[Buddha-l] Back to the core values?

[Joy Vriens]

Lance, 

>>I  
>There is a mass of discussion about this, but I don't think there is  
>any doubt that Asoka talks in his inscriptions about dha(r)mma  
>officials and envoys who are royal servants. Moreover, their duties  
>concerned all religious groups and the teachings they set forth are  
>clearly intended to apply to all such groups.  

Thanks again. I had the wrong idea about Asoka (but then so do many books on the history of Buddhism). So basically it was a sort of promotion of moral values in general?  

>>Again I think so for pragmatic reasons. Think of a group of bhikkus  
>>traveling from place top place, from hamlet to hamlet. It's easier  
>>to travel and to find food in small groups. It is cute to believe in  
>>a very charismatic person, the Buddha, to whom everybody wants to be  
>>close to and everybody wants to travel with. But how could that work  
>>in practice?  
  
>Think of it as like the arrival of a large fair.  

That actually helps a lot. But it would be a later development. It's easy to imagine the persuasive power (and glory) of a whole caravan coming to a small village. It must have been impressive. It's also easy to imagine that it could have become a sort of tactic. But I expect it would require some organisation. The villages would be warned in advance that a caravan was approaching so they could make the necessary preparations. There goes the romantic idea of free roaming bhikkus...  

>>"2° Milieu magique.  
>>L'Inde ancienne considérait souvent le péché comme une impureté 
>>d'ordre physique, une matière qui se colle à l'âme, un fluide qui se  
>>communique par contact, une maladie qu'on prend sans le savoir. Donc  
>>le péché peut être lavé par le bain ou « cuit » par la pénitence'.  
>>Les actes sacrificiels agissent mécaniquement et par leur vertu  
>>propre. La pénitence confère des pouvoirs surnaturels. La  
>>malédiction des ascètes fait tomber des pluies de cendres; le  
>>mendiant jeûne « contre le village » où il n'a pas été accueilli, et  
>>la force de son jeûne attire sur les avares les pires catastrophes  
>>(2).  
>>Le Bouddhisme nettoie ce « magisme ». etc.  
>>  
>>(2). Notes bouddhiques, dans Bulletin de l'Académie de Belgique 7 mars 1921.  
  
>I think LVP's Jesuit prejudices show a little here. But he is talking  
>about the religious milieu, not about Buddhism. This is the kind of  
>thing one finds in the Epics and similar contexts. Buddhism indeed  
>grew up in a magical milieu and has often, even usually, survived in  
>one.  

>But I don't believe that fasting to punish a village or bring down  
>magical retribution is a common idea in Ancient (Indian) Buddhism.  
>And LVP does not suggest that it is.  

No he doesn't, but it describes the milieu and the villagers' attitude towards visiting renunciants. Their attitude wasn't devoid of fear or awe. And they must have been less inclined to refuse hospitality to renunciants. Even though the Buddhists weren't particularly into magic, it was generally believed that renunciants did have magical powers. The Buddha did have to speak out against the use of or pretention to have powers. Besides the magical retribution simply became karmic retribution. 

Joy