[Buddha-l] Re: the Niyamas

Sat May 31 12:36:45 MDT 2008

Weng Fai wrote:

"This brings up an interesting point. As far as I can tell, the five niyaamas are not well accepted in Mahayana. In fact, most Chinese Mahayanist I know tends to believe that 'all is karma.'"

That's interesting.&nbsp; I can attest that, here in Thailand, the niyaamas are alive and well, and constitute a fairly significant part of the scholarly outlook on cause and effect.&nbsp; Most monks and lay Thais seem to agree with the Chinese Mahayanists in that all is kamma, but the more highly educated members of the Sangha, who study the commentaries, are well aware and accepting of the Niyaama theory (please note that I am in no way belittling the Chinese view here).&nbsp; Perhaps it was a commentarial invention formulated in order to fill in some of the gaps in cause-and-effect that pat.iccasamupaada could not provide?&nbsp; E.g., it is hard to apply the links of dependent origination to a pebble falling from a cliff while no one is around (ok Yogacarins, don't jump on me, I know you're gonna get all tree-falling-in-the-woods on me).

Shen Shi'an wrote:

"The other 4 niyamas seem like the only ways through which kamma niyama can be expressed. If so, they are interlinked?"

I think that, yes, of course they are interlinked.&nbsp; As I mentioned in my original post, perhaps it is utu-niyaama that brings about cyclones, but kamma-niyaama that determines if one is injured or killed in said cyclone.&nbsp; In this way the link is quite clear.&nbsp; It gets a bit fuzzy, in my opinion, in other situations.&nbsp; If one is hit by a bus, we Theravadins would say that it is most certainly due to a lying-in-wait destructive kamma (upaghaataka kamma).&nbsp; But does this control the coming of the bus or one's walking in front of it? Why does a bus hitting a person necessarily result in physical impact?&nbsp; Why does one not pass through the bus?&nbsp; Why does the bus even move, i.e. why does the internal combustion engine work? These are certainly related to natural laws of cause and effect, which are better explained by utu- or biija- niyaama, both of which generally cover the physical laws of inanimate and animate objects,
 respectively.

Where it really gets interesting for me is the interaction between the kamma-niyaama and the citta-niyaama.&nbsp; I struggled for a long time to wrap my head around the fact that the two could be distinct.&nbsp; How can the kammic be removed from the psychological?&nbsp; For the answer, I think one has to look at the Abhidhamma and its implications for free will.&nbsp; One finds a tension and balance between free will and determinism in the theory of the 17 citta moments.&nbsp; It reveals that the first three thought moments, the Bhavangas, are influenced by vipaka of previous kamma; the next, the Dvaaraavajjana, is a kiriya; and the next four are vipaka.&nbsp; These four are receptive, related to perception of phenomena, which is directly related to previous kamma.&nbsp; The next moment, vottapana, is a kiriya, which is interesting in that it creates a sort of buffer between vipaka and the forthcoming kamma, an extra reassurance that there is a division
 between determination and free will.&nbsp; The javana moments which follow are open to free will and are designated as kamma.&nbsp; They are a response to the first 8 moments.&nbsp; We can see here that citta, which is obviously in the domain of the citta-niyaama, is inextricably linked to kamma, which supports your assertion above.&nbsp; How, then, are citta and kamma seperate?&nbsp; Well, I don't really know. Maybe we can look at the midpoint of the process, between the vipaka and kamma sections of citta.&nbsp; The vipaka&nbsp; moments certainly influence those of kamma, but they do not determine them outright.&nbsp; There is allowance for free will.&nbsp; Perhaps this is the domain of the citta-niyaama, where 'psychology' determines the options we choose, regardless of predisposition, in response to vipaka.

Feel free to disagree, this is merely my blurted-out observation.&nbsp;&nbsp;  Perhaps we need to defer further explanation of the matter to some of the more senior Buddha-L denizens with a better understanding of the Abhidhamma than I.&nbsp; I'm looking at you, Prof. Hayes. But I don't wanna hear any bunk about that filthy Abhidharmakosa ;)

By the way, does anyone else here think that Vasubandhu was playing a big practical joke on everyone?&nbsp; He wrote the Abhidharmakosa, the seminal text of the Sarvastivadins, and then founded Yogacara. In other words, he became the most important figure in a sect whose name means 'all is real', only to leave and found a sect whose central tenet is 'nothing is real (I'm simplifying, obviously).' I think he was just taking the piss, as the Brits say.  

--- On Sat, 31/5/08, buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com &lt;buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com&gt; wrote:
From: buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com &lt;buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com&gt;
Subject: buddha-l Digest, Vol 39, Issue 18
To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com
Date: Saturday, 31 May, 2008, 10:40 AM

Send buddha-l mailing list submissions to
	buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
	buddha-l-owner at mailman.swcp.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of buddha-l digest..."

Today's Topics:

   1. RE: Virtuous nature and animal minds--from New	ScientistPrint
      Edition (jkirk)
   2. The Niyamas (Wong Weng Fai)
   3. RE: The Niyamas ([DPD Web] Shen Shi'an)
   4. Re: Sharon Stone and Karma (Richard Hayes)
   5. Re: Sharon Stone and Karma (Wong Weng Fai)
   6. Re: Sharon Stone and Karma (Wong Weng Fai)
   7. Re: Sharon Stone and Karma (Curt Steinmetz)
   8. In desperate times, Burmese turn to their monks (jkirk)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 16:22:40 -0600
From: "jkirk" &lt;jkirk at spro.net&gt;
Subject: RE: [Buddha-l] Virtuous nature and animal minds--from New
	ScientistPrint Edition
To: "'Buddhist discussion forum'"
&lt;buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com&gt;
Message-ID: &lt;006b01c8c1da$81f3f7e0$0400a8c0 at OPTIPLEX&gt;
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Following the earlier message, here's another of possible
interest to some denizens, from The Guardian:
http://tinyurl.com/3saxgv 

Joanna

======================================

http://tinyurl.com/5rpqyg 

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 07:38:59 +0800 (SGT)
From: Wong Weng Fai &lt;wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg&gt;
Subject: [Buddha-l] The Niyamas
To: Buddhist discussion forum &lt;buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com&gt;
Message-ID: &lt;Pine.SOC.4.64.0805300737470.1378 at suna0.comp.nus.edu.sg&gt;
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Thu, 29 May 2008, Tyler Cann wrote:

&gt; If we accept the five niyaamas, as outlined in the Atthasaalinii,

This brings up an interesting point. As far as I can tell, the five 
niyaamas are not well accepted in Mahayana. In fact, most Chinese 
Mahayanist I know tends to believe that "all is karma".

Weng-Fai

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 09:06:11 +0800
From: "[DPD Web] Shen Shi'an" &lt;shian at kmspks.org&gt;
Subject: RE: [Buddha-l] The Niyamas
To: "Buddhist discussion forum" &lt;buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com&gt;
Message-ID:
	&lt;179F65D5F8DDA444910D688753F4157901C12070 at kmsexsvr01.temple.kmspks.org&gt;

Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

The other 4 niyamas seem like the only ways 
through which kamma niyama can be expressed. 
If so, they are interlinked?

-----Original Message-----
From: Wong Weng Fai [mailto:wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg] 
Sent: Friday, 30 May, 2008 7:39 AM
To: Buddhist discussion forum
Subject: [Buddha-l] The Niyamas

On Thu, 29 May 2008, Tyler Cann wrote:

&gt; If we accept the five niyaamas, as outlined in the Atthasaalinii,

This brings up an interesting point. As far as I can tell, the five 
niyaamas are not well accepted in Mahayana. In fact, most Chinese 
Mahayanist I know tends to believe that "all is karma".

Weng-Fai

_______________________________________________
buddha-l mailing list
buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com
http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 10:47:08 -0600
From: Richard Hayes &lt;rhayes at unm.edu&gt;
Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Sharon Stone and Karma
To: Buddhist discussion forum &lt;buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com&gt;
Message-ID: &lt;1212166029.5683.37.camel at localhost&gt;
Content-Type: text/plain

On Thu, 2008-05-29 at 16:25 -0400, Curt Steinmetz wrote:

&gt; But China is a vicious totalitarian state that has 
&gt; not only brutally suppressed the Tibetan people for over half a century 
&gt; - but is also responsible for a murderous campaign of extirpation 
&gt; against Buddhism (and other religions) among 1/6 of the human race.

A couple of days ago, I heard an NPR reporter interviewing Chinese
students at an English-language university in China. The interviews had
been taped before the Sichuan earthquake but were aired afterwards. The
interviewer asked several students about the Tibetan situation, and the
answers were almost exactly the same as answers we have all heard for
the past forty years, perhaps more---my own recollection of hearing
these responses goes back only that far. Altogether now, repeat with me
what Chinese students say about Tibet.

1. The Tibetan people were far worse off under Tibetan government than
they have been under Chinese government. Tibetan government was far more
brutal and repressive and intolerant of dissidence than any Chinese
government has been.

2. The Tibetans now have better access to health care, education, modern
technology, and transported foods and manufactured goods than ever
before in their history, and most Tibetans appreciate these changes.

3. Tibetans are being educated in Chinese, a language that gives them
access to a language that more than 25% of the world's population uses
as a written language, so they have been lifted out of a cultural ghetto
and made part of one of the oldest and most advanced cultures in human
history.

4. Tibetans are treated far better by the Han than American Indians and
African Americans have ever been treated by European Americans.

One is reminded of the line in Lewis Carroll's "The Hunting of the
Snark": "Say it three times and it's true." It's amazing
how much of
human history has operated under that observation. (All three candidates
in the current presidential race are exploiting it to the hilt.)

&gt; There ought to be some karma involved in that. Like the Rev. Jeremiah 
&gt; Wright said, chickens eventually come home to roost.

At least Rev. Jeremiah Wright got it right. Human beings were enslaved
by European Americans. There were genocidal campaigns against native
Americans sponsored by American Americans. American governments have
repeatedly made their citizens participate in unjust, illegal and
unnecessary wars. Established Americans have made life miserable for
countless Jews, Italians, Eastern Europeans, Asians, Mexicans and
Hispanic Americans who have come here in hopes of being some of the poor
and huddled masses who would be embraced in the welcoming bosom of Miss
Liberty. In the last two presidential elections in the United States,
successful efforts to disenfranchise large numers of black voters in key
swing states have been documented and publicized. Centuries of abuse of
disempowered peoples by American power brokers have naturally led to
deep anger and outrage that has expressed itself in human beings---not
earthquakes and other natural disasters---attacking the symbols of
American economic and military might. This account of chickens coming
home to roost is infinitely more wise and compassionate than a plastic
movie actress's inane comments about karmic seismic events, especially
when one notes (as you already have, Curt) that the earthquakes have
left the oppressors untouched but have victimized millions of already
oppressed people, making them even more miserable. 

-- 
Richard Hayes
Department of Philosophy
University of New Mexico

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 09:21:20 +0800 (SGT)
From: Wong Weng Fai &lt;wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg&gt;
Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Sharon Stone and Karma
To: Buddhist discussion forum &lt;buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com&gt;
Message-ID: &lt;Pine.SOC.4.64.0805310918470.18999 at suna0.comp.nus.edu.sg&gt;
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Fri, 30 May 2008, Richard Hayes wrote:

&gt; Altogether now, repeat with me
&gt; what Chinese students say about Tibet.

The vast majority of the Chinese Han diaspora, including the Taiwanese, 
almost holds these opinions to various degrees. Just my unscientific 
observation.

Weng-Fai

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 09:28:29 +0800 (SGT)
From: Wong Weng Fai &lt;wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg&gt;
Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Sharon Stone and Karma
To: Buddhist discussion forum &lt;buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com&gt;
Message-ID: &lt;Pine.SOC.4.64.0805310927310.21602 at suna0.comp.nus.edu.sg&gt;
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

Sorry... I meant "also hold"...

And China is planning mass exodus of people from the quake area. I guess 
some of these people may end up in Tibet.

Weng-Fai

On Sat, 31 May 2008, Wong Weng Fai wrote:

&gt;
&gt;
&gt; On Fri, 30 May 2008, Richard Hayes wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Altogether now, repeat with me
&gt;&gt; what Chinese students say about Tibet.
&gt;
&gt; The vast majority of the Chinese Han diaspora, including the Taiwanese, 
&gt; almost holds these opinions to various degrees. Just my unscientific 
&gt; observation.
&gt;
&gt; Weng-Fai
&gt;
&gt; _______________________________________________
&gt; buddha-l mailing list
&gt; buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com
&gt; http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l
&gt;
&gt;

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 21:35:06 -0400
From: Curt Steinmetz &lt;curt at cola.iges.org&gt;
Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Sharon Stone and Karma
To: Buddhist discussion forum &lt;buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com&gt;
Message-ID: &lt;4840AB4A.8000605 at cola.iges.org&gt;
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Wong Weng Fai wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; On Fri, 30 May 2008, Richard Hayes wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Altogether now, repeat with me
&gt;&gt; what Chinese students say about Tibet.
&gt;
&gt; The vast majority of the Chinese Han diaspora, including the 
&gt; Taiwanese, almost holds these opinions to various degrees. Just my 
&gt; unscientific observation.
&gt;

Actually I've heard that the Dalai Lama is rather popular in Taiwan. 
Chinese Buddhism is very heavily influenced by 
Esoteric/Mantrayana/Tantric Buddhism, so this seems reasonable. Doing a 
little googling shows at least two trips to Taiwan by His Holiness, one 
in 1997 and another in 2001. One article I saw even said that there are 
half a million "Tibetan Buddhists" in Taiwan!

I imagine that Taiwanese people are at least as nationalistic in general 
as mainland Chinese are - but they probably have a very different take 
on how nationalism relates to Tibet and Buddhism. After all, they 
certainly have a different take on how "nationalism" relates to the 
issue of Taiwan itself!

Curt Steinmetz

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 21:39:49 -0600
From: "jkirk" &lt;jkirk at spro.net&gt;
Subject: [Buddha-l] In desperate times, Burmese turn to their monks
To: "'Buddhist discussion forum'"
&lt;buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com&gt;
Message-ID: &lt;002b01c8c2cf$faa7aa10$0400a8c0 at OPTIPLEX&gt;
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

The usual press stories about Burma tend to suggest that theonly
institution left there is the military and its junta of corrupt
rulers. But the monkhood is the other institution, still strong,
still helping the people.
The  military are actually preventing people from receiving aid.
Huge contrast to the Chinese military dealing with their
earthquake.
Joanna

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/30/asia/monks.php

 &lt;http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/30/asia/monks.php#&gt; KUN
WAN, Myanmar: It is a scene Myanmar's ruling generals are
unlikely to see played out for themselves: As a convoy of trucks
carrying relief supplies, led by Buddhist monks, passed through
storm-devastated villages, hungry children and homeless mothers
bowed in supplication and respect.

"When I see those people, I want to cry," said Sitagu Sayadaw,
71, one of Myanmar's most respected senior monks.

At his makeshift clinic in this village near Bogalay, an
Irrawaddy Delta town 120 kilometers, or 75 miles, southwest of
Yangon, hundreds of villagers left destitute by Cyclone Nargis
arrive each day seeking the assistance they have not received
from the junta or international aid workers.

They paddle for hours on the stormy river, or carry their sick
parents on their backs through the mud and rain - all traveling
from kilometers around to reach the one source of help they know
they can always depend on: Buddhist monks.

The May 3 cyclone left more than 134,000 dead or missing and 2.4
million survivors grappling with hunger and homelessness.
Recently, people who had taken shelter at monasteries or gathered
on roadsides waiting for aid to arrive were being displaced
again, this time by the junta, which wants them to stop being an
embarrassment to the government and return to their villages "for
reconstruction." UN officials said Friday that refugees were also
being evicted from government-run camps.

But they have little left of their homes and find themselves
almost as exposed to the elements there as their mud-coated water
buffaloes. Meanwhile, outside aid is slow to arrive, with foreign
aid agencies gaining only incremental access to the hard-hit
Irrawaddy Delta and the government impounding cars of some
private Burmese donors.

"In my entire life, I have never seen a hospital. I don't know
where the government office is. I can't buy anything in the
market because I lost everything to the cyclone," said Thi Dar.
"So I came to the monk."

With tears welling in her eyes, the 45-year-old woman pressed her
hands together in respect before the first monk she saw at
Sitagu's clinic and told her story. The other eight members of
her family were killed in the cyclone. She now felt suicidal but
no longer had anyone to talk with. The other day, word reached
her village that a monk had opened a clinic 10 kilometers
upriver. So on Thursday, she got up early and caught the first
boat going upstream.

Nay Lin, 36, a volunteer doctor at the Kun Wan clinic, one of the
six emergency clinic shelters Sitagu has opened in the delta,
said: "Our patients suffer from infected wounds, abdominal pains
and vomiting. They also need counseling for mental trauma,
anxiety and depression."

Since the cyclone, the Burmese have become even closer to the
monks while their alienation from the junta grows. This bodes ill
for the government, which brutally cracked down on thousands of
monks when they took to the streets last September appealing to
the generals to improve conditions for the people. [more in
article]

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
buddha-l mailing list
buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com
http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l

End of buddha-l Digest, Vol 39, Issue 18
****************************************

      __________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html