From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 03:38:49 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 11:38:49 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga (Vicente Gonzalez) In-Reply-To: <541640.38533.qm@web63306.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <541640.38533.qm@web63306.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1473737091.20090101113849@gmail.com> Mitchell wrote: MG> So, from a Buddhist point of view, how can there be compassion MG> for all of the suffering that this involves, from those we MG> associate ourselves with one way or another to those we have MG> less understanding or emotional connection with???? this is in the core of the matter, I think. Buddhism and other religions preach the practice of compassion like the best recipe to get an universal welfare. In individual situations of course it is the way. And if we can imagine the sum of all individual real purposes to be compassionate, sure we can imagine a national or a world compassion. However, I don't agree with this traditional way to get ethics beyond those individuals engaged in a religious way. I fear no society can be "compassionate" by demanding compassionate actions to their citizens. According the common mind, such purpose is perceived as something unrealistic in front a false - but so real - perceived world. I know somebody who works in the company which maintain the water network of my city. Some weeks ago, one building was in flames killing several people. This was a prime media news in all the country. Well, my friend told me the cause was a leakage in a water pipe. The pipes for gas, water and electricity, all three are mounted together in a only channel below ground. It is a general design, and the whole city is pervaded by this potential dangerous schema. In this case, a minuscule leakage in the water pipe caused a progressive hole in the close gas pipe (a plastic tube quite thin) then a logical gas escape, its accumulation in the first floor of the building and a subsequent explosion. My city has 4 million people, and the total milles of this net is enormous. My friend told me that there is not a logical explanation for the low number of accidents. The net is so extensive and so old in some points, that its maintenance only exists under customer demand. Nobody knows the real state of the net in every point. If we imagine all the cities of this world, with its billion buildings, trillions of pipes, present in developed and undeveloped countries, then one can realize that there is not a logical explanation for the low number of accidents. This image of perfection in this enormous human task is astonishing, wonderful. When some building is burn, collapses or explodes in any part of this planet, it becomes a news in the whole world. In this same moment, we can read in Google Top Stories about a fire in a nightclub in Bangkok. It appears in Google Top Stories of any language!. In this planet there are billions of buildings with electricity, water and gas. There are infinite possibilities of failures but all them mostly are under control, and failures becomes an exception. The ill-will, laziness, neglect... many unwholesome factors appear to have been absent in a magic way in this enormous project. The success of this big task is due to the job of million of individuals in many specialities. All them didn't have an special purpose to be compassionate and to protect citizens. Probably some of them are alcoholics, drunk, criminals. They only apply procedures, controls, and a very simple ethics to make a "good job" putting 5 screws in five holes and not only 3. So the question is why we don't have a similar ethics in the care of this planet and the human being. It doesn't demand any special sainthood or a religious practice of compassion. The basis for this simple care are well known. To me, the only explanation for the permanent failures is the existence of a primitive, old culture of sabotage. We can imagine the results if we try to build these enormous service network while educating and entertaining employees in the fun of sabotaging pipes, the beauty of gas explosions and the thrill in the water escapes. Their simple ethics in maintaining the networks will disappear, and later we cannot ask them to apply compassion in their work, because it will perceived as something idealist, even ridiculous. They never worked to be compassionate but for the simple wish to fulfill what was demanded, right or immediately satisfactory to them. This is in fact the enlightened compassion according sacred literature, because the true compassion is not a wish to perceive oneself making good actions. Compassion is an automatic, spontaneous, even unconscious way to do what can benefit others. Even one can suspect if the immense network of services of this planet has this unexplainable low level of accidents because it was built in that way. best regards, From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 04:08:47 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:08:47 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga In-Reply-To: References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><1228137519.6595.6.camel@localhost><00be01c953c1$3ef384f0$2101a8c0@Dan><200812011023.14866.rhayes@unm.edu><012101c953e6$d636f840$2101a8c0@Dan><20081201161746.5a86d634.rhayes@unm.edu><007701c954a1$ba637d80$2101a8c0@Dan><1059328547.20081231003711@gmail.com><001901c96b25$29690440$2101a8c0@Dan> <123628491.20081231140142@gmail.com> Message-ID: <429891088.20090101120847@gmail.com> Hi Joanna, I agree the paper shows the Jung interest in promoting himself in the nazi regime. I don't think it can be enough to demonize him. About the role of US, rest of developed countries are not very different in 20th century damages. It is just a problem of the historical moment and who is the owner of economics and knowledge. Other countries would made no different things in a similar situation. There are not isolated paradises in this earth neither special human beings in some nation. happy new year, j> I don't have time to write a long essay, but wish to say thanks j> for bringing up the prevailing widely-shared social darwinism, j> racism, & eugenics ideologies of the pre-war and wartime periods j> in Europe and the USA--these were powerful influences at the j> time. As you say, some of it continued right up until rather j> recently, in the US at least, and the machinery of the j> globalization empire is deeply at work in Africa, as you noted j> (also in India, South America and SE Asia), causing the deaths of j> millions for the sake of company profits. From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 04:30:24 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:30:24 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga In-Reply-To: <010001c96b86$418f2660$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><1228137519.6595.6.camel@localhost><00be01c953c1$3ef384f0$2101a8c0@Dan><200812011023.14866.rhayes@unm.edu><012101c953e6$d636f840$2101a8c0@Dan><20081201161746.5a86d634.rhayes@unm.edu><007701c954a1$ba637d80$2101a8c0@Dan><1059328547.20081231003711@gmail.com><001901c96b25$29690440$2101a8c0@Dan><123628491.20081231140142@gmail.com><00a201c96b68$4834cb00$2101a8c0@Dan> <887747729.20081231203044@gmail.com> <010001c96b86$418f2660$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <612004304.20090101123024@gmail.com> Dan wrote: DL> I agree that we agree. Where some disagreement might still remain is that I DL> think (1) the new racialization of old prejudices was more a case of putting DL> old wine in new bottles than of devising something entirely novel, and (2) DL> that one reviews these historical cases to not only see and recognize what DL> was "among them, in them," but to correct such problems in the present for DL> the future. Admitting their faults for what they were, not dissolving them DL> into the collective unconscious of their times. Such correction begins, I DL> believe, in acknowledging them for what they were, not lowering our DL> expectations of what they should have been capable of back then. always is impossible be inside the mind of Jung or any other. His position was, in the worse case, ambiguous. For sure is a good thing preserve the knowledge of the Jung flirtations with that regime but I don't think it can be enough to demonize him, specially if one agree in the defence of the purposes that you writes. From what I know, the practical Jung's legacy today applied by psychoanalysts is not racist or anti-semitic. best regards, From jmf55 at cornell.edu Thu Jan 1 09:00:08 2009 From: jmf55 at cornell.edu (Jessica Marie Falcone) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 11:00:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] the Maitreya Project - once again... Message-ID: <1510.68.45.85.102.1230825608.squirrel@webmail.cornell.edu> Hi everyone, I'm a lurker, so feel free to ignore this post. Suffice to say, I wish you all a happy new year. I've enjoyed reading along throughout 2008! For those who may not remember, I am a PhD student at Cornell finishing up my dissertation about the Maitreya Project. As a practitioner of advocate anthropology, I have tried to help other FPMTers understand that their giant Maitreya statue should not be build at the expense of the livelihoods and farmlands of roughly 2000 Uttar Pradeshi village families. My studied opinion after having spent a few years doing research on the topic is this: the farmers are definitely getting a very raw deal, and there is no excuse for the fact that they are being trampled in the process. I have circulated an e-petition asking the Maitreya Project leadership to shift gears and commit to building their statue of loving-kindness with more responsibility and mindfulness about the side-effects their work is having on the poorest of the poor. I believe that such a commitment would benefit both the Kushinagari farmers AND the Maitreya Project. I am planning to send the printout of the e-petition to the Maitreya Project very soon - at the beginning of Jan 2009. I have 148 signatures, and hoped to have at least 200. It is possible to sign anonymously. I'm afraid that I'm not a very good activist, so I really haven't shared this link as actively as I should. If you would like to do so, feel free to forward it on. If you have any interest in either reading or signing the petition then please do check it out: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/kushinagarsolidarity/index.html May your 2009 be wonderful! Sincerely, Jess Falcone Cornell University From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Jan 1 10:44:29 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:44:29 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga and social mores References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><1228137519.6595.6.camel@localhost><00be01c953c1$3ef384f0$2101a8c0@Dan><200812011023.14866.rhayes@unm.edu><012101c953e6$d636f840$2101a8c0@Dan><20081201161746.5a86d634.rhayes@unm.edu><007701c954a1$ba637d80$2101a8c0@Dan><1059328547.20081231003711@gmail.com><001901c96b25$29690440$2101a8c0@Dan><123628491.20081231140142@gmail.com> <00fa01c96b82$f913e180$2101a8c0@Dan> <495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: <00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan> Bob Zeuschner writes: > I wonder what it is that I accept today, that my great-grandchildren > will shake their heads at, and find it hard to believe that I did not > recognize how morally objectionable such behavior is. > I just don't know. These sorts of ruminations, intriguing and valid as they are on many levels, do not apply in the case of Jung, which is why I consider this "defence" of him (or excusing him, though people seem to want to avoid calling what they are doing what they are actually doing) inappropriate and misleading. You are talking about sensibilities that have changed, in which people in the earlier time period could not have, or would for the most part, not suspect the change in attitude that would arrive later down the pike. I remember, back in my undergrad days, going to a campus screening of Boris Karloff's "The Mummy" (made in 1935, I think). Always loved horror films, and I had long considered this the best of the "mummy" movies, since Karloff does not play a mute idiot staggering around in bandages, but a revived ancient Egyptian whose power is mental and magical, rather than brute strength. The female lead is not only a present day Egyptian woman, but also contains the soul of Karloff's ancient girlfriend, for whose illicit love he had been killed and buried alive back in the old days. This was the pre-Indy Jones days, so the woman plays a helpless, dependent victim, so much so that the newly aroused feminist sensibilities of many audience members loudly boo-ed her (or rather what her character said) several times. Things have changed (Diana Rigg in the 60s, and the surprising and refreshing Karen Allen character in the first Indiana Jones movie who shattered the stereotype -- she now runs a yoga studio). Though strong women were depicted in other films in the 30s, it was considered a perfectly acceptable stereotype for the woman to be the maiden in distress in need of male protection. The 30s film-makers and audience could not be expected to predict the changing sensibilities brought about by a women's movement that was still 30 to 40 years away. In Jung's case, he chose a profession that, at that time, was not only dominated by but was almost exclusively Jewish. He knew Freud and the others. He knew that Freud's office was at 19 Berggasse in Vienna, far removed from the districts where gentile doctors had their offices -- not by choice, but because of antisemitism. He knew, while the Zarathustra Lectures were coming into existence, that the Nazis were persecuting Freud, and the difficulties Freud had finding a way to escape the continent for the safety of Britain. His "disappointment" with Nazis -- which may very well have arisen out personal frustrations with local Nazi friends rather than larger ethical awakenings -- came long after Kristallnacht, an event he was not unaware of. Let's say -- if one buys the self-interest version -- that this was his grab at an oedipal moment, and Freud and the Jews were the father needing killing. When he discovered that his mother, incongruously the Nazi "Fatherland", didn't want to embrace him either, that he was as dispensable as the Freudian father, his attitude began to morph. The point -- even if we accept some version of that story -- is that, contrary to what has been repeated here by several people several times, Jung was not simply swimming in an undifferentiated world of antisemitism where everyone was unthinkingly doing it, oblivious to its consequences or reality on the ground, including the direct impact it was having on his own mentor. Freud had been chastising him for his antisemitism for decades. He knew better, and he should have acted differently. This is not imposing an alien standard from another time or planet, but the measure of his own time. That, in fact, was precisely the point of the Nuremberg Trials. Whoever doesn't understand that must consider the Nuremberg Trials themselves to be unjust. As for the Buddhist angle, yes, Buddhists talk about compassion, concern for the suffering of others, etc. It is always easier to tell someone else who has been wronged to "let it go" than to do so when you yourself are the victim. Even when the wronged number in the millions, over most of two millennia. But this is only part of Buddha's advice. He also instituted an institution in the sangha, to be engaged in by all monastics monthly, involving confession for one's misdeeds, major or minor. Recognition of one's misdeeds, and the promise to desist from such actions in the future is the deep and constant background for the other attitudes and practices. To fail to participate honestly was/is grounds for expulsion from the Sangha. Where is Jung's "confession"? Where his contrition? He is not in the sangha, but perhaps this is grounds for his expulsion from the honorary luminary list. Dan From curt at cola.iges.org Thu Jan 1 11:39:01 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 13:39:01 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga and social mores In-Reply-To: <00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><1228137519.6595.6.camel@localhost><00be01c953c1$3ef384f0$2101a8c0@Dan><200812011023.14866.rhayes@unm.edu><012101c953e6$d636f840$2101a8c0@Dan><20081201161746.5a86d634.rhayes@unm.edu><007701c954a1$ba637d80$2101a8c0@Dan><1059328547.20081231003711@gmail.com><001901c96b25$29690440$2101a8c0@Dan><123628491.20081231140142@gmail.com> <00fa01c96b82$f913e180$2101a8c0@Dan> <495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com> <00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > > His "disappointment" with Nazis -- which may very well have > arisen out personal frustrations with local Nazi friends rather than larger > ethical awakenings -- came long after Kristallnacht, an event he was not > unaware of. Kristallnacht is small potatoes compared to what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza right now. And yet I do not for a minute believe that all those who accept or even approve of the cowardly, murderous and overtly genocidal actions of the IDF are morally bankrupt. They are simply wrong. The Shakers were eager to move onto lands recently cleared of the previous inhabitants by the genocidal actions of the US Army - and the Shakers even fancied that they had a spiritual connections with those very people whose demise they were only to happy to profit from. And so forth. Curt Steinmetz From horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca Thu Jan 1 15:32:09 2009 From: horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca (Gad Horowitz) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 17:32:09 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga and social mores References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><1228137519.6595.6.camel@localhost><00be01c953c1$3ef384f0$2101a8c0@Dan><200812011023.14866.rhayes@unm.edu><012101c953e6$d636f840$2101a8c0@Dan><20081201161746.5a86d634.rhayes@unm.edu><007701c954a1$ba637d80$2101a8c0@Dan><1059328547.20081231003711@gmail.com><001901c96b25$29690440$2101a8c0@Dan><123628491.20081231140142@gmail.com> <00fa01c96b82$f913e180$2101a8c0@Dan> <495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com><00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: What does Kristallnacht have to do with what the Israeli gov't is doing in Gaza? And, another question for Curt and others who derive some satisfaction from comparing Israeli Jews with Nazis, was Kristallnacht a response to Jewish shelling of German cities? And "cowardly, murderous, genocidal, morally bankrupt-"---wow---Curt as final moral authority, absolutely convinced of his secure location at the peak of Wisdom. Jeses Christ! Arafat: Jesus was aPalestinian. The Zionists crucified him. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt Steinmetz" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga and social mores > Dan Lusthaus wrote: >> >> His "disappointment" with Nazis -- which may very well have >> arisen out personal frustrations with local Nazi friends rather than >> larger >> ethical awakenings -- came long after Kristallnacht, an event he was not >> unaware of. > > Kristallnacht is small potatoes compared to what the Israeli government > is doing in Gaza right now. And yet I do not for a minute believe that > all those who accept or even approve of the cowardly, murderous and > overtly genocidal actions of the IDF are morally bankrupt. They are > simply wrong. > > The Shakers were eager to move onto lands recently cleared of the > previous inhabitants by the genocidal actions of the US Army - and the > Shakers even fancied that they had a spiritual connections with those > very people whose demise they were only to happy to profit from. > > And so forth. > > Curt Steinmetz > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Jan 1 15:58:23 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 17:58:23 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga and social mores References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><1228137519.6595.6.camel@localhost><00be01c953c1$3ef384f0$2101a8c0@Dan><200812011023.14866.rhayes@unm.edu><012101c953e6$d636f840$2101a8c0@Dan><20081201161746.5a86d634.rhayes@unm.edu><007701c954a1$ba637d80$2101a8c0@Dan><1059328547.20081231003711@gmail.com><001901c96b25$29690440$2101a8c0@Dan><123628491.20081231140142@gmail.com> <00fa01c96b82$f913e180$2101a8c0@Dan> <495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com><00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <000501c96c64$75741100$2101a8c0@Dan> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt Steinmetz" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga and social mores > Dan Lusthaus wrote: > > > > His "disappointment" with Nazis -- which may very well have > > arisen out personal frustrations with local Nazi friends rather than larger > > ethical awakenings -- came long after Kristallnacht, an event he was not > > unaware of. > > Kristallnacht is small potatoes compared to what the Israeli government > is doing in Gaza right now. And yet I do not for a minute believe that > all those who accept or even approve of the cowardly, murderous and > overtly genocidal actions of the IDF are morally bankrupt. They are > simply wrong. > > The Shakers were eager to move onto lands recently cleared of the > previous inhabitants by the genocidal actions of the US Army - and the > Shakers even fancied that they had a spiritual connections with those > very people whose demise they were only to happy to profit from. > > And so forth. > > Curt Steinmetz > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Jan 1 16:06:29 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:06:29 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga and social mores References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><1228137519.6595.6.camel@localhost><00be01c953c1$3ef384f0$2101a8c0@Dan><200812011023.14866.rhayes@unm.edu><012101c953e6$d636f840$2101a8c0@Dan><20081201161746.5a86d634.rhayes@unm.edu><007701c954a1$ba637d80$2101a8c0@Dan><1059328547.20081231003711@gmail.com><001901c96b25$29690440$2101a8c0@Dan><123628491.20081231140142@gmail.com> <00fa01c96b82$f913e180$2101a8c0@Dan> <495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com><00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan><495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan> Gad, >, was Kristallnacht a response to > Jewish shelling of German cities? In the immoral relativism of the 1930s and the early 21st c., such crucial distinctions only get in the way of the collective unconscious of the age. Curt is just trying to show us that he suffers from the same illness as Jung. It's the times, you know... Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Jan 1 18:12:49 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 20:12:49 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga and social mores References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><1228137519.6595.6.camel@localhost><00be01c953c1$3ef384f0$2101a8c0@Dan><200812011023.14866.rhayes@unm.edu><012101c953e6$d636f840$2101a8c0@Dan><20081201161746.5a86d634.rhayes@unm.edu><007701c954a1$ba637d80$2101a8c0@Dan><1059328547.20081231003711@gmail.com><001901c96b25$29690440$2101a8c0@Dan><123628491.20081231140142@gmail.com> <00fa01c96b82$f913e180$2101a8c0@Dan> <495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com><00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan><495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org> <001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan> To get a better handle on the times in which Jung lived, here's a short extract from an article on Eric Voegelin -- Austrian Christian philosopher known for, among other things, his writings on Hegel. (Those who have access to JSTOR can download the whole essay) Eric Voegelin on Nazi Political Extremism Author(s): Clifford F. Porter Source: Journal of the History of Ideas, Vol. 63, No. 1 (Jan., 2002), pp. 151-171 From dharmafarer at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 18:14:12 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 09:14:12 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] the Maitreya Project - once again... In-Reply-To: <1510.68.45.85.102.1230825608.squirrel@webmail.cornell.edu> References: <1510.68.45.85.102.1230825608.squirrel@webmail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: Dear Jessica, I'm really glad to know of someone, that is, yourself, who is doing some systematic study of how such mega-projects as the Maitreya project are affecting others. Reminds me of how the Dhammakaya are affecting the poor farmers in Thailand. Some years back I was offered the job of the Maitreya project funds coordinator for Singapore. I immediately turned it down. The reason is simple: this is still the time of Shakyamuni, and secondly Maitreya is not yet Buddha. Thank you for your humanitarian concerns, we need more people like you for a more truly compassionate Buddhism. I have cc-ed this email to the Maitreya project Singapore representative. A very happy new year. With metta, Piya Tan On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Jessica Marie Falcone wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I'm a lurker, so feel free to ignore this post. Suffice to say, I wish > you all a happy new year. I've enjoyed reading along throughout 2008! > > For those who may not remember, I am a PhD student at Cornell finishing up > my dissertation about the Maitreya Project. As a practitioner of advocate > anthropology, I have tried to help other FPMTers understand that their > giant Maitreya statue should not be build at the expense of the > livelihoods and farmlands of roughly 2000 Uttar Pradeshi village families. > My studied opinion after having spent a few years doing research on the > topic is this: the farmers are definitely getting a very raw deal, and > there is no excuse for the fact that they are being trampled in the > process. I have circulated an e-petition asking the Maitreya Project > leadership to shift gears and commit to building their statue of > loving-kindness with more responsibility and mindfulness about the > side-effects their work is having on the poorest of the poor. I believe > that such a commitment would benefit both the Kushinagari farmers AND the > Maitreya Project. > > I am planning to send the printout of the e-petition to the Maitreya > Project very soon - at the beginning of Jan 2009. I have 148 signatures, > and hoped to have at least 200. It is possible to sign anonymously. I'm > afraid that I'm not a very good activist, so I really haven't shared this > link as actively as I should. If you would like to do so, feel free to > forward it on. If you have any interest in either reading or signing the > petition then please do check it out: > http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/kushinagarsolidarity/index.html > > May your 2009 be wonderful! > > Sincerely, > > Jess Falcone > Cornell University > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Thu Jan 1 19:09:28 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:09:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga Message-ID: <262907.19495.qm@web54602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Thu Jan 1 19:24:05 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:24:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga Message-ID: <535829.57095.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 1/1/09, Katherine Masis wrote: From: Katherine Masis Subject: Jung and Dignaga To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Date: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 8:09 PM From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 2 03:44:59 2009 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 11:44:59 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga and social mores In-Reply-To: <018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><1228137519.6595.6.camel@localhost><00be01c953c1$3ef384f0$2101a8c0@Dan><200812011023.14866.rhayes@unm.edu><012101c953e6$d636f840$2101a8c0@Dan><20081201161746.5a86d634.rhayes@unm.edu><007701c954a1$ba637d80$2101a8c0@Dan><1059328547.20081231003711@gmail.com><001901c96b25$29690440$2101a8c0@Dan><123628491.20081231140142@gmail.com> <00fa01c96b82$f913e180$2101a8c0@Dan> <495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com><00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan><495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org> <001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan> <018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <495DF02B.3030701@xs4all.nl> Dan Lusthaus schreef: > To get a better handle on the times in which Jung lived, here's a short > extract from an article on Eric Voegelin -- Austrian Christian philosopher > known for, among other things, his writings on Hegel. (Those who have access > to JSTOR can download the whole essay) > > Eric Voegelin on Nazi Political Extremism > Author(s): Clifford F. Porter > Source: Journal of the History of Ideas, Vol. 63, No. 1 (Jan., 2002), pp. > 151-171 > > >From pp. 157-58 > "Voegelin's first attempts to penetrate to the essence of National Socialism > were two books published in 1933 analyzing race theories-Rasse und Staat and > Die Rassenidee in der Geistesgeschichte. He showed that National Socialist > racism denied the fundamental humanity of Jews and other races, and, based > on his own studies with biology, that National Socialist race theory was not > science. Voegelin labeled this abuse of science for ideological purposes > rather than to understand reality as "scientism." The Nazi race idea had in > fact little to do with biology and ethnography. Rather, Voegelin believed > that racism was the symbolic expression of the ordering principle of German > nationalism. The elaborate use of scientific language gave comfort to the > ideologists that they were actually engaged in science seeking positive > truth. Nonetheless, no matter how elaborate the use of language was, it > still denoted little or nothing." > > > Note the date. Maybe Jung was just reading the wrong stuff. Voegelin, by the > way, was deeply interested in the question of mass enthusiasm elicited by > Nazis, and totalitarian regimes in general. He continued to refine his > theories over the years. A small sample (from p. 165) > > 'Voegelin observed that the Nazis were emotionally tribal because > "[t]ribalism is the answer to immaturity because it permits man to remain > immature with the sanction of his group." > > '"But there were consequences for immaturity: good Germans who got > emotionally drunk on the harangues of the savior...and who shrank back in > horror when the program ... was trans- lated into political action." > > Abandoning his earlier conjecture about the nature of "pre-Christian > paganism," Voegelin refined his views, describing Nazi symbolism as a mix of > immanent pagan tribalism within the symbols of Christianity.' > > > I don't think that quoting some Austrian idiot helps us understand anything more about the Nazi movement. Nazism doesn't exist anymore, it has become a myth in the distorted minds of both racists and pro-Israel activists. Furthermore I thank Dan for his excellent demonstration of the mechanisms of the Asura mind, and invite him to return to the human world. You're most welcome Dan! Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Jan 2 04:23:36 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 06:23:36 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga References: <262907.19495.qm@web54602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001d01c96ccc$8e076fb0$2101a8c0@Dan> Katherine, Sounds more like a denial than an apology. In fact, after the war, Jung briefly was contrite toward some Jewish leaders (he's reported to have said to Leo Baeck in 1946 something like: "I messed up, didn't I?"). But already in 1945, in very paranoid and antisemitic terms, he was accusing the "Jewish Freudians in America" and Vienna (though Vienna had been devoid of Jews since 1940) of a global conspiracy to defame him as an antisemite, protesting that "some of my best friends were Jews." As should be clear by now, the Freudian and Jungian camps have been going at it for a long time, to neither of their credits; and that a cottage industry refurbishing Jung's reputation while deferring the onus of "inferiority" back onto Freud and the Freudians has been ongoing for more than half a century. Let me recommend some more balanced, but important sources. One is Andrew Samuels, a British Jungian analyst, who, in the 1990s, took up the question of Jung, antisemitism and the Nazis in as close to an even-handed way as may be possible. #1. Andrew Samuels. "National Psychology, National Socialism, and Analytic Psychology: Reflections of Jung and anti-semitism, Part II," Journal of Analytical Psychology; Jan1992, Vol. 37 Issue 1, 3-28 #2. Andrew Samuels. "National Psychology, National Socialism, and Analytic Psychology: Reflections of Jung and anti-semitism, Part II," Journal of Analytical Psychology 1992, 37, 127-148 [see excerpts below] #3. Andrew Samuels, "New Material Concerning Jung, Anti-semitism, and the Nazis." Journal of Analytical Psychology 1993, 38, 463-470 [Discusses Jung's associations with Mathias G?ring and Wilhelm Hauer, and a letter to Mary Mellon, who went on to found the Bollingen Foundation, written by Jung on Sept. 24, 1945, just at the end of the war, which speaks for itself.] #4. Georgia Lepper's review (in Journal of Analytical Psychology; Jul92, Vol. 37 Issue 3, p363-364, 2p) of: Samuels, A. (London). 'Jung and anti-Semitism'. Continuum, I, i, 1990, pp. 45-52. [Excerpt] In this article, Andrew Samuels traces Jung's anti-Semitism conceptually rather than historically, and provides us with some shocking evidence of the degree to which Jung's dealings with the Nazis were shadowed by his own nationalist sentiments and convictions, which he psychologized in his theories of national characteristics: for example, he claimed 'the Aryan unconscious has a higher potential than the Jewish' (quoted in the article). Refusing to be drawn into a debate which either justifies or castigates Jung's activities, Samuels rather develops his theme: Nazi dogma was not simply a vehicle for racism, but a political theory of history which was rooted in the intense growth of nationalism, particularly in Germany. Jung's nationalistic tendency, along with his 'pan-psychism', led him to believe in a kind of innate national psychology, which was not in itself inherently racist. Linking the logic of nationalism as expressed in these terms, Samuels's analysis is that for Jung, the nationalist, the nationless Jews were psychologically threatening similarly to the way they were experienced as a threat to German nationalism, as expressed by Hitler through the Nazi doctrine. Hence, Jung's 'Jewish psychology' referred not only to the 'typical'Jew, but also to the psychology developed by Jews, such as Freud and Adler, which claimed universality and denied psychological differences, including national differences. Such a psychology had levelling tendencies which could be imposed upon all other ethnic and national psychologies. Also see: #5. Langwieler, G. "The reality of the shadow - Critical reflections on Jung's attitude during the time of German national socialism (Nazism) and toward analytical psychology," Analytische Psychologie, 1998 vol:29 iss:4 pg:272 -295 (From #1) WAS JUNG ANTI-SEMITIC? I have chosen to locate my own analysis on the inter-group level,which is where the drama about Jung has been played out, a drama involving Christians as well as Jews, Freudians, Jungians, and Nazis. This does not in itself constitute a magic solution to the difficulties inherent in our themes. But it does go some way to rectifying a serious problem with what has been written about Jung to date. We have history (e.g. Jaffe 1971; Cocks 1985). We have attack (e.g. Stem 1976; Haymond 1982).We have defence (e.g. Harms 1946; Kirsch 1982). We have at least half a dozen biographies of Jung. We have the acrimonious correspondence that appeared in the New York Times in 1988. We have pleas for an imaginal approach (Giegerich 1979). [...] There is simply very little critical work on the relationship of what is problematic in Jung's writings to the general cultural problems of Nazism and anti-semitism. So, rather than attempt a new analysis of Jung the man (for which, not having met him, I feel I have not the slightest evidential basis), I sought a new use of what I had read. In this paper, I ask whether there is something in the fundamental structure of Jung's thinking about the Jews, in its heart or essence, that made anti-semitism inevitable. When Jung writes about the Jews and Jewish psychology, is there something in his whole attitude that brings him into the same frame as the Nazis, even if he were shown not to have been an active Nazi collaborator? Is there something to worry about? My brief answer, in distinction to that of many well-known Jungians, is 'yes' and, as I said, my hope is that by exploring the matter as deeply as I can a kind of reparation will ensue. Then there will be the base from which to explore the full potential of what Jung was trying to do in his psychological texts on culture in the 1930s. (from #2) The paper is a critical study of the intellectual relations of analytical psychology and national socialism. I try to show that it was Jung's attempt to establish a psychology of nations that brought him into the same frame as Nazi anti-semitic ideology. In addition, Jung was absorbed by the question of leadership, also a pressing issue during the 1930s. Exploring these ideas as thoroughly as possible leads to a kind of reparation, for I think that post-Jungians do have reparation to make. Then it is possible to revalue Jung's overall project in more positive terms. By coupling a less simplistic methodology and a more sensitive set of values to Jung's basic intuitions about the importance of a psychology of cultural difference, analytical psychology has something to offer a depth psychology that is concerned with processes of political and social transformation. --- As this is indeed straying far from Buddhist topics, I suggest this thread now be closed. If anyone cares to discuss this further offline, fine. Dan Lusthaus From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Jan 2 04:29:23 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 06:29:23 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga and social mores References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><1228137519.6595.6.camel@localhost><00be01c953c1$3ef384f0$2101a8c0@Dan><200812011023.14866.rhayes@unm.edu><012101c953e6$d636f840$2101a8c0@Dan><20081201161746.5a86d634.rhayes@unm.edu><007701c954a1$ba637d80$2101a8c0@Dan><1059328547.20081231003711@gmail.com><001901c96b25$29690440$2101a8c0@Dan><123628491.20081231140142@gmail.com> <00fa01c96b82$f913e180$2101a8c0@Dan> <495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com><00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan><495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org> <001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan><018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan> <495DF02B.3030701@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <002301c96ccd$5cddb920$2101a8c0@Dan> > I don't think that quoting some Austrian idiot Idiocy is in the mind of the beholder, Erik. I imagine that demonstrates your practice of Right Speech. Perhaps it wouldn't hurt you to read some of Voeglin's writings and discover why he was an influential thinker of the period (and why, after the Anschluss, he had to flee Austria for the States. The Germans didn't consider him an idiot, but a dangerous thinker.) >Nazism doesn't exist anymore, it has become a myth in the distorted minds of both racists and pro-Israel activists. > Furthermore I thank Dan for his excellent demonstration of the mechanisms of the Asura mind, and invite him to return to the human world. The only Asura (or worse) here is looking at you from your mirror, Eric. Dan (from the real world) From dharmafarer at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 06:49:22 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 21:49:22 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga and social mores In-Reply-To: <002301c96ccd$5cddb920$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost> <495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com> <00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org> <001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan> <018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan> <495DF02B.3030701@xs4all.nl> <002301c96ccd$5cddb920$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: Erik and Dan are two of the most open minds I know on this website whom I respect. Maybe on different sides of openness, but still part of the whole. I think we should write stuff here that we would enjoy reading say 10 years from now. Happy new year, all, Piya Tan On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > > I don't think that quoting some Austrian idiot > > Idiocy is in the mind of the beholder, Erik. I imagine that demonstrates > your practice of Right Speech. Perhaps it wouldn't hurt you to read some of > Voeglin's writings and discover why he was an influential thinker of the > period (and why, after the Anschluss, he had to flee Austria for the > States. > The Germans didn't consider him an idiot, but a dangerous thinker.) > > >Nazism doesn't exist anymore, it has become a myth in the distorted minds > of both racists and pro-Israel activists. > Furthermore I thank Dan for his > excellent demonstration of the mechanisms of the Asura mind, and invite him > to return to the human world. > > The only Asura (or worse) here is looking at you from your mirror, Eric. > > Dan (from the real world) > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Jan 2 07:12:10 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 09:12:10 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga and social mores References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com> <00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan><495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org><001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan><018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan> <495DF02B.3030701@xs4all.nl><002301c96ccd$5cddb920$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <006d01c96ce4$1ab40b00$2101a8c0@Dan> > Happy new year, all, > > Piya Tan And New Year's greetings to you too, Piya. Dan From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 2 08:46:46 2009 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 16:46:46 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga and social mores In-Reply-To: References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost> <495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com> <00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org> <001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan> <018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan> <495DF02B.3030701@xs4all.nl> <002301c96ccd$5cddb920$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <495E36E6.1060700@xs4all.nl> Piya Tan schreef: > Erik and Dan are two of the most open minds I know on this website whom I > respect. Maybe on different sides of openness, but still part of the whole. > > I think we should write stuff here that we would enjoy reading say 10 years > from now. > > Happy new year, all, > > Piya Tan > > Happy new year Piya and since you asked it so nicely I'll have a go. I always found that one of the most impressive principles of Buddhism is to see the axis of evil in your own mind and not elsewhere. Now this Voeglin guy says that Nazism is the symbol of German nationalism. A symbol is a sign, something that means something, but only for someone, as C.S. Pierce noted. For whom is this symbol a symbol, for mr. Voeglin, for Dan, for the Germans in 1930? And how does he know this. If this Voeglin is a Hegelian, he believes in the Absolute Spirit of universal history, and that you can understand it by dialectical speculation and this makes him an idiot in my eyes. Human suffering is in general not brought about by evil persons or evil spirits, not even by the absolute one, but by sheer stupidity. Hannah Arendt called this banality. Robert Mugabe is not an evil person, he's just a stupid old man. That some people suffer so much is not because of a lack of compassion of other people. A fugitive doens't give a toss whether you or I can identify with his situation or not, he or she just wants food, water and safety. This is the tragic truth of samsara. There is very little we can do. Some people think they can and lo and behold, these three hundred or so mainly small aid organisations travel from disaster area to disaster area and make things worse. Africans call it the white flood, because everywhere this aid caravan arrives many new white buildings come: casinos, energyplants, nightclubs, saunas, offices, and so on. The fourteen year old girl that gets treatment in the hospital in the daytime, dances in the nightclub at night for the same doctor and gets another treatment in his bed. The rebels and robbers just get more cruel, because it's the only way the can draw attention to themselves and force the white flood to head their way. You see, I'd love to tell Dan that Jung is the axis of evil, but somehow this seems rather outdated to me and moreover it are just words and there's so much more going on in the world than just words. Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From bshmr at aol.com Fri Jan 2 10:15:56 2009 From: bshmr at aol.com (R B Basham) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 11:15:56 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga and social mores Message-ID: <1230916556.5209.29.camel@aims110> Denizens, or not, This poor ignorant kid (without boots) in the country is less ignorant now: http://padmakumara.org/oldtbsn/teach/asura.htm [ Quote ] ... The third stage of mind is Asura mind . A jealous and bellicose mind. Many cultivators could not progress beyond this stage, as they always want to claim to be strong. Whatever others say must be wrong to them , and what they say must be right. Whatever they do are righteous, and whatever others do must be evil. Unfortunately many religious bodies are in this category. Many religions seek to discriminate against those who hold different views. They maintain that they are right and others are wrong. They are the strongest, others are no match to them. This is a manifestation of Asura mind. The third stage of mind is also known as "the mind of a fearless, unwise child." Although this group of people have courage and are fearless, the way they go about is incorrect. Its a pity that those who are fearless end up having Asura minds. ?[ /Quote ] I entertained other explanations, which were non-buddhist, such as diversion from the news exposing criminal acts of 'a stern (insane) father' which triggered gross displacement and mania. The consideration of mania led to consideration of BCF and BCV which correspond in large part to 'asura mind'. Appears to be another gap in my learning, not in my awareness, as I know 'it' when I see it. The contrapositive would be worse -- iffn that is the appropriate 'educated' term ... . >From a small, dirt poor parcel too close to a river and too far from a tower, Richard Basham From brburl at charter.net Fri Jan 2 11:05:51 2009 From: brburl at charter.net (Bruce Burrill) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 12:05:51 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] New forum In-Reply-To: <1230916556.5209.29.camel@aims110> References: <1230916556.5209.29.camel@aims110> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090102120444.03449230@charter.net> For the discussion of Theravada: http://dhammawheel.com/ From franz at mind2mind.net Fri Jan 2 12:12:47 2009 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:12:47 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Anti-semitism and Self-reflection In-Reply-To: <00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><1228137519.6595.6.camel@localhost><00be01c953c1$3ef384f0$2101a8c0@Dan><200812011023.14866.rhayes@unm.edu><012101c953e6$d636f840$2101a8c0@Dan><20081201161746.5a86d634.rhayes@unm.edu><007701c954a1$ba637d80$2101a8c0@Dan><1059328547.20081231003711@gmail.com><001901c96b25$29690440$2101a8c0@Dan><123628491.20081231140142@gmail.com> <00fa01c96b82$f913e180$2101a8c0@Dan> <495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com> <00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: Gang, Dan wrote, > Where is Jung's "confession"? Where his contrition? He is not in the > sangha, but perhaps this is grounds for his expulsion from the > honorary luminary list. I found this suggestion quite provocative. Not so much applying it to Jung himself (who I consider to have had plenty of other faults that already expel him from my personal list of luminaries), but to ourselves. If we want to remain on our own lists of luminaries, or if we aspire to places there, we need to confess our own anti-semitism. Shocking? I hope not. Well, okay, I do, but just a little. Just enough to jog us into considering the lingering presence in ourselves of a kind of passive anti-semitism. I imagine that on buddha-l the presence of active anti-semitism is nil, but there is a pernicious kind of passive anti-semitism that still exists in the form of denial. This passive denial of our propensity to demonize the Other is, of course not confined to demonizing Jews; we do it all the time and on many levels. But there's something crystalizing (perhaps I should spell it "Kristalizing") about anti-semitism that turns on the defensiveness and denial in otherwise pretty self-reflective people. I think we see this in the Jung debate, but it goes on all the time. For example, in the contemporary Buddhist context we see this lack of reflection in our denial of the misdeeds of Buddhist leaders. And, when confronted with this, we see it in the denial of our own denial and ad hominem attack on those confronting us. I am not speaking merely as a distanced scholar here; I lived through this at Zen Center of Los Angeles. The work we do to perpetuate this blindness needs to be compensated by work on removing it. I do not think we can ever fully remove it, merely see through it. This marks me as a Mahayanist of the basest sort, I suppose (either that or a Unitarian Universalist, but that goes without saying). But I think this issue is fundamental: if we are not perfectible (or if perfection is precisely imperfection, and imperfection perfections), then we had damn well better be contrite. Yours in imperfection, Franz Metcalf From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Jan 2 12:20:29 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 14:20:29 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Voegelin and Nansen's cat References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost> <495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com><00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org> <001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan> <018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan><495DF02B.3030701@xs4all.nl> <002301c96ccd$5cddb920$2101a8c0@Dan> <495E36E6.1060700@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <002e01c96d0f$3c0b7290$2101a8c0@Dan> Eric, > If this Voeglin is a Hegelian, he believes in ... Impressive that you think you know what Voegelin believes without having heard of him or read a word of what he's written. Or for that matter, carefully looking at the blurb with which I introduced him. I said one of the things he is known for is his writings on Hegel. He was not a Hegelian. He was a political philosopher, with deep interests in history, religion and spirituality (Christian primarily), and an important theoretician on the nature of totalitarian states. Google around, or visit your library and look at his dozens of books to see what he did write about. You can start here: http://tinyurl.com/6wu9nc You don't have to end up agreeing with him on everything or anything in order to think of him as something other than an Austrian idiot. Having witnessed the rise of the Third Reich personally, predicting already in 1933 with some degree of accuracy what it would lead to, and forced to flee his native Austria when it reached there, never to see his family again, gives his opinion some weight and authenticity. But he is only one of many possible examples one could point to in order to show that Jung's direction was anything but inevitable. He seemed germane since he early on identified the false scientism that Vincent brought out. >I always found that one of the most impressive principles of Buddhism is to see the axis of evil in your own mind and not elsewhere. Do you think Nansen's cat would agree that his situation is only in your mind? Dan From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 22:45:56 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 06:45:56 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Voegelin and Nansen's cat In-Reply-To: <002e01c96d0f$3c0b7290$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost> <495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com><00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org> <001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan> <018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan><495DF02B.3030701@xs4all.nl> <002301c96ccd$5cddb920$2101a8c0@Dan> <495E36E6.1060700@xs4all.nl> <002e01c96d0f$3c0b7290$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <796264960.20090103064556@gmail.com> Dan wrote: DL> But he is only one of many possible examples one could point to in order to DL> show that Jung's direction was anything but inevitable. He seemed germane DL> since he early on identified the false scientism that Vincent brought out. well, no really. Truly I never imagined that the rescue of this thread can awake all these passions. I wonder if the USA psychotherapy is an equivalent of European soccer, and in that case, the European decadence is complete. I hope some relax in the discussion. Jung is dead and his actual legacy in psychotherapy is not provoking any anti-semitism. There are other interesting swiss contributions to this world like chocolate, cheese and the impertinent cuckoo clocks. best regards, From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 2 22:59:28 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 22:59:28 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Voegelin and Nansen's cat In-Reply-To: <796264960.20090103064556@gmail.com> References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com><00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan><495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org><001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan><018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan><495DF02B.3030701@xs4all.nl><002301c96ccd$5cddb920$2101a8c0@Dan><495E36E6.1060700@xs4all.nl> <002e01c96d0f$3c0b7290$2101a8c0@Dan> <796264960.20090103064556@gmail.com> Message-ID: <93AB2EB1FF424FC5A0D6A94BAA41F925@OPTIPLEX> Bravo, Vicente!! Juana K. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Vicente Gonzalez Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 10:46 PM Dan wrote: DL> But he is only one of many possible examples one could point to in DL> order to show that Jung's direction was anything but inevitable. He DL> seemed germane since he early on identified the false scientism that Vincent brought out. well, no really. Truly I never imagined that the rescue of this thread can awake all these passions. I wonder if the USA psychotherapy is an equivalent of European soccer, and in that case, the European decadence is complete. I hope some relax in the discussion. Jung is dead and his actual legacy in psychotherapy is not provoking any anti-semitism. There are other interesting swiss contributions to this world like chocolate, cheese and the impertinent cuckoo clocks. best regards, _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jehms at xs4all.nl Sat Jan 3 05:13:38 2009 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 13:13:38 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Voegelin and Nansen's cat In-Reply-To: <002e01c96d0f$3c0b7290$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost> <495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com><00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org> <001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan> <018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan><495DF02B.3030701@xs4all.nl> <002301c96ccd$5cddb920$2101a8c0@Dan> <495E36E6.1060700@xs4all.nl> <002e01c96d0f$3c0b7290$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <495F5672.5010009@xs4all.nl> Dan Lusthaus schreef: > Eric, > > >> If this Voeglin is a Hegelian, he believes in ... >> > > Impressive that you think you know what Voegelin believes without having > heard of him or read a word of what he's written. Or for that matter, > carefully looking at the blurb with which I introduced him. I said one of > the things he is known for is his writings on Hegel. He was not a Hegelian. > He was a political philosopher, with deep interests in history, religion and > spirituality (Christian primarily), and an important theoretician on the > nature of totalitarian states. Google around, or visit your library and look > at his dozens of books to see what he did write about. You can start here: > http://tinyurl.com/6wu9nc > Thanks Dan, you jogged my memory. I have read about him and I recall now his emphasis on the symbols and the meaning history, so I was not far off the mark. What really turned me off was hsi concept of absolute evil in politics and an expression as 'the spirituality of evil'. To me he belongs to the sort of people who see the image of the devil in the smoke of the burning Twin Towers and suspect 9/11 was the punishment of God or a conspiracy of the FBI. > You don't have to end up agreeing with him on everything or anything in > order to think of him as something other than an Austrian idiot. Having > witnessed the rise of the Third Reich personally, predicting already in 1933 > with some degree of accuracy what it would lead to, and forced to flee his > native Austria when it reached there, never to see his family again, gives > his opinion some weight and authenticity. > He was certainly not the only one. In many countries in Europe there were streetrumors of this kind as well. >> I always found that one of the most impressive principles of Buddhism is >> > to see the axis of evil in your own mind and not elsewhere. > > Do you think Nansen's cat would agree that his situation is only in your > mind? > How about Schroedingers cat? And yep, life is all in and about your mind. Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Jan 3 05:44:25 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 07:44:25 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Voegelin and Nansen's cat References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost> <495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com><00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org> <001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan> <018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan><495DF02B.3030701@xs4all.nl> <002301c96ccd$5cddb920$2101a8c0@Dan> <495E36E6.1060700@xs4all.nl><002e01c96d0f$3c0b7290$2101a8c0@Dan> <495F5672.5010009@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <004a01c96da1$02bef100$2101a8c0@Dan> Eric, >What really turned me off was hsi concept of absolute evil > in politics and an expression as 'the spirituality of evil'. To me he > belongs to the sort of people who see the image of the devil in the > smoke of the burning Twin Towers and suspect 9/11 was the punishment of > God or a conspiracy of the FBI. Perhaps jogging your mind a bit more, or reading him afresh might help modify your penchant to pigeonhole Voegelin in the wrong slots. If you keep in mind that in German the word for spirit and mind is the same, then what you are criticizing in him are precisely the things in which he is closest to you. That, by the way, is exactly what Freud called projection. > > Do you think Nansen's cat would agree that his situation is only in your > > mind? > > > How about Schroedingers cat? And yep, life is all in and about your mind. Nansen's cat suggests thirty blows from a headless cat body. Seems everyone is happy. The vasanas have been defended from scrutiny, and tucked away in their dark hiding places to come out and cause "unexpected" mischief some other day. Well done! Dan From curt at cola.iges.org Sat Jan 3 10:01:35 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 12:01:35 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Voegelin and Nansen's cat In-Reply-To: <93AB2EB1FF424FC5A0D6A94BAA41F925@OPTIPLEX> References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com><00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan><495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org><001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan><018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan><495DF02B.3030701@xs4all.nl><002301c96ccd$5cddb920$2101a8c0@Dan><495E36E6.1060700@xs4all.nl> <002e01c96d0f$3c0b7290$2101a8c0@Dan> <796264960.20090103064556@gmail.com> <93AB2EB1FF424FC5A0D6A94BAA41F925@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <495F99EF.9070804@cola.iges.org> jkirk wrote: > > Truly I never imagined that the rescue of this > thread can awake all these passions. I wonder if the USA > psychotherapy is an equivalent of European soccer, and in that > case, the European decadence is complete. > The problem is that Nazism is part of the collective karma of the western psyche, and some choose to attempt to exorcise this part of our shadow through the ancient practice of "scapegoating". Instead of facing up to just how un-anomalous Nazism is in the history of "the west" over the last 1500 years, an attempt is made to single out individuals and/or "movements" and to brand them as "pro-Nazi" aberrations, while neatly and conveniently exonerating the rest of us. Whatever gets your through the (long dark) night (of the soul), I guess. Curt Steinmetz From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 3 10:30:25 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 10:30:25 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Voegelin and Nansen's cat In-Reply-To: <495F99EF.9070804@cola.iges.org> References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com><00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan><495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org><001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan><018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan><495DF02B.3030701@xs4all.nl><002301c96ccd$5cddb920$2101a8c0@Dan><495E36E6.1060700@xs4all.nl> <002e01c96d0f$3c0b7290$2101a8c0@Dan> <796264960.20090103064556@gmail.com><93AB2EB1FF424FC5A0D6A94BAA41F925@OPTIPLEX> <495F99EF.9070804@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <687566F9614540B2B81A544BB7BC44B5@OPTIPLEX> Curt says: jkirk wrote: > > Truly I never imagined that the rescue of this thread can awake all > these passions. I wonder if the USA psychotherapy is an equivalent of > European soccer, and in that case, the European decadence is complete. I didn't write that--it was part of a message from Vicente. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Curt Steinmetz Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 10:02 AM jkirk wrote: > > Truly I never imagined that the rescue of this thread can awake all > these passions. I wonder if the USA psychotherapy is an equivalent of > European soccer, and in that case, the European decadence is complete. > The problem is that Nazism is part of the collective karma of the western psyche, and some choose to attempt to exorcise this part of our shadow through the ancient practice of "scapegoating". Instead of facing up to just how un-anomalous Nazism is in the history of "the west" over the last 1500 years, an attempt is made to single out individuals and/or "movements" and to brand them as "pro-Nazi" aberrations, while neatly and conveniently exonerating the rest of us. Whatever gets your through the (long dark) night (of the soul), I guess. Curt Steinmetz _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From curt at cola.iges.org Sat Jan 3 10:57:59 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 12:57:59 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Voegelin and Nansen's cat In-Reply-To: <687566F9614540B2B81A544BB7BC44B5@OPTIPLEX> References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com><00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan><495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org><001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan><018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan><495DF02B.3030701@xs4all.nl><002301c96ccd$5cddb920$2101a8c0@Dan><495E36E6.1060700@xs4all.nl> <002e01c96d0f$3c0b7290$2101a8c0@Dan> <796264960.20090103064556@gmail.com><93AB2EB1FF424FC5A0D6A94BAA41F925@OPTIPLEX> <495F99EF.9070804@cola.iges.org> <687566F9614540B2B81A544BB7BC44B5@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <495FA727.6050707@cola.iges.org> I apologize for my sloppiness - I was quoting from Vincente's post, but I mistakenly used a post in which Joanna was quoting from the same post by Vincente - rather than the original one! Curt jkirk wrote: > Curt says: > jkirk wrote: > >> >> Truly I never imagined that the rescue of this thread can awake >> > all > >> these passions. I wonder if the USA psychotherapy is an >> > equivalent of > >> European soccer, and in that case, the European decadence is >> > complete. > > I didn't write that--it was part of a message from Vicente. > Joanna > > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com > [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Curt > Steinmetz > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 10:02 AM > > > jkirk wrote: > >> >> Truly I never imagined that the rescue of this thread can awake >> > all > >> these passions. I wonder if the USA psychotherapy is an >> > equivalent of > >> European soccer, and in that case, the European decadence is >> > complete. > >> >> > > The problem is that Nazism is part of the collective karma of the > western psyche, and some choose to attempt to exorcise this part > of our shadow through the ancient practice of "scapegoating". > Instead of facing up to just how un-anomalous Nazism is in the > history of "the west" over the last 1500 years, an attempt is > made to single out individuals and/or "movements" and to brand > them as "pro-Nazi" aberrations, while neatly and conveniently > exonerating the rest of us. > > Whatever gets your through the (long dark) night (of the soul), I > guess. > > Curt Steinmetz > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Jan 3 11:14:43 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 13:14:43 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Voegelin and Nansen's cat References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com><00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan><495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org><001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan><018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan><495DF02B.3030701@xs4all.nl><002301c96ccd$5cddb920$2101a8c0@Dan><495E36E6.1060700@xs4all.nl> <002e01c96d0f$3c0b7290$2101a8c0@Dan> <796264960.20090103064556@gmail.com><93AB2EB1FF424FC5A0D6A94BAA41F925@OPTIPLEX> <495F99EF.9070804@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <002b01c96dcf$27367cf0$2101a8c0@Dan> Curt wrote: >Instead of facing > up to just how un-anomalous Nazism is in the history of "the west" over > the last 1500 years, an attempt is made to single out individuals and/or > "movements" ... Why is this an either/or? Why would viewing something like this as if it were a disembodied generic condition, more grounded in reality than paying attention to the actual individuals and movements that enact it? The Buddhist perspective (at least for Sautrantikas, Yogacaras, and many others) is that reality concerns distinct individuals; the generic version is mere conceptualization (praj~napti-maatra). In general terms, that means there are no groups, only collectives of individuals (perhaps unified by shared characteristics). Even less are there actual disembodied generic realities. If certain individuals are pivot points, i.e., places or loci where the convergence of the pertinent conditions and their effects are more clearly in evidence, wouldn't they be the ideal subjects for study, especially if some version of that convergent conglomeration is still at play today? Just asking? Dan From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Sat Jan 3 11:27:24 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 18:27:24 -0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] What are the "joys of living"? In-Reply-To: References: <200606231800.k5NI0jXr030282@ns1.swcp.com> <1126202464.20060625002615@kungzhi.org> <1712321670.20060625102753@kungzhi.org> <261136201.20060625135358@kungzhi.org> <119576618.20060626003646@gmail.com> <705190058.20060627062503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1985255190.20060628130441@gmail.com> Mike wrote: MA> So, it is not necessary to do something in order to not want to do MA> it. Maybe it often happens that way, but it is not a MA> prerequisite. I agree. The difference with your argumentation is that I think we have done it. We are able to know a same nature in different motives presented to us. In this way, our past experiences with some of them can be enough to avoid the similar ones. If we look at our own life, we can realize that we have killed, stolen, lied and the rest. In example, when we were children we have killed ants or little animals. This experience allow us to understand this thing and the sense of a law. From here, to apply the respect for the life to any other being. However, if somebody doesn't have a notion of life and death, he will not be able to avoid that action when he lack of an inner conviction about the nature of that. For this reason children are innocent in front laws, etc... MA> It is like taking poison. One has a fear of taking poison because MA> one has a fear of the result. Thus one renounces samsara. it is because we know that poison. Paracelso already discovered that really there is not poison but different doses. Experience of unwholesome things is needed precisely to be able of renounce samsara. See the Buddha life. He was the being with the best karma of this world but he needed the life of Siddharta before become a Buddha. MA> One can at least cease to create further causes. Then one can also take MA> action against previous causes, just as one may brake a car after having MA> accumulated speed. Of course, the status of 'causes' is a philosophical MA> issue. If it were the case that there were distinct, existing causes, it MA> would be the case that the results must arise immediately. It is because MA> things depend on a multitude of conditioning factors that some so-called MA> 'causes' may be averted. I agree with you all time but in a partial way. We are able to put an end to causes of in dependence of our knowledge of them. It is always limited but also it is higher when we have some experience of them. MA> I remember seeing a cartoon of a guy reading a book called "Being in the MA> Moment". On his desk, there was a book "Being in the Moment after That." MA> Although this is funny, it tells a story. One can 'be in the moment' if MA> one is unconcerned about the future. So how does one become unconcerned MA> about the future? One reduces actions that produce dukkha. Merely 'being MA> in the moment' - i.e. as some sort of slogan - without appreciating this MA> is like trying to achieve liberation through ignorance. Well, I agree. Avoiding dukkha and purify the mind it's a way to reach the present moment. Note while we are talking about dukkha, one is engaged quickly in the problem of reaching the present moment. While the mind is engaged in seeking truth, thoughts about unwholesome actions decreases in a natural way. There is a natural morality arising when wisdom improves. For this same reason, teaching the avoiding of sex and salsa for beginners it's one of the more bizarre things that I have read in this list. Because one should known by himself the coherence of such rules to have an inner conviction. The preach it's a poor patch. If one wants to follow Vinaya, the way of home-leavers, he need to be a home-leaver. If one doesn't want such life, then one should know the purpose of Vinaya before try to adopt that in the lay life. Vinaya is the higher practice to be established in the present moment by purifying the mind. However, these rules cannot be applied for a lay person in society, because they can cause dukkha and the abandonment of the Way. No master in the Buddhist history teached permanent Vinaya rules for lay people. It is a complete aberration. It remembers what happens in some religions, in where some preachers teaches the lay people to follow strict rules which in origin belonged to ascetics and monks. It is a crazy thing. People leaves such discourses except in those dirty relations involving the submission of other minds. There is some people who enjoy the lust of such minister because they see their brothers and sisters as toys to calm his own anguish and miseries. They want celebrity, be famous, the submission. That people belongs to Mara. Not Buddha neither Jesus they preached to lay followers to follow these strict rules. They teached self-control and respect, and not forgetting the true goal of human being while one is engaged in the lay life. Taking some precepts and keeping a practice according the situation, until they can reach by themselves an higher intention. There is a future only for those Religions able to return to their own roots, and it means able to respect the space of lay people. The consequence will be the respect of lay people to the religious life. As always has happened. If one want to taste the life under Vinaya, he can go to any Monastery, and TRUE followers of Vinaya sure they will be happy to teach him. Without lies. Preachers of anguish go home. best regards, From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 3 11:57:00 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 11:57:00 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Voegelin and Nansen's cat In-Reply-To: <495FA727.6050707@cola.iges.org> References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost><495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com><00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan><495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org><001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan><018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan><495DF02B.3030701@xs4all.nl><002301c96ccd$5cddb920$2101a8c0@Dan><495E36E6.1060700@xs4all.nl> <002e01c96d0f$3c0b7290$2101a8c0@Dan> <796264960.20090103064556@gmail.com><93AB2EB1FF424FC5A0D6A94BAA41F925@OPTIPLEX> <495F99EF.9070804@cola.iges.org><687566F9614540B2B81A544BB7BC44B5@OPTIPLEX> <495FA727.6050707@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <4B9133F0412745FFBFB91065382C43B0@OPTIPLEX> No prob--just wanted to clear things up JK ========= I apologize for my sloppiness - I was quoting from Vincente's post, but I mistakenly used a post in which Joanna was quoting from the same post by Vincente - rather than the original one! Curt jkirk wrote: > Curt says: > jkirk wrote: > > I didn't write that--it was part of a message from Vicente. > Joanna > From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 3 19:08:28 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 19:08:28 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jung and Dignaga In-Reply-To: <781574.97756.qm@web54601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <781574.97756.qm@web54601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1231034908.5613.15.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2008-12-31 at 19:27 -0800, Katherine Masis wrote: > Richard wrote: "Fortunately, there has never been a Freudian who has ever demonized > Jung. Thank heavens polemicization is a one-way street." > > Richard, are your saying this tongue-in-cheek or seriously? The former. -- Richard From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Sat Jan 3 19:50:43 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 18:50:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Voegelin and Nansen's cat Message-ID: <643851.72225.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Vicente wrote: ? "I wonder if the USA psychotherapy is an equivalent of European soccer, and in that case, the European decadence is complete." ? No, Vicente.? It's the equivalent of Latin American soccer, in which case the Latin American decadence is complete.? :-) ? Katherine From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 3 21:37:10 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 21:37:10 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Voegelin and Nansen's cat In-Reply-To: <643851.72225.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <643851.72225.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <09705AFAC76C47B58D19EDBD931F6313@OPTIPLEX> This segment on the list sort of reminded me of this good ol song: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5znh58WITU8 , or http://www.joesouth.com/ Whoa--the games people play now. Every night and every day now. Never meanin' what they say now. Never sayin' what they mean. While they wile away the hours in their ivory towers, 'till they're covered-up with flowers in the back of a black limousine. [more] JK From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 4 05:22:40 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 05:22:40 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism Message-ID: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> Dear denizens, I just finished attending a four-day conference/retreat on the enneagram sponsored by the Center for Action and Contemplation in Albuquerque (http://cacradicalgrace.com/). The main speaker was Russ Hudson, co-author with Don Riso of The Wisdom of the Enneagram. Hudson, by the way, is one of the most engaging speakers I have heard on any topic. If you get a chance to hear him someday, don't pass it up. He and Riso have a good website, too: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ The Center for Action and Contemplation is a Catholic center, so most of the discussion of the enneagram at this conference was focused on how it could support Christian practices. While I have no aversion to Christian beliefs and practices, Christianity is not the framework in which I am most at home expressing my own experiences. As the conference unfolded I couldn't help thinking of the enneagram as a tool that could support Buddhist practices. Years ago I had a student who was both a practicing Sufi and a Nyingma Buddhist. He used the enneagram extensively and gave some interesting talks on the topic. What I'm wondering is whether any of you BUDDHA-howLers have made use of the enneagram as a tool in helping you choose the most effective Buddhist practices for your temperament and personality type. If so, I'd be interested in hearing from you off-line. Please contact me at rhayes at unm.edu. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Sun Jan 4 06:32:29 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 14:32:29 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Voegelin and Nansen's cat In-Reply-To: <643851.72225.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <643851.72225.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1472263522.20090104143229@gmail.com> Katherine wrote: KM> No, Vicente.? It's the equivalent of Latin American soccer, in which case KM> the Latin American decadence is complete.? :-) that demonstrate the soccer is quite associated with decadence, like the shouting of my neighborhood shows every weekend :( From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 4 07:24:12 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 07:24:12 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FYI---PBS special series on India, starting Jan 5th Message-ID: <42ED38EFE38D4B19BB297275A44B8B57@OPTIPLEX> Colorful infotainment http://www.pbs.org/thestoryofindia/ Joanna From parisjm2004 at gmail.com Sun Jan 4 08:00:36 2009 From: parisjm2004 at gmail.com (Michael Paris) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 09:00:36 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Voegelin and Nansen's cat In-Reply-To: <796264960.20090103064556@gmail.com> References: <1227849305.10155.20.camel@localhost> <495C3825.7050704@roadrunner.com><00b101c96c38$993474d0$2101a8c0@Dan> <495D0DC5.7000701@cola.iges.org> <001101c96c65$a3909cb0$2101a8c0@Dan> <018501c96c77$499b43b0$2101a8c0@Dan><495DF02B.3030701@xs4all.nl> <002301c96ccd$5cddb920$2101a8c0@Dan> <495E36E6.1060700@xs4all.nl> <002e01c96d0f$3c0b7290$2101a8c0@Dan> <796264960.20090103064556@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4960CF14.9020704@gmail.com> Not to mention the marvelous Army knives. Vicente Gonzalez wrote: > There are other interesting swiss contributions to this world like > chocolate, cheese and the impertinent cuckoo clocks. > From curt at cola.iges.org Sun Jan 4 09:16:32 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 11:16:32 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4960E0E0.9020701@cola.iges.org> I don't have any first hand experience (or even second hand knowledge) about the uses of the Enneagram, but I have long been fascinated by Gurdjieff and his teachings. And, by a strange coincidence I have just recently started researching the work of the 12th century scholar/mystic Raymond Lull. Supposedly Ouspensky and Gurdjieff studied Lull's work intently when they first met (1914). Ouspenksy, by the way, had just returned from India where he met Sri Aurobindo and Annie Besant. According to David Allen Hulse two keys to unlocking Gurdjieff's Enneagram are (1) the nine pointed star at the center of Lull's system, which represented Cabalistic correspondences, and (2) the Georgian alphabet, which is isosephic (each letter is also a numeral). See "The Eastern Mysteries" by David Allen Hulse p. 208-221: http://books.google.com/books?id=sWHjIxkvXYEC&pg=PA215&lpg=PA215&dq=gurdjieff+raymond+lull&source=web&ots=H8I4jYA0vq&sig=RKTnfXcKujgzqv3WSl7IDR1BNSU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPR15,M1 If the above link gets broken do a google book search on "The Eastern Mysteries", the entire section on Gurdjieff and the Enneagram can be read online. Curt Steinmetz Richard Hayes wrote: > Dear denizens, > > I just finished attending a four-day conference/retreat on the enneagram > sponsored by the Center for Action and Contemplation in Albuquerque > (http://cacradicalgrace.com/). The main speaker was Russ Hudson, > co-author with Don Riso of The Wisdom of the Enneagram. Hudson, by the > way, is one of the most engaging speakers I have heard on any topic. If > you get a chance to hear him someday, don't pass it up. He and Riso have > a good website, too: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ > > The Center for Action and Contemplation is a Catholic center, so most of > the discussion of the enneagram at this conference was focused on how it > could support Christian practices. While I have no aversion to Christian > beliefs and practices, Christianity is not the framework in which I am > most at home expressing my own experiences. As the conference unfolded I > couldn't help thinking of the enneagram as a tool that could support > Buddhist practices. Years ago I had a student who was both a practicing > Sufi and a Nyingma Buddhist. He used the enneagram extensively and gave > some interesting talks on the topic. > > What I'm wondering is whether any of you BUDDHA-howLers have made use of > the enneagram as a tool in helping you choose the most effective > Buddhist practices for your temperament and personality type. If so, I'd > be interested in hearing from you off-line. Please contact me at > rhayes at unm.edu. > > From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 4 09:29:17 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 09:29:17 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <4960E0E0.9020701@cola.iges.org> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4960E0E0.9020701@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <854D27B002B64F5195536CC4954308A8@OPTIPLEX> Hi Curt, In case you don't know about the tinyurl thingy, here is your long link converted to a tiny url: http://tinyurl.com/84egu8 With long, possibly broken links, this is a good way to go. The free service is here: http://tinyurl.com/ Cheers, Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Curt Steinmetz Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:17 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism According to David Allen Hulse two keys to unlocking Gurdjieff's Enneagram are (1) the nine pointed star at the center of Lull's system, which represented Cabalistic correspondences, and (2) the Georgian alphabet, which is isosephic (each letter is also a numeral). See "The Eastern Mysteries" by David Allen Hulse p. 208-221: http://books.google.com/books?id=sWHjIxkvXYEC&pg=PA215&lpg=PA215& dq=gurdjieff+raymond+lull&source=web&ots=H8I4jYA0vq&sig=RKTnfXcKu jgzqv3WSl7IDR1BNSU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#P PR15,M1 If the above link gets broken do a google book search on "The Eastern Mysteries", the entire section on Gurdjieff and the Enneagram can be read online. Curt Steinmetz From curt at cola.iges.org Sun Jan 4 09:54:03 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 11:54:03 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <854D27B002B64F5195536CC4954308A8@OPTIPLEX> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4960E0E0.9020701@cola.iges.org> <854D27B002B64F5195536CC4954308A8@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <4960E9AB.30308@cola.iges.org> Thanks for that! As a test, here is an interview with author/occultist David Allen Hulse: *http://tinyurl.com/85k8of* And here is a bio of Hulse from his website: *http://tinyurl.com/7jbggb* According to his bio he has been strongly influenced by both Hinduism and Buddhism. Curt jkirk wrote: > Hi Curt, > > In case you don't know about the tinyurl thingy, here is your > long link converted to a tiny url: http://tinyurl.com/84egu8 > With long, possibly broken links, this is a good way to go. The > free service is here: http://tinyurl.com/ > > Cheers, > Joanna > > > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com > [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Curt > Steinmetz > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:17 AM > To: Buddhist discussion forum > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism > > > > According to David Allen Hulse two keys to unlocking Gurdjieff's > Enneagram are (1) the nine pointed star at the center of Lull's > system, which represented Cabalistic correspondences, and (2) the > Georgian alphabet, which is isosephic (each letter is also a > numeral). See "The Eastern Mysteries" by David Allen Hulse p. > 208-221: > http://books.google.com/books?id=sWHjIxkvXYEC&pg=PA215&lpg=PA215& > dq=gurdjieff+raymond+lull&source=web&ots=H8I4jYA0vq&sig=RKTnfXcKu > jgzqv3WSl7IDR1BNSU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#P > PR15,M1 > > If the above link gets broken do a google book search on "The > Eastern Mysteries", the entire section on Gurdjieff and the > Enneagram can be read online. > > Curt Steinmetz > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From leigh at deneb.org Sun Jan 4 13:50:41 2009 From: leigh at deneb.org (Leigh Goldstein) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 12:50:41 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> According to my understanding, the popular theory of personality types based on the enneagram (type 1 through type 9) is not of Sufi or Gurdjieffian derivation but was originated by Oscar Ichazo who founded Arica, and given some professional credibility by Dr. Claudio Naranjo, a psychiatrist and spiritual teacher. Naranjo studied with Ichazo (briefly) as well as Fritz Perls, and has related the enneatypes to DSM IV in his books. There are various origina myths / rumors about how Ichaza came up with the enneagram. Gurdjieffian use of the enneagram seems, to me, to be quite different; it is usually used to describe patterns in processes, such as cooking a meal or spiritual practice. I did a workshop with Naranjo and then used his books for his recommended self-analysis for spiritual seekers. It did appear to give me a break-through insight into my own character and behavior and appropriate therapeutic/spiritual practices. Naranjo also has studied Nyingma Buddhism himself, and eduSAT, or SAT, (his organization for teaching the enneatypes) includes teaching Buddhist meditation (Vipassana, Zazen and Tibetan according to their literature). ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Hayes To: BUDDHA_L Forum Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 4:22 AM Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism Dear denizens, I just finished attending a four-day conference/retreat on the enneagram sponsored by the Center for Action and Contemplation in Albuquerque (http://cacradicalgrace.com/). The main speaker was Russ Hudson, co-author with Don Riso of The Wisdom of the Enneagram. Hudson, by the way, is one of the most engaging speakers I have heard on any topic. If you get a chance to hear him someday, don't pass it up. He and Riso have a good website, too: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ The Center for Action and Contemplation is a Catholic center, so most of the discussion of the enneagram at this conference was focused on how it could support Christian practices. While I have no aversion to Christian beliefs and practices, Christianity is not the framework in which I am most at home expressing my own experiences. As the conference unfolded I couldn't help thinking of the enneagram as a tool that could support Buddhist practices. Years ago I had a student who was both a practicing Sufi and a Nyingma Buddhist. He used the enneagram extensively and gave some interesting talks on the topic. What I'm wondering is whether any of you BUDDHA-howLers have made use of the enneagram as a tool in helping you choose the most effective Buddhist practices for your temperament and personality type. If so, I'd be interested in hearing from you off-line. Please contact me at rhayes at unm.edu. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Sun Jan 4 14:09:01 2009 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 13:09:01 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> Message-ID: <371ECFFD-A7C6-45F9-A64D-18F89FB769ED@wheelwrightassoc.com> I agree Leigh. These are the roots of our current enneatype system as used by professional therapists and trainers. Naranjo's work is seminal to many modern practitioners and thinkers. The Arica Institute, which Ichazo founded was the place where many early participants began their work with the enneagram, and Naranjo is a product of that early training as well, though he broke with Ichazo and turned more toward modern psychotherapy with his process. Timothy Smith Wheelwright Associates www.wheelwrightassoc.com On Jan 4, 2009, at 12:50 PM, Leigh Goldstein wrote: > According to my understanding, the popular theory of personality > types based on the enneagram (type 1 through type 9) is not of Sufi > or Gurdjieffian derivation but was originated by Oscar Ichazo who > founded Arica, and given some professional credibility by Dr. > Claudio Naranjo, a psychiatrist and spiritual teacher. Naranjo > studied with Ichazo (briefly) as well as Fritz Perls, and has > related the enneatypes to DSM IV in his books. > > There are various origina myths / rumors about how Ichaza came up > with the enneagram. Gurdjieffian use of the enneagram seems, to me, > to be quite different; it is usually used to describe patterns in > processes, such as cooking a meal or spiritual practice. > > I did a workshop with Naranjo and then used his books for his > recommended self-analysis for spiritual seekers. It did appear to > give me a break-through insight into my own character and behavior > and appropriate therapeutic/spiritual practices. > > Naranjo also has studied Nyingma Buddhism himself, and eduSAT, or > SAT, (his organization for teaching the enneatypes) includes > teaching Buddhist meditation (Vipassana, Zazen and Tibetan according > to their literature). > > ---- From curt at cola.iges.org Sun Jan 4 16:45:11 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:45:11 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> Message-ID: <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> First of all it should be noted that the original intention of the Enneagram was, literally, to explain everything. Therefore applying it to psychology is just a specific case. This was the intention of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky - and it was also the original intention of Raymond Llull. The Enneagram has simply followed a common trajectory that it shares with many other originally "occult" spiritual teachings that have been recast as "psychological tools" of various kinds. I suppose this makes them appear less scary and more scientifical. The whole notion of "personality types", btw, is inextricably tied up with Astrology, Sympathetic Magic, and the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle, among other things. Ichazo claims to have studied with an esoteric group in Buenos Aires. Since he is extremely vague about this the implication is that one of the following is the case: (1) he read some books and made this stuff up on his own (2) he is bound by oaths of secrecy to not reveal more Here is Ichazo in his own words, with snarky notes added by someone who is trying to insinuate that Ichazo has a connection to Carlos Castaneda: [from here: http://tinyurl.com/857s7p *] * "Oscar: When I was nineteen [since Ichazo was born in Bolivia in July 1931, that would mean 1950 or '51], a remarkable man found me in La Paz. He was sixty years old and when he began to teach me, I knew from the beginning that he was speaking the truth. This man, whose name I have pledged not to reveal [sound familiar?], belonged to a small group in Buenos Aires that met to share their knowledge of various esoteric consciousness-altering techniques. I became the coffee boy for this group. I would get up at four A.M. to make their coffee and breakfast and would stay around as inconspicuously as possible. Gradually they got used to my presence and they started using me as a guinea pig to demonstrate techniques to each other. To settle arguments about whether some particular kind of meditation or mantra worked, they would have me try it and report what I experienced. Keen: What kinds of disciplines were being shared in the group? Oscar: About two-thirds of the group were Orientals, so they were strong on Zen, Sufism, and Kaballah. They also used some techniques I later found in the Gurdjieff work. Keen: Where does the story go from here? Oscar: One day when I was serving coffee, an argument arose between two members of the group. I turned to one and said, 'You are not right. He is right.' Just like that. Then I explained the point until both of them understood. This incident changed everything. They asked me to leave, and I thought I was being kicked out for being pretentious. But after about a week, they called me back and told me they had all decided to teach me. They worked with me for two more years and then opened doors for me in the Orient. After a time of remaining at home in Chile, I began to travel and study in the East [starting in '56], in Hong Kong, India, and Tibet. I did more work in the martial arts, learned all of the higher yogas, studied Buddhism, and Confucianism, alchemy, and the wisdom of the I Ching. Then I went back to La Paz to live with my father and digest my learnings. After working alone for a year, I went into a divine coma for seven days. When I came out of it I knew that I should teach; it was impossible that all my good luck should be only for myself [also familiar?]. Curt Steinmetz Leigh Goldstein wrote: > According to my understanding, the popular theory of personality types based on the enneagram (type 1 through type 9) is not of Sufi or Gurdjieffian derivation but was originated by Oscar Ichazo who founded Arica, and given some professional credibility by Dr. Claudio Naranjo, a psychiatrist and spiritual teacher. Naranjo studied with Ichazo (briefly) as well as Fritz Perls, and has related the enneatypes to DSM IV in his books. > > There are various origina myths / rumors about how Ichaza came up with the enneagram. Gurdjieffian use of the enneagram seems, to me, to be quite different; it is usually used to describe patterns in processes, such as cooking a meal or spiritual practice. > > I did a workshop with Naranjo and then used his books for his recommended self-analysis for spiritual seekers. It did appear to give me a break-through insight into my own character and behavior and appropriate therapeutic/spiritual practices. > > Naranjo also has studied Nyingma Buddhism himself, and eduSAT, or SAT, (his organization for teaching the enneatypes) includes teaching Buddhist meditation (Vipassana, Zazen and Tibetan according to their literature). > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Richard Hayes > To: BUDDHA_L Forum > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 4:22 AM > Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism > > > Dear denizens, > > I just finished attending a four-day conference/retreat on the enneagram > sponsored by the Center for Action and Contemplation in Albuquerque > (http://cacradicalgrace.com/). The main speaker was Russ Hudson, > co-author with Don Riso of The Wisdom of the Enneagram. Hudson, by the > way, is one of the most engaging speakers I have heard on any topic. If > you get a chance to hear him someday, don't pass it up. He and Riso have > a good website, too: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ > > The Center for Action and Contemplation is a Catholic center, so most of > the discussion of the enneagram at this conference was focused on how it > could support Christian practices. While I have no aversion to Christian > beliefs and practices, Christianity is not the framework in which I am > most at home expressing my own experiences. As the conference unfolded I > couldn't help thinking of the enneagram as a tool that could support > Buddhist practices. Years ago I had a student who was both a practicing > Sufi and a Nyingma Buddhist. He used the enneagram extensively and gave > some interesting talks on the topic. > > What I'm wondering is whether any of you BUDDHA-howLers have made use of > the enneagram as a tool in helping you choose the most effective > Buddhist practices for your temperament and personality type. If so, I'd > be interested in hearing from you off-line. Please contact me at > rhayes at unm.edu. > > -- > Richard Hayes > Department of Philosophy > University of New Mexico > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From alex at chagchen.org Sun Jan 4 17:33:52 2009 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:33:52 +1100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> Curt Steinmetz told us: > First of all it should be noted that the original intention of the > Enneagram was, literally, to explain everything. What a bizarrely unlikely project! I *shall* be looking into some of these links, but this is not an encouraging start. ????????????????????????????? ????? All the best Alex Wilding From curt at cola.iges.org Sun Jan 4 18:19:05 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 20:19:05 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> Message-ID: <49616009.2060109@cola.iges.org> Alex Wilding wrote: > Curt Steinmetz told us: > >> First of all it should be noted that the original intention of the >> Enneagram was, literally, to explain everything. >> > > What a bizarrely unlikely project! I *shall* be looking into some of these > links, but this is not an encouraging start. > The theoretical basis is to be found in Plato's Timaeus, although Plato in turn based much of his cosmology on Pythagorean ideas. If one accepts that the Cosmos is rational and that the "logos" of our individual souls (that which gives us the ability to reason) is of the same kind as the "logos" of the World Soul (which extends everywhere), then one is almost done. All that remains is (1) to demonstrate that reason itself is reducible to a manageable number of basic principles (9 is the most popular number), (2) discover what those principles are, and (3) develop systematic means for "reasoning" reliably from the (unavoidably) very abstract basic principles to real life useful applications. Obviously (if you think about it) once such a general system is in place it is still a nontrivial project to apply it to specific problems (this is the origin of the phrase "a simple matter of programming"). Almost as obviously is the fact that once a specific application has been worked out in it's gory details the "system" behind it all can easily be forgotten about. For example, the design of every digital electronic device is based on concepts developed by George Boole and Alan Turing - but one need not know that in order to send and receive email. Umberto Eco devoted a chapter to Raymond Lull in his book "In Search of the Perfect Language": http://tinyurl.com/75ydsq Here is an excerpt: "Lull led a carefree early life which ended when he experienced a mystic crisis. As a result he entered the order of Tertian friars. It was among the Franciscans that all of the earlier strands converged in his 'Ars Magna', which Lull conceived as a system of perfect language with which to convert the infidels. The language was to be universal; it was to be articulated at the level of expression in a universal mathematics of combinations; its level of content was to consist of a network of universal ideas, held by all peoples, which Lull himself would devise." Curt Steinmetz From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Sun Jan 4 18:31:55 2009 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 17:31:55 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <49616009.2060109@cola.iges.org> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> <49616009.2060109@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: I can say categorically, that I've never met any serious student or practitioner of the enneagram that would acknowledge what Curt asserts and Alex quotes has any bearing on the current state of enneagram studies and practice. It seems to me that a great deal of what has become specialized science began with the same end in mind that Curt articulates. The question for me is, so what? Timothy Smith Wheelwright Associates www.wheelwrightassoc.com On Jan 4, 2009, at 5:19 PM, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > Alex Wilding wrote: >> Curt Steinmetz told us: >> >>> First of all it should be noted that the original intention of the >>> Enneagram was, literally, to explain everything. >>> >> >> What a bizarrely unlikely project! I *shall* be looking into some >> of these >> links, but this is not an encouraging start. >> > > The theoretical basis is to be found in Plato's Timaeus, although > Plato > in turn based much of his cosmology on Pythagorean ideas. > > If one accepts that the Cosmos is rational and that the "logos" of our > individual souls (that which gives us the ability to reason) is of the > same kind as the "logos" of the World Soul (which extends everywhere), > then one is almost done. All that remains is (1) to demonstrate that > reason itself is reducible to a manageable number of basic > principles (9 > is the most popular number), (2) discover what those principles are, > and > (3) develop systematic means for "reasoning" reliably from the > (unavoidably) very abstract basic principles to real life useful > applications. > > Obviously (if you think about it) once such a general system is in > place > it is still a nontrivial project to apply it to specific problems > (this > is the origin of the phrase "a simple matter of programming"). > Almost as > obviously is the fact that once a specific application has been worked > out in it's gory details the "system" behind it all can easily be > forgotten about. For example, the design of every digital electronic > device is based on concepts developed by George Boole and Alan > Turing - > but one need not know that in order to send and receive email. > > Umberto Eco devoted a chapter to Raymond Lull in his book "In Search > of > the Perfect Language": > http://tinyurl.com/75ydsq > > Here is an excerpt: > > "Lull led a carefree early life which ended when he experienced a > mystic > crisis. As a result he entered the order of Tertian friars. It was > among > the Franciscans that all of the earlier strands converged in his 'Ars > Magna', which Lull conceived as a system of perfect language with > which > to convert the infidels. The language was to be universal; it was to > be > articulated at the level of expression in a universal mathematics of > combinations; its level of content was to consist of a network of > universal ideas, held by all peoples, which Lull himself would > devise." > > Curt Steinmetz > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From bshmr at aol.com Sun Jan 4 19:13:56 2009 From: bshmr at aol.com (R B Basham) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 20:13:56 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism Message-ID: <1231121636.5218.78.camel@aims110> I believe that the Enneagram is a presentational form of natural processes from the days of ancient numerology (sacred mathematics, etc.) and I recall seeing the image before in context of something else. What is being discussed then would properly be called the 'Enneagram of Personality', a view which likely fits with Curt's. Perhaps one of the history of philosophy buffs will speak up; and then, we can move on to the discussing the karma of oppressors and deniers. Richard Basham From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Sun Jan 4 19:35:04 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 03:35:04 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <49616009.2060109@cola.iges.org> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> <49616009.2060109@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <121895264.20090105033504@gmail.com> Curt wrote: CS> Lull conceived as a system of perfect language with which CS> to convert the infidels. The language was to be universal; it was to be CS> articulated at the level of expression in a universal mathematics of CS> combinations; its level of content was to consist of a network of CS> universal ideas, held by all peoples, which Lull himself would devise." that's truth. Llull wrote many times about one anecdote to defend his strange artifacts. He visited the Sultan of Tunisia to convert him, and the Sultan asked him why he had to change his religion only by faith. He asked Llull some arguments by using the Reason. He told to Llull a famous phrase: "?Credere pro credere? Credere pro vero intelligere". With these frequent obstacles, Llull was obsessed to build a perfect logical system to convert Muslims. best regards, From curt at cola.iges.org Sun Jan 4 19:49:56 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 21:49:56 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <121895264.20090105033504@gmail.com> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> <49616009.2060109@cola.iges.org> <121895264.20090105033504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49617554.9010705@cola.iges.org> Converting the infidels may or may not have been Llull's true aim. In fact, his "system" was "Christian" in name only and very few if any Muslims or Jews were ever converted because of it. However it did provide a good cover story for traveling all over the place and meeting with and engaging in philosophical discussions with people in the Muslim world. This was especially important to someone like Llull whose was drawn to Platonic philosophy, which the Muslims had done a much better job of preserving than the Catholics had. A few centuries after Llull, George Gemistos Plethon was selected to participate in an Orthodox delegation seeking re-unification with the Catholic Christians. Plethon used the opportunity to give very popular lectures on Plato in Florence, which Marsilio Ficino credited with inspiring Cosimo de' Medici to establish a Platonic Academy in Florence (which Cosimo chose Ficino to head). Curt Steinmetz Vicente Gonzalez wrote: > Curt wrote: > > CS> Lull conceived as a system of perfect language with which > CS> to convert the infidels. The language was to be universal; it was to be > CS> articulated at the level of expression in a universal mathematics of > CS> combinations; its level of content was to consist of a network of > CS> universal ideas, held by all peoples, which Lull himself would devise." > > that's truth. Llull wrote many times about one anecdote to defend his > strange artifacts. He visited the Sultan of Tunisia to convert him, > and the Sultan asked him why he had to change his religion only by > faith. He asked Llull some arguments by using the Reason. He told to > Llull a famous phrase: > > "?Credere pro credere? Credere pro vero intelligere". > > With these frequent obstacles, Llull was obsessed to build a perfect > logical system to convert Muslims. > > > best regards, > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 4 20:42:33 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 20:42:33 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> Message-ID: <1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 11:33 +1100, Alex Wilding wrote: > Curt Steinmetz told us: > > First of all it should be noted that the original intention of the > > Enneagram was, literally, to explain everything. > > What a bizarrely unlikely project! I *shall* be looking into some of these > links, but this is not an encouraging start. The enneagram undoubtedly explains your resistance to the claim that it explains everything. (I once had an astrologer explain is considerable detail how the stars and planets were in such a configuration at the time of my birth that I would be destined to a lifetime of regarding astrology as bullshot.) -- Richard From dharmafarer at gmail.com Sun Jan 4 20:54:22 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:54:22 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> <1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost> Message-ID: When I was living (early 1990s) in Berkeley as a visiting scholar at the UC Berkeley, I stayed in the house of Maylie Scott (ex-wife of Peter Scott, who was teaching English Literature UCB). She was (she has passed on) a certified Enneagram practitioner and also a Zen teacher at the Berkeley Zen Center. I attended a few of her lessons. It was interesting while my interest lasted. But I've left it all back in Berkeley. My main interest is the early Suttas. Piya On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 11:42 AM, Richard Hayes wrote: > On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 11:33 +1100, Alex Wilding wrote: > > Curt Steinmetz told us: > > > First of all it should be noted that the original intention of the > > > Enneagram was, literally, to explain everything. > > > > What a bizarrely unlikely project! I *shall* be looking into some of > these > > links, but this is not an encouraging start. > > The enneagram undoubtedly explains your resistance to the claim that it > explains everything. (I once had an astrologer explain is considerable > detail how the stars and planets were in such a configuration at the > time of my birth that I would be destined to a lifetime of regarding > astrology as bullshot.) > > -- > Richard > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 4 20:55:56 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 20:55:56 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231121636.5218.78.camel@aims110> References: <1231121636.5218.78.camel@aims110> Message-ID: <1231127756.14568.7.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2009-01-04 at 20:13 -0600, R B Basham wrote: > I believe that the Enneagram is a presentational form of natural > processes from the days of ancient numerology (sacred mathematics, etc.) > and I recall seeing the image before in context of something else. In this, as in all things, I have little interest in how things got started or whether one can contaminate them with unsavory associations. (I'm still stifling yawns over all the discussions of Jung that took place while I was away.) My main interest is whether things work for specific tasks. I thank those of you who have contacted me privately with useful information. Perhaps we can now consider this discussion closed. (Being a Nine, I avoid conflict at all costs.) > Perhaps one of the history of philosophy buffs will speak up; and then, > we can move on to the discussing the karma of oppressors and deniers. Now that you put it that way, perhaps we should rename this list enneagram-l and explore the various ways that enneagram theory has been used to justify the Cambodian sex trade and the genocide of Armenians. -- Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 4 20:57:18 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 20:57:18 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> <1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1231127839.14568.9.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 11:54 +0800, Piya Tan wrote: > My main interest is the early Suttas. Sounds like something a Six might say. -- Richard From dharmafarer at gmail.com Sun Jan 4 21:16:30 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 12:16:30 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231127839.14568.9.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> <1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost> <1231127839.14568.9.camel@localhost> Message-ID: Interesting, Six is the Guardian. And I suppose you are an Eight, the Confronter. Piya On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Richard Hayes wrote: > On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 11:54 +0800, Piya Tan wrote: > > > My main interest is the early Suttas. > > Sounds like something a Six might say. > > -- > Richard > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 4 21:34:03 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 21:34:03 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <121895264.20090105033504@gmail.com> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m><49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org><000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org><49616009.2060109@cola.iges.org> <121895264.20090105033504@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have never been able to put any credibility on converting-the-heathen fanatics. Perhaps some (if not all) of the sainted propagators of the fanatic faiths never realised the close connection between what they were doing and what their civil rulers had in mind in the way of empire building. So far, haven't found any such connection with Buddhist propagation, at least in the Pali record, such as it is. Joanna ============= that's truth. Llull wrote many times about one anecdote to defend his strange artifacts. He visited the Sultan of Tunisia to convert him, and the Sultan asked him why he had to change his religion only by faith. He asked Llull some arguments by using the Reason. He told to Llull a famous phrase: "?Credere pro credere? Credere pro vero intelligere". With these frequent obstacles, Llull was obsessed to build a perfect logical system to convert Muslims. best regards, _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 4 22:25:04 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 22:25:04 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism Message-ID: <7DE9D2FE3CF440A390F875216F025473@OPTIPLEX> Has anyone noticed this? it's from the website Richard posted yesterday: "Everyone emerges from childhood with one of the nine types dominating their personality, with inborn temperament and other pre-natal factors being the main determinants of our type. {This is one area where most all of the major Enneagram authors agree-we are born with a dominant type.} Subsequently, this inborn orientation largely determines the ways in which we learn to adapt to our early childhood environment. It also seems to lead to certain unconscious orientations toward our parental figures, but why this is so, we still do not know. In any case, by the time children are four or five years old, their consciousness has developed sufficiently to have a separate sense of self. Although their identity is still very fluid, at this age children begin to establish themselves and find ways of fitting into the world on their own. " "We are born with a dominant type." By this reckoning, nurture is passe, nature is everything. How can this idea be compatible with Buddhism and its views on no essence (anatta), on transitoriness (anicca), and on karma? Joanna From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Sun Jan 4 23:51:27 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 07:51:27 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <49617554.9010705@cola.iges.org> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> <49616009.2060109@cola.iges.org> <121895264.20090105033504@gmail.com> <49617554.9010705@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1124837434.20090105075127@gmail.com> Curt wrote: CS> Converting the infidels may or may not have been Llull's true aim. In CS> fact, his "system" was "Christian" in name only and very few if any CS> Muslims or Jews were ever converted because of it. yes... of course. The obsession of Llull with those artifacts was to drive the reason and avoiding the forced conversions. He used the anecdote to support the invention of his artifacts and discussion. CS> However it did provide a good cover story for traveling all over CS> the place and meeting with and engaging in philosophical CS> discussions with people in the Muslim world. This was especially CS> important to someone like Llull whose was drawn to Platonic CS> philosophy, which the Muslims had done a much better job of CS> preserving than the Catholics had. yes. His main influence was Al-farabi, the neoplatonic Muslim, as I mentioned to you in a private email. That open style of both was confronted with the fundamentalisms in both Christian and Muslim sides. Llull was attacked in his home by Catholics, and the Al-farabi work was attacked by Averroes, an Aristotelic philosopher who rescued Muslim doctrine of the fundamentalism of Al-Gazzali but also attacking the Alfarabi mystics speculations. In fact, Llull passed into the History like an interreligious precedent. best regards, From jkirk at spro.net Mon Jan 5 10:22:37 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:22:37 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1124837434.20090105075127@gmail.com> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m><49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org><000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org><49616009.2060109@cola.iges.org><121895264.20090105033504@gmail.com><49617554.9010705@cola.iges.org> <1124837434.20090105075127@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0A820B9D08F445D49B85C717F474CF52@OPTIPLEX> Averroes was ibn Rushd. Just to make all of their real names clear. Pedantically yours, Joanna ============================== -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Vicente Gonzalez Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 11:51 PM Curt wrote: CS> Converting the infidels may or may not have been Llull's true aim. CS> In fact, his "system" was "Christian" in name only and very few if CS> any Muslims or Jews were ever converted because of it. yes... of course. The obsession of Llull with those artifacts was to drive the reason and avoiding the forced conversions. He used the anecdote to support the invention of his artifacts and discussion. CS> However it did provide a good cover story for traveling all over CS> the place and meeting with and engaging in philosophical CS> discussions with people in the Muslim world. This was especially CS> important to someone like Llull whose was drawn to Platonic CS> philosophy, which the Muslims had done a much better job of CS> preserving than the Catholics had. yes. His main influence was Al-farabi, the neoplatonic Muslim, as I mentioned to you in a private email. That open style of both was confronted with the fundamentalisms in both Christian and Muslim sides. Llull was attacked in his home by Catholics, and the Al-farabi work was attacked by Averroes, an Aristotelic philosopher who rescued Muslim doctrine of the fundamentalism of Al-Gazzali but also attacking the Alfarabi mystics speculations. In fact, Llull passed into the History like an interreligious precedent. best regards, _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From franz at mind2mind.net Mon Jan 5 10:44:43 2009 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 09:44:43 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> <1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost> Message-ID: Piya, I'm sorry to hear that Maylie Scott has passed away. She was the very first Zen teacher I ever interviewed, back when I was getting my Masters at the Graduate Theological Union. She was delightful: honest and gracious to a naive young grad student. The Buddhist content in this post? Anicca. Sigh, Franz From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 5 11:21:56 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 11:21:56 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> <1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost> <1231127839.14568.9.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1231179716.5678.30.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 12:16 +0800, Piya Tan wrote: > Interesting, Six is the Guardian. > > And I suppose you are an Eight, the Confronter. No. Strangely enough, three and eight are the enneagram points on which I have by far the lowest scores. Determining the types of other people is, of course, pretty nearly impossible. That's fortunate, since it's also pretty nearly useless. Far more important is to gain some insight into those aspects of oneself that are obstacles to the very goals one most longs to attain. For most of my life personality typologies have fascinated me. The first one I encountered was a Myers-Briggs test I had to take as part of a job application. When it came to the interview stage, the personnel officer showed me what the Myers-Briggs profile of the most successful people in the job I was seeking. He then showed me my profile (INFP) and pointed out that it was precisely the opposite of the profile of a success (ESTJ) in that job. He said I would probably hate the job, hate most of my colleagues and hate myself for being there. He was, I am sure, right on the money. I came to think that Myers-Briggs had probably saved me from a bad experience. A few years later I became intrigued with Upatissa's typology in Vimuttimaggo (still one of my favorite books), which is also found in Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimaggo. I identified myself (correctly, I think) as a hate type, full of anger and rage. Not wanting to be stuck there, I took up metta-bh?van? practice and eventually (say, thirty years later) became somewhat more mellow and a bit closer to the more healthy side of a hate type, which Upatissa calls the discernment (buddhi) type. About fifteen years ago a student introduced me to Helen Palmer's book on the enneagram, and I then identified myself as a type one (also driven by anger and rage). In subsequent work I've come to see that a much more accurate fit is type nine (still very much anger-driven) with a strong one wing. I still mostly do mett?-bh?van?, but have lately been wondering whether other practices might complement that and help to break down, or at least reduce the effect of, a few other barriers that get in my way from time to time. Something that a lot of people I have come across have noticed is that most people have a tendency to gravitate to spiritual practices that are least likely to transform them and most likely to keep them stuck in unhealthy patterns (and thus fail to be spiritual practices at all). For example, people with a strong tendency to withdraw from problems rather than face them head on tend to become dhy?na addicts. Dhy?na practice can be a kind of narcosis. (I've certainly done a hell of a lot of that particular form of escaping into narcotic sam?dhi during my life, and it has probably done me very little good at all, and it has surely caused a lot of problems for the people who have had to live with me.) -- Richard From jkirk at spro.net Mon Jan 5 11:36:48 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:36:48 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231179716.5678.30.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m><49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org><000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org><1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost><1231127839.14568.9.camel@localhost> <1231179716.5678.30.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1D801B85937E40D3A3F0D0AC4FBD09BC@OPTIPLEX> OK, but so far nobody has replied to my question, posted earlier, about the enneagram-ers' claim that "We are born with a dominant type." They allow only for adapting to circumstances, whatever that means. How can this idea be compatible with Buddhism and its views on no essence (anatta), on impermanence (anicca), and on karma? Surely a few other list folks have some views on the issue? Joanna ================================================== .......Determining the types of other people is, of course, pretty nearly impossible. That's fortunate, since it's also pretty nearly useless. Far more important is to gain some insight into those aspects of oneself that are obstacles to the very goals one most longs to attain................ ............. -- Richard _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 5 11:52:02 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 11:52:02 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <7DE9D2FE3CF440A390F875216F025473@OPTIPLEX> References: <7DE9D2FE3CF440A390F875216F025473@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1231181522.5678.49.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2009-01-04 at 22:25 -0700, jkirk wrote: > "We are born with a dominant type." > By this reckoning, nurture is passe, nature is everything. > > How can this idea be compatible with Buddhism and its views on no > essence (anatta), on transitoriness (anicca), and on karma? It is fully compatible in every possible way. The doctrine of karma as it was developed in abhidhamma is a form of the observation that every deliberate action one does has the immediate effect of reinforcing a habit. The collection of all the habits one has defines our character. Changing habits and character is acknowledged within Buddhism as very difficult---if it were not, we would all become buddhas within minutes of admiring our first buddha and wanting to become like her. The fact that it takes decades and decades of practice to move a few inches closer to buddhahood is a testimony to the difficulty of altering karmic propensities. The fact that we can move at all is a testimony to impermanence. Enneagram teachers tend to say that we cannot move out of our basic personality type, but we can move to a much healthier manifestation of it, and the healthier the manifestation, the more freely we can manifest the healthy aspects of all the other types as well. Buddhaghosa says pretty much exactly the same thing. In most forms of abhidharma, one of the principal features of en enlightened being is intellectual and emotional flexibility. That is precisely what the enneagram, used carefully as a tool, is designed to help one cultivate. Enneagram teachers and Buddhists are in full agreement that our personality (samsk?ra-skandha) is not the self; both systems, in other word, agree on the doctrine of an?tman. What some enneagram teachers (Don Riso and Russ Hudson, for example) say is that our true self, our essential nature, lies hidden by our personalities. Riso and Hudson call this essential nature by various names ("Spirit" being their favorite), but when they describe it, the description ends up sounding remarkably like what some Buddhists call Buddha-nature. So I think if one looks a little below the level of literalism, one finds a remarkable compatibility between Buddhist terminology and the language of the enneagram. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Mon Jan 5 11:54:53 2009 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:54:53 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1D801B85937E40D3A3F0D0AC4FBD09BC@OPTIPLEX> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m><49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org><000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org><1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost><1231127839.14568.9.camel@localhost> <1231179716.5678.30.camel@localhost> <1D801B85937E40D3A3F0D0AC4FBD09BC@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <69EE9FFF-75E8-486E-9309-8633886E40E0@wheelwrightassoc.com> I didn't read Richard's link, but I'm not surprised that there may be those who think this way. My experience with field does not lead me to believe that there is a consensus that we are 'born' with a dominant type. Having said that, I can only say that I have no clue as to whether it is an accurate claim or not. I tend to side with those who believe that our characters are developed in response to our fundamental needs for security and affection. There is, however, clearly an instinctual component that seems 'hard wired' almost from birth. I do think the tool is useful in buddhist practice. Palmer has taken pains to integrate her Zen practice into her teaching and writing. Using the vice to virtue conversion is precisely what Richard described as his own practice to reduce 'wrath' (the vice of Enneatype 1) through metta-bhavana. In the quote I've added below you can see how the three poisons are addressed in this particular system (mandatory buddhist content). I'm not shilling for any particular approach, but this blurb might prove informative or at least trigger some curiosity to further explore these notions. "On basic panels we hear how focus of attention organizes the worldview of type: Fives see an intruding world; Sevens see a world of many options; Fours live in a world where other people appear to have more, and so on. Rather than being present to life as it is, each type?s point of view constantly recreates itself through placements of attention that foreground certain focal objects, while backgrounding others. The habitual way that people pay attention to their world creates a subjective reality, or conditioned awareness, sometimes called a veil of illusion. Conditioned awareness significantly alters being present to things as they actually occur. Enneatype Fives, for instance, don?t walk around looking for intrusions, they simply live in an intruding world. Their awareness mechanically registers potentially intruding events, whereas Eights might not notice those same events, automatically denying their impact. The feeling triad (Types Two?Three?Four) moves toward life, desiring identity in the eyes of others. Their condition is to register approval and suffer from its absence. Aversion is typical of the mental triad (Five?Six?Seven) who moves away from a hazardous world. The body-based triad (Eight?Nine?One) maintains a holding pattern of not knowing ? the denial of Eight, self-forgetting of Nine, and Ones who judge life as it is. Desire, aversion and self-forgetting each respond to specific meditation practices that spring the box of conditioned awareness." From the Enneagram Worldwide site. Timothy Smith Wheelwright Associates www.wheelwrightassoc.com On Jan 5, 2009, at 10:36 AM, jkirk wrote: > OK, but so far nobody has replied to my question, posted earlier, > about the enneagram-ers' claim that > "We are born with a dominant type." > > They allow only for adapting to circumstances, whatever that > means. > > How can this idea be compatible with Buddhism and its views on no > essence (anatta), on impermanence (anicca), and on karma? > > Surely a few other list folks have some views on the issue? > > Joanna > ================================================== > .......Determining the types of other people is, of course, > pretty nearly impossible. That's fortunate, since it's also > pretty nearly useless. Far more important is to gain some insight > into those aspects of oneself that are obstacles to the very > goals one most longs to attain................ > ............. > -- > Richard > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 5 12:01:50 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 12:01:50 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <0A820B9D08F445D49B85C717F474CF52@OPTIPLEX> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m><49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org><49616009.2060109@cola.iges.org> <121895264.20090105033504@gmail.com><49617554.9010705@cola.iges.org> <1124837434.20090105075127@gmail.com> <0A820B9D08F445D49B85C717F474CF52@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1231182110.5678.56.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:22 -0700, jkirk wrote: > Averroes was ibn Rushd. > Just to make all of their real names clear. Nobody has a real name, Dr Kirkpatrick. Any name that works is as real as any other. (Sorry, but I've been reading a lot of Dign?ga recently. I wonder what the hell HIS real name was.) Yours (and anybody else's who wants me), Mubul, Dayamati, Ricky, Dick, Hud, Coyote, and Richard (throughout my undergrad career my beard earned me the nickname Bush, a bit of nomenclature I have spent the last eight years trying to forget) From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 5 12:06:31 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 12:06:31 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <69EE9FFF-75E8-486E-9309-8633886E40E0@wheelwrightassoc.com> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m><49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org><1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost> <1231127839.14568.9.camel@localhost> <1231179716.5678.30.camel@localhost> <1D801B85937E40D3A3F0D0AC4FBD09BC@OPTIPLEX> <69EE9FFF-75E8-486E-9309-8633886E40E0@wheelwrightassoc.com> Message-ID: <1231182392.5678.60.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:54 -0800, Timothy Smith wrote: > My experience with field does not lead me to believe > that > there is a consensus that we are 'born' with a dominant type. Riso and Hudson say in their 1999 book that we may be born with a dominant type. In a Q&A session this past weekend, Hudson said that there is no consensus on this point but that most people feel that early childhood plays a major role. It is, he says, almost certainly not genetic. -- Richard Hayes (or somebody else having the same name) From leigh at deneb.org Mon Jan 5 12:53:04 2009 From: leigh at deneb.org (Leigh Goldstein) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:53:04 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism References: <7DE9D2FE3CF440A390F875216F025473@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: I dont see any contradiction between saying a personality type is present at birth and karma or another buddhist doctrine. For example, the color of our eyes is present at birth, and doesn't violate karma, no-self or impermanence. A genetic tendency to anger, if it existed, wouldn't violate such doctrines. Even a doctrine of karma from past lives doesn't violate no-self or impermanence. You might say it is karma to get a particular type doled out whenever it is. ----- Original Message ----- From: jkirk To: 'Buddhist discussion forum' Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:25 PM Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism Has anyone noticed this? it's from the website Richard posted yesterday: "Everyone emerges from childhood with one of the nine types dominating their personality, with inborn temperament and other pre-natal factors being the main determinants of our type. {This is one area where most all of the major Enneagram authors agree-we are born with a dominant type.} Subsequently, this inborn orientation largely determines the ways in which we learn to adapt to our early childhood environment. It also seems to lead to certain unconscious orientations toward our parental figures, but why this is so, we still do not know. In any case, by the time children are four or five years old, their consciousness has developed sufficiently to have a separate sense of self. Although their identity is still very fluid, at this age children begin to establish themselves and find ways of fitting into the world on their own. " "We are born with a dominant type." By this reckoning, nurture is passe, nature is everything. How can this idea be compatible with Buddhism and its views on no essence (anatta), on transitoriness (anicca), and on karma? Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From leigh at deneb.org Mon Jan 5 13:47:12 2009 From: leigh at deneb.org (Leigh Goldstein) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 12:47:12 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m><49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org><000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org><1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost><1231127839.14568.9.camel@localhost> <1231179716.5678.30.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <7417ED83633542F1819B25342B3EFD28@600m> After reading Naranjo's "Character and Neurosis: An Integrative View" and "Ennea-type Structures: Self-Analysis for the Seeker", it became very obvious to me that my personality and my behavior were a close fit to type 5, and that the inner psychological dynamics of that type fit me very well. This caused me to see (surprise) that some (not all) things I had considered "good", desirable and a valuable part of my nature were actually obstacles to what I wanted; just like many people had been telling me all my life. As Richard says, some of the attraction of meditation for me was avoidance of relationship and the denial of the need for relationship. Shortly after this, my mediation seemed to get significantly (for me) deeper. One reason I think this material had this effect on me was the shock of reading an accurate description of myself in great detail, as if in a biography, in a book of types. The explanations it gave for my behavior were more believable than what I had been telling myself. ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Hayes To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 12:16 +0800, Piya Tan wrote: > Interesting, Six is the Guardian. > > And I suppose you are an Eight, the Confronter. No. Strangely enough, three and eight are the enneagram points on which I have by far the lowest scores. Determining the types of other people is, of course, pretty nearly impossible. That's fortunate, since it's also pretty nearly useless. Far more important is to gain some insight into those aspects of oneself that are obstacles to the very goals one most longs to attain. For most of my life personality typologies have fascinated me. The first one I encountered was a Myers-Briggs test I had to take as part of a job application. When it came to the interview stage, the personnel officer showed me what the Myers-Briggs profile of the most successful people in the job I was seeking. He then showed me my profile (INFP) and pointed out that it was precisely the opposite of the profile of a success (ESTJ) in that job. He said I would probably hate the job, hate most of my colleagues and hate myself for being there. He was, I am sure, right on the money. I came to think that Myers-Briggs had probably saved me from a bad experience. A few years later I became intrigued with Upatissa's typology in Vimuttimaggo (still one of my favorite books), which is also found in Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimaggo. I identified myself (correctly, I think) as a hate type, full of anger and rage. Not wanting to be stuck there, I took up metta-bh?van? practice and eventually (say, thirty years later) became somewhat more mellow and a bit closer to the more healthy side of a hate type, which Upatissa calls the discernment (buddhi) type. About fifteen years ago a student introduced me to Helen Palmer's book on the enneagram, and I then identified myself as a type one (also driven by anger and rage). In subsequent work I've come to see that a much more accurate fit is type nine (still very much anger-driven) with a strong one wing. I still mostly do mett?-bh?van?, but have lately been wondering whether other practices might complement that and help to break down, or at least reduce the effect of, a few other barriers that get in my way from time to time. Something that a lot of people I have come across have noticed is that most people have a tendency to gravitate to spiritual practices that are least likely to transform them and most likely to keep them stuck in unhealthy patterns (and thus fail to be spiritual practices at all). For example, people with a strong tendency to withdraw from problems rather than face them head on tend to become dhy?na addicts. Dhy?na practice can be a kind of narcosis. (I've certainly done a hell of a lot of that particular form of escaping into narcotic sam?dhi during my life, and it has probably done me very little good at all, and it has surely caused a lot of problems for the people who have had to live with me.) -- Richard _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Mon Jan 5 14:14:20 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 14:14:20 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231181522.5678.49.camel@localhost> References: <7DE9D2FE3CF440A390F875216F025473@OPTIPLEX> <1231181522.5678.49.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <9CD106D454B140D08F1F7A436E3E444D@OPTIPLEX> RH: What some enneagram teachers (Don Riso and Russ Hudson, for example) say is that our true self, our essential nature, lies hidden by our personalities. Riso and Hudson call this essential nature by various names ("Spirit" being their favorite), but when they describe it, the description ends up sounding remarkably like what some Buddhists call Buddha-nature. --- JK Suspect this situation is not monolithic. Looks like different readings of it are possible-- matters of disagreement and viewpoint. The above statement about "our true self" to me suggests more the notion of aatman. Terms such as "spirit" or "soul" tend in that direction. Enneagramography attained popular acceptance during the New Age period in the US (I don't know about the EU or SA). New Agers (judging by readings in the literature they produced) are usually invested in thinking about and using such terms as soul, spirit, and spiritual. Wouldn't be surprised if some enneagramographers also subscribe to such ideas. In addition, I'm not knocking enneagramography--if people find it works for them, that's good enough for me. I might even try it. Joanna ======================== Enneagram teachers and Buddhists are in full agreement that our personality (samsk?ra-skandha) is not the self; both systems, in other word, agree on the doctrine of an?tman. What some enneagram teachers (Don Riso and Russ Hudson, for example) say is that our true self, our essential nature, lies hidden by our personalities. Riso and Hudson call this essential nature by various names ("Spirit" being their favorite), but when they describe it, the description ends up sounding remarkably like what some Buddhists call Buddha-nature. So I think if one looks a little below the level of literalism, one finds a remarkable compatibility between Buddhist terminology and the language of the enneagram. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Mon Jan 5 14:16:30 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 14:16:30 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231182110.5678.56.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m><49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org><000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org><49616009.2060109@cola.iges.org><121895264.20090105033504@gmail.com><49617554.9010705@cola.iges.org><1124837434.20090105075127@gmail.com><0A820B9D08F445D49B85C717F474CF52@OPTIPLEX> <1231182110.5678.56.camel@localhost> Message-ID: It's a bit sad, Mubul, that you choose to deny anyone else but yourself an attempt at humor, not to mention self-deprecation. =========================== On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:22 -0700, jkirk wrote: > Averroes was ibn Rushd. > Just to make all of their real names clear. Nobody has a real name, Dr Kirkpatrick. Any name that works is as real as any other. (Sorry, but I've been reading a lot of Dign?ga recently. I wonder what the hell HIS real name was.) Yours (and anybody else's who wants me), Mubul, Dayamati, Ricky, Dick, Hud, Coyote, and Richard (throughout my undergrad career my beard earned me the nickname Bush, a bit of nomenclature I have spent the last eight years trying to forget) _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From leigh at deneb.org Mon Jan 5 14:17:30 2009 From: leigh at deneb.org (Leigh Goldstein) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 13:17:30 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism Message-ID: In some versions of Gurdeiffian / Fourth Way teachings, the false personality / chief feature / personality type (which seem to be closely related and intertwined but distinct) is considered to have existed as a seperate, non-physical entity before conception (and even after death). The association beween a particular mind-stream or incarnating sentient being and this entity is based on mutual attraction or need (including being of the same or complementary type). (See, for example, a passage in Gurdjieff's "Life is Real Only Then When I Am" on the casting out of his personality as an expedient means. The presentation of this idea is often oral.) The false personality in this scheme is not identical to the self or false self, which persists in its absence, but it does exacerbate it and fixates it in a particular mode of mechanical behavior. States like calm abiding would be understood as a temporary banishing of this somewhat foreign entity, a necessary step to insight. I found this to be a particularly strange and esoteric theory, in spite of the fact that it is sometimes presented as being merely an expedient view. I have seen only a very few fleeting references in Buddhist literature to similar ideas. Is anyone aware of Buddhist sources for anything like this? ----- Original Message ----- From: Timothy Smith To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism I didn't read Richard's link, but I'm not surprised that there may be those who think this way. My experience with field does not lead me to believe that there is a consensus that we are 'born' with a dominant type. From jkirk at spro.net Mon Jan 5 14:30:55 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 14:30:55 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <69EE9FFF-75E8-486E-9309-8633886E40E0@wheelwrightassoc.com> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m><49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org><000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org><1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost><1231127839.14568.9.camel@localhost><1231179716.5678.30.camel@localhost><1D801B85937E40D3A3F0D0AC4FBD09BC@OPTIPLEX> <69EE9FFF-75E8-486E-9309-8633886E40E0@wheelwrightassoc.com> Message-ID: <0B55078177714E0EB686C0E82FC29A4D@OPTIPLEX> Tim, "{The habitual way that people pay attention to their world} creates a subjective reality, or conditioned awareness, sometimes called a veil of illusion. Conditioned awareness significantly alters being present to things as they actually occur. Enneatype Fives, for instance, don't walk around looking for intrusions, they simply live in an intruding world. Their awareness mechanically registers potentially intruding events, whereas Eights might not notice those same events, automatically denying their impact." This is sure interesting..... I can see how dealing with this via insight meditation would be very helpful. Thanks! Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Timothy Smith I didn't read Richard's link, but I'm not surprised that there may be those who think this way. My experience with field does not lead me to believe that there is a consensus that we are 'born' with a dominant type. Having said that, I can only say that I have no clue as to whether it is an accurate claim or not. I tend to side with those who believe that our characters are developed in response to our fundamental needs for security and affection. There is, however, clearly an instinctual component that seems 'hard wired' almost from birth. I do think the tool is useful in buddhist practice. Palmer has taken pains to integrate her Zen practice into her teaching and writing. Using the vice to virtue conversion is precisely what Richard described as his own practice to reduce 'wrath' (the vice of Enneatype 1) through metta-bhavana. In the quote I've added below you can see how the three poisons are addressed in this particular system (mandatory buddhist content). I'm not shilling for any particular approach, but this blurb might prove informative or at least trigger some curiosity to further explore these notions. "On basic panels we hear how focus of attention organizes the worldview of type: Fives see an intruding world; Sevens see a world of many options; Fours live in a world where other people appear to have more, and so on. Rather than being present to life as it is, each type's point of view constantly recreates itself through placements of attention that foreground certain focal objects, while backgrounding others. The habitual way that people pay attention to their world creates a subjective reality, or conditioned awareness, sometimes called a veil of illusion. Conditioned awareness significantly alters being present to things as they actually occur. Enneatype Fives, for instance, don't walk around looking for intrusions, they simply live in an intruding world. Their awareness mechanically registers potentially intruding events, whereas Eights might not notice those same events, automatically denying their impact. The feeling triad (Types Two-Three-Four) moves toward life, desiring identity in the eyes of others. Their condition is to register approval and suffer from its absence. Aversion is typical of the mental triad (Five-Six-Seven) who moves away from a hazardous world. The body-based triad (Eight-Nine-One) maintains a holding pattern of not knowing - the denial of Eight, self-forgetting of Nine, and Ones who judge life as it is. Desire, aversion and self-forgetting each respond to specific meditation practices that spring the box of conditioned awareness." From the Enneagram Worldwide site. Timothy Smith Wheelwright Associates www.wheelwrightassoc.com On Jan 5, 2009, at 10:36 AM, jkirk wrote: > OK, but so far nobody has replied to my question, posted earlier, > about the enneagram-ers' claim that "We are born with a dominant > type." > > They allow only for adapting to circumstances, whatever that means. > > How can this idea be compatible with Buddhism and its views on no > essence (anatta), on impermanence (anicca), and on karma? > > Surely a few other list folks have some views on the issue? > > Joanna > ================================================== > .......Determining the types of other people is, of course, pretty > nearly impossible. That's fortunate, since it's also pretty nearly > useless. Far more important is to gain some insight into those aspects > of oneself that are obstacles to the very goals one most longs to > attain................ > ............. > -- > Richard > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 5 16:01:52 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:01:52 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <1231182110.5678.56.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <200901051601.53049.rhayes@unm.edu> On Monday 05 January 2009 14:16:30 jkirk wrote: > It's a bit sad, Mubul, that you choose to deny anyone else but > yourself an attempt at humor, not to mention self-deprecation. Sorry. I thought one good joke deserved another. Next time I'll just laugh at your wit and not try to continue playing the similar game. From dharmafarer at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 20:23:11 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:23:11 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> <1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost> Message-ID: Hi Franz, Maylie was a dynamic and spiritual person indeed. I remember our walk amongst the foxgloves at Point Reyes. We sat at the sheer cliff edge and could see seals playing in the waters below. Once she asked me if I wanted to join in one of the inter-religious social action walks in a poor part of Oakland (if I remember rightly), where we "took over" a row of houses condemned by the authorities. I remember a police copter hovering above for a while, and that's the only police presence that I remember. Anyway we took over the houses, cleaned them up, Maylie's daughter, did some plumbing for them. Earlier on we had a inter-religious gathering in one of the old churches. Maylie struck a gong to mark the occasion. She also briefed me regarding what happens during such an action. The police would usually arrest only those leading the crowd. And when you are caught by them, she told me, simply get into a kneeling position and gassho! If you do not want to be arrested, then remain in the back rows. Anyway, it would usually be only a night in the can. One amusing anecdote she told me was when she met this very same police who has arrested her the previous year. The policeman said something like, "You know it's my duty to do this.But at the end of the day, I hang my uniform, then I think you are doing the right thing." More info on Maylie can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maylie_Scott http://www.arcatazengroup.org/maylie.php With metta, Piya Tan On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 1:44 AM, Franz Metcalf wrote: > Piya, > > I'm sorry to hear that Maylie Scott has passed away. She was the very > first Zen teacher I ever interviewed, back when I was getting my > Masters at the Graduate Theological Union. She was delightful: honest > and gracious to a naive young grad student. > > The Buddhist content in this post? > > Anicca. > > Sigh, > > Franz > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From bshmr at aol.com Tue Jan 6 13:23:23 2009 From: bshmr at aol.com (R B Basham) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:23:23 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism Message-ID: <1231273403.5256.43.camel@aims110> Like-mindeds and (k)nots, Let's not ignore that the Enneagram (of Personality) incorporates the valence of an experience (pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral; attraction, rejection, or indifferent; strokes, slashes, normal). A person exhibits the noxious aspects of a particular wing when 'slashed' -- I was thought "counter-clock-wise connected'; a person exhibits characteristics of their type when their prime motivator is neutral; ?person exhibits the noxious aspects of a particular wing when 'stroked' -- I was thought "clock-wise connected' In general, this seems to hold true. In some instances, for example, a person may infrequently experience 'strokes' (rewards) and seldom show (or test/score) the positive wing. A Three (Performer, ...) would be Attention-oriented and would show the noxious aspects of Nines when criticized, but would seldom, if ever, exhibit the noxious Fearfulness of Sixes when 'successful' (as a Three). Similarly, given the 'rules' above, an Actor who was more of less always praised would seldom show the noxious anger/control of Nines. And, so on. This dynamic is much more reliable (!) and valid (!) than those of typical in economics or typical in psychology. The consideration of valence is essentially Buddhist and alien to Western "cookie cutter", inter-changeable PC, mankind. Richard Basham From jhubbard at email.smith.edu Tue Jan 6 14:30:00 2009 From: jhubbard at email.smith.edu (Jamie Hubbard) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:30:00 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> Well, aside from being just plain silly (some of these questions remind me of the "if the boat only held two people and you had to choose between your five children. . . ), this test takes too much time--and can you believe that you have to pay *money* to waste more time? Try this instead-- you just paste in something you have written and presto! Analysis! You can even check all of the science (???) behind it as it gives a complete list of all variables tested/checked as well as journal refs, switch a number of variables (the program distinguishes between some five different kinds of text, such as email, essay, chat, etc.) and statistical models, and, the real fun: plug in somebody else's text! http://mi.eng.cam.ac.uk/~farm2//personality/demo.html Happy New Year, Jamie Richard Hayes wrote: > Dear denizens, > > I just finished attending a four-day conference/retreat on the enneagram > sponsored by the Center for Action and Contemplation in Albuquerque > (http://cacradicalgrace.com/). The main speaker was Russ Hudson, > co-author with Don Riso of The Wisdom of the Enneagram. Hudson, by the > way, is one of the most engaging speakers I have heard on any topic. If > you get a chance to hear him someday, don't pass it up. He and Riso have > a good website, too: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ > From alex at chagchen.org Tue Jan 6 18:28:26 2009 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:28:26 +1100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> Message-ID: <000001c97067$44857870$cd906950$@org> Well if I may be so blunt - blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. With one score a *little* higher than the others, and two adjacent rather low scores I ended up in all the ifs and buts and possible reasons and maybes and handwaving in an attempt to get any sort of indication. It would seem that the only way to clear up the murk would be to pay money for the next level. However, I've seen both psychic sites and porn sites and have withstood this temptation before, so the authors are out of luck there! ????????????????????????????? ????? All the best Alex Wilding From jkirk at spro.net Tue Jan 6 18:33:38 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 18:33:38 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <000001c97067$44857870$cd906950$@org> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <000001c97067$44857870$cd906950$@org> Message-ID: Ha ha~~~~~think I'll just begin by reading Palmer, inter alia~~~~~~ One can get a lot out of Jung by just reading Jung, too. Joanna ============================= It would seem that the only way to clear up the murk would be to pay money for the next level. However, I've seen both psychic sites and porn sites and have withstood this temptation before, so the authors are out of luck there! ????????????????????????????? ????? All the best Alex Wilding _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Tue Jan 6 18:50:52 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 18:50:52 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] New book Message-ID: <72DC85FBEB8C4159A5ADCC3A2656736B@OPTIPLEX> The Easternization of the West: A Thematic Account of Cultural Change in the Modern Era (The Yale Cultural Sociology Series) by Colin Campbell. Paradigm Pubs, 2008. One blurb: Campbell makes a detailed and persuasive argument to the effect that Western civilization has been deeply changed by ideas and values derived from Asia. He also explores the reasons for this development. An important book, which should be read by anyone concerned with the state of our culture. --Peter L. Berger, Director, Institute on Culture, Religion and World Affairs, Boston University From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Jan 6 19:56:18 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:56:18 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> Message-ID: <1231296979.11011.13.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2009-01-06 at 16:30 -0500, Jamie Hubbard wrote: > Well, aside from being just plain silly (some of these questions remind > me of the "if the boat only held two people and you had to choose > between your five children. . . ), this test takes too much time--and > can you believe that you have to pay *money* to waste more time? Which test takes too much time? There are at least two free ones on the Enneagram Institute website, one of which takes less than one minute. There are numerous free enneagram tests on other sites, including one that gives both an enneagram type and a Myers-Briggs. All you have to do is answer about 100 silly questions at http://www.similarminds.com/ Of course if all one does is learn one's type, it is a complete waste of time. Knowing your enneagram type and one dollar will get you a ride on the Albuquerque bus system. Using the enneagram to get some insight into what your most persistent counterproductive habits are takes quite a lot of time. It's impossible to know whether the time has been wasted until one has spent it. (It's a lot like real life in that respect.) Besides, next to reading and writing messages on buddha-l, all other wastes of time pale in comparison. > Try this instead-- you just paste in something you have written and > presto! Analysis! > http://mi.eng.cam.ac.uk/~farm2//personality/demo.html I was going to submit Finnegan's Wake to this site. (I've always wondered what kind of guy William Jame's sister, Joyce James, might have been.) Fortunately, the site would not load in Firefox. Saved me quite a bit of typing. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From mike at lamrim.org.uk Wed Jan 7 05:19:49 2009 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:19:49 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> Message-ID: <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> Jamie Hubbard writes >this test takes too much time--and >can you believe that you have to pay *money* to waste more time? > >Try this instead-- you just paste in something you have written and >presto! Analysis! This is like a consultant who asks you for information and wants payment to give it back to you. Fascinating as such things may be (belief tests, enneagrams and so on), they could lead to either insight or labelling. I suspect it tends to be the latter. -- Metta Mike Austin From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 06:03:43 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 14:03:43 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231296979.11011.13.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <1231296979.11011.13.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <635785191.20090107140343@gmail.com> Richard wrote: RH> Which test takes too much time? There are at least two free ones on the RH> Enneagram Institute website, one of which takes less than one minute. RH> There are numerous free enneagram tests on other sites, including one RH> that gives both an enneagram type and a Myers-Briggs. All you have to do RH> is answer about 100 silly questions at http://www.similarminds.com/ there is also a test in vedic numerology: http://www.sanatansociety.org/vedic_astrology_and_numerology/calculate_your_numbers.htm There are some historical studies about numbers and religion, in example "The Mystery of Numbers" Oxford University Press, 1994. Annemarie Schimmel, who was an expert in Islamic mystics. She touch just a little on Buddhism to note a common pattern in the use of numbers across History. In example, there are 8 auspicious Buddhist symbols, the 8 immortals of Taoism, etc.. Tracing that use sometimes until Pythagorean times, there is a common character of "good destiny" in the use of number 8. In Buddhism, at least there is one historical although indirect use of numbers with synchrony purposes in the use of I-Ching (see "The Buddhist I-Ching", T.Cleary, Shambhala). I mention this because when the I-Ching comes to the West, it was used by Leibniz to confirmate his theories about the universe. The relation of the Leibniz's binary code with the I-Ching was added into the western Esotericism by checking the coincidences of the Trigram numbers explanations with Kabbalah. There is a real and historical use of numerology to show meanings in a open or more esoteric way. But, Where is the connection of that use and those explanation of the human behavior in dependence of numbers or stars?. Musa ibn Maymun, who was the more important Kabbalist of medieval times, wrote: "Astrology is an illness, not an science. A shadow's tree containing all type of superstitions". When the ancient experts in these things had such opinion of that use, one can wonder about the convenience of these disciplines. Despite when some astrologers were clever; in example, the astrologer of Siddharta's father made his prophecy saying "He will do this... or the contrary thing!". Even if we admit the truth of some universal synchrony, the History shows how the destiny of the people involved in these beliefs was not better than the rest . One can read the classical heros of ancient times, and how frequently they were people defying destiny and prophecies using his intelligence and bollocks. Buddha and Buddhism teach the detachment of this dream, and it include any of its spectacles as a synchrony of numbers and stars with the world phenomena. The attachment to that synchrony also means to be attached and dragged by this dream. Well, I cannot see the Dharma benefits in synchronizing oneself with stars or numbers. One must be synchronized with Dharma, I think. best regards, From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 7 08:10:00 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 08:10:00 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> Message-ID: <1231341001.6566.11.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 12:19 +0000, Mike Austin wrote: > Fascinating as such things may be (belief tests, > enneagrams and so on), they could lead to either insight or labelling. I > suspect it tends to be the latter. As in the case of a letter opener that can be used to open a letter or stab someone through the eye, the use to which an enneagram type is put depends entirely on the user. There is a danger, acknowledged in all the literature, that someone will stop at the stage of applying labels and, worse, will start using them to makes excuses for oneself or assess blame. "I can't get along with Schmidt because he is a Seven and I am a One." "I can't help being judgemental. I'm a One." Where any typology can be useful is if it enables one to identify patterns of frequently repeated counterproductive behavior and to "catch oneself in the act" (as Riso and Hudson like to say). Used in this way, a personality typology can be another tool in one's toolkit for practicing mindfulness effectively. The enneagram in itself is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for insight. Most people do without it very well. Some people benefit from it. For those who think they might be able to use it well, it is there to be used. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 7 08:16:29 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 08:16:29 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <635785191.20090107140343@gmail.com> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <1231296979.11011.13.camel@localhost> <635785191.20090107140343@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1231341389.6566.18.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 14:03 +0100, Vicente Gonzalez wrote: > there is also a test in vedic numerology: > http://www.sanatansociety.org/vedic_astrology_and_numerology/calculate_your_numbers.htm Alas, I have no interest in astrology, numerology or tarot cards, except to amuse myself by making fun of those who do have an interest in them. Unfortunately, I am trying to get over the bad habit of making fun of idiots, even within the privacy of my own thoughts. If I utterly fail to kick the ridicule habit, I'll make sure to click on the Satan Society website you have kindly provided. -- Richard From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 7 08:20:25 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 08:20:25 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> Message-ID: <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> Well, I took the little test, and I share Mike's concern. Back in the 1940s, the psychologist William Herbert Sheldon created another mind/body classification of so-called somatotypes, the ecto-, endo-, and mesomorphs, that associated body types with temperaments. This system became a pop party game, but soon lost credibility. A google search on it just now produced a whole bunch of body building websites, so I guess it has moved into that realm. Somatotyping, like enneagramography, no doubt leads to un-insightful labeling. Vicente is right--the practice of dharma doesn't need personality typing. While some people find it to be useful in helping them toward insight, it might also be misguiding. And, one can fiddle around with the questionnaire. Has any psychoanalyst or psychiatrist written a critique of the enneagram system? There's another issue: a psychoanalyst like Sudhir Kakar of India, has shown that Indian personality/temperament is quite different from what we find in the USA, according to his clinical practice and research, anyway. So if we find that enneatypes "work" here in the US, how would enneatypes work in the various Asian contexts, Buddhist or otherwise? Probably wouldn't. Joanna -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Mike Austin Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 5:20 AM To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism This is like a consultant who asks you for information and wants payment to give it back to you. Fascinating as such things may be (belief tests, enneagrams and so on), they could lead to either insight or labelling. I suspect it tends to be the latter. -- Metta Mike Austin _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Wed Jan 7 09:30:23 2009 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 08:30:23 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: You may want examine a tradition in the enneagram that uses a questionnaire merely as a starting place. The true work is done in groups where skillfully led panels of self-identified types discuss their experience. Individuals come to see themselves as a certain type because they've come to know that about themselves through the process of listening and identifying. As a skilled dharma teacher might, enneagram teachers are capable of helping individuals appreciate where they may be not seeing clearly and assist them to clarify the self-identification process. As others have said. You can jack around with any instrument, and on any given day, you're more or less likely to have a different view of yourself. Enneagram awareness is built over time, not garnered quickly at the tip of a pencil....much as most dharma practitioners don't find their seat for some period of practice.s Dr. David Daniels of Stanford at http://www.enneagramworldwide.com/ has done some of the work I think scholars here may appreciate. Again, I see over and over in this extended thread, the idea that 'typing' is a parlor game. Only if thats what you want it to be. Its a useful tool if you have a use for it. If not, leave it in the bag until you're ready. Timothy Smith Wheelwright Associates www.wheelwrightassoc.com > > > Vicente is right--the practice of dharma doesn't need personality > typing. While some people find it to be useful in helping them > toward insight, it might also be misguiding. And, one can fiddle > around with the questionnaire. Has any psychoanalyst or > psychiatrist written a critique of the enneagram system? > > ____________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 7 09:54:03 2009 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:54:03 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> jkirk schreef: > Well, I took the little test, and I share Mike's concern. > > Back in the 1940s, the psychologist William Herbert Sheldon > created another mind/body classification of so-called > somatotypes, the ecto-, endo-, and mesomorphs, that associated > body types with temperaments. This system became a pop party > game, but soon lost credibility. A google search on it just now > produced a whole bunch of body building websites, so I guess it > has moved into that realm. Somatotyping, like enneagramography, > no doubt leads to un-insightful labeling. > > Vicente is right--the practice of dharma doesn't need personality > typing. While some people find it to be useful in helping them > toward insight, it might also be misguiding. And, one can fiddle > around with the questionnaire. Has any psychoanalyst or > psychiatrist written a critique of the enneagram system? > > There's another issue: a psychoanalyst like Sudhir Kakar of > India, has shown that Indian personality/temperament is quite > different from what we find in the USA, according to his clinical > practice and research, anyway. So if we find that enneatypes > "work" here in the US, how would enneatypes work in the various > Asian contexts, Buddhist or otherwise? Probably wouldn't. > > Joanna > I don't mind people spending time and money on personality typing, I personally don't see any use of it and I'm convinced it's value is more in imagebuilding than personal development. On this side of the ocean a scientist who's into enneagrams or scientology or astrology (Chinese, Tibetan or western) is not taken very seriously. Popper has still to much influence. I remember professor Vetter's visible irritation when students with this kind of bias visited his lectures. You might want to look at http://skepdic.com/enneagr.html Buddhists who value this kind of thing are Tibetan lamas. I know that Norbu Rche and Sogyal Rche are very much into astrology and it cannot be difficult to compose some sort of theory that can be used as an interface between this and enneagrams. Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Jan 7 11:26:10 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 11:26:10 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1231352771.8427.68.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 08:20 -0700, jkirk wrote: > Back in the 1940s, the psychologist William Herbert Sheldon > created another mind/body classification of so-called > somatotypes, the ecto-, endo-, and mesomorphs, that associated > body types with temperaments. This system became a pop party > game, but soon lost credibility. A google search on it just now > produced a whole bunch of body building websites, so I guess it > has moved into that realm. About five years ago, just for the fun of it, I took a course designed to teach people to be physical trainers. There was a lot in that course on somatotypes and the kinds of physical exercise and diet appropriate for each. It has turned out to be a fairly helpful tool in physical training. Like any tool, of course, it is only a heuristic. If one approaches somatotypology (or enneagram personality typology) in approximately the same way a m?dhdyamika approaches Buddhism, there is not much danger. The potential danger comes when one accepts any of these heuristic tools in the manner that a Fundamentalist approaches the Bible. During this past semester I read through Dharmak?rti's critique of ?yurvedic theory. The ?yurvedic folks of his generation had a notion that one's humors influenced (or perhaps even determined) one's bodily nature and one's mentality. People with a preponderance of wind (v?ta) were supposed to be thin and dry-skinned physically and prone to delusions (moha) temperamentally. People with a preponderance of phlegm (kapha) were supposed to tend to excess weight and oily skin physiologically and were prone to passion (r?ga) temperamentally. People with a lot of bile (pitta) were said to be muscular and energetic and prone to anger and hatred (dve?a). The root causes of du?kha were meant to be addressed by following a balanced diet and exercise routine. Dharmak?rti, of course, would have none of this ?yurvedic theory. He observed that one finds plenty of thin and dry-skinned people who are full of anger and contempt, and one can find plenty of "full-figured" people who are prone to delusions. There is, in other, words, no mapping of physiological types to temperament. If one is in the realm of psychology, argued Dharmak?rti, one should look at the psychological (that is, karmic) causes of psychological states, not to body chemistry. > Somatotyping, like enneagramography, > no doubt leads to un-insightful labeling. I doubt that any typology necessarily leads to labeling that lacks insight, but I supposed if anything is used by a person who lacks insight, the result is likely to be non-insightful. > Vicente is right--the practice of dharma doesn't need personality > typing. That is beyond dispute. That notwithstanding, quite a number of dharma teachers over the ages have found it useful to used personality typing to help people find the most productive practices for their temperament. Upatissa and Buddhaghosa both observed that behavior tends to come in clusters. People who dress in certain ways are likely to eat in certain ways and to have certain kinds of work habits and certain ways of speaking to others. By studying behavior, they claimed, one can make a pretty good guess at which dhammas are at work "under the hood". If one can make an educated guess about a student's mentality, one can give them practices that work for them and avoid giving them practices that could actually make them worse. (Upatissa observes, just to give two examples, that a person prone to anger should be given well-lighted accommodations with lots of pretty-colored flowers to look at and should avoid such practices as gazing at decomposing corpses or awareness of the loathsomeness of food, while a person prone to sensuality should be given drab accomodations and meditative practices that focus on unpleasantness and impermanence.) > And, one can fiddle > around with the questionnaire. But why would one want to do that? The point of the questionnaire is to help one cultivate the habit of being honest in one's observations about one's own mentality. It is fully recognized that most people are not fully honest with themselves and therefore may misidentify their type. For this reason, it is recommended that one work with other people who will help one be honest in the complicated task of self-appraisal (which kind reminds me of the notion of a sangha). > Has any psychoanalyst or > psychiatrist written a critique of the enneagram system? There is not a lot of substance to the enneagram system itself. It is really just a bare-bones schema that has to be filled with content. Various psychologists and spiritual directors fill the enneagram schema with different contents. Jesuits, for example, associate the points of the enneagram with the nine cardinal sins written about by Evagrios and other of the desert fathers. Some Buddhists have filled the enneagram with a more Buddhist content, associating each of the points with a different p?ramit? (perfection of virtue). Some Jungian psychotherapists use the enneagram as a tool for playing around with archetypes of the collective unconscious. The type of questionnaire a person develops depends entirely on how one he or she plans to use the enneagram. And of course one need not use a questionnaire at all. There are other (and I would say probably much better) ways of learning what personality type one has; it's just that Americans seem to like questionnaires. > There's another issue: a psychoanalyst like Sudhir Kakar of > India, has shown that Indian personality/temperament is quite > different from what we find in the USA, according to his clinical > practice and research, anyway. So if we find that enneatypes > "work" here in the US, how would enneatypes work in the various > Asian contexts, Buddhist or otherwise? Probably wouldn't. I have a feeling the underlying typology could be used in almost any culture, but questionnaires are bound to be specific to a given culture. In other words, I am fairly sure there are plenty of, say, Enneatype Ones in India, but I doubt very much that a questionnaire designed in the United States would be of much use in helping an Indian Type One to correctly identify her type. Richard Rohr, a Franciscan who studied the enneagram under Jesuit spiritual directors, likes to associate different countries with different types, just to help give a sense of how people tend to stereotype both groups of people and individuals. He uses a common stereotypical view of Mexico as an example of an Enneatype Nine culture: laid back, casual, friendly, open-hearted and consistently willing to put things off until some other day. The stereotypical view of the USA serves as the image for Enneatype Three: obsessed with success, contemptuous of failure, driven to seek excellence, prone to self-adulation, willing to engage in deceit in order to try to bolster an image of success. (What else would one expect of a country that Mitt Romney repeatedly called, to the great embarrassment of many of us non-Three Americans, the greatest nation in the history of the human race.) Now of course if all one does is say, "Yup, Amerricuns are hard-working folks who love to succeed, and Mexicans are amiable but lazy folks who mostly want to take jobs away from Amerricuns," nothing much of value has been achieved. But if one happens to live in the United States and realizes that some of that Enneatype Three drivenness manages to work its way into the mentality of almost everyone who lives in the USA, just because it's in the drinking water, then one can begin to work with that by being a little more mindful of it. There are thousands of ways of being more mindful. The enneagram can be one of those thousands of ways for some people. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Wed Jan 7 16:20:12 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:20:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism Message-ID: <755604.75659.qm@web54603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I didn't know Sheldon had lost credibility--if he did, that's too bad.? Aldous Huxley once praised Sheldon for his ecto-, endo-, and mesomorphic typing (or cerebro-, viscero- and somatotonic) typologies.? Huxley said it corresponded nicely with the Hindu typology of gnana, bhakti and karma margas.? I couldn't agree more.? Guess I'm out of date.? The enneagram may be good for other folks, but I find it cumbersome and confusing.? I think I'll stick to Myers-Briggs. ? Katherine INFJ ? ? ? ? From robedd at islandia.is Wed Jan 7 19:44:24 2009 From: robedd at islandia.is (Dhammanando Bhikkhu) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 02:44:24 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism Message-ID: Richard Hayes: > Upatissa and Buddhaghosa both observed that behavior tends > to come in clusters. People who dress in certain ways are > likely to eat in certain ways and to have certain kinds of > work habits and certain ways of speaking to others. By > studying behavior, they claimed, one can make a pretty good > guess at which dhammas are at work "under the hood". That's not quite correct in the case of Buddhaghosa. Though he accepted the sixfold classification of character types and the need to prescribe meditation themes in accordance with these, he held that a pupil's type could be ascertained only by mind-reading or by interviewing him, and was sceptical about the method of diagnosis based on observing the pupil's behaviour. After describing it at some length, he concludes: "However, these directions for recognizing the temperaments have not been handed down in their entirety in either the texts or the commentaries; they are only expressed according to the opinions of teachers and cannot therefore be treated as authentic. For even those of hating termperament can exhibit postures, etc., ascribed to the greedy temperament when they try diligently. And postures, etc., never arise with distinct characteristics in a person of mixed temperament. Only such directions for recognizing temperament as are given in the commentaries should be treated as authentic; for this is said: 'A teacher who has acquired penetration of minds will know the temperament and will explain a meditation subject accordingly; one who has not should question the pupil.' Therefore it is by penetration of minds or by questioning the person, that it can be known whether he is one of greedy temperament or one of those beginning with hating temperament." (_Path of Purification_ III 96) It's remarkable how many readers of the Visuddhimagga overlook this passage. There have even been books published on meditation (authored by moha-caritas, presumably) detailing the Visuddhimagga's methods of diagnosis-by-observation as if they were something that Buddhaghosa wholeheartedly approved. Best wishes, Dhammanando _________ dhammawheel.com From franz at mind2mind.net Thu Jan 8 11:52:42 2009 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:52:42 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Maylie Scott Roshi In-Reply-To: References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> <1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost> Message-ID: Dear Piya et al., Thank you, Piya, for the stories of Maylie. I can see you among the foxgloves. My father died, last year, of metastasized colon cancer, just as I learned Maylie did when I followed the second link you provided . So, reading the story of her last weeks and the rituals of her funeral brought tears. But it also brought perspective. Here are the last words of Maylie's last dharma talk: > I'd like to end by reading a short poem by Jane Hirshfield called > "True." > > It is foolish to let a young Redwood grow next to a house. > Even in this one lifetime, you will have to choose. > That great calm being, this clutter of soup, pots and books. > Already the first branchtips brush at the window. > Softly, calmly, immensity taps at your life. Franz From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 8 12:04:20 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:04:20 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1231441461.5839.29.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2009-01-08 at 02:44 +0000, Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > Though he [Buddhaghosa] accepted the > sixfold classification of character types and the need to prescribe meditation > themes in accordance with these, he held that a pupil's type could be > ascertained only by mind-reading or by interviewing him, and was sceptical > about the method of diagnosis based on observing the pupil's behaviour. Good to hear from you again, Bhante. Yes, I do recall Buddhaghosa's skepticism on this matter, but I thought I might be able to get away with an oversimplified account of his position. I still remember laughing heartily the first time I read the relevant passage in the Visuddhimaggo. He offers a fairly detailed description of behaviours that might be used to indicate a mentality and then concludes by saying that by far the best method of knowing what someone's mentality is is just to ask him. (The possibility of self-deception aside, I was delighted by the simplicity of this approach. Want to know something about someone? Just ask.) In his discussions of mentality and behaviour, my dearly irritating friend Dharmak?rti holds the position that there is a many-one relationship between mentalities and behaviour; that is, many different mentalities can result in pretty much the same behaviour. That means that it is impossible to use behaviour as an indicator of mentality. A criminal gifted at lying and a truly innocent man will both say "I am innocent." A buddha and a charlatan will both say "I am dispassionate" and appear to act dispassionately whenever someone is watching. When all one has is the behaviour, concludes Dharmak?rti, one knows nothing about the contours of the mentality of the person doing the behaving. Perhaps he had been reading Buddhaghosa before he wrote those passages. Although I doubt that Riso and Hudson had read either Buddhaghosa or Dharmak?rti, they say in their book The Wisdom of the Enneagram that it is folly (as well as pointless) to try to assess another's enneagram type. It is not the way one behaves that determines the type, but the underlying mentality. And only a person who has a mentality knows what his mentality is. Or (as the Upanishads say), perhaps even he does not know. There is the rather awkward factor of self-deception to contend with. And I reckon that just about everybody but thee and me is prone to some degree of self-deception, eh? -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 8 12:31:45 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:31:45 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231352771.8427.68.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net><0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <1231352771.8427.68.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <89939387DD5D46C4BCC6D8C72FA670E2@OPTIPLEX> "..........The stereotypical view of the USA serves as the image for Enneatype Three: obsessed with success, contemptuous of failure, driven to seek excellence, prone to self-adulation, willing to engage in deceit in order to try to bolster an image of success. (What else would one expect of a country that Mitt Romney repeatedly called, to the great embarrassment of many of us non-Three Americans, the greatest nation in the history of the human race.) "................... Hmmm---however, Enneatype 3 doesn't deal with the other mass Amurrikan phenomenon, the TV-beerslugging couch potato. He too (yes, I said he--the women are doing other things, whilst going along with hubby), usually agrees with the Mitt Romney view of the country, not because of the drinking water but because of the watching water--teevee, a main US source for spiritual comfort. When not watching sports, one can watch health or soul hucksters. Cheers, Joanna ================================= Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:26 AM ....... The stereotypical view of the USA serves as the image for Enneatype Three: obsessed with success, contemptuous of failure, driven to seek excellence, prone to self-adulation, willing to engage in deceit in order to try to bolster an image of success. (What else would one expect of a country that Mitt Romney repeatedly called, to the great embarrassment of many of us non-Three Americans, the greatest nation in the history of the human race.) Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 8 12:51:04 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:51:04 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <89939387DD5D46C4BCC6D8C72FA670E2@OPTIPLEX> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <1231352771.8427.68.camel@localhost> <89939387DD5D46C4BCC6D8C72FA670E2@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1231444265.5839.50.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2009-01-08 at 12:31 -0700, jkirk wrote: > Hmmm---however, Enneatype 3 doesn't deal with the other mass > Amurrikan phenomenon, the TV-beerslugging couch potato. The couch potato is usually foaming at the mouth in wild anticipation of his favorite sports team WINNING. The adoration of victors (and the correlative contempt of losers) is the mark of a Three and of almost all American males (except for those who subscribe to buddha-l---we carefully screen all sport fans out). When I think of how many times we Americans had to listen to John McCain accusing Barack Obama of favoring a policy of "waving the white flag of surrender" or how many times various people in the Bush administration said that the US could leave Iraq only when victory had been assured, I think Rohr's identification of the USA and Israel as predominately Three cultures is not too wide of the mark. And when I note that my university pays the football coach every year more than he pays the entire thirteen-faculty-member philosophy department so that our university can WIN at football (as if anyone gives a rat's tail who wins a bloody football game), I think it's possible that our education system is mostly a factory for cranking out success-addicted Threes. The cardinal sin to which Threes are prone is said to be deceptiveness. Richard Rohr gives the example of the American military naming its most deadly attack missile "The Peacemaker". (Rohr thinks that is deception. But is it? How better to make it peaceful than to kill everything alive?) -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 8 14:31:47 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 14:31:47 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231444265.5839.50.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net><0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX><1231352771.8427.68.camel@localhost><89939387DD5D46C4BCC6D8C72FA670E2@OPTIPLEX> <1231444265.5839.50.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <926133CDB91E4A13A59083ED9EBA5D25@OPTIPLEX> JK: > Hmmm---however, Enneatype 3 doesn't deal with the other mass Amurrikan > phenomenon, the TV-beerslugging couch potato. RH: >The couch potato is usually foaming at the mouth in wild anticipation of his favorite sports team WINNING. The adoration of victors (and the correlative contempt of losers) is the mark of a Three and of almost all American males (except for those who subscribe to buddha-l---we carefully screen all sport fans out). JK: Hmm again---I had to laugh at my naivete about couch potatoes not being 3s. It's because when I watch a game (some college football only, not all--a hangover from youth), I'm rootin' for the underdog. RH: >When I think of how many times we Americans had to listen to John McCain accusing Barack Obama of favoring a policy of "waving the white flag of surrender" or how many times various people in the Bush administration said that the US could leave Iraq only when victory had been assured, I think Rohr's identification of the USA and Israel as predominately Three cultures is not too wide of the mark. ................... >The cardinal sin to which Threes are prone is said to be deceptiveness. Richard Rohr gives the example of the American military naming its most deadly attack missile "The Peacemaker". (Rohr thinks that is deception. But is it? How better to make it peaceful than to kill everything alive?) JK: Ah yes---This does remind me that when India exploded their first trial nuclear bomb, the coded intentionally deceptive report to Indira Gandhi was, "Buddha smiled." Maybe the people who rise to rulership anywhere are 3s? Thinking of kings in the suttas, Ajaatasattu, who wanted to wipe out the Vajjians and take over their lands, comes to mind. Not-in-any-suttas Cheney/Bush come to mind. Joanna From dharmafarer at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 18:02:44 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 09:02:44 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Maylie Scott Roshi In-Reply-To: References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> <1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost> Message-ID: Thanks for the memories, Franz. My one regret while in California: I have not seen the redwoods live. (I remember writing a poem about that experience--now I have to look where I have stashed it.) Anyways [that northern Californian], that's the cost for frequenting the caverns of the UCB libraries. I should have responded at "the first branchtips" when they brushed at my window. Poems are second best when you missed the direct experience. Yet they have a magic of their own. Maylie gave me a copy of Rainer Maria Rilke's "Duino Elegies" (tr Stephen Mitchell) in 1994 when I left Berkeley for home (Malaysia then). With metta, Piya Tan On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 2:52 AM, Franz Metcalf wrote: > Dear Piya et al., > > Thank you, Piya, for the stories of Maylie. I can see you among the > foxgloves. > > My father died, last year, of metastasized colon cancer, just as I > learned Maylie did when I followed the second link you provided < > http://www.arcatazengroup.org/maylie.php > >. So, reading the story of her last weeks and the rituals of her > funeral brought tears. But it also brought perspective. Here are the > last words of Maylie's last dharma talk: > > > I'd like to end by reading a short poem by Jane Hirshfield called > > "True." > > > > It is foolish to let a young Redwood grow next to a house. > > Even in this one lifetime, you will have to choose. > > That great calm being, this clutter of soup, pots and books. > > Already the first branchtips brush at the window. > > Softly, calmly, immensity taps at your life. > > Franz > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 18:19:32 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 02:19:32 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1049971131.20090109021932@gmail.com> D. Bikkhu wrote: DB> It's remarkable how many readers of the Visuddhimagga overlook this passage. DB> There have even been books published on meditation (authored by moha-caritas, DB> presumably) detailing the Visuddhimagga's methods of diagnosis-by-observation DB> as if they were something that Buddhaghosa wholeheartedly approved. there is a graphical schema of Visuddhimagga methods and types inside "Buddhist Scriptures", E.Conze, 1959, which was a very popular book. I think the Penguin Editorial substitute it for a different recompilation made by Donald S. Lopez using the same title. Although the Conze's selection was better, I think. Now it seems the book is published again and still maintain the 6 position in the Amazon's sacred writings best-sellers: http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/15755351/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_b_1_4_last The passage you have cited is absent in the Conze version. You can see these schemas in this version on-line (search for "4. The Six Types Of Persons" ): http://www.lojajinarajadasa.com/7.3.g.BuddhistScriptures.html#02 best regards, From pvera at health.usf.edu Thu Jan 8 19:26:06 2009 From: pvera at health.usf.edu (Vera, Pedro L.) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 21:26:06 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231444265.5839.50.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <1231352771.8427.68.camel@localhost> <89939387DD5D46C4BCC6D8C72FA670E2@OPTIPLEX>, <1231444265.5839.50.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <33C44E04D25FE54C906EB61FBAA4B9CD7339189F54@MAILSERVER3.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu> On Thu, 2009-01-08 at 12:31 -0700, jkirk wrote: > Hmmm---however, Enneatype 3 doesn't deal with the other mass > Amurrikan phenomenon, the TV-beerslugging couch potato. And Richard replied: >The couch potato is usually foaming at the mouth in wild anticipation of >his favorite sports team WINNING. The adoration of victors (and the >correlative contempt of losers) is the mark of a Three and of almost all >American males (except for those who subscribe to buddha-l---we >carefully screen all sport fans out). Richard, I think this phenomenon hardly is limited to American males. In fact, there is plenty of "soccermania" in Europe (does it feed off males with limited opportunities? maybe). While I agree that the attitude seems prevalent in males and probably originates in evolutionary processes, we can trace fascination with sports to the Greeks and certainly bloody sporting events were perfected by the Romans and they could not even play ice hockey!! > And when I note that my university >pays the football coach every year more than he pays the entire >thirteen-faculty-member philosophy department so that our university can >WIN at football (as if anyone gives a rat's tail who wins a bloody >football game), I think it's possible that our education system is >mostly a factory for cranking out success-addicted Threes. The enneagram stuff I don't know about (and I havent kept up with the thread) but for a long time I've advocated turning college football teams into professional teams and dropping the pretense that the students are in school for an education. That would seem to work best for all?including the alumni who contribute heavily to the sports programs primarily, and to the schools, secondarily, based on the winning seasons of the teams). Best regards, Pedro From gouin.me at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 02:46:46 2009 From: gouin.me at gmail.com (Margaret Gouin) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 10:46:46 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231444265.5839.50.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <1231352771.8427.68.camel@localhost> <89939387DD5D46C4BCC6D8C72FA670E2@OPTIPLEX> <1231444265.5839.50.camel@localhost> Message-ID: But even football can lead to the mind opening: http://www.theonion.com/content/video/pre_game_coin_toss_makes Margaret 2009/1/8 Richard Hayes > > And when I note that my university > pays the football coach every year more than he pays the entire > thirteen-faculty-member philosophy department so that our university can > WIN at football (as if anyone gives a rat's tail who wins a bloody > football game), I think it's possible that our education system is > mostly a factory for cranking out success-addicted Threes. > > -- > Richard Hayes > Department of Philosophy > University of New Mexico > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 9 10:28:14 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 10:28:14 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] The American New England Transcendentalists' retreat--Follensby Pond Message-ID: <51DE4143895143318733F22E3F682DAB@OPTIPLEX> http://www.nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/states/newyork/pre serves/art25874.html "Today, thanks to the dedication and foresight of property owner John S. McCormick Jr. and his late wife 'Bird,' the 14,600-acre forest, including Follensby Pond, will remain protected for the benefit of current and future generations." In the US, nature was never far from mental cultivation concerns. Many of us, I suspect, had our first experiences of truth beyond the conventional while "communing with nature," as we used to say--hiking and camping in forests and meadows, deserts and mountains. Now, one more iconic American retreat has been preserved from timber barons and themeparking. Joanna From jmp at peavler.org Fri Jan 9 11:08:44 2009 From: jmp at peavler.org (Jim Peavler) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 11:08:44 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231444265.5839.50.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <1231352771.8427.68.camel@localhost> <89939387DD5D46C4BCC6D8C72FA670E2@OPTIPLEX> <1231444265.5839.50.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <0BE4124C-1654-48AA-A7EC-6C32F722B115@peavler.org> On Jan 8, 2009, at 12:51 PM, Richard Hayes wrote: > On Thu, 2009-01-08 at 12:31 -0700, jkirk wrote: > >> Hmmm---however, Enneatype 3 doesn't deal with the other mass >> Amurrikan phenomenon, the TV-beerslugging couch potato. > > The couch potato is usually foaming at the mouth in wild > anticipation of > his favorite sports team WINNING. The adoration of victors (and the > correlative contempt of losers) is the mark of a Three and of almost > all > American males (except for those who subscribe to buddha-l---we > carefully screen all sport fans out). Yeah! Especially anyone who was stupid enough to root for those looser Sooners AGAIN! Jim Peavler jmp at peavler.org From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 9 12:00:39 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 12:00:39 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net><0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I don't mind people spending time and money on personality typing, I personally don't see any use of it and I'm convinced it's value is more in imagebuilding than personal development. On this side of the ocean a scientist who's into enneagrams or scientology or astrology (Chinese, Tibetan or western) is not taken very seriously. Popper has still to much influence. I remember professor Vetter's visible irritation when students with this kind of bias visited his lectures. You might want to look at http://skepdic.com/enneagr.html Buddhists who value this kind of thing are Tibetan lamas. I know that Norbu Rche and Sogyal Rche are very much into astrology and it cannot be difficult to compose some sort of theory that can be used as an interface between this and enneagrams. Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl ==================== Hi Erik Thanks for posting that skeptic link. Just looked at it and see that it will take some time to read through, so later. New Agery, which I luckily have been on the margins of, seems to me to have been (or still is, if it's still viable) an imperialistic invasion of people's urgent needs for solace and of their hunger for insights. Like imperialism and most religions (which historically accompanied imperialism), it favors elaborate hierarchies. Am against imperialism. Cheers, Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 17:55:31 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:55:31 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net><0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> jkirk wrote: j> You might want to look at http://skepdic.com/enneagr.html j> Buddhists who value this kind of thing are Tibetan lamas. thanks so much for the link. Some names appearing in that text are quite popular in the Spanish speaking world. Probably the Enneagram it's just a remake of kabbalistic stuff. It is not strange that such thing comes from South America. There is an important amount of new-age ideas arising in that area from 70's. From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 9 18:32:25 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 18:32:25 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu><+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net><0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX><4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry--Erik Hoogscarspel gets credit for posting this link. Joanna K. ======================== jkirk wrote: j> You might want to look at http://skepdic.com/enneagr.html Buddhists j> who value this kind of thing are Tibetan lamas. Thanks so much for the link. Some names appearing in that text are quite popular in the Spanish speaking world. Probably the Enneagram it's just a remake of kabbalistic stuff. It is not strange that such thing comes from South America. There is an important amount of new-age ideas arising in that area from 70's..[more] From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 10 09:48:57 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:48:57 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] The American New England Transcendentalists' retreat--Follensby Pond In-Reply-To: <51DE4143895143318733F22E3F682DAB@OPTIPLEX> References: <51DE4143895143318733F22E3F682DAB@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1231606137.6624.22.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2009-01-09 at 10:28 -0700, jkirk wrote: > In the US, nature was never far from mental cultivation concerns. > Many of us, I suspect, had our first experiences of truth beyond > the conventional while "communing with nature," as we used to > say--hiking and camping in forests and meadows, deserts and > mountains. Normally (as long-time denizens of buddha-l may recall) I fulminate against the word "spirituality," which has often seemed to me a word in a desperate and mostly unsuccessful search for a meaning. That notwithstanding, I have been participating in a Quaker "spiritual deepening" group for the past five months. (Why, I wonder, are there no spiritual enshallowment groups?) Something that has emerged in discussions is that a good many Quakers consider themselves to be atheist (especially if God is understood as somebody who appears as a burning bush or a cloud hovering over Israelites on long camping trips, thrusts commandments carved on stone tablets into the hands of reluctant prophets, cheers the Israelites on in genocidal campaigns against Canaanites, and stomps on human grapes wrathfully). But among the self-proclaimed atheistic Quakers one tends to find a very deep love of nature, just of the kind you report. Going on hikes in relatively unpopulated areas and sitting quietly among the birds and spiders and coyotes is how they recharge their spiritual batteries. Having just spent a wonderful day at the Bosque del Apache wildlife preserve with my wife and our dog, and feeling completely energized by the hundreds of thousands of snow geese and sand hill cranes and a few great blue herons and red-shouldered hawks, I would have to count myself among the nature mystics in the Quaker (and Buddhist) fold. One of the first shocks I had as a young man still experiencing the first stages of a love affair with the teachings of Gautama was an article I read making the observation that Buddhists in India tended to see nature as dangerous and threatening, not at all the sort of thing a person would want to have much to do with. A nature lover for as long as I can remember, I wondered whether I could ever get serious about a religion that sees nature as something to take refuge from rather than as something to go for refuge to. Seeing nature as a paradigm of danger rather than as a source of nourishment and rejuvenation seems so, well, Republican! -- Richard Hayes From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 10 09:59:09 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:59:09 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1231606750.6624.30.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2009-01-09 at 12:00 -0700, jkirk wrote: > Thanks for posting that skeptic link. Just looked at it and see > that it will take some time to read through, so later. New Agery, > which I luckily have been on the margins of, seems to me to have > been (or still is, if it's still viable) an imperialistic > invasion of people's urgent needs for solace and of their hunger > for insights. Like imperialism and most religions (which > historically accompanied imperialism), it favors elaborate > hierarchies. I have no idea what New Age religion is supposed to be. As far as I can tell it is a highly informal movement of the kinds of people who used to be called seekers. Such people tend to be suspicious and organized religion and deeply allergic to any kind of hierarchy. I've never actually know anyone who claimed to New Age in orientation, but I have known many Christians and Buddhists who have been strongly contemptuous of what they call New Age spirituality. When I ask them for a more concrete account of what exactly it is they fear in what they call New Age spirituality, they usually cite such things as individualism and disrespect for authority and tradition. Hell, I thought that was called being an INFP. -- Richard Hayes From curt at cola.iges.org Sat Jan 10 10:43:38 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 12:43:38 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231606750.6624.30.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1231606750.6624.30.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4968DE4A.1020106@cola.iges.org> Richard Hayes wrote: > I have no idea what New Age religion is supposed to be. Just five minutes ago I picked up and started reading "Secular Spirituality: Reincarnation and Spiritism in Nineteenth Century France" by Lynn L. Sharp. Spiritism preceded Spiritualism which preceded Theosophy. Along the way there were also Mesmerism, Swedenborgianism and of course even before those there was Rosicrucianism, Freemasonry, etc. Quietism, Quakerism, Shakerism and Pacifism also spring up from this same fertile ground - and all these roots are intertwined. "New Age religion" is simply what religion looks like when people are allowed to think whatever they please. Much of it is unedifying in the extreme, but the messiness of spiritual anarchism is much to be preferred over the alternatives proposed by those who like their spiritual trains to run on time. For the moment I have decided to drop everything else and just read Lynn Sharp's fascinating book, along with Gregory Evans Dowd's "A Spirited Resistance: The North American Indian Struggle for Unity, 1745-1815". "Secular Spirituality" by Lynn Sharp at googlebooks: http://tinyurl.com/8g4gpb "Spirited Resistance" by Gregory Evans Dowd at amazon: http://tinyurl.com/74betf "Birth, death, rebirth and progress without end, this is the law." Allan Kardec (1804-1869) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Kardec Curt From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 10 10:45:41 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:45:41 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2009-01-10 at 01:55 +0100, Vicente Gonzalez wrote: > thanks so much for the link. Some names appearing in that text are > quite popular in the Spanish speaking world. Probably the Enneagram > it's just a remake of kabbalistic stuff. It is not strange that such > thing comes from South America. There is an important amount of > new-age ideas arising in that area from 70's. There is an informal logical fallacy known as the genetic fallacy. It consists in dismissing something because of its origins. The reason it is fallacious, of course, is that things tend to evolve after they are originated, and evolution sometimes brings improvements. The enneagram of personality is something that has evolved considerably during the past thirty years or so. So even if the diagram of the enneagram of personality was (as some have claimed) originally largely the product of one Bolivian's peyote-induced visions, so much has happened since the 1970s that the enneagram in its current form deserves to be examined on its own merits. To say it more accurately, each of the many enneagram-based typologies of personality deserves to be examined as they now are. The enneagram of personality that Riso and Hudson discuss, especially in their book The Wisdom of the Enneagram, incorporates some of Gurdjieff's teachings on personality types, a certain amount of Myers-Briggs typology and underlying Jungian theory of personality, a basic framework of Karen Horney's discussions of motivations, quite a bit of George Vaillant's work on defense mechanisms, and a very light touch of Ken Wilber's work. Riso and Hudson also mention, mostly by way of passing reference, the discussion of cardinal sins by some of the desert fathers and the root causes of du?kha as taught in Buddhism. Riso and Hudson make the claim that human beings at their very best are nurturing, honest, compassionate, curious, trusting, cheerful, courageous, peaceful and healing. The nine personality types, they say, are ways of failing to be fully human in those ways. As they like to put it, "When you fail to show up, your personality type shows up instead." Our personality is what we send to work or to a party when we don't feel like going as ourselves. (It's worth remembering that "persona" comes from the Greek for a mask worn by an actor in a tragedy or comedy.) So for Riso and Hudson, study of the enneagram is a method one can use to gain insight into the specific ways he or she fails to manifest the best of being human. It's interesting that when Richard Rohr, a Franciscan, presents the enneagram of personality as a tool in Christian contemplative work, he claims that Christ did not have a enneagrammatic personality type. In current enneagram theory, personality is a type of failure. Perfected beings do not have personalities. I can very easily imagine a Buddhist wanting to insist that buddhas, being arhants, have no personality types. They do not fit on the enneagram any longer. One might say that the sole purpose of studying where one fits in the enneagram typology is to find out how not to fit within the enneagram typology any more. Can one ever really transcend personality? Perhaps not, but one can at least move in that general direction. (My own conviction is that no one has ever been a buddha, but it is still worthwhile to try to move in the general direction of being as much like a buddha as one can.) > Probably that people made the same thing, and today the Enneagram is > passing into psychotherapy. In her book on the Enneagram, Helen Palmer has an appendix with data from various empirical studies done by psychologists. She seems to be especially interested in finding correlations between enneagram tyypology and the Myers-Briggs Type Index and several other psychological persoanlity typologies. It may be worth noting that Riso and Hudson and Helen Palmer present the enneagram almost entirely as a tool for better self-understanding (of the sort that Socrates, the Stoics and the academic skeptics would admire). One will find nothing at all in their work that makes the enneagram resemble astrology, numerology, necromancy, geomancy or oneiromancy or anything having to do with the occult or oracles. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Sat Jan 10 10:58:49 2009 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:58:49 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <93E2ADFA-57BD-4E6E-9CF5-59933A3A1CCF@wheelwrightassoc.com> Thanks for stating what should have been obvious here, Richard. Sometimes scholarly skepticism looks a bit like old fashioned prejudice. On Jan 10, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Richard Hayes wrote: >> > There is an informal logical fallacy known as the genetic > fallacy........ > > It may be worth noting that Riso and Hudson and Helen Palmer present > the > enneagram almost entirely as a tool for better self-understanding (of > the sort that Socrates, the Stoics and the academic skeptics would > admire). One will find nothing at all in their work that makes the > enneagram resemble astrology, numerology, necromancy, geomancy or > oneiromancy or anything having to do with the occult or oracles. From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 10 11:39:54 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:39:54 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] The American New EnglandTranscendentalists' retreat--Follensby Pond In-Reply-To: <1231606137.6624.22.camel@localhost> References: <51DE4143895143318733F22E3F682DAB@OPTIPLEX> <1231606137.6624.22.camel@localhost> Message-ID: Having just spent a wonderful day at the Bosque del Apache wildlife preserve with my wife and our dog, and feeling completely energized by the hundreds of thousands of snow geese and sand hill cranes and a few great blue herons and red-shouldered hawks, I would have to count myself among the nature mystics in the Quaker (and Buddhist) fold. One of the first shocks I had as a young man still experiencing the first stages of a love affair with the teachings of Gautama was an article I read making the observation that Buddhists in India tended to see nature as dangerous and threatening, not at all the sort of thing a person would want to have much to do with. A nature lover for as long as I can remember, I wondered whether I could ever get serious about a religion that sees nature as something to take refuge from rather than as something to go for refuge to. Seeing nature as a paradigm of danger rather than as a source of nourishment and rejuvenation seems so, well, Republican! -- Richard Hayes ============== Ah, the immense and wonderful Bosque del Apache nature-preserve. RH: "One of the first shocks I had as a young man still experiencing the first stages of a love affair with the teachings of Gautama was an article I read making the observation that Buddhists in India tended to see nature as dangerous and threatening,...." JK: Well, this point would apply to householders, far as I've been able to tell--they are the ones who engaged in apotropaic magic (as Jayarava notes in this weeks' rave). As either farmers dealing with cobras and kraits, or merchants dealing also with cobras and kraits (which restrain themsevles not from entering people's houses or huts), they'd tend to look on nature as dangererous. But we find the Buddha and his sangha of monks and occasional lay-people resting in the park-like groves of rich merchants or kings...Jeta's or Anandapithika's Groves come to mind here. Such places were where they struck camp and rested, and where the Buddha gave a lot of teachings. Some of the stories have the Buddha calming rampaging beasts; some iconography shows him being sheltered from rain by the multi-headed Naga King cobra. There were also monks, like Kashyappa (or one of the K's) who spent most of his time alone on retreat in the jungle, a practice ideal that seems to have begun while the Buddha was alive. It's not that some weren't afraid of cobras, tigers and such--but they didn't loathe nature per se, and some of the suttas as I once posted on the list wrote poems about how wonderful is the solitudinal beauty of nature in the forest and mountains. So whoever wrote that aticle must not have been reading the suttas. Or maybe it depends on what one calls "nature." The Buddhasasana sure were not laudative of unreconstructed human nature! Joanna From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 10 11:47:22 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:47:22 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <93E2ADFA-57BD-4E6E-9CF5-59933A3A1CCF@wheelwrightassoc.com> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> <93E2ADFA-57BD-4E6E-9CF5-59933A3A1CCF@wheelwrightassoc.com> Message-ID: <1231613243.8936.1.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2009-01-10 at 09:58 -0800, Timothy Smith wrote: > Sometimes scholarly skepticism looks > a bit like old fashioned prejudice. I have a prejudice against old-fashioned prejudice. I much prefer the new and improved forms of prejudice. -- Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 10 11:53:47 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:53:47 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] The American New EnglandTranscendentalists' retreat--Follensby Pond In-Reply-To: References: <51DE4143895143318733F22E3F682DAB@OPTIPLEX> <1231606137.6624.22.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1231613627.8936.7.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2009-01-10 at 11:39 -0700, jkirk wrote: > So whoever wrote that aticle must not have been reading the > suttas. Or maybe it depends on what one calls "nature." The > Buddhasasana sure were not laudative of unreconstructed human > nature! The article was based entirely on passages from the suttas. The world of "nature" or "wilderness" was described as places where human inhabitants are either very rare or lacking altogether. Such places were seen as frightening and unappealing and were commonly used in the suttas as metaphors of undesirable mental states. -- Richard From jehms at xs4all.nl Sat Jan 10 12:29:06 2009 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:29:06 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4968F702.1060902@xs4all.nl> Richard Hayes schreef: > On Sat, 2009-01-10 at 01:55 +0100, Vicente Gonzalez wrote: > > >> thanks so much for the link. Some names appearing in that text are >> quite popular in the Spanish speaking world. Probably the Enneagram >> it's just a remake of kabbalistic stuff. It is not strange that such >> thing comes from South America. There is an important amount of >> new-age ideas arising in that area from 70's. >> > > There is an informal logical fallacy known as the genetic fallacy. It > consists in dismissing something because of its origins. The reason it > is fallacious, of course, is that things tend to evolve after they are > originated, and evolution sometimes brings improvements. > This argument is fallacious in itself, because if the improvements are great we should be positive about the improvements. But no improvement makes up for a lousy idea. Example: all the complicated theories that we invented in order to make up for the absurdities of the original theory of creation of the universe in 6 days did not make it any better. > The enneagram of personality that Riso and Hudson discuss, especially in > their book The Wisdom of the Enneagram, > This proves my case. Anyone who writes a book titled 'the wisdom of this and this model' proves himself to be a complete nutter. A drawing or a model has no wisdom. Wisdom arises in people who unlike this Riso and Hudson have the ability to think. > Riso and Hudson make the claim that human beings at their very best are > nurturing, honest, compassionate, curious, trusting, cheerful, > courageous, peaceful and healing. > Well that's new! > It's interesting that when Richard Rohr, a Franciscan, presents the > enneagram of personality as a tool in Christian contemplative work, he > claims that Christ did not have a enneagrammatic personality type. > How interesting, another nutter claims to know something about the character of a shady legendary figure and he should be interesting because he's a member of the Franciscan order? > >> Probably that people made the same thing, and today the Enneagram is >> passing into psychotherapy. >> > > In her book on the Enneagram, Helen Palmer has an appendix with data > from various empirical studies done by psychologists. She seems to be > especially interested in finding correlations between enneagram > tyypology and the Myers-Briggs Type Index and several other > psychological persoanlity typologies. > If you look for verification there's plenty. > It may be worth noting that Riso and Hudson and Helen Palmer present the > enneagram almost entirely as a tool for better self-understanding (of > the sort that Socrates, the Stoics and the academic skeptics would > admire). One will find nothing at all in their work that makes the > enneagram resemble astrology, numerology, necromancy, geomancy or > oneiromancy or anything having to do with the occult or oracles. Now you forget that Socrates called all models and biasses doxa (opinion) and claimed that he had only one wisdom: being aware of his own ignorance. He never used any model. If he would have like numbers he certainly would have mentioned them. Perhaps the writers you mention give some decent advice between the lines, but an enneagram is a graph, a figure with nine points. It relies on a metaphysics of the number nine. Apart from this metaphysics there's no reason why there shouldn't be 143 different character types or 31. If you like Socrates or Stoa read them, it doesn't become any better because of the number nine. -- Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From smith at wheelwrightassoc.com Sat Jan 10 12:51:52 2009 From: smith at wheelwrightassoc.com (Timothy Smith) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:51:52 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <4968F702.1060902@xs4all.nl> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> <4968F702.1060902@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <0C9D8F9F-221D-4A5B-B8D1-D4693A785396@wheelwrightassoc.com> You may be right, Erik, however this says nothing about the 'wisdom' you so easily disparage. Should you decide to investigate the current thinking on the enneagram rather than relying solely on your antipathy towards 'metaphysics', you'll likely not find a whole lot of esoterica involved. Jung's system was 16 types, relying on a 4x4 matrix. The enneagram need not be seen as an esoteric system based on the mystical significance of the number nine any more than Jung's ideas that led to the MBTI are esoteric in their reliance on the 'cross' separating the functions. "The way through the world is more difficult than the way beyond it" Wallace Stevens "Reply to Papini" On Jan 10, 2009, at 11:29 AM, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > Perhaps the writers you mention give some decent advice between the > lines, but an enneagram is a graph, a figure with nine points. It > relies > on a metaphysics of the number nine. Apart from this metaphysics > there's > no reason why there shouldn't be 143 different character types or > 31. If > you like Socrates or Stoa read them, it doesn't become any better > because of the number nine. From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 10 12:53:32 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 12:53:32 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <4968DE4A.1020106@cola.iges.org> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX><4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1231606750.6624.30.camel@localhost> <4968DE4A.1020106@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: "New Age religion is simply what religion looks like when people are allowed to think whatever they please. Much of it is unedifying in the extreme, but the messiness of spiritual anarchism is much to be preferred over the alternatives proposed by those who like their spiritual trains to run on time. " Good to know that the reams of new agers who started their rebellions in the 19th c if not earlier weren't anywhere near as hierarchical as the versions we'd been discussing--the enneagramographers and the other one (Jungian I think it was). I'm for messiness. Keep the pot boiling. Joanna ================= Just five minutes ago I picked up and started reading "Secular Spirituality: Reincarnation and Spiritism in Nineteenth Century France" by Lynn L. Sharp. Spiritism preceded Spiritualism which preceded Theosophy. Along the way there were also Mesmerism, Swedenborgianism and of course even before those there was Rosicrucianism, Freemasonry, etc. Quietism, Quakerism, Shakerism and Pacifism also spring up from this same fertile ground - and all these roots are intertwined. "New Age religion" is simply what religion looks like when people are allowed to think whatever they please. Much of it is unedifying in the extreme, but the messiness of spiritual anarchism is much to be preferred over the alternatives proposed by those who like their spiritual trains to run on time. For the moment I have decided to drop everything else and just read Lynn Sharp's fascinati Curt _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 10 13:03:18 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 13:03:18 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] The AmericanNew EnglandTranscendentalists' retreat--Follensby Pond In-Reply-To: <1231613627.8936.7.camel@localhost> References: <51DE4143895143318733F22E3F682DAB@OPTIPLEX><1231606137.6624.22.camel@localhost> <1231613627.8936.7.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <2ECEBAA1E9E842E48717B790993ADE41@OPTIPLEX> -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] The AmericanNew EnglandTranscendentalists' retreat--Follensby Pond On Sat, 2009-01-10 at 11:39 -0700, jkirk wrote: > So whoever wrote that aticle must not have been reading the suttas. Or > maybe it depends on what one calls "nature." The Buddhasasana sure > were not laudative of unreconstructed human nature! Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 11:54 AM: >The article was based entirely on passages from the suttas. The world of "nature" or "wilderness" was described as places where human inhabitants are either very rare or lacking altogether. Such places were seen as frightening and unappealing and were commonly used in the suttas as metaphors of undesirable mental states. Richard How about some citations? Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jehms at xs4all.nl Sat Jan 10 13:24:33 2009 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:24:33 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <0C9D8F9F-221D-4A5B-B8D1-D4693A785396@wheelwrightassoc.com> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> <4968F702.1060902@xs4all.nl> <0C9D8F9F-221D-4A5B-B8D1-D4693A785396@wheelwrightassoc.com> Message-ID: <49690401.9080209@xs4all.nl> You're right, Tim, it may not be, but in this case I think it is. My point is that the history of the enneagram is not like the history of the periodical system of chemical elements, where the data came first and the model came later as a memory and communication tool. Here the model leads the way and to me this is plain nummerology. Timothy Smith schreef: > You may be right, Erik, however this says nothing about the 'wisdom' > you so easily disparage. Should you decide to investigate > the current thinking on the enneagram rather than relying solely on > your antipathy towards 'metaphysics', you'll likely not find > a whole lot of esoterica involved. Jung's system was 16 types, > relying on a 4x4 matrix. The enneagram need not be seen > as an esoteric system based on the mystical significance of the number > nine any more than Jung's ideas that led to the MBTI > are esoteric in their reliance on the 'cross' separating the functions. > > > > "The way through the world is more difficult than the way beyond it" > > Wallace Stevens > "Reply to Papini" > > > > > On Jan 10, 2009, at 11:29 AM, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > > >> Perhaps the writers you mention give some decent advice between the >> lines, but an enneagram is a graph, a figure with nine points. It >> relies >> on a metaphysics of the number nine. Apart from this metaphysics >> there's >> no reason why there shouldn't be 143 different character types or >> 31. If >> you like Socrates or Stoa read them, it doesn't become any better >> because of the number nine. >> Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From jehms at xs4all.nl Sat Jan 10 13:29:29 2009 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:29:29 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX><4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1231606750.6624.30.camel@localhost> <4968DE4A.1020106@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <49690529.8030007@xs4all.nl> jkirk schreef: > "New Age religion is simply what religion looks like when people > are allowed to think whatever they please. Much of it is > unedifying in the extreme, but the messiness of spiritual > anarchism is much to be preferred over the alternatives proposed > by those who like their spiritual trains to run on time. " > > Good to know that the reams of new agers who started their > rebellions in the 19th c if not earlier weren't anywhere near as > hierarchical as the versions we'd been discussing--the > enneagramographers and the other one (Jungian I think it was). > I'm for messiness. Keep the pot boiling. > Joanna > When the moon is in the seventh house And Jupiter aligned with Mars Then peace will guide the planets ... the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, remember? And before during the Theosophists who coined the term, it would have been the age of Krishnamurti. Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From curt at cola.iges.org Sat Jan 10 13:32:11 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:32:11 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <496905CB.1080705@cola.iges.org> Richard Hayes wrote: > It may be worth noting that Riso and Hudson and Helen Palmer present the > enneagram almost entirely as a tool for better self-understanding (of > the sort that Socrates, the Stoics and the academic skeptics would > admire). One will find nothing at all in their work that makes the > enneagram resemble astrology, numerology, necromancy, geomancy or > oneiromancy or anything having to do with the occult or oracles. > > In fact, Socrates encouraged his friends to consult and heed oracles. Indeed "gnothi seauton", as everyone knows, is associated with the oracle of Apollo at Delphi (the same oracle that declared Socrates to be the wisest of men). Socrates also, according to his own account, relied heavily on guidance from his personal daimon - what new age type people today refer to as a "spirit guide". In the words of Socrates' friend Xenophon: "He offered sacrifices constantly, and made no secret of it, now in his home, now at the altars of the public Temples, and he made use of divination with as little secrecy. Indeed it became notorious that Socrates claimed to be guided by his 'little daimon' [Greek: daimonion]." And also: "Another way he had of dealing with intimate friends was this: if there was no room for doubt he advised them to act as they thought best; but if the consequences could not be foreseen, he sent them to the oracle to inquire whether the thing ought to be done." See Xenophon's Memorabilia, Book I, section 1. The Stoics, for their part, helped to establish the theoretical framework for Hellenistic Astrology - with their concepts of "Logos" ("World-Soul"), "sumpatheia", and the inherent divinity of the sun, moon, planets and stars. Two of the most important Astrological treatises from the ancient world, Firmicus Maternus' "Mathesos Libri VIII" and Marcus Manlius' "Astonomica" were both written by authors from the Stoic school. The most important primary source that we have for Academic Skepticism is Cicero's "Academica" (Cicero was a student of the Skeptical Academy - or is that Sceptical Akademy?). The same year that he wrote that work he also produced his "On the Nature of the Gods" in which he makes it very clear that his "skepticism" did not in any way prevent him from adhering to the theological/cosmological views of the Stoics - which he explicitly endorses in the closing sentence of De Natura Deorum. The "Academy" itself had a shrine to the God Eros at it's entrance, and altars to Prometheus and Athena on it's grounds, and there were also prominent altars to the Muses, Hercules, and Hermes. In Platonism, Eros plays a role very similar (in many ways identical) to that of "sumpatheia" in Stoicism - and the Stoic conception of Logos as well as the divinity of celestial bodies is largely derived from Plato's Timaeus. An annual torch race began at Prometheus' shrine within the Academy - the racers lit their torches from that altar and then ran (in relay teams) to the Acropolis. The sacred flame on the altar of Athena was lit by the torch of whoever reached it first (any team whose torch went out was disqualified). Curt From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Sat Jan 10 13:54:32 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:54:32 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <337579800.20090110215432@gmail.com> Richard wrote: RH> There is an informal logical fallacy known as the genetic fallacy. It RH> consists in dismissing something because of its origins. The reason it RH> is fallacious, of course, is that things tend to evolve after they are RH> originated, and evolution sometimes brings improvements. there is not a dismissing intention in the attempt to trace the origins of any thing. As you says, the Enneagram can be a valid tool in Psychoterapy, and of course it can have his own evolution, etc... Just I pointed a real thing. From some decades ago, in South-America appeared a lot of groups, names and ideas dealing with spiritual matters. Some of these groups and names arise in a fresh and spontaneous way, while others have appeared in connection with ultra-righ politicians, catholic fundamentalism even foreign secret services. Of course there is a big distance between names like Jodorowsky and the Silo's humanism, the Alien contacted people or the so-called Maitreya cult. The point is inside what we call "new-age" there are not only free-thinkers and spontaneous movements but also international networks with a quite defined sociological goal. From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 10 14:02:24 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 14:02:24 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <49690529.8030007@xs4all.nl> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX><4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1231606750.6624.30.camel@localhost> <4968DE4A.1020106@cola.iges.org> <49690529.8030007@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <37E5D7481EF744DCA73359F8B44B8D39@OPTIPLEX> jkirk schreef: No--Richard wrote this: > "New Age religion is simply what religion looks like when people are > allowed to think whatever they please. Much of it is unedifying in the > extreme, but the messiness of spiritual anarchism is much to be > preferred over the alternatives proposed by those who like their > spiritual trains to run on time. " Joanna (referred to usually as jkirk on this list even though others are referred to by their name--oh well, a rose by any other name, etc) wrote this: > Good to know that the reams of new agers who started their rebellions > in the 19th c if not earlier weren't anywhere near as hierarchical as > the versions we'd been discussing--the enneagramographers and the > other one (Jungian I think it was). > I'm for messiness. Keep the pot boiling. > Joanna > When the moon is in the seventh house And Jupiter aligned with Mars Then peace will guide the planets ... the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, remember? And before during the Theosophists who coined the term, it would have been the age of Krishnamurti. Erik ======= Yes, people love to create Ages of this 'n that-- the logic in our languages creates the urge for classification. jkirk _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From bernie.simon at gmail.com Sat Jan 10 15:23:22 2009 From: bernie.simon at gmail.com (Bernard Simon) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:23:22 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism Message-ID: <8F70892A-1201-40E4-825D-4C7E3CDA8230@gmail.com> > "New Age religion is simply what religion looks like when people > are allowed to think whatever they please. Much of it is > unedifying in the extreme, but the messiness of spiritual > anarchism is much to be preferred over the alternatives proposed > by those who like their spiritual trains to run on time. " The New Age is simply another name for Western Occultism, which still gets too little scholarly attention because of its disreputable character. Its best known historian is Frances Yates, a Shakespeare scholar. Parts of the New Age are anarchic and individualistic, others are highly regimented. Remember Elizabeth Clare Prophet? From curt at cola.iges.org Sat Jan 10 16:02:28 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:02:28 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <8F70892A-1201-40E4-825D-4C7E3CDA8230@gmail.com> References: <8F70892A-1201-40E4-825D-4C7E3CDA8230@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49692904.8070903@cola.iges.org> Bernard Simon wrote: >> "New Age religion is simply what religion looks like when people >> are allowed to think whatever they please. Much of it is >> unedifying in the extreme, but the messiness of spiritual >> anarchism is much to be preferred over the alternatives proposed >> by those who like their spiritual trains to run on time. " >> > > The New Age is simply another name for Western Occultism, which still > gets too little scholarly attention because of its disreputable > character. Its best known historian is Frances Yates, a Shakespeare > scholar. Parts of the New Age are anarchic and individualistic, others > are highly regimented. Remember Elizabeth Clare Prophet? > > Lynn Sharp's book posits an ongoing tension between the "hierarchical" tendencies of the "Occult" and the democratic and even (as she claims) socialistic tendencies of "Spiritism". Personally I think that there is something to that, but it can be way over-emphasized. I haven't decided yet whether I think Sharp gets it "right" (in my opinion). In reality I think that spiritual knowledge is no more "democratic" and no more "hierarchical" than any other kind of knowledge. One does not learn calculus simply by way of Unverified Personal Gnosis - nor do I think any meaningful religious/spiritual/philosophical understanding is possible without the student "doing the work". Some people are born with natural talents of all kinds - but the more talent one has the greater benefit can come through training. And then there is also the annoying fact that democracy and (especially) socialism can turn out to be quite tyrannical and oppressive, and a monarchy (or other "hierarchical" political system) can guarantee and protect individual liberties - liberties that are, by definition, up for grabs in a democracy. Concerning Frances Yates: there is a new biography of her: "Frances Yates and the Hermetic Tradition", which I have so far only skimmed. Curt From curt at cola.iges.org Sat Jan 10 16:13:58 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:13:58 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <49690529.8030007@xs4all.nl> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX><4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1231606750.6624.30.camel@localhost> <4968DE4A.1020106@cola.iges.org> <49690529.8030007@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <49692BB6.5090907@cola.iges.org> Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > > When the moon is in the seventh house > And Jupiter aligned with Mars > Then peace will guide the planets > ... the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, remember? > The Age of Aquarius is likely to disappoint many of it's would-be fans. Aquarius is a fixed sign associated with the element Air - which implies a lack of flexibility in intellectual matters. Some speculate that we are already moving into the Age of Aquarius and that at least during the first decanate it will be an age of rigid, warring ideologies. Also, Aquarius is ruled by both Saturn and Uranus. Uranus is certainly groovy enough - but Saturn is not known as a party-animal. Having said the above I tend to view the Age of Pisces as the Astrological equivalent of the Bush Administration. I am ready for change, and it can't come soon enough. Curt From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 10 17:00:41 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:00:41 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX><4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1231606750.6624.30.camel@localhost> <4968DE4A.1020106@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1231632041.10047.0.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2009-01-10 at 12:53 -0700, jkirk wrote: > Good to know that the reams of new agers who started their > rebellions in the 19th c if not earlier weren't anywhere near as > hierarchical as the versions we'd been discussing--the > enneagramographers and the other one (Jungian I think it was). Where do you find hierarchical thinking in the enneagram? -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 10 17:08:44 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:08:44 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <496905CB.1080705@cola.iges.org> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> <496905CB.1080705@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1231632525.10047.4.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2009-01-10 at 15:32 -0500, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > In fact, Socrates encouraged his friends to consult and heed oracles. > Indeed "gnothi seauton", as everyone knows, is associated with the > oracle of Apollo at Delphi (the same oracle that declared Socrates to be > the wisest of men). You are talking, I presume, of the same Socrates who made fun of the oracle for saying that Socrates was the wisest of men. Ridiculing an oracle hardly constitutes encouragement to consult oracles. > Socrates also, according to his own account, relied heavily on guidance > from his personal daimon - what new age type people today refer to as a > "spirit guide". Probably a better translation for "daimon" is "critical thinking." -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 10 17:17:09 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:17:09 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <37E5D7481EF744DCA73359F8B44B8D39@OPTIPLEX> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX><4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1231606750.6624.30.camel@localhost> <4968DE4A.1020106@cola.iges.org> <49690529.8030007@xs4all.nl> <37E5D7481EF744DCA73359F8B44B8D39@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1231633030.10047.13.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2009-01-10 at 14:02 -0700, jkirk wrote: > Joanna (referred to usually as jkirk on this list even though > others are referred to by their name--oh well, a rose by any > other name, etc) wrote this: This has been explained before, but some people may like to see it again. Most e-mail programs have a formula for identifying the sender of a message, and they use that information to set up an automatically generated statement like the one at the top of this message. If you would like to be called by your name, all you need do is set up your e-mail client properly by putting your name in the name field of the preferences. Then your e-mails will go out with a return address that looks like this: Joanna Kirkpatrick . If you leave the name fields blank in your e-mail setup, most e-mail programs will foolishly take the material to the left of the @-sign in your email address as your name. Without knowing which e-mail program you use, I can't give more specific guidance. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 10 17:20:59 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:20:59 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <49692BB6.5090907@cola.iges.org> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX><4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1231606750.6624.30.camel@localhost> <4968DE4A.1020106@cola.iges.org> <49690529.8030007@xs4all.nl> <49692BB6.5090907@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1231633259.10047.16.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2009-01-10 at 18:13 -0500, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > The Age of Aquarius is likely to disappoint many of it's would-be fans. > Aquarius is a fixed sign associated with the element Air - which implies > a lack of flexibility in intellectual matters. In Indian old-age spirituality, the element air is associated with flighty thinking and an inability to hold to any view for more than a few moments. -- Richard From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 10 17:45:02 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:45:02 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231633030.10047.13.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net><0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX><4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl><1231606750.6624.30.camel@localhost> <4968DE4A.1020106@cola.iges.org><49690529.8030007@xs4all.nl><37E5D7481EF744DCA73359F8B44B8D39@OPTIPLEX> <1231633030.10047.13.camel@localhost> Message-ID: If a name field is absent and I want to reply to someone's message, I look for the sender's signature. It's easy..... try it. Joanna ====================== > Joanna (referred to usually as jkirk on this list even though others > are referred to by their name--oh well, a rose by any other name, etc) > wrote this: This has been explained before, but some people may like to see it again. Most e-mail programs have a formula for identifying the sender of a message, and they use that information to set up an automatically generated statement like the one at the top of this message. If you would like to be called by your name, all you need do is set up your e-mail client properly by putting your name in the name field of the preferences. Then your e-mails will go out with a return address that looks like this: Joanna Kirkpatrick . If you leave the name fields blank in your e-mail setup, most e-mail programs will foolishly take the material to the left of the @-sign in your email address as your name. Without knowing which e-mail program you use, I can't give more specific guidance. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 10 17:46:06 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:46:06 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231632041.10047.0.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net><0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX><4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl><1231606750.6624.30.camel@localhost> <4968DE4A.1020106@cola.iges.org> <1231632041.10047.0.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <9CAC80CA64E34ADD90B0E66A0D63D9E0@OPTIPLEX> I'm waiting for citations of suttas that denigrate nature. -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:01 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism On Sat, 2009-01-10 at 12:53 -0700, jkirk wrote: > Good to know that the reams of new agers who started their rebellions > in the 19th c if not earlier weren't anywhere near as hierarchical as > the versions we'd been discussing--the enneagramographers and the > other one (Jungian I think it was). Where do you find hierarchical thinking in the enneagram? -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Sat Jan 10 18:26:32 2009 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 09:26:32 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] On New Age (was Enneagram and Buddhism) In-Reply-To: References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu><+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net><0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX><4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49694AC8.5060308@comp.nus.edu.sg> A friend of mine was a ex-Buddhist and is now into Clairvision (http://www.clairvision.org/). He says the Buddhist path to enlightenment is too slow and inefficient. Clairvision brings him there immediately - at the cost of several thousand dollars per module. Quite sad for me... he was transformed from a mild manner super nice guy to this strange, eerie fellow that he is now (obsess about energy, obstructions, clearing what the past has left in him etc). He has since given up medical practice for life as a full time Clairvision-er. W.F. Wong From curt at cola.iges.org Sat Jan 10 18:44:09 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:44:09 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] On New Age (was Enneagram and Buddhism) In-Reply-To: <49694AC8.5060308@comp.nus.edu.sg> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu><+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net><0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX><4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <49694AC8.5060308@comp.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <49694EE9.5030101@cola.iges.org> "Raising the voltage of consciousness"!! The founder of "Clairvision" was also a physician - like your friend. They have an online database with the place (lat and long) and precise time of the birth of leading world figures ranging from Barack Obama to Dan Quayle: http://tinyurl.com/9ww7yv There system is broken down into six tracks each costing between $100 and $150 (Australian). The first question in their FAQ is "Can one really study spirituality by correspondence?" These guys almost make Ken Wilber look legitimate by comparison. Curt Weng-Fai Wong wrote: > A friend of mine was a ex-Buddhist and is now into Clairvision > (http://www.clairvision.org/). He says the Buddhist path to > enlightenment is too slow and inefficient. Clairvision brings him there > immediately - at the cost of several thousand dollars per module. > > Quite sad for me... he was transformed from a mild manner super nice guy > to this strange, eerie fellow that he is now (obsess about energy, > obstructions, clearing what the past has left in him etc). He has since > given up medical practice for life as a full time Clairvision-er. > > W.F. Wong > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From dharmafarer at gmail.com Sun Jan 11 02:06:41 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:06:41 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231179716.5678.30.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> <1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost> <1231127839.14568.9.camel@localhost> <1231179716.5678.30.camel@localhost> Message-ID: Richard, On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:21 AM, Richard Hayes wrote: > > On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 12:16 +0800, Piya Tan wrote: > > About fifteen years ago a student introduced me to Helen Palmer's book > on the enneagram, and I then identified myself as a type one (also > driven by anger and rage). In subsequent work I've come to see that a > much more accurate fit is type nine (still very much anger-driven) with > a strong one wing. I still mostly do mett?-bh?van?, but have lately been > wondering whether other practices might complement that and help to > break down, or at least reduce the effect of, a few other barriers that > get in my way from time to time. > > Something that a lot of people I have come across have noticed is that > most people have a tendency to gravitate to spiritual practices that are > least likely to transform them and most likely to keep them stuck in > unhealthy patterns (and thus fail to be spiritual practices at all). For > example, people with a strong tendency to withdraw from problems rather > than face them head on tend to become dhy?na addicts. Dhy?na practice > can be a kind of narcosis. (I've certainly done a hell of a lot of that > particular form of escaping into narcotic sam?dhi during my life, and it > has probably done me very little good at all, and it has surely caused a > lot of problems for the people who have had to live with me.) > Sorry to backtrack, but this last para sounds familiar, and reminds me of some FWBO people like that in the 80s when I was living with them for some months. Having tried Sangharakshita's methods (are you speaking of them?) I don't think he knows dhyana at all. Let me just say that and not open old woundst. I have met monks (esp followers of Ajahn Chah's tradition) who, as a rule, I see as naturally smiling and happily engaged when you are with them. One quality I notice in such monks who do dhyana, is that they are full of peaceful enthusiasm. I only met Ajahn Sumedho only once as a monk in Bangkok in my early years as a monk. I remember sitting with him for two hours (just the two of us) listening to him speaking on the "joy: of the monk's Vinaya. This was one of the joyful moments of my life I never forget. Talk of personal transmission. When I first met Ajahn Brahm when I was a layman again in 2001, his first words this time were that he gratefully remembers me fo being his translator during his ordination year in Bangkok, before returning to Ajahn Chah's centre in NE Thailand. Interestingly, Ajahn Chah, a forest monk, felt that this well known Pali monastery in Bangkok (Wat Sraket) should keep connected with the forest meditation tradition. This was around the same time I met Ajahn Sumedho (as mentioned). It was after this that I meandered away from Theravada, and experimented with Sangharakshita's teachings in the UK. The 1980s was a time when the WBO was gatheirng strength but suspicious of "other" Buddhisms (eg Theravada-bashing). So I was told to "unlearn" what I was taught as a Theravada monk, and almost did. Somehow I only remained as a Mitra and never got to the stage of Dharmacari despite my enthusiasm. One setback for me was that I appear to know too much of Theravada. Failing to fit in with the FWBO I spent about a decade in a Buddhismless limbo running a US comic book store (something easy, I thought, to support the family I have started). My ex-students from Singapore knew I had no business mind, Things picked up again when I was invited to move to Singapore to start teaching Buddhism again, something I did most reluctantly at first, but did anyway. What wasinitially healing for me then was the enthusiasm for Sutta study shown by some members of the NUS Buddhist Society, and things came to a head when I found myself fully involved in Sutta translation (I learned Pali in the Bangkok monastic years and brushed it up again at the Buddhist Library courses) again. So here I am back again doing something I started off in my religious life: translating and teaching Pali Suttas. It is is kind of big circle I took, but happy that the ends have now closed. Another important stimulus to my renewed engagement with Buddhism is meeting with Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Sujato and Ajahn Chah's teachings. These monks often speak of dhyana, and it is definitely not the addictive kind I saw in the FWBO or the Burmese methods. They are truly happy monks. I learned Ajahn Chah's meditation methods along with the Vipassana that I learned from Mahasi Sayadaw himsef. Both systems work fine for me, and the students that I teach. Lovingkindness is especially healing, for many of them found closure with painful past events. You are right about dhyana addiction, which was rampant in Malaysia when I was a monk there, and Ajahn Brahm spoke about in the same tone as yourself of the Malaysian situation, which I have happily left behind. I have practically lost touch with the FWBO, but suspect that there are still a number of good meditators whose meditative lives have matured, and are in touch with early Buddhist teachings (incl "Theravada" of the forest monks). I enjoy meeting happy people, and in my teachings, I try to tell people to be engaged with life without being drowned and dragged by the past and worldliness. I used to have a lot of anger and critical mind (one of the reasons I thought being with FWBO would help). Much of the anger at the stupidityof the local Buddhists and SInhala missionaries is gone, although the critical awareness is more keen now. Instead of writing memoirs, I now try to see my own sufferings in the context of the early Suttas and laugh at myself. Not-self is a great and healing teaching. The point of this is that knowing monks who really know dhyana and are happy people is not only healing but also energizing in the kind of work and life I am living now: as a full time lay teacher with a family and supported by dana from the Buddhist community. BTW, I do occasion crtiicize some of the teachings and writings of these forest monks, where I know the Sutta would support my case, but such incidents are minor, and in now way dilute the happy inflience that I see in them. I think we should meet more happy meditating monks and find out why they have chosen such a life. With metta for this new year and beyond, Piya Tan From curt at cola.iges.org Sun Jan 11 11:30:21 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:30:21 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231632525.10047.4.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> <496905CB.1080705@cola.iges.org> <1231632525.10047.4.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <496A3ABD.3010201@cola.iges.org> Richard Hayes wrote: > On Sat, 2009-01-10 at 15:32 -0500, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > > >> In fact, Socrates encouraged his friends to consult and heed oracles. >> Indeed "gnothi seauton", as everyone knows, is associated with the >> oracle of Apollo at Delphi (the same oracle that declared Socrates to be >> the wisest of men). >> > > You are talking, I presume, of the same Socrates who made fun of the > oracle for saying that Socrates was the wisest of men. Ridiculing an > oracle hardly constitutes encouragement to consult oracles. > That might be your own Unverified Personal Gnosis, to which you are entitled, but as far any objective evidence available to the rest of us - none of it indicates that Socrates ever "ridiculed" any oracle. You aren't by any chance channeling Meletus, Anytus, or Lycon, are you? Or possibly Aristophanes? In fact, ridicule of any kind would have been wildly out of character for Socrates. > >> Socrates also, according to his own account, relied heavily on guidance >> from his personal daimon - what new age type people today refer to as a >> "spirit guide". >> > > Probably a better translation for "daimon" is "critical thinking." > > That is what the Jungians call "projection". Socrates, for his part, never confused critical thinking with spiritual guidance. But one has to have some familiarity with both in order to be able to make the distinction reliably. Curt From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 11 12:12:02 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:12:02 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu><+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net><0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <61154D165F2B4743848778086312781A@OPTIPLEX> I took a look at Daniel's website, and see that you have to pay to play. Joanna ===================== .......As others have said. You can jack around with any instrument, and on any given day, you're more or less likely to have a different view of yourself. Enneagram awareness is built over time, not garnered quickly at the tip of a pencil....much as most dharma practitioners don't find their seat for some period of practice.s Dr. David Daniels of Stanford at http://www.enneagramworldwide.com/ has done some of the work I think scholars here may appreciate. Again, I see over and over in this extended thread, the idea that 'typing' is a parlor game. Only if thats what you want it to be. Its a useful tool if you have a use for it. If not, leave it in the bag until you're ready. Timothy Smith Wheelwright Associates www.wheelwrightassoc.com > > > Vicente is right--the practice of dharma doesn't need personality > typing. While some people find it to be useful in helping them toward > insight, it might also be misguiding. And, one can fiddle around with > the questionnaire. Has any psychoanalyst or psychiatrist written a > critique of the enneagram system? > > ____________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 11 15:59:35 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:59:35 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Has anyone read this Book? Message-ID: Anyone here acquainted with Wolinksy's take on mental cultivation, or similar? I'm wondering about his use of the concept, trance. Stephen Wolinsky. Trances People Live (Paperback) 2007. Joanna From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 12 06:43:32 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 06:43:32 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX><4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1231606750.6624.30.camel@localhost> <4968DE4A.1020106@cola.iges.org> <49690529.8030007@xs4all.nl> <37E5D7481EF744DCA73359F8B44B8D39@OPTIPLEX> <1231633030.10047.13.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1231767813.6652.2.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2009-01-10 at 17:45 -0700, jkirk wrote: > If a name field is absent and I want to reply to someone's > message, I look for the sender's signature. Why do you find it preferable to put everyone else to extra work when you could easily solve the problem at your end? -- Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 12 07:09:26 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:09:26 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <02EB59E5D15A419E88489DC488E5FFEE@600m> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> <1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost> <1231127839.14568.9.camel@localhost> <1231179716.5678.30.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1231769366.6652.26.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2009-01-11 at 17:06 +0800, Piya Tan wrote: > It was after this that I meandered away from Theravada, and > experimented with Sangharakshita's teachings in the UK. The 1980s was > a time when the WBO was gatheirng strength but suspicious of "other" > Buddhisms (eg Theravada-bashing). That was an unfortunate period in their (or perhaps I should say our) history. I had no contact with the FWBO during that phase. When I did begin going to FWBO events I was quite outspoken in voicing my disapproval of Sangharakshita's Theravada-bashing and his Christianity-bashing. Any kind of bashing strikes me as counterproductive (except, of course, Republican-bashing). Gradually, over time, I think some people in the FWBO have become less prone to following Sangharakshita's prejudices. > I learned Ajahn Chah's meditation methods along with the Vipassana > that I learned from Mahasi Sayadaw himsef. In the 1990's I had a meditation group in Montreal. One of our regulars was a Canadian who had spent seven years training with Ajahn Chah. We all learned a lot from him. > I have practically lost touch with the FWBO, but suspect that there > are still a number of good meditators whose meditative lives have > matured, and are in touch with early Buddhist teachings (incl > "Theravada" of the forest monks). Yes, there are quite a few such people. > I enjoy meeting happy people So do I. They are relatively rare, especially in philosophy departments. The academic world in general is filled with bitter dried up old prunes with large but terribly fragile egos. But I suspect that is true of most organizations where there is a culture of success and competition. > Instead of writing memoirs, I now try to see my own sufferings in the > context of the early Suttas and laugh at myself. Not-self is a great > and healing teaching. I could not agree more. The name of the enneagram conference I attended at the beginning of this year was Laughing and Weeping. A leitmotif of the conference was that psychological heeling takes place when one looks at one's own life and weeps at all the dukkha one has caused others through one's own incompetence, and then laughs at one's own folly. The people who were talking about the enneagram (mostly Russ Hudson and Richard Rohr) were showing how it can be used as a tool to dig into a deeper awareness of a lifelong of folly. > I think we should meet more happy meditating monks and find out why > they have chosen such a life. There is nothing special about monks, but I agree that most of benefit by meeting more happy people who have a daily contemplative practice of some sort. Such people exist when one looks for them and can be found in every walk of life and in every religious tradition. -- Richard Hayes (Day?mati Dharmachari) From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 12 07:13:04 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:13:04 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <496A3ABD.3010201@cola.iges.org> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> <496905CB.1080705@cola.iges.org> <1231632525.10047.4.camel@localhost> <496A3ABD.3010201@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1231769584.6652.30.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2009-01-11 at 13:30 -0500, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > Socrates, for his part, > never confused critical thinking with spiritual guidance. I am in no position to judge. I never met the man. > But one has to > have some familiarity with both in order to be able to make the > distinction reliably. Being familiar with neither, I hereby disqualify myself from all further discussion pertaining to either philosophy or spirituality. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From cfynn at gmx.net Mon Jan 12 09:12:35 2009 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:12:35 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram-L In-Reply-To: <1231769584.6652.30.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> <496905CB.1080705@cola.iges.org> <1231632525.10047.4.camel@localhost> <496A3ABD.3010201@cola.iges.org> <1231769584.6652.30.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <496B6BF3.1010401@gmx.net> I've seen almost nothing on this list but this thread on the Enneagram for the past two or three weeks. What's so special? Buddhism has plenty of well developed personality typing & categorizing systems of its own based on things like the Abhidhamma, the Five Buddha Families and so on. Meanwhile people are still busy slaughtering each other in Gaza. Chris From jkirk at spro.net Mon Jan 12 09:24:55 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:24:55 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231767813.6652.2.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost><4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net><0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX><4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl><1231606750.6624.30.camel@localhost> <4968DE4A.1020106@cola.iges.org><49690529.8030007@xs4all.nl><37E5D7481EF744DCA73359F8B44B8D39@OPTIPLEX><1231633030.10047.13.camel@localhost> <1231767813.6652.2.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <9AEAF2582E764C2787D23D99CD705C0D@OPTIPLEX> Yawn~~~~~~~~~~~ -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 6:44 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism On Sat, 2009-01-10 at 17:45 -0700, jkirk wrote: > If a name field is absent and I want to reply to someone's message, I > look for the sender's signature. Why do you find it preferable to put everyone else to extra work when you could easily solve the problem at your end? -- Richard _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From curt at cola.iges.org Mon Jan 12 09:26:41 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:26:41 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Five Buddha Families (was: Enneagram-L) In-Reply-To: <496B6BF3.1010401@gmx.net> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> <496905CB.1080705@cola.iges.org> <1231632525.10047.4.camel@localhost> <496A3ABD.3010201@cola.iges.org> <1231769584.6652.30.camel@localhost> <496B6BF3.1010401@gmx.net> Message-ID: <496B6F41.9000902@cola.iges.org> The Five Buddha Families was one of the first things I thought of when the initial topic of the Enneagram of Personality came up. Thanks for raising this!! I love Chogyam Trungpa's book on the Five Buddha Families: "Orderly Chaos": http://www.amazon.com/Orderly-Chaos-Mandala-Principle-Dharma/dp/0877736367 But what I got from that book had little to do with "personality types". What I liked most of all was Trungpa's focus on the samsaric aspect of things, rather than the nirvanic, because we obviously live in samsara, not nirvana: "The idea of enlightenment is born out of confusion." Curt Christopher Fynn wrote: > I've seen almost nothing on this list but this thread on the Enneagram > for the past two or three weeks. What's so special? Buddhism has plenty > of well developed personality typing & categorizing systems of its own > based on things like the Abhidhamma, the Five Buddha Families and so on. > > Meanwhile people are still busy slaughtering each other in Gaza. > > Chris > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 12 10:05:16 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:05:16 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram-L In-Reply-To: <496B6BF3.1010401@gmx.net> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> <496905CB.1080705@cola.iges.org> <1231632525.10047.4.camel@localhost> <496A3ABD.3010201@cola.iges.org> <1231769584.6652.30.camel@localhost> <496B6BF3.1010401@gmx.net> Message-ID: <1231779916.8751.7.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2009-01-12 at 22:12 +0600, Christopher Fynn wrote: > I've seen almost nothing on this list but this thread on the Enneagram > for the past two or three weeks. What's so special? Buddhism has plenty > of well developed personality typing & categorizing systems of its own > based on things like the Abhidhamma, the Five Buddha Families and so on. Nothing special. The enneagram is just another tool that people may find helpful as a complement to the many others. I hesitated even to bring the topic up, because I anticipated that it would stir up a lot of unproductive negativity. I think enough has been said to enable those who are interested in exploring personality typology further to do so. I'm in favour of laying the topic down here. Again, I thank those who have contacted me privately about it. I'll probably write a blog posting pretty soon exploring a number of the topics we have been discussing here: personality typology, the Socratic daimon, dhy?na, the Quaker notion of the inward light and critical thinking (by which I mean something entirely different from what I suspect a lot of people mean by that term.) If I do write such a posting, I'll advertise it on buddha-l for those who may be interested. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca Mon Jan 12 10:06:50 2009 From: horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca (Gad Horowitz) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:06:50 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram-L References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu><+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX><4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> <496905CB.1080705@cola.iges.org><1231632525.10047.4.camel@localhost> <496A3ABD.3010201@cola.iges.org><1231769584.6652.30.camel@localhost> <496B6BF3.1010401@gmx.net> Message-ID: And in Sri Lanka etc etc etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Fynn" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 11:12 AM Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram-L > I've seen almost nothing on this list but this thread on the Enneagram > for the past two or three weeks. What's so special? Buddhism has plenty > of well developed personality typing & categorizing systems of its own > based on things like the Abhidhamma, the Five Buddha Families and so on. > > Meanwhile people are still busy slaughtering each other in Gaza. > > Chris > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 12 10:07:16 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:07:16 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Five Buddha Families (was: Enneagram-L) In-Reply-To: <496B6F41.9000902@cola.iges.org> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> <496905CB.1080705@cola.iges.org> <1231632525.10047.4.camel@localhost> <496A3ABD.3010201@cola.iges.org> <1231769584.6652.30.camel@localhost> <496B6BF3.1010401@gmx.net> <496B6F41.9000902@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1231780036.8751.9.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2009-01-12 at 11:26 -0500, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > The Five Buddha Families was one of the first things I thought of when > the initial topic of the Enneagram of Personality came up. Thanks for > raising this!! > > I love Chogyam Trungpa's book on the Five Buddha Families: "Orderly Chaos": > http://www.amazon.com/Orderly-Chaos-Mandala-Principle-Dharma/dp/0877736367 > > But what I got from that book had little to do with "personality types". > What I liked most of all was Trungpa's focus on the samsaric aspect of > things, rather than the nirvanic, because we obviously live in samsara, > not nirvana: "The idea of enlightenment is born out of confusion." > > Curt > > Christopher Fynn wrote: > > I've seen almost nothing on this list but this thread on the Enneagram > > for the past two or three weeks. What's so special? Buddhism has plenty > > of well developed personality typing & categorizing systems of its own > > based on things like the Abhidhamma, the Five Buddha Families and so on. > > > > Meanwhile people are still busy slaughtering each other in Gaza. > > > > Chris > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > buddha-l mailing list > > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From dharmafarer at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 10:40:17 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 01:40:17 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1231769366.6652.26.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> <1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost> <1231127839.14568.9.camel@localhost> <1231179716.5678.30.camel@localhost> <1231769366.6652.26.camel@localhost> Message-ID: Richard, > > I think we should meet more happy meditating monks and find out why > > they have chosen such a life. > > There is nothing special about monks, but I agree that most of benefit > by meeting more happy people who have a daily contemplative practice of > some sort. Such people exist when one looks for them and can be found in > every walk of life and in every religious tradition. > > -- > Richard Hayes (Day?mati Dharmachari) > > Yes, I must add that I am coming to that kind of feeling, too. However, it is very unlikely for me to meet any such "Christian" here in Singapore, as their situation right now is somewhat like the Dark Ages. The non-Catholics do not want to have anything to do with anyone outside their tribe. And the Buddhists here are becoming tribal, too. Titles and skin colour also count very much here: so "Dharmacari", "Ven Dr," and such are an asset. Many natives are still friendly here. A silver lining: I'm sure we do not have Republicans here, although SIngapore is a republic. Interestingly I get a lot ofn non-Buddhists coming for my classes, too, esp the meditation. At the moment, they are mostly the troubled ones. I think it's a matter of time when the happy ones come. With metta, Piya From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 12 11:04:40 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:04:40 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <49614A07.3070104@cola.iges.org> <000301c96ecd$492df730$db89e590$@org> <1231126954.13723.28.camel@localhost> <1231127839.14568.9.camel@localhost> <1231179716.5678.30.camel@localhost> <1231769366.6652.26.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1231783480.8751.47.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2009-01-13 at 01:40 +0800, Piya Tan wrote: > Interestingly I get a lot of non-Buddhists coming for my classes, too, esp > the meditation. For years I used to have an interesting assortment of people showing up for meditation. There were some orthodox Jews, a Sunni Muslim from Saudi Arabia, a variety of Christians, some Tibetan-oriented Buddhists, a former Therav?da monk, and a couple of Zen practitioners. (I've never been entirely sure what I was, except a superficial dabbler unable to commit myself to anything that requires real work.) One thing that always fascinated me was what an apparently deep feeling of love was palpable in the room at the end of our meditation sessions. It was perhaps more apparent than real, since it often degenerated into discussions once tea was served and people started remembering that they had built their egos around being Jewish or Catholic or Sunni or Gelug. People would start bickering about politics and religious doctrines in pretty short order, pretty much as they do on buddha-l. It was a gentle reminder of how impermanent everything, including peace of mind, is---especially when people cling to their personal and social identities. Sigh. It helps one be aware of how nice the world might be if an epidemic of arhanthood would break out. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From Jackhat1 at aol.com Mon Jan 12 11:09:08 2009 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:09:08 EST Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram and Buddhism Message-ID: In a message dated 1/12/2009 12:05:05 P.M. Central Standard Time, rhayes at unm.edu writes: For years I used to have an interesting assortment of people showing up for meditation. ==== Interestingly we have had a lot of young people, i.e., in their 20's and 30's, show up at our meditation group lately. It used to be just 50 year old's and up. Hope this is a trend that continues. jack **************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000026) From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Jan 12 22:32:05 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:32:05 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram-L In-Reply-To: <2610_1231780053_496B78D5_2610_7_1_1231779916.8751.7.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> <496905CB.1080705@cola.iges.org> <1231632525.10047.4.camel@localhost> <496A3ABD.3010201@cola.iges.org> <1231769584.6652.30.camel@localhost> <496B6BF3.1010401@gmx.net> <2610_1231780053_496B78D5_2610_7_1_1231779916.8751.7.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1231824725.15725.2.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2009-01-12 at 10:05 -0700, Richard Hayes wrote: > I'll probably write a blog posting pretty soon exploring a number of the > topics we have been discussing here: personality typology, the Socratic > daimon, dhy?na, the Quaker notion of the inward light and critical > thinking As predicted, such a blog appeared at http://dayamati.blogspot.com/ (Does the fact that I correctly predicted the future suffice as evidence that I have siddhis?) -- Richard Hayes From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Mon Jan 12 22:37:02 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:37:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Addictive Dhyana? Message-ID: <777019.65323.qm@web54603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi, Richard and/or Piya Tan ? What exactly do you mean by "addictive dhyana"? ? Katherine ? ? From dharmafarer at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 22:42:58 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:42:58 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Addictive Dhyana? In-Reply-To: <777019.65323.qm@web54603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <777019.65323.qm@web54603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Richard first mentioned the term here: perhaps Richard define it so that we have a better idea. To me it seems a contradiction in terms, like "sad happiness" unlike in a poetic sense(?) Piya On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Katherine Masis wrote: > Hi, Richard and/or Piya Tan > > What exactly do you mean by "addictive dhyana"? > > Katherine > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From stroble at hawaii.edu Tue Jan 13 01:37:16 2009 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (andy) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:37:16 -1000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram-L In-Reply-To: <496B6BF3.1010401@gmx.net> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <1231769584.6652.30.camel@localhost> <496B6BF3.1010401@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200901122237.17088.stroble@hawaii.edu> On Monday 12 January 2009 06:12:35 Christopher Fynn wrote: > I've seen almost nothing on this list but this thread on the Enneagram > for the past two or three weeks. What's so special? Buddhism has plenty > of well developed personality typing & categorizing systems of its own > based on things like the Abhidhamma, the Five Buddha Families and so on. > > Meanwhile people are still busy slaughtering each other in Gaza. > > Chris > I have been avoiding chiming in on the numerology thread, no doubt from shock at Richard's credence. Everyone knows that the sacred number in Buddhism is eight, not nine! And it's not just a Chinese thing, or I think it's not. Four Noble Truths, Eightfold path, right? No wonder Jung took it to 16, a natural progression. But I am still attached to the lucky seven of European traditions, or at least craps. More than that, I should be astonished at the lack of completeneness with Ennegrams, because as every good Pythagorean should know, the whole number is 10, the decad that is equilateral (on every side, or is that redundant?). Only Plotinus deals with the number nine, and that is just an artifact of editing, most likely. So in conclusion, just let me say that as far as personality types go, I am an eleven. You see, most amplifiers only go to ten, but ours go all the way to eleven. Thus said Spinal Tap, and thus I have heard. From curt at cola.iges.org Tue Jan 13 06:19:25 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:19:25 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram-L In-Reply-To: <1231824725.15725.2.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> <496905CB.1080705@cola.iges.org> <1231632525.10047.4.camel@localhost> <496A3ABD.3010201@cola.iges.org> <1231769584.6652.30.camel@localhost> <496B6BF3.1010401@gmx.net> <2610_1231780053_496B78D5_2610_7_1_1231779916.8751.7.camel@localhost> <1231824725.15725.2.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <496C94DD.1010508@cola.iges.org> Are siddhis anything like cooties? Richard Hayes wrote: > On Mon, 2009-01-12 at 10:05 -0700, Richard Hayes wrote: > > >> I'll probably write a blog posting pretty soon exploring a number of the >> topics we have been discussing here: personality typology, the Socratic >> daimon, dhy?na, the Quaker notion of the inward light and critical >> thinking >> > > As predicted, such a blog appeared at http://dayamati.blogspot.com/ > (Does the fact that I correctly predicted the future suffice as evidence > that I have siddhis?) > > From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Jan 13 10:03:00 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:03:00 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Addictive Dhyana? In-Reply-To: <777019.65323.qm@web54603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <777019.65323.qm@web54603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1231866180.6453.8.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2009-01-12 at 21:37 -0800, Katherine Masis wrote: > What exactly do you mean by "addictive dhyana"? Piya Tan will no doubt answer for himself. What I mean by the term is a tendency to seek out the peacefulness of second and higher dhy?na states rather than dealing directly with one's issues. It was once pointed out to be that the distinction between simply being industrious and being a "workaholic" (a ridiculous and ill-formed word if ever there was one) is that the latter uses being busy as a strategy for avoiding one's problems. To use Buddhist language, a workaholic takes refuge in being busy. Drawing on that notion of going for refuge to a practice in order to avoid facing unpleasant realities (especially unpleasant realities within oneself), I made the casual observation that dhy?na can be addictive; one can be a "dhy?naholic" (if I may be permitted to coin yet another ridiculous and ill-formed word). Some people (I being among them) will go to considerable length to avoid unpleasant realities. I have spent countless hours on meditation cushions being quite peaceful as a way of avoiding addressing my own kleshas. The Buddha himself warned against this. I ignored his advice. People who had to live with me paid the price. -- Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Jan 13 10:13:36 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:13:36 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram-L In-Reply-To: <496C94DD.1010508@cola.iges.org> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> <496905CB.1080705@cola.iges.org> <1231632525.10047.4.camel@localhost> <496A3ABD.3010201@cola.iges.org> <1231769584.6652.30.camel@localhost> <496B6BF3.1010401@gmx.net> <2610_1231780053_496B78D5_2610_7_1_1231779916.8751.7.camel@localhost> <1231824725.15725.2.camel@localhost> <496C94DD.1010508@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1231866816.6453.15.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2009-01-13 at 08:19 -0500, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > Are siddhis anything like cooties? There is no connection whatsoever. As everyone knows, a groupie is someone who hangs out with groups. Similarly, a cootie is someone who hangs out with coots. I did this just a few days ago at Bosque del Apache wildlife preserve. Many of well-meaning friend has made me an honorary coot elder; I'm assuming that's what they mean in calling me an old coot. So we now see the derivational pattern. Obviously, a siddhi is someone who hangs out with Siddh, which is what a Jewish Buddhist friend of mine likes to call Siddh?rtha. We're all siddhis here on buddha-l. -- Richard From dharmafarer at gmail.com Tue Jan 13 10:24:01 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 01:24:01 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Addictive Dhyana? In-Reply-To: <1231866180.6453.8.camel@localhost> References: <777019.65323.qm@web54603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1231866180.6453.8.camel@localhost> Message-ID: Meditation is not just sitting, definitely not for hours, when you know very well it does not work. Mindfulness is an ongoing present-moment awareness (partly defined in the Sati Sampajanna passage of the Satipatthana Sutta). Then there is Metta Bhavana, where you relate to others with the positive side of yourself. In time, that other will see his own goodness. The point is that both methods are mirrors that we look into clearly. We slowly see what we really are. So deal with it. Piya On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 1:03 AM, Richard Hayes wrote: > On Mon, 2009-01-12 at 21:37 -0800, Katherine Masis wrote: > > > What exactly do you mean by "addictive dhyana"? > > Piya Tan will no doubt answer for himself. What I mean by the term is a > tendency to seek out the peacefulness of second and higher dhy?na states > rather than dealing directly with one's issues. It was once pointed out > to be that the distinction between simply being industrious and being a > "workaholic" (a ridiculous and ill-formed word if ever there was one) is > that the latter uses being busy as a strategy for avoiding one's > problems. To use Buddhist language, a workaholic takes refuge in being > busy. > > Drawing on that notion of going for refuge to a practice in order to > avoid facing unpleasant realities (especially unpleasant realities > within oneself), I made the casual observation that dhy?na can be > addictive; one can be a "dhy?naholic" (if I may be permitted to coin yet > another ridiculous and ill-formed word). Some people (I being among > them) will go to considerable length to avoid unpleasant realities. I > have spent countless hours on meditation cushions being quite peaceful > as a way of avoiding addressing my own kleshas. The Buddha himself > warned against this. I ignored his advice. People who had to live with > me paid the price. > > -- > Richard > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From curt at cola.iges.org Tue Jan 13 10:25:46 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:25:46 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Enneagram-L In-Reply-To: <1231866816.6453.15.camel@localhost> References: <1231071760.8871.19.camel@localhost> <4963CD58.7050109@email.smith.edu> <+1q6nABl3JZJFwjl@clara.net> <0BD80D08191C460895C93AA0C82BBE76@OPTIPLEX> <4964DE2B.30104@xs4all.nl> <1617664983.20090110015531@gmail.com> <1231609542.6624.71.camel@localhost> <496905CB.1080705@cola.iges.org> <1231632525.10047.4.camel@localhost> <496A3ABD.3010201@cola.iges.org> <1231769584.6652.30.camel@localhost> <496B6BF3.1010401@gmx.net> <2610_1231780053_496B78D5_2610_7_1_1231779916.8751.7.camel@localhost> <1231824725.15725.2.camel@localhost> <496C94DD.1010508@cola.iges.org> <1231866816.6453.15.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <496CCE9A.7010201@cola.iges.org> This only partially answers the question. The two most important characteristics of cooties, as everyone knows, are: (1) they are highly contagious (2) girls have them In order to distinguish cooties from siddhis we must determine the extent to which the state of siddhidom is contagious and whether or not girls are especially vulnerable. I think that answering the second question could fall under NIH guidelines for the inclusion of women an minorities in medical research: http://grants.nih.gov/grants/funding/women_min/guidelines_amended_10_2001.htm Richard Hayes wrote: > On Tue, 2009-01-13 at 08:19 -0500, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > > >> Are siddhis anything like cooties? >> > > There is no connection whatsoever. As everyone knows, a groupie is > someone who hangs out with groups. Similarly, a cootie is someone who > hangs out with coots. I did this just a few days ago at Bosque del > Apache wildlife preserve. Many of well-meaning friend has made me an > honorary coot elder; I'm assuming that's what they mean in calling me an > old coot. So we now see the derivational pattern. Obviously, a siddhi is > someone who hangs out with Siddh, which is what a Jewish Buddhist friend > of mine likes to call Siddh?rtha. > > We're all siddhis here on buddha-l. > > From jkirk at spro.net Tue Jan 13 14:30:56 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 14:30:56 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mirror neurons, anyone? Message-ID: <05FE8AA2C61943188EE919DF0CD56813@OPTIPLEX> Here's the link to the conference (on "neuroesthetics"), borrowed from another list: http://plaisir.berkeley.edu/ Abstracts of the papers below. If you only have time to hear one paper, go with Iacoboni's (if I do attend, I plan to ask him about the necessity for positing "mirror neurons" as a special class of cells). Note also the papers that claim that so-called mirror neurons are involved in the development of empathy and other culturally relevant phenomena. Joanna From sfeite at adelphia.net Tue Jan 13 14:58:09 2009 From: sfeite at adelphia.net (S.A. Feite) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:58:09 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mirror neurons, anyone? In-Reply-To: <05FE8AA2C61943188EE919DF0CD56813@OPTIPLEX> References: <05FE8AA2C61943188EE919DF0CD56813@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <8B95200B-2E8D-4B69-B677-B2B29A7B7105@adelphia.net> On Jan 13, 2009, at 4:30 PM, jkirk wrote: > Here's the link to the conference (on "neuroesthetics"), borrowed > from another list: > > http://plaisir.berkeley.edu/ > > Abstracts of the papers below. If you only have time to hear one > paper, go with Iacoboni's (if I do attend, I plan to ask him > about the necessity for positing "mirror neurons" as a special > class of cells). > > Note also the papers that claim that so-called mirror neurons are > involved in the development of empathy and other culturally > relevant phenomena. For a wonderful treatment of Mirror Neurons in a Buddhist context, see the excellent _The Mindful Brain: Reflection and Attunement In The Cultivation of Well-Being_ by Daniel J. Siegel, MD. I was disappointed to see that Dr. Siegel was not speaking at the upcoming Harvard conference on compassion, meditation research and psychotherapy with HH the 14th Dalai Lama. He's an incredible resource and a pioneer in Reactive Attachment Disorder in children. Steve Feite From sfeite at adelphia.net Tue Jan 13 15:17:17 2009 From: sfeite at adelphia.net (S.A. Feite) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:17:17 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mirror neurons, anyone? In-Reply-To: <05FE8AA2C61943188EE919DF0CD56813@OPTIPLEX> References: <05FE8AA2C61943188EE919DF0CD56813@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <30D3F2F8-D946-4150-8C1A-46D019D70489@adelphia.net> From my notes while reading Dr. Siegel's book: In his recent work _The Mindful Brain: Reflection and Attunement in the Cultivation of Well-Being_, psychiatrist and attachment disorder expert Dan Siegel talks a good bit about how mindfulness meditation is a form of inner attunement, attuning attention to our own intention. "An intention to pay attention to the intention to be mindful." This resonant state is important in social interactions, as attunement is also important to "get" how to attune to others. Some people don't have the ability to attune to others. A piece of our neurobiology may be the culprit: mirror neurons and resonance circuitry. Mirror neurons and the mirror neuron system are neurons that not only fire when you enact a certain intention, they also fire when you watch or attune to someone enacting the same action! From the study of mirror neurons it appears this part of the brain is what's responsible for the natural ability to create representations of others minds. "Mirror neurons demonstrate the profoundly social nature of our brains." What happens when you cannot do this? *You cannot take the position of the other*. You cannot experience empathy. There are probably a host of psychiatric disorders that emerge from this genetic or environmentally caused deficit. A solution may be to learn to attune within through specific forms of meditation which enhance our "resonance circuitry" and basically exercise the atrophied parts of our nervous systems, like a muscle undergoing weight-training. It also raises an interesting question: what is it about certain meditation techniques that they do not cultivate this ability to repair attunement? Is it because of an institutional deficit, i.e. environmentally cued or is it part of the meditation technique itself (or both)? Are all meditation techniques created equal? Are some meditation methods ultimately egocentric and others allocentric? Steve Feite From lharrington at wesleyan.edu Wed Jan 14 08:34:21 2009 From: lharrington at wesleyan.edu (lharrington at wesleyan.edu) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:34:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Milarepa and Gampopa: ifs, ands and butts Message-ID: <49223.140.247.42.187.1231947261.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu> Hi, Does anybody know of any Tibetan commentaries or discussions which deal with the infamous episode of Milarepa exposing his naked buttocks to Gampopa for his final teaching? I'm familiar with Mikyo Dorje's commentary on the verses Milarepa speaks to Gampopa just before, but MD doesn't treat the ensuing episode. Thanks, laura harrington From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 14 09:50:58 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:50:58 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Milarepa and Gampopa: ifs, ands and butts In-Reply-To: <49223.140.247.42.187.1231947261.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu> References: <49223.140.247.42.187.1231947261.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu> Message-ID: What? He mooned Gampopa? A new role for the moon in Buddhist lit. Heh. Joanna K. ============== Hi, Does anybody know of any Tibetan commentaries or discussions which deal with the infamous episode of Milarepa exposing his naked buttocks to Gampopa for his final teaching? I'm familiar with Mikyo Dorje's commentary on the verses Milarepa speaks to Gampopa just before, but MD doesn't treat the ensuing episode. Thanks, laura harrington _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Jan 14 10:31:35 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:31:35 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Milarepa and Gampopa: ifs, ands and butts In-Reply-To: References: <49223.140.247.42.187.1231947261.squirrel@webmail.wesleyan.edu> Message-ID: <496E2177.10307@cola.iges.org> When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie That's the Dharma! My sincere apologies to anyone who doesn't recognize this popular culture reference - for whom I provide this helpful link (via google and tinyurl): http://tinyurl.com/8qrspm Curt jkirk wrote: > What? > He mooned Gampopa? > A new role for the moon in Buddhist lit. > Heh. > > Joanna K. > > ============== > > Hi, > > Does anybody know of any Tibetan commentaries or discussions > which deal with the infamous episode of Milarepa exposing his > naked buttocks to Gampopa for his final teaching? I'm familiar > with Mikyo Dorje's commentary on the verses Milarepa speaks to > Gampopa just before, but MD doesn't treat the ensuing episode. > > From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 14 18:51:21 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:51:21 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Situ Panchen: Creation and Cultural Engagement in 18th-CenturyTibet, Feb 2009 Message-ID: <961F361C796145A6A2E39457A0E3880D@OPTIPLEX> Anyone in the NYC area might like to attend this conference. Joanna ================== The Asian Studies WWW Monitor: Jan 2009, Vol. 16, No. 1 (291) -------------------------------------------------------------- 14 Jan 2009 Situ Panchen: Creation and Cultural Engagement in 18th-Century Tibet, Feb 2009 The Rubin Museum of Art, New York, NY, US. Supplied note: "The Rubin Museum of Art is organizing its first scholarly conference, 'Situ Panchen: Creation and Cultural Engagement in 18th-Century Tibet,' February 7 and 8, 2009. The brilliant polymath Situ Panchen Chokyi Jungne (1700-1774) was influential in multiple domains of cultural and institutional life in 18th-century Tibet. Situ made major contributions to the fields of painting, the literary arts, and medicine. He was also a charismatic leader during a particularly volatile period in Tibetan history, as well as the senior court chaplain in the culturally significant Kingdom of Derge on the Sino- Tibetan border. We have invited eight scholars to present on the many aspects of his cultural production and engagement with the social world of his time in their respective fields, including: patronage and print culture, authenticity and Indic roots, artistic impact in China, politics and sectarian relations, medicine, and literary scholarship. We hope that such a well-rounded and multidisciplinary approach will constitute a significant contribution to an understanding of Tibetan intellectual history in the pivotal 18th century. The conference schedule, abstracts, and registration information can be found at: [the URL below] [...]. This program coincides with opening weekend of the exhibition 'Patron and Painter: Situ Panchen and the Revival of the Encampment Style' (February 6-August 17 [2009]) at the Rubin Museum of Art: http://www.rmanyc.org/exhibitions/upcoming.xml?context=exhibition s/upcoming.xml The conference is being held in conjunction with Columbia University's 'Tibet and the Social Sciences Workshop' http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/indiv/eastasian/Tibetan/ We hope that these two back-to-back events will draw the academic community into NYC for this exciting weekend of programming! - kd." Site contents: * Program: Sat, February 7, 2009; * Program: Sun, February 8, 2009; * Conference Abstracts: (# Remi Chaix (Societes et Cultures en Himalaya, CNRS, Paris) - Situ Panchen and the House of Derge: A Demanding but Beneficial Relationship, # Karl Debreczeny (Rubin Museum of Art) - Situ Panchen' s Artistic Legacy in Yunnan, # Frances Garrett (University of Toronto) - Medical Literature in the Situ Panchen Tradition, # Nancy G. Lin (University of California, Berkeley) - Situ Panchen and the Re-enactment of Buddhist Origins, # Jann Ronis (University of Virginia) - Situ Panchen and Sectarian Relations in Eighteenth-Century Derge: Precursor to the Ecumenical Movement (ris med), # Kurtis R. Schaeffer (University of Virginia) - Situ the Scholar). URL http://www.rmanyc.org/situpanchen Internet Archive (web.archive.org) [the site was not archived at the time of this abstract] Link reported by: Karl Debreczeny (kdebreczeny--at--rmanyc.org) * Resource type [news - documents - study - corporate info. - online guide]: Corporate info. * Publisher [academic - business - government - library/museum - NGO - other]: Museum * Scholarly usefulness [essential - v.useful - useful - interesting - marginal]: Useful * External links to the resource [over 3,000 - under 3,000 - under 1,000 - under 300 - under 100 - under 30]: under 30 Dr T. Matthew Ciolek tmciolek--at--coombs.anu.edu.au Head, Internet Publications Bureau, RSPAS, The National Institute for Asia and the Pacific, The Australian National University, Canberra, Australia ph +61 (02) 6125 3124 fax: +61 (02) 62571893 skype: tmciolek also, Asia Pacific Research Online at www.ciolek.com From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 14 18:58:17 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:58:17 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Columbia Online Research Guide For Modern Tibetan Studies Message-ID: <7B419A2D88B64235A99B272C21564B57@OPTIPLEX> Here's a resource for Tibetan Studies. Joanna ============================= The Asian Studies WWW Monitor: Jan 2009, Vol. 16, No. 1 (291) -------------------------------------------------------------- 14 Jan 2009 Columbia Online Research Guide For Modern Tibetan Studies Columbia University Libraries, Columbia University, New York, NY, US. Self-description: "The COLUMBIA ONLINE RESEARCH GUIDE FOR MODERN TIBETAN STUDIES was compiled by Gray Tuttle, Leila Hadley Luce Assistant Professor of Modern Tibetan Studies, and published for use on Library Web by Lauran Hartley, Tibetan Studies Librarian. It is a navigational tool for library patrons at Columbia University and elsewhere to access bibliographies and other noteworthy resources covering a wide range of subjects in the field of Tibetan Studies. Drawn from an extensive syllabus compiled by Professor Tuttle for his seminar 'Sources for Modern Tibetan History,' the Online Guide in its current version is exceptionally strong in its survey of resources for historical research." Site contents: * Tibetan Studies (Survey Articles, Journals, Book Reviews, Scholarly Blogs, Listservs); * General Bibliographies; * Library Catalogs (North America, Western & Eastern Europe, East Asia, South Asia); * Dictionaries, Encyclopedias (Tibetan Dictionaries, Chinese Dictionaries, Encyclopedias); * Tools, Maps, Images (Maps & Social Data, Photo Images & Archives, Tibetan Fonts & Software, Library Search Conventions); * Periodicals (Western Language, Tibetan & Chinese Post 1950, Tibetan & Chinese Pre 1950); * History (Biography, Religious & Geographic Surveys, Local Histories, Imperial Records, Archival Materials); * Social Sciences [under construction]; * Religious Studies [under construction]; * Language & Literature [under construction]; * Art & Material Culture (Engaging Digital Tibet [http://digitaltibet.ccnmtl.columbia.edu/ ], Research Materials For the Study of Tibetan and Himalayan Art [under conctruction]); * Music [under construction]; * Contact; * Search. URL http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/indiv/eastasian/Tibetan/guide/ind ex.html Internet Archive (web.archive.org) [the site was not archived at the time of this abstract] Link reported by: T. Matthew Ciolek (tmciolek--at--coombs.anu.edu.au) * Resource type [news - documents - study - corporate info. - online guide]: Online Guide * Publisher [academic - business - government - library/museum - NGO - other]: Library * Scholarly usefulness [essential - v.useful - useful - interesting - marginal]: V.Useful [It will be an Essential resource, once it is completed] * External links to the resource [over 3,000 - under 3,000 - under 1,000 - under 300 - under 100 - under 30]: under 30 Dr T. Matthew Ciolek tmciolek--at--coombs.anu.edu.au Head, Internet Publications Bureau, RSPAS, The National Institute for Asia and the Pacific, The Australian National University, Canberra, Australia ph +61 (02) 6125 3124 fax: +61 (02) 62571893 skype: tmciolek also, Asia Pacific Research Online at www.ciolek.com From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Wed Jan 14 20:25:59 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:25:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Mirror neurons, anyone? Message-ID: <701126.18436.qm@web54602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Steve wrote: ?It also raises an interesting question: what is it about certain? meditation techniques that they do not cultivate this ability to? repair attunement? Is it because of an institutional deficit, i.e.? environmentally cued or is it part of the meditation technique itself? (or both)? Are all meditation techniques created equal? Are some? meditation methods ultimately egocentric and others allocentric?? Steve Feite --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, Steve No, not all meditation techniques are created equal, and not all meditation milieus are created equal. ?A few months ago, several of us on Buddha-L confessed our prior involvement with Transcendental Meditation.? Nine years of TM did little to de-stress me and often I felt that my angst and neurosis were at their very worst during those years.? I think that part of the problem was that the ?technique? was divorced from its social, cultural, liturgical and ethical context, so it became just one more tool to put in one?s bag of tricks.? TM aside, people will be people and there are those who turn to Buddhist meditation in precisely that vein?as one more tool.? There?s nothing inherently wrong with that, as there are different levels of practice for different levels of needs.? On the other hand, the milieu in which meditation is practiced will greatly influence how the method is used.? Is the sangha or community healthy and supportive, or is there a subtle competition going on?? Is the teacher genuinely interested in his or her students as people, or merely using them to feed his or her own power trip?? In my opinion, social attunement is socially modeled and socially fostered.? No matter how valuable the meditation method, if an abusive teacher and a dysfunctional sangha take over, it is highly unlikely the method will yield good fruit. Katherine? ?? ? From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 15 10:24:04 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:24:04 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wealth and excess Message-ID: If corporations are treated in law as persons, does that mean they are subject to the law of karma? If so, the link I'm posting for Multinational Monitor fits the requirements of this list, and recent developments in the finance sectors seem to confirm the effects of karma on corporate behavior. See http://www.multinationalmonitor.org/mm2008/112008/weissman.html on their 2008 list of the ten worst corporations. The vast illegal, as well as greedy and delusional, behavior that recently hit the financial markets of the world, seems to me to illustrate the danger of any human entity, whether an individual like Madoff, or corporations like AIG et al., having too much wealth. Yes, the dharma teachings don't inveigh against wealth per se, but the middle way also supports non-excess. It seems that in today's globalised corporate world, the term excess has lost meaning. And of course recently, it also lost tons of wealth. Cheers, Joanna From roblev at sonic.net Wed Jan 14 12:29:22 2009 From: roblev at sonic.net (Robert Leverant) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:29:22 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Milarepa's disciple Message-ID: The disciple that Milarepa showed his buttox to was Rechungpa. He did not moon him. The story goes that Rechungpa wanted and asked Milarepa for a special teaching. This was Milarepa's last visit with him and his last teaching.He told Rechungpa that he never gave this teaching to anyone before and Rechungpa was all puffed up and curious and waited. After a few days, Milarepa said he had to leave and Rechungpa asked again, and Milarepa said he hadn't forgotten. They walked out on the plateau and as he was going to to take the path down the steep mountain, Milarepa said he would give the teaching. He pulled up his cotton shirt that clothed him and showed Rechungpa his buttox which was calloused like hard rock. Milarepa said words to the effect, "that if you want to achieve enlightenment you have to meditate like I did." Then he purportedly had Rechungpa feel his buttox, and said, "To do this, your buttox from meditation will need to become as hard as mine." And then Milarepa went down the mountain. Rechungpa watched until he could no longer see Milarepa. Rechungpa was one of the close in disciples along with Gampopa. For the Kagyu lineage, see: http://www.jutier.net/contenu/kagyu.htm From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 15 11:07:06 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:07:06 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wealth and excess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1232042826.5686.26.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 10:24 -0700, jkirk wrote: > If corporations are treated in law as persons, does that mean > they are subject to the law of karma? Isn't Andrew Jackson supposed to have said that corporations have no bodies and therefore cannot be whipped and have no souls and therefore cannot be condemned to hell? That corporations cannot be punished was for Jackson sufficient reason to avoid giving them any rights and to make sure they were strongly regulated. (This may have been the only wise and noble thing that Jackson ever said as during an otherwise disastrous and despicable presidency.) As for the abhidharma of karma, nothing has karma except things that have a samsk?ra-skandha. The last I checked, no corporation (or nation) has that particular skandha (although many act in skandhalous ways). We may have to abandon the idea of discussing the current meltdown in terms of corporate karma, but we can surely discuss it in terms of the individual karma of quite a few million people who were having so much fun making money that they forgot to inquire into whether the money they thought they were making actually existed. > The vast illegal, as well as greedy and delusional, behavior that > recently hit the financial markets of the world, seems to me to > illustrate the danger of any human entity, whether an individual > like Madoff, or corporations like AIG et al., having too much > wealth. The amount of wealth may not be the root of the problem. The lack of responsible oversight and governmental regulation is at the root of the maldistribution of wealth. As Bhikkhu Buddhadasa never tired of pointing out, the Buddha-dhamma is uncompromisingly socialistic. I think we could safely say that, assessed from a Buddhist perspective, George W. Bush was not a very dharmacentric president. As Bill Moyers has pointed out repeatedly, the tendency of the Bush administration was always to put foxes in the position of guarding the chickens, as a result of which the foxes got fat and the chickens got gobbled up. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 15 11:18:32 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:18:32 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wealth and excess In-Reply-To: <1232042826.5686.26.camel@localhost> References: <1232042826.5686.26.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <6F6AFBEFD7A5445DA9C0CB214EC567A1@OPTIPLEX> Well, if abhidharma doesn't allow a corporation to be an individual, as the US law does (also international law? dunno)--then as with many other facets of law, the corp. as person concept is utterly delusional. However, I still go with the Middle Way view of wealth. There is excess, and excess gets people and things into trouble. Joanna On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 10:24 -0700, jkirk wrote: > If corporations are treated in law as persons, does that mean they are > subject to the law of karma? Isn't Andrew Jackson supposed to have said that corporations have no bodies and therefore cannot be whipped and have no souls and therefore cannot be condemned to hell? That corporations cannot be punished was for Jackson sufficient reason to avoid giving them any rights and to make sure they were strongly regulated. (This may have been the only wise and noble thing that Jackson ever said as during an otherwise disastrous and despicable presidency.) As for the abhidharma of karma, nothing has karma except things that have a samsk?ra-skandha. The last I checked, no corporation (or nation) has that particular skandha (although many act in skandhalous ways). We may have to abandon the idea of discussing the current meltdown in terms of corporate karma, but we can surely discuss it in terms of the individual karma of quite a few million people who were having so much fun making money that they forgot to inquire into whether the money they thought they were making actually existed. > The vast illegal, as well as greedy and delusional, behavior that > recently hit the financial markets of the world, seems to me to > illustrate the danger of any human entity, whether an individual like > Madoff, or corporations like AIG et al., having too much wealth. The amount of wealth may not be the root of the problem. The lack of responsible oversight and governmental regulation is at the root of the maldistribution of wealth. As Bhikkhu Buddhadasa never tired of pointing out, the Buddha-dhamma is uncompromisingly socialistic. I think we could safely say that, assessed from a Buddhist perspective, George W. Bush was not a very dharmacentric president. As Bill Moyers has pointed out repeatedly, the tendency of the Bush administration was always to put foxes in the position of guarding the chickens, as a result of which the foxes got fat and the chickens got gobbled up. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 15 11:50:04 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:50:04 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wealth and excess In-Reply-To: <6F6AFBEFD7A5445DA9C0CB214EC567A1@OPTIPLEX> References: <1232042826.5686.26.camel@localhost> <6F6AFBEFD7A5445DA9C0CB214EC567A1@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1232045405.5686.48.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 11:18 -0700, jkirk wrote: > However, I still go with the Middle Way view of wealth. There is > excess, and excess gets people and things into trouble. Looking at the matter as the Buddha allegedly did, there is nothing inherently unhealthy or unskillful in a society in which some people have an abundance of wealth. I don't recall him ever saying that it's more difficult for a rich man to attain nirvana than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. According to what he is supposed to have taught, when a society becomes ill is when some people are allowed to be in such a state of poverty that they lack the means of making their own livelihoods honestly. Widespread poverty is a possible but not a necessary consequence of some people having a great deal of wealth. One feature of American society that has been making an increasingly big impression on me recently is how utterly incompetent the justice system has been for most of my life, especially since 1980 (the beginning of the Reagan era that may or may not come to end on January 21). People living in conditions of poverty who have recourse to crime often end up in prisons for very long sentences (by far the longest on average in the industrialized world), but in prisons only a handful have the opportunity to learn trades or skills or to get an education that will help them when they get out. As a result, the recidivism rate is ridiculously high. On the other end of the economic scale, wealthy people tend to get much lighter sentences. And of course many of the people who really deserve most to be behind bars are never even investigated, let alone tried and convicted. (What do you reckon the odds are that Bush and Cheney will get their just desserts?) Until this imbalance in justice is addressed, the USA will, I fear, continue to be more of a hell realm than a land of exemplary dharmic conduct. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From curt at cola.iges.org Thu Jan 15 12:32:39 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:32:39 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] reincarnation versus rebirth Message-ID: <496F8F57.6060400@cola.iges.org> Some Buddhists insist on a clear-cut distinction between the words "rebirth" and "reincarnation" - and when doing so they seem to assume that the Buddha was a native speaker of modern English (or possibly French): "The Buddha taught rebirth not reincarnation" or words to that effect. This makes about as much sense to me as claiming that the Buddha was a Democrat, not a Republican. To be born is to be incarnated, no? Ergo, to be reborn is to be reincarnated. I think the distinction might arise from different meanings given to these words by western (possibly French) esotericists in the 18th century or even earlier. But I don't understand what that distinction is, or why some Buddhists have decided to adopt that distinction as a "Buddhist teaching" of some sort? Alternatively it is sometimes claimed that the Buddha taught rebirth, but Hindus teach reincarnation - which makes even less sense unless someone can cite Sanskrit equivalent terms for these two English words - but even that would not explain away the fact that the words "rebirth" and "reincarnate" have exactly the same literal meanings. Curt From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 15 13:19:23 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:19:23 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] reincarnation versus rebirth In-Reply-To: <496F8F57.6060400@cola.iges.org> References: <496F8F57.6060400@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <2B9D2E586B4D476FBC11784263252F62@OPTIPLEX> It's usually unsatisfactory to insist on literal meanings of words. Words have nuances of meaning. Aside from translations from the suttas, there also are translations of 20th c monk commentators who made it clear that rebirth did not mean simply transmigration of something (jiva or whatever). Buddhadasa Bhikkhu is a prime example. See his _Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree_. As I recall, he said that we are born and reborn continually, until we get the deficiencies under control. Thus, we might experience nirvana briefly during meditation, then later fall back into samsara, i.e., be reborn again in the samsaric state. He clearly did not take what is often called transmigration literally--and I'm not sure that the Buddha did either. IMHO, Gotama relied on the notion of literal transmigration to future lives as a pedagogical device, to get the attention of people mired in greed, aversion, and delusion. In any case, nobody can "prove" what the Buddha "really" meant, so we can have fun arguing about it. Joanna ======================================== Some Buddhists insist on a clear-cut distinction between the words "rebirth" and "reincarnation" - and when doing so they seem to assume that the Buddha was a native speaker of modern English (or possibly French): "The Buddha taught rebirth not reincarnation" or words to that effect. This makes about as much sense to me as claiming that the Buddha was a Democrat, not a Republican. To be born is to be incarnated, no? Ergo, to be reborn is to be reincarnated. I think the distinction might arise from different meanings given to these words by western (possibly French) esotericists in the 18th century or even earlier. But I don't understand what that distinction is, or why some Buddhists have decided to adopt that distinction as a "Buddhist teaching" of some sort? Alternatively it is sometimes claimed that the Buddha taught rebirth, but Hindus teach reincarnation - which makes even less sense unless someone can cite Sanskrit equivalent terms for these two English words - but even that would not explain away the fact that the words "rebirth" and "reincarnate" have exactly the same literal meanings. Curt From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Jan 15 13:26:37 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:26:37 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] reincarnation versus rebirth In-Reply-To: <496F8F57.6060400@cola.iges.org> References: <496F8F57.6060400@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1232051197.5686.62.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 14:32 -0500, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > Alternatively it is sometimes claimed that the Buddha taught rebirth, > but Hindus teach reincarnation - which makes even less sense unless > someone can cite Sanskrit equivalent terms for these two English words - > but even that would not explain away the fact that the words "rebirth" > and "reincarnate" have exactly the same literal meanings. The most common terms used by Brahmanical and Jaina and Buddhist (all of which were called Hindus by the Arabs, for Christ's sake) are punarjanma (being born again) and punarbhava (coming into being again). Speakers of English, having nothing better to do, have become obsessive about finding terms that distinguish the idea of a permanent and eternal ?tman moving from body to body (reincarnation) and an impermanent and ever-changing consciousness continuum (samt?na) moving from body to body. Just ignore English-speaking Buddhists. They are idiots. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 16:03:28 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 00:03:28 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wealth and excess In-Reply-To: <1232042826.5686.26.camel@localhost> References: <1232042826.5686.26.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1251101965.20090116000328@gmail.com> Richard wrote: RH> As for the abhidharma of karma, nothing has karma except things that RH> have a samskara-skandha. The last I checked, no corporation (or nation) RH> has that particular skandha (although many act in skandhalous ways). We RH> may have to abandon the idea of discussing the current meltdown in terms RH> of corporate karma, but we can surely discuss it in terms of the RH> individual karma of quite a few million people who were having so much RH> fun making money that they forgot to inquire into whether the money they RH> thought they were making actually existed. Can you explain better that view?. Because one can read: "Monks, these five trades ought not to be plied by a lay-disciple... Trade in weapons, trade in human beings, trade in flesh, trade in intoxicants and trade in poison." when trading by itself is not good or bad, then it seems the trade of these things causes bad kamma. So it seems there is a kamma for the people belonging to these corporations. Behind any genocide there is a table with individuals agreeing in making these crimes. Rest of the people involved are therefore enchained in the success of their actions. Looking the magnitudes of these crimes, a logical response in a civilized world must be the public knowledge of their names and the existence of a World Court to judge all them because crimes against the human kind. This civilized situation didn't exists because politics are in their hands as today even the more analphabet person know. Without civilized solutions in the horizon, there are two logical responses for this situation in accordance with Buddhism: - the killing of these genocides by any means in order to protect billions of lives. - not impeding these genocides avoiding killing to be in accordance with the final truth. In the epitaph of Jingshan Faquin (793) there is a Chan dialogue. The student asked wether, if two messengers knew the station master was slaughtering a sheep for them, and one went to save the sheep, but the other did not, they cause different results of punishments and blessing. Jingshan answered: "the one who saved the sheep was compassionate, and the one who did not save the sheep was emancipated" Can we see the difference? best regards, From at8u at virginia.edu Thu Jan 15 16:01:32 2009 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:01:32 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wealth and excess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496FC04C.1020905@virginia.edu> Richard Hayes wrote: > One feature of American society that has been making an increasingly big > impression on me recently is how utterly incompetent the justice system > has been for most of my life, especially since 1980 (the beginning of > the Reagan era that may or may not come to end on January 21). I just came across Reagan and Thatcher in this essay about kindness being out of fashion: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/jan/03/society-politics The article mentions a host of other people, such as Hume, Rousseau, Freud and Richard Dawkins. I imagine the book introduced by this article would make interesting and relevant reading for Buddhists. Best, Alberto Todeschini From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 15 23:22:32 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 23:22:32 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wealth and excess In-Reply-To: <1232045405.5686.48.camel@localhost> References: <1232042826.5686.26.camel@localhost><6F6AFBEFD7A5445DA9C0CB214EC567A1@OPTIPLEX> <1232045405.5686.48.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 11:18 -0700, jkirk wrote: > However, I still go with the Middle Way view of wealth. There is > excess, and excess gets people and things into trouble. R.H. >.Widespread poverty is a possible but not a necessary consequence of some people having a great deal of wealth. JK: True. In some socio-economic circumstances, however, perhaps necessity is much less of a force than possibility. Our political economy is built on competitive striving aligned with risk-taking, aka opportunism-- or possibility. Necessity is for those without resources, who are forced into debt, theft or worse. Our society has become based on ever expanding debt pyramids more than production. In his teachings to householders, the Buddha warns them off of debt. But if this formula about poverty not being a necessary consequence of wealth had been a social fact in his time, the Buddha would not have found it necessary to teach householders (the lay people who mainly figure as the subject of his teachings for non-monastic living) about being generous and doing the necessary for happiness and well-being. In Anguttara Nikaya he talks about the proper uses of wealth, which he calls "righteous wealth righteously gained" (a description that sure doesn't apply to the likes of Madoff, et al.) (AN 4:61; II: 65-68) The happiness he speaks of is the happiness of well-provided householders, and one he's often addressing is the rich Anathapindika. Sidebar: It's interesting to me that the householders described in these teachings seem to be well-off people, landowners supporting workers and slaves, or farmers (because Bhikkhu Bodhi whose translations I read has used the term wealth earned "by the sweat of your brow," which is more applicable to the small farmer than to the big zamindar. The Buddha of necessity had to be interacting with people who had some education, who could benefit from what he had to say; in these addresses on lay life I don't find evidence that he was also addressing household slaves and servants, beggars or vagabonds. The only time the Buddha verges into sociology seems to be when he is indirectly causing King Ajattashatu to call off going to war against the Vajjians, who meet regularly in their assemblies and carry on their business in harmony---the Vajjians being a description of an uncorrupted society. Recently noticing that individual corruption cases like the Madoff one were multiple here in the states as well as over in India (the Satyam company executive, for ex.) , as well as the rampant fraud and corruption of many of the biggest banks and brokerages here and in the EU, none of which was a one-off, leads me to ponder the old adage that too much money is the root of all evil. These New York mavens were highly educated people who, despite perhaps the wise men and women they might have come across in their lives, were motivated to achieve one thing only--making a humongous pile of money. That they collaborated in building wealth with a kind of money that was even more fictional than the money we all use daily, is even more astounding. The Buddha wasn't a sociologist, he aimed his wisdom at the individual. He doesn't seem to have noticed that a social milieu (in this case a culture of money/wealth ueber alles) can materialise where stinky values are shared by hundreds within the society--a culture of corruption impervious to any drop of wisdom, including even common sense. The Buddha did teach about how individuals (not societies or groups) could fall into such straits when he discusses the attractions of sensual pleasures (money can be included as one of these, since a huge pile of it necessarily pays for more of the rest). He says that it is a "mistaken perception" that causes one to ignore the suffering such pleasures cause, even when burned by them, while striving on for more. (MN 75: Magandiya sutta) How kind he seems to be by attributing such behavior only to mistaken perceptions, when they might really be considered a kind of insanity (I guess in today's terms, neurosis?). I can't recall if early Buddhism shared the yuga theory of the Hindus, with the Kali yuga being the final era of utter cultural corruption, where dharma completely disappears. That is a sociological concept of sorts, in that it focuses on an entire culture rather than on the behavior of individuals, although it depends on the idea that every individual in the culture is behaving badly. It has seemed to me that the recent rise and devolution of the banking and high finance industries was based on a set of shared values. Is a sociology utterly illusory? does whatever is going on basically devolve upon the behavior of individual humans? but that leaves out Arendt's theory of the banality of evil, the "it's not my lookout, I'm just doing my job" mentality. Is this conundrum beyond a Buddhist critique, or what? (Sorry if this comes across as a rant--I didn't mean it that way.) Joanna From gouin.me at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 05:41:30 2009 From: gouin.me at gmail.com (Margaret Gouin) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:41:30 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] reincarnation versus rebirth In-Reply-To: <496F8F57.6060400@cola.iges.org> References: <496F8F57.6060400@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: 2009/1/15 Curt Steinmetz > > To be born is to be incarnated, no? Ergo, to be reborn is to be > reincarnated. > > Actually, to be born in an incarnate (physical) form only applies to two realms--human and animal. The other four realms aren't physical forms, so how can rebirth there be reincarnation? From c_castell at yahoo.com Fri Jan 16 06:05:28 2009 From: c_castell at yahoo.com (Catalina) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 05:05:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] reincarnation versus rebirth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <153375.82244.qm@web111315.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Margaret Gouin said: "Actually, to be born in an incarnate (physical) form only applies to two realms--human and animal. The other four realms aren't physical forms, so how can rebirth there be reincarnation?" You are just kidding,? are you?? or if not, could you just explain a Buddhist scholar source? Thank you Catalina From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Jan 16 06:16:34 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 08:16:34 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] reincarnation versus rebirth References: <496F8F57.6060400@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <00af01c977dc$a7b8b3e0$2101a8c0@Dan> > > Actually, to be born in an incarnate (physical) form only applies to two > realms--human and animal. The other four realms aren't physical forms, so > how can rebirth there be reincarnation? > Au contraire -- all beings born in the kama loka (which includes hell beings, pretas, animals, asuras and most devas) have physical bodies, as do all those born in the rupa-loka (other types of devas). The only ones whose physicality is questionable are those born in arupya-dhatu; habitats and lifeforms in that realm were added to the cosmology quite late in the development of Buddhist cosmology -- and there were debates about the status of the beings there (e.g., can they hear if they don't have physical ears? Buddhist counterpart to counting the number of angels on the head of a pin.) Dan Lusthaus From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Jan 16 07:28:04 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:28:04 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] reincarnation versus rebirth In-Reply-To: References: <496F8F57.6060400@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <49709974.7070801@cola.iges.org> "To be born" also has a distinctly physical connotation to it - perhaps even more so that "incarnate". Neither the Buddha nor Julius Caesar were technically "born" since they did not pass through the "birth canal" on their way out into the world. Curt Margaret Gouin wrote: > 2009/1/15 Curt Steinmetz > > >> To be born is to be incarnated, no? Ergo, to be reborn is to be >> reincarnated. >> >> Actually, to be born in an incarnate (physical) form only applies to two >> > realms--human and animal. The other four realms aren't physical forms, so > how can rebirth there be reincarnation? > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From pvera at health.usf.edu Fri Jan 16 07:37:41 2009 From: pvera at health.usf.edu (Vera, Pedro L.) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:37:41 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] reincarnation versus rebirth In-Reply-To: <49709974.7070801@cola.iges.org> References: <496F8F57.6060400@cola.iges.org> , <49709974.7070801@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <33C44E04D25FE54C906EB61FBAA4B9CD7339189F63@MAILSERVER3.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu> >"To be born" also has a distinctly physical connotation to it - perhaps >even more so that "incarnate". Neither the Buddha nor Julius Caesar were >technically "born" since they did not pass through the "birth canal" on >their way out into the world. >Curt Using this definition, one can add to the illustrious company of Buddha and Julius Caesar the many (tens of thousands?; hundreds of thousands?; maybe, don't have the actual numbers) lesser humans delivered by Caeseran (heh, Caesar again) section every year. Technically then, C-sections seem to be the most expeditious and effective way of escaping the cycle of rebirth/reincarnation. Beats the hell out of meditating (or whatever other practice is advocated as conducive) an entire, or several, lifetimes. Pedro From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Jan 16 09:21:26 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:21:26 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] reincarnation versus rebirth In-Reply-To: <33C44E04D25FE54C906EB61FBAA4B9CD7339189F63@MAILSERVER3.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu> References: <496F8F57.6060400@cola.iges.org> , <49709974.7070801@cola.iges.org> <33C44E04D25FE54C906EB61FBAA4B9CD7339189F63@MAILSERVER3.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu> Message-ID: <4970B406.4040905@cola.iges.org> It seems impractical, though. How does one go about arranging to be "born" via C-section? In fact, if one were capable of pulling that off the clear implication is that an advanced stage of siddhidom has already been attained. Curt Vera, Pedro L. wrote: >> "To be born" also has a distinctly physical connotation to it - perhaps >> even more so that "incarnate". Neither the Buddha nor Julius Caesar were >> technically "born" since they did not pass through the "birth canal" on >> their way out into the world. >> Curt >> > > Using this definition, one can add to the illustrious company of Buddha and Julius Caesar the many (tens of thousands?; hundreds of thousands?; maybe, don't have the actual numbers) lesser humans delivered by Caeseran (heh, Caesar again) section every year. Technically then, C-sections seem to be the most expeditious and effective way of escaping the cycle of rebirth/reincarnation. Beats the hell out of meditating (or whatever other practice is advocated as conducive) an entire, or several, lifetimes. > > Pedro > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From pvera at health.usf.edu Fri Jan 16 09:36:11 2009 From: pvera at health.usf.edu (Vera, Pedro L.) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:36:11 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] reincarnation versus rebirth In-Reply-To: <4970B406.4040905@cola.iges.org> References: <496F8F57.6060400@cola.iges.org> , <49709974.7070801@cola.iges.org> <33C44E04D25FE54C906EB61FBAA4B9CD7339189F63@MAILSERVER3.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu>, <4970B406.4040905@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <33C44E04D25FE54C906EB61FBAA4B9CD7339189F64@MAILSERVER3.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu> I agree that it poses some interesting challenges. However, I see, at least, three solutions. 1) This is the most difficult one: Arrange to have your delivery through c-section in one of your previous lives (as you suggested). 2) Assume (or declare) that the doctors/health care practictioners that performed the c-section, and possibly your parents who agreed to it, are true bodhisattvas and directly responsible for your liberation from samsara. As such, one would owe them a tremendous debt of gratitute. 3) Finally (and I think this is the easiest and most lucrative option), you could CLAIM that you planned in previous lifetimes which would attest to your advanced accomplishments and allow you to start recruiting disciples. A few robes, a few chants later, some incense, a church, some TV time for teledharma, and you're all set. Of course, you'd be competing with all the other people making claims of a similar nature (and claims to the public's wallet), but I have great confidence in people's willingness to believe anything. Besides, you'd have a better chance of making money that keeping it in JPMorgan, Citigroup stock. Gotta love free-rein capitalism! Pedro >It seems impractical, though. How does one go about arranging to be >"born" via C-section? In fact, if one were capable of pulling that off >the clear implication is that an advanced stage of siddhidom has already >been attained. Curt From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 16 10:24:31 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:24:31 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] reincarnation versus rebirth In-Reply-To: <33C44E04D25FE54C906EB61FBAA4B9CD7339189F63@MAILSERVER3.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu> References: <496F8F57.6060400@cola.iges.org> , <49709974.7070801@cola.iges.org> <33C44E04D25FE54C906EB61FBAA4B9CD7339189F63@MAILSERVER3.hscnet.hsc.usf.edu> Message-ID: <1232126672.6441.1.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 09:37 -0500, Vera, Pedro L. wrote: > Technically then, C-sections seem to be the most expeditious and > effective way of escaping the cycle of rebirth/reincarnation. A far better way is to swim into a condom before you have the bad fortune of teaming up with a fertile egg. -- Richard From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 16 10:34:14 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:34:14 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wealth and excess In-Reply-To: <496FC04C.1020905@virginia.edu> References: <496FC04C.1020905@virginia.edu> Message-ID: <4D98D1927B4E421DA28AF2AC0C452500@OPTIPLEX> Thanks Alberto for this article link. Here's a telling excerpt that fits right in with what I wrote last night about the insanity of money-madness-excess: ""A sign of health in the mind", Donald Winnicott wrote in 1970, "is the ability of one individual to enter imaginatively and accurately into the thoughts and feelings and hopes and fears of another person; also to allow the other person to do the same to us." To live well, we must be able to identify imaginatively with other people, and allow them to identify with us. Unkindness involves a failure of the imagination so acute that it threatens not just our happiness but our sanity. Caring about others, as Jean-Jacques Rousseau argued, is what makes us fully human. We depend on each other not just for our survival but for our very being. The self without sympathetic attachments is either a fiction or a lunatic. " Wall St pyramid schemes and money-mad accumulative delusions could only thrive under the absence of caring described in the article (a review of a book on the phenomenon of dumping kindness from human behavior.) Best, Joanna ======================= I just came across Reagan and Thatcher in this essay about kindness being out of fashion: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/jan/03/society-politics The article mentions a host of other people, such as Hume, Rousseau, Freud and Richard Dawkins. I imagine the book introduced by this article would make interesting and relevant reading for Buddhists. Best, Alberto Todeschini _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From franz at mind2mind.net Fri Jan 16 11:25:30 2009 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:25:30 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wealth and excess In-Reply-To: <4D98D1927B4E421DA28AF2AC0C452500@OPTIPLEX> References: <496FC04C.1020905@virginia.edu> <4D98D1927B4E421DA28AF2AC0C452500@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <45836D4E-BEC8-4D80-8837-666F5047B0A9@mind2mind.net> Gang, Thanks, Joanna, for quoting the part of the article that quotes D. W. Winnicott. That made me go and read the whole thing. Lovely and also terribly sad. Mandatory Buddhist content: Winnicott's embrace of kindness grows directly from his view of the person as fundamentally inter-personal. We exist most fully--Winnicott might even say *only*--when we play in the potential space, a space that is neither part of our interior world, nor part of the external world, but not separate from either. One might say it is the place Thich Nhat Hanh calls "interbeing." Not everyone can do this, of course, as Winnicott says in the article. Rather, it is an achievement of love, the sort of love that arises from wisdom and compassion. Franz On Jan 16, 2009, at 9:34 AM, jkirk wrote: > > Thanks Alberto for this article link. > Here's a telling excerpt that fits right in with what I wrote > last night about the insanity of money-madness-excess: > > ""A sign of health in the mind", Donald Winnicott wrote in 1970, > "is the ability of one individual to enter imaginatively and > accurately into the thoughts and feelings and hopes and fears of > another person; also to allow the other person to do the same to > us." To live well, we must be able to identify imaginatively with > other people, and allow them to identify with us. Unkindness > involves a failure of the imagination so acute that it threatens > not just our happiness but our sanity. Caring about others, as > Jean-Jacques Rousseau argued, is what makes us fully human. We > depend on each other not just for our survival but for our very > being. The self without sympathetic attachments is either a > fiction or a lunatic. " > > Wall St pyramid schemes and money-mad accumulative delusions > could only thrive under the absence of caring described in the > article (a review of a book on the phenomenon of dumping kindness > from human behavior.) > > Best, Joanna > ======================= > > I just came across Reagan and Thatcher in this essay about > kindness being out of fashion: > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/jan/03/society-politics > > The article mentions a host of other people, such as Hume, > Rousseau, Freud and Richard Dawkins. I imagine the book > introduced by this article would make interesting and relevant > reading for Buddhists. > > Best, > > Alberto Todeschini From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Fri Jan 16 14:08:51 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:08:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Charter for Compassion Message-ID: <877869.33496.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Theologian/historian of religions Karen Armstrong won the TED prize last year and I didn't find out about it till yesterday.? Here's her wonderful speech on the TED website, where she invites the world to launch an international, inter-faith Charter for Compassion: ? http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/karen_armstrong_makes_her_ted_prize_wish_the_charter_for_compassion.html ? A nice thing about watching this 28-minute video on the TED website (as opposed to youtube.com) is that the lower bar divides the?speech into theme segments.? This is the website?for the Charter for Compassion: http://www.charterforcompassion.org Katherine ? From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Fri Jan 16 14:17:36 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:17:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Wealth and excess Message-ID: <676983.41750.qm@web54607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Joanna, could it be that the Buddha?didn't "do sociology" and emphasized the individual precisely because he took his own context for granted, i.e., a context in which a family or clan "wego" prevailed over an individual ego? ? Katherine From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 16 15:25:47 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:25:47 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lukewarm American Buddhists Message-ID: <1232144748.5795.32.camel@localhost> The Pew Foundation loves to publish studies on Americans and their religious beliefs. A recent one that I have been looking at asks people how important religion is in their lives. Of all the religious denominations asked, Buddhists (all lumped together as a single religion, in contrast to eight flavors of Christian) were next to the bottom of the list in saying that religion is very important (35%) or somewhat important (38%) to them. Jews (again, all lumped together) were at the bottom of the list with 31% and 41% saying very and somewhat important respectively. The most enthusiastic about religion were Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, in both of which more than 80% reported that religion is very important to them. 24% of Buddhists and 28% of Jews said religion is not at all important to them. (What the crying hell does it MEAN to say that religion is important, anyway? Toss that question out. It's too meaningless to warrant a response.) Here's another interesting finding of the folks at Pew Foundation. All Buddhists interviewed were asked whether they believe in nirvana. (Holy tornadoes, Batman, another meaningless question!) Of those Buddhists who did not punch the interviewer in the face for asking a stupid question, 62% said they believe in nirvana, 19% said they don't believe and 18% said they do not know. (Does this mean 18% of American Buddhists believe Stephen Batchelor when he says we can't know such things? Pew forgot to ask that one.) Here's an interesting one: people who admitted to be Buddhists were asked about nirvana, while Hindus were asked whether they believe in reincarnation. But Buddhists were not asked whether they believe in reincarnation, and Hindus were not asked whether they believe in moksha. Why not? Want to know how many American Buddhists believe in miracles? I'll tell you anyway. 61%. And 37% of American Buddhists say they believe in angels and demons. American Jews are much more reasonable. Only 21% of them believe in angels and demons. But if you really want your money back, consider this: 14% of atheists say they believe in angels and demons. It would seem there are not many Buddhists among the atheists. 39% of American Buddhists say they are "absolutely certain" there is a supreme god. (Of course 8% of American *atheists* also say they are absolutely certain there is a supreme god. Do they even know what atheism means? And what are we to make of the 17% of self-styled agnostics who say they are absolutely certain there is a supreme god? Are they absolutely certain they are agnostics?) Look, I know that when it comes to religion Americans are probably the most confused and ignorant people in all of recorded history, but these Pew statistics completely baffle me. You can find out for yourself just how confused Americans are about religion at http://religions.pewforum.org/comparisons . Look for a file called report2religious-landscape-study-chapter-1.pdf. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Jan 16 20:16:16 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:16:16 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lukewarm American Buddhists In-Reply-To: <1408_1232144901_49710A05_1408_1_1_1232144748.5795.32.camel@localhost> References: <1408_1232144901_49710A05_1408_1_1_1232144748.5795.32.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1232162176.8652.29.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 15:25 -0700, Richard Hayes wrote: > Look, I know that when it comes to religion Americans are probably the > most confused and ignorant people in all of recorded history, but these > Pew statistics completely baffle me. I still maintain that Americans are more confused about religion than most people, but I have started reading the full report put out by the Pew Charitable Trusts, and the more I see of it the more amazed I am at how incompetent the people designing the questions were. For example, how would you expect a Buddhist to choose between: "I believe my religion is the one true religion that leads to eternal life?" and "I believe many religions lead to eternal life." (Whatever happened to nirvana, which is, as I understand it, most decidedly not eternal life?) Well, it turns out that 86% of American Buddhists surveyed said that they thing that many religions lead to eternal life. Now the way I would want to answer that is that many religions have a capacity for keeping people distracted from the unpleasant reality of their own mortality, but there is NO religion that leads to eternal life. Sarvam anityam and all that, eh? Only Hindus (at 89%) are more enthusiastic than Buddhists about religious pluralism, and Jews are just a few points less enthusiastic than Buddhists. The religion with the largest percentage of their polled membership stating the conviction that only their religion leads to eternal life is Jehovah's Witnesses (80%), followed by Mormons (57%). Islam comes in at 33%. (Not wanting to alienate patriotic Americans bent on depicting Islam as a fanatical religion of murderous savages, Pew helpfully provides a footnote pointing out that most American Muslims are highly educated professionals whose views probably do not reflect those of Muslims worldwide. Oddly enough, they forgot to mention that 40% of American Buddhists are highly educated Jewish psychoanalysts whose views probably do not reflect those of anyone west of Park Avenue in upper Manhattan.) I have yet to find in which of the Pew categories Unitarians and Quakers would fit into. I guess they are lumped in with Baha'i, Subud, Theosophy and the Cherokee wolf clan in the category called "Other religions." -- Richard Hayes From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 16 21:00:10 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:00:10 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wealth and excess In-Reply-To: <676983.41750.qm@web54607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <676983.41750.qm@web54607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9942D4A5DF4545FEBFF0CCCDABD4ECAD@OPTIPLEX> Hi Katherine, Yes, that was probably a large part of it. Also, don't "spiritual" teachers (or whatever one should call them) usually tend to address the individual as THE moral subject, to be liberated or reformed, with the goal in view being that reformation of a population will end up being a reformation of society. So there's no concept of "culture" here, of the power of shared values influencing behavior. Maybe that's the illusion I was getting at, but if so it's a powerful illusion that runs huge social aggregations that share a culture. ============================= Joanna, could it be that the Buddha?didn't "do sociology" and emphasized the individual precisely because he took his own context for granted, i.e., a context in which a family or clan "wego" prevailed over an individual ego? ? Katherine From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 16 22:00:17 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:00:17 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wealth and excess In-Reply-To: <1251101965.20090116000328@gmail.com> References: <1232042826.5686.26.camel@localhost> <1251101965.20090116000328@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Vicente, The Buddha left punishment up to the secular rulers, kings or chiefs in his day (and of course consequences to the working of karma). Mass crimes would not be eradicated by mass killing. Only a few members of any conspiracy get their just deserts in secular courts. The rest stay on to perpetuate the mass culture that led to the crimes in the first place. I don't see that the Chan story helps in this instance--Jingshan probably felt it was better to eat than to go hungry? A Buddhist choice is to figure out how these things keep on keeping on, and to help deal with them as we are able. If we arrive at some plausible answers, then we can try to spread the answers around. As individuals living in a mass society, I can't see how individuals are able to remediate much more than that. The Buddha's 'society' was composed of many little outfits here and there, scattered over the Gangetic plain and in the hills, a few towns, but probably nothing like a mass society. Joanna ======================================== -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Vicente Gonzalez "Monks, these five trades ought not to be plied by a lay-disciple... Trade in weapons, trade in human beings, trade in flesh, trade in intoxicants and trade in poison." when trading by itself is not good or bad, then it seems the trade of these things causes bad kamma. So it seems there is a kamma for the people belonging to these corporations. Behind any genocide there is a table with individuals agreeing in making these crimes. Rest of the people involved are therefore enchained in the success of their actions. Looking the magnitudes of these crimes, a logical response in a civilized world must be the public knowledge of their names and the existence of a World Court to judge all them because crimes against the human kind. This civilized situation didn't exists because politics are in their hands as today even the more analphabet person know. Without civilized solutions in the horizon, there are two logical responses for this situation in accordance with Buddhism: - the killing of these genocides by any means in order to protect billions of lives. - not impeding these genocides avoiding killing to be in accordance with the final truth. In the epitaph of Jingshan Faquin (793) there is a Chan dialogue. The student asked wether, if two messengers knew the station master was slaughtering a sheep for them, and one went to save the sheep, but the other did not, they cause different results of punishments and blessing. Jingshan answered: "the one who saved the sheep was compassionate, and the one who did not save the sheep was emancipated" Can we see the difference? best regards, _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Fri Jan 16 22:20:17 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:20:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Wealth and excess Message-ID: <378735.87149.qm@web54601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi, Joanna ? Yes, true enough.??I'm trying to get at where this emphasis on the individual is coming from.? The Buddha lived in a time when everything and everyone had its own dharma: minerals, plants, animals, humans, castes. ?By emphasizing the individual, he was empowering people to take their own liberation into their own hands.? Rather than having a?designated class of people?dedicated to the task of achieving enlightenment, any and every individual could do the same.? In this day and age, it can be useful and insightful for us to see the social and cultural influences at work in our lives (?I?m not as uniquely individual as 'I' thought 'I' was in ?my? choices in life?).? But in the Buddha?s time, it was probably comforting and empowering to see that an individual, irrespective of traditional social roles, could liberate him/herself (?I myself, regardless of social norms, can follow this path of liberation if I so wish?).? Katherine ? ============================= Hi Katherine, Yes, that was probably a large part of it. Also, don't "spiritual" teachers (or whatever one should call them) usually tend to address the individual as THE moral subject, to be liberated or reformed, with the goal in view being that reformation of a population will end up being a reformation of society. So there's no concept of "culture" here, of the power of shared values influencing behavior. Maybe that's the illusion I was getting at, but if so it's a powerful illusion that runs huge social aggregations that share a culture. ============================= Joanna, could it be that the Buddha?didn't "do sociology" and emphasized the individual precisely because he took his own context for granted, i.e., a context in which a family or clan "wego" prevailed over an individual ego? ? Katherine From anemone at ghvalley.net Sat Jan 17 08:13:06 2009 From: anemone at ghvalley.net (Perennial Favorites) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 08:13:06 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lukewarm American Buddhists References: <1408_1232144901_49710A05_1408_1_1_1232144748.5795.32.camel@localhost> <1232162176.8652.29.camel@localhost> Message-ID: > On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 15:25 -0700, Richard Hayes wrote: > >> but I have started reading the full report put out by the > Pew Charitable Trusts, and the more I see of it the more amazed I am at > how incompetent the people designing the questions were. For example, > how would you expect a Buddhist to choose between: "I believe my > religion is the one true religion that leads to eternal life?" and "I > believe many religions lead to eternal life." It seems to me that all those questionnaires designed to pigeonhole you are like that, including the Enneagram test.* They often give you choices between two things you don't think or believe. I was getting really disgusted by that until I realized my real life can be like that, too. I can either do the dishes (don't want to) or let them pile up and fill the kitchen with clutter and grime (don't like that either). I never get the third choice in life where I could check the box "have enough money to hire someone else to do my dirty work." Oh. When I put it that way, I don't like that choice either. Diana Capen * I'm a four. Didn't sound like a very evolved number.... From jayarava at yahoo.com Sat Jan 17 10:40:40 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 09:40:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Pali and Asoka Message-ID: <695096.70723.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have been browsing through Cardona and Jains 'Indo-aryan Languages' and Salomon's 'Indian Epigraphy'... It seems that the P?li language of the Tipitaka most resembles the prakrit of the Asokan inscription at Girn?r (in modern day Gujurat), although it makes sporadic use of Magadhisms. That is to say that P?li as we know it is essentially a western Indian dialect. This raises the issue of why the western dialect was used for the scriptures when everyone involved in them, from the Buddha down to Asoka, having lived in Magadha most likely spoke an eastern dialect. (Doesn't it?) In Asoka's heartland the inscriptions are all in Magadhi (ie the prakrit of the Magadha region). However with the death of Asoka and the collapse of the Mauryan dynasty, inscriptions in this language cease - apparently they cease abruptly and completely. Eventually inscriptions are found in the western dialect as far afield as Orissa and Amar?vati suggesting that the western dialect spread from it's original homeland and became a lingua franca "by the last two centuries BCE". Presumably this had something to do with filling the power vacuum left by the Mauryans? If the texts were transmitted to Sri Lanka during Asoka's lifetime why weren't they in the language that he most likely spoke? Gujurat was a bit of a back water at this time if the history books are anything to go by. Asoka inscribed his words in Magadha and at the frontiers of his kingdom, but not much in between - Gujurat was at the edge of his realm. Seems to me there are three possibilities: 1. The texts were originally remembered in Magadhi (or at least an eastern dialect of some description), but some Buddhists (perhaps after a schism or due to missionary activity) went to Girn?r and translated the texts into the local dialect. The texts were then transmitted from Girn?r to Sri Lanka during Asoka's time. 2. The texts were transmitted to Sri Lanka in Magadhi during the life of Asoka, but later translated into the western dialect in Sri Lanka. 3. The texts were translated from Magadhi into the western dialect when it became the lingua franca of Northern India. The history of this is far from clear to me, but definitely some time after Asoka died. Perhaps a generation or two - how long does it take for a language to change? The texts were subsequently transmitted to Sri Lanka in P?li. I know of no evidence to support option 1. and I gather Frauwallner thought Mathura was the likely launching point. Option 2 seems pretty unlikely - Sri Lanka is a long way from Magadha, with South Indian languages intervening. The Sinhalese script diverged from Brahmi by the 3rd century BCE suggesting that they were not part of the mainstream even then. I can't think of why they would suddenly change the language of the texts to another foreign language. They seem unlikely to want to change the language at all, but if they did it would seem that Sinhalese was a more likely candidate for them to choose. And again I know of no evidence to suggest that such a translation took place in Sri Lanka. Which leaves option 3. even though it conflicts with the traditional narratives of the history. The texts were transmitted some time after the death of Asoka - I'm guessing at least two generations - sometime in the early to mid 2nd century BCE. Is this news to anyone but me? There was apparently a major revision of the Sri Lankan Canon in the 12th century based on Burmese grammars - heavily influenced by Sanskrit grammarians. Could this account for a option 2. scenario? Is there a 4th option to explain the information? Best wishes Jayarava From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 17 12:27:41 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:27:41 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religion and political affliliation Message-ID: <1232220461.7179.22.camel@localhost> With apologies to all the many buddha-l denizens who do not live in the United States, there is just one more set of statistics I thought some people might be interested in. The Pew Charitable Trust conducted some surveys near the time of the 2008 elections to determine how religious denomination correlates with political party membership. The full table is much more complex than the following summary; for example, the full table acknowledges that there are different types of Jews (although it does not acknowledge that there are different kinds of Muslims or Buddhists). As the United States prepares for the inauguration of its next president, mull over the following statistics. "R" means either either Republican or "leaning toward Republican" and "D" means either registered Democrat or leaning toward Democrat. (The Pew table separates those out.) There were no data for the Green Party. D R Denomination 77 10 Unitarians and other pluralistic denominations 67 18 Buddhist 65 23 Jewish* 63 11 Muslim 56 23 Unaffiliated 48 33 Catholic 44 32 Protestant** 22 65 Mormon 15 10 Jehovah's Witness*** * This is a composite of Reform, Conservative and Orthodox ** This is a composite of evangelical and mainline, Caucasian and African-American *** The majority of JWs refused to answer the question A survey of non-Asian Buddhists in America that was done by James Coleman in the 1990s showed 4% were registered Republicans and 9% were registered Green. The Pew survey did not separate Asian and non-Asian Buddhists; my guess is their political leanings are probably significantly different, but that guess is based on purely anecdotal evidence (which as Dign?ga reminds us is no evidence at all). -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Jan 17 12:46:13 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:46:13 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lukewarm American Buddhists In-Reply-To: References: <1408_1232144901_49710A05_1408_1_1_1232144748.5795.32.camel@localhost> <1232162176.8652.29.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1232221573.7179.41.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2009-01-17 at 08:13 -0700, Perennial Favorites wrote: > It seems to me that all those questionnaires designed to pigeonhole you are > like that, including the Enneagram test.* I wish I could remember the source of a sentiment I heard expressed recently. The basic idea was that the final stage in the disempowerment of the electorate comes when the only people who pay attention to one's views are pollsters. With only a few exceptions (and none that I can think of offhand), most surveys and polls are made up of such poorly formulated questions that the results are almost perfectly meaningless. Their only value is recreational. It is worth reflecting on the question of why polls and surveys have become such a prominent feature of life in the United States. Is it because no one else is listening? About the many Enneagram tests that have been devised, none of them is of more than heuristic value. If one hankers to take more than a casual interest in the enneagram of personality, there is no substitute for a lot of reading and careful self-observation and working with groups. > * I'm a four. Didn't sound like a very evolved number.... None of the personality types sounds very attractive in their more unhealthy manifestations. The tendency of the unhealthy four is to dwell on one's victimhood and suffering. Their favorite song is "Nobody knows the trouble I've seen," and their least favorite is Dylan's "Dear Landlord," especially the line that goes "I know you've suffered much, but in this you are not so unique." Bob Dylan, by the way is supposed to be a Four with a strong Five wing. Does that make you feel any better? (Imagine how I felt when I discovered that a fairly representative Nine, my type, was Ronald Reagan. I damn near committed sewerpipes.) -- Richard Hayes From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 19:17:57 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 03:17:57 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wealth and excess In-Reply-To: References: <1232042826.5686.26.camel@localhost> <1251101965.20090116000328@gmail.com> Message-ID: <226229609.20090118031757@gmail.com> jkirk wrote: j> The Buddha left punishment up to the secular rulers, kings or j> chiefs in his day (and of course consequences to the working of j> karma). Mass crimes would not be eradicated by mass killing. j> Only a few members of any conspiracy get their just deserts in j> secular courts. The rest stay on to perpetuate the mass culture j> that led to the crimes in the first place. sorry maybe my message was not enough clear with the use of the word "genocides" for both the authors and the events (I hope my practice in this list will improve my English). The question was knowing if you (or anyone) will kill only one individual to save billion of lifes. Or in the contrary, you don't kill one individual then allowing the death of billion people. There are many famous examples to illustrate this problem. One is the famous episode of a Boddhisatva travelling in a boat, who killed one man in order to save 500 Bodhisattvas. It is frequently used today: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/ctbw.htm Another one is with Mahakasyapa, who wanted to save a whole village from attackers by rescuing magically all the people inside his bowl. But when he looked inside the bowl it was plenty of blood. The two are interesting because both men were arhants, therefore they known about delusion, live and death. However, they cannot resist the impulse to help others, despite they known it was not accordance with the final truth but a deluded action. In these episodes, an interesting thing is the power of compassion but also to affirm the self and the attachment to a deluded Reality, even they can drive to defend killing with heavy arguments. These episodes shows how compassion can surpass the final knowledge of Reality, except in the case of a Buddha. And from another side, it forces to ask if enlightened activity also can be empty of compassion, and therefore where is the difference regarding living in a empty dwelling. j> I don't see that the Chan story helps in this instance--Jingshan j> probably felt it was better to eat than to go hungry? I think Jingshan said that one was compassionate because he saved the sheep before any other consideration. The other one was emancipated because he show awareness of the delusion of life and death. Both are the main attitudes in Buddhist Ethics in front these problems; knowing if they must be looked from compassion or from emancipation arguments. The dialogue is to solve that, I think best regards, From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 17 22:15:48 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 22:15:48 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wealth and excess In-Reply-To: <378735.87149.qm@web54601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <378735.87149.qm@web54601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1C8D2E468E794A6BB22C0FCA65745544@OPTIPLEX> Good point and contrast. JK ================== Hi, Joanna ? Yes, true enough.??I'm trying to get at where this emphasis on the individual is coming from.? The Buddha lived in a time when everything and everyone had its own dharma: minerals, plants, animals, humans, castes. ?By emphasizing the individual, he was empowering people to take their own liberation into their own hands.? Rather than having a?designated class of people?dedicated to the task of achieving enlightenment, any and every individual could do the same.? In this day and age, it can be useful and insightful for us to see the social and cultural influences at work in our lives (?I?m not as uniquely individual as 'I' thought 'I' was in ?my? choices in life?).? But in the Buddha?s time, it was probably comforting and empowering to see that an individual, irrespective of traditional social roles, could liberate him/herself (?I myself, regardless of social norms, can follow this path of liberation if I so wish?). Katherine ? ============================= Hi Katherine, Yes, that was probably a large part of it. Also, don't "spiritual" teachers (or whatever one should call them) usually tend to address the individual as THE moral subject, to be liberated or reformed, with the goal in view being that reformation of a population will end up being a reformation of society. So there's no concept of "culture" here, of the power of shared values influencing behavior. Maybe that's the illusion I was getting at, but if so it's a powerful illusion that runs huge social aggregations that share a culture. ============================= Joanna, could it be that the Buddha?didn't "do sociology" and emphasized the individual precisely because he took his own context for granted, i.e., a context in which a family or clan "wego" prevailed over an individual ego? ? Katherine _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 17 22:39:53 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 22:39:53 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religion and political affliliation In-Reply-To: <1232220461.7179.22.camel@localhost> References: <1232220461.7179.22.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <5FF75CB6D2AC460E9BF39F376017A14E@OPTIPLEX> What happened to the Hindus, who're missing from the list? They could hardly be considered "pluralistic" here in the USA, where it's Sanatandharma all the way. JK ============== With apologies to all the many buddha-l denizens who do not live in the United States, there is just one more set of statistics I thought some people might be interested in. The Pew Charitable Trust conducted some surveys near the time of the 2008 elections to determine how religious denomination correlates with political party membership. The full table is much more complex than the following summary; for example, the full table acknowledges that there are different types of Jews (although it does not acknowledge that there are different kinds of Muslims or Buddhists). As the United States prepares for the inauguration of its next president, mull over the following statistics. "R" means either either Republican or "leaning toward Republican" and "D" means either registered Democrat or leaning toward Democrat. (The Pew table separates those out.) There were no data for the Green Party. D R Denomination 77 10 Unitarians and other pluralistic denominations 67 18 Buddhist 65 23 Jewish* 63 11 Muslim 56 23 Unaffiliated 48 33 Catholic 44 32 Protestant** 22 65 Mormon 15 10 Jehovah's Witness*** * This is a composite of Reform, Conservative and Orthodox ** This is a composite of evangelical and mainline, Caucasian and African-American *** The majority of JWs refused to answer the question A survey of non-Asian Buddhists in America that was done by James Coleman in the 1990s showed 4% were registered Republicans and 9% were registered Green. The Pew survey did not separate Asian and non-Asian Buddhists; my guess is their political leanings are probably significantly different, but that guess is based on purely anecdotal evidence (which as Dign?ga reminds us is no evidence at all). -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 17 23:02:05 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 23:02:05 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wealth and excess In-Reply-To: <226229609.20090118031757@gmail.com> References: <1232042826.5686.26.camel@localhost><1251101965.20090116000328@gmail.com> <226229609.20090118031757@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6D7A68B6874A4AAB97FCDDE69852510B@OPTIPLEX> "These episodes shows how compassion can surpass the final knowledge of Reality, except in the case of a Buddha." Well, but there is also the case of the Buddha himself (not a bodhisattva or a mere arhant) taming the enraged elephant that Devadatta sent to kill him...to me this signifies that the Buddha can do anything, contrary to the rest of us, who would either run for our lives or pull out a death ray and shoot the monster. Maybe the stories you remind us of were invented to make us think more deeply about life, death, compassion, etc., or even to remind us of absurdity --that is, if there is room for absurdity in Buddhism (?). Joanna =================================== Sorry maybe my message was not enough clear with the use of the word "genocides" for both the authors and the events (I hope my practice in this list will improve my English). The question was knowing if you (or anyone) will kill only one individual to save billion of lifes. Or in the contrary, you don't kill one individual then allowing the death of billion people. There are many famous examples to illustrate this problem. One is the famous episode of a Boddhisatva travelling in a boat, who killed one man in order to save 500 Bodhisattvas. It is frequently used today: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/ctbw.htm Another one is with Mahakasyapa, who wanted to save a whole village from attackers by rescuing magically all the people inside his bowl. But when he looked inside the bowl it was plenty of blood. The two are interesting because both men were arhants, therefore they known about delusion, live and death. However, they cannot resist the impulse to help others, despite they known it was not accordance with the final truth but a deluded action. In these episodes, an interesting thing is the power of compassion but also to affirm the self and the attachment to a deluded Reality, even they can drive to defend killing with heavy arguments. These episodes shows how compassion can surpass the final knowledge of Reality, except in the case of a Buddha. And from another side, it forces to ask if enlightened activity also can be empty of compassion, and therefore where is the difference regarding living in a empty dwelling. j> I don't see that the Chan story helps in this instance--Jingshan j> probably felt it was better to eat than to go hungry? I think Jingshan said that one was compassionate because he saved the sheep before any other consideration. The other one was emancipated because he show awareness of the delusion of life and death. Both are the main attitudes in Buddhist Ethics in front these problems; knowing if they must be looked from compassion or from emancipation arguments. The dialogue is to solve that, I think best regards, _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From brburl at charter.net Sat Jan 17 23:05:54 2009 From: brburl at charter.net (Bruce Burrill) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 00:05:54 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memiors and Dictionary In-Reply-To: <1232221573.7179.41.camel@localhost> References: <1408_1232144901_49710A05_1408_1_1_1232144748.5795.32.camel@localhost> <1232162176.8652.29.camel@localhost> <1232221573.7179.41.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090118000336.03448de0@charter.net> Those naughty Russians ignoring copy-rights and that sort of thing: http://dharma.org.ru/board/topic1221.html Tools for .djvo extension files. http://djvu.org/resources/ From jkirk at spro.net Sat Jan 17 23:07:03 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 23:07:03 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lunar new year prison releases Message-ID: <4E51F8BF599849BEA8B1296E5A3E8C37@OPTIPLEX> Richard was recently on about our injustice system and overfilled prisons. Here's a practice that we might consider emulating: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090116/ap_on_re_as/as_vietnam_press_ freedom_2 HANOI, Vietnam - Vietnam will grant an early release to a journalist jailed for his aggressive coverage of a government corruption scandal, an official said Friday. Le The Tiem, Vice Minister of Public Security, says journalist Nguyen Viet Chien will be released Saturday along with more than 15,000 prisoners as part of an annual Lunar New Year prison amnesty. Thirty-six foreign nationals will also be freed, including a British citizen, a French citizen and 19 Chinese. The Lunar New Year festivities, Vietnam's biggest holiday, start on Jan. 26.[etc] From danterosati at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 23:21:40 2009 From: danterosati at gmail.com (Dante Rosati) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 01:21:40 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memiors and Dictionary In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090118000336.03448de0@charter.net> References: <1408_1232144901_49710A05_1408_1_1_1232144748.5795.32.camel@localhost> <1232162176.8652.29.camel@localhost> <1232221573.7179.41.camel@localhost> <7.0.1.0.2.20090118000336.03448de0@charter.net> Message-ID: <7b4904b30901172221hd764cbal1c760dddb7c86982@mail.gmail.com> god bless them, each and every one. one good russkie pirate link deserves another: http://www.buddism.ru/_TibetanResearchCentre/ (scroll down for goodies) On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 1:05 AM, Bruce Burrill wrote: > Those naughty Russians ignoring copy-rights and that sort of thing: > > http://dharma.org.ru/board/topic1221.html > > Tools for .djvo extension files. > > http://djvu.org/resources/ > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From curt at cola.iges.org Sun Jan 18 09:18:21 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:18:21 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religion and political affliliation In-Reply-To: <5FF75CB6D2AC460E9BF39F376017A14E@OPTIPLEX> References: <1232220461.7179.22.camel@localhost> <5FF75CB6D2AC460E9BF39F376017A14E@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <4973564D.9040302@cola.iges.org> According to the ARIS study there were 766,000 Hindus in the US in 2001. Here is a link to the 47 page pdf for the 2001 American Religious Identification Study at CUNY: http://tinyurl.com/ay8k3u This is higher than the numbers for several important Christian sects, including Seventh Day Adventists, Eastern Orthodox, and Mennonites. It is over three times the number for the sect that my maternal grandparents belonged to: Christian Science. It is also over 100,000 more than the number of UU's. In 2001 there were 100,000 more Hindus than there were members of the Assemblies of God (Sarah Palin's church) in 1990. Hinduism, by the way, is an exceedingly pluralist religion. "Hinduism promotes not only tolerance and respect for differences in belief and religion, but also acceptance of those paths as legitimate." Statement on "Hindu Pluralism" American Hindu Foundation: http://www.hinduamericanfoundation.org/hintro_pluralism.htm "Hinduism is the largest pluralistic religions in the world. It teaches that there are many paths, many sages, many holy books and that no religion can claim any exclusie or final representation of truth." Dr. David Frawley "A Hindu Call for Religious Pluralism": http://www.dharmacentral.com/articles/plural.htm "Hinduism has a great deal to offer to the West. Its inherent pluralistic teachings offer the best resolution to the question of how people of different religions can co-exist peacefully in a multi-faith society." London Vivekananda Cetre website: http://www.vivekananda.btinternet.co.uk/ "The deeper reason for this social and religious pluralism in India perhaps lies in the fact that the Divine, as described by Sri Aurobindo, has infinite potentiality and thus manifests itself in infinite forms, each of which, through the process of evolution, try to express their essential Divine character." "Sri Aurobindo's vision of spiritual universalism": http://www.auroville.org/journals&media/avtoday/august_04/sri_vision.htm Curt jkirk wrote: > What happened to the Hindus, who're missing from the list? They > could hardly be considered "pluralistic" here in the USA, where > it's Sanatandharma all the way. > JK > > ============== > > With apologies to all the many buddha-l denizens who do not live > in the United States, there is just one more set of statistics I > thought some people might be interested in. The Pew Charitable > Trust conducted some surveys near the time of the 2008 elections > to determine how religious denomination correlates with political > party membership. The full table is much more complex than the > following summary; for example, the full table acknowledges that > there are different types of Jews (although it does not > acknowledge that there are different kinds of Muslims or > Buddhists). As the United States prepares for the inauguration of > its next president, mull over the following statistics. "R" means > either either Republican or "leaning toward Republican" and "D" > means either registered Democrat or leaning toward Democrat. (The > Pew table separates those out.) There were no data for the Green > Party. > > D R Denomination > 77 10 Unitarians and other pluralistic denominations > 67 18 Buddhist > 65 23 Jewish* > 63 11 Muslim > 56 23 Unaffiliated > 48 33 Catholic > 44 32 Protestant** > 22 65 Mormon > 15 10 Jehovah's Witness*** > > * This is a composite of Reform, Conservative and Orthodox > ** This is a composite of evangelical and mainline, Caucasian and > African-American > *** The majority of JWs refused to answer the question > > A survey of non-Asian Buddhists in America that was done by James > Coleman in the 1990s showed 4% were registered Republicans and 9% > were registered Green. The Pew survey did not separate Asian and > non-Asian Buddhists; my guess is their political leanings are > probably significantly different, but that guess is based on > purely anecdotal evidence (which as Dign?ga reminds us is no > evidence at all). > > -- > Richard Hayes > Department of Philosophy > University of New Mexico > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 18 10:36:43 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:36:43 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memiors and Dictionary In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090118000336.03448de0@charter.net> References: <1408_1232144901_49710A05_1408_1_1_1232144748.5795.32.camel@localhost><1232162176.8652.29.camel@localhost><1232221573.7179.41.camel@localhost> <7.0.1.0.2.20090118000336.03448de0@charter.net> Message-ID: Thanks, Bruce. Looking over his titles I hit on these: The Scientific Method of Thinking: An Introduction to Dialectical Materialism by Edward Conze, Ph. D. (London, 1935. 168pp.) Spain To-Day: Revolution and Counter-Revolution by Edward Conze. (New York, 1936. 156 pp.) -so was Conze a commie? If he was, how did he deal with the Cultural Revolution trashing major monasteries in Tibet and China, disrobing monks and destroying mss? Joanna ===================================================== Those naughty Russians ignoring copy-rights and that sort of thing: http://dharma.org.ru/board/topic1221.html Tools for .djvo extension files. http://djvu.org/resources/ _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 18 10:47:00 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:47:00 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religion and political affliliation In-Reply-To: <4973564D.9040302@cola.iges.org> References: <1232220461.7179.22.camel@localhost><5FF75CB6D2AC460E9BF39F376017A14E@OPTIPLEX> <4973564D.9040302@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <9F760B147B5F48469AE908955D3CC517@OPTIPLEX> Thanks for the stats on Hindus in the USA. My comment about pluralism referred to Hinduism in the USA, not to Hinduism in general. Here, if any practicing Hindus are asked, they'll tend to say they practice the sanaatan dharma, an 'omnium gatherum' concept that helps to ward off what to them are probably boring questions or ones that strike them as annoyingly snoopy. Joanna ================================== -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Curt Steinmetz Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:18 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Religion and political affliliation According to the ARIS study there were 766,000 Hindus in the US in 2001. Here is a link to the 47 page pdf for the 2001 American Religious Identification Study at CUNY: http://tinyurl.com/ay8k3u This is higher than the numbers for several important Christian sects, including Seventh Day Adventists, Eastern Orthodox, and Mennonites. It is over three times the number for the sect that my maternal grandparents belonged to: Christian Science. It is also over 100,000 more than the number of UU's. In 2001 there were 100,000 more Hindus than there were members of the Assemblies of God (Sarah Palin's church) in 1990. Hinduism, by the way, is an exceedingly pluralist religion. http://www.hinduamericanfoundation.org/hintro_pluralism.htm http://www.dharmacentral.com/articles/plural.htm http://www.vivekananda.btinternet.co.uk/ http://www.auroville.org/journals&media/avtoday/august_04/sri_vis ion.htm Curt ====================== jkirk wrote: > What happened to the Hindus, who're missing from the list? They could > hardly be considered "pluralistic" here in the USA, where it's > Sanatandharma all the way. > JK > From cfynn at gmx.net Sun Jan 18 11:05:40 2009 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 00:05:40 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religion and political affliliation In-Reply-To: <4973564D.9040302@cola.iges.org> References: <1232220461.7179.22.camel@localhost> <5FF75CB6D2AC460E9BF39F376017A14E@OPTIPLEX> <4973564D.9040302@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <49736F74.1000409@gmx.net> Curt Steinmetz wrote: > According to the ARIS study there were 766,000 Hindus in the US in 2001. > Here is a link to the 47 page pdf for the 2001 American Religious > Identification Study at CUNY: > http://tinyurl.com/ay8k3u > This is higher than the numbers for several important Christian sects, > including Seventh Day Adventists, Eastern Orthodox, and Mennonites. Yes but there is a bewildering number of Hindu sects and sub-sects. For a start you have different sects following Siva, Krishna, Ram, Kali, Durga, Ganapati etc, etc, and then groups following a whole variety of gurus who call themselves avatars. On cable TV here we get a mostly Hindu "faith channel" - there was also Jain guru on there the other day - much more entertaining and much more variety than the Xtian channels I've seen in the States - Chris Thimphu, Bhutan From franz at mind2mind.net Sun Jan 18 11:05:55 2009 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:05:55 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mirror neurons, anyone? In-Reply-To: <30D3F2F8-D946-4150-8C1A-46D019D70489@adelphia.net> References: <05FE8AA2C61943188EE919DF0CD56813@OPTIPLEX> <30D3F2F8-D946-4150-8C1A-46D019D70489@adelphia.net> Message-ID: Steve et al., Thanks for mentioning Siegel again and sharing a few of your notes. Siegel's notion of learning attunement through exercising our mirror neurons strikes me as the neurological equivalent of what attachment theorists and object relations psychologists say is the fundamental process of becoming fully human. Of course they call it by different names and see it as an interpersonal process grounded in the relationship of the maternal object and the infant. I see it this way, myself. So it is fascinating to me to read of this neuropsychological parallel process. But of course this is how things ought to be: the neurological, the internal, and the interpersonal are three dimensions of what is essentially one process, no? Does Siegel talk about attachment theory? People like Alan Fonagy (who calls this process "mentalization")? In any case, I plainly must read Siegel's work. Oh, and, um, Buddhism. Very important. Franz Metcalf From brburl at charter.net Sun Jan 18 12:10:41 2009 From: brburl at charter.net (Bruce Burrill) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 13:10:41 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memiors and Dictionary In-Reply-To: References: <1408_1232144901_49710A05_1408_1_1_1232144748.5795.32.camel@localhost> <1232162176.8652.29.camel@localhost> <1232221573.7179.41.camel@localhost> <7.0.1.0.2.20090118000336.03448de0@charter.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090118130801.0510b7f0@charter.net> He was a Marxist in his early life as a response to the Nazi movement,. I do believe he gave that up. At 11:36 AM 1/18/2009, you wrote: > >Thanks, Bruce. > >Looking over his titles I hit on these: >The Scientific Method of Thinking: An Introduction to Dialectical >Materialism >by Edward Conze, Ph. D. (London, 1935. 168pp.) >Spain To-Day: Revolution and Counter-Revolution >by Edward Conze. (New York, 1936. 156 pp.) > >-so was Conze a commie? If he was, how did he deal with the >Cultural Revolution >trashing major monasteries in Tibet and China, disrobing monks >and destroying mss? > >Joanna >===================================================== > >Those naughty Russians ignoring copy-rights and that sort of >thing: > >http://dharma.org.ru/board/topic1221.html > >Tools for .djvo extension files. > >http://djvu.org/resources/ > >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From gary.gach at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 12:31:08 2009 From: gary.gach at gmail.com (gary.gach) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:31:08 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 47, Issue 38 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <598baadd0901181131i32b6d663hde674b1b7e052805@mail.gmail.com> i've heard tell from a san francisco bay area buddhist who knew him that conze was a communist, joanne. was a surprise to me too. next time i see that friend i'll inquire about what conze's reaction had been to mao and let you know, but reading one of the other texts from the russian online library, he severely condemns ussr so apparently he was openly vocal about stalin. franz, i've put in a request for siegel's book at the public library and it's been about 2 months now, but the psychologist who told me about him initially explained siegel in terms of attachment theory, so maybe siegel does too. i get the sense we're talking about the brain as a social organ, rather than being confined to a single skull. as for infant / maternal relations, a disciple of namkai norbu rinpoche told me he thought was where we get our first notion of luminosity of being in an other, but i confess i don't fully appreciate this yet (as you can tell from my clumsy expression of it). as i know nothing about attachment theory and object relations theory, but want to become fully human (!), as you say, i wonder if you might summarize for me and any other buddha-l'ers what's the basic premise(s) and any key work(s) to bone up on (and practice?) in attachment theory and object relation theory. since i've learned about mirror neurons i've wondered if they are contributory to experiencing personal enlightening moments from being around spiritual evolved persons, or even just reading works by them. gary http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/where-buddha-meets-freud From sfeite at adelphia.net Sun Jan 18 13:04:00 2009 From: sfeite at adelphia.net (S.A. Feite) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 15:04:00 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mirror neurons, anyone? In-Reply-To: References: <05FE8AA2C61943188EE919DF0CD56813@OPTIPLEX> <30D3F2F8-D946-4150-8C1A-46D019D70489@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <218D8594-B317-4DA1-A7CD-CBEAED902914@adelphia.net> On Jan 18, 2009, at 1:05 PM, Franz Metcalf wrote: > Does Siegel talk about attachment theory? People like Alan Fonagy (who > calls this process "mentalization")? In any case, I plainly must read > Siegel's work. Siegel is one of the moving forces in that field. The only reason I know is because we adopted a child who, unbeknownst to us, had severe Reactive Attachment Disorder. The leading clinical person in the field, Daniel Hughes, was able to develop strategies based on Siegel's insights and work. _The Mindful Brain_ does talk about attachment and more specifically "secure attachment" but not in a whole lot of detail. Steve Feite From jehms at xs4all.nl Sun Jan 18 13:47:10 2009 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:47:10 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 47, Issue 38 In-Reply-To: <598baadd0901181131i32b6d663hde674b1b7e052805@mail.gmail.com> References: <598baadd0901181131i32b6d663hde674b1b7e052805@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4973954E.6050107@xs4all.nl> gary.gach schreef: > i've heard tell from a san francisco bay area buddhist who knew him that > conze was a communist, joanne. was a surprise to me too. next time i see > that friend i'll inquire about what conze's reaction had been to mao and let > you know, but reading one of the other texts from the russian online > library, he severely condemns ussr so apparently he was openly vocal about > stalin. > > Hold your horses, Gary, I'm not sure about Conze's affinity with Mao, but being a Marxist doesn't entail being a communist in the Russian sense, nor in the Chinese or Cuban sense. Lenin made his own kind of communism, a kind that Marx never intended. In fact Sout-American communism or socialism is quite another cup of tea as East-Asian communism. Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 14:13:29 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 22:13:29 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Wealth and excess In-Reply-To: <6D7A68B6874A4AAB97FCDDE69852510B@OPTIPLEX> References: <1232042826.5686.26.camel@localhost><1251101965.20090116000328@gmail.com> <226229609.20090118031757@gmail.com> <6D7A68B6874A4AAB97FCDDE69852510B@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1094461425.20090118221329@gmail.com> jkirk wrote: j> Well, but there is also the case of the Buddha himself (not a j> bodhisattva or a mere arhant) taming the enraged elephant that j> Devadatta sent to kill him...to me this signifies that the Buddha j> can do anything, contrary to the rest of us, who would either run j> for our lives or pull out a death ray and shoot the monster. normally yes but there are many cases of people who don't feel fear in front attacks of lions, tigers, elephants or whatever. j> Maybe the stories you remind us of were invented to make us think j> more deeply about life, death, compassion, etc., or even to j> remind us of absurdity --that is, if there is room for absurdity j> in Buddhism (?). I think yes. Because absurdity exists when there is a lack of logics. Logics exists because the lack of knowledge. Knowledge exists because the lack of Wisdom. Wisdom exists because the lack of ignorance. So feeling absurdity can drive to Enlightenment as any other thing when is felt as an anomaly regarding Wisdom. When we felt logics and knowledge without realizing that both are an anomaly then they cannot drive to nowhere. Buddha's choice of preaching to non-existent beings lacking of a self to be liberated, was an absurdity. A complete anomaly. Buddha moved apparently to save the sheep. So the Jingshan answer is not of easy solution. I don't believe that you, me, or any other people here, would avoid the killing of only one being allowing the death of 4 billion. This thought of solidarity and interdependence causes in us an immediate comfort. While the other choice causes uncomfortable feelings. You know, Christians says that God love us in front accusations of a perpetual genocide in the Earth. However, we must accept that God is not a genocide at least in heavenly terms, in where maybe the time is a little bit longer, or who knows. Because it is a fact that Christ was crucified instead we received a fiery response of that God, with a reputation enough famous inside the Old Gospel However, De Beers and similar they are prosperous lineages promoting genocides with billion deaths in Africa. Maybe the western mind felt herself emancipated, although here the contradiction is when we are talking of a supposed Christian humanitarian legacy. 60% of Congo minerals transactions are made in the Toronto markets. For the rest, Canada is an exemplar and humanitarian country. Nothing to do with Cuba, Venezuela and the axis of the Evil. So maybe the difference is in Emancipation, and they don't need saving the sheep. In fact we are trying to live in a beyond-land, leaving behind God, Buddha, or whatever to feel some freedom. It seems to be an Enlightened way asphalted with the corpses of the infra-humans Africans and other species well catalogued with a cold, precise, scientific mind. best regards, From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 18 14:46:37 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:46:37 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religion and political affliliation In-Reply-To: <5FF75CB6D2AC460E9BF39F376017A14E@OPTIPLEX> References: <1232220461.7179.22.camel@localhost> <5FF75CB6D2AC460E9BF39F376017A14E@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1232315198.5676.2.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2009-01-17 at 22:39 -0700, jkirk wrote: > What happened to the Hindus, who're missing from the list? They were missing from my list but not from the Pew survey. American Hindus ranked as by far the most pluralistic of the religions polled. Only a tiny percentage (around 5% at most) said they regard their religion as having a monopoly on truth and the possibility of soteriology. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 18 14:55:39 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:55:39 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memiors and Dictionary In-Reply-To: References: <1408_1232144901_49710A05_1408_1_1_1232144748.5795.32.camel@localhost> <1232162176.8652.29.camel@localhost> <1232221573.7179.41.camel@localhost> <7.0.1.0.2.20090118000336.03448de0@charter.net> Message-ID: <1232315740.5676.8.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2009-01-18 at 10:36 -0700, jkirk wrote: > -so was Conze a commie? In the 1930s Conze, like most sensible people, was a Communist. His first published works were denunciations of the Fascist movement in Spain. He writes that one day he was walking down the streets of London and happened to see a Buddha statue in a window and a book by D.T. Suzuki. This brought about an enormous shift in his thinking. He dedicates at least one of his early writings on Buddhism to D.T. Suzuki, whom he calls his kalyana-mitra. -- Richard From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 18 15:29:53 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 15:29:53 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddha-l Digest, Vol 47, Issue 38 In-Reply-To: <4973954E.6050107@xs4all.nl> References: <598baadd0901181131i32b6d663hde674b1b7e052805@mail.gmail.com> <4973954E.6050107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Apologies for using the word "commie" so carelessly--it wasn't meant as a political assertion, just lazy. Joanna ============== gary.gach schreef: > i've heard tell from a san francisco bay area buddhist who knew him > that conze was a communist, joanne. was a surprise to me too. next > time i see that friend i'll inquire about what conze's reaction had > been to mao and let you know, but reading one of the other texts from > the russian online library, he severely condemns ussr so apparently he > was openly vocal about stalin. > > Hold your horses, Gary, I'm not sure about Conze's affinity with Mao, but being a Marxist doesn't entail being a communist in the Russian sense, nor in the Chinese or Cuban sense. Lenin made his own kind of communism, a kind that Marx never intended. In fact Sout-American communism or socialism is quite another cup of tea as East-Asian communism. Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 18 15:34:36 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 15:34:36 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religion and political affliliation In-Reply-To: <1232315198.5676.2.camel@localhost> References: <1232220461.7179.22.camel@localhost><5FF75CB6D2AC460E9BF39F376017A14E@OPTIPLEX> <1232315198.5676.2.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <642D414F6E6B4426973F463D0E8A5B63@OPTIPLEX> Seems I'm in the dark about what "pluralistic"means in this discussion...please advise! JK ==================================== On Sat, 2009-01-17 at 22:39 -0700, jkirk wrote: > What happened to the Hindus, who're missing from the list? They were missing from my list but not from the Pew survey. American Hindus ranked as by far the most pluralistic of the religions polled. Only a tiny percentage (around 5% at most) said they regard their religion as having a monopoly on truth and the possibility of soteriology. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Jan 18 17:44:56 2009 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 17:44:56 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religion and political affliliation In-Reply-To: <642D414F6E6B4426973F463D0E8A5B63@OPTIPLEX> References: <1232220461.7179.22.camel@localhost> <5FF75CB6D2AC460E9BF39F376017A14E@OPTIPLEX> <1232315198.5676.2.camel@localhost> <642D414F6E6B4426973F463D0E8A5B63@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <1232325896.9753.5.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2009-01-18 at 15:34 -0700, jkirk wrote: > Seems I'm in the dark about what "pluralistic"means > in this discussion...please advise! The question asked by Pew researchers was (paraphrasing) "Do you believe your religion is in sole possession of the truth and is alone in offering a path to eternal life." The term "pluralistic" is not used by Pew; I am using it to describe the position held by those who say they do NOT believe their religion is the sole possessor of truth and the only way to eternal life. Close to 90% of American Hindus said their religion is not the sole path to eternal life. The late Willard Oxtoby of University of Toronto described religious pluralism as not only the acknowledgement but the celebration of there being more than one legitimate religion. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From bernie.simon at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 18:14:40 2009 From: bernie.simon at gmail.com (Bernard Simon) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 20:14:40 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memiors and Dictionary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70C207D3-C612-40B9-828C-4681D2F5CB43@gmail.com> > -so was Conze a commie? If he was, how did he deal with the > Cultural Revolution > trashing major monasteries in Tibet and China, disrobing monks > and destroying mss? The answer is in his autobiography, Memoirs of a Modern Gnostic. From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 18 20:34:50 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 20:34:50 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memiors and Dictionary In-Reply-To: <70C207D3-C612-40B9-828C-4681D2F5CB43@gmail.com> References: <70C207D3-C612-40B9-828C-4681D2F5CB43@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3D4BC35CCEC048A8AE9900D0593751A4@OPTIPLEX> A check on amazon.com indicates that there are 2 vols to this item, one of which is no longer available, and that the publisher was something called Samizdat Publishing. However, if one googles that name, one comes up with this website, that shows no sign of ever having been involved in book publishing -- http://www.samizdatpublishing.net/ --leading me to infer that the publisher of the same name cited for this book by amazon went defunct. The first vol. is offered at the royal price of $120.45 by one used book dealer on amazon. How are the mighty fallen.........? Joanna ============== > -so was Conze a commie? If he was, how did he deal with the Cultural > Revolution trashing major monasteries in Tibet and China, disrobing > monks and destroying mss? The answer is in his autobiography, Memoirs of a Modern Gnostic. From brburl at charter.net Sun Jan 18 20:43:10 2009 From: brburl at charter.net (Bruce Burrill) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:43:10 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memiors and Dictionary In-Reply-To: <3D4BC35CCEC048A8AE9900D0593751A4@OPTIPLEX> References: <70C207D3-C612-40B9-828C-4681D2F5CB43@gmail.com> <3D4BC35CCEC048A8AE9900D0593751A4@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090118213914.051075d8@charter.net> At 09:34 PM 1/18/2009, you wrote: >A check on amazon.com indicates that there are 2 vols to this >item, one of which is no longer available, and that the publisher >was something called Samizdat Publishing. The book was privately published, and was available fairly cheaply, when it was available. "Samizdat " as a publisher is a Conze joke. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samizdat As interesting as the first two volume are, it is volume three that deals with all sort of different personalities that Conze dealt with over the years and was only to be published after his death. His "wife" apparently burned it. From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 20:52:35 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 04:52:35 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memiors and Dictionary In-Reply-To: <3D4BC35CCEC048A8AE9900D0593751A4@OPTIPLEX> References: <70C207D3-C612-40B9-828C-4681D2F5CB43@gmail.com> <3D4BC35CCEC048A8AE9900D0593751A4@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <917376581.20090119045235@gmail.com> jkirk wrote: j> A check on amazon.com indicates that there are 2 vols to this j> item, one of which is no longer available, and that the publisher j> was something called Samizdat Publishing. two first volumes are in internet in djvu format. The third volume, containing some wild opinions of some Buddhologists and other things, it never was published. Apparently, the explanation is the negative of his heirs because it can be offensive for still alive people. google this chain: "Memoirs of a Modern Gnostic" djvu best regards, From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 18 20:44:51 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 20:44:51 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memiors and Dictionary In-Reply-To: <70C207D3-C612-40B9-828C-4681D2F5CB43@gmail.com> References: <70C207D3-C612-40B9-828C-4681D2F5CB43@gmail.com> Message-ID: Meanwhile--seems it has been converted into an e-book available on this site: http://www.torrentz.com/553c2e747b7588481faaa50ddff7c29792367c8c but I have no idea how to figure out how to use this site. Anybody ever seen this one before? I guess ILL has to be the resource of choice. JK ============================ > -so was Conze a commie? If he was, how did he deal with the Cultural > Revolution trashing major monasteries in Tibet and China, disrobing > monks and destroying mss? The answer is in his autobiography, Memoirs of a Modern Gnostic. From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 21:03:42 2009 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 05:03:42 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memiors and Dictionary In-Reply-To: References: <70C207D3-C612-40B9-828C-4681D2F5CB43@gmail.com> Message-ID: <13119372.20090119050342@gmail.com> I send you both by e-mail jkirk wrote: j> Meanwhile--seems it has been converted into an e-book available j> on this site: j> http://www.torrentz.com/553c2e747b7588481faaa50ddff7c29792367c8c j> but I have no idea how to figure out how to use this site. j> Anybody ever seen this one before? j> I guess ILL has to be the resource of choice. j> JK j> ============================ >> -so was Conze a commie? If he was, how did he deal with the j> Cultural >> Revolution trashing major monasteries in Tibet and China, j> disrobing >> monks and destroying mss? j> The answer is in his autobiography, Memoirs of a Modern Gnostic. j> _______________________________________________ j> buddha-l mailing list j> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com j> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -- From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 18 21:11:58 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:11:58 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memiors and Dictionary In-Reply-To: <13119372.20090119050342@gmail.com> References: <70C207D3-C612-40B9-828C-4681D2F5CB43@gmail.com> <13119372.20090119050342@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey thanks, Vicente! It's time I read something by the great man. Joanna ======================= -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Vicente Gonzalez Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:04 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memiors and Dictionary I send you both by e-mail jkirk wrote: j> Meanwhile--seems it has been converted into an e-book available on j> this site: j> http://www.torrentz.com/553c2e747b7588481faaa50ddff7c29792367c8c j> but I have no idea how to figure out how to use this site. j> Anybody ever seen this one before? j> I guess ILL has to be the resource of choice. j> JK j> ============================ >> -so was Conze a commie? If he was, how did he deal with the j> Cultural >> Revolution trashing major monasteries in Tibet and China, j> disrobing >> monks and destroying mss? j> The answer is in his autobiography, Memoirs of a Modern Gnostic. j> _______________________________________________ j> buddha-l mailing list j> buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com j> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -- _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Sun Jan 18 21:15:19 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:15:19 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memiors and Dictionary In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090118213914.051075d8@charter.net> References: <70C207D3-C612-40B9-828C-4681D2F5CB43@gmail.com><3D4BC35CCEC048A8AE9900D0593751A4@OPTIPLEX> <7.0.1.0.2.20090118213914.051075d8@charter.net> Message-ID: <5B9BEB29602741549A9D3FA08FA57D83@OPTIPLEX> Of course, I did and do know what Samizdat were in the USSR. But as one can see, the term has achieved wider circulation. JK ---------------------- The book was privately published, and was available fairly cheaply, when it was available. "Samizdat " as a publisher is a Conze joke. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samizdat As interesting as the first two volume are, it is volume three that deals with all sort of different personalities that Conze dealt with over the years and was only to be published after his death. His "wife" apparently burned it. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From curt at cola.iges.org Sun Jan 18 21:37:05 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 23:37:05 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Religion and political affliliation In-Reply-To: <1232325896.9753.5.camel@localhost> References: <1232220461.7179.22.camel@localhost> <5FF75CB6D2AC460E9BF39F376017A14E@OPTIPLEX> <1232315198.5676.2.camel@localhost> <642D414F6E6B4426973F463D0E8A5B63@OPTIPLEX> <1232325896.9753.5.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <49740371.7080908@cola.iges.org> I would propose a "pluralism scale": (1) have successfully exterminated all other religions (2) have mostly eliminated all other religions and will soon finish the job (3) have eliminated a great many other religions but still have a long way to go (4) have only managed to eliminate a few other religions (5) would like to begin eliminating other religions but have not been able to yet (6) hate all other religions but it has never occurred to you to actually try to start wiping them out (7) tolerance of other (ie, "wrong") religions (8) respect for other religions (9) celebration of diversity (10) actual preference for religions other than your own Curt Richard Hayes wrote: > On Sun, 2009-01-18 at 15:34 -0700, jkirk wrote: > > >> Seems I'm in the dark about what "pluralistic"means >> in this discussion...please advise! >> > > The question asked by Pew researchers was (paraphrasing) "Do you believe > your religion is in sole possession of the truth and is alone in > offering a path to eternal life." The term "pluralistic" is not used by > Pew; I am using it to describe the position held by those who say they > do NOT believe their religion is the sole possessor of truth and the > only way to eternal life. Close to 90% of American Hindus said their > religion is not the sole path to eternal life. > > The late Willard Oxtoby of University of Toronto described religious > pluralism as not only the acknowledgement but the celebration of there > being more than one legitimate religion. > > From dharmafarer at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 19:21:39 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:21:39 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Seminar papers Message-ID: For those interested in the papers of the recently concluded Buddhist seminar (Malaysia) on "Closer to Reality", they are available FREE for download until early Feb: http://www.c2rc.org/ With metta, Piya Tan -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From zelders.yh at wxs.nl Tue Jan 20 08:35:22 2009 From: zelders.yh at wxs.nl (Zelders.YH) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:35:22 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memoirs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090120011641.024ce958@wxs.nl> Joanna wrote : >It's time I read something by the great man And I hope it gives you as great a pleasure as it gave me. A pleasure by the way that - sadly - Richard denied himself. Being a Conze fan as well as a Hayes adept I remember the stroke of cognitive dissonance when I read what Richard wrote about Conze on Buddha-l in February 2004. This for instance on February 17th : "There is probably nothing that makes me question Conze's credentials more than his failure to master the speech precepts. Even in his scholarly writings, the anger and contempt are much in evidence. It's as if his view of Buddhism was that if one gets the gnostic vision, then one wins the right to go around calling everyone else fools. The whole tone of his writing is so offensive that I can barely bear to read it. I have therefore never been tempted to open his autohagiography." Funny, because untill that moment I had thought about them as kindred souls of some sort. Still do, in fact. Two days earlier Richard had written : "Look, the guy [Conze] was an unrepentant mystic. Mystics are constitutionally incapable of grasping the first thing about Buddhism". Rereading that sentence I wonder ; aren't enneagram type nine Unitarian Universalist Quakers some kind of mystics ? And what is "the first thing about Buddhism" that mystics can't grasp ? You asked what kind of a commie Conze was ? He describes himself as "a Tolstoyan religious socialist". Something like the European Thirties equivalent of a Unitarian Universalist Quaker, I guess. You will find the link to the published parts of his autobiography, 'Memoirs of a Gnostic', right on the page for which Bruce Burrill provided the adress : http://dharma.org.ru/board/topic1221.html. Both are djvu-files. Bruce also gave this adress ; http://djvu.org/resources/ where you can download the necessary stand-alone djvu-viewer and the browser plug-in. It's all well worth the trouble. Be happy, Herman Zelders From franz at mind2mind.net Tue Jan 20 12:12:26 2009 From: franz at mind2mind.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:12:26 -0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mirror neurons, anyone? In-Reply-To: <218D8594-B317-4DA1-A7CD-CBEAED902914@adelphia.net> References: <05FE8AA2C61943188EE919DF0CD56813@OPTIPLEX> <30D3F2F8-D946-4150-8C1A-46D019D70489@adelphia.net> <218D8594-B317-4DA1-A7CD-CBEAED902914@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <5CF5B934-BF4B-4B55-9DE0-7082B7100AF3@mind2mind.net> Dear Steve, You wrote, > Siegel is one of the moving forces in that field. The only reason > I know is because we adopted a child who, unbeknownst to us, > had severe Reactive Attachment Disorder. Ah, you have learned about attachment the hard way. Many blessings to you in being an ongoing and indispensable part of your child's discovery his or her true humanity. This is the process of saving all living beings. You are a bodhisattva. Bowing, Franz From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Tue Jan 20 21:40:41 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 20:40:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memoirs Message-ID: <5074.42896.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi, Herman ? What in the world is a djvu file?? I downloaded?Conze's memoirs (all the rage on Buddha-L?right now)?and when I tried to open them, the program that?kicked in?was Irfan View, which I use for images, with an error message.? Any advice? ? Also, why was Conze against democracy and feminism (according to Wikipedia)? ? Katherine Masis From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Tue Jan 20 21:46:39 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 20:46:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] djvu files Message-ID: <230627.40844.qm@web54601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi, Herman ? One quick look at the djvu files website and phew!? I think I'll pass on that one.? I'll wait till Conze's memoirs come out in pdf. ? Katherine From brburl at charter.net Tue Jan 20 21:48:40 2009 From: brburl at charter.net (Bruce Burrill) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:48:40 -0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memoirs In-Reply-To: <5074.42896.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <5074.42896.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090120224417.0609de80@charter.net> At 10:40 PM 1/20/2009, you wrote: >Also, why was Conze against democracy and feminism (according to Wikipedia)? He was a brilliant, but very odd man. For DjVu try the fourth file from the top: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=32953 From gouin.me at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 03:44:40 2009 From: gouin.me at gmail.com (Margaret Gouin) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:44:40 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memoirs In-Reply-To: <5074.42896.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <5074.42896.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: djvu is the file extension for Deja Vu, a particular form of compressed file. Go to DjVu.org for more information and all the tools you need. M 2009/1/21 Katherine Masis > Hi, Herman > > What in the world is a djvu file? I downloaded Conze's memoirs (all the > rage on Buddha-L right now) and when I tried to open them, the program > that kicked in was Irfan View, which I use for images, with an error > message. Any advice? > > Also, why was Conze against democracy and feminism (according to > Wikipedia)? > > Katherine Masis > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From sfeite at adelphia.net Wed Jan 21 06:06:09 2009 From: sfeite at adelphia.net (S.A. Feite) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:06:09 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memoirs In-Reply-To: <5074.42896.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <5074.42896.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <70B42121-9E30-47ED-B9DD-E297D2A29B9C@adelphia.net> On Jan 20, 2009, at 11:40 PM, Katherine Masis wrote: > What in the world is a djvu file? I downloaded Conze's memoirs > (all the rage on Buddha-L right now) and when I tried to open them, > the program that kicked in was Irfan View, which I use for images, > with an error message. Any advice? > > Also, why was Conze against democracy and feminism (according to > Wikipedia)? DjVu is a wavelet-based document format that can produce high- resolution images which are so small they can be streamed over even a dial-up connection. It's a shame Lizardtech never promoted the product in the way it should have. The technology was actually years ahead of it's time. It's still much smaller than my current version of Adobe Acrobat produced files. So for scanning books, it is excellent and file sizes are often 20 times or smaller than corresponding PDF's. It could make it possible to put libraries online. From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 21 07:19:55 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:19:55 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] djvu files In-Reply-To: <230627.40844.qm@web54601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <230627.40844.qm@web54601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3FFD42E5A02E4695A834761875B498E4@OPTIPLEX> Thnaks for the news about djvu files, Katherine--I hadn't tried downloading them yet so you saved me a mess. Joanna ================== Hi, Herman ? One quick look at the djvu files website and phew!? I think I'll pass on that one.? I'll wait till Conze's memoirs come out in pdf. ? Katherine _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 21 07:29:54 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:29:54 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memoirs In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090120224417.0609de80@charter.net> References: <5074.42896.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090120224417.0609de80@charter.net> Message-ID: How about this? at the time he was writing, did women in the "western world" have the vote yet? For half of his lifetime (1904-1979) women had just barely begun to get the vote, so if he wasn't a feminist, no surprise: Timeline of women getting the vote: 1869 - Wyoming Territory in the USA is the first place in the world to give votes to women. 1893 - New Zealand is the first country to give women the vote. 1906 - Finland is the first country in Europe to give women the vote. 1917 - Russia 1918 - Germany, Canada, Austria. 1920 - The USA, but not Native American women. 1925 - Italy 1928 - United Kingdom (full), Ireland 1930 - South Africa , but only to white women. 1931 - Spain 1932 - Brazil 1944 - France 1945 - Italy As for democracy--it still has a bad name because of the ways it has been perverted. Cheers, Joanna ======================================== At 10:40 PM 1/20/2009, K.M. wrote >Also, why was Conze against democracy and feminism (according to Wikipedia)? He was a brilliant, but very odd man. For DjVu try the fourth file from the top: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=32953 _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From anemone at ghvalley.net Wed Jan 21 07:40:16 2009 From: anemone at ghvalley.net (Perennial Favorites) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:40:16 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memoirs References: <5074.42896.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Also, why was Conze against democracy and feminism (according to Wikipedia)? Katherine Masis When I read that biography on Wikipedia, I thought that of course he was against democracy...he skipped right over it to communism. As for not being a feminist, he was male and born in 1904. Were there any men who were feminists in that generation? Diana Capen _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Jan 21 07:42:58 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:42:58 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memoirs In-Reply-To: <5074.42896.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <5074.42896.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49773472.5090007@cola.iges.org> Wikipedia articles concerning Buddhism tend to have negative information content. Conze's page appears to be a case in point. Curt Katherine Masis wrote: > Hi, Herman > > What in the world is a djvu file? I downloaded Conze's memoirs (all the rage on Buddha-L right now) and when I tried to open them, the program that kicked in was Irfan View, which I use for images, with an error message. Any advice? > > Also, why was Conze against democracy and feminism (according to Wikipedia)? > > Katherine Masis > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From anemone at ghvalley.net Wed Jan 21 07:49:17 2009 From: anemone at ghvalley.net (Perennial Favorites) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:49:17 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) References: <1408_1232144901_49710A05_1408_1_1_1232144748.5795.32.camel@localhost><1232162176.8652.29.camel@localhost> <1232221573.7179.41.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <6D2E4E135B284584A78796D82EAF006F@PerennialOne> The tendency of the unhealthy four is to dwell > on one's victimhood and suffering. Their favorite song is "Nobody knows > the trouble I've seen," and their least favorite is Dylan's "Dear > Landlord," especially the line that goes "I know you've suffered much, > but in this you are not so unique." Bob Dylan, by the way is supposed to > be a Four with a strong Five wing. Does that make you feel any better? > (Imagine how I felt when I discovered that a fairly representative Nine, > my type, was Ronald Reagan. I damn near committed sewerpipes.) > > -- > Richard Hayes Ha. Well, yes, it does make me feel better. Diana Capen When crows find a dying snake, They behave as if they were eagles. When I see myself as a victim, I am hurt by trifling failures. ---Shantideva (by way of Stephen Batchelor) From anemone at ghvalley.net Wed Jan 21 08:13:53 2009 From: anemone at ghvalley.net (Perennial Favorites) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:13:53 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memoirs References: <5074.42896.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6128A25390834867BFD973F33C688DD8@PerennialOne> Also, why was Conze against democracy and feminism (according to Wikipedia)? Katherine Masis When I read that biography on Wikipedia, I thought that of course he was against democracy...he skipped right over it to communism. As for not being a feminist, he was male and born in 1904. Were there any men who were feminists in that generation? Diana Capen _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 21 11:47:05 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:47:05 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] speaking about rebirth--again--new book Message-ID: <524CFE18595F477DA50073C21A479EF2@OPTIPLEX> Well, 2007--new to me anyway. Stephen R. Bokenkamp Ancestors and Anxiety : Daoism and the Birth of Rebirth in China UC Press, 2007. http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10645.php From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Jan 21 12:04:28 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:04:28 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] speaking about rebirth--again--new book References: <524CFE18595F477DA50073C21A479EF2@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <004501c97bfb$160872f0$2101a8c0@Dan> Joanna, > Stephen R. Bokenkamp > Ancestors and Anxiety : Daoism and the Birth of Rebirth in China > UC Press, 2007. > http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10645.php Steve Bokenkamp is one of the leading American scholars on Daoism. In this book he tries to show that the idea of rebirth was not simply a Buddhist import absorbed as such by Chinese culture, but it developed its own narrative and ritualistic characteristics, drawing equally on pre-Buddhist native Chinese traditions. It's a facinating, rich read, focusing on a few germinal texts. Dan From jkirk at spro.net Wed Jan 21 15:23:11 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:23:11 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] speaking about rebirth--again--new book In-Reply-To: <004501c97bfb$160872f0$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <524CFE18595F477DA50073C21A479EF2@OPTIPLEX> <004501c97bfb$160872f0$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <692AB1552DF546DE9B6026C768452201@OPTIPLEX> ........and I hope to read it--eventually--now that I can get it on ILL Joanna ============== Joanna, > Stephen R. Bokenkamp > Ancestors and Anxiety : Daoism and the Birth of Rebirth in China UC > Press, 2007. > http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10645.php Steve Bokenkamp is one of the leading American scholars on Daoism. In this book he tries to show that the idea of rebirth was not simply a Buddhist import absorbed as such by Chinese culture, but it developed its own narrative and ritualistic characteristics, drawing equally on pre-Buddhist native Chinese traditions. It's a facinating, rich read, focusing on a few germinal texts. Dan _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Wed Jan 21 17:47:01 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:47:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memoirs Message-ID: <317322.65891.qm@web54604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Perennial Favorites (Diana Capen) wrote: ? As for not being a feminist, he was male and born in 1904.? Were there any men who were feminists in that generation? ? ============================== Actually, both my grandfathers (born in the 1890's) wholeheartedly supported woman's suffrage, in the U.S. (on my mom's side) and in Costa Rica (on my dad's side) ! ? Cheers, Katherine From anemone at ghvalley.net Wed Jan 21 18:42:49 2009 From: anemone at ghvalley.net (Perennial Favorites) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:42:49 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memoirs References: <317322.65891.qm@web54604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <26ECC7A6275B4C419F7F5DA3A5E5028F@PerennialOne> >>>> Actually, both my grandfathers (born in the 1890's) wholeheartedly supported woman's suffrage, in the U.S. (on my mom's side) and in Costa Rica (on my dad's side) ! Cheers, Katherine I knew as soon as I sent that email that it was wrong--and sexist! Nice to know about your grandpas. Diana _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From cfynn at gmx.net Wed Jan 21 20:44:39 2009 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:44:39 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] djvu files In-Reply-To: <230627.40844.qm@web54601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <230627.40844.qm@web54601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4977EBA7.2010105@gmx.net> Katherine Masis wrote: > Hi, Herman > > One quick look at the djvu files website and phew! I think I'll pass on that one. > I'll wait till Conze's memoirs come out in pdf. It is really no more difficult than downloading and installing the plug-ins necessary to be able to view PDF or Flash files in your browser. - chris > Katherine From cfynn at gmx.net Wed Jan 21 20:45:38 2009 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:45:38 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memoirs In-Reply-To: <70B42121-9E30-47ED-B9DD-E297D2A29B9C@adelphia.net> References: <5074.42896.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <70B42121-9E30-47ED-B9DD-E297D2A29B9C@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <4977EBE2.4010004@gmx.net> S.A. Feite wrote: > On Jan 20, 2009, at 11:40 PM, Katherine Masis wrote: > >> What in the world is a djvu file? I downloaded Conze's memoirs >> (all the rage on Buddha-L right now) and when I tried to open them, >> the program that kicked in was Irfan View, which I use for images, >> with an error message. Any advice? >> >> Also, why was Conze against democracy and feminism (according to >> Wikipedia)? > > > DjVu is a wavelet-based document format that can produce high- > resolution images which are so small they can be streamed over even a > dial-up connection. It's a shame Lizardtech never promoted the > product in the way it should have. The technology was actually years > ahead of it's time. It's still much smaller than my current version > of Adobe Acrobat produced files. So for scanning books, it is > excellent and file sizes are often 20 times or smaller than > corresponding PDF's. It could make it possible to put libraries online. Another years ahead of it's time technology by AT&T Labs. Didn't they invent Unix? DjVu is particularly suited to compressing images of manuscripts and books. DjVu compression apparently masks the text keeping it at high resolution while applying greater compression to the background (paper). Over ten years ago the British Library was experimenting using DjVu to display images of manuscripts on their website. I looked into it at the time and recall that while there was a free time-limited "trial version" of the application for creating DjVu files available, the full version cost quite a lot of money. Acrobat was *much* cheaper and more convenient to use. Now there is a GPL version available, perhaps DjVu will catch on - it would be very useful for on-line libraries showing images of palm leaf manuscripts. - Chris From cfynn at gmx.net Wed Jan 21 20:50:39 2009 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:50:39 +0600 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memoirs In-Reply-To: References: <5074.42896.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090120224417.0609de80@charter.net> Message-ID: <4977ED0F.9040000@gmx.net> Joanna, You forgot: 1971 - Switzerland - Chris jkirk wrote: > How about this? at the time he was writing, did women in the > "western world" have the vote yet? For half of his lifetime > (1904-1979) women had just barely begun to get the vote, so if he > wasn't a feminist, no surprise: > > Timeline of women getting the vote: > 1869 - Wyoming Territory in the USA is the first place in the > world to give votes to women. > 1893 - New Zealand is the first country to give women the vote. > 1906 - Finland is the first country in Europe to give women the > vote. > 1917 - Russia > 1918 - Germany, Canada, Austria. > 1920 - The USA, but not Native American women. > 1925 - Italy > 1928 - United Kingdom (full), Ireland > 1930 - South Africa , but only to white women. > 1931 - Spain > 1932 - Brazil > 1944 - France > 1945 - Italy > > As for democracy--it still has a bad name because of the ways it > has been perverted. > > Cheers, Joanna > ======================================== From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Thu Jan 22 07:54:35 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 06:54:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memoirs Message-ID: <25882.89657.qm@web54603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks, Diana, Joanne, Chris (Switzerland 1971 !!!???? :-o ).? Getting back to Conze, of course I can appreciate that he was born in a time when very few men thought well of women's rights.? What struck me was that Wikipedia actually stated he was against feminism rather than taking it for granted, as most biographies of the Wiki category "1904 births" would show.? I'm wondering if Conze?said, wrote or did?something outrageously misogynistic for the Wiki author to have made that statement.? Just curious .... ? Katherine From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 22 13:04:58 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:04:58 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: H-ASIA: Buddhist Traditions of Tibet & Himalayas NEH Summer Program Message-ID: Surely some among our distinguished list members on the US east coast might like to participate in this interesting offering. The list of participating scholars sure looks good. [sigh***--I'm not on the east coast.] If you go, please post your impressions, and paper if there was one. Joanna =================================== H-ASIA January 22, 2009 NEH Summer Program, Buddhist Traditions of Tibet and the Himalayas, June 22-July 10, 2009 ***************************************************************** ****** From: H-Net Announcements NEH Program for the Summer of 2009 Buddhist Traditions of Tibet and the Himalayas Co-directed by Todd T. Lewis and Leonard van der Kuijp Location: Massachusetts, United States Summer Program Date: 2009-06-22 Date Submitted: 2009-01-14 Announcement ID: 166296 Buddhist Traditions of Tibet and the Himalayas Co-directed by or Todd T. Lewis and Leonard van der Kuijp June 22-July 10, 2009 25 Institute participants will receive a stipend of $2600, to cover expenses. Applications due by March 2, 2009. The Institute will be concerned with the study of Buddhism in Tibet and the Himalayas and it will follow the contemporary trend in Buddhist studies to go beyond the sole use of texts and philological-philosophical analysis to study and teach Buddhism. Balancing the use of elite sources with anthropological studies, our goal is to convey how Buddhism has been a lived religion that affected Himalayan societies. Accordingly, we will devote special attention to themes relevant to this goal: monastic life in the Himalayan communities; the use of art in the regional transmission of Buddhist culture; healing traditions through which Buddhism influenced whole societies; consideration of forms of Mahayana meditation (visualization meditation; Dzog-chen; fasting) not usually taught in American Buddhist Centers. We will also sponsor lecture-demonstrations by distinguished ritual specialists from the region, and for Nepal present an experience of Buddhist life cycle rites, festivals, and feasting. Visiting Scholars will include Naresh Man Bajracarya, Dina Bangdel, Martin Brauen Sienna Craig, Georges Dreyfus, David Germano, David Gray, David Holmberg, Kathryn March, Sarah Levine, Charles Ramble, Anne de Sales, Kurtis Schaeffer Jonathan Silk, Gray Tuttle, Michael Witzel Todd Lewis Religious Studies Department College of the Holy Cross Worcester, MA 01610-2395 508/793-3436 Email: tlewis at holycross.edu Visit the website at http://college.holycross.edu/projects/buddhists_traditions/ From jkirk at spro.net Thu Jan 22 13:10:45 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:10:45 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memoirs In-Reply-To: <4977ED0F.9040000@gmx.net> References: <5074.42896.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090120224417.0609de80@charter.net> <4977ED0F.9040000@gmx.net> Message-ID: <9B3EEB9D9857485F991D4B1E0E4DC913@OPTIPLEX> yup--I took qquickie list off of some website -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Fynn Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:51 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Conze's Memoirs Joanna, You forgot: 1971 - Switzerland - Chris jkirk wrote: > How about this? at the time he was writing, did women in the "western > world" have the vote yet? For half of his lifetime > (1904-1979) women had just barely begun to get the vote, so if he > wasn't a feminist, no surprise: > > Timeline of women getting the vote: > 1869 - Wyoming Territory in the USA is the first place in the world to > give votes to women. > 1893 - New Zealand is the first country to give women the vote. > 1906 - Finland is the first country in Europe to give women the vote. > 1917 - Russia > 1918 - Germany, Canada, Austria. > 1920 - The USA, but not Native American women. > 1925 - Italy > 1928 - United Kingdom (full), Ireland 1930 - South Africa , but only > to white women. > 1931 - Spain > 1932 - Brazil > 1944 - France > 1945 - Italy > > As for democracy--it still has a bad name because of the ways it has > been perverted. > > Cheers, Joanna > ======================================== _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From at8u at virginia.edu Thu Jan 22 15:37:40 2009 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:37:40 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Dalai Lama to fund 'neuroscience of compassion' Message-ID: <4978F534.2050605@virginia.edu> Dear List, The Dalai Lama is again in the news in connection with neuroscience. http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2009/01/dalai-lama-to-fund-neuroscienc.html Best, Alberto Todeschini (PS, I receive Buddha-L in digests so I don't know if someone has already posted this and I haven't received the message yet) From bankei at gmail.com Fri Jan 23 02:41:51 2009 From: bankei at gmail.com (Bankei) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:41:51 +1100 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pali and Asoka In-Reply-To: <695096.70723.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <695096.70723.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jayarava Interesting post. Sorry I don't have much to add, but.... Have you looked at the work of Prof K. R. Norman a specialist in early Indian languages. The PTS has a few volumes with his articles. Have you also looked into the early inscriptions of Sri Lanka. I beleive there are many dating from the 2nd or 1st century BC onwards. Regards Bankei 2009/1/18 Jayarava > I have been browsing through Cardona and Jains 'Indo-aryan Languages' and > Salomon's 'Indian Epigraphy'... > > It seems that the P?li language of the Tipitaka most resembles the prakrit > of the Asokan inscription at Girn?r (in modern day Gujurat), although it > makes sporadic use of Magadhisms. That is to say that P?li as we know it is > essentially a western Indian dialect. This raises the issue of why the > western dialect was used for the scriptures when everyone involved in them, > from the Buddha down to Asoka, having lived in Magadha most likely spoke an > eastern dialect. (Doesn't it?) > > In Asoka's heartland the inscriptions are all in Magadhi (ie the prakrit of > the Magadha region). However with the death of Asoka and the collapse of the > Mauryan dynasty, inscriptions in this language cease - apparently they cease > abruptly and completely. Eventually inscriptions are found in the western > dialect as far afield as Orissa and Amar?vati suggesting that the western > dialect spread from it's original homeland and became a lingua franca "by > the last two centuries BCE". Presumably this had something to do with > filling the power vacuum left by the Mauryans? > > If the texts were transmitted to Sri Lanka during Asoka's lifetime why > weren't they in the language that he most likely spoke? Gujurat was a bit of > a back water at this time if the history books are anything to go by. Asoka > inscribed his words in Magadha and at the frontiers of his kingdom, but not > much in between - Gujurat was at the edge of his realm. > > Seems to me there are three possibilities: > > 1. The texts were originally remembered in Magadhi (or at least an eastern > dialect of some description), but some Buddhists (perhaps after a schism or > due to missionary activity) went to Girn?r and translated the texts into the > local dialect. The texts were then transmitted from Girn?r to Sri Lanka > during Asoka's time. > > 2. The texts were transmitted to Sri Lanka in Magadhi during the life of > Asoka, but later translated into the western dialect in Sri Lanka. > > 3. The texts were translated from Magadhi into the western dialect when it > became the lingua franca of Northern India. The history of this is far from > clear to me, but definitely some time after Asoka died. Perhaps a generation > or two - how long does it take for a language to change? The texts were > subsequently transmitted to Sri Lanka in P?li. > > I know of no evidence to support option 1. and I gather Frauwallner thought > Mathura was the likely launching point. > > Option 2 seems pretty unlikely - Sri Lanka is a long way from Magadha, with > South Indian languages intervening. The Sinhalese script diverged from > Brahmi by the 3rd century BCE suggesting that they were not part of the > mainstream even then. I can't think of why they would suddenly change the > language of the texts to another foreign language. They seem unlikely to > want to change the language at all, but if they did it would seem that > Sinhalese was a more likely candidate for them to choose. And again I know > of no evidence to suggest that such a translation took place in Sri Lanka. > > Which leaves option 3. even though it conflicts with the traditional > narratives of the history. The texts were transmitted some time after the > death of Asoka - I'm guessing at least two generations - sometime in the > early to mid 2nd century BCE. > > Is this news to anyone but me? > > There was apparently a major revision of the Sri Lankan Canon in the 12th > century based on Burmese grammars - heavily influenced by Sanskrit > grammarians. Could this account for a option 2. scenario? > > Is there a 4th option to explain the information? > > Best wishes > Jayarava > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From dharmafarer at gmail.com Sat Jan 24 10:37:37 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 01:37:37 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aupaduka Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20090125013057.03ac17f8@pop.singnet.com.sg> Dear Dan (or anyone interested), I need to consult you on a technical term. Max Deeg, in his paper presented to the "Closer to Reality Conference," held in Kuala Lumpur in Dec 2008, translates aupapaaduka as "being just before rebirth" (Tib brdzus te ske-k'ai sems-can) in connection with the Wheel of Life, saying that Viniitadeva takes it to mean bar-ma-do'i srid-pa'i sem-can (being between two existences). In other words, aupapaaduka refers to the intermediate being. (1) Could you please let me know if the Tibetan quote is correct (if possible give me their spellings in the Tibetan script, too). (2) What do you think of Pali "opapaatika" and "aupapaaduka" being synonyms. As such, the Pali term opapaatika would both mean "spontaneously born" (for non-returners" as well as "intermediate being". Would deeply appreciate your feedback. Thanks and best wishes, Piya Tan The Minding Centre (under the Dharma auspices of Poh Ming Tse) Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central, #01-68 (2nd flr), (near Bukit Batok MRT/Interchange) Singapore 650644. HP: 8211 0879 Dharmafarer (Sutta) website: http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com From Bradley.clough at mso.umt.edu Sat Jan 24 12:45:23 2009 From: Bradley.clough at mso.umt.edu (Bradley Clough) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 12:45:23 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aupaduka In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20090125013057.03ac17f8@pop.singnet.com.sg> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20090125013057.03ac17f8@pop.singnet.com.sg> Message-ID: > > > > (2) What do you think of Pali "opapaatika" and "aupapaaduka" being > synonyms. As such, the Pali term opapaatika would both mean > "spontaneously > born" (for non-returners" as well as "intermediate being". > > Would deeply appreciate your feedback. > > Thanks and best wishes, > > Piya Tan > > > > The Minding Centre (under the Dharma auspices of Poh Ming Tse) > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central, #01-68 (2nd flr), > (near Bukit Batok MRT/Interchange) Singapore 650644. > HP: 8211 0879 > > Dharmafarer (Sutta) website: http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From Bradley.clough at mso.umt.edu Sat Jan 24 13:17:22 2009 From: Bradley.clough at mso.umt.edu (Bradley Clough) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 13:17:22 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aupaduka In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20090125013057.03ac17f8@pop.singnet.com.sg> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20090125013057.03ac17f8@pop.singnet.com.sg> Message-ID: <8F4BE045-95C4-424E-A93F-46D279534E14@mso.umt.edu> On Jan 24, 2009, at 10:37 AM, Piya Tan wrote: > Dear Dan (or anyone interested), > > I need to consult you on a technical term. > > Max Deeg, in his paper presented to the "Closer to Reality > Conference," > held in Kuala Lumpur in Dec 2008, translates aupapaaduka as "being > just > before rebirth" (Tib brdzus te ske-k'ai sems-can) in connection with > the > Wheel of Life, saying that Viniitadeva takes it to mean bar-ma-do'i > srid-pa'i sem-can (being between two existences). In other words, > aupapaaduka refers to the intermediate being. > > (1) Could you please let me know if the Tibetan quote is correct (if > possible give me their spellings in the Tibetan script, too). > > (2) What do you think of Pali "opapaatika" and "aupapaaduka" being > synonyms. As such, the Pali term opapaatika would both mean > "spontaneously > born" (for non-returners" as well as "intermediate being". Sorry for just sending out a blank message: I hit the send button too soon! Yes, the Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary defines opapaatika as "spontaneously born" or "born without a cause" (meaning "born without parents"). But I don't see any connection with the intermediate state or the intermediate state being, since the Pali tradition does not subscribe to a belief in the intermediate state. It does seem to posit a space of time between death & rebirth, but it doesn't call it the "intermediate state" and certainly no such thing as the "intermediate state being" is accepted (in contrast to SOME other early traditions). Rather, they refer to the "rebirth-linking consciousness" (pati.sandhi-vin~n~aan.a) as the entity which passes from one life to the next. (This idea is not found in the Pali Nikaayas or Vinaya; it is first found in the Milinda-pan~a, and then later is more fully defined in the Visuddhimagga and other later commentarial material, as well as the 12th century 'Summary of Abhidhamma' [Abhidhmmattha-sam.gaha]). As for Sanskrit equivalents, the dictionary sees the "Buddhist-Hybrid" Sanskrit aupapaaduka as a "curious distortion" of the Pali opapaatika. Bradley Clough The University of Montana bradley.clough at mso.umt.edu From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sat Jan 24 23:20:21 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 01:20:21 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aupaduka References: <5.1.1.6.2.20090125013057.03ac17f8@pop.singnet.com.sg> <8F4BE045-95C4-424E-A93F-46D279534E14@mso.umt.edu> Message-ID: <002301c97eb5$00794e20$2101a8c0@Dan> Piya, Perhaps one of our Tibetan specialists can give you more precise or accurate information. Which of Vinitadeva's texts does Deeg claim this passage is found? As for the terms themselves: brdzus te ske ka'i sems can (notice, it is ka'i, not k'ai) breaks down something like this: brdzus = transformed into, miraculous te = continuative particle ske ka'i = neck and head, origin, root sems can = sattva So this could be taken as equivalent to "spontaneous born" of the four types of birth (i.e., aupapaaduka = upapaaduka). bar ma do'i srid pa'i = antarabhaava Identifying the spontaneously-born with the antarabhaava is an interesting exegetical idea (since later Buddhists have been hard-pressed to find any known actual sentient beings that fit that description -- most candidates are curious, nonempirical "beings"). If Vinitadeva does that, he is probably drawing somehow on the Abhidharmakosa. In the Abhidharmako"sa, see 2.14 and bhasya for discussion of upapaaduka beings. And see 3.8c-d-bhasya for a precise definition (and the claim that it is the best of the four types of birth, followed by an apologia for why bodhisattvas when born in the life they are to become Buddhas are nonetheless womb-born; it is also the worst of the births since it can happen in the lower gatis as well). This is followed (3.10 and followng) by a discussion of the antarabhava. They seem to be different (3.9bc lists them separately), though Vasubandhu points out some similarities. Dan From selwyn at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 25 02:06:00 2009 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 09:06:00 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aupapaduka In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20090125013057.03ac17f8@pop.singnet.com.sg> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20090125013057.03ac17f8@pop.singnet.com.sg> Message-ID: <497C2B78.2080909@ntlworld.com> One or two quick comments on the history of these words. Piya Tan wrote: > (2) What do you think of Pali "opapaatika" and "aupapaaduka" being > synonyms. As such, the Pali term opapaatika would both mean "spontaneously > born" (for non-returners" as well as "intermediate being". > In the form of written Middle Indian current especially from the second century B.C. to the first century A.D. words derived from Sanskrit upapaata and from Sanskrit upapaada were often identical in form. But there was no standardized spelling. From the second century A.D. or so onwards) there was a general move towards a more standardized and literary form of written language. This eventually produced the languages we know as Buddhist Sanskrit and Pali (and probably others). In the case in question it meant that those who were tidying up the texts needed to make a choice between a derivation from upapaata and one from upapaada. The ancestors of the Pali tradition chose the former (perhaps seeing a connexion also to upapatti), while the ancestors of the Sanskrit texts known to us chose the latter. Originally, there was not much difference in meaning. Both effectively mean 'taking rebirth' and one has to understand this as meaning 'taking rebirth directly' i.e. not going to an egg or a womb or some kind of generative fluid. 'Direct rebirth' seems to be the default mode for everything except human beings and animals. Lance Cousins From selwyn at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 25 02:51:21 2009 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 09:51:21 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pali and Asoka In-Reply-To: <695096.70723.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <695096.70723.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <497C3619.8010203@ntlworld.com> Jayarava, Your post raised a lot of issues and I didn't have time to respond earlier. Here are one or two comments as regards Asoka and dialects. 1. In Pakistan and Afghanistan Asoka's inscriptions are found in various languages and scripts, both of local origin and imported from elsewhere. This is probably because these areas had been under the rule or cultural influence of the Persian Empire. They are a different case from India proper. 2. In the area we now call India, only one form of written language is generally known. It is clearly under the influence of the spoken language of Eastern India, presumably the area around Patna. Spelling is not standardized and there is some variation in the degree of 'Easternization'. This is used even in southern areas where Dravidian of some kind might have been the local spoken language. The one major exception to this is at Girnar. (There are some minor fragments which are similar to Girnar.) 3. So we have to account for the anomaly at Girnar. I know three possible explanations: a) It represents the influence of a local 'western' dialect. But then it is difficult to account for its spread over the following centuries to become something like the norm. b) The local scribe was more learned and has Sanskritized the text a little. The spread of this kind of spelling in the subsequent centuries is then due to an early phase of Sanskritization. The Pali language will then be partly a descendant of that and partly a result of an independant process of Sanskritization. K.R. Norman in particular has argued that we should see what we have at Girnar as the result of Sanskritization. c) The Girnar inscription might have been inscribed at a later date than the other versions e.g. late in the reign of Asoka or even after. This would be some kind of prestige act. As far as I know, the detailed palaeographic studies that would test that have never been done. As it stands, b) seems the best option. 4. The proper name of the Pali language is the Maagadha language. That's the name that has been used for the last 1,500 years and probably quite a lot longer. This is a straightforward descendant of the written language of India mentioned above. The language spoken in Maagadha proper is called Maagadhii by Indian grammarians in the first millennium A.D. Originally, this would have been a spoken dialect, but there probably were texts written in this by the time of the Prakrit grammarians. Lance Cousins From dharmafarer at gmail.com Sun Jan 25 04:08:29 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 19:08:29 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aupaduka In-Reply-To: <002301c97eb5$00794e20$2101a8c0@Dan> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20090125013057.03ac17f8@pop.singnet.com.sg> <8F4BE045-95C4-424E-A93F-46D279534E14@mso.umt.edu> <002301c97eb5$00794e20$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: Thanks Dan for your kind response. The Abhidharmakosa citations are helpful. Abhdhk 9-bc which says "Beings in hell, intermediate beings, and the gods are apparitional [upapaaduka], too" is helpful to my investigation. Here we have an overlap (part-synonym) between antaraabhava and upapaaduka. It's a good start for further development. Now to see if we can fairly apply this to the Pali cognate, opapaatika. [Continue...] On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Piya, > > Perhaps one of our Tibetan specialists can give you more precise or accurate > information. Which of Vinitadeva's texts does Deeg claim this passage is > found? > Max Deeg (School of Religious and Theological Studies, Cardiff Univ, UK) quotes Monika Zin & Dieter Schlingoff, Sa?s?racakra. Das Rad der Wiedergeburten in der indischen ?berlief?er?ung, Dusseldorf, 2007: 24, 115 Best wishes, Piya > As for the terms themselves: > > brdzus te ske ka'i sems can (notice, it is ka'i, not k'ai) breaks down > something like this: > > brdzus = transformed into, miraculous > te = continuative particle > ske ka'i = neck and head, origin, root > sems can = sattva > > So this could be taken as equivalent to "spontaneous born" of the four types > of birth (i.e., aupapaaduka = upapaaduka). > > bar ma do'i srid pa'i = antarabhaava > > Identifying the spontaneously-born with the antarabhaava is an interesting > exegetical idea (since later Buddhists have been hard-pressed to find any > known actual sentient beings that fit that description -- most candidates > are curious, nonempirical "beings"). If Vinitadeva does that, he is probably > drawing somehow on the Abhidharmakosa. > > In the Abhidharmako"sa, see 2.14 and bhasya for discussion of upapaaduka > beings. And see 3.8c-d-bhasya for a precise definition (and the claim that > it is the best of the four types of birth, followed by an apologia for why > bodhisattvas when born in the life they are to become Buddhas are > nonetheless womb-born; it is also the worst of the births since it can > happen in the lower gatis as well). This is followed (3.10 and followng) by > a discussion of the antarabhava. They seem to be different (3.9bc lists them > separately), though Vasubandhu points out some similarities. > > Dan > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From jayarava at yahoo.com Sun Jan 25 04:42:51 2009 From: jayarava at yahoo.com (Jayarava) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 03:42:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Pali and Asoka In-Reply-To: <497C3619.8010203@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <815884.16060.qm@web51410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Lance, Thanks! I have since read relevant parts of the Mah?vamsa which say that Asoka lived in Avanti for a time before becoming king, and Mahinda was born there to a local mother. Avanti is not quite as far afield as Girnar, but is westerly, and although it's purely supposition Mahinda might have had a western dialect as mother tongue. Mightn't he? Also the last Mauryan king is said to have been assassinated by a general who went on to found the Shunga Dynasty - the Shungas seem to have been Brahmins and to have also come from Avanti. The Shungas could well have carried a Sanskritised prakrit, or indeed a western Prakrit, with them as a court language (and therefore the language of inscriptions). The range was not as great as Asoka of course, and India fragmented until the Guptas... > In the area we now call India, only one form of written language is > generally known. Is Norman's discussion of this etc in his collected works? > The proper name of the Pali language is the Maagadha language... This is > a straightforward descendant of the written language of India mentioned > above. Not according to Cardona and Jain who say that Pali is more like Girnar than Patna dialect: they quote a number of morphological features to make it seem plausible. I assume this is a moot point? Would you explain both Girnar and contemporary Pali solely in terms of Sanskritisation of Maaghadhii and vagaries of the written language? I'm writing an essay on this for my blog - based mainly on Cardona and Jain - and would like to quote your opinion. Is it OK if I use what you've written here? I will look up Norman as well - love reading his stuff anyway even if it is a bit over my head most of the time :-) Thanks Jayarava From dharmafarer at gmail.com Sun Jan 25 06:41:17 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 21:41:17 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aupapaduka In-Reply-To: <497C2B78.2080909@ntlworld.com> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20090125013057.03ac17f8@pop.singnet.com.sg> <497C2B78.2080909@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Thanks Lance, for the helpful feedback. "Direct birth" for opapaatika is a useful rendition and very easy to imagine. I am investigating whether it is possible that the Pali opapaatika could, besides referring to the spontaneously born non-returner, and the spontaneously-born yoni (M 1:73L Vbh 416), could also include the sense of antaraabhava, esp in the "wrong view" pericope: n'atthi dinna.m, n'atthi yi.t.tha.m, n'atthi huta.m, There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. n'atthi sukata,dukka.taana.m kammaanam. phalam. vipaako, There is no fruit or result of good or evil actions. n'atthi ayam. loko, n'atthi paro loko, There is no this world, no next world [hereafter]. n'atthi maataa, n'atthi pitaa, There is no mother, no father. n'atthi sattaa opapaatikaa, There are no sattaa opapaatikaa. n'atthi loke sama.na,braahma.naa sammaggataa sammaa,pa.tipannaa There are no recluses and brahmins who, living rightlyand practising rightly, having known and realized for themselves his world and the hereafter, proclaim them. (D 2.22/1:55) = SD 8.10; etc The Abhidharma,ko?a says, "Beings in hell, intermediate beings, and the gods are apparitional [upap?duka], too." (Abhdhk 3.9-bc). In other words, the antar?,bhava, like the hell-beings and the gods, are opap?tika. As already pointed out, the Sanskrit cog?nate of opap?tika, according to the Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Dictionary, is upap?duka or aupap?duka. If we accept this, then it is possible to take opapaatika to mean or at least include the meaning of antaraabhava. Which makes more sense of "There are no sattaa opapaatikaa" in the above passage. We can then conclude of "there ARE sattaa opapaatikaa" (the right view version) as follows: (1) There is rebirth. (2) There is the intermediate state. I have a written a paper on on the notion of antaraabhava in Pali Canon, and my ideas also coincide with Ajahn Sujato's whose paper can be found here: http://www.c2rc.org/papers/C2RC2008-P2S1-EarlyBuddhismPersp-Sujato.pdf Thanks again for your valuable presence. With metta & mudita, Piya On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 5:06 PM, L.S. Cousins wrote: > One or two quick comments on the history of these words. > > > Piya Tan wrote: >> (2) What do you think of Pali "opapaatika" and "aupapaaduka" being >> synonyms. As such, the Pali term opapaatika would both mean "spontaneously >> born" (for non-returners" as well as "intermediate being". >> > > In the form of written Middle Indian current especially from the second > century B.C. to the first century A.D. words derived from Sanskrit > upapaata and from Sanskrit upapaada were often identical in form. But > there was no standardized spelling. From the second century A.D. or so > onwards) there was a general move towards a more standardized and > literary form of written language. This eventually produced the > languages we know as Buddhist Sanskrit and Pali (and probably others). > > > In the case in question it meant that those who were tidying up the > texts needed to make a choice between a derivation from upapaata and one > from upapaada. The ancestors of the Pali tradition chose the former > (perhaps seeing a connexion also to upapatti), while the ancestors of > the Sanskrit texts known to us chose the latter. > > > Originally, there was not much difference in meaning. Both effectively > mean 'taking rebirth' and one has to understand this as meaning 'taking > rebirth directly' i.e. not going to an egg or a womb or some kind of > generative fluid. 'Direct rebirth' seems to be the default mode for > everything except human beings and animals. > > > Lance Cousins > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From selwyn at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 25 06:56:36 2009 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 13:56:36 +0000 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pali and Asoka In-Reply-To: <815884.16060.qm@web51410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <815884.16060.qm@web51410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <497C6F94.1040204@ntlworld.com> Jayarava wrote: > Hi Lance, > > Thanks! I have since read relevant parts of the Mah?vamsa which say that Asoka lived in Avanti for a time before becoming king, and Mahinda was born there to a local mother. Avanti is not quite as far afield as Girnar, but is westerly, and although it's purely supposition Mahinda might have had a western dialect as mother tongue. Mightn't he? > He might have done, but that does not mean that he would have recited oral Buddhist texts in that dialect. That depends on where he was trained. Also, Mahinda belonged to a governing aristocracy who may not have spoken the local dialect at all. > Also the last Mauryan king is said to have been assassinated by a general who went on to found the Shunga Dynasty - the Shungas seem to have been Brahmins and to have also come from Avanti. The Shungas could well have carried a Sanskritised prakrit, or indeed a western Prakrit, with them as a court language (and therefore the language of inscriptions). The range was not as great as Asoka of course, and India fragmented until the Guptas... > This is fairly speculative and doesn't fit the inscriptional evidence which shows the change to a new form in territories outside any likely Sunga authority. (In fact, the Sungas are rather poorly attested in inscriptions and archaeology.) > In the area we now call India, only one form of written language is > generally known. > > > Is Norman's discussion of this etc in his collected works? > That is something I said, not Norman. I am not sure if he would agree with it or not. I have taught the Asokan Inscriptions as a course here in Oxford a couple of times of late. So I have in part formed my own opinions. Norman discusses the question of the relationship between Pali and Girnar several times (if I remember correctly) in his Collected Works. > The proper name of the Pali language is the Maagadha language... This is > a straightforward descendant of the written language of India mentioned > above. > > > Not according to Cardona and Jain who say that Pali is more like Girnar than Patna dialect: they quote a number of morphological features to make it seem plausible. I assume this is a moot point? The Girnar inscription certainly resembles in some respects both the inscriptions from India in the second and first centuries A.D. and the manner in which we can reasonably suppose (but do not know) that Pali would have been written down around the first century B.C. or a little later. I do not have Cardona and Jain; so you will have to tell me what morphological features they refer to. > Would you explain both Girnar and contemporary Pali solely in terms of Sanskritisation of Maaghadhii and vagaries of the written language? > The telling point for me is that in the same inscription the same scribe is found using spellings which are said to be 'western' and 'eastern'. This suggests to me that we are dealing with a written language with spelling that is not standardized. I would suppose that Pali was originally written down in just this way, but has been subjected to a certain amount of subsequent Sanskritization at various dates. > I'm writing an essay on this for my blog - based mainly on Cardona and Jain - and would like to quote your opinion. Is it OK if I use what you've written here? Fine. Lance Cousins From richard.nance at gmail.com Sun Jan 25 10:01:13 2009 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 12:01:13 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aupaduka In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.2.20090125013057.03ac17f8@pop.singnet.com.sg> <8F4BE045-95C4-424E-A93F-46D279534E14@mso.umt.edu> <002301c97eb5$00794e20$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: Piya -- just a quick note: I haven't looked at the text cited by Deeg, but the relevant Tibetan phrase here may instead be "brdzus te skye ba'i sems can" (cf. Mahaavyutpatti 2282, where brdzus te skye ba = upapAdukAH). Best wishes, R. Nance Indiana From dharmafarer at gmail.com Mon Jan 26 18:09:31 2009 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 09:09:31 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aupaduka In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.2.20090125013057.03ac17f8@pop.singnet.com.sg> <8F4BE045-95C4-424E-A93F-46D279534E14@mso.umt.edu> <002301c97eb5$00794e20$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: Thanks Richard, for your note. Stephen Hodge has pointed out ot me that the reading should actually be "rdzus-te skye-ba'i sems-can". Deeg's quote as below has "brdzus." Are these variant readings? It is also interesting that the Mahaavutpatti does not list aupapaaduka. Best wishes, Piya Tan On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 1:01 AM, Richard Nance wrote: > Piya -- just a quick note: I haven't looked at the text cited by Deeg, > but the relevant Tibetan phrase here may instead be "brdzus te skye > ba'i sems can" (cf. Mahaavyutpatti 2282, where brdzus te skye ba = > upapAdukAH). > > Best wishes, > > R. Nance > Indiana > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Jan 27 09:42:38 2009 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 11:42:38 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aupaduka References: <5.1.1.6.2.20090125013057.03ac17f8@pop.singnet.com.sg><8F4BE045-95C4-424E-A93F-46D279534E14@mso.umt.edu><002301c97eb5$00794e20$2101a8c0@Dan> Message-ID: <001401c9809e$445c7d70$2101a8c0@Dan> Piya, Stephen Hodge must have checked the Index to the Yogacarabhumi, which lists Ch, Skt & Tib equivalents. Here are some of the relevant ones: ?? aupap?duka? sa?bhavati RDZUS TE 'BYUNG BAR 'GYUR BA ?? aupap?duk? yoni? RDZUS TE SKYE BA'I GNAS ?? upap?duka RDZUS TE SKYES PA ???? sattva upap?duka? SEMS CAN SKYE BA ???? sattva upap?duka? SEMS CAN SKYE BA ???? SEMS CAN RDZUS TE SKYE BA rdzus means a guise, to disguise. brdzus means "to transform, miraculous." The Chinese hua ? has a similar range of meanings to brdzus. So brdzus seems the better version. Someone better versed in Tib may be able to explain why the YBh version loses the initial "b". Mahaayutpatti, as Richard Nance noted, gives this: brdzus te skye ba = upapAdukAH / aupapAdukAH = (Mvyut.2282) Dan ----- Original Message ----- > for your note. Stephen Hodge has pointed out ot me that the reading > should actually be "rdzus-te skye-ba'i sems-can". > > Deeg's quote as below has "brdzus." Are these variant readings? > > It is also interesting that the Mahaavutpatti does not list aupapaaduka. > > Best wishes, > > Piya Tan From curt at cola.iges.org Tue Jan 27 10:16:24 2009 From: curt at cola.iges.org (Curt Steinmetz) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:16:24 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist words for "Buddhist" Message-ID: <497F4168.9070708@cola.iges.org> In Sanskrit, Pali, Tibetan, Chinese, and/or any other language from a culture with a well-established "mainstream" Buddhist tradition, is there a consistent terminology of religious identification that Buddhists use to refer to themselves (and to distinguish themselves from the followers of other religions)? The traditional word for what we denote in English as "Buddhism" is, of course, "Buddhadharma". What I am asking is whether or not anyone knows of one or more equivalent noun(s) for an adherent of the Buddhadharma - preferably ones that map as neatly to "Buddhist" as "Buddhadharma" does to "Buddhism"? Am I overlooking something obvious here? It wouldn't be the first time..... Curt From tatelman at rogers.com Tue Jan 27 10:40:58 2009 From: tatelman at rogers.com (Joel Tatelman) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:40:58 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist words for "Buddhist" In-Reply-To: <497F4168.9070708@cola.iges.org> References: <497F4168.9070708@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <34A5334C-54C8-4B0B-AB36-04C06B2C1B6C@rogers.com> Doesn't "Bauddha" appear in some of the Sanskrit dramas? Plus I'm pretty sure the term occurs in Nepalese literature. Having said that, I don't know if the term is used for self- rather than other- identification. Cheers, Joel. On 27-Jan-09, at 12:16 PM, Curt Steinmetz wrote: > In Sanskrit, Pali, Tibetan, Chinese, and/or any other language from a > culture with a well-established "mainstream" Buddhist tradition, is > there a consistent terminology of religious identification that > Buddhists use to refer to themselves (and to distinguish themselves > from > the followers of other religions)? > > The traditional word for what we denote in English as "Buddhism" > is, of > course, "Buddhadharma". What I am asking is whether or not anyone > knows > of one or more equivalent noun(s) for an adherent of the > Buddhadharma - > preferably ones that map as neatly to "Buddhist" as "Buddhadharma" > does > to "Buddhism"? > > Am I overlooking something obvious here? It wouldn't be the first > time..... > > Curt > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Wed Jan 28 10:15:06 2009 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 09:15:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Buddha-l] Around the World in 80 Faiths (BBC series) Message-ID: <182309.35237.qm@web54602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I was alerted to this by a post on another list: ? Around the World in 80 Faiths: ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7U87VRiwow ? Enjoy, Katherine From sfeite at adelphia.net Wed Jan 28 10:24:55 2009 From: sfeite at adelphia.net (S.A. Feite) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:24:55 -0500 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lynch and Paul McCartney promote TM in schools Message-ID: <5452D554-8FFB-49E6-A327-6F8B31BB1B80@adelphia.net> http://www.davidlynchfoundation.org/concert.html Send money now, to bring Hindu meditation to a school near you. Please join in and help celebrate the joining of church and state! DAVID LYNCH FOUNDATION FOR CONSCIOUSNESS-BASED EDUCATION AND WORLD PEACE THE DAVID LYNCH FOUNDATION PRESENTS THE WORLD HARMONY CONCERT Paul McCartney Donovan, Eddie Vedder Sheryl Crow, Paul Horn, Moby and more will perform a global benefit concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City on Saturday, April 4, 2009, in support of the David Lynch Foundation?s international initiative to teach one million children the Transcendental Meditation technique?and change the world overnight. Limited seats: A limited number of excellent seats have been reserved for friends of the David Lynch Foundation. From Kdorje at aol.com Wed Jan 28 12:06:56 2009 From: Kdorje at aol.com (Kdorje at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 14:06:56 EST Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lynch and Paul McCartney promote TM in schools Message-ID: Many forget, or are not aware, that separation of church and state as a central foundation of government is, if not unique to the US, the US is one of the very few countries where it has the importance that it does. In the UK and most other European countries the governments financially support the various religions, and religious beliefs are taught in public (that is, governmentally funded) schools as religion, not as a social science. Best wishes, Konchog Dorje In a message dated 1/28/2009 12:25:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sfeite at adelphia.net writes: http://www.davidlynchfoundation.org/concert.html Send money now, to bring Hindu meditation to a school near you. Please join in and help celebrate the joining of church and state! DAVID LYNCH FOUNDATION FOR CONSCIOUSNESS-BASED EDUCATION AND WORLD PEACE THE DAVID LYNCH FOUNDATION PRESENTS THE WORLD HARMONY CONCERT Paul McCartney Donovan, Eddie Vedder Sheryl Crow, Paul Horn, Moby and more will perform a global benefit concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City on Saturday, April 4, 2009, in support of the David Lynch Foundation?s international initiative to teach one million children the Transcendental Meditation technique?and change the world overnight. Limited seats: A limited number of excellent seats have been reserved for friends of the David Lynch Foundation. **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De cemailfooterNO62) From alex at chagchen.org Wed Jan 28 17:18:07 2009 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:18:07 +1100 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lynch and Paul McCartney promote TM in schools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000301c981a7$0ff5d360$2fe17a20$@org> I am not an expert in this field, but the comments below surprise me. Those of us with a cultural centre of gravity in Europe are often horrified at the close involvement of religion in the American state - god is on the dollar, and in the pledge of allegiance, for goodness' sake. Personally I think allegiance to god should, if not disqualify, certainly weigh heavily against someone standing for public office, on grounds of conflict of loyalty - but that's not a popular view, I know. It's true that officially the C of E is the state religion of the UK, though the Archbish of Canterbury has, I believe, been suggesting that this unholy anachronism should go. I'd be very surprised indeed if the government subsidises the C of E - surely most of its money comes from property? Do you have any data on that? I think it's true that German state supports churches, but only, as far as I know, through the Kirchensteuer, which is voluntary. When I worked there I, of course, opted out. As for France, separation of church and state (la?cit?) is pursued much more vigorously than in what I know of America (or the UK for that matter, of course). All the best Alex Wilding > -----Original Message----- > From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l- > bounces at mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Kdorje at aol.com > Sent: Thursday, 29 January 2009 6:07 AM > To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] David Lynch and Paul McCartney promote TM in schools > > > Many forget, or are not aware, that separation of church and state as a > central foundation of government is, if not unique to the US, the US is one of > the very few countries where it has the importance that it does. In the UK and > most other European countries the governments financially support the > various religions, and religious beliefs are taught in public (that is, > governmentally funded) schools as religion, not as a social science. > > Best wishes, > > Konchog Dorje > From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Wed Jan 28 17:22:10 2009 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Weng-Fai Wong) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:22:10 +0800 Subject: [Buddha-l] Another article of probable interest In-Reply-To: <000301c981a7$0ff5d360$2fe17a20$@org> References: <000301c981a7$0ff5d360$2fe17a20$@org> Message-ID: <4980F6B2.2030507@comp.nus.edu.sg> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/27/david-attenborough-science W. F. Wong From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 30 06:51:15 2009 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:51:15 +0100 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lynch and Paul McCartney promote TM in schools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <498305D3.2010302@xs4all.nl> Kdorje at aol.com schreef: > > Many forget, or are not aware, that separation of church and state as a > central foundation of government is, if not unique to the US, the US is one of > the very few countries where it has the importance that it does. In the UK and > most other European countries the governments financially support the > various religions, and religious beliefs are taught in public (that is, > governmentally funded) schools as religion, not as a social science. > > Best wishes, > > Konchog Dorje > The situation in Europe is rather complex. To hold a Christian service and to invoke God during the inauguration of a president would be thought of as highly inapropriate and a sign of religious bigotry in most European countries. So the separation in the U.S. is far from perfect in European eyes. In France the duplex ordo is very strict. In the U.K. situation is more vague, because hte queen is the head of the Anglican Church. In Germany some liasons exist on local level. In Italy and Portugal the Pope has real influence, but in Spain there's a strong atheist movement. The Churches in Skandinavia don't seem to have much political influence. Whereas in the Netherlands the separation is corrupted by the fact that the queen is traditionally protestant and there's still a considerable rural support for the Christian party who wants to undo the separation. The fact that religous groups are sponsored doesn't mean that religion takes part in politics as long as every religion is treated equally. Sports and arts are sponsored as well. Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl From Jackhat1 at aol.com Fri Jan 30 08:45:08 2009 From: Jackhat1 at aol.com (Jackhat1 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:45:08 EST Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lynch and Paul McCartney promote TM in schools Message-ID: In a message dated 1/30/2009 7:52:14 A.M. Central Standard Time, jehms at xs4all.nl writes: > Many forget, or are not aware, that separation of church and state as a > central foundation of government is, if not unique to the US, the US is one of > the very few countries where it has the importance that it does. In the UK and > most other European countries the governments financially support the > various religions, and religious beliefs are taught in public (that is, > governmentally funded) schools as religion, not as a social science. === I have not been following this thread so this might have already been said. Gary Wills has an interesting book out called Head and Heart: American Christianities. One of the points he makes is that the US is a very religious country as compared to the UK and the continent because of its unique separation of church and state. A state supported religion stifles religion's influence and growth. A religious free market is good for religion. Jack **************Know Your Numbers: Get tips and tools to help you improve your credit score. (http://www.walletpop.com/credit/credit-reports?ncid=emlcntuswall00000002) From jkirk at spro.net Fri Jan 30 11:08:57 2009 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:08:57 -0700 Subject: [Buddha-l] David Lynch and Paul McCartney promote TM in schools In-Reply-To: <498305D3.2010302@xs4all.nl> References: <498305D3.2010302@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: The situation in Europe is rather complex. To hold a Christian service and to invoke God during the inauguration of a president would be thought of as highly inapropriate and a sign of religious bigotry in most European countries. So the separation in the U.S. is far from perfect in European eyes. In France the duplex ordo is very strict. In the U.K. situation is more vague, because hte queen is the head of the Anglican Church. In Germany some liasons exist on local level. In Italy and Portugal the Pope has real influence, but in Spain there's a strong atheist movement. The Churches in Skandinavia don't seem to have much political influence. Whereas in the Netherlands the separation is corrupted by the fact that the queen is traditionally protestant and there's still a considerable rural support for the Christian party who wants to undo the separation. The fact that religous groups are sponsored doesn't mean that religion takes part in politics as long as every religion is treated equally. Sports and arts are sponsored as well. Erik Info: www.xs4all.nl/~jehms Weblog: http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=2950 Productie: http://www.olivepress.nl =========================================================== On another list a few of us were protesting the invocationing and benedictioning going on during the presidential inauguration, on constitutional grounds of course. We also have a "chaplain" in both houses of Congress, so there is quite a lot of religon going on there, too. I'm wondering if European countries also have chaplains in their parliaments? JK _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l