[Buddha-l] (no subject)

[schnipp schnupp]

Dear Richard, I believe you are quite mistaken when you say: "that lay Buddhists do not turn to anyone, because the violation of vinaya rules is none of their business."
 
First of all, it becomes clear than that bhikkus might consider themselves people above the sangha which I understand as all of those who believe in Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. They rather should be part of it. That's why s.o. of the German panel of ordained already offered lay Buddhists to send their complaints there. If there is a broad agreement on that, I don't know yet.
 
Another problem that is not addressed is that in the Mahayana tradition the Bodhisattva vows function as an equivalent to the Vinaya - they provide a sufficient code for ethical behavior. One of the rules is to protect the Dharma, and that can actually lead to action against offenders of the Dharma - even when they are monks/nuns. The Yogacara Bhumi Shastra e.g. details methods that make room for the violation of silas, if the Dharma has to be protected or someones life is at stake. 
 
I just want to say this because your stance is very much supported by the ordained - but it is just because I am a lay with Bodhisattva vows that my means are much broader according to the sutras. I could easily disrobe an offender, for example - and if he goes to court, bring his behaviour into the open.
 
My question indeed was not what I should do but if there is a panel of the ordained in the US. A member of this mailing list wrote to me because she thought Buddhists in Germany might be supported by the government. They are not. Only the churches are. Many buddhists think we should not apply for the same status (and then probably mistakes) that would be involved with government's acceptance. So the DBO (that panel) is s.th. new here and has to support itself. It will only make sense to me when it is in exchange with the layity. Just think of the simple problem that anyone can shave his head and wear a robe - and most of the times it would not be doubted that he/she is a monk/nun. Or do you think others ask for papers or the like? We actually did with Thich Thien Son from the Vietnamese pagoda in Frankfurt. It turned out that no one had proof that he was ever more than a bhikku. Nevertheless, they gave him a Mahathera ceremony in the head temple. 
 
So, well, it could be quite funny to join or even call in a bhikkhu meeting to exclude s.o. from the sangha - and thirty years later it turns out that no one - not even the excluded - of the present bhikkus were actually a monk ...
 
Guido