculous event in the center of the universe. He is an illusion of individuality, and this illusion starts a land to host what we call sensible experience and empiric knowledge. In this way, sometimes he will recognize some effects like "mine" and sometimes not. He will be able to recognize only those events related with the threads of cause-effect inside what he identify like "my life". When this illusory individuality looks to herself in the search of answers, he will have a certainty according the vanishing of his own individuality in these movements. Because any experience that we call "truth" is not other thing than be closer to the mind in itself, and devoid of errors. Errors are all the distorted thoughts arising because the cognitions performed by this illusory individuality. While there is not empirical evidence, the Empiricism here is not relevant. Because we are talking about something which surpass the convention established by the individual to examine his own illusions. It is a problem about the nature of knowledge and existing, and here the scientific knowledge is another convention, exactly like pratityasamutpada. If we manage the Buddhist convention, kamma and rebirth becomes fully logics, and its rejection becomes non-rational. My view is many rejections are caused by attachment. The individuality demands empiric evidence that the arrow is not in the air forever, despite when he throw an stone he can see its fall. I'm saying that you are attached to Empiricism and I am attached to Kamma. Both attachments cannot be fruitful but this list must survive. best regards, From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Mar 20 17:17:37 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 18:17:37 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Korean Art at Met Museum of Art NYC References: <16186.84893.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701c9a9b2$0f124c20$2101a8c0@Dan> A NYTimes review of an art exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC on Choson Dynasty Korean art. Includes a slide show with some beautiful examples -- and Buddhism, of course, is one of the highlights. The articles historical overview is not bad for a newspaper. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/arts/design/20metr.html?pagewanted=all Dan Lusthaus From cfynn at gmx.net Fri Mar 20 00:09:29 2009 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 12:09:29 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Translating the Words of the Buddha conference Message-ID: <49C33319.9090603@gmx.net> << Landmark Translation Conference Draws World?s Leading Translators to Remote Himalayan Region Many of the world?s leading Tibetan-English translators are gathering March 15-20, 2009 in the tiny Indian village of Bir in northern India to map out the future of Dharma translation for generations to come. What they decide could help make Buddha Shakyamini?s core teachings available to millions worldwide. The Translating the Words of the Buddha Conference will be hosted by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche and the Khyentse Foundation at Deer Park Institute, a centre for study of classical Indian wisdom traditions. Leaders of all four Tibetan Buddhist lineages, including H.H the Dalai Lama, H.H the Karmapa, and H.H the Sakya Trizin have offered their blessings and supported to this landmark initiative. Participants include seven Rinpoches: Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche Jigme Khyentse Rinpoche Trulku Pema Wangyal Rinpoche Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche Doboom Trulku Rinpoche Trulku Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche Also attending are luminaries such as Gene Smith, Matthieu Ricard and Bob Thurman, and top translators from all four Tibetan Buddhist lineages, representatives from the major Tibetan-English translation houses around the world, and a number of publishers and patrons. The agenda includes topics such as initiating the full translation of the entire Buddhist canon, including the 108-volume Kangyur?the Buddha?s direct teachings that include many sutras never before translated into English. Translating those teachings from Sanskrit to Tibetan 1,000 years ago took nearly 100 years under Tibetan royal patronage. This gathering is intended to generate the collaboration among translators required to realize this vision in the west. According to the conference chair, Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche: ?I have arrived at the conviction that we cannot have a goal to make ?Tibetan Buddhism? a Western institution. For the Buddha?s teachings to truly thrive in our cultures and take root in our hearts, we must have a genuine Western Buddhism. For this genuine tradition to flourish and become fully integrated in the West, we must, in my view, have the words of the Buddha in English. A comprehensive English compilation of the Buddha?s words will serve as an authoritative bedrock for a living tradition.? The conference host, Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche says: ?My main reason for convening this conference is that I believe it's entirely possible that the survival of the Buddhadharma could depend on it being translated into other languages. I also believe that by translating and making available the Tibetan Buddhist texts to modern people, a vast swathe of Buddhist civilization and culture may be saved from global annihilation. It's clear we need to act quickly, and I believe the only way we can accomplish this monumental endeavor is by working together?pooling our skills, resources, experience and energy and coming up with a plan for translating the Buddhadharma. We must decide where we want this process to be in 10 years, 25 years, 50 years and 100 years? >> === There is a discussion board at: http://www.facebook.com/board.php?uid=59296950597 where some of the talks given at the conference are being posted. From jayarava at yahoo.com Sat Mar 21 01:46:57 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 00:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Translating the Words of the Buddha conference In-Reply-To: <49C33319.9090603@gmx.net> Message-ID: <844759.74302.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 20/3/09, Christopher Fynn wrote: > Landmark Translation Conference Draws World?s Leading > Translators to Remote Himalayan Region... Did anyone else imagine this being read in the voice of the movie trailer guy...? JR From cfynn at gmx.net Sat Mar 21 02:39:41 2009 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 14:39:41 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Translating the Words of the Buddha conference In-Reply-To: <844759.74302.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <844759.74302.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49C4A7CD.5040000@gmx.net> Jayarava wrote: > --- On Fri, 20/3/09, Christopher Fynn wrote: > >> Landmark Translation Conference Draws World?s Leading >> Translators to Remote Himalayan Region... > > Did anyone else imagine this being read in the voice of the movie trailer guy...? > > JR > The influence of Hollywood is there - Dzongsar Khyentse, the lama hosting this conference, is after all the maker of a couple of movies ("The Cup" and "Travellers & Magicians"). Some of the speeches on the discussion board at: are better than the blurb - which does go over the top. I think they are trying to attract patrons to help sponsor the project ~ and perhaps they think this kind of promotional language gets rich people to open their wallets. - Chris From dharmafarer at gmail.com Sun Mar 22 08:59:03 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 22:59:03 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Age of the Sutta Nipata In-Reply-To: References: <73252.90251.qm@web31707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200705121219.12914.rhayes@unm.edu> <8934d80a395dbe11d48f49db75b2764f@earthlink.net> <200705121509.34032.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: I find Wynne's book very refreshing after the utilitarian skepticism of Schopen & co. It is a book worth reading and treasuring, It is actually available for FREE download here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/7947338/The-Origin-of-Buddhist-Meditation It has a number of other good titles, too. Perhaps more writer could upload their titles here for the benefit of fund-challenged scholars. Piya Tan On Thu, May 24, 2007 at 10:17 PM, L.S. Cousins wrote: > Those interested in the age of the Suttanipaata might like to look at the > fifth chapter of Alexander Wynne's new book: > Wynne, Alexander, _The origin of Buddhist meditation_, Routledge, London, > 2007. > > He re-presents the arguments for the earliness of Sn and offers a strong > critique of some of Vetter's positions. > > Lance Cousins > > > Gang, >> >> Thanks to Piya, Richard, and especially Lance for their responses >> regarding the age of the Suttanipaata. I'm struck by Lance's contention that >> arguments on the earliness of texts tend to be circular or suffer from >> petitio principii. Very convenient to be a translator as well as a >> commentator in such a matter. One can then point to the authority of the apt >> text so much more easily when supporting one's conclusions/assumptions! >> >> In the end, as Lance says, "views are likely to differ on this." How >> delightful that I can go on thinking of both the Suttanipaata and parts of >> the Majjhimanikaaya as "early/authoritative" simply because I like them. >> >> (I'm hopeful and naive enough to think I would *not* do this in my own >> subfields of Buddhist practice in America and the depth psychology of >> Buddhism. Indeed, in those fields, what I *like* I'm especially *suspicious* >> of. But I will allow myself a little luxury of attachment in early Pali >> literature.) >> >> Franz >> > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From h.godavari at shaw.ca Mon Mar 23 20:28:13 2009 From: h.godavari at shaw.ca (h.godavari) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:28:13 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] [Fwd: Buddha - a Scythian Arian?] Message-ID: <49C8453D.6080504@shaw.ca> I sa this on another list.. How valid is this theory? regards hg. ============================ http://www.newkerala.com/nkfullnews-1-3900.html This story just came in from the Archaeologic Press. http://www.archaeologica.org/NewsPage.htm I think this story shall create a tsunami of new thinking on this topic. Jeff -- __._,_.___ ,_._,___ -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Attached Message Part Url: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20090323/25bc7f57/attachment.txt From cfynn at gmx.net Tue Mar 24 01:36:52 2009 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:36:52 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] [Fwd: Buddha - a Scythian Arian?] In-Reply-To: <49C8453D.6080504@shaw.ca> References: <49C8453D.6080504@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <49C88D94.9080607@gmx.net> Dear HG Does www.archaeologica.org really represent the "Archaeologic [sic] Press"? - Anyway the link on that site goes back to http://www.newkerala.com/ There we find the idea was first published in that august academic journal "The official newspaper of the Ukrainian Parliament" and that Prof. Bebik, who makes the claim, is a Doctor of Political Sciences. Further the article goes on to reveal: << 'It is quite possible that Buddha belonged to the Scythian nation of Budins that lived on the territory of Ancient Ukraine during the first or the second millennium BC. The name of the nation is still preserved in the names of Ukraine?s contemporary settlements-Seredina-Buda, Buda, and some others,'' he said. ''Everything is clear from the ethnic point of view. Buddha was a Scythian Arian, a member of the Budin tribe. The descendants of the tribe still live in the Sumsky and the Chernigov region of Ukraine, as well as on the neighbouring lands of Belarus and Russia,'' he said. Bebik earlier also published a number of his articles in the official newspaper of the Ukrainian Parliament. He wrote his previous articles for the paper to 'prove' the remarkable role of the Ukrainian civilization, which endowed the world with spiritual enlightenment, outstanding prophets, philosophers and leaders. In 2008-2009, the Ukrainian professor shared his amazing observations of Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece and the ethnic origin of Jesus Christ. ''The name of Egypt's major temple, Het-ka-Ptah, sounds very much like Ukrainian words 'hata' and 'ptaha' ('house' and 'bird'). The pictures on the Egyptian pyramids show that Egyptian queens were blonde women with blue eyes, just like many Ukrainian women. One should also pay attention to the fact that the trident, which is currently the minor national emblem of Ukraine, can often be seen there too,'' he wrote. ''We have already outlined the facts that placed in question the official, the church version of the ethnic origin and the Biblical dates of the life of Jesus Christ and the historical epoch, in which the basis of Christianity was formed. It looks like Christ actually lived 3,000 years before his canonical birth and spoke the Coptic language, which is a close language to the ancestors of contemporary Ukrainians,'' the scholar wrote. >> My guess is that Prof. Bebik's entertaining ideas ~ which should have been published a week from today ~ are unlikely to cause even a ripple of "new thinking" - though there may be a small wave of disbelief. - Chris h.godavari wrote: > > > > I sa this on another list.. How valid is this theory? > regards > hg. > ============================ > > http://www.newkerala.com/nkfullnews-1-3900.html > > > This story just came in from the Archaeologic Press. > http://www.archaeologica.org/NewsPage.htm > > > I think this story shall create a tsunami of new thinking on this topic. > > Jeff > -- From jayarava at yahoo.com Tue Mar 24 02:25:51 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 01:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] [Fwd: Buddha - a Scythian Arian?] In-Reply-To: <49C8453D.6080504@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <762817.27347.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have seen this claim before and it seems that the confusion is between the ?akyan ('sakyan) clan, and the ?aka ('saka aka Scythian) people. The Buddha was not a ?aka, and as far as I know there is no evident that the Scythians were anywhere near East Indian by 500BCE, although they did briefly rule Gandh?ra (in the far north-west) during the 1st century BCE. I don't see the link between Buda and buddha. Given that it is used in Hungarian names we might question whether it is Slavic (and hence Indo-european) at all, though a Slavic origin is suggested as a possibility on Wikipedia, from the name Budimir and maybe this is the source of the Ukranian name? It may well be that there are ethnic, cultural and linguistic links between north Indian and the Ukraine - Indo-?ryan languages for instance - but it's more likely that common source was in what is now southern Turkmenistan ca 2000 BCE. Despite his high class Brahmin surname "Gautama", and despite being described as a k?atriya, it is more likely that the Buddha was not an ?ryan at all. The ?ryanisation of the north east wasn't fully accomplished until after A?oka (mid 3rd century BCE). Indo-aryan languages seem to have spread faster than the '?ryan' people themselves, and I don't fully understand this yet - something to do with technology? Note that the author is a professor of *political* science, and "He wrote his previous articles for the paper to 'prove' the remarkable role of the Ukrainian civilization". So what we're looking at is a declared nationalist political 'scientist' probably looking for points of difference with the Russians to bolster Ukrainian national pride, and secure government funding for his research. Best wishes Jayarava From cfynn at gmx.net Tue Mar 24 06:45:25 2009 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:45:25 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] [Fwd: Buddha - a Scythian Arian?] In-Reply-To: <762817.27347.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <762817.27347.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49C8D5E5.1060204@gmx.net> Jayarava wrote: > I have seen this claim before and it seems that > the confusion is between the ?akyan ('sakyan) clan, > and the ?aka ('saka aka Scythian) people. The Buddha > was not a ?aka, and as far as I know there is no evident > that the Scythians were anywhere near East Indian by 500BCE, > although they did briefly rule Gandh?ra (in the far > north-west) during the 1st century BCE. Since this professor of political sciences puts Jesus at 3,000 BCE, I wonder when he imagines the Buddha lived? - C From gouin.me at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 07:30:31 2009 From: gouin.me at gmail.com (Margaret Gouin) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:30:31 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Supernatural agents Message-ID: Just spotted this new book on another list. Supernatural Agents : Why We Believe in Souls, Gods, and Buddhas I must confess that it hadn't occurred to me that Buddhas were supernatural agents, and could be bracketed with souls and gods. From jkirk at spro.net Tue Mar 24 11:05:43 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:05:43 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Fake monks village in Vietnam Message-ID: How the merit system gets exploited by the demerit system. Joanna ============================ http://english.vietnamnet.vn/reports/2009/03/834610/ Village of fake Buddhist monks "Impersonating Buddhist monks is a "hereditary occupation" in Village 5, Nghia Dong commune, Tan Ky district, in the central province of Nghe An. Village 5 is called the village of 'fake monks.'" From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Mar 24 20:15:27 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:15:27 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] China, Dalai Lama and S. African Peace Conference References: Message-ID: <009b01c9acef$9080a140$2101a8c0@Dan> Peace Conference is South Africa cancelled due to protests that the South African govt. buckled to pressure from China to exclude the Dalai Lama. Dan from NYTimes Peace Conference in South Africa Is Canceled By CELIA W. DUGGER Published: March 24, 2009 JOHANNESBURG - Organizers of a peace conference that was to have been attended by five Nobel Peace Prize winners in Johannesburg said Tuesday that they had canceled the conference after the South African government denied entry to the Dalai Lama, Tibet's spiritual leader and one of the Nobel laureates. Two of South Africa's Nobel winners, Desmond Tutu, the retired Anglican archbishop, and former President F.W. de Klerk, condemned the government for giving in to pressure from China to block the Dalai Lama's entry and said they would refuse to participate in the conference this Friday if he was not there. The executive director of the Norwegian Nobel Committee, Geir Lundestad, also said he would stay away. read the rest at http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/25/world/africa/25safrica.html?hpw From jkirk at spro.net Tue Mar 24 21:00:55 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:00:55 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] China, Dalai Lama and S. African Peace Conference In-Reply-To: <009b01c9acef$9080a140$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <009b01c9acef$9080a140$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <885F60677EDB4599A323FC45C6FBD714@OPTIPLEX> Finally, some people are standing up to China. Joanna ================ Peace Conference is South Africa cancelled due to protests that the South African govt. buckled to pressure from China to exclude the Dalai Lama. Dan from NYTimes Peace Conference in South Africa Is Canceled By CELIA W. DUGGER Published: March 24, 2009 From bluelotus3 at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 00:37:37 2009 From: bluelotus3 at gmail.com (P Amin) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:07:37 +0530 Subject: [Buddha-l] Karma and consequences Message-ID: <6b27d1af0903252337t2089e734y6b9ac4516e20c749@mail.gmail.com> re:Karma and consequences once again...i am just a student of Buddhism or rather a fan of Buddha for his compassion for all living beings...it not my place say anything amongst the scholars. but, just a thought from an armature..... the concept of karma seem to match with the concept of heaven and hell of chrisitinty. to me religion is nature and nature is religion! and nature follows justice?? fascinating and satisfying!! parul amin india From jmp at peavler.org Thu Mar 26 13:07:32 2009 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:07:32 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <6b27d1af0903252337t2089e734y6b9ac4516e20c749@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b27d1af0903252337t2089e734y6b9ac4516e20c749@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5A429266-98A6-4961-8DE1-429E2AAD94A9@peavler.org> David Lopez Jr apparently has a new book about Science and Buddhism. Does anyone on this list know about it? I have just read a review of it that makes it seem (possibly unintentionally) a bit squirrelly. Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Mar 26 14:55:49 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:55:49 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism References: <6b27d1af0903252337t2089e734y6b9ac4516e20c749@mail.gmail.com> <5A429266-98A6-4961-8DE1-429E2AAD94A9@peavler.org> Message-ID: <005801c9ae55$3e192be0$2101a8c0@Dan> Jim Peaver asks: > David Lopez Jr apparently has a new book about Science and Buddhism. > Does anyone on this list know about it? I have just read a review of > it that makes it seem (possibly unintentionally) a bit squirrelly. Then it must be by Lopez, who's been certifiable squirrel-food for years. (Chasing the hot topic of the day is the other shoe dropping.) To the extent he wants to his continue his post-colonial diatribe, he would have to insist that Buddhism is NOT science. To the extent he wants to follow current hot interest, viz. science (esp. neuroscience, etc.) and Buddhism / meditation / physics / medicine / etc., he would have allow for crumbs and teasers. Is that why it's squirrely? An agenda having nothing to do with either Buddhism or science? (Haven't seen the book or any blurbs, so this may all be irrelevant) Dan From curt at cola.iges.org Thu Mar 26 14:11:22 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:11:22 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <005801c9ae55$3e192be0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <6b27d1af0903252337t2089e734y6b9ac4516e20c749@mail.gmail.com> <5A429266-98A6-4961-8DE1-429E2AAD94A9@peavler.org> <005801c9ae55$3e192be0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <49CBE16A.9000101@cola.iges.org> The blurb itself doesn't look too bad: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/presssite/metadata.epl?mode=synopsis&bookkey=332602 And he also has "Six Episodes in Buddhism and Science" here (this looks a bit more squirrelly, in my opinion - and not in a good way): http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493121.html Curt Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Jim Peaver asks: > >> David Lopez Jr apparently has a new book about Science and Buddhism. >> Does anyone on this list know about it? I have just read a review of >> it that makes it seem (possibly unintentionally) a bit squirrelly. >> > > Then it must be by Lopez, who's been certifiable squirrel-food for years. > (Chasing the hot topic of the day is the other shoe dropping.) To the extent > he wants to his continue his post-colonial diatribe, he would have to insist > that Buddhism is NOT science. To the extent he wants to follow current hot > interest, viz. science (esp. neuroscience, etc.) and Buddhism / meditation / > physics / medicine / etc., he would have allow for crumbs and teasers. Is > that why it's squirrely? An agenda having nothing to do with either Buddhism > or science? > > (Haven't seen the book or any blurbs, so this may all be irrelevant) > > Dan > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Thu Mar 26 15:00:00 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:00:00 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <5A429266-98A6-4961-8DE1-429E2AAD94A9@peavler.org> References: <6b27d1af0903252337t2089e734y6b9ac4516e20c749@mail.gmail.com> <5A429266-98A6-4961-8DE1-429E2AAD94A9@peavler.org> Message-ID: <6264C1FA79B442E6913FEDBFF631DAC7@OPTIPLEX> David? you mean Donald S. Lopez, Jr. Buddhism and Science: A Guide for the Perplexed (Buddhism and Modernity); U Chicago Pr., 2008? I can't imagine U Chicago Pr. publishing anything squirrelly, but maybe I'm being naive......... Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Jim Peavler Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:08 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism David Lopez Jr apparently has a new book about Science and Buddhism. Does anyone on this list know about it? I have just read a review of it that makes it seem (possibly unintentionally) a bit squirrelly. Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Thu Mar 26 15:01:45 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:01:45 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism References: <6b27d1af0903252337t2089e734y6b9ac4516e20c749@mail.gmail.com> <5A429266-98A6-4961-8DE1-429E2AAD94A9@peavler.org> Message-ID: David? you mean Donald S. Lopez, Jr. Buddhism and Science: A Guide for the Perplexed (Buddhism and Modernity); U Chicago Pr., 2008? I can't imagine U Chicago Pr. publishing anything squirrelly, but maybe I'm being naive......... Joanna Plus: amazon reviews: Review "This fascinating book provides a new way of understanding the various discussions of Buddhism and science that have taken place over the past 150 years. Lopez not only gives an account of the diverse claims made for the scientific credibility of Buddhism, but in the process offers deep insights into the complex relations among science, religion, and Western modernity. The science and religion field would be vastly enriched by more studies such as this."-Peter Harrison, University of Oxford (Peter Harrison, University of Oxford ) "For philosophers and cognitive scientists interested in psychological and ethical improvement Lopez's new book is must reading. Mind scientists report that Buddhists are especially happy and serene. What does this mean? Are concepts such as `suffering,' `happiness,' and `equanimity' understood the same in Buddhism and in science? Lopez is exactly the right historian to take us on this expert tour of the Buddhism and science dialogues as they have developed over the past two centuries in the West. At a time when glib enthusiasts for Buddhism and science claim vindication through the other, Lopez is the wise historically sensitive voice who asks us to reflect on which science, which Buddhism we are talking about."-Owen Flanagan, Duke University (Owen Flanagan, Duke University ) -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Jim Peavler Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:08 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism David Lopez Jr apparently has a new book about Science and Buddhism. Does anyone on this list know about it? I have just read a review of it that makes it seem (possibly unintentionally) a bit squirrelly. Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From alex at chagchen.org Thu Mar 26 15:19:35 2009 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 08:19:35 +1100 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <49CBE16A.9000101@cola.iges.org> References: <6b27d1af0903252337t2089e734y6b9ac4516e20c749@mail.gmail.com> <5A429266-98A6-4961-8DE1-429E2AAD94A9@peavler.org> <005801c9ae55$3e192be0$2101a8c0@Dan> <49CBE16A.9000101@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <002301c9ae58$93603280$ba209780$@org> I was going to ask what "squirrely" meant, but when I read Curt's second link I got it! Just to pick on the first one, I have been astonished how many statements of one sort or another are falsely attributed to Einstein. Taking my cue from "factoids" I'm tempted to call them "thoughtoids". He has clearly become a culture hero for the would-be-thinking man. I think Lopez's first point says more about the curious position of Einstein in popular culture than it does about any relationship between Buddhism and science. ????????????????????????????? ????? All the best Alex Wilding Blog: http://dangzang.blogspot.com/ > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Curt Steinmetz > Sent: Friday, 27 March 2009 7:11 AM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism > > The blurb itself doesn't look too bad: > http://www.press.uchicago.edu/presssite/metadata.epl?mode=synopsis&bookkey= > 332602 > > And he also has "Six Episodes in Buddhism and Science" here (this looks > a bit more squirrelly, in my opinion - and not in a good way): > http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493121.html > > Curt From alex at chagchen.org Thu Mar 26 15:24:18 2009 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 08:24:18 +1100 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <6b27d1af0903252337t2089e734y6b9ac4516e20c749@mail.gmail.com> <5A429266-98A6-4961-8DE1-429E2AAD94A9@peavler.org> Message-ID: <002401c9ae59$3921f960$ab65ec20$@org> Sorry for double post, but if the book is about "Buddhism and Science: A Guide for the Perplexed", does that mean that those of us who are perfectly happy with the disparate views, assumptions, methods and history found in both these fields, and who find them perhaps rich and fascinating but not perplexing would not be advised to read? ????????????????????????????? ????? All the best Alex Wilding Blog: http://dangzang.blogspot.com/ From jmp at peavler.org Thu Mar 26 15:28:54 2009 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:28:54 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <6264C1FA79B442E6913FEDBFF631DAC7@OPTIPLEX> References: <6b27d1af0903252337t2089e734y6b9ac4516e20c749@mail.gmail.com> <5A429266-98A6-4961-8DE1-429E2AAD94A9@peavler.org> <6264C1FA79B442E6913FEDBFF631DAC7@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1E007D0F-F954-4071-A1EF-38DA27A4E76C@peavler.org> On Mar 26, 2009, at 3:00 PM, jkirk wrote: > David? > you mean Donald S. Lopez, Jr. Buddhism and Science: A Guide for > the Perplexed (Buddhism and Modernity); U Chicago Pr., 2008? Yes, it is Donald S Lopez. My careless error. I have not read the book -- only a review to see if the book sounded like I ought to read it. It seems a little late in the day to flog some imaginative scientists of a couple of decades ago for claiming to believe that perhaps the ancient Hindu's understood quantum physics. It seems a mite brash to claim that the Dali Lama is not a buddhist because he goes around saying that current buddhists (of his calling) should try to take account of modern science in their world view. The review I read suggests what Dan Lusthaus said, that he is likely to grab all the hot buttons he can and mush them together in what purports to be leading us through the precarious twists and turns of the history of religion and the history of science. I am always skeptical of scientists writing about religion (other than their own) or of religious writing about science. As a person who once considered himself a historian of science and a hobbyist in the history of buddhism, I guess I am doubly skeptical about anyone who claims to make good sense of both at the same time. Here is the review for your perusal. http://www.miller-mccune.com//culture_society/parallel-paths-1076 Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org From jmp at peavler.org Thu Mar 26 15:37:00 2009 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:37:00 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <002401c9ae59$3921f960$ab65ec20$@org> References: <6b27d1af0903252337t2089e734y6b9ac4516e20c749@mail.gmail.com> <5A429266-98A6-4961-8DE1-429E2AAD94A9@peavler.org> <002401c9ae59$3921f960$ab65ec20$@org> Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2009, at 3:24 PM, Alex Wilding wrote: > Sorry for double post, but if the book is about "Buddhism and > Science: A > Guide for the Perplexed", does that mean that those of us who are > perfectly > happy with the disparate views, assumptions, methods and history > found in > both these fields, and who find them perhaps rich and fascinating > but not > perplexing would not be advised to read? I think you might find yourself discomfited by a prickly thicket of inconsistencies. It sounds like the book might best serve people who don't know much about science nor religion and doesn't really want to much. But I am possibly being totally unfair and it may be that I could read the book with great profit. > > > All the best > Alex Wilding > Blog: http://dangzang.blogspot.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Mar 26 16:40:51 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:40:51 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism References: <6b27d1af0903252337t2089e734y6b9ac4516e20c749@mail.gmail.com><5A429266-98A6-4961-8DE1-429E2AAD94A9@peavler.org><6264C1FA79B442E6913FEDBFF631DAC7@OPTIPLEX> <1E007D0F-F954-4071-A1EF-38DA27A4E76C@peavler.org> Message-ID: <009a01c9ae63$ea776ba0$2101a8c0@Dan> >As a person who once considered > himself a historian of science and a hobbyist in the history of > buddhism, I guess I am doubly skeptical about anyone who claims to > make good sense of both at the same time. One man's skeptic is another man's grump. If there's anything more fun than being grumpy (and that IS fun), it's being grumpy together with another aging fart on the porch with an enjoyable beverage. Bottoms up, Jim! Dan From at8u at virginia.edu Thu Mar 26 16:34:46 2009 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:34:46 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49CC0306.8080308@virginia.edu> Dear All, I think a more apt title would be something like "Buddhism and Rationality in the second half of the 19th century and early 20th." I felt like I had read most of the book elsewhere. And I found it a little thin on substance. I think the blurbs are, as always, exaggerated. The chapter on neuroscience is particularly bad. Perhaps Lopez felt like he had to say something about it since it is such a hot topic, but he doesn't come across as being qualified for the task. In short, a disappointing read. Best, Alberto Todeschini From jkirk at spro.net Thu Mar 26 20:39:23 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 20:39:23 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <49CC0306.8080308@virginia.edu> References: <49CC0306.8080308@virginia.edu> Message-ID: <1CDA710D077F4D1C8B12E8BEFBF1DCB9@OPTIPLEX> Maybe he was angling for a raise in pay and had to publish something. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Alberto Todeschini Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:35 PM To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism Dear All, I think a more apt title would be something like "Buddhism and Rationality in the second half of the 19th century and early 20th." I felt like I had read most of the book elsewhere. And I found it a little thin on substance. I think the blurbs are, as always, exaggerated. The chapter on neuroscience is particularly bad. Perhaps Lopez felt like he had to say something about it since it is such a hot topic, but he doesn't come across as being qualified for the task. In short, a disappointing read. Best, Alberto Todeschini _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Thu Mar 26 20:48:06 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 20:48:06 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Development in Arakan, Burma and by formerly Buddhist countries China and Korea Message-ID: <853EFCAADD8C4BC698833427A91AD202@OPTIPLEX> Subject: Human Rights Impact of Gas Development in Burma Dear ERI Supporters: In a March 19 Time Magazine feature-length article, ?The Scramble for a Piece of Burma,? Hannah Beech reports on the impacts of oil and gas development in the ethnic territories of military-ruled Burma. The expos? focuses in part on Arakan State in western Burma, where a consortium led by South Korea?s Daewoo International, in partnership with the China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) and the Burmese regime, are developing the Shwe Gas Project, Burma?s largest ever natural resource extraction project, intended to transport gas to China via an overland pipeline. The article notes how the planned Shwe gas pipeline to China ?will likely result in extensive village relocations? and how dissidents in ethnic Arakan State are currently being rounded up by the authorities and disappeared. Well, hey! Buddhists are only human, right? Joanna ============== ERI [Earth Rights International, an NGO] and the Shwe Gas Movement (SGM) ? a local ethnic Arakan opposition to the Shwe project ? documented these and other current and potential impacts of the Shwe Project in a 2008 OECD complaint to the Korean Government. The complaint focused on violations of international law and breaches of the OECD Guidelines for Multinational Enterprises by South Korea?s Daewoo International and the Korea Gas Corporation (KOGAS), through their involvement in the Shwe project. Filed in Seoul at the office of the Korean OECD National Contact Point (NCP) on October 28, 2008, the complaint was rejected on Nov. 27, 2008, with the Korean government claiming that it ?finds it hard to assume that the involved corporations breached the OECD Guidelines for Multinational Enterprises [and] does not see a necessity to initiate an additional investigation or an arbitration.? The Korean government has the largest, controlling stake in KOGAS and has provided Daewoo International with sizable loans to proceed with the Shwe project. The Shwe gas is estimated to be worth upwards of 40 billion US dollars, according to the Shwe Gas Movement. Time Magazine quotes ERI co-founder and Executive Director Ka Hsaw Wa, who commented, "Multinationals are getting rich off Burma, and so is the military regime It is the local people who are suffering and dying." ERI is working to stop the Shwe project until it can proceed without adverse human rights and environmental impacts, and is working to strengthen corporate accountability worldwide. According to Time Magazine, ?In the end, it may be the foreign participants in this new Great Game, unschooled in how to navigate ethnic complexities, who will get bitten.? Time Magazine Reports on Human Rights Impacts of Gas Development in Burma For more information on the Shwe Project, see also The Shwe Gas Movement at www.shwe.org From jkirk at spro.net Thu Mar 26 21:33:29 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 21:33:29 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Development in Arakan, Burma and by formerly Buddhist countries China and Korea Message-ID: <161D561A7D544A89B45F6DDB19507A58@OPTIPLEX> Well, hey! Buddhists are only human, right? Joanna ============== ERI [Earth Rights International, an NGO] and the Shwe Gas Movement (SGM) - a local ethnic Arakan opposition to the Shwe project - documented these and other current and potential impacts of the Shwe Project in a 2008 OECD complaint to the Korean Government . The complaint focused on violations of international law and breaches of the OECD Guidelines for Multinational Enterprises by South Korea's Daewoo International and the Korea Gas Corporation (KOGAS), through their involvement in the Shwe project. Filed in Seoul at the office of the Korean OECD National Contact Point (NCP) on October 28, 2008, the complaint was rejected on Nov. 27, 2008, with the Korean government claiming that it "finds it hard to assume that the involved corporations breached the OECD Guidelines for Multinational Enterprises.[and] does not see a necessity to initiate an additional investigation or an arbitration." The Korean government has the largest, controlling stake in KOGAS and has provided Daewoo International with sizable loans to proceed with the Shwe project. The Shwe gas is estimated to be worth upwards of 40 billion US dollars, according to the Shwe Gas Movement. Time Magazine quotes ERI co-founder and Executive Director Ka Hsaw Wa, who commented, "Multinationals are getting rich off Burma, and so is the military regime.It is the local people who are suffering and dying." ERI is working to stop the Shwe project until it can proceed without adverse human rights and environmental impacts, and is working to strengthen corporate accountability worldwide. According to Time Magazine, "In the end, it may be the foreign participants in this new Great Game, unschooled in how to navigate ethnic complexities, who will get bitten." Time Magazine Reports on Human Rights Impacts of Gas Development in Burma For more information on the Shwe Project, see also The Shwe Gas Movement at www.shwe.org From jmp at peavler.org Fri Mar 27 06:36:18 2009 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 06:36:18 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <009a01c9ae63$ea776ba0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <6b27d1af0903252337t2089e734y6b9ac4516e20c749@mail.gmail.com><5A429266-98A6-4961-8DE1-429E2AAD94A9@peavler.org><6264C1FA79B442E6913FEDBFF631DAC7@OPTIPLEX> <1E007D0F-F954-4071-A1EF-38DA27A4E76C@peavler.org> <009a01c9ae63$ea776ba0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <845D92E6-4FAB-44D6-AECE-F687748B8CEA@peavler.org> Thank you for the support! Yes, it IS fun to ge a grump, and a hard- earned privilege for us old farts. And it is especially gratifying to be joined by other grumpy old farts, especially if they are also old friends. (I meant grumps who have been friends for a long time). On Mar 26, 2009, at 4:40 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: >> As a person who once considered >> himself a historian of science and a hobbyist in the history of >> buddhism, I guess I am doubly skeptical about anyone who claims to >> make good sense of both at the same time. > > > One man's skeptic is another man's grump. If there's anything more > fun than > being grumpy (and that IS fun), it's being grumpy together with > another > aging fart on the porch with an enjoyable beverage. Bottoms up, Jim! > > Dan > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org From jmp at peavler.org Fri Mar 27 07:06:27 2009 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 07:06:27 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lopez's book on Science and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <845D92E6-4FAB-44D6-AECE-F687748B8CEA@peavler.org> References: <6b27d1af0903252337t2089e734y6b9ac4516e20c749@mail.gmail.com><5A429266-98A6-4961-8DE1-429E2AAD94A9@peavler.org><6264C1FA79B442E6913FEDBFF631DAC7@OPTIPLEX> <1E007D0F-F954-4071-A1EF-38DA27A4E76C@peavler.org> <009a01c9ae63$ea776ba0$2101a8c0@Dan> <845D92E6-4FAB-44D6-AECE-F687748B8CEA@peavler.org> Message-ID: > Thanks to all of you who responded to my request for information about Lopez and his new book. It sounds like the review I read was close on several points, while being gracious as possible as non-technical book reviewers ought to be. Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org From jkirk at spro.net Fri Mar 27 09:06:26 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 09:06:26 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Development in Arakan, Burma and by formerly Buddhist countries China and Korea In-Reply-To: <161D561A7D544A89B45F6DDB19507A58@OPTIPLEX> References: <161D561A7D544A89B45F6DDB19507A58@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Apologies for double posting. Joanna ======================== -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of jkirk Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:33 PM From jayarava at yahoo.com Sat Mar 28 11:34:33 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 10:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Eternalism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <355182.47015.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Joanna, Sorry for not replying earlier - I'm a bit scattered at the mo. I was assuming that -vat was a possessive, and ?a? a verbal root rather than treating the word as another kind of compound. I don't see any derivatives of sah > ?a? or sas > ?a?. So you would have to explain to me how that works. Although MW Dict does suggest that some (whoever they are) believe it to be sasvat originally and related to greek "apas". There is a root ?a? (bottom of p.171 of Whitney) that means leap, but I'm not sure that "possessing a leap" or "leaper" is close enough to constitute a valid etymology - what would the metaphor be I wonder. Leaping from one life to the next? ?a?aka is a rabbit/hare (one who leaps), and ?a?in is a name for the moon where the Indians thought a hare resided. Perhaps it is simply a single word? It's funny that it hasn't received more attention as it is that kind of eternalism that forms one of the extremes against which the Buddha preaches the middle-way. Not at all what we think of as eternalism I think. Thanks for having a go anyway. Jayarava From jkirk at spro.net Sat Mar 28 12:12:30 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 12:12:30 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Eternalism In-Reply-To: <355182.47015.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <355182.47015.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1911F1F22C7F4DB6831BCA7CEB8D6750@OPTIPLEX> Jayarava-- Thanks for your reply---------Here is what I was thinking about the conundrum, taking a different route: sah, accdg. to Whitney meaning prevail, could in the context of the word you were researching, be based on a well-known consonant shift that occurs a lot in IE words, from s to h, or vice versa. Also, p.212 top of page one can find root form sas coming before sah on the list (with no sign of 'sa's or any of the other s phonemes). The meaning of sah does seem to suit eternalism, in the sense of what prevails (never-ending). I'm not assuming vat as a possessive but as part of a compound. So that's why I tried v2. vaa = weave p. 157; one form that appears is vaataa. Sometimes the length of a vowell also varies over time, doesn't it? Don't we see this as between some Skt words? like gaandharva often is written as gandharva, etc. You wrote, " 'eternalism', with an emphasis on recurrance..." Weaving can suggest recurrance, as the strands of a weave surface up and then down, they recur. Thus, in this case I think a consonantal shift occurred. The leap root doesn't make sense, to either one of us :) Do my suggestions make any sense now? Thanks for starting another fun with roots thread. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [ mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Jayarava Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 11:35 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Eternalism Hi Joanna, Sorry for not replying earlier - I'm a bit scattered at the mo. I was assuming that -vat was a possessive, and ?a? a verbal root rather than treating the word as another kind of compound. I don't see any derivatives of sah > ?a? or sas > ?a?. So you would have to explain to me how that works. Although MW Dict does suggest that some (whoever they are) believe it to be sasvat originally and related to greek "apas". There is a root ?a? (bottom of p.171 of Whitney) that means leap, but I'm not sure that "possessing a leap" or "leaper" is close enough to constitute a valid etymology - what would the metaphor be I wonder. Leaping from one life to the next? ?a?aka is a rabbit/hare (one who leaps), and ?a?in is a name for the moon where the Indians thought a hare resided. Perhaps it is simply a single word? It's funny that it hasn't received more attention as it is that kind of eternalism that forms one of the extremes against which the Buddha preaches the middle-way. Not at all what we think of as eternalism I think. Thanks for having a go anyway. Jayarava _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jayarava at yahoo.com Sat Mar 28 12:34:46 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] Eternalism In-Reply-To: <1911F1F22C7F4DB6831BCA7CEB8D6750@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <97346.61396.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Joanna Your suggestion strikes me as plausible, but doesn't convince me that this is the history of the word. It reminds me of a Nirukta last resort etymology based on sound similarity. Is there a parallel consonant shift for example? Are there other uses of that stem? BTW ?a?-vat would be a compound. It's a form of bahuvrihi. "Leap possessing". The metaphor does seem to be recurrence, rather than everlasting. Again and again, rather than 'always on'. I might see if I can find a P?li commentarial gloss and see what they link it to. I suppose Sanskrit equivalents must exist but I have no idea where to start. I wonder what the Tibetan is... that often sheds light... any Tibetophiles in the house? Cheers Jayarava From jehms at xs4all.nl Sat Mar 28 13:39:50 2009 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 20:39:50 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Eternalism In-Reply-To: <97346.61396.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <97346.61396.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49CE7D06.9050608@xs4all.nl> Jayarava schreef: > Hi Joanna > > Your suggestion strikes me as plausible, but doesn't convince me that this is the history of the word. It reminds me of a Nirukta last resort etymology based on sound similarity. Is there a parallel consonant shift for example? Are there other uses of that stem? > > BTW ?a?-vat would be a compound. It's a form of bahuvrihi. "Leap possessing". > > The metaphor does seem to be recurrence, rather than everlasting. Again and again, rather than 'always on'. > > I might see if I can find a P?li commentarial gloss and see what they link it to. I suppose Sanskrit equivalents must exist but I have no idea where to start. I wonder what the Tibetan is... that often sheds light... any Tibetophiles in the house? > > Cheers > Jayarava > > > > > Sorry to jump in, I didn't follow the whole thread. Has anyone thought of the root 'shaas' = to instruct, order, rule, command? This also is at the base of shaasanam=teaching. The meaning could come from the idea of unchanging truth, authority or meaning. -- Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From jayarava at yahoo.com Sat Mar 28 15:08:09 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 14:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] ;sa;svat. Was Eternalism Message-ID: <214292.59739.qm@web51411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I'm sending this for Ashok as he is having trouble posting it. From: Ashok Aklujkar Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 12:00:24 -0700 To: Buddhist discussion forum Conversation: ;sa;svat. Was [Buddha-l] Eternalism Subject: Re: ;sa;svat. Was [Buddha-l] Eternalism It seems that there was a verbal nominal derivative ;sa;s (derivable from a verbal root ;sa;s by adding a zero suffix, like recent English "read" from the verbal root "read" in such sentences as "It is a good read") in Vedic Sanskrit. A comparative degree of this Vedic nominal can be said to exist in the Vedic adjective ;sa;siiyas (on the pattern of lagh(u) --> laghiiyas, gur(u) --> gariiyas etc.). Contextually, ;sa;siiyas means 'more numerous, oftener.' The meaning of ;sa;s, therefore could have been 'one which renews itself, one which recurs/reappears,' leading to the meaning 'one which persists, one which is indestructible, eternal.' Mayrhofer (Kurzgefasstes etymologishes Woerterbuch des Altindischen, part 3, p. 317-318), from whom I have paraphrased the preceding information, does not explain how exactly a possessive -vat (cf. his use of ;sa;svaan as the entry title) added to an adjective would work. Perhaps he presupposes that an abstract or event/feature meaning like 'recurrence' underlies the nominal ;sa;s. However, he generally seems to be thinking along the right lines. The further derivations ;saa;svata and ;saa;svatika meaning 'permanent, eternal' from ;sa;svat are linguistically not a problem. ashok aklujkar From jkirk at spro.net Sat Mar 28 15:28:15 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 15:28:15 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] ;sa;svat. Was Eternalism In-Reply-To: <214292.59739.qm@web51411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <214292.59739.qm@web51411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks to Ashok for enlightening us as to what was going on with this word. Cheers, Joanna ==================================== I'm sending this for Ashok as he is having trouble posting it. From: Ashok Aklujkar Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 12:00:24 -0700 To: Buddhist discussion forum Conversation: ;sa;svat. Was [Buddha-l] Eternalism Subject: Re: ;sa;svat. Was [Buddha-l] Eternalism It seems that there was a verbal nominal derivative ;sa;s (derivable from a verbal root ;sa;s by adding a zero suffix, like recent English "read" from the verbal root "read" in such sentences as "It is a good read") in Vedic Sanskrit. A comparative degree of this Vedic nominal can be said to exist in the Vedic adjective ;sa;siiyas (on the pattern of lagh(u) --> laghiiyas, gur(u) --> gariiyas etc.). Contextually, ;sa;siiyas means 'more numerous, oftener.' The meaning of ;sa;s, therefore could have been 'one which renews itself, one which recurs/reappears,' leading to the meaning 'one which persists, one which is indestructible, eternal.' Mayrhofer (Kurzgefasstes etymologishes Woerterbuch des Altindischen, part 3, p. 317-318), from whom I have paraphrased the preceding information, does not explain how exactly a possessive -vat (cf. his use of ;sa;svaan as the entry title) added to an adjective would work. Perhaps he presupposes that an abstract or event/feature meaning like 'recurrence' underlies the nominal ;sa;s. However, he generally seems to be thinking along the right lines. The further derivations ;saa;svata and ;saa;svatika meaning 'permanent, eternal' from ;sa;svat are linguistically not a problem. ashok aklujkar _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From cfynn at gmx.net Sun Mar 29 02:25:40 2009 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 14:25:40 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?gb2312?b?W0Z3ZDogS3lhYmqopiBQZW1hIE5vcmJ1IFJpbnBv?= =?gb2312?b?Y2hlIEVudGVycyBQYXJpbmlydmFuYV0=?= Message-ID: <49CF3084.1090907@gmx.net> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters Parinirvana Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 19:59:15 +0000 From: Palyul Centre UK Dear Dharma Friends, This is to formally announce that the 11th Throneholder of the Palyul Lineage of the Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism, His Holiness Pema Norbu Rinpoche entered the stage of /Thugdam,/ the final stage of meditation, as of 8:20 PM on Friday, March 27, 2009, at the Namdroling Monastery in Bylakuppe, South India. Earlier, at noon, His Holiness received offerings from many of the highest Nyingma Tulkus, Khenpos, and Lamas who had assembled to pay homage to him. Rinpoche left Columbia Asia Hospital at 3:30 PM with the help of the Bhutanese Government who provided an Indian police escort. He reached Palyul Namdroling at 6:40 PM and remained on his bed at the residence. Tulkus, Khenpos and Lamas did aspiration prayers together with His Holiness until 8:20 PM. At that time Rinpoche looked around and then closed his eyes and went into meditation. Prayers continued for 5 minutes and then everyone remained in silence for the next two hours. His Holiness' meditation continues today, and is expected to continue for the next several days. When His Holiness releases his body from meditation, there will be an official acknowledgement of the final passing, allowing everyone to pay their respects according to tradition. Kyabj? Drubwang Pema Norbu Rinpoche was born in 1932 in the Powo region of Kham, Eastern Tibet. His Holiness settled in South India where he built, with his own hands and with the help of a few monks, Namdroling Monastery. The monastery has grown into one of the largest Tibetan Buddhist Dharma centers in the world, housing over 6000 monks and nuns in the complex. His Holiness also built temples and established dharma Centers around the world - in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, Australia, United Kingdom, Greece, Canada and the United States - among others. His Holiness frequently traveled to teach and give empowerments at all of them. Worldwide, His Holiness is universally revered for his loving kindness and compassion, pure upholding of the Vinaya and ceaseless dedication to the welfare of all beings. Wherever he went, has brought and nourished the Buddha-Dharma everywhere he has been. He will live forever in our hearts. Lama Lobsang Chophel, Secretary 28 March, 2009 Sincerely, Palyul Ling International From jayarava at yahoo.com Sun Mar 29 04:22:55 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 03:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BFwd=3A_Kyabj=E9_Pema_Norbu_Rinpoche_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?Enters_Parinirvana=5D?= In-Reply-To: <49CF3084.1090907@gmx.net> Message-ID: <890073.8565.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 29/3/09, Christopher Fynn wrote: > Dear Dharma Friends, > > This is to formally announce that the 11th Throneholder of > the Palyul Lineage of the Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism, His > Holiness Pema Norbu Rinpoche entered the stage of /Thugdam,/ the final > stage of meditation, as of 8:20 PM on Friday, March 27, 2009, at the > Namdroling Monastery in Bylakuppe, South India. etc. Not knowing this person or lineage I read this without much sense of loss and some incredulity. It is a fascinating study in rhetoric isn't it? A masterful press-release. All the long and important sounding titles and the mystical states attained, and the "highest" this and that, and yet so down to earth! Not a human being at all, but a Buddha has passed into Parinirvana (captial P). He was "universally revered" (not unlike Pope John Paul II) except unfortunately by me, because I'd never heard of him. I don't mean to be disrespectful to those who are genuinely grieving over his death, but I find the whole thing a bit of a mystery. Such pomp and circumstance! I note that he's not actually dead, yet, just meditating... Have I got too cynical? Jayarava From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun Mar 29 04:47:55 2009 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:47:55 +0200 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BFwd=3A_Kyabj=E9_Pema_Norbu_Rinpoche_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?Enters_Parinirvana=5D?= In-Reply-To: <890073.8565.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <890073.8565.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49CF51DB.2000600@xs4all.nl> Jayarava schreef: > --- On Sun, 29/3/09, Christopher Fynn wrote: > > >> Dear Dharma Friends, >> >> This is to formally announce that the 11th Throneholder of >> the Palyul Lineage of the Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism, His >> Holiness Pema Norbu Rinpoche entered the stage of /Thugdam,/ the final >> stage of meditation, as of 8:20 PM on Friday, March 27, 2009, at the >> Namdroling Monastery in Bylakuppe, South India. >> > etc. > > Not knowing this person or lineage I read this without much sense of loss and some incredulity. It is a fascinating study in rhetoric isn't it? A masterful press-release. All the long and important sounding titles and the mystical states attained, and the "highest" this and that, and yet so down to earth! Not a human being at all, but a Buddha has passed into Parinirvana (captial P). He was "universally revered" (not unlike Pope John Paul II) except unfortunately by me, because I'd never heard of him. > > I don't mean to be disrespectful to those who are genuinely grieving over his death, but I find the whole thing a bit of a mystery. Such pomp and circumstance! I note that he's not actually dead, yet, just meditating... > > Have I got too cynical? > Jayarava > > > > Not cynical, but to modern. The retoric is a ritual. Normal people die, rinpoches enter into parinirvana. There are different words in Tibetan for bodies of rinpoches and bodies of normal people. But words are not a projection of the world. Different things can be called the same, identical things can be called by different words. The retoric just indicates the perspective from which people with more social capital are no longer a part of this world. In the modern world all things are part of the earthly causal chain, in the medieval world there are many heavens and hells, many discourses and perspectives. -- Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From jayarava at yahoo.com Sun Mar 29 07:38:06 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 06:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BFwd=3A_Kyabj=E9_Pema_Norbu_Rinpoche_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?Enters_Parinirvana=5D?= In-Reply-To: <49CF51DB.2000600@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <512529.59848.qm@web51410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 29/3/09, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > Not cynical, but to modern. The retoric is a ritual. Normal > people die, rinpoches enter into parinirvana. There are different words > in Tibetan for bodies of rinpoches and bodies of normal people. But > words are not a projection of the world. Different things can be called > the same, identical things can be called by different words. The > retoric just indicates the perspective from which people with more > social capital are no longer a part of this world. In the modern world > all things are part of the earthly causal chain, in the medieval world > there are many heavens and hells, many discourses and perspectives. Erik, thanks. This is quite helpful. JR From cfynn at gmx.net Sun Mar 29 10:29:57 2009 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 22:29:57 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?utf-8?q?=5BFwd=3A_Kyabj=C3=A9_Pema_Norbu_Rinpoche_En?= =?utf-8?q?ters_Parinirvana=5D?= In-Reply-To: <890073.8565.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <890073.8565.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49CFA205.8060109@gmx.net> > Have I got too cynical? A bit - Of course the language seems way over the top to a western reader. Tibetan uses a lot of honorific terms which don't translate well into modern English ~ particularly when Tibetans think they need to translate them into the sort of language they are exposed to through satellite TV. Padma Norbu Rinpoche was one of the major contemporary figures in Tibetan Buddhism and on a mundane level was almost single-handedly responsible for re-establishing a strong monastic and educational tradition within the Nyingma school where both these things had virtually died out. Considering that he arrived in India in 1960 with nothing and for several years lived in a tent then a mud hut sharing his eating utensils with another lama, what he managed to achieve is quite an accomplishment. He certainly did not start out with the resources of the Catholic Church. In the early 1980s, when he was still virtually unknown and his monastery was still small, I myself saw him working for days building toilets & fixing plumbing and wiring with his own hands. At that time he would always drive his own car (am old Ambassador) and give a lift to Indian labourers or anyone else he saw walking down the road. Later he managed to visit Tibet several times and ended up sponsoring the re-building over a hundred monasteries & temples there that had earlier been destroyed by the Chinese invasion and cultural revolution. Eventually he was educating feeding, and clothing many thousands of monks and others at his monastery in S. India. As well as establishing and rebuilding monasteries and temples he also built hospitals, schools, old-age homes roads and bridges. Of course none of this could be have been achieved without substantial patronage and he visited Taiwan, Singapore, North America, Europe and other places on several occasions I suspect as much to raise financial support for these projects as to "spread the Dharma". On a few occasions I think he was taken advantage of by people who associated themselves with him to promote themselves - but he did not have the kind of sophisticated western advisers some other Tibetan teachers have had. Today many monks who graduated from the monastic college Padma Norbu established in South India can be found teaching in remote parts of Tibet, Nepal, Sikkim, Bhutan and Arunachal Pradesh. I think his main legacy will be that he was instrumental in reviving and strengthening the Nyingma tradition of Buddhism in these places during a particularly difficult period. Although Padma Norbu Rinpoche only came to Bhutan on a couple of short visits, his death was the lead item on the news here both yesterday and today - his death does matter to people here because Bhutanese monks who graduated from his shedra have subsequently returned to Bhutan and re-invigorated Buddhism here. As for the spiritual stuff ~ you can a traditional account of Padm Norbu Rinpoche's lineage and attainments in the late Nyoshul Khenpo Rinpoche's book "Marvelous Garland of Rare Gems: Biographies of Masters of Awareness in the Dzogchen Lineage". The sitting in meditation at the time of death ~ it is not all that unusual for accomplished Tibetan lamas to remain seated for several days after they stop breathing, their body showing no signs of decay - there are several well documented cases of this. (Remember the temperature in that part of India is already well in the 30's C. and bodies tend to start to smell and decay very quickly in those conditions.) - Chris From jkirk at spro.net Sun Mar 29 10:44:54 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 10:44:54 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] FYI: Windows worm virus warning--this is real--Joanna K. Message-ID: <4972719704494D57ACA4EA3C60FFA1C3@OPTIPLEX> I only got the warning yesterday. Sending it to all lists I'm on. Pass it on please. Worm--Windows users beware: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS08-067.mspx Urgent alert for the W32/Conficker Worm Summary: W32/Conficker is expected to become active on April 1, 2009, affecting any computer currently infected with this known threat. This document will assist you in determining whether or not your computer is infected and what steps to take if it is. Affected Operating Systems: Windows 2000 Windows XP Windows Vista Windows 7 (beta) Description The w32/Conficker worm has numerous variants. All variants have similar traits in the way they exploit known Windows vulnerabilities, but each generation incorporates new information that makes it unique. In October 2008, a new variant was detected. This variant exploits a buffer overflow vulnerability in Windows to run remote code on your computer which disables multiple services used to keep your computer stable and secure. After these services are disabled, the worm can connect to a website and potentially download additional malware to your computer. Microsoft released a patch for this vulnerability on October 23, 2008. If undetected, Conficker will activate on April 1, 2009. Solution Step 1 - Update your virus definition files and install the Microsoft Critical Security Update 1. Right-click the M icon in your taskbar, and select Updates. 2. Click OK. 3. Download and install the Microsoft patch from the link below: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS08-067.mspx IMPORTANT: You must install this patch to protect your computer against threats which exploit this vulnerability. From jkirk at spro.net Sun Mar 29 13:42:37 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 13:42:37 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BFwd=3A_Kyabj=E9_Pema_Norbu_Rinpoche_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?Enters_Parinirvana=5D?= In-Reply-To: <49CFA205.8060109@gmx.net> References: <890073.8565.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <49CFA205.8060109@gmx.net> Message-ID: <008D74D8B723452FB50664573B1C17F1@OPTIPLEX> > Have I got too cynical? A bit - Of course the language seems way over the top to a western reader. Tibetan uses a lot of honorific terms which don't translate well into modern English ~ particularly when Tibetans think they need to translate them into the sort of language they are exposed to through satellite TV....................... - Chris ================= Speculating about the elaborate social rituals, could these codes have been molded by and under elite Chinese (or possible older, Eurasian) influences, developing royal courts of lamas, as it were, modeled after ancient imperial court styles and social rituals? Has anyone written about the history of these? Joanna From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Mar 29 19:13:31 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 20:13:31 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BFwd=3A_Kyabj=E9_Pema_Norbu_Rinpoche_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?Enters_Parinirvana=5D?= References: <890073.8565.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com><49CFA205.8060109@gmx.net> <008D74D8B723452FB50664573B1C17F1@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <000e01c9b0d4$bd89cd90$2101a8c0@Dan> > Speculating about the elaborate social rituals, could these > codes have been molded by and under elite Chinese (or possible > older, Eurasian) influences, ...? Joanna, Actually this reminded me more of Jaina practices than anything Chinese. In recent decades there have been several very accomplished Jaina women who, following a long Jain tradition, die by basically starving to death, i.e., entering meditation and not moving until dead (creating no new karma that would incur further samsaric consequences). Only very few people are given dispensation for this type of demise, i.e., are considered sufficiently spiritually accomplished to engage in this. This is also attended by the same sort of attention and fanfare the Tibetan announcement gave, only by the Jaina community. It is interesting that, at least in the late 20th c, the only Jains considered of sufficiently superior accomplishment to receive dispensation to go out this way have been women. Dan From jkirk at spro.net Sun Mar 29 18:41:44 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:41:44 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BFwd=3A_Kyabj=E9_Pema_Norbu_Rinpoche_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?Enters_Parinirvana=5D?= In-Reply-To: <000e01c9b0d4$bd89cd90$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <890073.8565.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com><49CFA205.8060109@gmx.net><008D74D8B723452FB50664573B1C17F1@OPTIPLEX> <000e01c9b0d4$bd89cd90$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <3FDCB9D58ADE467D9A9AA2FA38CBCC65@OPTIPLEX> > Speculating about the elaborate social rituals, could these codes > have been molded by and under elite Chinese (or possible older, > Eurasian) influences, ...? Joanna, Actually this reminded me more of Jaina practices than anything Chinese. In recent decades there have been several very accomplished Jaina women who, following a long Jain tradition, die by basically starving to death, i.e., entering meditation and not moving until dead (creating no new karma that would incur further samsaric consequences). Only very few people are given dispensation for this type of demise, i.e., are considered sufficiently spiritually accomplished to engage in this. This is also attended by the same sort of attention and fanfare the Tibetan announcement gave, only by the Jaina community. It is interesting that, at least in the late 20th c, the only Jains considered of sufficiently superior accomplishment to receive dispensation to go out this way have been women. Dan -------- Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was referring to the overall social rituals, hierarchies, elaborate robes, courts, and so forth of Tibetan religious establishments in general, --not to the Rinpoche's demise. (Some Hindu yogis are also known to have chosen this method of dying while in samadhi.) Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Mar 29 20:05:35 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:05:35 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BFwd=3A_Kyabj=E9_Pema_Norbu_Rinpoche_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?Enters_Parinirvana=5D?= References: <890073.8565.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com><49CFA205.8060109@gmx.net><008D74D8B723452FB50664573B1C17F1@OPTIPLEX><000e01c9b0d4$bd89cd90$2101a8c0@Dan> <3FDCB9D58ADE467D9A9AA2FA38CBCC65@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <004401c9b0dc$040b1a60$2101a8c0@Dan> > Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was referring to the > overall social rituals, hierarchies, elaborate robes, courts, and > so forth of Tibetan religious establishments in general, --not to > the Rinpoche's demise. > Joanna In that case, take a look at Johan Elverskog's _Our Great Qing: The Mongols, Buddhism and the State in Late Imperial China_ (U Hawaii, 2006). He does a nice job of showing how, from the late Ming through the Qing (ca. 16th-20th centuries), the Chines court, playing on affinities between Manchus and Mongolians, on the one hand, and Tibet and Mongols on the other, forged cakravartin myths, making Mongolia part of "our great Qing" via Tibetan mediation. The Emperor of China gets viewed as the great Cakravartin (Wheel-turning Ruler), to whom the Mongols, Tibetans, Manchurians, etc., are followers and fellow exponents of the Buddhist way. It is cosmological sovereignty united by a shared Buddhist myth (usurping Genghis and Kublai Khan as well by making them prototypical Mongolian Buddhists, the original Cakravartins who have passed their mantle to the Chinese (Manchurian) Emperor, inventing increasingly elaborate and inaccurate "conversion" stories of the Mongols to Buddhism, etc., placing them not only under Tibetan aegis, but specifically Gelugpa, which also meant Chinese sovereignty). The Mongolians themselves take over these myths and construct identities from them, using Tibeto-Indic sources to "find" themselves as Buddhists centuries earlier than they were, and constructing similar identities out of Chinese materials. The social, political, ritual, etc. hierarchies are all forged by these (Gelugpa arises during the Ming dynasty and reaches full ascendancy with the advent of the Qing). Dan From jkirk at spro.net Sun Mar 29 19:28:03 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:28:03 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BFwd=3A_Kyabj=E9_Pema_Norbu_Rinpoche_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?Enters_Parinirvana=5D?= In-Reply-To: <004401c9b0dc$040b1a60$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <890073.8565.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com><49CFA205.8060109@gmx.net><008D74D8B723452FB50664573B1C17F1@OPTIPLEX><000e01c9b0d4$bd89cd90$2101a8c0@Dan><3FDCB9D58ADE467D9A9AA2FA38CBCC65@OPTIPLEX> <004401c9b0dc$040b1a60$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: Sounds like a book to read-------thanks for the cit. Joanna ======== In that case, take a look at Johan Elverskog's _Our Great Qing: The Mongols, Buddhism and the State in Late Imperial China_ (U Hawaii, 2006). He does a nice job of showing how, from the late Ming through the Qing (ca. 16th-20th centuries), the Chines court, playing on affinities between Manchus and Mongolians, on the one hand, and Tibet and Mongols on the other, forged cakravartin myths, making Mongolia part of "our great Qing" via Tibetan mediation. The Emperor of China gets viewed as the great Cakravartin (Wheel-turning Ruler), to whom the Mongols, Tibetans, Manchurians, etc., are followers and fellow exponents of the Buddhist way. It is cosmological sovereignty united by a shared Buddhist myth (usurping Genghis and Kublai Khan as well by making them prototypical Mongolian Buddhists, the original Cakravartins who have passed their mantle to the Chinese (Manchurian) Emperor, inventing increasingly elaborate and inaccurate "conversion" stories of the Mongols to Buddhism, etc., placing them not only under Tibetan aegis, but specifically Gelugpa, which also meant Chinese sovereignty). The Mongolians themselves take over these myths and construct identities from them, using Tibeto-Indic sources to "find" themselves as Buddhists centuries earlier than they were, and constructing similar identities out of Chinese materials. The social, political, ritual, etc. hierarchies are all forged by these (Gelugpa arises during the Ming dynasty and reaches full ascendancy with the advent of the Qing). Dan _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From roblev at sonic.net Sun Mar 29 14:52:30 2009 From: roblev at sonic.net (Robert Leverant) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 13:52:30 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters> Parinirvana] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a profound and important subject that Jayarava has opened up. His response is from the soul view; the human view. The formal announcements and the ceremonies represent the spirit view -- realized in the stage of Thugdam by H.H. Pema Norbu Rinpoche; which is a goal for Vajrayana practioners of Tibetan Buddhism. In the Western World, the split between soul and spirit was formalized in 869 A.D. In Constantinople at the Council of the Principals of the Holy Catholic Church & earlier in Nicea in 787. In an overview: in these meetings there was a separation made between the two through which images were deemed acceptable to the Church Fathers. Surprisingly, in Tibetan Buddhism there is the same separation/distinction made between Spirit (Peaks) & Soul (Vales). "Soul is at home in the deep, shaded valleys. ... Spirit is land of high, white peaks, and glittering jewel like lakes and flowers. ...But the creative soul craves spirit. Out of the jungles of the lamaserary, the most beautiful monks one day bid farewell to their comrades and go to make the solitary journey toward the peaks, to mate with the cosmos . ..." (H. H. the Dalai Lama in a letter to Peter Goullart... Quoted in an essay by James Hillman Peaks & Values, Puer Papers, Spring Publications, 1979. For those of you who are interested in this very important subject of being human & soulful vs. divine/realized and the split between the two inside each of us and the collective, read this reflective and scholarly essay by Hillman presented to a conference on Eastern & Western psychologies in 1979. This conflict is epitomized and enacted in the journey of Kennard Lipman, who, after thirty years of devotion to the practice of Tibetan Buddhism, found his spiritual home in the religion of his ancestors. Lipman was an accomplished Dzogchen practioner and translator and commentator of texts including one by Longchenpa. Having scaled the peaks (spirit), he found himself not fed, and returned to the vales (soul) and became a Rabbi. http://www.reformjudaismmag.net/03summer/buddhist.shtml From richard.nance at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 11:52:08 2009 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:52:08 -0400 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters> Parinirvana] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Robert Leverant cited the following: > "Soul is at home in the deep, shaded valleys. ... Spirit is land of high, > white peaks, and glittering jewel like lakes and flowers. ?...But the > creative soul craves spirit. Out of the jungles of the lamaserary, the most > beautiful monks one day bid farewell to their comrades and go to make the > solitary journey toward the peaks, to mate with the cosmos . ..." (H. H. the > Dalai Lama in a letter to Peter Goullart... Quoted in an essay by James > Hillman Peaks & Values, Puer Papers, Spring Publications, 1979. For what it's worth, the passage above is drawn in its entirety from Pierre Delattre's _Tales of a Dalai Lama_ (though Hillman doesn't bother to note the source). The text as a whole is a work of Delattre's imagination; the 14th Dalai Lama wrote none of the above. Best wishes, R. Nance Indiana From jkirk at spro.net Mon Mar 30 14:55:54 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:55:54 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters> Parinirvana] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37A2F950E8AA4BD6BB2568AAA48041B2@OPTIPLEX> This conflict is epitomized and enacted in the journey of Kennard Lipman, who, after thirty years of devotion to the practice of Tibetan Buddhism, found his spiritual home in the religion of his ancestors. Lipman was an accomplished Dzogchen practioner and translator and commentator of texts including one by Longchenpa. Having scaled the peaks (spirit), he found himself not fed, and returned to the vales (soul) and became a Rabbi. http://www.reformjudaismmag.net/03summer/buddhist.shtml =================== My guess would be a bit different as to his return--he simply went home, as imbibed by him from parents and community. As one grows older, one tends in that direction. I don't see this as a "spiritual" event, but then what IS a spiritual event? Time this notion was disposed of, especially its opposition to "physical". In old age one tends to breathe [from Latin spiritus, literally, breath, from spirare to blow, breathe] better at home. Joanna From roblev at sonic.net Mon Mar 30 16:26:33 2009 From: roblev at sonic.net (Robert Leverant) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:26:33 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 49, Issue 39 Re: Richard Nance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richard, Until now, I took Hillman's scholarship as impeccable. After reading your comment, I went back and noticed what you pointed out: that Hillman didn't footnote the source of this letter. Perhaps, he knew that Goullart was B.S. and yet had the audacity to quote the letter because it validated his metaphor and thesis. When I first read the letter, it didn't resonate because in all my 45 years of doing spiritual practice, much of it in Buddhism, I'd never seen such writing on soul and such rich metaphors and images; worthy of Western poetry. This didn't seem congruent with my experience and knowledge base, but I went to sleep and ignored my rumblings in the bones, because it was attributed to H.H. Dalai Lama, who in my eyes is impeccable. So thank you for holding this mirror for me to see my blind spots and glossing over my disbelief that something was wrong; that this language and metaphors didn't feel right. That said, I still think the metaphor Peaks (Spirit) and Vales (Soul) is a good one and important for those drawn to the "spiritual" path to reflect on; to be aware of and what they are sacrificing in terms of being human. Kennard Lipman's story is about this. A realized being is both Peak and Vale. I've had the good fortune to be close to a couple of such beings with titles like H.E. They were the real deal; never leaving the host position of equinimity and compassion and love and wisdom and emptiness no matter what came their way. Evidently, Kyabj? Drubwang Pema Norbu Rinpoche was in this mold. Realized. Thanks again. Robert > Send buddha-l mailing list submissions to > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > buddha-l-owner at mailman.swcp.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of buddha-l digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters Parinirvana] (jkirk) > 2. Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters Parinirvana] > (Dan Lusthaus) > 3. Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters Parinirvana] (jkirk) > 4. Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters Parinirvana] > (Dan Lusthaus) > 5. Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters Parinirvana] (jkirk) > 6. Subject: Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters> > Parinirvana] (Robert Leverant) > 7. Re: Subject: Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters> > Parinirvana] (Richard Nance) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 13:42:37 -0600 > From: "jkirk" > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters > Parinirvana] > To: "'Buddhist discussion forum'" > Message-ID: <008D74D8B723452FB50664573B1C17F1 at OPTIPLEX> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >> Have I got too cynical? > > A bit - Of course the language seems way over the top to a > western reader. Tibetan uses a lot of honorific terms which don't > translate well into modern English ~ particularly when Tibetans > think they need to translate them into the sort of language they > are exposed to through satellite TV....................... > - Chris > ================= > > Speculating about the elaborate social rituals, could these > codes have been molded by and under elite Chinese (or possible > older, Eurasian) influences, developing royal courts of lamas, as > it were, modeled after ancient imperial court styles and social > rituals? > Has anyone written about the history of these? > > Joanna > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 20:13:31 -0500 > From: "Dan Lusthaus" > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters > Parinirvana] > To: "Buddhist discussion forum" > Message-ID: <000e01c9b0d4$bd89cd90$2101a8c0 at Dan> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >> Speculating about the elaborate social rituals, could these >> codes have been molded by and under elite Chinese (or possible >> older, Eurasian) influences, ...? > > Joanna, > Actually this reminded me more of Jaina practices than anything Chinese. In > recent decades there have been several very accomplished Jaina women who, > following a long Jain tradition, die by basically starving to death, i.e., > entering meditation and not moving until dead (creating no new karma that > would incur further samsaric consequences). Only very few people are given > dispensation for this type of demise, i.e., are considered sufficiently > spiritually accomplished to engage in this. This is also attended by the > same sort of attention and fanfare the Tibetan announcement gave, only by > the Jaina community. It is interesting that, at least in the late 20th c, > the only Jains considered of sufficiently superior accomplishment to receive > dispensation to go out this way have been women. > > Dan > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:41:44 -0600 > From: "jkirk" > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters > Parinirvana] > To: "'Buddhist discussion forum'" > Message-ID: <3FDCB9D58ADE467D9A9AA2FA38CBCC65 at OPTIPLEX> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > >> Speculating about the elaborate social rituals, could these > codes >> have been molded by and under elite Chinese (or possible older, > >> Eurasian) influences, ...? > > Joanna, > Actually this reminded me more of Jaina practices than anything > Chinese. In recent decades there have been several very > accomplished Jaina women who, following a long Jain tradition, > die by basically starving to death, i.e., entering meditation and > not moving until dead (creating no new karma that would incur > further samsaric consequences). Only very few people are given > dispensation for this type of demise, i.e., are considered > sufficiently spiritually accomplished to engage in this. This is > also attended by the same sort of attention and fanfare the > Tibetan announcement gave, only by the Jaina community. It is > interesting that, at least in the late 20th c, the only Jains > considered of sufficiently superior accomplishment to receive > dispensation to go out this way have been women. > > Dan > -------- > Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was referring to the > overall social rituals, hierarchies, elaborate robes, courts, and > so forth of Tibetan religious establishments in general, --not to > the Rinpoche's demise. > (Some Hindu yogis are also known to have chosen this method of > dying while in samadhi.) > Joanna > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:05:35 -0500 > From: "Dan Lusthaus" > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters > Parinirvana] > To: "Buddhist discussion forum" > Message-ID: <004401c9b0dc$040b1a60$2101a8c0 at Dan> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >> Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was referring to the >> overall social rituals, hierarchies, elaborate robes, courts, and >> so forth of Tibetan religious establishments in general, --not to >> the Rinpoche's demise. >> Joanna > > > In that case, take a look at Johan Elverskog's _Our Great Qing: The Mongols, > Buddhism and the State in Late Imperial China_ (U Hawaii, 2006). He does a > nice job of showing how, from the late Ming through the Qing (ca. 16th-20th > centuries), the Chines court, playing on affinities between Manchus and > Mongolians, on the one hand, and Tibet and Mongols on the other, forged > cakravartin myths, making Mongolia part of "our great Qing" via Tibetan > mediation. The Emperor of China gets viewed as the great Cakravartin > (Wheel-turning Ruler), to whom the Mongols, Tibetans, Manchurians, etc., are > followers and fellow exponents of the Buddhist way. It is cosmological > sovereignty united by a shared Buddhist myth (usurping Genghis and Kublai > Khan as well by making them prototypical Mongolian Buddhists, the original > Cakravartins who have passed their mantle to the Chinese (Manchurian) > Emperor, inventing increasingly elaborate and inaccurate "conversion" > stories of the Mongols to Buddhism, etc., placing them not only under > Tibetan aegis, but specifically Gelugpa, which also meant Chinese > sovereignty). The Mongolians themselves take over these myths and construct > identities from them, using Tibeto-Indic sources to "find" themselves as > Buddhists centuries earlier than they were, and constructing similar > identities out of Chinese materials. The social, political, ritual, etc. > hierarchies are all forged by these (Gelugpa arises during the Ming dynasty > and reaches full ascendancy with the advent of the Qing). > > Dan > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:28:03 -0600 > From: "jkirk" > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters > Parinirvana] > To: "'Buddhist discussion forum'" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > Sounds like a book to read-------thanks for the cit. > Joanna > ======== > > In that case, take a look at Johan Elverskog's _Our Great Qing: > The Mongols, Buddhism and the State in Late Imperial China_ (U > Hawaii, 2006). He does a nice job of showing how, from the late > Ming through the Qing (ca. 16th-20th centuries), the Chines > court, playing on affinities between Manchus and Mongolians, on > the one hand, and Tibet and Mongols on the other, forged > cakravartin myths, making Mongolia part of "our great Qing" via > Tibetan mediation. The Emperor of China gets viewed as the great > Cakravartin (Wheel-turning Ruler), to whom the Mongols, Tibetans, > Manchurians, etc., are followers and fellow exponents of the > Buddhist way. It is cosmological sovereignty united by a shared > Buddhist myth (usurping Genghis and Kublai Khan as well by making > them prototypical Mongolian Buddhists, the original Cakravartins > who have passed their mantle to the Chinese (Manchurian) Emperor, > inventing increasingly elaborate and inaccurate "conversion" > stories of the Mongols to Buddhism, etc., placing them not only > under Tibetan aegis, but specifically Gelugpa, which also meant > Chinese sovereignty). The Mongolians themselves take over these > myths and construct identities from them, using Tibeto-Indic > sources to "find" themselves as Buddhists centuries earlier than > they were, and constructing similar identities out of Chinese > materials. The social, political, ritual, etc. > hierarchies are all forged by these (Gelugpa arises during the > Ming dynasty and reaches full ascendancy with the advent of the > Qing). > > Dan > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 13:52:30 -0700 > From: Robert Leverant > Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche > Enters> Parinirvana] > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > This is a profound and important subject that Jayarava has opened up. His > response is from the soul view; the human view. The formal announcements > and the ceremonies represent the spirit view -- realized in the stage of > Thugdam by H.H. Pema Norbu Rinpoche; which is a goal for Vajrayana > practioners of Tibetan Buddhism. > > In the Western World, the split between soul and spirit was formalized in > 869 A.D. In Constantinople at the Council of the Principals of the Holy > Catholic Church & earlier in Nicea in 787. > > In an overview: in these meetings there was a separation made between the > two through which images were deemed acceptable to the Church Fathers. > > Surprisingly, in Tibetan Buddhism there is the same separation/distinction > made between Spirit (Peaks) & Soul (Vales). > > "Soul is at home in the deep, shaded valleys. ... Spirit is land of high, > white peaks, and glittering jewel like lakes and flowers. ...But the > creative soul craves spirit. Out of the jungles of the lamaserary, the most > beautiful monks one day bid farewell to their comrades and go to make the > solitary journey toward the peaks, to mate with the cosmos . ..." (H. H. the > Dalai Lama in a letter to Peter Goullart... Quoted in an essay by James > Hillman Peaks & Values, Puer Papers, Spring Publications, 1979. > > For those of you who are interested in this very important subject of being > human & soulful vs. divine/realized and the split between the two inside > each of us and the collective, read this reflective and scholarly essay by > Hillman presented to a conference on Eastern & Western psychologies in 1979. > > This conflict is epitomized and enacted in the journey of Kennard Lipman, > who, after thirty years of devotion to the practice of Tibetan Buddhism, > found his spiritual home in the religion of his ancestors. Lipman was an > accomplished Dzogchen practioner and translator and commentator of texts > including one by Longchenpa. Having scaled the peaks (spirit), he found > himself not fed, and returned to the vales (soul) and became a Rabbi. > http://www.reformjudaismmag.net/03summer/buddhist.shtml > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:52:08 -0400 > From: Richard Nance > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Subject: Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche > Enters> Parinirvana] > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Robert Leverant cited the following: > >> "Soul is at home in the deep, shaded valleys. ... Spirit is land of high, >> white peaks, and glittering jewel like lakes and flowers. ?...But the >> creative soul craves spirit. Out of the jungles of the lamaserary, the most >> beautiful monks one day bid farewell to their comrades and go to make the >> solitary journey toward the peaks, to mate with the cosmos . ..." (H. H. the >> Dalai Lama in a letter to Peter Goullart... Quoted in an essay by James >> Hillman Peaks & Values, Puer Papers, Spring Publications, 1979. > > For what it's worth, the passage above is drawn in its entirety from > Pierre Delattre's _Tales of a Dalai Lama_ (though Hillman doesn't > bother to note the source). The text as a whole is a work of > Delattre's imagination; the 14th Dalai Lama wrote none of the above. > > Best wishes, > > R. Nance > Indiana > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > End of buddha-l Digest, Vol 49, Issue 39 > **************************************** > From alex at chagchen.org Mon Mar 30 16:49:21 2009 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:49:21 +1100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu Rinpoche Enters> Parinirvana] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003001c9b189$dcf5c520$96e14f60$@org> We can be happy that Lipman obviously achieved his avowed goal - to become a leader! If you have to de-convert to get enough recognition to satisfy you, then so be it. Everyone at Square One always loves a de-converter. What was that about prodigal sons? As to the "soul" and "spirit" references, you'd have to provide a *lot* of explanation before I could understand the sense in which you mean these words, but I couldn't promise to find the time to read it. All the best Alex Wilding Blog: http://dangzang.blogspot.com/ From jkirk at spro.net Mon Mar 30 17:15:39 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:15:39 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Subject: Re: [Fwd: Kyabj? Pema Norbu RinpocheEnters> Parinirvana] In-Reply-To: <003001c9b189$dcf5c520$96e14f60$@org> References: <003001c9b189$dcf5c520$96e14f60$@org> Message-ID: <3A2CAAF9FBCA4FB7A89B17B551C1B07D@OPTIPLEX> We can be happy that Lipman obviously achieved his avowed goal - to become a leader! If you have to de-convert to get enough recognition to satisfy you, then so be it. Everyone at Square One always loves a de-converter. What was that about prodigal sons? As to the "soul" and "spirit" references, you'd have to provide a *lot* of explanation before I could understand the sense in which you mean these words, but I couldn't promise to find the time to read it. All the best Alex Wilding Blog: http://dangzang.blogspot.com/ ============================== _ From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Mar 30 21:49:10 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:49:10 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist Philosophy: Essential Readings Message-ID: <1238471350.13500.16.camel@localhost> Oxford University Press has recently released a new anthology of writings on Buddhist philosophy, edited by William Edelglass and Jay L. Garfield. The anthology is entitled Buddhist Philosophy: Essential Readings. Thirty-eight readings selected from Sanskrit, Pali, Tibetan, Chinese, Japanese and English texts are distributed over five parts of the book. Part I covers metaphysics and ontology; Part II, philosophy of language and hermeneutics; Part III, epistemology; Part IV, philosophy of mind and the person; and Part V, ethics. (Readings originally in languages other than English are translated into English.) Contributors to the volume are Dan Arnold, James Blumenthal, Jos? Ignacio Cabez?n, Bret W. Davis, James Duerlinger, Malcolm David Eckel, William Edelglass, Alan Fox, Jay L. Garfield, Brendan S. Gillon, Charles Goodman, Peter N. Gregory, Peter Harvey, Richard Hayes, Steven Heine, C.W. Huntington Jr, Hans-Rudolf Kantor, Matthew T. Kapstein, Gereon Kopf, Leonard W.J. van der Kuijp, Dan Lusthaus, Michel Mohr, Jin Y. Park, Graham Parkes, Noa Ronkin, Gareth Sparham, Karma Lekshe Tsomo and Brook Ziporyn. The book is available in hardcover or paperback. The ISBNs are: 978-0-19-532817-2 (pbk) and 978-0-19-532816-5 (cloth) The Library of Congress call number is B162.B847 2009 -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Mar 30 22:09:39 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:09:39 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Eternalism Message-ID: <1238472579.14165.5.camel@localhost> Jayarava asks: > A colleague has asked me about the meaning of sassatadi??hi > (sassatadi.t.thi) which PED equates sassata to Vedic ?a?vat > ('sa'svat). The meaning "eternalism", with an emphasis on recurrance, > seems clear enough, but I have been unable to identify the verbal > root. There is ?a? "leap" but can this be it? Can anyone help with > this? Not everything is derived from a dh?tu. There is no indication in Apte's dictionary that the Vedic ?a?vat is believed to be derived from a root. None of the speculations that you, Joanna and Erik have come up with are grammatically possible. Until you can find a reliable authority to set the record straight, the best bet is to take it as a primitive word rather than as something derived from component parts. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Mar 30 22:18:13 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:18:13 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] FYI: Windows worm virus warning--this is real--Joanna K. Message-ID: <1238473093.14165.10.camel@localhost> On March 29, Joanna Kirkpatrick raised the alarm: > I only got the warning yesterday. Sending it to all lists I'm > on. Pass it on please. > > Worm--Windows users beware: > http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS08-067.mspx > > Urgent alert for the W32/Conficker Worm Aren't you glad you switched to Ubuntu Linux several months ago? You DID switch to Ubuntu Linux, didn't you? -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Mar 30 22:26:22 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:26:22 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Eternalism Message-ID: <1238473582.14165.17.camel@localhost> Some bozo wrote: > Until you can find a reliable authority to set > the record straight, the best bet is to take it as a primitive word > rather than as something derived from component parts. That's what I get for setting buddha-l to nomail and then trying to catch up on discussions without reading every message that has been posted for the past two months. I see that Ashok supplied a traditional explanation of the nirukti of Vedic ?a?vat. Like many a traditional explanation, this one sounds a bit fishy to me, but nothing I have found sounds any less fishy. Anyone for chowder? -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From jkirk at spro.net Mon Mar 30 22:34:26 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:34:26 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: ;sa;svat. Was Eternalism Message-ID: <700A4496A0EC44928B4B452D69CFE19F@OPTIPLEX> Ok Richard, but what about Ashok's contribution to 'sa'svat? (see below) Do you also disagree with this one? equally impossible for the same reason? Thanks, Joanna -------------------------- Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 3:08 PM From: Ashok Aklujkar Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 12:00:24 -0700 To: Buddhist discussion forum Conversation: ;sa;svat. Was [Buddha-l] Eternalism Subject: Re: ;sa;svat. Was [Buddha-l] Eternalism It seems that there was a verbal nominal derivative ;sa;s (derivable from a verbal root ;sa;s by adding a zero suffix, like recent English "read" from the verbal root "read" in such sentences as "It is a good read") in Vedic Sanskrit. A comparative degree of this Vedic nominal can be said to exist in the Vedic adjective ;sa;siiyas (on the pattern of lagh(u) --> laghiiyas, gur(u) --> gariiyas etc.). Contextually, ;sa;siiyas means 'more numerous, oftener.' The meaning of ;sa;s, therefore could have been 'one which renews itself, one which recurs/reappears,' leading to the meaning 'one which persists, one which is indestructible, eternal.' Mayrhofer (Kurzgefasstes etymologishes Woerterbuch des Altindischen, part 3, p. 317-318), from whom I have paraphrased the preceding information, does not explain how exactly a possessive -vat (cf. his use of ;sa;svaan as the entry title) added to an adjective would work. Perhaps he presupposes that an abstract or event/feature meaning like 'recurrence' underlies the nominal ;sa;s. However, he generally seems to be thinking along the right lines. The further derivations ;saa;svata and ;saa;svatika meaning 'permanent, eternal' from ;sa;svat are linguistically not a problem. ashok aklujkar _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Mar 30 23:05:31 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Dayamati) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:05:31 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Former denizens keeping the faith Message-ID: <1238475931.14165.52.camel@localhost> Dear denizens, Some of you long-time veterans of buddha-l and its evil twin, the buddhism list, may recall when a fellow named Namdrol and another earnest seeker named Kevin Solway were trying to set us straight on what Buddhism really is (and, more importantly, what Buddhism decidedly is NOT). They both eventually got tired of us, because Jim Peavler was rude to them. Or maybe I was rude to them. I forget the details. I think it was Jim who was rude though. A couple of months ago I read (but managed to stay out of) a discussion on the Unitarian-Universalist Buddhist Fellowship list about E-Sangha, which is a Yahoo group. The claim has been made that E-Sangha gets more hits than any Buddhist discussion group on the Internet. Whether that is true or not, E-Sangha certainly does its best to warn newcomers to Buddhism about the many false teachers out there who are spreading lies about the Dharma. I couldn't resist exploring E-Sangha for about forty-five seconds. One of the first things I learned was that our old friend Namdrol is (or has been) a regular contributor and a moderator of E-Sangha. (I think Jim used to call Namdrol Numbskull. Somebody did. I forget who. Probably Jim.) There is a blog site on Wordpress.com dedicated to revealing all the intolerant attitudes that routinely get expressed on E-Sangha. Our old friend Kevin Solway contributes to that one. He and Namdrol never did see eye to eye. Each seems to have seen the other as the anti-Buddha. (I seem to recall that Peavler was rude to Solway, too. I may, however, be getting Peavler mixed up with me again.) It's nice to know a couple of refugees from buddha-l have made good. Let's all raise a glass of amrita to Namdrol and Kevin Solway and wish them salud. (And, say, whatever happened to that kindly old retired Brazilian judge named something like Patanga who used to try to tie everyone up into Madhyamaka knots until someone around here was rude to him?) For those of you who have way too much time on your hands, a few more details about the efforts of the folks on E-Sangha to keep Buddhism safe from those reprobates who are prone to the horrible vice of critical thinking can be found on a squib on by blog site. If you are not too timid, go to http://tinyurl.com/cyzpv7 (and, if you're not an Ubuntu Linux user, hope to hell it's not a virus or a worm). Wishing you all a Merry Christmas and to all a good night, I now retreat back into oblivion, obscurity and obfuscation. -- Dh. Dayamati http://dayamati.blogspot.com http://dayamati.wordpress.com From alex at chagchen.org Tue Mar 31 00:00:13 2009 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:00:13 +1100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Former denizens keeping the faith In-Reply-To: <1238475931.14165.52.camel@localhost> References: <1238475931.14165.52.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <000601c9b1c5$f5540e10$dffc2a30$@org> How refreshing! I too have briefly mentioned E-Sangha on my own blog (http://dangzang.blogspot.com/2009/03/aro-ter.html), and plan to do more. Richard, you did not mention that Aro-ter is one of the banned movements. (I *really want* to stress that I'm not actually supporting Aro-ter, just noting the way they have been treated at E-Sangha. Once, when I lived in Ireland, I wrote a letter to the local paper protesting against an idiotic attack on the Masons that had been printed - one of those things about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion etc etc. Lo and behold, within two weeks I was approached about becoming a Mason. People seem to assume that "He who is against the lies that are told against me must be for me"! Hence my caution here.) My next blog about E-sangha will relate how a couple of my own identities have been banned from there without warning and without explanation, in spite of multiple requests for an explanation. The only reasonable guess I can make is because my false identities expressed views critical of Malcolm Smith (Namdrol). In fact he knows *much* more than I do. However, if I may say so, and in my humble opinion, of course, he is walking proof that knowledge is the same as neither wisdom nor scholarship. ????????????????????????????? ????? All the best Alex Wilding (which is my "true" identity, and heaven forfend that I would use a false one here!) Blog: http://dangzang.blogspot.com/ From jayarava at yahoo.com Tue Mar 31 04:15:24 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: ;sa;svat. Was Eternalism In-Reply-To: <700A4496A0EC44928B4B452D69CFE19F@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <76114.51937.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Joanna I think Richard has signed off to go back to his lucrative book contract, but he did comment on Ashok's explanation in an earlier post. Having thought about it a bit more I don't see how ?a??yas can be related to ?a?vat. Though it does suggest an adjective ?a? meaning 'numerous', that is not in the dictionaries. The suffix -?yas is added to adjectival stems to make comparatives. Are you even allowed stems in -?? I think who ever said that we have to just treat it as a word is probably right. Incidentally "eternal" can be traced back to the IE root 'i', which occurs in Sanskrit - 3rd person present indicative: eti. It comes into English via Latin ?vum, and is related to words like age, aeon. The sassata belief seems to arise from seeing many lifetimes or many world ages in meditation. That is, one sees in a vision a large number of recurrences of rebirth/redeath or creation/destruction of the universe (what a vision that must be!), and concludes that they go on repeating forever. Where the Buddha's vision is different is that he sees an escape from the recycling. The version of rebirth in which an ?tman comes back again and again *without end* is a primitive one. It seems to match one of the versions of redeath in the first chapter of the B?had?ranyka Upani?ad. Later of course even the Brahmins accepted the idea of mok?a. Did I mention in my post about Bronkhorst that he thinks that the idea of an ?tman providing the continuity between lives came from the ?jivakas? But he also says that the ?jivakas believed in mok?a - although one could not speed it along, one could only keep the deadline from being extended by refraining from action. So the idea of an endless cycle of rebirth/redeath of an ?tman seems to be unique to the Brahmins of that period - or at least associated with some people, probably Brahmins, who composed an oral tradition, two different versions of which, possibly based on an ur-text but more likely to have emerged out of two oral lineages, have survived from an unknown period which may or may not have preceded the Buddha (if there even was a Buddha). We don't actually know anything, we just make up plausible stories. The wisdom of no escape? Anyway it become clear that the reason sassatadi???i is problematic is that it denies the possibility of ending the cycle of rebirths. Yours in happy pedantry. Jayarava From aklujkar at interchange.ubc.ca Tue Mar 31 07:41:01 2009 From: aklujkar at interchange.ubc.ca (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 06:41:01 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] ; sa; svat, Eternalism, best practical dictionary of Skt Message-ID: On 09/05/24 9:26 PM, "Richard Hayes" wrote: > Ashok > supplied a traditional explanation of the nirukti of Vedic ?a?vat. Like many a > traditional explanation, this one sounds a bit fishy to me, but nothing I have > found sounds any less fishy. From: Jayarava . 31 Mar 2009. > I don't see how ?a??yas can be related to ?a?vat. Though it does suggest an adjective ?a? meaning 'numerous', that is not in the dictionaries. The suffix -?yas is added to adjectival stems to make comparatives. Are you even allowed stems in -?? Just to avoid confusion in the future: The explanation came from Mayrhofer, not from any traditional nirukti/ nirvacana source such as Yaaska's Nirukta. Secondly, in historical linguistics it is permitted to postulate a basic stem. Such a stem may not be attested in the surviving/accessible literature and hence not find a place in the dictionaries. Thirdly, stems in ;s do exist in Skt; e.g. di;s, vi;s (note their identity of form with the verbal roots di;s 'to point to' and vi;s 'to enter'). By the way, most available Skt-Eng dictionaries suffer from outdatedness, poor printing or poor paper (or all of these three). Believe it or not, the language blessed with the best available *practical* dictionary of Skt on all the indicated counts (information, excellent paper, clear print), as far as I know, is Catalan. Do buy a copy of (accents on some letters are omitted in the following): Oscar Pujol Riembau Diccionari Sanscrit-Catala Barcelona: Enciclopedia Catalana 2005 ashok aklujkar From jkirk at spro.net Tue Mar 31 08:57:59 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 08:57:59 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Former denizens keeping the faith In-Reply-To: <1238475931.14165.52.camel@localhost> References: <1238475931.14165.52.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <9D8284907ABB4851922B859FC24529B5@OPTIPLEX> Once I actually posted something about finding another B. list--e-sangha, but having checked it out a few times, realised it's no match for this one by a long (or short) shot. e-sangha now left behind, like in the movie. Joanna ========================= Dear denizens, Some of you long-time veterans of buddha-l and its evil twin, the buddhism list, may recall when a fellow named Namdrol and another earnest seeker named Kevin Solway were trying to set us straight on what Buddhism really is (and, more importantly, what Buddhism decidedly is NOT). They both eventually got tired of us, because Jim Peavler was rude to them. Or maybe I was rude to them. I forget the details. I think it was Jim who was rude though. A couple of months ago I read (but managed to stay out of) a discussion on the Unitarian-Universalist Buddhist Fellowship list about E-Sangha, which is a Yahoo group. The claim has been made that E-Sangha gets more hits than any Buddhist discussion group on the Internet. Whether that is true or not, E-Sangha certainly does its best to warn newcomers to Buddhism about the many false teachers out there who are spreading lies about the Dharma. I couldn't resist exploring E-Sangha for about forty-five seconds. One of the first things I learned was that our old friend Namdrol is (or has been) a regular contributor and a moderator of E-Sangha. (I think Jim used to call Namdrol Numbskull. Somebody did. I forget who. Probably Jim.) There is a blog site on Wordpress.com dedicated to revealing all the intolerant attitudes that routinely get expressed on E-Sangha. Our old friend Kevin Solway contributes to that one. He and Namdrol never did see eye to eye. Each seems to have seen the other as the anti-Buddha. (I seem to recall that Peavler was rude to Solway, too. I may, however, be getting Peavler mixed up with me again.) It's nice to know a couple of refugees from buddha-l have made good. Let's all raise a glass of amrita to Namdrol and Kevin Solway and wish them salud. (And, say, whatever happened to that kindly old retired Brazilian judge named something like Patanga who used to try to tie everyone up into Madhyamaka knots until someone around here was rude to him?) For those of you who have way too much time on your hands, a few more details about the efforts of the folks on E-Sangha to keep Buddhism safe from those reprobates who are prone to the horrible vice of critical thinking can be found on a squib on by blog site. If you are not too timid, go to http://tinyurl.com/cyzpv7 (and, if you're not an Ubuntu Linux user, hope to hell it's not a virus or a worm). Wishing you all a Merry Christmas and to all a good night, I now retreat back into oblivion, obscurity and obfuscation. -- Dh. Dayamati http://dayamati.blogspot.com http://dayamati.wordpress.com _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Tue Mar 31 20:44:39 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:44:39 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] FYI: Windows worm virus warning--this is real--Joanna K. In-Reply-To: <1238473093.14165.10.camel@localhost> References: <1238473093.14165.10.camel@localhost> Message-ID: Not yet. I haven't even learned enough about using Win or Word 20003! Joanna ============= On March 29, Joanna Kirkpatrick raised the alarm: > I only got the warning yesterday. Sending it to all lists I'm on. > Pass it on please. > > Worm--Windows users beware: > http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS08-067.mspx > > Urgent alert for the W32/Conficker Worm Aren't you glad you switched to Ubuntu Linux several months ago? You DID switch to Ubuntu Linux, didn't you? -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Mar 21 12:00:21 2009 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:00:21 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: > Kant even defined art as that which doesn't evoke desire. Kant keeps coming up - I wish I had the brain power to take on reading him. > Hatred for pleasant feelings is as much a problem as the > desire for them. Theoretically. But not practically in our time and place I think. Fear of pain is more relevant. But that is to take the discussion in a totally different direction. Although I suppose as a hick I am suspicious about the things that people claim for poetry. Not that I hate it, just that I find the credulous rhapsodising a bit unlikely. People who talk about the wonders of poetry have always struck me as being in the same league as the UFO abduction people (or Linux users). ;-) I certainly do not experience desire in relationship to the vast bulk of art that I have seen or heard, but somehow I suspect that this is nothing to do with the Kantian definition of art! Best wishes Jayarava From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Mar 21 12:00:21 2009 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:00:21 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Dan Home of Burma's Suu Kyi Imperiled Threat of Lawsuit Added to Charges Over U.S. Visitor By Glenn Kessler Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, May 15, 2009 Burma's Nobel Peace Prize-winning democracy advocate Aung San Suu Kyi will go on trial Monday amid signs that, one way or another, the country's military rulers intend to force her to give up her home. The trial stems from an incident involving a U.S. citizen, identified as John Yettaw, who swam across Rangoon's picturesque Lake Inya last week to reach Suu Kyi's lakefront bungalow and allegedly stayed there one or two nights. On Thursday, she was taken to Rangoon's Insein prison on charges of violating the terms of her detention by hosting a foreigner, which could bring a three- to five-year prison term, according to Burmese opposition officials. The charges came just days before Suu Kyi's six-year term under house arrest is due to expire. A little-known lawsuit filed by Suu Kyi's estranged older brother, a U.S. citizen, poses another threat. In 2001, Aung San Oo demanded ownership of half of the two-story house that had been the property of their mother. A Burmese court suspended the case because foreigners may not own property in Burma, but sources in Rangoon have indicated in recent weeks that the suit may be revived. The courts in Burma are completely under the control of the military junta. Aung Lin Htut, the former deputy chief of mission for the Burmese Embassy in Washington, said in a recent interview that the lawsuit was generated by the Burmese government. The ambassador at the time, U Tin Win, received an order from Rangoon to obtain San Oo's signature on the lawsuit in exchange for promises of business opportunities for his wife, a Burmese national, and her family, Lin Htut said. read the rest at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/14/AR2009051400944.html?hpid=sec-world From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Mar 21 12:00:21 2009 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:00:21 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: This is a study of the socioeconomic perspectives of the leading anticaste intellectuals over a period of five centuries, from the 'early modern' period of the fifteenth to seventeenth centuries to the end of colonial rule. It focuses on the framework of their perspectives, their visions, their 'utopias'. In fact, the first formulation of an Indian version of utopia comes not from elite literature, but from one of the anticaste intellectuals with a mass following. The bhakti radical, Sant Ravidas (c. 1450-1520), was the first to formulate an Indian version of utopia in his song "Begumpura". Begumpura, the 'city without sorrow', is a casteless, classless society; a modern society, one without a mention of temples; an urban society as contrasted with Gandhi's village utopia of Ram Rajya............ Another book worth acquiring. Gail doesn't fool around, and she is also a thorough scholar. She's a leftie, so she might not see Dr. Ambedkar as a solution to anything, but who knows? I must read the book to find out. Joanna From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Mar 21 12:00:21 2009 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:00:21 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: strong in specifics, esp Buddhist specifics. I suppose it is difficult to give gritty details on say Buddhism, when her interest is broader, a kind of global view of religion. But I'm sure I will enjoy attending her talks. Some teachers are better speakers than witers. Bernard Faure's new "Unmasking Buddhism" (2009), comes to mind here. Faure, in his "zen insights and oversights" tack, is interesting and useful reading if we discount his sometimes too summary sweeps of the details. We are in a very exciting cameo in the local history of Buddhism as the moneytheist monastics of Singapore are quietly ganging up against those who, influenced by the noon radiance of the forest monks (mostly Ajahn Chah's pupils), trying to isolate them (includig myself). Are we seing symptoms of chinks and cleavages in a new Buddhist chrysalis? Butterflies, like good dharma, do not live long, but they are beautiful as they fly in the light, and we watch them. It is an exciting moment here, yet a terrifying one, too, when we realize this is not textbook Buddhism or academic Buddhism, but real-life spirituality. I have been reading William Pietz's entry on "Person" in Donald Lopez Jr's "Critical Terms for the study of Buddhsm" (2005), and feel compelled that we need to do more than let the centuries of monastic slavery, oppression and tartuffism politely rest (or grow). In Singapore the money monastics are employing armies of professionally qualified youths. The more thinks one, who value mental health over money, inno time leave, often deeply disillusioned to find the monastic heart not only dark but empty. Don't get me wrong: I only agree with people like Schopen, where they are not too summary in his writing. WIll someone tell him to visit India one day, or better go for a good meditation retreat, so that he could see the other brighter side of Buddhism? I am all for early Buddhism and forest dharma, as I think they are good anthitheses, even cure, for the materialism and mega-churchism of Singapore. (There is a wide range of mediaevally virulent forms of evangelism, here, too. Frankly I fear the SInhalese nayaka my family and I pushing a large TV at Giant, a popular mart here, more!) I am now working on an article on "The Body in Buddhism" which inspired me to reflect on "The Person in Buddhism." I have to work on the former for a good doctrinal ground, but more enjoy writing the latter. Thanks for reading this, and good for you if you feel some deligh about itt. There are less than a handful ears here in this philistine Singapore that I can speak so richly with. Asalha Puja (the fullmoon day commemorating the teaching the First Discourse) was on Tuesday. The monastic rains retreat is now well on its way. With the blessing of the vars.aavaasa, Piya Tan On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Katherine Masis wrote: > > Karen Armstrong is one of my favorite authors! I've read most of her books > and Armstrong says in no uncertain terms that what matters is how you > behave, not what you believe. She reports this idea came up in the course > of a conversation with a rabbi several years ago. One of her projects is > The Charter for Compassion. Watch the 3-minute video at: > > http://charterforcompassion.com/ > > "The Charter does NOT assume: > - all religions are the same > - compassion is the only thing that matters in religion > - religious people have a monopoly on compassion > The Charter DOES affirm that: > - compassion is celebrated in all major religious, spiritual and ethical > traditions > - the Golden Rule is our prime duty and cannot be limited to our own > political, religious or ethnic group > - therefore, in our divided world, compassion can build common ground" > > There are other Karen Armstrong videos. Check out the one with her > 21-minute acceptance speech for the TED prize: > > > http://www.ted.com/talks/karen_armstrong_makes_her_ted_prize_wish_the_charter_for_compassion.html > > Youtube also has some more Armstrong videos. > > Katherine Masis > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 23:49:58 +0800 > From: Weng-Fai Wong > Subject: [Buddha-l] The Case for God > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Message-ID: <4A54C026.9010001 at comp.nus.edu.sg> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Given the recent popularity of Dawkins, Hitchen and Harris, what do > people think of Karen Armstrong's retort "The Case for God"? > > W. F. Wong > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > End of buddha-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 14 > **************************************** > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Mar 21 12:00:21 2009 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:00:21 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: gremi.um N 2 2 NOM S N gremi.um N 2 2 VOC S N gremi.um N 2 2 ACC S N gremium, gremii N N [XXXEO] uncommon firewood; (singular or collective); gremi.um N 2 4 NOM S N gremi.um N 2 4 VOC S N gremi.um N 2 4 ACC S N gremium, gremi(i) N N [XXXBX] lap, bosom; womb, interior; female genital parts; JK ============== -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Michael Paris Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 3:15 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Ordination and Vinaya I got, from http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gremium: gremium Definition from Wiktionary, a free dictionary [edit] Latin [edit] Noun gremium, -ii, n. 1. lap 2. bosom What did you find? I promise not to mention it. Perhaps from The Latin Sexual Vocabulary, in books.google.com? Michael Paris jkirk wrote: > I can't find a translation for the Latin term 'gremium'--tried > online Latin-English dictionary to no avail--what I got was > umentionable, actually. > JK > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Mar 21 12:00:21 2009 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:00:21 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: s play into the doctor's course: any comments? (=BF neuroanatomy ? =97 that's a new one, I need to look up : any pointers= ... ?) Interesting that Seligman's class on happiness is most-popular of all at Harvard continuing studies, I believe; I'm not aware of him relying on any teachings of the Buddha, per se =97 but this Buddhist component of the happiness meme warrants a deeper look, at least by Yrs, warmly, Gary Gach http://word.To may all beings be well From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Mar 21 12:00:21 2009 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:00:21 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: three generations of a Tibetan people living in D'ing-ri on the Tibet-Nepal border. Although it begins with a brief look into their religious history, as recorded in the biographies and teachings of [a] 12th century yogin, the study concentrates on the modern era--the time and society of 1885-1960. Joanna From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Mar 21 12:00:21 2009 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:00:21 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Dan China Opposes US Officials Meeting Dalai Lama By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Published: September 15, 2009 Filed at 6:11 a.m. ET BEIJING (AP) -- China criticized a meeting between aides of President Barack Obama and the Dalai Lama, saying Tuesday it opposed any such engagements with the Tibetan spiritual leader, but stopping short of threatening a response. Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu said Beijing firmly opposed any foreign officials meeting with the Dalai Lama, whom China claims is intent on seizing independence for the Chinese region of Tibet. The Dalai Lama has said he only wants genuine autonomy for Tibetans. Valerie Jarrett, a top adviser to Obama, met Sunday and Monday with the Tibetan spiritual leader in Dharmsala, India, ahead of his planned visit to the United States early next month. Jarrett, who was accompanied by Maria Otero, the U.S. State Department undersecretary for democracy and global affairs, was on a private visit, the U.S. Embassy in New Delhi said. The Dalai Lama has previously said he would like to meet Obama when he visits Washington in October, as he has every president since George H.W. Bush. But on Monday he said he was looking forward to meeting the president after Obama visits China, which will be in November. Asked if Beijing had made any formal representations to Washington regarding the Dalai Lama's wish to meet the American leader, Jiang said only that ''the U.S. side is very clear about China's position.'' ''We oppose Dalai's engagement in separatist activities in any country under whatever capacity and in whatever name and we oppose other countries' officials meeting with Dalai in any form,'' Jiang said at a regular press briefing. China canceled a major summit with the European Union last year because French President Nicolas Sarkozy met the spiritual leader. A White House visit for the Dalai Lama would be seen as a powerful message of support to Tibetans struggling for their rights, but it could put Washington in an awkward position. The United States is seeking Chinese cooperation on several fronts, including global economic recovery efforts and the nuclear standoffs in North Korea and Iran. Its emphasis on economic and diplomatic ties with China has prompted criticism that the Obama administration is reluctant to confront China on sensitive human rights and trade issues. China says Tibet has been part of its territory for four centuries. It has governed the Himalayan region with an iron first since communist troops took control there in 1951. Many Tibetans claim they were effectively independent for most of their history and say Chinese rule and economic exploitation are eroding their traditional Buddhist culture. The Dalai Lama fled to India during a 1959 Tibetan uprising against Chinese rule and travels the world promoting the Tibetan cause. He advocates some form of autonomy that would allow Tibetans to freely practice their culture, language and religion. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Mar 21 12:00:21 2009 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:00:21 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: A simple way if you have Acrobat, define a paper custom paper size that is what you want achieve, set that paper as the current default and "print" your original file to a new pdf "scaled to fit" that paper size. Any decent printer or publisher should be able to do this - in fact it is probably best to leave it to them since they may have to slightly adjust the size to accommodate things like layout on the actual paper size they use, trimming, extra margins required for binding and so on. Just make it very clear to them you want the final print to be about 116% the size of your original PDF and get them to show you a proof at that size before they actually print the book. ========== Homepage (updated 18 September 09): http://jinavamsa.com See also http://jinavamsa.com/mentalhealth.html From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Mar 21 12:00:21 2009 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:00:21 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Kanjur lack many of the ancient Pali texts. Perhaps the specialists might tell us more here. For example, apparently,they do not have the Kesaputtiya (Kalama) Sutta (A 3.65). Piya Tan On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:16 AM, Mitchell Ginsberg wrote: > Hello all, > A friend asked me a question. I gave him my reply but said I'd check with > someone who knew more about the Tibetan Canon. > His question: > Is the entire Pali Canon essentially in the Tibetan Buddhist Canon, just > translated into Sanskrit? > > Would anyone like to give some basic information on this? > (I was also wondering about other texts such as Apabhramsha texts and > whether they were rendered into Tibetan, but that's not in his question per > se. > And are there Sanskrit texts at all in the Tibetan Canon? I thought there > were Tibetan translations of Sanskrit texts, instead.) > Thank you! > Mitchell > ========== > Homepage (updated 18 September 09): http://jinavamsa.com > See also http://jinavamsa.com/mentalhealth.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Mar 21 12:00:21 2009 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:00:21 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: What about Buddha's wife? We all know that Prince Siddhartha left his wife and infant son to begin his journey to enlightenment. The Pali canon does not mention the woman he left behind. Yasodhara enters the commentarial tradition around the first century CE and lives on in the folk tradition, growing from a shadowy figure to a nun and arahat (an Enlightened One), even gaining magical powers. In this book, Ranjini Obeyesekere offers a translation of two works from Sri Lanka on this intriguing figure. The Yasodharavata (The Story of Yasodhara) is a folk poem, whose best-known verses are Yasodhara's lament over the departure of her husband. The Yasodharapadanaya (The Sacred Biography of Yasodhara) is an account of Yasodhara as a nun capable of miracles, who has traveled through sam|sara with the Bodhisattva, and who is praised by him. Obeyesekere places these works within their historical and literary context and provides a glossary of Buddhist terms. "The translations are fluid, appealing, and quite readable. This book illuminates the `shadows' that obscured Yasodhara from the modernist, essentialized telling of the Buddha story, thereby enriching the growing genre of narratives of women in Buddhism." -- Donald K. Swearer, author of The Buddhist World of Southeast Asia "In her beautiful translation, Obeyesekere provides access to a world of Buddhism that has only been available to Sinhala readers. Many people will now be able to read, enjoy, and study these stories as an important aspect of what can be called `devotional Buddhism.'" -- George D. Bond, author of Buddhism at Work: Community Development, Social Empowerment and the Sarvodaya Movement --This text refers to the Hardcover edition. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Mar 21 12:00:21 2009 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:00:21 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: "This work is a tour-de-force in cross-cultural scholarship, both sound and bold, constructing a new and refreshing theory on the rise to prominence of rebirth eschatology in India. Obeyesekere argues convincingly that 'ethicization' of rebirth through the theory of karma was the new ingredient that transformed a commonplace belief into a central philosophical and eschatological principle in most of Indian theologies. This is a book that will engage and challenge anthropologists, classicists, and Indologists alike, as well as non-specialists interested in culture and religion."--Patrick Olivelle, University of Texas at Austin From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Mar 21 12:00:21 2009 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:00:21 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Brahm has been very patient. I suppose we need to break some eggs to make an omelette. But Ajahn Brahm's "reform" here as explicated by Ajahn Sujato, his assistant, are all weel within the canonical Vinaya, and not culturally routinized versions of it. I think for countless nuns and women, this is a wonderful breath of fresh spritual air. I'd like to look on the bright side, the Sangha will reconcile in time. This may depend in Thailand on some other reforms, too, Piya Tan On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 5:05 PM, L.S. Cousins wrote: > We should note that Wat Pah Pong would have had little choice about > this. It is illegal in Thai law to ordain bhikkhunis and the monastery > would otherwise certainly have been shut down. Note also that this is a > matter of secular law, not of the Sangha. > > Lance Cousins > > > Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > > http://www.santifm.org/ > > > > On Sunday 1 November at Wat Pah Pong (the head monastery of the Ajahn > > Chah tradition) Ajahn Brahm and his monastery Bodhinyana were formally > > expelled from Wat Pah Pong for performing bhikkhuni ordination. > > > > W.F. Wong > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Mar 21 12:00:21 2009 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:00:21 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Though traditionally regarded as a peaceful religion, Buddhism has a dark side. On multiple occasions over the past fifteen centuries, Buddhist leaders have sanctioned violence, and even war. The eight essays in this book focus on a variety of Buddhist traditions, from antiquity to the present, and show that Buddhist organizations have used religious images and rhetoric to support military conquest throughout history. Buddhist soldiers in sixth century China were given the illustrious status of Bodhisattva after killing their adversaries. In seventeenth century Tibet, the Fifth Dalai Lama endorsed a Mongol ruler's killing of his rivals. And in modern-day Thailand, Buddhist soldiers carry out their duties undercover, as fully ordained monks armed with guns. Buddhist Warfare demonstrates that the discourse on religion and violence, usually applied to Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, can no longer exclude Buddhist traditions. The book examines Buddhist military action in Tibet, China, Korea, Japan, Mongolia, Sri Lanka, and Thailand, and shows that even the most unlikely and allegedly pacifist religious traditions are susceptible to the violent tendencies of man. REVIEWS "Anyone with idealized notions of Buddhism as a religion fully committed to peace and non-violence will benefit from this fine collection. Outlining how a range of Buddhists have participated in war and justified this apparent violation of their ethical principles, these essays shed new light on sacred violence, just-war discourse, religious nationalism, and religious institutions' collaboration with the state. This is a rich and timely book." ---Christopher Ives, author of Imperial-Way Zen TABLE OF CONTENTS Introduction Michael Jerryson Buddhism and War Paul Demi?ville Making Merit through Warfare According to the Arya-Bodhisattva-gocara-upayavisaya-vikurvana-nirdesa Sutra Stephen Jenkins Sacralized Warfare: The Fifth Dalai Lama and the Discourse of Religious Violence Derek F. Maher Legalized Violence: Punitive Measures of Buddhist Khans in Mongolia Vesna A. Wallace A Buddhological Critique of ?Soldier-Zen? in Wartime Japan Brian Daizen Victoria Buddhists in China during the Korean War (1951?1953) Xue Yu Onward Buddhist Soldiers: Preaching to the Sri Lankan Army Daniel Kent Militarizing Buddhism: Violence in Southern Thailand Michael Jerryson Afterthoughts Bernard Faure Anyone who wishes more information may contact me off list, or visit Amazon.com to view more of the volume: http://www.amazon.com/Buddhist-Warfare-Michael-Jerryson/dp/019539 4844/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259727039&sr=8-1 best, Michael -- Michael Jerryson Assistant Professor of Religious Studies Eckerd College - Letters Collegium 4200 54th Ave. S. St. Petersburg, FL 33711 jerrysm at eckerd.edu -- Michael Jerryson Assistant Professor Eckerd College, Florida jerrysm at eckerd.edu