[Buddha-l] Re: Aama do.sa I

[Dan Lusthaus]

Hi Joy,

> Yes, the only point I wanted to make was that nothing human is foreign to
Buddhism. One sometimes forgets one has the tendancy to idealise one's
favourite system.

Dan:
I have no illusions about that. Much earlier in this thread I already
pointed out that while Buddha tried to replace magical thinking with causal
analysis, Buddhists subsequently re-imported magical thinking with a
vengeance. At a magic show the difference between magical and causal
thinking is that those thinking magically fall for the trick, while the
causal analyst figures out how it was done.

As for the apocalyptic stuff in terms of Buddhism -- the situation could be
painted in much darker colors. They didn't just speculate about a dark age
of losing Dharma -- they formed and joined revolts (usually called in the
literature "peasant revolts"); in Japan all the major (and some minor)
temples had standing armies composed of monks and mercenaries. They set
seige to each other, and challenged the local rulers, even winning over and
ruling an entire province with their army. Nobunaga reunified Japan in the
16th c. only after setting seige to and annhilating the Buddhist monastic
fortresses, most putting up fierce and sustained resistance, putting an end
that splendid institution in Japan. Apocalyptic thinking also led Japanese
Buddhists to abandon traditional vinaya (e.g., marrying, diet, etc.) in the
belief that the age of decadent Dharma required such things to hasten the
coming of the next Buddha. Magical thinking is pernicious, even when dressed
up in Buddhist garb.

Joy:
> According to the Buddha the cardinal problem is avidya, but also craving.
I doubt precise thinking is a sufficient cause of Awakening.

Dan:
Such is what Buddha said. Clear thinking is causal, hence to think of a
symphony, or a dream, etc., means to analyze its causes and conditions. To
feel attraction or repulsion toward such things also requires analysis. Pain
leads to avoidance, pleasure to attachment -- both reactions establish
habitual behaviors and attitudes. If one untangles how conditioning works,
then one can apply that to neutralize one's own conditioning. Neutralized
conditioning is nirvana.

Craving is the byproduct, not the root cause. That's why in the
pratitya-samutpada model it comes seventh on the list of nidanas, while
avidya is #1. Desire receives prominence in discourse and practice because
it is more tangible, more easily observed, more easily engaged and wrestled
with. Ignorance -- precisely because one is ignorant of it -- is more
amorphous, intangible, "difficult to understand." But desire doesn't cause
ignorance. Ignorance causes desire.

Joy:
> To bring this back to Buddhism, there are many stories about Buddhist
tantrics (but I have seen similar stories in Chan or Zen litterature),
seasoned practitioners, going through similar periods of despair, utter
despair, very near suicide, but they always tend to have a happy end.

Dan:
That's why they are "stories."

Joy:
> And it basically boils down to surrender...

Dan:
Al-Islam... OK, I give up!

Dan