[Buddha-l] Loving your object of study

[jkirk]

" It is possible to engage in (a) as a seeker and not practice scholarship.
The fact that we can use terms like "observing" and "analyzing" to describe
activities in both (a) and (b) does not make (a) and (b) the same -- or even
the named activities the same."

Well, yes--but you left out "interpretation".  I didn't claim they were the
same. 
However, I do consider that  "It is possible to engage in (a) 'as a seeker'"
and also/still 
engage in scholarship.
Later when you said 
"In terms of (a), we might also want to delineate:
- speculative theoretical reflection;
- application of cognitive insights and meditations;
- deconstructive meditations;
- other applications of the intellect.
Thus even within (a), not all "intellectual" approaches to liberation are of
the same method or caliber or produce the same (typical) results."

"...I remain tentatively cautious about an "intellect only" path."

Makes sense to me, but chacun a son gout........we only know that some of
the ancients were "enlightened," however they became so, because that is
what the ancient reports claim. Some texts even claimed that just by copying
the text (say, Lotus S.) or reading it subject would experience
enlightenment.

Cheers, Joanna K.
==================
Hello Denizens,

Regarding this jhana/intellect/service reference cited by Richard:

(1) I'm not sure the sutta has been identified yet.  Richard, will you
provide the quote with a book/page# reference?

(2) I stumbled into another sutta entitled "Scholars and Meditators" (AN VI,
46) in which Mahacunda tells monks who are meditators and scholars to stop
judging each other.  Excerpt:

"Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: 'Though we are
Dhamma-experts, we will praise also those monks who are meditators.' And
why?  Such outstanding men are rare in the world who have personal
experience of the deathless element (Nibbana).
"And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: 'Though we
ourselves are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are
Dhamma-experts.' And why?  Such outstanding persons are rare in the world
who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult subject." (Thera &
Bodhi, _Numerical Discourses of the Buddha_, BPS 1999, p.164)

Of note here: this appears to suggest that it is the meditators and not the
scholars/dhamma-experts who access Nibbana.

(3) Jack, I agree with the distinction you have articulated (with the
'learning to swim' vs. 'applying scholarship to swimming' metaphor) which
echoes Curt's Yogi Berra quote on theory vs. practice.  In the current
discussion, to avoid the 'category mistake' it strikes me as useful to
delineate (not to mutual exclusion) roughly:
(a) intellectual inquiry which aims for and impacts one's own liberation;
(b) intellectual inquiry which doesn't aim for or impact one's own
liberation;

It is possible to engage in (b) passionately as a scholar (or speculative
philosopher) and not practice the dharma.  It is possible to engage in (a)
as a seeker and not practice scholarship.  The fact that we can use terms
like "observing" and "analyzing" to describe activities in both (a) and (b)
does not make (a) and (b) the same -- or even the named activities the same.



............... and because all major advances in my own practice have come
through practices which included essential non-intellectual components -- I
remain tentatively cautious about an "intellect only" path.

Two Rupees,
-Hans Gruenig.

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.1/1141 - Release Date: 11/20/2007
11:34 AM