From Margaret.Gouin at bristol.ac.uk Wed Aug 1 01:49:17 2007 From: Margaret.Gouin at bristol.ac.uk (Margaret Gouin) Date: Wed Aug 1 01:49:25 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Women's Role in the Sangha / HH the Dalai Lama on Bhikshuni Ordination in the Tibetan Tradition In-Reply-To: References: <46AEB56B.3030700@gmx.net> <000001c7d3d6$d0e0e450$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <60349.88.203.57.78.1185954557.squirrel@webmail-dev.bris.ac.uk> On Wed, August 1, 2007 2:51 am, Piya Tan wrote: > The very first paper by the Congress of Western Buddhist Nuns, entitled > Research regarding the Lineage of Bhiksuni Ordination > located at: > http://www.congress-on-buddhist-women.org/index.php?id=29 > seems to be filled mostly with dots and dashes, although it is PDF. > It comes up fine for me. Which probably means I have the font they used on my computer and you don't. This seems to me to be a major problem with PDF files--people assume that just making a PDF will include all the necessary fonts--it doesn't. You have to embed the necessary fonts so that other people can read them. I can try to figure out which font it is and let you know. -- Margaret Gouin PhD Candidate Centre for Buddhist Studies Department of Theology and Religious Studies University of Bristol (UK) From cfynn at gmx.net Wed Aug 1 03:35:37 2007 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Wed Aug 1 03:36:10 2007 Subject: Font problems (was: Re: [Buddha-l] Women's Role in the Sangha) In-Reply-To: <60349.88.203.57.78.1185954557.squirrel@webmail-dev.bris.ac.uk> References: <46AEB56B.3030700@gmx.net> <000001c7d3d6$d0e0e450$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <60349.88.203.57.78.1185954557.squirrel@webmail-dev.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: <46B053E9.7070301@gmx.net> Margaret Gouin wrote: > On Wed, August 1, 2007 2:51 am, Piya Tan wrote: >> The very first paper by the Congress of Western Buddhist Nuns, entitled >> Research regarding the Lineage of Bhiksuni Ordination > >> located at: >> http://www.congress-on-buddhist-women.org/index.php?id=29 >> seems to be filled mostly with dots and dashes, although it is PDF. > It comes up fine for me. Which probably means I have the font they used on > my computer and you don't. This seems to me to be a major problem with PDF > files--people assume that just making a PDF will include all the necessary > fonts--it doesn't. You have to embed the necessary fonts so that other > people can read them. I can try to figure out which font it is and let you > know. I had the same problem with Acrobat 8 Reader though it opens OK with Acrobat 7. The font is TimesCS Roman - The font *is* embedded, but there seems to be some small fault in the Regular / Normal version of the font which causes Acrobat 8 to have a problem extracting or displaying it properly. The italic and bold faces seem to work fine in both Acrobat 7 & 8. BTW I don't know why anyone is still using fonts with the non-standard & outdated CS & CSX encodings in order to display diacritic characters. Windows (2000, XP and later), Mac OS-X, Linux and Unix all support Unicode - which has all the diacritics characters needed by Indologists and others. John Smith who created the CSX fonts has stoped distributing them and now has free Unicode fonts available: On that site John also has some Word macros available to convert old documents from CSX encoding to Unicode - as well as some free Devanagari fonts. A couple of other free Unicode fonts with diacritic characters are Gentium (a very high quality font by Victor Gaultney) and Linux Libertine The "Georgia" font which comes with MS Windows also seems to have all the necessary diacritic characters for transliterating Sanskrit & Pali. Using Unicode / iso10646 encoding in your documents with properly encoded fonts should mean that they may be searched using Google, Yahoo and so on if you make the documents available on the Web. - Chris From dharmafarer at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 03:41:02 2007 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Wed Aug 1 03:41:09 2007 Subject: Font problems (was: Re: [Buddha-l] Women's Role in the Sangha) In-Reply-To: <46B053E9.7070301@gmx.net> References: <46AEB56B.3030700@gmx.net> <000001c7d3d6$d0e0e450$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <60349.88.203.57.78.1185954557.squirrel@webmail-dev.bris.ac.uk> <46B053E9.7070301@gmx.net> Message-ID: Thanks again Chris for the detailed info. A student of mine suggested Foxit Reader and it works. Thanks again Piya On 8/1/07, Christopher Fynn wrote: > > Margaret Gouin wrote: > > > On Wed, August 1, 2007 2:51 am, Piya Tan wrote: > >> The very first paper by the Congress of Western Buddhist Nuns, entitled > >> Research regarding the Lineage of Bhiksuni Ordination > > < > http://www.congress-on-buddhist-women.org/fileadmin/files/Establishing%20Full%20Ordination%207_dia.pdf > > > >> located at: > >> http://www.congress-on-buddhist-women.org/index.php?id=29 > >> seems to be filled mostly with dots and dashes, although it is PDF. > > > > It comes up fine for me. Which probably means I have the font they used > on > > my computer and you don't. This seems to me to be a major problem with > PDF > > files--people assume that just making a PDF will include all the > necessary > > fonts--it doesn't. You have to embed the necessary fonts so that other > > people can read them. I can try to figure out which font it is and let > you > > know. > > > I had the same problem with Acrobat 8 Reader though it opens OK with > Acrobat 7. > > The font is TimesCS Roman - The font *is* embedded, but there seems to be > some > small fault in the Regular / Normal version of the font which causes > Acrobat 8 > to have a problem extracting or displaying it properly. The italic and > bold > faces seem to work fine in both Acrobat 7 & 8. > > > BTW > I don't know why anyone is still using fonts with the non-standard & > outdated > CS & CSX encodings in order to display diacritic characters. > Windows (2000, XP and later), Mac OS-X, Linux and Unix all support Unicode > - which has all the diacritics characters needed by Indologists and > others. > John Smith who created the CSX fonts has stoped distributing them and now > has free Unicode fonts available: > > > On that site John also has some Word macros available to convert old > documents > from CSX encoding to Unicode - as well as some free Devanagari fonts. > > A couple of other free Unicode fonts with diacritic characters are > Gentium (a very high quality font by Victor Gaultney) > < > http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=Gentium_download > > > and Linux Libertine > > > The "Georgia" font which comes with MS Windows also seems to have all the > necessary diacritic characters for transliterating Sanskrit & Pali. > > Using Unicode / iso10646 encoding in your documents with properly encoded > fonts > should mean that they may be searched using Google, Yahoo and so on if you > make > the documents available on the Web. > > - Chris > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From jkirk at spro.net Wed Aug 1 09:00:53 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Aug 1 09:00:57 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self Message-ID: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> X-posted. One wonders if they aren't about to reinvent the wheel on both accounts. Joanna ============== Universities of Sussex and Lancaster, UK Research Associate: Indian Conceptions of Self (3 Year AHRC project) Deadline: 17/08/2007 A three year AHRC funded Research Associateship in connection with a joint project run between the Department of Philosophy, University of Sussex and the Department of Religious Studies, University of Lancaster. The aim of the project is to investigate Indian conceptions of self, and specifically critiques of Buddhist theories of self. The project investigators are Prof. Jonardon Ganeri (Sussex) and Prof. C Ram-Prasad (Lancaster). For more information, refer to the website below. Contact E-Mail: jonardon@gmail.com Web: http://www.personnel.lancs.ac.uk/vacancydets.aspx?jobid=A900 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.0/927 - Release Date: 7/30/2007 5:02 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.0/927 - Release Date: 7/30/2007 5:02 PM From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Aug 1 10:52:47 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Aug 1 10:53:00 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <200708011052.47944.rhayes@unm.edu> On Wednesday 01 August 2007 09:00, jkirk wrote: > One wonders if they aren't about to reinvent the wheel on both accounts. No question ever becomes obsolete in philosophy. The question of self and what no-self means has been a very hot topic in recent years, and people are finally pushing beyond the flat and boring accounts that most of us grew up listening to our professors drone on about. The principal investigators in this project are most excellent thinkers and scholars and should come up with some interesting material. Does anyone have any reactions to Thanissaro Bhikkhu's claim in the Summer 2007 issue of Tricycle? An oversimplified summary of his claim is that ego is an indispensable part of the psyche and that whatever else Buddhism may be teaching, it is definitely not encouraging people to dump their egos. -- Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes http://dayamati.blogspot.com From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Aug 1 10:57:11 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Aug 1 10:57:25 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pure Conversation vs koan In-Reply-To: <46AF4DC8.1090301@cola.iges.org> References: <46AF4DC8.1090301@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <200708011057.12140.rhayes@unm.edu> On Tuesday 31 July 2007 08:57, curt wrote: > Wong Weng Fai wrote: > > Yup. "Qing" is the character for "pure" and "tan" is the character for > > "conversation". I believe it is suppose to mean "a conversation pure > > of worldly concerns." The world, dust etc. being characterized as > > pollutants. > > Nice! That makes it sound even more "zenny". That wasn't what I was > expecting "pure" to mean! It sounds "zenny" only because it sounds so traditionally Buddhist. I can easily imagine almost any Buddhist of any tradition interpreting "pure" in that way. Just out of curiosity, Curt, what did you expect "pure" to mean? (Or did you simply have no expectations at all, as would be true of, say, an agnostic?) -- Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Aug 1 11:40:35 2007 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Aug 1 11:41:05 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pure Conversation vs koan In-Reply-To: <200708011057.12140.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <46AF4DC8.1090301@cola.iges.org> <200708011057.12140.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <46B0C593.7070000@cola.iges.org> Richard Hayes wrote: > On Tuesday 31 July 2007 08:57, curt wrote: > >> Wong Weng Fai wrote: >> >>> Yup. "Qing" is the character for "pure" and "tan" is the character for >>> "conversation". I believe it is suppose to mean "a conversation pure >>> of worldly concerns." The world, dust etc. being characterized as >>> pollutants. >>> >> Nice! That makes it sound even more "zenny". That wasn't what I was >> expecting "pure" to mean! >> > > It sounds "zenny" only because it sounds so traditionally Buddhist. I can > easily imagine almost any Buddhist of any tradition interpreting "pure" in > that way. Just out of curiosity, Curt, what did you expect "pure" to mean? > (Or did you simply have no expectations at all, as would be true of, say, an > agnostic?) > > I think that my expectation was that a "pure conversation" would be one that was completely heartfelt and intimate. Dang, the Greek philosophers had a really good word for it, which I can't remember. It's what Socrates was always aiming for - for people to freely and spontaneously express themselves without calculation - and without respect to people's social rank, age, etc. The Greek word I'm thinking literally means something like "speeking freely", I think. It was considered one of the perks of being a "real" philosopher that within that circle whether you were a slave or an Emperor you could speak your mind and what you said was supposed to be taken on it's merits not on "the standing" of who said it. - Curt From jkirk at spro.net Wed Aug 1 12:07:21 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:07:24 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <200708011052.47944.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708011052.47944.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <002201c7d466$cea522b0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Does anyone have any reactions to Thanissaro Bhikkhu's claim in the Summer 2007 issue of Tricycle? An oversimplified summary of his claim is that ego is an indispensable part of the psyche and that whatever else Buddhism may be teaching, it is definitely not encouraging people to dump their egos. -- Richard P. Hayes ========================= I don't get Tricycle so haven't seen this article. Depends on what is meant by the term "ego." Is a reified Freudian concept intended here? I agree with the idea that some sort of a notion of self is necessary for survival, but that agreement doesn't refer to a notion of a reified Self ( as anthematised in Buddhism), or something called the Ego--any more than I go along with something called the Subconscious, the Id, the Super-ego, et al. Joanna Kirkpatrick No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.0/929 - Release Date: 7/31/2007 5:26 PM From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Aug 1 12:08:03 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:08:15 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pure Conversation vs koan In-Reply-To: <46B0C593.7070000@cola.iges.org> References: <200708011057.12140.rhayes@unm.edu> <46B0C593.7070000@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <200708011208.03602.rhayes@unm.edu> On Wednesday 01 August 2007 11:40, curt wrote: > I think that my expectation was that a "pure conversation" would be one > that was completely heartfelt and intimate. Dang, the Greek philosophers > had a really good word for it, which I can't remember. It's what > Socrates was always aiming for - for people to freely and spontaneously > express themselves without calculation - and without respect to people's > social rank, age, etc. The Greek word I'm thinking literally means > something like "speeking freely", I think. It was considered one of the > perks of being a "real" philosopher that within that circle whether you > were a slave or an Emperor you could speak your mind and what you said > was supposed to be taken on it's merits not on "the standing" of who > said it. I'm not sure which Greek word you are thinking about. A very similar thing was said in the opening of Milinda's Questions. When Milinda invites Nagasena to converse with him, Nagasena asks whether Milinda plans to speak as a king or as a scholar (pandita). Kings (and some American presidents), he explains, become angry when they are contradicted and punish those who disagree with them. Scholars, on the other hand, speak openly and freely without fear of being challenged. The exact words (in Horner's translation): \begin{quote} When the lerned are conversing, sire, a turning over (of a subject) is made and an unravelling is made and a refutation is made and a redress is made and a specific point is made against it, and the learned are not angy in consequence---it is thus, sire that the lerned converse. \end{quote} Nagasena's description of conversation among pundits is, of course, the model that we all strive to follow on buddha-l, where anger is as rare as New Mexican meal without chile. -- Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Wed Aug 1 12:26:42 2007 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:21:54 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pure Conversation vs koan References: <200708011057.12140.rhayes@unm.edu><46B0C593.7070000@cola.iges.org> <200708011208.03602.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <033701c7d469$82c06550$1a437257@zen> Richard Hayes wrote: > \begin{quote} > When the lerned are conversing, sire, a turning over (of a subject) is > made > and an unravelling is made and a refutation is made and a redress is made > and > a specific point is made against it, and the learned are not angy in > consequence---it is thus, sire that the lerned converse. > \end{quote} Or as Fritz Staal put it, "What kare us logickers for grammer ?" Stephen Hodge From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Aug 1 12:24:15 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:24:28 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <002201c7d466$cea522b0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708011052.47944.rhayes@unm.edu> <002201c7d466$cea522b0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <200708011224.15858.rhayes@unm.edu> On Wednesday 01 August 2007 12:07, jkirk wrote: > I don't get Tricycle so haven't seen this article. > Depends on what is meant by the term "ego." > Is a reified Freudian concept intended here? I think something like a Freudian or Jungian notion of ego is at work here. I don't think the Freudian notions is reified. It is certainly not static and unchangeable. As far as I can tell, the only view of self that Buddhists denied was any notion that depicts the self as static, uncaused, unchanging and permanent. But what the Buddhists denied is something that no one in modern times ever affirms. In other words, the Buddhist view has really become the standard view in modern thought. > I agree with the idea that some sort of a notion of self is necessary for > survival, but that agreement doesn't refer to a notion of a reified Self ( > as anthematised in Buddhism), or something called the Ego--any more than I > go along with something called the Subconscious, the Id, the Super-ego, et > al. Freud said nothing about th subconscious. That was the invention of later followers of Freud. What Freud talked about was the unconscious (das Unbew?sst), by which he meant psychologically active impulses to action of which a person is not fully unaware. Buddhists talked about very much the same thing, except they called it karma-vipaaka. I don't think anyone who agrees with Buddhist teachings on karma would dispute the claims of depth psychologists that a great deal of what influences our behavior is hidden from us. Commitment to karma seems to require a commitment to the notion of an unconscious. -- Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Aug 1 12:30:45 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:30:57 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pure Conversation vs koan In-Reply-To: <033701c7d469$82c06550$1a437257@zen> References: <200708011208.03602.rhayes@unm.edu> <033701c7d469$82c06550$1a437257@zen> Message-ID: <200708011230.45574.rhayes@unm.edu> On Wednesday 01 August 2007 12:26, Stephen Hodge wrote: > Or as Fritz Staal put it, "What kare us logickers for grammer ?" I'm not sure what your point is, Stephen, but the quip attirbuted to Staal reminds me of a piece of advice my Sanskrit grammar professor gave us (several times): "When among logicians, say you are a grammarian. When among grammarians, say you are a logician. When among both logicians and grammarians, say you are neither. When among folk who are neither logicians nor grammarians, say you are both." That advice has served me well over the years and has got me out of many a ticklish pickle. -- Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From jkirk at spro.net Wed Aug 1 13:15:56 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Aug 1 13:15:59 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <200708011224.15858.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><200708011052.47944.rhayes@unm.edu><002201c7d466$cea522b0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708011224.15858.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <005f01c7d470$6332fca0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> On Wednesday 01 August 2007 12:07, jkirk wrote: > I don't get Tricycle so haven't seen this article. > Depends on what is meant by the term "ego." > Is a reified Freudian concept intended here? I think something like a Freudian or Jungian notion of ego is at work here. I don't think the Freudian notions is reified. It is certainly not static and unchangeable. As far as I can tell, the only view of self that Buddhists denied was any notion that depicts the self as static, uncaused, unchanging and permanent. But what the Buddhists denied is something that no one in modern times ever affirms. In other words, the Buddhist view has really become the standard view in modern thought. > I agree with the idea that some sort of a notion of self is necessary > for survival, but that agreement doesn't refer to a notion of a > reified Self ( as anthematised in Buddhism), or something called the > Ego--any more than I go along with something called the Subconscious, > the Id, the Super-ego, et al. Freud said nothing about th subconscious. That was the invention of later followers of Freud. What Freud talked about was the unconscious (das Unbew?sst), by which he meant psychologically active impulses to action of which a person is not fully unaware. Buddhists talked about very much the same thing, except they called it karma-vipaaka. I don't think anyone who agrees with Buddhist teachings on karma would dispute the claims of depth psychologists that a great deal of what influences our behavior is hidden from us. Commitment to karma seems to require a commitment to the notion of an unconscious. -- Richard P. Hayes =========== Of course, I was not rejecting the notion of unconscious feelings, ideas, motives, etc--only the common (if not accepted by intellectuals) idea of "an Unconscious". (I first used the term unconscious, then changed it to sub-conscious--oops). After Freud, many of his key ideas became reified. There were even diagrams of the psyche, showing where every entity was located. Modern intellectual and critical developments may have decided to view ego or a self as non-static and changeable. However, that is critically not the idea of selfhood that pervades a lot of psychological and other sorts of counseling today. It's also the common or vernacular idea--that self is a Something, that it should be (if it is not) unchangeable, one must be true to one's self, etc etc. The contemporary preoccupation with/fad for identity concerns is a case in point here. Identity phrased as, say, tribal or religion-affiliation, is generally considered to be a desirable feature of selfhood, to be retained (at all costs?--depends..). So, although intellectuals and academics might agree with the Buddhist view of self as variable rather than uncaused, permanent etc., the day to day ballpark view of people neither intellectuals nor academics, nor monks, et al--is that self is a Thing-- to be discovered, then cherished, developed, merged with some kind of cultural identity, aso. Joanna No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.0/929 - Release Date: 7/31/2007 5:26 PM From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Aug 1 13:37:48 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Aug 1 13:38:01 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <005f01c7d470$6332fca0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708011224.15858.rhayes@unm.edu> <005f01c7d470$6332fca0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <200708011337.48729.rhayes@unm.edu> On Wednesday 01 August 2007 13:15, jkirk wrote: > Modern intellectual and critical developments may have decided to view ego > or a self as non-static and changeable. However, that is critically not the > idea of selfhood that pervades a lot of psychological and other sorts of > counseling today. This is quite surprising. I can't imagine anyone who believes in counselling thinking that the self is fixed in nature. If one believed that, then one would surely think all therapeutic interventions would be in vain. > Identity phrased as, say, tribal or religion-affiliation, is generally > considered to be a desirable feature of selfhood, to be retained (at all > costs?--depends..). So, although intellectuals and academics might agree > with the Buddhist view of self as variable rather than uncaused, permanent > etc., the day to day ballpark view of people neither intellectuals nor > academics, nor monks, et al--is that self is a Thing-- to be discovered, Well, I'll have to take your word for this. I don't know anyone who thinks in the way you describe, but then I don;t spend much time in ballparks with people who are neither academics, intellectuals or monks. This sounds like an interesting item for a Pew Research Foundation poll. After all, Pew reports that something like 80% of Americans believe there is such a place as hell (although only 10% believe they might go there when they die). I personally don't know anyone who believes that hell exists (except as a country presided over or illegally invaded by George W. Bush), so this shows that my perceptions of what is commonly believed are heavily conditioned by the excellent company I keep. (One thing I have always taken very seriously is the Buddhist teaching that the secret to happiness is associating with good people. That's why I stay away from ballparks filled with people who believe that tribal affiliation, religious identity and gender are permanent realities rather than impermanent, provisional and arbitrary, not to mention delusional, constructs.) -- Richard From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Wed Aug 1 15:06:44 2007 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed Aug 1 15:02:03 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pure Conversation vs koan References: <200708011208.03602.rhayes@unm.edu><033701c7d469$82c06550$1a437257@zen> <200708011230.45574.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <004501c7d47f$e3d52400$42427257@zen> Richard Hayes wrote: > I'm not sure what your point is, Stephen, but the quip attirbuted to Staal > reminds me of a piece of advice my Sanskrit grammar professor gave us > (several times): "When among logicians, say you are a grammarian. When > among > grammarians, say you are a logician. When among both logicians and > grammarians, say you are neither. When among folk who are neither > logicians > nor grammarians, say you are both." The "lerned" ? But the piece of advice you quote is most amusing. Stephen Hodge From slachs at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 1 15:54:00 2007 From: slachs at worldnet.att.net (Stuart Lachs) Date: Wed Aug 1 15:54:08 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pure Conversation vs koan References: <46AF4DC8.1090301@cola.iges.org> <200708011057.12140.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <005801c7d486$7ab70770$6901a8c0@Stuki> --- On Wednesday, August 01, 2007, Richard Hayes wrote: > It sounds "zenny" only because it sounds so traditionally Buddhist. I can > easily imagine almost any Buddhist of any tradition interpreting "pure" in > that way. Just out of curiosity, Curt, what did you expect "pure" to mean? > (Or did you simply have no expectations at all, as would be true of, say, > an > agnostic?) Some years ago Mario Pocesci wrote a paper where in he translated a few paragraphs for Ma-tsu. He then translated the same material only adding the sources of the material, which were from one sutra or another. Essentially, Ma-tsu had taken lines from one sutra or another and ran them together with connecting phrases. The first translation sounded "zenny." The second translation giving the sources of the lines as in " As the Lotus Sutra says,....Then the Vimilakirti Sutra adds, ...." sounded very much like traditional Buddhism. It was interesting to see how my own perception of the Ma-tsu material changed so by adding the sources. Sorry, but I do not remember the title of Mario's paper. Stuart From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Aug 1 16:20:46 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Aug 1 16:20:57 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pure Conversation vs koan In-Reply-To: <004501c7d47f$e3d52400$42427257@zen> References: <200708011230.45574.rhayes@unm.edu> <004501c7d47f$e3d52400$42427257@zen> Message-ID: <200708011620.46634.rhayes@unm.edu> On Wednesday 01 August 2007 15:06, Stephen Hodge wrote: > The "lerned" ? I types fast, and I proofrad little. -- Richard From jkirk at spro.net Wed Aug 1 17:21:18 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Aug 1 17:21:22 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <200708011337.48729.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><200708011224.15858.rhayes@unm.edu><005f01c7d470$6332fca0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708011337.48729.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <002401c7d492$aa580f40$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> On Wednesday 01 August 2007 13:15, jkirk wrote: > Modern intellectual and critical developments may have decided to view > ego or a self as non-static and changeable. However, that is > critically not the idea of selfhood that pervades a lot of > psychological and other sorts of counseling today. Richard: This is quite surprising. I can't imagine anyone who believes in counselling thinking that the self is fixed in nature. If one believed that, then one would surely think all therapeutic interventions would be in vain. JK: Actually it's not surprising at all, except to someone like you who has little to do with the world of vernacular culture. What I meant, which was quite clear beyond your limited rendering as per above, was that although various brands of psychological counselors do not hold with a "fixed in nature" self, they nevertheless hold with a Self-- an entity to be developed, pondered over, deconstructed via anlaysis or whatever their MO is, and then reconstructed in more --what? socially suitable attributes & motives? or less dysfunctional ones? or more supportive of the individual personality ones? aso. > Identity phrased as, say, tribal or religion-affiliation, is generally > considered to be a desirable feature of selfhood, to be retained (at > all costs?--depends..). So, although intellectuals and academics might > agree with the Buddhist view of self as variable rather than uncaused, > permanent etc., the day to day ballpark view of people neither > intellectuals nor academics, nor monks, et al--is that self is a > Thing-- to be discovered, Richard: Well, I'll have to take your word for this. I don't know anyone who thinks in the way you describe, but then I don;t spend much time in ballparks with people who are neither academics, intellectuals or monks. This sounds like an interesting item for a Pew Research Foundation poll. After all, Pew reports that something like 80% of Americans believe there is such a place as hell (although only 10% believe they might go there when they die). I personally don't know anyone who believes that hell exists (except as a country presided over or illegally invaded by George W. Bush), so this shows that my perceptions of what is commonly believed are heavily conditioned by the excellent company I keep. (One thing I have always taken very seriously is the Buddhist teaching that the secret to happiness is associating with good people. That's why I stay away from ballparks filled with people who believe that tribal affiliation, religious identity and gender are permanent realities rather than impermanent, provisional and arbitrary, not to mention delusional, constructs.) JK: You have interjected a twist to this thread --beliefs-- that was not there before--and a kind of academic snobbery to boot, by warping my unimportant metaphor of 'ballpark' by misusing it. But then that's your style,isn't it. Joanna -- Richard _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.0/929 - Release Date: 7/31/2007 5:26 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.0/929 - Release Date: 7/31/2007 5:26 PM From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Wed Aug 1 17:25:48 2007 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Wed Aug 1 17:26:36 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <200708011224.15858.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708011052.47944.rhayes@unm.edu> <002201c7d466$cea522b0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708011224.15858.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <7cec5d1915bcda838b1eeb8c4abc9fe8@earthlink.net> Gang, Plainly I need to read my Tricycles (my subscription has not yet lapsed, though my attention has). But I still read buddha-l and can join the conversation here before I get around to reading Bhikkhu Thanissaro's article. Richard wrote > I think something like a Freudian or Jungian notion of ego is at work > here. I > don't think the Freudian notions is reified. It is certainly not > static and > unchangeable. As far as I can tell, the only view of self that > Buddhists > denied was any notion that depicts the self as static, uncaused, > unchanging > and permanent. But what the Buddhists denied is something that no one > in > modern times ever affirms. In other words, the Buddhist view has really > become the standard view in modern thought. Not only do I agree with this, but I'm frequently surprised by the difficulty of simply admitting this and moving on. The field of Buddhism and psychology seems fated to continually reinvent the wheel of the two traditions saying much the same thing. Where and why would we assume--as so many do--that they'd be saying something different? (I mean that question; it's not just rhetorical. Our bias to simultaneously assert the near isomorphism of Buddhism and psychology and also to assert they have radically disparate views on "the self" is strange and wondrous to me.) A quick correction. Richard wrote, > What Freud talked about was the unconscious (das > Unbew?sst), by which he meant psychologically active impulses to > action of > which a person is not fully unaware. I presume you meant to write "not fully aware," Richard, but I think I prefer the way you in fact did write the thought. When Freud called the greater part of our psyche das Unbew?sst, he did not mean it was utterly unavailable/unknown to us. Indeed, constant energy must be focused on keeping much of the unconscious unconscious. Stop the flow of that energy and the barrier begins to dissipate--usually to the good. Even given that constant energy, "the return of the repressed" is finally inevitable. So, we are, as Richard says, "not fully unaware" of the unconscious (and the conscious, too). Franz Metcalf From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Wed Aug 1 17:09:42 2007 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Wed Aug 1 17:26:38 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pure Conversation vs koan In-Reply-To: <200708011057.12140.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <46AF4DC8.1090301@cola.iges.org> <200708011057.12140.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <944bdb6cd1354f02a2a9e70113645b0d@earthlink.net> Gang, On Aug 1, 2007, at 9:57 AM, Richard Hayes wrote: > On Tuesday 31 July 2007 08:57, curt wrote: >> Wong Weng Fai wrote: >>> Yup. "Qing" is the character for "pure" and "tan" is the character >>> for >>> "conversation". I believe it is suppose to mean "a conversation pure >>> of worldly concerns." The world, dust etc. being characterized as >>> pollutants. >> >> Nice! That makes it sound even more "zenny". That wasn't what I was >> expecting "pure" to mean! > > It sounds "zenny" only because it sounds so traditionally Buddhist. I > can > easily imagine almost any Buddhist of any tradition interpreting > "pure" in > that way. I agree qing tan does sound "traditionally Buddhist." In fact, it brings to mind the verse contest of Shenxiu and Huineng in the Platform Sutra. From that perspective, such purity is the opposite of "zenny," since the orthodox Zen position is that there is no mirror/self/conversation and so no way for dust to pollute it. I'm continually fascinated by how all our thinking, all our effort to move things forward, brings us back to fundamental problems we never solve. Franz Metcalf From alex at chagchen.org Wed Aug 1 18:34:58 2007 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Wed Aug 1 18:35:20 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <200708011052.47944.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708011052.47944.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <00fc01c7d49c$f51550b0$0200000a@Tsogyal> RPH: > Does anyone have any reactions to Thanissaro Bhikkhu's claim in the Summer > 2007 issue of Tricycle? An oversimplified summary of his claim is that ego > is > an indispensable part of the psyche and that whatever else Buddhism may be > teaching, it is definitely not encouraging people to dump their egos. Is that supposed to be new? AW From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Aug 1 20:11:51 2007 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Aug 1 20:12:23 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <200708011052.47944.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708011052.47944.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <46B13D67.3020603@cola.iges.org> Richard Hayes wrote: > Does anyone have any reactions to Thanissaro Bhikkhu's claim in the Summer > 2007 issue of Tricycle? An oversimplified summary of his claim is that ego is > an indispensable part of the psyche and that whatever else Buddhism may be > teaching, it is definitely not encouraging people to dump their egos. > > Ugh - I really don't like reading Tricycle - but this actually sounds interesting. Just a few days ago I was reading C.G. Jung's introduction to the little Shambala edition of "The Spiritual Teachings of Ramana Maharshi" - where Jung noted the different approaches of Ramana and Ramakrishna. According to Jung Ramakrishna saw the "I" (which should probably be here read as "jiva"?) as something to be put in its place, rather than destroyed. Ramana, however, was far more categorical about the need to get rid of the ego altogether. Although, in fact now that I look back at it, what Jung says that Ramana says actually refers to the "I-sense". Thanissaro Bhikko should "convert" to Mahayana - that always makes things much easier (in terms of being evasive with impunity). For then you can always hide behind "upaya" and the claim that teachings such as "kill the ego" (sometimes heard uttered by Sasaki Roshi, for example) are "only medicine" for people who are "too attached" to their ego. Whereas for people who lack "a strong center" (a phrase often uttered by my grand-teacher Seung Sahn) need to "learn to stand on their two feet". - Curt From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Aug 1 22:22:12 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Aug 1 22:22:18 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <002401c7d492$aa580f40$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708011337.48729.rhayes@unm.edu> <002401c7d492$aa580f40$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <200708012222.12368.rhayes@unm.edu> On Wednesday 01 August 2007 17:21, jkirk wrote: > What I meant, which was > quite clear beyond your limited rendering as per above, was that although > various brands of psychological counselors do not hold with a "fixed in > nature" self, they nevertheless hold with a Self-- an entity to be > developed, pondered over, deconstructed via anlaysis or whatever their MO > is, and then reconstructed in more --what? socially suitable attributes & > motives? or less dysfunctional ones? or more supportive of the individual > personality ones? Thanks for the clarification. What you are now describing is precisely the sort of self that classical Buddhism also accepts. What it rejects is a self that cannot be changed or modified in any way at all. But I think that very few people nowadays believe in a fixed self in that sense. > aso. You have taken to using Japanese? > You have interjected a twist to this thread --beliefs-- that was not there > before-- It seems to me that the question of belief has been part of this discussion from the very beginning. After all, the Buddhist doctrine of non-self is meant to be a corrective to a false belief. And what I have been doing from the beginning of this discussion is trying to clarify what kinds of things various people believe about the self. > and a kind of academic snobbery to boot, by warping my unimportant > metaphor of 'ballpark' by misusing it. But then that's your style,isn't it. Making puns and being playful with words is my style. I can't help it. I come from a family of people who can't resist wordplay and making puns, no matter how bad they may be. The academic snob in me, of course, disdains bad puns. Snob that I am reputed to be, I prefer more lerned forms of humour. -- Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Aug 1 22:26:07 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Aug 1 22:26:11 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <00fc01c7d49c$f51550b0$0200000a@Tsogyal> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708011052.47944.rhayes@unm.edu> <00fc01c7d49c$f51550b0$0200000a@Tsogyal> Message-ID: <200708012226.07415.rhayes@unm.edu> On Wednesday 01 August 2007 18:34, Alex Wilding wrote: > RPH: > > Does anyone have any reactions to Thanissaro Bhikkhu's claim in the > > Summer 2007 issue of Tricycle? An oversimplified summary of his claim is > > that ego is > > an indispensable part of the psyche and that whatever else Buddhism may > > be teaching, it is definitely not encouraging people to dump their egos. > > Is that supposed to be new? I've been saying it for at least forty years, but when Thanissaro Bhikku says it in Tricycle, people are likely to pay attention. -- RPH UNM From curt at cola.iges.org Thu Aug 2 08:06:06 2007 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Thu Aug 2 08:06:33 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <7cec5d1915bcda838b1eeb8c4abc9fe8@earthlink.net> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708011052.47944.rhayes@unm.edu> <002201c7d466$cea522b0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708011224.15858.rhayes@unm.edu> <7cec5d1915bcda838b1eeb8c4abc9fe8@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <46B1E4CE.90306@cola.iges.org> Franz Metcalf wrote: > The field of Buddhism and psychology seems fated to continually > reinvent the wheel of the two traditions saying much the same thing. > Where and why would we assume--as so many do--that they'd be saying > something different? (I mean that question; it's not just rhetorical. > Our bias to simultaneously assert the near isomorphism of Buddhism and > psychology and also to assert they have radically disparate views on > "the self" is strange and wondrous to me.) > > Beautifully put. I place a large part of the blame on the publishing industry - but that's because I am a paranoid leftist and, therefore, I like to find "profit-motives" lurking behind all evils in the world. My reasoning being that the publishing industry promotes the most superficial possible coverage of all subjects, including "serious" ones, in the interests of increasing revenues. Most of the rest of blame I place on T.H. Huxley for his successful life-time campaign to make education more utilitarian - and in particular to stop wasting valuable time reading lots of old books. - Curt From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Aug 2 10:01:44 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu Aug 2 10:01:51 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <7cec5d1915bcda838b1eeb8c4abc9fe8@earthlink.net> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708011224.15858.rhayes@unm.edu> <7cec5d1915bcda838b1eeb8c4abc9fe8@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200708021001.45027.rhayes@unm.edu> On Wednesday 01 August 2007 17:25, Franz Metcalf wrote: > Plainly I need to read my Tricycles I don't think I've ever read an issue of Tricycle before the Summer 2007 issue. My lovely wife sneaks a look at it now and then (when I'm out of screaming range and she can't hear me yelling PUT THAT THING DOWN!). She snook a peek at the issue in question and made bold to tell me that there were several articles in it either by or about people we know, so in a fit of egocentricity we bought a copy. It proved to be an interesting issue, but I'm not likely to buy another issue. When my wife sneeks a peak, however, I'll yell more softly. (Sorry for all the misspellings. They're their to entertain our grammatical friend Stephen.) > The field of > Buddhism and psychology seems fated to continually reinvent the wheel > of the two traditions saying much the same thing. I know of Buddhists in whom such a claim would surely engender apoplexy. But I completely agree with you. Well, almost completely. I have a minor quibble which I'll get to directly. > Where and why would > we assume--as so many do--that they'd be saying something different? (I > mean that question; it's not just rhetorical. Our bias to > simultaneously assert the near isomorphism of Buddhism and psychology > and also to assert they have radically disparate views on "the self" is > strange and wondrous to me.) There is a very deep instinct in most of us to see ourselves as the standard by which all things are to be judged. People who identify themselves as Buddhists are not immune from this instinct. Insofar as they see themselves as Buddhist and therefore see Buddhism as the standard by which all things are to be measured, they are reluctant to admit that anything else is quite as good as Buddhism. To see modern psychology as isomorphic with Buddhism would be to admit that Buddhism is not uniquely insightful. If Buddhism had a Pope Benedict, he would be saying that psychoanalysis is "wounded". Thank God Buddhism has no popes. > A quick correction. Richard wrote, > > > What Freud talked about was the unconscious (das > > Unbew?sst), by which he meant psychologically active impulses to > > action of > > which a person is not fully unaware. > > I presume you meant to write "not fully aware," Richard Yes. No doubt this was a Freudian slip. (My imaginary sister used to wear a Freudian slip, which drove me wild.) > When Freud called the > greater part of our psyche das Unbew?sst, he did not mean it was > utterly unavailable/unknown to us. Indeed, constant energy must be > focused on keeping much of the unconscious unconscious. Stop the flow > of that energy and the barrier begins to dissipate--usually to the > good. Even given that constant energy, "the return of the repressed" is > finally inevitable. So, we are, as Richard says, "not fully unaware" of > the unconscious (and the conscious, too). While I agree with most of this, I do have one quibble. As I understand Freud and Jung, they both claimed that there are some things that will always remain unbew?sst. That is, there are some things about our motivations that we will never understand, no matter what. Some things that are unknown will eventually come to light, and the task of analysis is to bring those things to light that can come into the light. There was a huge debate on this topic on buddha-l in 1997 between me and a Canadian bhikkhu named Punnadhammo. It started when I said something about the Buddha's shadow (in the sense of unconscious). The Canadian bhikkhu said there was nothing about the Buddha's psyche that he (the Buddha) didn't fully understand. I challenged him on this by resorting to my favourite epistemologicial query: How do you know? He said his claim was true by definition. The word sambuddha just means fully awakened, he said, so the Buddha couldn't have been called a sambuddha if he had an unconscious. Zooks! Defeated by literalist etymology! (A small part of the debate can be found on my website: http://dayamati.home.comcast.net/therapy.html and other exchanges with him are found at http://dayamati.home.comcast.net/nirvana.html ) Speaking of all this sort of thing, there is going to be yet another conference on Buddhism and psychotherapy in New York on October 13. (For more information see http://www.enlighteningrelationships.org/ .) My task at the conference is to explain the abhidharma notion of karma in ten minutes. (An interesting sidelight is that when these folks asked me for a brief autobiographical blurb to put on their website, I mentioned that I am both a Quaker and a Buddhist. The Quaker half of my self-described identity was neatly edited out. I assume this error was another example of either a Freudian slip or a reluctance on the part of the organizers to acknowledge that one can really be a Buddhist if one sees the possibility that there may be some truth in other paths.) -- Richard From jkirk at spro.net Thu Aug 2 14:47:05 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu Aug 2 14:47:05 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <200708012222.12368.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><200708011337.48729.rhayes@unm.edu><002401c7d492$aa580f40$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708012222.12368.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <001601c7d546$492ab0b0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> > aso. You have taken to using Japanese? ======= Aso signifies "and so on"... JK No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 2:22 PM From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Aug 2 15:23:41 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu Aug 2 15:23:48 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <001601c7d546$492ab0b0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708012222.12368.rhayes@unm.edu> <001601c7d546$492ab0b0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <200708021523.42255.rhayes@unm.edu> On Thursday 02 August 2007 14:47, jkirk wrote: > Aso signifies "and so on"... Aso desu ka? I usually spell that "etc" when I use it at all. We all have ferocious high school teachers in our pasts, petty-minded insecure martinets who foisted taboos off onto us that we spend our entire lives trying not to break. One of my high school English teachers insisted that using the expressions "et cetera" and "and so on" is a form of mental laziness that should, like the passive voice and unnecessary commas, be avoided at all costs by careful industrious responsible citizens. Although I disagree with him on this point, the taboo is still with me. It makes me want to kill him and so on, but the bastard died before I had the opportunity, so now I just curse him under my breath etc. From jkirk at spro.net Thu Aug 2 16:05:56 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu Aug 2 16:05:56 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <200708021523.42255.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><200708012222.12368.rhayes@unm.edu><001601c7d546$492ab0b0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708021523.42255.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <004201c7d551$4d14bb20$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> 'Etc.' and 'aso' and a few other such abbreviations are used online, as it seems to me, to save time and space, energy even. I too would not think of using them in writing for publication (although I might have slipped here and there :) Anyway, arigato gosaemasu! JK -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 3:24 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK,Indian & Buddhist theories of self On Thursday 02 August 2007 14:47, jkirk wrote: > Aso signifies "and so on"... Aso desu ka? I usually spell that "etc" when I use it at all. We all have ferocious high school teachers in our pasts, petty-minded insecure martinets who foisted taboos off onto us that we spend our entire lives trying not to break. One of my high school English teachers insisted that using the expressions "et cetera" and "and so on" is a form of mental laziness that should, like the passive voice and unnecessary commas, be avoided at all costs by careful industrious responsible citizens. Although I disagree with him on this point, the taboo is still with me. It makes me want to kill him and so on, but the bastard died before I had the opportunity, so now I just curse him under my breath etc. _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 2:22 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 2:22 PM From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Thu Aug 2 16:58:32 2007 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu Aug 2 16:53:32 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><200708012222.12368.rhayes@unm.edu><001601c7d546$492ab0b0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><200708021523.42255.rhayes@unm.edu> <004201c7d551$4d14bb20$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <00b101c7d558$a69ec5d0$fb437257@zen> Joanna wrote: > Anyway, arigato gosaemasu! At least Joanna confines her misspellings to Japanese. But the literal translation of such courteous social lubricants from other languages is often fascinating. I wonder if anybody has made study of the various equivalents of "please", "thank-you", "sorry" and so forth. Stephen Hodge From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Aug 2 17:30:44 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Thu Aug 2 17:30:50 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <00b101c7d558$a69ec5d0$fb437257@zen> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <004201c7d551$4d14bb20$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <00b101c7d558$a69ec5d0$fb437257@zen> Message-ID: <200708021730.44924.rhayes@unm.edu> On Thursday 02 August 2007 16:58, Stephen Hodge wrote: > At least Joanna confines her misspellings to Japanese. But the literal > translation of such courteous social lubricants from other languages is > often fascinating. I wonder if anybody has made study of the various > equivalents of "please", "thank-you", "sorry" and so forth. Given the history of the earth, I'd be surprised if this study has not yet been carried out. Like you, I'd love to see the results. I remember asking a Japanese person what "arigatou" actually means. He said "It doesn't mean anything. It's just what you say when someone gives you something." Tai Unno, on the other hand, once explained the meaning of "arigatou" to me in several paragraphs. His lengthy explanation was a bit like that of those who insist that "namaste" means "the God in me salutes the God in you." Along the same lines, I once asked a Navajo what "Y?'?t'??h" literally means. She looked at me as if I were a complete idiot and said "It's just what you say when you greet someone. It doesn't mean anything." I challenged her on that and insisted it MUST mean something. She looked me straight in the eye (an unusual gesture for a Navajo) and said "So what does 'Hello' mean?" I felt obliged to change the subject. So long, Richard (now what the hell does THAT mean?) From jkirk at spro.net Thu Aug 2 19:45:32 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu Aug 2 19:45:32 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <00b101c7d558$a69ec5d0$fb437257@zen> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><200708012222.12368.rhayes@unm.edu><001601c7d546$492ab0b0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><200708021523.42255.rhayes@unm.edu><004201c7d551$4d14bb20$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <00b101c7d558$a69ec5d0$fb437257@zen> Message-ID: <004101c7d56f$fa8f9b30$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Hi Stephen Please send the correct spelling!! Desperately orthographical Joanna ================================= Joanna wrote: > Anyway, arigato gosaemasu! At least Joanna confines her misspellings to Japanese. But the literal translation of such courteous social lubricants from other languages is often fascinating. I wonder if anybody has made study of the various equivalents of "please", "thank-you", "sorry" and so forth. Stephen Hodge _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 2:22 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 2:22 PM From jkirk at spro.net Thu Aug 2 19:49:20 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu Aug 2 19:49:21 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <200708021730.44924.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><004201c7d551$4d14bb20$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><00b101c7d558$a69ec5d0$fb437257@zen> <200708021730.44924.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <004201c7d570$830980c0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Along the same lines, I once asked a Navajo what "Y?'?t'??h" literally means. She looked at me as if I were a complete idiot and said "It's just what you say when you greet someone. It doesn't mean anything." I challenged her on that and insisted it MUST mean something. She looked me straight in the eye (an unusual gesture for a Navajo) and said "So what does 'Hello' mean?" I felt obliged to change the subject. So long, Richard (now what the hell does THAT mean?) ============== Doesn't hello mean "hail-O [you friend, kinsman, aso] ?? Anybody got the dictionary of American slang? I long for a copy but they are very costly. Joanna No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 2:22 PM From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Thu Aug 2 20:13:12 2007 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu Aug 2 20:08:11 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><200708012222.12368.rhayes@unm.edu><001601c7d546$492ab0b0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><200708021523.42255.rhayes@unm.edu><004201c7d551$4d14bb20$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><00b101c7d558$a69ec5d0$fb437257@zen> <004101c7d56f$fa8f9b30$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <00ce01c7d573$d89b4c00$fb437257@zen> Joanna asked: > Hi Stephen > Please send the correct spelling!! > > Desperately orthographical Joanna Tut, tut Joanna ! You should know it's spelt "disparately" ? (Note that "spelt" is correct for English English). But the Japanese you wanted is "arigat? gozaimasu". It is also surprising to note that several forms of English now spoken in these parts are completely lacking in the words "please" and "thank-you", although a vestigial equivalent of "please" is often heard in the form of "gimme". Has the same phenomena arisen over there ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Thu Aug 2 20:22:50 2007 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu Aug 2 20:17:48 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><004201c7d551$4d14bb20$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><00b101c7d558$a69ec5d0$fb437257@zen><200708021730.44924.rhayes@unm.edu> <004201c7d570$830980c0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <00d501c7d575$30f60d30$fb437257@zen> Joanna wrote: > Doesn't hello mean "hail-O [you friend, kinsman, aso] ?? > Anybody got the dictionary of American slang? I long for a copy but they > are > very costly. Hello -> Holla from French Ho l? = Hey, there ! PS: Japanese "aa s?" actually means something like a generally non-commital "I see", "Oh really". Don't you remember that Emperor Hirohito used to be called "Emperor Aa s?" during the Pacific War years, because of his verbal tic of murmuring that all the time ? FYI "etcetera" in Japanese is "nado". Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From jkirk at spro.net Thu Aug 2 20:29:57 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu Aug 2 20:29:58 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <00ce01c7d573$d89b4c00$fb437257@zen> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><200708012222.12368.rhayes@unm.edu><001601c7d546$492ab0b0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><200708021523.42255.rhayes@unm.edu><004201c7d551$4d14bb20$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><00b101c7d558$a69ec5d0$fb437257@zen><004101c7d56f$fa8f9b30$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <00ce01c7d573$d89b4c00$fb437257@zen> Message-ID: <004901c7d576$2f46ba10$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Joanna asked: > Hi Stephen > Please send the correct spelling!! > > Desperately orthographical Joanna >>Tut, tut Joanna ! You should know it's spelt "disparately" ? (Note that "spelt" is correct for English English). But the Japanese you wanted is "arigat? gozaimasu". JK--Well--I almost got it right!!! (I do not have diacritics on my PC) Is "tut tut" English English? What does that mean :) ? >>It is also surprising to note that several forms of English now spoken in these parts are completely lacking in the words "please" and "thank-you", although a vestigial equivalent of "please" is often heard in the form of "gimme". Has the same phenomena arisen over there ? JK--ah yes--hear one still hears a lot of "Thank you", not so many "Please," but on radio programs when a guest is told "thank you," the common reply these days that really grates, is "My pleasure," Or even worse: "Always a pleasure." [Aaaargh] What ever happened to "You're welcome?" Speaking of "spelt," it's also a kind of grain that is getting faddish among organic eaters this side of the kala pani. Do they eat it in England? Joanna Best wishes, Stephen Hodge No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 2:22 PM From jkirk at spro.net Thu Aug 2 20:34:24 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu Aug 2 20:34:24 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <00d501c7d575$30f60d30$fb437257@zen> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><004201c7d551$4d14bb20$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><00b101c7d558$a69ec5d0$fb437257@zen><200708021730.44924.rhayes@unm.edu><004201c7d570$830980c0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <00d501c7d575$30f60d30$fb437257@zen> Message-ID: <004a01c7d576$ce6485a0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Hmmmm--think from now on I shall stop writing aso and begin writing nado. Aso is, as you point out, too embarrassingly close to aa so. The beauty of it is that nobody will know what I've written except Stephen and maybe a few other Japanese speakers on the list. Heh heh. Joanna ------------- PS: Japanese "aa s?" actually means something like a generally non-commital "I see", "Oh really". Don't you remember that Emperor Hirohito used to be called "Emperor Aa s?" during the Pacific War years, because of his verbal tic of murmuring that all the time ? FYI "etcetera" in Japanese is "nado". Best wishes, Stephen Hodge _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 2:22 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 2:22 PM From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Thu Aug 2 20:59:31 2007 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu Aug 2 20:54:31 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><004201c7d551$4d14bb20$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><00b101c7d558$a69ec5d0$fb437257@zen> <200708021730.44924.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <00f401c7d57a$50b67650$fb437257@zen> Richard Hayes wrote: > Richard (now what the hell does THAT mean?) How small your ego must be -- you mean you've never looked it up ? It's comes from Old German and means "brave one", "powerful ruler". Now let's see your ego inflate. It's almost as good as my name -- "victor, victorious", "crowned one". Wouldn't it be great if our popular names were as transparent in meaning as those in some other languages ! Best wishes, Stephen Hodge (Victorious Wrathful-Spear) From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 20:55:23 2007 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Thu Aug 2 20:55:27 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self Message-ID: <426400.22062.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Richard Hayes wrote: "Does anyone have any reactions to Thanissaro Bhikkhu's claim in the Summer 2007 issue of Tricycle? An oversimplified summary of his claim is that ego is an indispensable part of the psyche and that whatever else Buddhism may be teaching, it is definitely not encouraging people to dump their egos." Note: When I say Self, I mean Ego right now. (1) Back in 1984, Buddhist psychotherapist Jack Engler coined the well-known phrase "you have to be somebody before you can be nobody." Nineteen years later, he modified his position by claiming that the two processes don't have to happen sequentially, but may go hand in hand, providing feedback to each other. Engler has also said that in the West there seems to be a conflation between the concept of a psychologically differentiated self and an ontological notion of self or "the feeling or belief that there is an inherent, ontological core at the center of our experience that is separate, substantial, enduring, self-identical" (J. Saffran, ed., *Psychoanalysis and Buddhism*, Wisdom, 2003, p. 52). (2) It may well be that in the Buddha's time it was far easier to have a strong sense of psychological self than it is today for us in the West. After all, he taught the Brahma-Viharas in a certain order: Send metta to oneself, then to a benefactor, then to a neutral person, then to a difficult person. In other words, start with what's *easy*, then proceed to the most difficult. But what was easy in the Buddha's time and place might not be easy now, at least for us in the West. As we commented on in several July posts (see the thread "The Dalai Lama on self-loathing"), we Westerners seem to have problems with self-esteem. Arinna Weisman, a Western teacher of Buddhist meditation, admitted in one of her books how hard it was for her to start metta practice by sending good wishes to herself alone. She had to include herself as part of a collective unit in her metta practice for a long time before feeling worthy enough to receive metta for herself. This seems to be more common among Westerners than we think. (3) Most psychotherapists in the West accept the fact of a socially-constructed sense of Self over time. Most Western social psychologists describe the Self is not a closed, isolated system, but the ongoing "result" of its potential and its relationships with its own contents (however conditioned and unsubstantial) and with the environment (however conditioned and unsubstantial). (4) If anybody has been guilty of reifying the self or the ego in the West?especially in the last two decades?I would say it has been some Western teachers of Buddhism who have conflated the concepts of a healthy psychological self with an ontological self. These teachers have engaged in non-stop vilification of their conflated concept of "Ego." In vilifying Ego, they have elevated it to the status of Big Enemy to be attacked, despised and ashamed of. A better reification than that couldn't be concocted. Katherine Masis ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From srhodes at boulder.net Thu Aug 2 20:56:55 2007 From: srhodes at boulder.net (Steven Rhodes) Date: Thu Aug 2 20:57:25 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <00f401c7d57a$50b67650$fb437257@zen> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><004201c7d551$4d14bb20$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><00b101c7d558$a69ec5d0$fb437257@zen> <200708021730.44924.rhayes@unm.edu> <00f401c7d57a$50b67650$fb437257@zen> Message-ID: <46B29977.5080402@boulder.net> Yes, and he was also the first martyr. Are you standing in line? Steve Stephen Hodge wrote: > Richard Hayes wrote: > >> Richard (now what the hell does THAT mean?) > > How small your ego must be -- you mean you've never looked it up ? > It's comes from Old German and means "brave one", "powerful ruler". > Now let's see your ego inflate. It's almost as good as my name -- > "victor, victorious", "crowned one". > Wouldn't it be great if our popular names were as transparent in > meaning as those in some other languages ! > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge > (Victorious Wrathful-Spear) > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From slachs at worldnet.att.net Thu Aug 2 21:31:32 2007 From: slachs at worldnet.att.net (Stuart Lachs) Date: Thu Aug 2 21:31:46 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><200708011337.48729.rhayes@unm.edu><002401c7d492$aa580f40$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><200708012222.12368.rhayes@unm.edu> <001601c7d546$492ab0b0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <000d01c7d57e$d05addc0$6901a8c0@Stuki> ----- Original Message ----- From: "jkirk" To: "'Buddhist discussion forum'" Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 4:47 PM Subject: RE: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK,Indian & Buddhist theories of self > > >> aso. > > You have taken to using Japanese? > ======= > Aso signifies "and so on"... > JK > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 > 2:22 PM > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From stroble at hawaii.edu Thu Aug 2 23:07:40 2007 From: stroble at hawaii.edu (James A. Stroble) Date: Thu Aug 2 23:07:37 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <004a01c7d576$ce6485a0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <00d501c7d575$30f60d30$fb437257@zen> <004a01c7d576$ce6485a0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <200708021907.40588.stroble@hawaii.edu> On Thursday 02 August 2007 16:34, jkirk wrote: > Hmmmm--think from now on I shall stop writing aso and begin writing nado. > Aso is, as you point out, too embarrassingly close to aa so. > The beauty of it is that nobody will know what I've written except Stephen > and maybe a few other Japanese speakers on the list. > Heh heh. > Joanna But to be really effective you need to reduplicate in Japanese, so say "nado-nado". And you can add "zen-zen" to your repetoire, which literally means "entirely, completely" and so really means "it's nothing". Ah, I love the smell of comparative linguistics in the evening! -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ; ~ ) J a m e s ( A n d y ) S t r o b l e H o n o l u l u , H I h t t p : / / w w w 2 . h a w a i i . e d u / ~ s t r o b l e / :The right way to seize a philosopher. Crates, is by the ears: persuade me then and drag me off by them; but if you use violence, my body will be with you, but my mind with Stilpo." Zeno of Citium, Diogenes Laertius, VII:24 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 From alex at chagchen.org Thu Aug 2 23:52:11 2007 From: alex at chagchen.org (Alex Wilding) Date: Thu Aug 2 23:52:30 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <00d501c7d575$30f60d30$fb437257@zen> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><004201c7d551$4d14bb20$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><00b101c7d558$a69ec5d0$fb437257@zen><200708021730.44924.rhayes@unm.edu><004201c7d570$830980c0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <00d501c7d575$30f60d30$fb437257@zen> Message-ID: <001401c7d592$70649550$0200000a@Tsogyal> Stephen explained: > Hello -> Holla from French Ho l? = Hey, there ! The OED, however, also suggests a connection with "Hallo" from OHG. hal?, hol?, emphatic imperative of hal?n, hol?n to fetch, used esp. in hailing a ferryman. Faith-oriented Buddhists may therefore find it a useful preliminary call before the mantra from the Heart Sutra. AW From jkirk at spro.net Fri Aug 3 08:53:14 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Aug 3 08:53:14 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <426400.22062.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <426400.22062.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002501c7d5de$04f94710$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> (4) If anybody has been guilty of reifying the self or the ego in the West?especially in the last two decades?I would say it has been some Western teachers of Buddhism who have conflated the concepts of a healthy psychological self with an ontological self. These teachers have engaged in non-stop vilification of their conflated concept of "Ego." In vilifying Ego, they have elevated it to the status of Big Enemy to be attacked, despised and ashamed of. A better reification than that couldn't be concocted. Katherine Masis ===================== This useless viewpoint seems to have especially infected Tibetan Buddhist teachers, of various sorts--but not the Dalai Lama, far as I can tell. I've run into quite a few US disciples of such teachers, one of whom asked me once "How can I get rid of my ego?" (His teacher by the way is in India but he lives here.) This idea was being purveyed also by the Karma Kagyu group I once met with back in upstate NY some years ago, and was being assiduously taught by the lay person who had become the teacher's pet. I suspect they may have changed their tune since a lot of criticism of this useless idea, of the kind cited in this list thread, has surfaced since that time. Joanna K. ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 2:22 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 2:22 PM From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Fri Aug 3 08:57:57 2007 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Wong Weng Fai) Date: Fri Aug 3 08:58:06 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Permit required for reincarnation Message-ID: China tells Tibet's living Buddhas to apply for reincarnation http://sg.news.yahoo.com/afp/20070803/tts-china-tibet-religion-incarnation-a73cdd6.html AFP - Friday, August 3BEIJING (AFP) - - Tibetan living Buddhas are no longer allowed to be reincarnated without permission from the atheist Chinese government, state media reported Friday. The new rules are "an important move to institutionalise the management of reincarnation of living Buddhas," the Xinhua news agency said. According to the regulations, which take effect on September 1, all reincarnation applications must be submitted to religious affairs officials for approval, Xinhua said. China is ruled by the Communist Party, which, despite being officially atheist, maintains strict controls over Tibetan Buddhism and all other religions. Living Buddhas are an important element in Tibetan Buddhism, forming a clergy of influential religious figures who are believed to be continuously reincarnated to take up their positions anew. Often there is more than one candidate competing to be recognised as the actual reincarnation, and the authority to decide who is the true claimant carries significant power. This is especially true in the case of the Panchen Lama, the second-most influential figure in Tibetan Buddhism behind the Dalai Lama. Chinese authorities detained the Dalai Lama's choice as the Panchen Lama in 1995 when the boy was six years old, and he has not been seen in public since. The Chinese government's choice as the Panchen Lama has meanwhile been paraded around the country in recent years to promote China's rule over his homeland. China sent troops in to "liberate" Tibet in 1951. The Dalai Lama later fled to India in 1959 after a failed uprising and established a government-in-exile in Dharamsala. From jkirk at spro.net Fri Aug 3 09:39:38 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Aug 3 09:39:38 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Permit required for reincarnation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003801c7d5e4$80c93c00$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Looks like they are setting the stage for who gets to be the next Dalai Lama. That could be one big fight. However, as long as the committee of lamas outside China, searching for the next one, finds someone outside Tibet, they have a chance of making the choice stick. Although he's in exile today, along with thousands of his followers, the DL has tons more clout with international media and institutions than does the highest lama the Chinese have endorsed, the Panchen Lama. Thus, a new DL outside China will have a good opportunity to upstage the Chinese rulers. Whether he will emerge as the intellectual and charismatic equal of HHDL today is, of course, a question. Joanna ========================== China tells Tibet's living Buddhas to apply for reincarnation http://sg.news.yahoo.com/afp/20070803/tts-china-tibet-religion-incarnation-a 73cdd6.html No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 2:22 PM From srhodes at boulder.net Fri Aug 3 09:42:31 2007 From: srhodes at boulder.net (Steven Rhodes) Date: Fri Aug 3 09:43:01 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Permit required for reincarnation In-Reply-To: <003801c7d5e4$80c93c00$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> References: <003801c7d5e4$80c93c00$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <46B34CE7.3050105@boulder.net> I believe that HHDL has already said that he will not reincarnate in Tibet. How can the Chinese government overcome that? Steve jkirk wrote: > > Looks like they are setting the stage for who gets to be the next Dalai > Lama. That could be one big fight. > However, as long as the committee of lamas outside China, searching for the > next one, finds someone outside Tibet, they have a chance of making the > choice stick. Although he's in exile today, along with thousands of his > followers, the DL has tons more clout with international media and > institutions than does the highest lama the Chinese have endorsed, the > Panchen Lama. Thus, a new DL outside China will have a good opportunity to > upstage the Chinese rulers. > Whether he will emerge as the intellectual and charismatic equal of HHDL > today is, of course, a question. > Joanna > ========================== > > > China tells Tibet's living Buddhas to apply for reincarnation > > http://sg.news.yahoo.com/afp/20070803/tts-china-tibet-religion-incarnation-a > 73cdd6.html > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 > 2:22 PM > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Aug 3 10:44:06 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri Aug 3 10:44:12 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <00ce01c7d573$d89b4c00$fb437257@zen> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <004101c7d56f$fa8f9b30$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <00ce01c7d573$d89b4c00$fb437257@zen> Message-ID: <200708031044.06830.rhayes@unm.edu> On Thursday 02 August 2007 20:13, Stephen Hodge wrote: > It is also surprising to note that several forms of English now spoken in > these parts are completely lacking in the words "please" and "thank-you", > although a vestigial equivalent of "please" is often heard in the form of > "gimme". Has the same phenomena arisen over there ? North America is a big continent (although global warming should bring it down to a more medest size). Customs vary widely. In New Mexico, people tend to be quite polite, still saying "sir" and "ma'am" much of the time. Their are expressions used here that are less common elswhere in the United States. When people invite one to do something such as taking a seat, they often say "Go ahead and sit down." Following the principle that the more syllables a phrase has, the more honourific it is, "Go ahead and..." is more honourific than "Please." In place of "Thank you," it's common in these parts to say "I appreciate it." (or, if one is a cowboy, "preciate it"), which again has more syllables. In lieu of "you're welcome" people around here usually say "You bet." I have no idea what that is supposed to mean, but it was in vogue long before the casinos popped up on all the Indian reservations. I am waiting to see whether any local ways of speaking find their way into Buddhist liturgy. In the few Christian churches I've been to in Albuquerque, it is customary to sing hymns or chant the doxology in both English and Spanish. The Quakers are slient in both languages. This pleasant bilingual custom has not yet taken root among any of the Buddhist outfits I have seen. Maybe in Las Cruces or Santa Fe the Buddhists go for refuge in Spanish, but not in Albuquerque. So long, Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Aug 3 10:46:06 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri Aug 3 10:46:10 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <004901c7d576$2f46ba10$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <00ce01c7d573$d89b4c00$fb437257@zen> <004901c7d576$2f46ba10$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <200708031046.06177.rhayes@unm.edu> On Thursday 02 August 2007 20:29, jkirk wrote: > Is "tut tut" English English? What does that mean :) ? It's Egyptian English, n'est-ce pas? From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Aug 3 10:49:53 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri Aug 3 10:49:58 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <00f401c7d57a$50b67650$fb437257@zen> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708021730.44924.rhayes@unm.edu> <00f401c7d57a$50b67650$fb437257@zen> Message-ID: <200708031049.53272.rhayes@unm.edu> On Thursday 02 August 2007 20:59, Stephen Hodge wrote: > Wouldn't it be great if our popular names were as transparent in meaning as > those in some other languages ! In some ways I'd rather be called Richard than something that would describe me better, like Peabrain or Bigbelly. -- Hardyking Peabrain Hedgedweller From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Aug 3 10:59:21 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri Aug 3 10:59:26 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <001401c7d592$70649550$0200000a@Tsogyal> References: <003401c7d44c$c1f26600$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <00d501c7d575$30f60d30$fb437257@zen> <001401c7d592$70649550$0200000a@Tsogyal> Message-ID: <200708031059.22050.rhayes@unm.edu> On Thursday 02 August 2007 23:52, Alex Wilding wrote: > The OED, however, also suggests a connection with "Hallo" from OHG. hal?, > hol?, emphatic imperative of hal?n, hol?n to fetch, used esp. in hailing a > ferryman. Buddha-l is such an education place, eh? (Well, it's not really a place at all, but indulge me.) I have known for a long time that the standard southwestern United States greeting, "Howdy", is short for "How do you do." So until just now I had assumed that "Hello" was just a short form of "How the hell are you?" > Faith-oriented Buddhists may therefore find it a useful preliminary call > before the mantra from the Heart Sutra. Good idea. Since the "gate gate" part is the vocative singular feminine of gataa (gone), it could be translated as "goodbye". So the Heart Sutra mantra could be abbreviated to "Hello. Goodbye." It has always seemed to me that instead of saying "goodbye" (short for "God be with you"), really sincere Buddhists should say buddhabye. adios (er, abudo), Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Aug 3 11:07:11 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri Aug 3 11:07:16 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Permit required for reincarnation In-Reply-To: <46B34CE7.3050105@boulder.net> References: <003801c7d5e4$80c93c00$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <46B34CE7.3050105@boulder.net> Message-ID: <200708031107.11966.rhayes@unm.edu> On Friday 03 August 2007 09:42, Steven Rhodes wrote: > I believe that HHDL has already said that he will not reincarnate in > Tibet. I heard HHDL say in Montreal that he might not come back at all. He said he thought the institution of reincarnate lamas had about run its course. Maybe he'll do what Bertrand Russell did. Russell, it is well known, spent his life ridiculing belief in an afterlife. About a year after he died, a spiritual medium announced to the world that Russell had a message to deliver the world through her. The message was "I was wrong." I'm quite confident that if HHDL announced unambiguously that he was never coming back, the Chinese would nevertheless find his reincarnation, and his first public announcement would be "I changed my mind." -- Richard From jkirk at spro.net Fri Aug 3 11:30:16 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Aug 3 11:30:16 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Permit required for reincarnation In-Reply-To: <46B34CE7.3050105@boulder.net> References: <003801c7d5e4$80c93c00$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <46B34CE7.3050105@boulder.net> Message-ID: <000901c7d5f3$f56ab9d0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Ha! Great news! =============== I believe that HHDL has already said that he will not reincarnate in Tibet. How can the Chinese government overcome that? Steve No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 2:22 PM From srhodes at boulder.net Fri Aug 3 11:45:30 2007 From: srhodes at boulder.net (Steven Rhodes) Date: Fri Aug 3 11:46:02 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Permit required for reincarnation In-Reply-To: <000901c7d5f3$f56ab9d0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> References: <003801c7d5e4$80c93c00$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <46B34CE7.3050105@boulder.net> <000901c7d5f3$f56ab9d0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <46B369BA.2010801@boulder.net> Well, Richard just gave the answer: "I changed my mind." Steve jkirk wrote: > Ha! Great news! > =============== > > > I believe that HHDL has already said that he will not reincarnate in Tibet. > How can the Chinese government overcome that? > > Steve > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 > 2:22 PM > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > From jkirk at spro.net Fri Aug 3 11:47:42 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Fri Aug 3 11:47:40 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Permit required for reincarnation In-Reply-To: <200708031107.11966.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <003801c7d5e4$80c93c00$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><46B34CE7.3050105@boulder.net> <200708031107.11966.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <001501c7d5f6$64824ac0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> On Friday 03 August 2007 09:42, Steven Rhodes wrote: > I believe that HHDL has already said that he will not reincarnate in > Tibet. I heard HHDL say in Montreal that he might not come back at all. He said he thought the institution of reincarnate lamas had about run its course. Maybe he'll do what Bertrand Russell did. Russell, it is well known, spent his life ridiculing belief in an afterlife. About a year after he died, a spiritual medium announced to the world that Russell had a message to deliver the world through her. The message was "I was wrong." I'm quite confident that if HHDL announced unambiguously that he was never coming back, the Chinese would nevertheless find his reincarnation, and his first public announcement would be "I changed my mind." -- Richard =============== Good grief--let's hope that it's not the Chinese that find his reincarnation in the first place. Maybe the lama search committee will ignore what the DL says about not reincarnating. They could say, "The oracle told us that he changed his mind," as they get busy finding the new one. Buddhisticallly speaking, HHDL is inspiring in his attempt to declare this custom dead, it being a political invention in the first place, but also, in order for the exile-Tibetans to have a political center and spokesperson with international clout, finding a new one seems to be a necessity. However, some exiled Tibetans--the ones that think the DL should invade China or do something more aggressive about the Chinese takeover (false hope), might not agree with this idea at all. Joanna No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 2:22 PM From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Aug 3 12:29:57 2007 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Fri Aug 3 12:30:27 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: Three year Research Associate, UK, Indian & Buddhist theories of self In-Reply-To: <426400.22062.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <426400.22062.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46B37425.1080202@cola.iges.org> I think it is worth emphasizing that in addition to modern "psychological" theories, there is a much older, more deeply embedded conception of self in the western psyche. It is the "self" of the Delphic maxim "gnothi seauton", which was adopted by Socrates and became central to all of Greek philosophy as we know it. This self has several important characteristics: (1) First and foremost it is uniquely capable of self-awareness. Other mental faculties/activities are not. (2) It is the agent of both reason and volition (which seems odd to me, because in my experience the two almost never go together!) (3) It is the essence of who we are. (3a) As a corrolary to the above "what we are" (our essence) is NOT anything else - such as the physical body. (4) It is Divine in it's origin - and it is the link between humans and the Divine. (5) For Platonists, the self is non-corporeal and capable of DIRECT self awareness, whereas for Stoics and Epicureans the self is material and probably not truly capable of absolutely direct self-awareness. This seems to parallel a similar disagreement with Tsongkhapa and Mipham. All of these characteristics (except for the last) are spelled out by Epictetus in the opening paragraphs of his Discourses. They are also central to Socrates' famous conversation with Alcibiades in the dialog of that name. Often it is the ideas that we don't know about rattling around in our heads that have the biggest and most pervasive influences - precisely because we are unaware of those influences. Which, of course, is the entire freaking point of "gnothi seauton"! - Curt From jkirk at spro.net Sat Aug 4 11:27:52 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sat Aug 4 11:27:51 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] FW: H-ASIA: TRAVEL ALERT --new electronics carry-ons policy of TSA Message-ID: <006201c7d6bc$c9ea4e00$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> X-posted--FYI anyone planning to fly abroad. Joanna ============================================ H-ASIA August 4, 2007 The following is a copyrighted extract from the Seattle Times, Aug 3, 2007 "Starting Saturday, travelers will be required to remove large electronic items from carry-on bags and present them for inspection at airport security checkpoints. "The focus is on large electronic equipment," not portable DVD players, cell phones or MP3 players, said Jennifer Peppin, the Transportation Security Administration's spokeswoman in Seattle. Affected are consoles for Xbox and PlayStation video games, large video cameras and large living-room style DVD players, she said. "Obviously these types of devices can resemble components that could be used in explosives. Previously, only laptops had to be removed from carry-ons, and placed into bins at the checkpoints, along with shoes, jackets and any liquids and gels. All electronic items can still be taken aboard the aircraft in carry-on luggage. Any items that travelers are asked to remove for inspection can be repacked inside security. The requirement does not affect items carried in checked luggage. Signs announcing the changes are being posted at checkpoints throughout Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, said spokesman Perry Cooper. In other changes effective Saturday, travelers will be allowed to carry-on disposable butane lighters, such as Bics, and refillable lighters, like Zippos, onto planes, but touch-style lighters will still be banned. Mothers -or anyone -wanting to bring more than 3 ounces of breast milk onto an airplane can now do so. The liquid will still have to be declared to screeners." So, you still can't take on a bottle of water, but your Bic lighter is now admissable--another interesting turn in the Tao of the TSA. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.4/936 - Release Date: 8/4/2007 2:42 PM From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 20:54:15 2007 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Sat Aug 4 20:54:18 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Theories of the self Message-ID: <65791.93136.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Curt wrote: "I think it is worth emphasizing that in addition to modern 'psychological' theories, there is a much older, more deeply embedded conception of self in the western psyche. It is the 'self' of the Delphic maxim 'gnothi seauton', which was adopted by Socrates and became central to all of Greek philosophy as we know it." Socrates may have adopted the maxim, but he also changed it. The Delphic maxim "gnothi seauton" (know thyself) was more or less telling oracle-seekers to be sure of exactly what they wanted to ask; i.e., to examine themselves carefully so they wouldn?t ask too many questions of the oracle. For Socrates, "know thyself" didn?t imply a relationship between humans and gods, but a relationship with himself. In this sense, he was breaking with the past. And yes, we could say that with Socrates the notion of "self" gained a perceived essence and solidity it perhaps hadn?t had before, or at least a perceived essence and solidity that hadn?t been articulated before. Katherine Masis ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From curt at cola.iges.org Sun Aug 5 10:28:44 2007 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Sun Aug 5 10:29:18 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Theories of the self In-Reply-To: <65791.93136.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <65791.93136.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46B5FABC.6040607@cola.iges.org> Katherine Masis wrote: > Socrates may have adopted the maxim, but he also > changed it. The Delphic maxim "gnothi seauton" (know > thyself) was more or less telling oracle-seekers to be > sure of exactly what they wanted to ask; i.e., to > examine themselves carefully so they wouldn?t ask too > many questions of the oracle. For Socrates, "know > thyself" didn?t imply a relationship between humans > and gods, but a relationship with himself. In this > sense, he was breaking with the past. And yes, we > could say that with Socrates the notion of "self" > gained a perceived essence and solidity it perhaps > hadn?t had before, or at least a perceived essence and > solidity that hadn?t been articulated before. > > > I am wondering what kind of basis you have for saying this? Socrates, for example, encourages Meno [76c] to receive initiation in the Eleusinian Mysteries (not to be confused, of course, with Apollo's cult) in order to better undertand his (Socrates') ideas concerning the soul In the Alcibiades Socrates states clearly "harken, therefore, to the advice I give you in agreement with the Delphic inscription, Know Thyself." [124a-b] Socrates also informs Alcibiades that "a God" has instructed him (Socrates) to speak to Alcibiades about this matter. I would go so far as to say that there is no evidence that Soctates/Plato "changed" the meaning of "gnothi seauton", or that their teachings concerning the soul and self-knowledge represented a "break with the past". - Curt From james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu Sun Aug 5 12:34:28 2007 From: james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu (Blumenthal, James) Date: Sun Aug 5 12:34:35 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Theories of the self References: <65791.93136.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E045B82A5@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> Curt wrote: "I think it is worth emphasizing that in addition to modern 'psychological' theories, there is a much older, more deeply embedded conception of self in the western psyche. It is the 'self' of the Delphic maxim 'gnothi seauton', which was adopted by Socrates and became central to all of Greek philosophy as we know it." Paul Donnelly wrote a very interesting article which, in part, compares Freudian notions of self and the remedies to the problems which ensue from it, with tantric Buddhist notions of the same. The article is entitled "Loving the Poisons: Thinking through the Vajrayaana's Utilization of Desire and Aggression". It happens to have been published in a book I edited :) : Blumenthal, James. (ed.) 2005. Incompatible Visions: South Asian Religions in History and Culture: Madison: University of Wisconsin, Center For South Asia. Jim James Blumenthal Department of Philosophy Oregon State University 102-A Hovland Hall Corvallis, OR 97331-3902 From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 20:47:48 2007 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Sun Aug 5 20:47:52 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Theories of the self Message-ID: <989806.27962.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Curt wrote: "I am wondering what kind of basis you have for saying this? Socrates, for example, encourages Meno [76c] to receive initiation in the Eleusinian Mysteries (not to be confused, of course, with Apollo's cult) in order to better undertand his (Socrates') ideas concerning the soul In the Alcibiades Socrates states clearly "harken, therefore, to the advice I give you in agreement with the Delphic inscription, Know Thyself." [124a-b] Socrates also informs Alcibiades that "a God" has instructed him (Socrates) to speak to Alcibiades about this matter. I would go so far as to say that there is no evidence that Soctates/Plato "changed" the meaning of "gnothi seauton", or that their teachings concerning the soul and self-knowledge represented a "break with the past". *-*-* Regarding the "break with the past", perhaps I made it sound larger than it really was. Socrates initiates a tradition of introspection in that "knowing himself" is having a relationship with himself: the subject has a relationship with the internal "object," to use psychoanalytic jargon. Regarding "on what basis" I claim that there was a change between how oracle-seekers Vs. how Socrates might have approached Delphi, I believe I read that several years ago somewhere in Foucault or maybe it was Jaeger's *Paideia* or who knows where. It was long ago, but it stuck in my mind, because I actually felt a little disappointed at the oracle having such a profane meaning before Socrates. Give me several days and I'll check the source. So no, it's not my original idea, I'm sorry to say. Katherine Masis ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 21:42:48 2007 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Sun Aug 5 21:42:51 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Theories of the self Message-ID: <99146.30950.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Addendum to my previous post in response to Curt's post: Curt, I think I found what I was looking for right here on the Web. Go to http://www.theamericandissident.org/EssaysFoucault.htm and you?ll find a transcribed version of Foucault?s "Discourse and Truth: the Problematization of Parrhesia" (six lectures given at the Univ. of California at Berkeley, 1983). Anyway, Foucault says that *parrhesia* (I believe you were looking for this word on a previous post) becomes the means through which truth is disclosed to human beings by human beings (not gods) via the oracle at Delphi in Euripides? play *Ion*. Then he goes on to say that Socrates takes on a parrhesiastic role in the way he relates to his fellow Athenians. So it was in Euripides? *Ion*, not in Plato?s *Ion*, that the shift takes place. That explains the association I had made in my mind long ago. Some excerpts from Foucault?s essay: "The "parrhesiastic contract"?which became relatively important in the political life of rulers in the Greco-Roman world?consists in the following. The sovereign, the one who has power but lacks the truth, addresses himself to the one who has the truth but lacks power, and tells him: if you tell me the truth, no matter what this truth turns out to be, you won?t be punished; and those who are responsible for any injustices will be punished, but not those who speak the truth about such injustices. This idea of the "Parrhesiastic contract" became associated with parrhesia as a special privilege granted to the best and most honest citizens of the city. Of course, the parrhesiastic contract between Pentheus and his messenger is only a moral obligation since it lacks all institutional foundation. As the kings servant, the messenger is still quite vulnerable, and still takes a risk in speaking. But, although he is courageous, he is also not reckless, and is cautious about the consequences of what he might say. The "contract" is intended to limit the risk he takes in speaking." [ . . . ] "I shall not focus on the political and mytholo-gical aspects of the play, but on the theme of the shift of the place of truth?s disclosure from Delphi to Athens. As you know, the oracle at Delphi was supposed to be the place in Greece where human beings were told the truth by the gods through the utterances of the Pythia. But in this play we see a very explicit shift from the oracular truth at Delphi to Athens: Athens becomes the Place where truth now appears. And, as a part of this shift, truth is no longer disclosed by the gods to human beings (as at Delphi), but is disclosed to human beings by human beings through Athenian parrhesia." [ . . . ] "Finally, parrhesia's evolution can be traced through its relation to the field of philosophy--regarded as an art of life (techne tou biou). In the writings of Plato, Socrates appears in the role of the parrhesiastes. Although the word "parrhesia" appears several times in Plato, he never uses the word "parrhesiastes"-- a word which only appears later as part of the Greek vocabulary. And yet the role of Socrates is typically a parrhesiastic one, for he constantly confronts Athenians in the street and, as noted in the Apology, points out the truth to them, bidding them to care for wisdom, truth, and the perfection of their souls. And in the Alcibiades Majoras well, Socrates assumes a parrhesiastic role in the dialogue." http://www.theamericandissident.org/EssaysFoucault.htm ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 22:09:35 2007 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Sun Aug 5 22:09:39 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Theories of the Self (Addendum) Message-ID: <770215.12871.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Addendum to my previous post in response to Curt's post: Curt, I think I found what I was looking for right here on the Web. Go to http://www.theamericandissident.org/EssaysFoucault.htm and you?ll find a transcribed version of Foucault?s "Discourse and Truth: the Problematization of Parrhesia" (six lectures given at the Univ. of California at Berkeley, 1983). Anyway, Foucault says that *parrhesia* (I believe you were looking for this word on a previous post) becomes the means through which truth is disclosed to human beings by human beings (not gods) via the oracle at Delphi in Euripides? play *Ion*. Then he goes on to say that Socrates takes on a parrhesiastic role in the way he relates to his fellow Athenians. So it was in Euripides? *Ion*, not in Plato?s *Ion*, that the shift takes place. That explains the association I had made in my mind long ago. Some excerpts from Foucault?s essay: "The "parrhesiastic contract"?which became relatively important in the political life of rulers in the Greco-Roman world?consists in the following. The sovereign, the one who has power but lacks the truth, addresses himself to the one who has the truth but lacks power, and tells him: if you tell me the truth, no matter what this truth turns out to be, you won?t be punished; and those who are responsible for any injustices will be punished, but not those who speak the truth about such injustices. This idea of the "Parrhesiastic contract" became associated with parrhesia as a special privilege granted to the best and most honest citizens of the city. Of course, the parrhesiastic contract between Pentheus and his messenger is only a moral obligation since it lacks all institutional foundation. As the kings servant, the messenger is still quite vulnerable, and still takes a risk in speaking. But, although he is courageous, he is also not reckless, and is cautious about the consequences of what he might say. The "contract" is intended to limit the risk he takes in speaking." [ . . . ] "I shall not focus on the political and mytholo-gical aspects of the play, but on the theme of the shift of the place of truth?s disclosure from Delphi to Athens. As you know, the oracle at Delphi was supposed to be the place in Greece where human beings were told the truth by the gods through the utterances of the Pythia. But in this play we see a very explicit shift from the oracular truth at Delphi to Athens: Athens becomes the Place where truth now appears. And, as a part of this shift, truth is no longer disclosed by the gods to human beings (as at Delphi), but is disclosed to human beings by human beings through Athenian parrhesia." [ . . . ] "Finally, parrhesia's evolution can be traced through its relation to the field of philosophy--regarded as an art of life (techne tou biou). In the writings of Plato, Socrates appears in the role of the parrhesiastes. Although the word "parrhesia" appears several times in Plato, he never uses the word "parrhesiastes"-- a word which only appears later as part of the Greek vocabulary. And yet the role of Socrates is typically a parrhesiastic one, for he constantly confronts Athenians in the street and, as noted in the Apology, points out the truth to them, bidding them to care for wisdom, truth, and the perfection of their souls. And in the Alcibiades Majoras well, Socrates assumes a parrhesiastic role in the dialogue." http://www.theamericandissident.org/EssaysFoucault.htm ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From curt at cola.iges.org Mon Aug 6 09:39:14 2007 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Mon Aug 6 09:39:55 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Theories of the Self (Addendum) In-Reply-To: <770215.12871.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <770215.12871.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46B740A2.4010804@cola.iges.org> Katherine Masis wrote: > Curt, I think I found what I was looking for right > here on the Web. Go to > http://www.theamericandissident.org/EssaysFoucault.htm > .............. > Many many thanks for identifying the word "parrhesia"!!!! I would respecfully disagree with Messr. Foucault - and I would point out that he produces no primary sources that directly support what he is claiming - rather we must rely on Foucault's interpretation in order to reach his conclusions. On the other hand, if one wishes to argue that Socrates and Plato shared (as opposed to broke with) the outlook of the Dephic (and other "Mystery") cults, then one can quote directly from primary sources and allow them to speak for themselves. It is always possible that people mean something different from what they say, of course - but that is the harder case to make. - Curt From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Aug 6 10:08:50 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon Aug 6 10:08:54 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Theories of the self In-Reply-To: <989806.27962.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <989806.27962.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200708061008.50872.rhayes@unm.edu> On Sunday 05 August 2007 20:47, Katherine Masis wrote: > Socrates initiates a > tradition of introspection in that "knowing himself" > is having a relationship with himself: the subject > has a relationship with the internal "object," to use > psychoanalytic jargon. Something I learned from one of my philosophy professors many years ago is that knowing oneself for Socrates meant knowing where one stands with relation to the good. In the often-(mis)quoted Socratic claim that the unexamined life is not worth living, the context makes it quite clear that Socrates is telling his friends that any day that is not devoted to examining whether one's life is lived well---that is, in accordance with the good (which for Socrates seems to have been something objective and not subjective)---is a day wasted. The issue of whether Socrates was using "know thyself" in a novel way is not really a topic for buddha-l, but whether Socrates was saying something that woud make the Buddha smile with approval is something we might explore. I have always been struck at how Socratic the Buddha was, and at how Buddhistic Socrates was. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From a.fort at tcu.edu Mon Aug 6 13:00:00 2007 From: a.fort at tcu.edu (Andrew Fort) Date: Mon Aug 6 13:00:39 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Assistance requested In-Reply-To: <200708061540.l76FeVkw032310@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: I am sending this on behalf of my friend and colleague Bruce Sullivan at Northern Arizona University. Andy Fort I am engaged in a research project that seeks to determine the health effects of attendance and participation in Buddhist religious activities, including meditation. We would greatly appreciate your help in getting out word of this survey to the Buddhist community, as we very much want full participation in our national survey. Please distribute the announcement below to anyone you know of who might be interested. Inclusion of the announcement below in a newsletter or a website visited by Buddhist practitioners would be particularly helpful. > > Buddhists or individuals who practice aspects of Buddhism are invited to > participate in the Buddhist Health Study: a Web survey about Buddhist > religious practices, health practices and psychological characteristics. To > participate in the survey go to: http://www.nau.edu/buddhistsurvey > This study is sponsored by Northern > Arizona University. For questions about the study contact Bill.Wiist@nau.edu > or Bruce.Sullivan@nau.edu > > Thank you. > > =================0================== > Bruce M. Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor, Religious Studies > Dept. of Humanities, Arts, & Religion > Northern Arizona University, Box 6031 > Riles Building, room 104 > Flagstaff, AZ 86011 USA > phone: (928) 523-0244 fax: (928) 523-1881 From slachs at worldnet.att.net Tue Aug 7 14:19:36 2007 From: slachs at worldnet.att.net (Stuart Lachs) Date: Tue Aug 7 14:19:38 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Assistance requested References: Message-ID: <015301c7d930$46cebd00$6901a8c0@Stuki> Hi Andy, I was going to post it on Buddha-L but some one beat me to the punch. Stuart ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Fort" To: Cc: "Bruce M. Sullivan" Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 3:00 PM Subject: [Buddha-l] Assistance requested >I am sending this on behalf of my friend and colleague Bruce Sullivan at > Northern Arizona University. > Andy Fort > > I am engaged in a research project that seeks to determine the health > effects of attendance and participation in Buddhist religious activities, > including meditation. We would greatly appreciate your help in getting > out > word of this survey to the Buddhist community, as we very much want full > participation in our national survey. Please distribute the announcement > below to anyone you know of who might be interested. Inclusion of the > announcement below in a newsletter or a website visited by Buddhist > practitioners would be particularly helpful. >> >> Buddhists or individuals who practice aspects of Buddhism are invited to >> participate in the Buddhist Health Study: a Web survey about Buddhist >> religious practices, health practices and psychological characteristics. >> To >> participate in the survey go to: http://www.nau.edu/buddhistsurvey >> This study is sponsored by Northern >> Arizona University. For questions about the study contact >> Bill.Wiist@nau.edu >> or Bruce.Sullivan@nau.edu >> >> Thank you. >> >> =================0================== >> Bruce M. Sullivan, Ph.D. Professor, Religious Studies >> Dept. of Humanities, Arts, & Religion >> Northern Arizona University, Box 6031 >> Riles Building, room 104 >> Flagstaff, AZ 86011 USA >> phone: (928) 523-0244 fax: (928) 523-1881 > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jkirk at spro.net Tue Aug 14 08:47:17 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue Aug 14 08:47:09 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] New book Message-ID: <004801c7de82$02d00350$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Here's a new book by one of Thailand's best ethnographers of Buddhism. I've enjoyed and learned from her other books and plan to get this one, pronto. Kamala Tiyavanich. _Sons of the Buddha: The Early Lives of Three Extraordinary Thai Masters_ (Paperback). Wisdom Pubs, 2007. Cheers, Joanna No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM From curt at cola.iges.org Tue Aug 14 16:03:43 2007 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Tue Aug 14 16:04:13 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute Message-ID: <46C226BF.3030100@cola.iges.org> There is a video of Harris' performance at the Aspen Institute. I am only about 1/4 of the way through it so far. He talks at length about Buddhism and Hinduism - but for some reason he focuses all of his attention on Sai Baba. Probably for the same reason that when talks about Christianity he tends to refer to Mel Gibson, and when he talks about Islam he tends to refer to 9/11. The poor fellow seems to have some kind of bug up his arse. It must be very uncomfortable. Here's the video: http://www.aifestival.org/index2.php?menu=3&sub=1&title=172&action=full_info It is also at numerous other locations, including youtube. Just google on "sam harris aspen". - Curt From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Aug 14 17:02:44 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Tue Aug 14 17:03:00 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute In-Reply-To: <46C226BF.3030100@cola.iges.org> References: <46C226BF.3030100@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <200708141702.45534.rhayes@unm.edu> On Tuesday 14 August 2007 16:03, curt wrote: > The poor fellow seems to have > some kind of bug up his arse. It must be very uncomfortable. Why not ask someone who has had a similar bug about Stephen Batchelor? Even many of us who agree with quite a bit of what Sam Harris says about the institutional evils of religion find him tediously polemical. Thanks for the link to his Aspen performance, but I may give it a miss. I'll wait until Michael Moore makes a documentary about Harris. For the past few days I have been enjoying a somewhat light but still informative book by Richard Brookhiser called What Would the Founders Do? (I ordered it on the mistaken assumption is was a how-to manual on building foundries, but I like it anyway.) I learned the context of one of my favorite quotes. Everyone knows that Jefferson (Thomas, not Airplane) said "I have sworn on the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." What I learned from Brookhiser is that Jefferson said this in a letter in which he first observed that the mobs of priests were afraid of him. He then said something to the effect "The priests SHOULD be afraid of me, because I have sworn...." Anyone who terrrifies priests, bhikkhus, rabbis, imams, roshis and dharmacharis (and recognizes them as forms of tyranny over the mind of man) can't be all bad, even if he is tediously polemical. Harris is not nearly as clever or articulate as Thomas (Jefferson, not Aquinas), but at least he is doing the service of reminding a country deeply addicted to religion just what a hideous drug religion can be. Speaking of people who are tediously polemical, I have taken up a new hobby: ranting and raving against Republican policies. I've been doing that on buddha-l since the days of President George II, of course, but now I'm doing it the way adolescents do it: on a blog site. If you get tired of my cloyingly sweet Mr Nice persona here on buddha-l, give my blog a whirl. -- Richard http://dayamati.blogspot.com From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Tue Aug 14 17:51:58 2007 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Tue Aug 14 17:52:03 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vipassana Centers and Psychological Reductionism In-Reply-To: <001e01c7b39f$abb55c30$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> References: <004c01c7b375$6ff289e0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <001e01c7b39f$abb55c30$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <9178786db0083a5103e3755c55999046@earthlink.net> Joanna et al., I'm replying nearly two months after Joanna asked me for some clarification of a slightly derogatory post I sent. I apologize to the sangha of the four quarters for my cavalier words and to Joanna for the gross delay. I've been alive in the meantime; you know how that can be. Apparently, I wrote, > "On another front, there is not rational but psychological reductionism > present in several strands within the field of Buddhism and > psychology." > "...it continues today in the emphases of people like Jack Kornfield > and the > whole Insight Meditation Society gang,..." So Joanna asked, > Would you mind explaining what you mean here, giving a few examples? > I'm not > aware that the IMS gang, as you refer to them, are a bunch of > psychological > reductionists--but then what do I know? First, I'm not sure what Joanna knows, but I imagine it is many things I don't. Definitely good for you, Joanna. But as to the first question, what I was getting at was that my impression of IMS and Spirit Rock (an allied California center) was that they tend to minimize the Buddhist aspect of their practice, effectively portraying Buddhist practice as an excellent means of changing one's mind. This comes in contrast to, say, portraying Buddhist practice as an excellent means of entering nirvana. I should add that I see these two depictions of Buddhist practice as complementary, rather than exclusionary, but choosing one over the other puts a center, by necessity, into a camp *tending toward* psychological or nirvanic reductionism. All that said, I have to admit that a quick look around the IMS and SR websites reveals to me that they have changed a great deal in the last few years. I recall that the SR website didn't even *mention* Buddhism on its splash screen or first page. Now Buddhism is prominent and unmistakable. Where a few years ago almost every single SR teacher was a licensed psychologist, now a good percentage are not and there are several actual Theravada monks on the council. It may be that these centers are moving closer to the historical mainstream of the Buddhist tradition as they mature. Good thoughts, Franz From jkirk at spro.net Tue Aug 14 20:48:35 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue Aug 14 20:48:39 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute In-Reply-To: <200708141702.45534.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <46C226BF.3030100@cola.iges.org> <200708141702.45534.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <001001c7dee6$c6888ab0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Speaking of people who are tediously polemical, I have taken up a new hobby: ranting and raving against Republican policies. I've been doing that on buddha-l since the days of President George II, of course, but now I'm doing it the way adolescents do it: on a blog site. If you get tired of my cloyingly sweet Mr Nice persona here on buddha-l, give my blog a whirl. -- Richard http://dayamati.blogspot.com ====================== Justlooked at your blog--you were quoting one of Whitman's productions. He said of his utopian city: "Where children are taught to be laws unto themselves, and to depend on themselves; " This was already tried back in the fifties and sixties at Summerhill, and in the end was found not to work. Wasn't that idea the basis of the novel, _Lord of the Flies_? Cheers, Joanna No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM From jkirk at spro.net Tue Aug 14 22:25:08 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue Aug 14 22:25:14 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Vipassana Centers and Psychological Reductionism In-Reply-To: <9178786db0083a5103e3755c55999046@earthlink.net> References: <004c01c7b375$6ff289e0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><001e01c7b39f$abb55c30$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <9178786db0083a5103e3755c55999046@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002d01c7def4$43bced70$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> All that said, I have to admit that a quick look around the IMS and SR websites reveals to me that they have changed a great deal in the last few years. I recall that the SR website didn't even *mention* Buddhism on its splash screen or first page. Now Buddhism is prominent and unmistakable. Where a few years ago almost every single SR teacher was a licensed psychologist, now a good percentage are not and there are several actual Theravada monks on the council. It may be that these centers are moving closer to the historical mainstream of the Buddhist tradition as they mature. Good thoughts, Franz =========== Yes, and not only all of the above--but IMS has always had visiting monks of varous Buddhist traditions involved in its programs (well, at least since I first encountered IMS back in the 70s) plus next door to IMS as it were is the Barrie Center for Buddhist Studies, for people more scholarly inclined. By encontered I don't mewna to say I ever went there. Oddly, although I was working not far from Barre, Mass. In southern Vermont, and got their newsletter and sent them dana when I could, somehow I never made it to an IMS program--partly because the accommodations struck me as not comfortable enough for a persn with my physical problems. Around the time that I retired and moved to the far west, they embarked on upgrading their facilities. These days I keep in mind the idea of doing a retreat some day at Spirit Rock, located in Marin County Calif. where I lived for some time in my teens. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM From jvriens at free.fr Wed Aug 15 00:37:29 2007 From: jvriens at free.fr (Joy Vriens) Date: Wed Aug 15 00:37:30 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Certified Buddhas References: <004801c7de82$02d00350$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: >From 1 September, all reincarnated living Buddhas - eminent monks - will first have to be approved by the Chinese government. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6944750.stm From jvriens at free.fr Wed Aug 15 03:15:59 2007 From: jvriens at free.fr (Joy Vriens) Date: Wed Aug 15 03:16:11 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute References: <001001c7dee6$c6888ab0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Hi Joanna, >Justlooked at your blog--you were quoting one of Whitman's productions. He >said of his utopian city: >"Where children are taught to be laws unto themselves, and to depend on >themselves; " >This was already tried back in the fifties and sixties at Summerhill, and in >the end was found not to work. Wasn't that idea the basis of the novel, >_Lord of the Flies_? There seem to be double standards for things that are tried and turn out not to work properly. More non-authoritarian or anarchisticish approaches are tried once and when they turn out "not to work" are abandoned rapidly. The story of its failure will then be cherished and continuously repeated in order to avoid new attempts. Authoritarian systems don't "work" either, but somehow they last. If we apply the same rule to religions, that have been tried for thousands of years then we must conclude they haven't "worked" either. If we compare the number of members and the number of Buddhas and saints or even members living up to their religion, then the result is near to zero, statistically speaking. The children of the Lord of the Flies were already conditioned by an authoritarian, competitive society. They simply recreated in more rudimentary and direct ways what they had been taught through example. The society they created is not different from ours as far as I can see (which is hardly beyond my own nose, long as it may be). Joy From jkirk at spro.net Wed Aug 15 07:38:39 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Aug 15 07:38:43 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute In-Reply-To: References: <001001c7dee6$c6888ab0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <002001c7df41$968c64c0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> There seem to be double standards for things that are tried and turn out not to work properly. More non-authoritarian or anarchisticish approaches are tried once and when they turn out "not to work" are abandoned rapidly. The story of its failure will then be cherished and continuously repeated in order to avoid new attempts. Authoritarian systems don't "work" either, but somehow they last. If we apply the same rule to religions, that have been tried for thousands of years then we must conclude they haven't "worked" either. If we compare the number of members and the number of Buddhas and saints or even members living up to their religion, then the result is near to zero, statistically speaking. The children of the Lord of the Flies were already conditioned by an authoritarian, competitive society. They simply recreated in more rudimentary and direct ways what they had been taught through example. The society they created is not different from ours as far as I can see (which is hardly beyond my own nose, long as it may be). Joy ============= Hi Joy The reason experiments like Summerhill were abandoned because they didn't work is because they were not based on a structure of power and authority that exists to maintain itself at the expense of everybody else, regardless. Nevertheless, since children become adults, among whom the requirement to get along with other people is rather paramount (as opposed to doing one's own thing regardless of everyone else's safety and enjoyment of life), leaving children to their own devices exclusively would seem counterproductive to everyone except to an "anarchisticish" type. The same holds for such reformist or socially innovative groups as the Shakers, and other early American groups, to create benevolent societies where all beings were respected....... in oppositon as it were to the Puritan types, who simply melded into the body politic, as the latter suits the Puritan type, as you suggest. The reformist groups died out. Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Aug 15 08:27:15 2007 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Aug 15 08:27:44 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute In-Reply-To: References: <001001c7dee6$c6888ab0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <46C30D43.20700@cola.iges.org> Joy Vriens wrote: > > > There seem to be double standards for things that are tried and turn out not to work properly. More non-authoritarian or anarchisticish approaches are tried once and when they turn out "not to work" are abandoned rapidly. The story of its failure will then be cherished and continuously repeated in order to avoid new attempts. Just this morning on Democracy Now, a speech by Canadian author and activist Naomi Klein was played. The speech had been delivered to a meeting of sociologists in California. One of the main points of her speech was just exactly what Joy is saying above. In particular she pointed out how the fall of Soviet style "communism" is now touted as "proof" that unrestrained capitalism is the only system that "works". This has been taken to mean that all forms of socialistic and/or "welfare state" style systems have "failed". This reasoning is actually very similar to that employed by Sam Harris and others who insists that "all religions" have been shown to be forms of mental illness and/or mental deficiency. Harris believes that the Mel Gibsons, Bin Ladens and Sai Babas of the world "prove" something about religion in general - just as people like George Bush believe that the evils of Soviet style "communism" prove that guarneteeing universal basic medical care for children is a bad idea. The conclusions do not follow from the evidence presented - except for those who are already convinced (or very very very easily convinced). - Curt From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Wed Aug 15 09:53:28 2007 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (wongwf@comp.nus.edu.sg) Date: Wed Aug 15 09:53:40 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute Message-ID: <1302.137.132.80.35.1187193208.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> Some random thoughts from random reading of this thread: 1. Everyone loves a winner. Communism lost so it is an easy target to bash. 2. Whatever "works" or win is not necessary the better choice. What is the definition of "better" anyway? 3. "One size fit all" (a la "Western democracy", "two-party system", "2 year long, multi-billion dollar elections") often do not work - and when it does, it is not always "for the better". 4. Our assessment of the situation is often flawed with inaccuracies and prejudices. See: http://video.google.com/videoplaydocid=2670820702819322251&q for a thought-provoking lecture. 5. "All religion as mental illnesses." Rampant consumerism, corporate greed, and fear of this and that are "normal"? 6. Religion and wars: just as many, if not more, wars are caused - and will be caused - by greed, hatred and delusion. W.F. Wong From aktor at ifpr.sdu.dk Wed Aug 15 05:55:44 2007 From: aktor at ifpr.sdu.dk (Mikael Aktor) Date: Wed Aug 15 11:04:25 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) Message-ID: Dear list members, Can some on this list direct me to reviews of Paul Williams' The Unexpected Way - particularly from a buddhological point of view (i.e. addressing Williams' critique of buddhist doctrines). Best regards, mikael ----------------------------- Mikael Aktor, Fixed-term lecturer, PhD Department of Philosophy, Education and Study of Religions University of Southern Denmark Campusvej 55, DK-5230 Odense M, Denmark Phone: +45 6550 3318 (work) / +45 3696 9054 (home) / +45 2830 7394 (mobile) From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Aug 15 11:09:53 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Aug 15 11:10:01 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute In-Reply-To: <001001c7dee6$c6888ab0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> References: <46C226BF.3030100@cola.iges.org> <200708141702.45534.rhayes@unm.edu> <001001c7dee6$c6888ab0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <200708151109.54288.rhayes@unm.edu> On Tuesday 14 August 2007 20:48, jkirk wrote: > "Where children are taught to be laws unto themselves, and to depend on > themselves; " > > This was already tried back in the fifties and sixties at Summerhill, and > in the end was found not to work. Wasn't that idea the basis of the novel, > _Lord of the Flies_? So what is the alternative? Children should be taught to be dependent and blindly obedient? The Buddha might have longed for such children in his bhikkhu-sangha, but I'm not sure we'd be better off as a society if young people were not encouraged to think critically and independently. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Wed Aug 15 11:15:05 2007 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (wongwf@comp.nus.edu.sg) Date: Wed Aug 15 11:15:13 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Dan Gilbert: Why are we happy? Why aren't we happy? Message-ID: <1570.137.132.80.35.1187198105.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> Another interesting talk... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7822696446273926158 W.F. Wong From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Aug 15 11:16:50 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Aug 15 11:16:58 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute In-Reply-To: <1302.137.132.80.35.1187193208.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> References: <1302.137.132.80.35.1187193208.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <200708151116.50467.rhayes@unm.edu> On Wednesday 15 August 2007 09:53, wongwf@comp.nus.edu.sg wrote: > 6. Religion and wars: just as many, if not more, wars are caused - and > will be caused - by greed, hatred and delusion. ...and by those religions that promote hatred and are based on delusion. Those that do not promote some form of hatred and are not based on serious delusions are few. It seems to me that the "anti-religion" gambit usually consists in defining religion as institutionally justified hatred and delusion, then saying of anything that is not hateful and deluded that it is not really religion. This seems to be the thinking of many who claim that Buddhism is not a religion. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Aug 15 11:29:37 2007 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Aug 15 11:30:07 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46C33801.4000906@cola.iges.org> I don't know of any reviews by either Buddhists or Buddhologists, but you might try reading two other books by Williams: "Mahayana Buddhism" which he wrote while apparently still "happily" a Buddhist, and compare it to the book "Buddhist Thought", which he "co-authored" with Anthnony Tribe (but Tribe actually only wrote the final chapter). The second book was written while Williams was "in transit", so to speak, and the differences between the two books are striking. In my opinion one can clearly see (in "Buddhist Thought") that Williams had already decided that Buddhism was inherently "nihilistic" (in a bad way). I have found that pretty much anything written by Williams is well worth reading - I also have (but have so far only skimmed) his little book on "Buddha Nature" (right now I can't even remember the title). I even liked "Buddhist Thought" very much, but that would not be a book I could honestly recommend for its stated purpose, as a general high-level introductory text for "Buddhist Studies" - simply because the book needs some kind of disclaimer on it: "Warning! Author is a Recovering Buddhist". - Curt Mikael Aktor wrote: > Dear list members, > > Can some on this list direct me to reviews of Paul Williams' The Unexpected Way - particularly from a buddhological point of view (i.e. addressing Williams' critique of buddhist doctrines). > > Best regards, > mikael > > ----------------------------- > Mikael Aktor, Fixed-term lecturer, PhD > Department of Philosophy, Education and Study of Religions > University of Southern Denmark > Campusvej 55, DK-5230 Odense M, Denmark > Phone: +45 6550 3318 (work) / +45 3696 9054 (home) / +45 2830 7394 (mobile) > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > From slachs at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 15 11:41:09 2007 From: slachs at worldnet.att.net (Stuart Lachs) Date: Wed Aug 15 11:41:13 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute References: <46C226BF.3030100@cola.iges.org><200708141702.45534.rhayes@unm.edu><001001c7dee6$c6888ab0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708151109.54288.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <008d01c7df63$77442720$6901a8c0@Stuki> > On Tuesday 14 August 2007 20:48, jkirk wrote: > >> "Where children are taught to be laws unto themselves, and to depend on >> themselves; " >> >> This was already tried back in the fifties and sixties at Summerhill, and >> in the end was found not to work. Wasn't that idea the basis of the >> novel, >> _Lord of the Flies_? Summerhill was started by A.S. Neill in 1921 in Germany. He moved the school to Austria for a short time before moving to England and taking the name Summerhill. Neill died in 1973, but the school continues, being run by his wife Ena until 1985 and today by their daughter Zoe. The school had the respect of Bertrand Russell and Henry Miller among other people. I am not sure the school "was found not to work." I think it is hard to translate what Neill and others were able to do to a broad base of teachers and schools, though there is still wide interest in their view. Summerhill now has 90 students, perhaps the most they have ever had, and has been running continuously since 1921. For those interested, see their website: http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/pages/about.html . Stuart From jkirk at spro.net Wed Aug 15 15:08:27 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Aug 15 15:08:29 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute In-Reply-To: <200708151109.54288.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <46C226BF.3030100@cola.iges.org><200708141702.45534.rhayes@unm.edu><001001c7dee6$c6888ab0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708151109.54288.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <000501c7df80$6cc07a70$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> So what is the alternative? Children should be taught to be dependent and blindly obedient? -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release Date: 8/14/2007 5:19 PM From jkirk at spro.net Wed Aug 15 15:09:34 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Aug 15 15:09:37 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute In-Reply-To: <200708151109.54288.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <46C226BF.3030100@cola.iges.org><200708141702.45534.rhayes@unm.edu><001001c7dee6$c6888ab0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <200708151109.54288.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <000601c7df80$94eb8760$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> So what is the alternative? Children should be taught to be dependent and blindly obedient? -- Richard Hayes ================ Who proposes that? Not I~~~~~~ Joanna No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release Date: 8/14/2007 5:19 PM From jkirk at spro.net Wed Aug 15 15:15:40 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Aug 15 15:15:43 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute In-Reply-To: <008d01c7df63$77442720$6901a8c0@Stuki> References: <46C226BF.3030100@cola.iges.org><200708141702.45534.rhayes@unm.edu><001001c7dee6$c6888ab0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><200708151109.54288.rhayes@unm.edu> <008d01c7df63$77442720$6901a8c0@Stuki> Message-ID: <000701c7df81$6ee560d0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Summerhill was started by A.S. Neill in 1921 in Germany. He moved the school to Austria for a short time before moving to England and taking the name Summerhill. Neill died in 1973, but the school continues, being run by his wife Ena until 1985 and today by their daughter Zoe. The school had the respect of Bertrand Russell and Henry Miller among other people. I am not sure the school "was found not to work." I think it is hard to translate what Neill and others were able to do to a broad base of teachers and schools, though there is still wide interest in their view. Summerhill now has 90 students, perhaps the most they have ever had, and has been running continuously since 1921. For those interested, see their website: http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/pages/about.html . Stuart =================== Thanks for sending this information. I read about Neill and his experimental school back in the seventies.......since then the operations and practices at the school no doubt have undergone changes. My comment about it not working was based on remiscences of former pupils at the school and a few general discussions, form the seventies, of that kind of schooling. I'm pleased to know that it has been more successful than it used to be. Joanna No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release Date: 8/14/2007 5:19 PM From Margaret.Gouin at bristol.ac.uk Thu Aug 16 02:01:14 2007 From: Margaret.Gouin at bristol.ac.uk (Margaret Gouin) Date: Thu Aug 16 02:01:21 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60321.88.203.57.78.1187251274.squirrel@webmail-dev.bris.ac.uk> On Wed, August 15, 2007 12:55 pm, Mikael Aktor wrote: > Can some on this list direct me to reviews of Paul Williams' The > Unexpected Way - particularly from a buddhological point of view (i.e. > addressing Williams' critique of buddhist doctrines). I would suggest that a good starting point is: O?Grady, Paul. 2003. ?From Lhasa to Rome: Williams?s Unexpected Way?. Contemporary Buddhism 4.2: 159-67 O'Grady is a Catholic and also has some interesting comments from that point of view. Margaret -- Margaret Gouin PhD Candidate Centre for Buddhist Studies Department of Theology and Religious Studies University of Bristol (UK) From jvriens at free.fr Thu Aug 16 11:47:52 2007 From: jvriens at free.fr (Joy Vriens) Date: Thu Aug 16 11:47:53 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute References: <002001c7df41$968c64c0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Joanna wrote: >The reason experiments like Summerhill were abandoned because they didn't >work is because they were not based on a structure of power and authority >that exists to maintain itself at the expense of everybody else, regardless. Yes, that is also one of the main messages of Regis Debray's book I mentioned in another message: a structure of power and authority is necessary for the survival of a group. It is difficult to row against the stream, especially if one doesn't have a boat. But ideas can hibernate and be revived without a heavy structure. Perhaps we ought to separate the notions of "working" and "lasting". Something that works doesn't necessarily last and the other way round. How can we teach and learn freedom in the largest possible sense in systems that lack freedom? That seems to be somehow contradictory to me. I am abhorred by what the (French) school system does with my children and can only look at it helplessly since schools go with the society they prepare the children for. The republic eats its children. Joy From jvriens at free.fr Thu Aug 16 12:06:16 2007 From: jvriens at free.fr (Joy Vriens) Date: Thu Aug 16 12:06:16 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute References: <46C30D43.20700@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: Hi Curt, >Just this morning on Democracy Now, a speech by Canadian author and >activist Naomi Klein was played. The speech had been delivered to a >meeting of sociologists in California. One of the main points of her >speech was just exactly what Joy is saying above. In particular she >pointed out how the fall of Soviet style "communism" is now touted as >"proof" that unrestrained capitalism is the only system that "works". >This has been taken to mean that all forms of socialistic and/or >"welfare state" style systems have "failed". Yes, that was exactly what I had in mind and I hesitated to bring in the exemple of the fall of communism. Marxism can't be reduced to Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Paul Pot. And if marxism doesn't work, that doesn't entail that all of its objectives are wrong and ought to be given up. Having grown up in a family with brothers and sisters, sharing, helping and solidarity morally feel like the most natural things to do. Of course, reality doesn't always reflect that ideal. But that is not a reason to simply discard it. >This reasoning is actually very similar to that employed by Sam Harris >and others who insists that "all religions" have been shown to be forms >of mental illness and/or mental deficiency. Harris believes that the Mel >Gibsons, Bin Ladens and Sai Babas of the world "prove" something about >religion in general - just as people like George Bush believe that the >evils of Soviet style "communism" prove that guarneteeing universal >basic medical care for children is a bad idea. The conclusions do not >follow from the evidence presented - except for those who are already >convinced (or very very very easily convinced). I don't see "religion" (identity and motivation building) as a phenomenon that is merely limited to religions. The "mental illness and mental deficiency" that Harris seems to detect in religions are much more widespread and they often even share the same "religious" caracteristics without seeming to recognise them. I have a problem with militants like Sam Harris, Michel Onfray, Richard Dawkins and other - as I see them - Rationalistic fundamentalists. I know that modern communication requires to take a clear point of view and to say it loudly, clearly and repeatedly, but I think it has its negative side effects. Part of me thinks like them but I find their style counterproductive. Being heard, really heard, is not about quantity but quality. Moreover, it is difficult to imagine a rationality junkie locking himself up into expressing a specific point of view or being a figurehead, without losing some of their credibility. I saw an interesting exhibition on witchcraft and healing in a small town in Auvergne (Chateaugay) today. One of their conclusions was that science took over from witchcraft, not only the objectives but also its less rational aspects. If science takes over irrational objectives like destruction and mass destruction, how rational can it be? Joy From curt at cola.iges.org Thu Aug 16 13:10:36 2007 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Thu Aug 16 13:11:11 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute In-Reply-To: References: <46C30D43.20700@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <46C4A12C.1080206@cola.iges.org> Joy Vriens wrote: > > > I saw an interesting exhibition on witchcraft and healing in a small town in Auvergne (Chateaugay) today. One of their conclusions was that science took over from witchcraft, not only the objectives but also its less rational aspects. If science takes over irrational objectives like destruction and mass destruction, how rational can it be? > > > Was the exhibit based on local accounts of witchcraft and healing? That could be very interesting - almost all information available in English about "folk traditions" of that sort deal exclusively with (and not too surprisingly) England and also with other English speaking people. But Gerald Gardner, the guy who is most closely associated with Wicca in it's beginnings, claimed to be in contact with "witches" in continental Europe. But he claimed lots of things - many of which are highly questionable. And as everyone who has read the first chapter of Rick Fields book "How the Swans Came to the Lake" knows, the earliest pioneers of Buddhism in the West were all flaky occultists, just like Gerald Gardner. I've heard of similar theories to the one you refer to - but mostly I've heard of people who speculate that is was more the "high" (as in "learned") magical traditions (as opposed to the "low" magic of village healers and "witches") associated with Hermeticists, Alchemists, etc that was "taken over" by the scientists. Frances Yates wrote a fascinating book about this: "Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition", which is a great read even if you don't buy her theories. - Curt From jkirk at spro.net Thu Aug 16 13:41:59 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Thu Aug 16 13:42:16 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute In-Reply-To: References: <002001c7df41$968c64c0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <003701c7e03d$8b1e63c0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Joanna wrote: >The reason experiments like Summerhill were abandoned because they >didn't work is because they were not based on a structure of power and >authority that exists to maintain itself at the expense of everybody else, regardless. Yes, that is also one of the main messages of Regis Debray's book I mentioned in another message: a structure of power and authority is necessary for the survival of a group. It is difficult to row against the stream, especially if one doesn't have a boat. But ideas can hibernate and be revived without a heavy structure. Perhaps we ought to separate the notions of "working" and "lasting". Something that works doesn't necessarily last and the other way round. How can we teach and learn freedom in the largest possible sense in systems that lack freedom? That seems to be somehow contradictory to me. I am abhorred by what the (French) school system does with my children and can only look at it helplessly since schools go with the society they prepare the children for. The republic eats its children. Joy ==================== One of the problems seems to me is that freedom isn't an essence --the freedom we still worry about comes from 18th c. political-economy, and now we are living in and being trashed by a hyper-industrial multinational monolithic polit.-economy, where corporations--like gun manufacturers--with big lobbying bucks can override the most minimum attempts to ensure public saftety and well being. What is the meaning of that old freedom concept today? Who is killing whom in the ghettos of urban slums? Young people--children, if you will. The idea of civic freedom has been utterly warped by the idea of corporations as individuals, having the same "rights" as individual citizens. Hence: no way to control guns or keep them out of the hands of children, much less adults. Since we just found out that Summerhill is alive and well, maybe someone (who has kids) would find out how it managed to survive all these years. There were times back in the seventies when, as I recall, they were down to maybe less than 10 students. Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/956 - Release Date: 8/16/2007 9:48 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/956 - Release Date: 8/16/2007 9:48 AM From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Aug 17 05:59:35 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri Aug 17 05:59:42 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute In-Reply-To: <46C4A12C.1080206@cola.iges.org> References: <46C30D43.20700@cola.iges.org> <46C4A12C.1080206@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <200708170559.36059.rhayes@unm.edu> On Thursday 16 August 2007 13:10, curt wrote: > And as everyone who has read the first chapter of Rick Fields book "How > the Swans Came to the Lake" knows, the earliest pioneers of Buddhism in > the West were all flaky occultists, just like Gerald Gardner. Rick Fields oversimplifies the picture considerably. There were not only swans coming to the lack, but ducks and geese. While a lot of early American enthusiasts of Buddhism were spiritualists seeking messages from the Other Side, others were drawn to the "Nobody here but us scientists" mantra, and yet others were captivated by the sheer beauty of Asian (and especially Japanese) art forms. It could be argued, I guess, that all these people were flaky in one way or another (since, after all, every who has hair has dandruff), but there were at least as many hostile to occultism as there were enamored by it. By the way, Curt, have you read the interview with Bob Sharf in the Summer issue of Tricycle yet? He says a lot of thinks that I suspect you would agree with. I agree with almost everything he says, and the one thing I disagree with is a relatively trivial matter. If time permits, I'll say more about all this. (Time may refuse. It's the beginning of a new semester here, and I no longer have the luxury of using my time as I would like. "The woods are lovely, dark and deep, but I have promises to keep" and all that.) -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From aktor at ifpr.sdu.dk Fri Aug 17 00:33:45 2007 From: aktor at ifpr.sdu.dk (Mikael Aktor) Date: Fri Aug 17 06:03:12 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] O Grady review of Unexpected Way Message-ID: Margaret wrote > I would suggest that a good starting point is: > O'Grady, Paul. 2003. 'From Lhasa to Rome: Williams's Unexpected Way'. Contemporary Buddhism 4.2: 159-67 Thank you. I liked his review although his critique is mostly about Williams' misrepresentation of Catholicism. He ends his review by this sarcastic remark: "the irony of this book is that precisely on the basis of its characterization of Catholic Christianity, it will tend to actually increase traffic in the opposite direction to Williams' own way." Also he has a satisfying critique of Williams' notions of resurrection (and in general of ideas of "post-mortem existence" including Buddhist ones). mikael ----------------------------- Mikael Aktor, Fixed-term lecturer, PhD Department of Philosophy, Education and Study of Religions University of Southern Denmark From jvriens at free.fr Fri Aug 17 08:31:22 2007 From: jvriens at free.fr (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri Aug 17 08:31:22 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute References: <003701c7e03d$8b1e63c0$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: Joanna wrote: >What is the meaning of that old freedom concept today? No idea, but I think as long as the question is kept open and "freedom" is not appropriated, there is a fairer chance of approaching it (not an essence indeed, but more likely a sort of equilibrium) Joy From jvriens at free.fr Fri Aug 17 08:32:39 2007 From: jvriens at free.fr (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri Aug 17 08:32:39 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] sam harris at the aspen institute References: <46C4A12C.1080206@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: Curt wrote: >Was the exhibit based on local accounts of witchcraft and healing? Yes it was. It was set up by an organisation called SEREST, connected with UNESCO, in order to make an inventory of and to safeguard the immaterial inheritance. http://www.serest.org/pages/expo_sor_01pag.html I bought one of their books called Formes et structures des th?rapeutiques traditionnelles written by Hugues Berton. Half of it are transcripts with sorcerers and healers. I discovered a fascinating world and a "witch" called Marcelle, who could have been a Buddhist. Here is the summary of her teaching in her own words and imperfect syntaxis. "Toute la vie est uniquement dans la pens?e qui construit toute la vie, mais que les bonnes les mauvaises sont renvoy?es sur soi-m?me et peut tuer les plus m?chant ?tre bon avec son prochain et les animaux c'est avoir la divinit? en soie. Et recevoir tout le bonheur que l'on d?sire ne pas croire a la maladie, m?me ?tant r?tablir la v?rit? en envoyant que des bonnes pens?es m?me a ses ennemies l? se trouve le bonheur" "The whole of life is only in the thoughts building the whole of life. But the good and bad [thoughts] are redirected to oneself and can even kill the meanest being. To be good with one's fellow humans and animals is to have the divinity in oneself and to receive all happiness that one desires. To not believe in illness and reestablish truth by sending good thoughts even to one's ennemies. That is how one can find happiness" She heals others by thinking them without the illness. Illness is a thought. Thoughts are the devil. Devils are merely thoughts. She "reestablishes the truth" by thinking the person without the illness. She explains that even when she sees the illness, she doesn't see it. She has a special way to enter in contact with the spirits of the elements. To enter in contact with the spirit of the water, she sits next to a stream, with her feet in the stream and her back against a tree. She waits without thoughts until the fairy enters in contact with her through thought. The contacts can't be forced, it's the spirits that contact us. She approaches everyone with what she calls a neutral heart, no maliciousness, no affection. I thought all that is pretty good. When the writer asks her about the spirit of the fire, who purifies everything and who purifies the negativity in people by neutralizing it, she says his name is Lucifer and that he is a good spirit... And her explanation makes a lot of sense. >I've heard of similar theories to the one you refer to - but mostly I've >heard of people who speculate that is was more the "high" (as in >"learned") magical traditions (as opposed to the "low" magic of village >healers and "witches") associated with Hermeticists, Alchemists, etc >that was "taken over" by the scientists. Frances Yates wrote a >fascinating book about this: "Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic >Tradition", which is a great read even if you don't buy her theories. One of the people organising the exhibit explained how a hospital doctor sometimes calling in the help of healers for desperate causes was thrown out by the order. When they organised a similar exhibit in the Puy en Velay, the priest had posters for the exhibit torn off the walls. Joy From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Aug 22 10:31:42 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Aug 22 10:31:53 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] An arresting story about Myanmar Message-ID: <200708221031.43436.rhayes@unm.edu> http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/08/22/myanmar-arrests.html The cited story mentions Myanmar's universities. There was a time when the only universities allowed to operate in Myanmar were Buddhist institutions. The relationship between the bhikkhu-sangha and the military government in Myanmar has baffled me for years. Idealistic Western secular humanist ex-hippy small-c communist that I am, I always assume that Buddhists will automatically be anti-establishment and especially anti-military. Reality, therefore, nearly always comes as a bit of a shock to me. But I continue to ignore it. Reality, I think, is quite overrated. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From chanfu at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 16:14:16 2007 From: chanfu at gmail.com (Chan Fu) Date: Wed Aug 22 16:14:21 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] An arresting story about Myanmar In-Reply-To: <200708221031.43436.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <200708221031.43436.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: On 8/22/07, Richard Hayes wrote: > http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/08/22/myanmar-arrests.html > > The cited story mentions Myanmar's universities. There was a time when the > only universities allowed to operate in Myanmar were Buddhist institutions. > The relationship between the bhikkhu-sangha and the military government in > Myanmar has baffled me for years. Idealistic Western secular humanist > ex-hippy small-c communist that I am, I always assume that Buddhists will > automatically be anti-establishment and especially anti-military. Reality, > therefore, nearly always comes as a bit of a shock to me. But I continue to > ignore it. Reality, I think, is quite overrated. Not a bad shock, as shocks go. Will it baffle you when state-supported religion becomes de-rigeur here? Of course not. So why should the parallel baffle you? Look at Sri Lanka or Thailand. Buddhism in Asia has become indistinguishable from christian or islamic purity and prudity. Our universities are folding like dominoes in their eagerness to appear "non-sectarian". Of course you know that the islamic "foot-bath" thing was to keep those feet from stinking up another muslim nose during prayers. I'm thinking an "ass-bath" would have been more appropriate and more generally applicable. Reality is just the middle way between birth and death. If you're not used to it by now, you may never be. After the commercial, I think I'll spend 100 milliseconds thinking about the billions who died unenlightened and without "knowing jesus". (I don't capitalize those nouns because they're not proper.) From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Aug 22 17:18:10 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed Aug 22 17:18:15 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] An arresting story about Myanmar In-Reply-To: References: <200708221031.43436.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <1187824690.14013.52.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2007-08-22 at 18:14 -0400, Chan Fu wrote: > Will it baffle you when state-supported religion becomes de-rigeur > here? Actually, it would take me very much by surprise. I think there would be assassinations and revolutions before the separation of church and state were obliterated. It would be easier to outlaw guns than to overthrow the first amendment. > Look at > Sri Lanka or Thailand. Buddhism in Asia has become indistinguishable > from christian or islamic purity and prudity. I keep telling my students (who are usually uncritically enamored of Buddhism) that Buddhism is quite a bit more in sympathy with Southern Baptism than with the creaky-jointed joint-smokers who have embraced Buddhism during the past few decades. > Our universities are folding like dominoes in their eagerness to appear > "non-sectarian". Of course you know that the islamic "foot-bath" > thing was to keep those feet from stinking up another muslim nose > during prayers. I like the idea of foot baths. I think they should be required of all students. But then I think all students should remove their shoes before entering the classroom. And I think they should be quietly meditating before class instead of chatting and sending text messages on their goddamn cell phones. Thank God, I retire soon. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From bseidner at earthlink.net Wed Aug 22 19:14:03 2007 From: bseidner at earthlink.net (Bruce G. Seidner, Ph.D.) Date: Wed Aug 22 19:14:07 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] An arresting story about Myanmar Message-ID: <11113578.1187831643930.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Oh-My-God, Richard, Do not go gentle into that good night... We had a field day for the head yesterday, a day called "Life of Mind" to introduce entering freshman at the University of Tennessee to the academy. Whatever thousand of them were split up into x sections led by volunteer faculty. They were required to read Norman Cantor's In the Wake of the Plague: The Black Death and the World It Made. It was our one shot at introducing the radical idea that this was not a trade school or a mating service. It is a UNIVERSITY. I only teach doctoral candidates and walking into a big classroom with undifferentiated squamous cell entering freshman was like walking into the bar in Star Wars. They are of every size and description, from the ten directions and the three times. Not a smelly foot or a Britney Spears ring tone phone among them. I was likely the only one in the room dedicating the merit, but they lit up as I explained and encouraged views and truths to emerge. Hang in old man, you are an exasperation, I mean, inspiration. Bruce not that far behind you Seidner -----Original Message----- >From: Richard Hayes >Sent: Aug 22, 2007 7:18 PM >To: Buddhist discussion forum >Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] An arresting story about Myanmar > >> >I like the idea of foot baths. I think they should be required of all >students. But then I think all students should remove their shoes before >entering the classroom. And I think they should be quietly meditating >before class instead of chatting and sending text messages on their >goddamn cell phones. Thank God, I retire soon. > >-- >Richard Hayes >Department of Philosophy >University of New Mexico > Bruce G. Seidner, Ph.D. 1111 Northshore Drive Clinical & Forensic Psychology Ste S-490 Family Mediation Knoxville, TN 37919 865.584.0171 office 865.584.0174 fax bseidner@earthlink.net ********************************************************************** The information transmitted is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. ********************************************************************** From chanfu at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 15:27:58 2007 From: chanfu at gmail.com (Chan Fu) Date: Thu Aug 23 15:28:04 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] An arresting story about Myanmar In-Reply-To: <1187824690.14013.52.camel@localhost> References: <200708221031.43436.rhayes@unm.edu> <1187824690.14013.52.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On 8/22/07, Richard Hayes wrote: > On Wed, 2007-08-22 at 18:14 -0400, Chan Fu wrote: > > > Will it baffle you when state-supported religion becomes de-rigeur > > here? > > Actually, it would take me very much by surprise. I think there would be > assassinations and revolutions before the separation of church and state > were obliterated. It would be easier to outlaw guns than to overthrow > the first amendment. "Guns don't kill people; people kill people." You may as well be afraid of ball-point pens (which are quite scary in the wrong hands - just like computers). Granted you live in a very astronomically beautiful part of the Extended Sahara (soon to include and surprise other areas), but if you haven't gotten the clues about constitutional collapse, perhaps you've been busy watching public television. > > Look at > > Sri Lanka or Thailand. Buddhism in Asia has become indistinguishable > > from christian or islamic purity and prudity. > > I keep telling my students (who are usually uncritically enamored of > Buddhism) that Buddhism is quite a bit more in sympathy with Southern > Baptism than with the creaky-jointed joint-smokers who have embraced > Buddhism during the past few decades. :) It's surely enough so that I've stopped capitalizing the "-ism" nouns. My sisters-in-law in Thailand were captured by the "Wat Dhammakaya" cult. Except for the youngest one, whose PhD Thesis I supervised, they turned into the most cranky evangelical witches I could imagine (well, in a "buddhist" context, anyway). > > Our universities are folding like dominoes in their eagerness to appear > > "non-sectarian". Of course you know that the islamic "foot-bath" > > thing was to keep those feet from stinking up another muslim nose > > during prayers. > > I like the idea of foot baths. I think they should be required of all > students. But then I think all students should remove their shoes before > entering the classroom. And I think they should be quietly meditating > before class instead of chatting and sending text messages on their > goddamn cell phones. Thank God, I retire soon. Good luck. I'm more in favor of brainwashing. The concept is old, true; but a nice "phone booth" technology needs to be worked out - along the lines of the "intelligent decision zapper for TSA employees", perhaps. Personally (and maybe Susan will agree with me - I haven't asked her yet), I think that many of the "ADD", "ADHD", etc., etc. "disorders" have someting to do with being born and raised in and by the Memedia (my word, eternal copyright, don't even *think* about stealing it!). I'd rather fund a new college (can't afford a university - too many departments and one of them would have to be "religious studies" to get any GWB bible aid) - than have you retire entirely. Actually I doubt you really will. Vic (Stenger) really didn't and Dawkins certainly won't. It would be nice to have you around to critically examine Buddhism as a "religion" for a very long time. OMFG! (that's one "fukkin' " more than Seider managed ;) We're actually having a reasonably human conversation on buddha_l. How odd... Regards to all, rj ps, Hello, Bruce - apollo (that's Nabokov speak) for not noticing you previously, but perhaps you haven't said much. Good luck with a "University" in (ahem) Tennesee. My sister-in-law and neice live in Nashville - they and theirs provide me with local evidence. What subject do you teach those "doctoral candidates", if I may ask? I didn't like Cantor, btw - not enough evidence of the church's opportunism and rise to power via superstition. Reminds me of Teresa in India, somewhat. From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Thu Aug 23 17:40:29 2007 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Thu Aug 23 17:40:35 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] neuroscience: neural plasticity In-Reply-To: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Michael et al., Some months ago, Michael Paris sent us a favorable review of Begley's _Change Your Mind, Train Your Brain_. In it Michael wrote, > Moving to a close, chapter Eight focuses on the work of social > psychologist Philip Shaver in some detail. Shaver searches for means > "to enhance compassion and altruism in the real world." In support of > Shaver, sociology's Attachment Theory is surveyed in some detail. Do you mean *psychology's* attachment theory, Michael? I'm familiar with attachment theory, arising out of John Bowlby's work and continuing with the work of Mary Ainsworth and various others. Folks like Peter Fonagy are now working to link attachment theory with neuropsychology and neurophysiology. I believe such work provides perhaps the only current scientifically significant (meaning falsifiable) linking of depth psychology and neurology. But perhaps there's something called "attachment theory" in sociology as well. Franz From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Thu Aug 23 17:51:43 2007 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Thu Aug 23 17:51:49 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness In-Reply-To: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Colleagues, I've been thinking seriously about the dissolution of consciousness at the death of the brain. Bad Buddhist that I am, the prospect fails to cheer me. So I've taken to wondering what the Buddhist tradition might have to say about the notion of non-local consciousness. (Buddhism lacking an atta or jiva, non-local consciousness seems the only way around the end of consciousness once that consciousness's body dies.) The Chan/Zen tradition just doesn't go for it. Certainly the Tibetan tradition speaks of "mind" as pervasive, but such notions have always seemed fuzzy and faintly unsavory to me. I'm also curious as to the current status of the idea of continuing consciousness after brain death in neuropsychology. (And by that I do NOT mean that neuropsychology is now brain dead; I'm just too lazy to move my dangling preposition.) Curiously, Franz From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Aug 23 18:16:47 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu Aug 23 18:17:14 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000b01c7e5e4$1670e4b0$c0339c04@Dan> Franz, In the Yogacara tradition -- reflecting a certain take on some of the abhidharmic thinking that preceded it -- Asanga develops (from passages in the Sandhinirmocana Sutra) the idea that three things are always found together: consciousness, heat, and the life-force (jiviitendriya). Hence, explains Asanga, when one dies, consciousness (i.e., the alaya-vijnana) gradually withdraws from the body, which is why our senses dull and we have sensation of coldness (that's a sign the consciousness-heat-jiviitendriya are withdrawing). He even moralizes it -- so that whether the coldness begins in the head and works its way down to the heart, or progresses up from the feet, depends on whether one's karma is primarily bad or good, respectively. Here is my (partial) translation of this section from the Yogacarabhumi. The Cheng weishilun develops some of these ideas in greater detail. I probably don't need to point out that none of this is the sort of idealism everyone imagines Yogacara to be -- the physical body, physical causes, etc., are taken quite seriously. Other Buddhist schools, of course, may provide alternate accounts (though what I have seen of the Tibetan materials on D&D, they seem to take this material as a base on which to build). Dan Lusthaus [Translation: from the Mano-bhumi section] What is death (dying)? Due to [reaching] the limit of your amount of lifespan, [you] subsequently arrive at death. This again has 3 types: these are 1) because of the exhaustion of lifespan; 2) due to exhausting previous karma (? = fortuitous or nonfortuitous sa?sk?ras); 3) due to inescapable (unavoidable) imbalance (?????). You should know again at this time untimely death sometimes is from (?) a good mind (ku?ala citta), sometimes from a not-good mind (aku?ala citta), and sometimes from a karmically neutral mind (??? avy?kta-citta). What is ?death because of exhaustion of lifespan?? That is dying as soon as one has experienced the completion of the sum of one?s lifespan. This is called a timely death. What is death due to exhausting previous karma (?)? It is when one?s inherited [karma] runs out (?). What is death because of an inescapable (unavoidable) imbalance (???? ?)? As the World Honored One said: There are nine causes and conditions for which you die not having exhausted your [full] lifespan. What are these nine? These are: 1) eating improper amounts; 2) eating improper foods; 3) eating before having digested the previous meal; 4) ???? (dry heaves ? an impulse to throw up, but not actually vomiting); 5) ???? (constipation?); 6) not near a doctor or herbs [when ill]; 7) not knowing what is harmful or beneficial for yourself; 8 & 9) overindulgence in un-brahmacarya activities at improper times and in improper amounts. These are called untimely deaths. What is ?dying with a wholesome mind?? As to this when you are about to die, you self-recollect previous times when you practiced wholesome dharmas and this may leads to other memories. From these causes and conditions, at this time confidence (faith) and other wholesome dharmas appear in the mind, including the appearance of coarse (dust) thoughts. If subtle (refined thoughts) appear at that time, wholesome mind is neutral (?, upek?a). Only the karmically neutral mind (???) abides. Why? At that time you do not remember the previous wholesome [habits]. These also are unable to lead to [further] memories. What is dying with an unwholesome mind? As to this, when one is about to die, he recollects all the previous unwholesome dharmas, and this may lead to other memories. At that time, greed, delusion, and other such unwholesome dharmas appear in the mind, including the appearance of coarse (dust) and subtle (refined) thoughts [and so forth], as was explained previously about the wholesome mind. Furthermore, when a wholesome mind dies, death is blissful. When about to die, no extreme pain oppresses the body. When an unwholesome mind dies, death is painful and vexatious. When about to die, serious pain oppresses the body. Again when a wholesome mind dies, it does not see confusing forms. When an unwholesome mind dies, one sees confusing forms. So what is dying with a karmically neutral mind? This refers [either] to he who acts wholesomely or unwholesomely or he who does not act. When about to die he unable to remember and there are no other [subsequent] memories. At that time, the death of the 'neither a wholesome mind nor an unwholesome mind' is neither a blissful nor a painful and vexatious death. Again, the pudgala (person) who acts wholesomely and unwholesomely, when about to die, naturally/spontaneously remembers the wholesome and unwholesome [dharmas] which were previously cultivated. Perhaps this leads to other recollections. At this time, his mind tends to [karmically] record those of his repeated habits which were most dominant. The rest are entirely forgotten. He who is equanimous in all his actions/habits, at that time, after his initial memory, perhaps there are other memories. Only this does not get cut off nor does it give rise to other mind [thoughts]. At this time, because of two types of additional power {???}, subsequently life ends. This means 1) the additional power {???} of attachment to pleasure and prapa?ca; and 2) the additional power of pure and impure karma. When one has fully received the fruit brought about by previous karma, those who act with unwholesome karma, when about to die, experience (?) previous characteristics of the undesirable fruits attained from the unwholesome karma of former actions?like in a dream seeing innumerable types of forms of monstrous mutations. Based on these characteristics, the Bhagavan said: If you have done bad, unwholesome karma which has already reached maturity (?), at that time, like the shadows [descending] on the mountain peaks at the end of the day, [at first only] the cliffs are covered {??}, then everywhere is covered {??}, and [finally everything is] utterly covered [with darkness] {??}. You should know that such a pudgala goes from brightness to darkness (??? ?). If, having exhausted the fruits received from previous unwholesome karma, you cultivate wholesome [karma], contrary to the previous example, you should know that such a pudgala goes from darkness to brightness. The difference between these two, is that when you are about to die, it is like in a dream seeing innumerable types of forms of non-monstrous mutations and one can expect a corresponding birth. If you are one who does the worst unwholesome karma, because you see these (?) characteristics of monstrous mutations, you sweat, your hair stands on edge, your hands and feet thrash uncontrollably, you loose control of your bowels and bladder, you flail wildly at the empty air, your eyes roll upwards and froth at the mouth. At that time, you will have a birth corresponding (?) to these monsters. One who has performed [only] mediocre unwholesome karma, at that time, the characteristics of the monstrous mutations sometimes exist and sometimes do not exist (????). When sentient beings are about to die, but before they have fallen into a coma, the self-love which they have cultivated for a long time appears. Because of its power, one says [with alarm], ?I will cease to exist!? This causes love for his body; from this he creates the recompense of a new life. At the moment of the passing of the previous fruit to the coming of the future fruit, self love again re-appears. At [this transition point?], if by repeatedly investigating and searching, by the power of wisdom he can control and not attach [to the self and body], just like a strong warrior is able to control and suppress a frail weakling in a wrestling match You should know that the principle of the middle way is like this. Should the fruit not return, at this time, the self-love does not reappear. Further, the dispersal of limbs and joints {???} occurs in all the realms in which one is born, except in the heavens and hells (Naraka). Further, there are two types: heavy (serious) and light. Heavy (serious) refers to those who perform unwholesome karma; light refers to those who perform wholesome karma. The Northern Continent (Uttarakuru) is all light. Further, those who die in the form realm all possess all the faculties. When one dies in the desire realm, some possess all the faculties and some do not, depending on the faculties [already possessed.] Dying a pure and liberated death is called a regulated and wholesome {??} death. Dying a pure and unliberated death is called an unregulated wholesome death. Further, when one who has performed bad karma is about to die, the consciousness abandons from the upper portion [of the body]. That is, cold sensation begins in the upper portion and gradually abandons {} until reaching the heart. For those who performed wholesome karma, consciousness abandons from the lower part [of the body.] That is, cold sensation begins in the lower portion and gradually abandons until reaching the heart. You should know that the subsequent consciousness only abandons from the heart. >From this the cold sensation fully [reaches the entire body.] From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Thu Aug 23 20:07:17 2007 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu Aug 23 20:01:37 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000b01c7e5e4$1670e4b0$c0339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <044701c7e5f3$7f64baf0$41467257@zen> Dear Dan, Just a few corrections and clarifications to your useful post: > 3) due to inescapable (unavoidable) imbalance (?????). This, of course, refers to humoral imbalance (vi.sama). Your "inescapable" should be "not shunned / not avoided" (aparih?rata). In other words, humoral imbalances that ARE avoidable, but which one induces because one does not shun the causes. > 4) ???? (dry heaves ? an impulse to throw up, but not actually > vomiting) No. Here ? is "?ma" (raw, undigested). Xuanzang seems to have misunderstood the meaning anyway: it is clear from the Sanskrit and Tibetan that the sense is "not retaining raw/undigested food" -- quite the opposite ! > 5) ???? (constipation?) yes, this is constipation, literally "retaining what has been digested". > At this time, because of > two types of additional power {???}, subsequently life ends. This means > 1) the additional power {???} of attachment to pleasure and prapa?ca; and > 2) the additional power of pure and impure karma. No, this is wrong ! ???? is the standard idiom that Xuanzang uses for "adhipat?-k?tv?" which really means little more than "due to, because of, on account of". The whole phrase is ???????? hetu-dvayam adhipat?-k?tv? which simply means "on account of / due to two [dominant] causes". These few items just caught my attention -- I haven't had, and probably won't have, time to check the rest of your translation for anything else which might attract comment. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Thu Aug 23 22:55:45 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu Aug 23 22:56:09 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com><000b01c7e5e4$1670e4b0$c0339c04@Dan> <044701c7e5f3$7f64baf0$41467257@zen> Message-ID: <006501c7e60b$10318ce0$c0339c04@Dan> Stephen, Thanks for the helpful comments. As you can probably surmise from the typos and misspellings, this was a quick draft, not a finalized translation, so your comments are very useful. The Mano-bhumi (especially the sections between which this extract is sandwiched) is heavily steeped in medical terminology, which drove me to the Caraka-samhita, only to discover that Asanga's terminology and lists are similar but not identical to the Caraka. A search for pre-Asanga Buddhist medical literature drew a blank (aside from the well-known but fairly sparse Vinaya passages). If anyone knows of any such literature that is extant (yes, I know about the Bower mss.) I would appreciate hearing about it. And please don't send references to Tib. medicine, since that comes much later, and is either derivative of this material or reflective of later and non-Indian medical sources (especially Islamic medicine). > > 3) due to inescapable (unavoidable) imbalance (?????). > This, of course, refers to humoral imbalance (vi.sama). Your "inescapable" > should be "not shunned / not avoided" (aparih?rata). In other words, > humoral imbalances that ARE avoidable, but which one induces because one > does not shun the causes. Good point. vi.samaaparih?rata does mean "imbalances that should be avoided." > > 4) ???? (dry heaves ? an impulse to throw up, but not actually > > vomiting) > No. Here ? is "?ma" (raw, undigested). Xuanzang seems to have misunderstood > the meaning anyway: it is clear from the Sanskrit and Tibetan that the sense > is "not retaining raw/undigested food" -- quite the opposite ! Skt: aamam na aadharati. I haven't looked at the Tibetan, but the Sanskrit is unclear. aama can mean, as you say, raw food. Or undigested food (that is one of its meanings)... it can mean unripe, uncooked, and, according to Monier-Williams: "constipation, passing hard and unhealthy excretions." What I translated (whether Xuanzang did or didn't get the sense right) is what Xuanzang wrote. ??? = "and yet doesn't vomit," which apparently is his reading of na aadharati, "not holding what was eaten." I can't quite explain Xuanzang's thinking either -- I would take the Skt to mean something like "[unhealthy] excretions from not retaining what he eats," implying diarrhea, dysentery, etc., which are the opposite of constipation. Why Xuanzang excludes vomiting, I don't know (unless he wants to suggest that these secretions are not bulemic purges, but excretions from lower down in the body, or something like that). > > 5) ???? (constipation?) > yes, this is constipation, literally "retaining what has been digested". pakvam? dhaarayati (holding on to what has reached maturity, i.e., what has reached the stage where it should be expelled). Here Xuanzang clearly indicates the dh.r root (unlike in aad-dharati above). > > At this time, because of > > two types of additional power {???}, subsequently life ends. This means > > 1) the additional power {???} of attachment to pleasure and prapa?ca; and > > 2) the additional power of pure and impure karma. > > No, this is wrong ! ???? is the standard idiom that Xuanzang uses for > "adhipat?-k?tv?" Yes, that is the phrase, but I'm not sure the rendition is so much "wrong" as overly literal (which is a way of being "wrong" is some people's eyes, I suppose). Thanks again for the comments, and if you notice any additional things, please do pass them along. cheers, Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Aug 24 00:23:37 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri Aug 24 00:24:47 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com><000b01c7e5e4$1670e4b0$c0339c04@Dan><044701c7e5f3$7f64baf0$41467257@zen> <006501c7e60b$10318ce0$c0339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <008101c7e617$62ad2860$c0339c04@Dan> Just a guess: > Skt: aamam na aadharati. Could Xuanzang have been using a ms. that read (or he took to read) udgirana (vomit, spit up) for addharana (at+dharana)? Could, in the script of his ms., an "u" be mistaken (by the scribe or Xuanzang) for "aa" and "gi" for "dh"? Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Aug 24 00:32:49 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri Aug 24 00:33:19 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com><000b01c7e5e4$1670e4b0$c0339c04@Dan><044701c7e5f3$7f64baf0$41467257@zen> <006501c7e60b$10318ce0$c0339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <008701c7e618$a434b630$c0339c04@Dan> One last thought on "vomiting" -- before we become nauseous. Perhaps Xuanzang had in mind samuddhara.na for ad-dharana, taking the "at" (food, what one "ate"), for ut-/ud- ("up, upward")? Ok, it's late at night.... Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Aug 24 01:53:47 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri Aug 24 01:54:10 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com><000b01c7e5e4$1670e4b0$c0339c04@Dan><044701c7e5f3$7f64baf0$41467257@zen><006501c7e60b$10318ce0$c0339c04@Dan> <008701c7e618$a434b630$c0339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <009901c7e623$ef5de360$c0339c04@Dan> Ok, one last vomiting reference... Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, in _Joyful Path of Good Fortune_, states the following (pp. 163-64): --- In _Pile of Jewels Sutra_ [does he mean Ratnakuta?] nine main conditions of untimely death are mentioned: (1) Eating without moderation. (2) Eating unwholesome food. (3) Eating food before having properly digested our previous meal. (4) Retaining undigested food in our stomach for a long time without eliminating. (5) Vomiting digested food. (6) Not taking the right medicine. (7) Not having appropriate skills, such as trying to swim or drive a car without knowing how to. (8) Travelling at the wrong time, such as driving through a red traffic light or jogging at noon at the height of summer in a very hot country. (9) Indulging in sex without restraint. --- I love sutras that discuss automobile safety. If one compares the fourth and fifth items listed here with the ones from the Yogacarabhumi, #4 here seems to be the opposite of "unhealthy] excretions from not retaining what he eats," and #5 involves vomiting. If we reverse 4 and 5 of the respective lists, than his #5 (Asanga's #4) involves the idea of vomiting (though Xuanzang renders "not vomiting"), and his #4 (Asanga's #5) involves constipation, though the Geshe adds the stipulation that it is "undigested" food that is not being expelled -- which is a little odd. What is interesting is that in some versions of the nine untimely causes of death, there is a reference to "vomiting" -- though our present Skt edition of the YBh Manobhumi does not have that (the Chinese does). This suggests that there may have been some reference to vomiting in Xuanzang's version of the text. Asanga, after all, does claim he is citing the words of the Buddha from a sutra, which is probably the Pile of Jewels Sutra... Don't have time now to check editions of the Ratnakuta, etc., for further info, but if anyone feels so inclined and would like to report back to us (or any additional references to these 9 untimely death causes), please do. Dan Lusthaus From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Aug 24 08:58:52 2007 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Fri Aug 24 08:59:01 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness In-Reply-To: References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46CEF22C.2020906@cola.iges.org> Ioan Culianu (aka Ioan Couliano) wrote a book titled "Out of this World: Otherworldly Journeys from Gilgamesh to Albert Einstein". Basically it is a cross-cultural guidebook to various ideas about the separability of "soul" and "body". He has quite a bit of interesting material from Asia - including specific references to Buddhist texts. He has another book which is more meaty and less popular - but on the same basic subject: "Psychanodia: A Survey of the Evidence Concerning the Ascension of the Soul and Its Relevance". In my opinion, Culianu is a fascinating guide to primary sources that might otherwise be overlooked - but his interpretations of those sources, as well as his conclusions, are, well, imaginative. - Curt Franz Metcalf wrote: > Colleagues, > > I've been thinking seriously about the dissolution of consciousness at > the death of the brain. Bad Buddhist that I am, the prospect fails to > cheer me. So I've taken to wondering what the Buddhist tradition might > have to say about the notion of non-local consciousness. (Buddhism > lacking an atta or jiva, non-local consciousness seems the only way > around the end of consciousness once that consciousness's body dies.) > The Chan/Zen tradition just doesn't go for it. Certainly the Tibetan > tradition speaks of "mind" as pervasive, but such notions have always > seemed fuzzy and faintly unsavory to me. > > I'm also curious as to the current status of the idea of continuing > consciousness after brain death in neuropsychology. (And by that I do > NOT mean that neuropsychology is now brain dead; I'm just too lazy to > move my dangling preposition.) > > Curiously, > > Franz > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From slachs at worldnet.att.net Fri Aug 24 09:16:28 2007 From: slachs at worldnet.att.net (Stuart Lachs) Date: Fri Aug 24 09:16:36 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Inducing Out-of-Body Experience References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com><000b01c7e5e4$1670e4b0$c0339c04@Dan><044701c7e5f3$7f64baf0$41467257@zen> <006501c7e60b$10318ce0$c0339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <006e01c7e661$beb46ca0$6901a8c0@Stuki> >From today's NY Times. Studies Report Inducing Out-of-Body Experience By SANDRA BLAKESLEE Published: August 24, 2007 Using virtual-reality goggles, a camera and a stick, scientists have induced out-of-body experiences ? the sensation of drifting outside of one?s own body ? in ordinary, healthy people, according to studies being published today in the journal Science. A representation of one of the scenarios that scientists used to study out-of-body experiences. When people gazed at an illusory image of themselves through the goggles and were prodded in just the right way with the stick, they felt as if they had left their bodies. The research reveals that ?the sense of having a body, of being in a bodily self,? is actually constructed from multiple sensory streams, said one expert on body and mind, Dr. Matthew M. Botvinick, an assistant professor of neuroscience at Princeton University. Usually these sensory streams, which include vision, touch, balance and the sense of where one?s body is positioned in space, work together seamlessly, Dr. Botvinick said. But when the information coming from the sensory sources does not match up, the sense of being embodied as a whole comes apart. The brain, which abhors ambiguity, then forces a decision that can, as the new experiments show, involve the sense of being in a different body. The research provides a physical explanation for phenomena usually ascribed to otherworldly influences, said Peter Brugger, a neurologist at University Hospital in Zurich, who, like Dr. Botvinick, had no role in the experiments. In what is popularly referred to as near-death experience, people who have been in the throes of severe and sudden injury or illness often report the sensation of floating over their body, looking down, hearing what is said and then, just as suddenly, finding themselves back inside their body. Out-of-body experiences have also been reported to occur during sleep paralysis, the exertion of extreme sports and intense meditation practices. The complete article can be read at http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/24/science/24body.html?ref=science From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Aug 24 09:36:32 2007 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Fri Aug 24 09:36:43 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Inducing Out-of-Body Experience In-Reply-To: <006e01c7e661$beb46ca0$6901a8c0@Stuki> References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com><000b01c7e5e4$1670e4b0$c0339c04@Dan><044701c7e5f3$7f64baf0$41467257@zen> <006501c7e60b$10318ce0$c0339c04@Dan> <006e01c7e661$beb46ca0$6901a8c0@Stuki> Message-ID: <46CEFB00.2020607@cola.iges.org> The circular logic involved here is so blatant that I wonder why it needs to be pointed out. The assumption is that OBE's are the result of a "mistake" that the brain makes - then researchers try to reproduce this "mistake". The underlying assumption is never examined. Does anyone doubt that the senses and the brain can be "fooled"? That is the only thing that this study "proves". There is absolutely no reason to assume that the experience being induced in the experimental subjects has any relationship to the phenomenon that the study claims to be investigating. - Curt Stuart Lachs wrote: >> From today's NY Times. > Studies Report Inducing Out-of-Body Experience > By SANDRA BLAKESLEE > Published: August 24, 2007 > Using virtual-reality goggles, a camera and a stick, scientists have > induced out-of-body experiences ? the sensation of drifting outside of > one?s own body ? in ordinary, healthy people, according to studies > being published today in the journal Science. > > A representation of one of the scenarios that scientists used to study > out-of-body experiences. > > When people gazed at an illusory image of themselves through the > goggles and were prodded in just the right way with the stick, they > felt as if they had left their bodies. > > The research reveals that ?the sense of having a body, of being in a > bodily self,? is actually constructed from multiple sensory streams, > said one expert on body and mind, Dr. Matthew M. Botvinick, an > assistant professor of neuroscience at Princeton University. > > Usually these sensory streams, which include vision, touch, balance > and the sense of where one?s body is positioned in space, work > together seamlessly, Dr. Botvinick said. But when the information > coming from the sensory sources does not match up, the sense of being > embodied as a whole comes apart. > > The brain, which abhors ambiguity, then forces a decision that can, as > the new experiments show, involve the sense of being in a different body. > > The research provides a physical explanation for phenomena usually > ascribed to otherworldly influences, said Peter Brugger, a neurologist > at University Hospital in Zurich, who, like Dr. Botvinick, had no role > in the experiments. In what is popularly referred to as near-death > experience, people who have been in the throes of severe and sudden > injury or illness often report the sensation of floating over their > body, looking down, hearing what is said and then, just as suddenly, > finding themselves back inside their body. > > Out-of-body experiences have also been reported to occur during sleep > paralysis, the exertion of extreme sports and intense meditation > practices. > > The complete article can be read at > > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/24/science/24body.html?ref=science > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From pvera at health.usf.edu Fri Aug 24 10:05:29 2007 From: pvera at health.usf.edu (Vera, Pedro L.) Date: Fri Aug 24 10:18:31 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Inducing Out-of-Body Experience References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com><000b01c7e5e4$1670e4b0$c0339c04@Dan><044701c7e5f3$7f64baf0$41467257@zen> <006501c7e60b$10318ce0$c0339c04@Dan> <006e01c7e661$beb46ca0$6901a8c0@Stuki> <46CEFB00.2020607@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: >The circular logic involved here is so blatant that I wonder why it >needs to be pointed out. The assumption is that OBE's are the result of >a "mistake" that the brain makes - then researchers try to reproduce >this "mistake". The underlying assumption is never examined. Does anyone >doubt that the senses and the brain can be "fooled"? That is the only >thing that this study "proves". >There is absolutely no reason to assume that the experience being >induced in the experimental subjects has any relationship to the >phenomenon that the study claims to be investigating. I have not read the full article, however, I do not see such blatant circularity in the thinking. They have managed to create these experiences using a particular methodology. The inferential leap, as you point out in your second paragraph, is that this way of creating such an experience has some relationship to other ways of creating such experiences. One way of interpreting their results is that they have managed to produce, through entirely reproducible (presumably), controllable, and explainable methods, the experiences some people relate. Therefore, one possibility is that asynchrony between the senses may explain such experiences. Whether all such experiences can be explained the same way, as you suggest, is open to further investigation. However, their explanation seems reasonable, until another one comes along. While, of course, as you say " there is absolutely no reason to assume that the experience being induced in the experimental subjects has any relationship to the phenomenon that the study claims to be investigating", there is equally absolutely no reason to suppose the other experiences (whichever one people consider "real") are different from the ones generated by the experiment. The burden of proof then falls on those claiming that there is a difference in these experiences. Best regards, Pedro From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Aug 24 10:24:13 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri Aug 24 10:24:18 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness In-Reply-To: References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1187972654.5313.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2007-08-23 at 16:51 -0700, Franz Metcalf wrote: > I've been thinking seriously about the dissolution of consciousness at > the death of the brain. Bad Buddhist that I am, the prospect fails to > cheer me. Let me outline Buddhist practice in a nutshell. 1. Imagine what for you would be the worst possible scenario. 2. Assume that what you imagined in step one is the case. 3. Accept it cheerfully and move on. For most of my life I have been unable to imagine how any kind of consciousness could possibly occur without a billion or so living neurons to support it. Any theory of consciousness that is not some form of physicalist emergentism strikes me as nothing short of insanity. Unable to imagine any plausible alternative to complete oblivion (which I assume happens gradually as one neuron after another dies within a few hours or days after oxygenated blood stops making its rounds through the body), I have taken to looking for positive ways of viewing oblivion. Buddhism helps with this enormously, since nirvana as held in Buddhism can't possibly be anything other than total loss of all consciousness, and it is held as the highest possible good. So that encourages me to look further into my own system of values for ways to look forward to my own utter and complete non-existence. Just to give one example, if Rudy Giuliani were elected president of the United States, I would find the prospect of becoming totally unaware of anything in the universe quite pleasant to contemplate. Sure, I have thought of putting in a bid to come back as a grasshopper. Grasshoppers seem to enjoy, well, hopping in the grass, and they don't seem to mind that there are human beings such as George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Alberto Gonzales and Antonin Scalia and uses of operating systems other than Linux romping around. But today my cat came walking in with a grasshopper, whose head he had skillfully pulled out, along with several inches of grasshopperly innards that came streaming out the neck as the head was pulled off. Oblivion seemed better. So I have withdrawn all thoughts of coming back as a grasshopper, or anything else that has thoughts, feelings, sensations, perceptions, dreams, fantasies, knowledge, or any other kind of awareness of any sort whatsoever. The Christians can have their rapture. I just ask that they leave my decomposing body here until it (quite unknown to me) returns completely to the soil, the air, the water and the digestive fires of countless living beings. As the Buddha said "Aho, aho, aho, how wonderful. I am food! I am food! I am food!" (What! You didn;t know that the Buddha wrote the Taittiriya Upanishad?) Now if that doesn't cheer you up, Franz, nothing will. -- Richard http://dayamati.blogspot.com From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Aug 24 10:52:00 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri Aug 24 10:52:04 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Inducing Out-of-Body Experience In-Reply-To: References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000b01c7e5e4$1670e4b0$c0339c04@Dan><044701c7e5f3$7f64baf0$41467257@zen> <006501c7e60b$10318ce0$c0339c04@Dan> <006e01c7e661$beb46ca0$6901a8c0@Stuki> <46CEFB00.2020607@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <1187974320.5313.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 12:05 -0400, Vera, Pedro L. wrote: > I have not read the full article, however, I do not see such blatant > circularity in the thinking. Neither do I. I can't even see a subtle form of circularity in the article (which I have read). I quite agree with your careful analysis, Pedro. Some years ago I had an exchange with Charles Tart, who has made a career out of studying instances of people who have had "out-of-body" experiences. He had made some claim (right here on buddha-l) that no one who has had an out-of-body experience can possible deny that consciousness is not dependent on the brain. I wrote him privately to report that when I was 19 or 20 I had an experience in which I felt as though I were rising above the bed in which I was lying. I then turned over and saw my body lying in the bed. I then went out the window of the second-story bedroom and examined the brickwork around the window and then examined some leaves decomposing in the rain gutters around the roof. It was all so vivid that I can still recall it in great detail. Professor Tart said this was a classical example of an out-of-body experience. I then told him that I do not believe that consciousness can exist independent of the brain. He then wrote back and said that mine had not been a "genuine" out-of-body experience; if it had been, then I would not be able to believe that consciousness is dependent on the brain. Now THAT, it seemed to me, was circular reasoning on his part. I pointed the circularity out to him. He never wrote back. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From pvera at health.usf.edu Fri Aug 24 10:57:28 2007 From: pvera at health.usf.edu (Vera, Pedro L.) Date: Fri Aug 24 11:00:44 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1187972654.5313.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Richard wrote: "Unable to imagine any plausible alternative to complete oblivion (which I assume happens gradually as one neuron after another dies within a few hours or days after oxygenated blood stops making its rounds through the body), I have taken to looking for positive ways of viewing oblivion." Hi Richard: Just a small point concerning the time scale involved. Neurons start dying within minutes of profound hypoxia and plenty of experimental and clinical evidence shows permanent damage if the blood flow (or oxygen) is not restarted within a few minutes. Certainly, not hours or days. Therefore, I think you will not have to wait long to find out what the experience of complete oblivion or total loss of consciousness feels like. At any rate, I would predict the change in consciousness to be precipitous (as your brain shuts down and starts dying) not a gradual loss. If you are right (and I think you are), you'll be dead and not be able to enjoy the unconsciousness/oblivion/nirvana or whatever, and worst of all you won't know that you were right (will it matter to you at that point? or does it even make sense to refer to you as "you" since you ain't no more??). If you are wrong, you spend the rest of eternity regretting your error (if the Abrahamic religions are right) or at least a few cycles of samsara trying to adopt right views (if the buddhists got it right). Best regards, Pedro From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Aug 24 11:44:01 2007 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Fri Aug 24 11:44:10 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Inducing Out-of-Body Experience In-Reply-To: References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com><000b01c7e5e4$1670e4b0$c0339c04@Dan><044701c7e5f3$7f64baf0$41467257@zen> <006501c7e60b$10318ce0$c0339c04@Dan> <006e01c7e661$beb46ca0$6901a8c0@Stuki> <46CEFB00.2020607@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <46CF18E1.2020706@cola.iges.org> >> I have not read the full article, however, I do not see such blatant circularity in the thinking. They have managed to create these experiences using a particular methodology. The inferential leap, as you point out in your second paragraph, is that this way of creating such an experience has some relationship to other ways of creating such experiences. << What the researchers are observing are NOT classic OBE's by any stretch of the imagination. They are simply observing "proprioceptive illusions" of a very obvious, trivial and predictable sort. For example: it is easy to prove that people have "optical illusions" - but such illusions do not explain religious visions - UNLESS one has already accepted the prior assumption that religions visions are nothing but optical illusions. The circular logic is simple - one must accept what the researchers are trying to prove (that OBE's are a "mistake" that the brain makes) in order for their "research" to make any sense at all. Who funds this crap - and why is the New York Times writing about it? The sad thing is that the people who slobber approvingly over this kind of pseudo-scientific blather are the same people who moan and groan about "scientific illiteracy". - Curt Vera, Pedro L. wrote: >> The circular logic involved here is so blatant that I wonder why it >> needs to be pointed out. The assumption is that OBE's are the result of >> a "mistake" that the brain makes - then researchers try to reproduce >> this "mistake". The underlying assumption is never examined. Does anyone >> doubt that the senses and the brain can be "fooled"? That is the only >> thing that this study "proves". >> > > >> There is absolutely no reason to assume that the experience being >> induced in the experimental subjects has any relationship to the >> phenomenon that the study claims to be investigating. >> > > I have not read the full article, however, I do not see such blatant circularity in the thinking. They have managed to create these experiences using a particular methodology. The inferential leap, as you point out in your second paragraph, is that this way of creating such an experience has some relationship to other ways of creating such experiences. > > One way of interpreting their results is that they have managed to produce, through entirely reproducible (presumably), controllable, and explainable methods, the experiences some people relate. Therefore, one possibility is that asynchrony between the senses may explain such experiences. Whether all such experiences can be explained the same way, as you suggest, is open to further investigation. However, their explanation seems reasonable, until another one comes along. While, of course, as you say " there is absolutely no reason to assume that the experience being > induced in the experimental subjects has any relationship to the phenomenon that the study claims to be investigating", there is equally absolutely no reason to suppose the other experiences (whichever one people consider "real") are different from the ones generated by the experiment. The burden of proof then falls on those claiming that there is a difference in these experiences. > > Best regards, > > Pedro > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Fri Aug 24 12:01:02 2007 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Fri Aug 24 12:01:12 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness In-Reply-To: <1187972654.5313.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1187972654.5313.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Richard et al., At the end of a vivid description of dukkha, you wrote > Now if that doesn't cheer you up, Franz, nothing will. Yes, precisely. I do hope to achieve a comparable equanimity to yours and find that, on my decease, "nothing" does indeed cheer me up. In the meantime, at least I have fatherhood and buddha-l and myriad Los Angeles ethnic eateries. Franz From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Fri Aug 24 12:11:03 2007 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Fri Aug 24 12:11:09 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness In-Reply-To: <46CEF22C.2020906@cola.iges.org> References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <46CEF22C.2020906@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <805fdce6a5e5ee993e511b1339d2f8fd@earthlink.net> Curt, Thanks for the reminder of Ioan's work. I'll look back into it. Incidentally, I knew Ioan. He was a young, brilliant, and genuinely fun junior professor at the Divinity School at the University of Chicago when I was there. While the facts, last I heard, are not completely known, he is likely the only academic ever to be assassinated for his politics in the United States. Happened right in Swift Hall on an otherwise lovely Spring day. Swift Hall is almost all gray stone, creamy white paint, and gothic wood paneling, but for weeks students placed the most colorful flowers in the hall outside his office door. I hope that last detail counts as Buddhist content. Franz From pvera at health.usf.edu Fri Aug 24 12:41:56 2007 From: pvera at health.usf.edu (Vera, Pedro L.) Date: Fri Aug 24 12:48:39 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Inducing Out-of-Body Experience References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com><000b01c7e5e4$1670e4b0$c0339c04@Dan><044701c7e5f3$7f64baf0$41467257@zen> <006501c7e60b$10318ce0$c0339c04@Dan> <006e01c7e661$beb46ca0$6901a8c0@Stuki> <46CEFB00.2020607@cola.iges.org> <46CF18E1.2020706@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: >What the researchers are observing are NOT classic OBE's by any stretch >of the imagination. They are simply observing "proprioceptive >illusions" of a very obvious, trivial and predictable sort. For example: >it is easy to prove that people have "optical illusions" - but such >illusions do not explain religious visions - UNLESS one has already >accepted the prior assumption that religions visions are nothing but >optical illusions. Not having had these experiences or being an expert on this field I cannot ascertain how valid are the articles' definitions of this particular problem. However, they do state clearly (I did glance at the original publications) what their operational definitions are. It appears that you disagree strongly with the model used. It happens commonly enough in science. Then it might be possible to construct better models of the experiences being used and use those models for subsequent research. >Who funds this crap There are two reports from independent laboratories (one in the UK, the other one in Switzerland) that are published in this week's issue of Science. The source of funding is listed for each article. I enclose the full citation for each report and the source of funding, since it was asked. 1) H. Henrik Ehrsson, The Experimental Induction of Out-of-Body Experiences, Science 24 August 2007: Vol. 317. no. 5841, p. 1048 The study was supported by the Wellcome Trust and the PRESENCCIA (Presence: Research Encompassing Sensory Enhancement, Neuroscience, Cerebral-Computer Interfaces, and Applications) project, a European Union-funded project under the Information Society Technologies program. H.H.E. was supported by the Human Frontier Science Program, the Swedish Medical Research Council, and the Swedish Foundation for Strategic Research. 2 )Bigna Lenggenhager, Tej Tadi, Thomas Metzinger, Olaf Blanke Video Ergo Sum: Manipulating Bodily Self-Consciousness Science 24 August 2007: Vol. 317. no. 5841, pp. 1096 - 1099 This work was supported by the Cogito Foundation, the Fondation de Famille Sandoz, the Fondation Odier, and the Swiss National Science Foundation >and why is the New York Times writing about it? I have no idea. It must have caught the attention of the Science editor, I guess. > The sad thing is that >the people who slobber approvingly over this kind of pseudo-scientific >blather are the same people who moan and groan about "scientific >illiteracy". Having glanced at the articles, I do not find them "pseudo-scientific". It is possible (although I cannot judge that) that their operational definitions are not appropriate or the best ones to use. I leave that for the experts of this particular field to decide. It did make it through the peer-review system at Science; however, as it is commonly attested, the peer-review is far from perfect. Best regards, Pedro From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Aug 24 13:02:00 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Fri Aug 24 13:02:04 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness In-Reply-To: References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1187972654.5313.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1187982120.9367.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 12:57 -0400, Vera, Pedro L. wrote: > Just a small point concerning the time scale involved. Neurons start > dying within minutes of profound hypoxia and plenty of experimental > and clinical evidence shows permanent damage if the blood flow (or > oxygen) is not restarted within a few minutes. Certainly, not hours or > days. Therefore, I think you will not have to wait long to find out > what the experience of complete oblivion or total loss of > consciousness feels like. That comes as a considerable relief. I had somehow imagined a slowly dwindling series of bad dreams, regrets, second guesses and confusion. My preference would be instantaneous non-existence, the sort that one experiences when a nuclear bomb falls on one. > If you are right (and I think you are), you'll be dead and not be able > to enjoy the unconsciousness/oblivion/nirvana or whatever, and worst > of all you won't know that you were right (will it matter to you at > that point? or does it even make sense to refer to you as "you" since > you ain't no more??). I certainly hope I am right. Not being the sort of fellow who gets much pleasure from being right anyway, not knowing that I was right will be a small price to pay for the bliss of not being there to know how blissful oblivion is. > If you are wrong, you spend the rest of eternity regretting your error > (if the Abrahamic religions are right) I think it is only Christianity and Islam who have the ridiculous idea that one is punished for an eternity for a mere lifetime's worth of sin. Although I am by no means an expert in Judaism, I have the impression that it managed to avoid forming beliefs about the afterlife. > or at least a few cycles of samsara trying to adopt right views (if > the buddhists got it right). Just between you and me, I think the Buddhists got this one wrong. Dead wrong. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From cfynn at gmx.net Fri Aug 24 14:24:21 2007 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Fri Aug 24 14:24:38 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness In-Reply-To: <1187972654.5313.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1187972654.5313.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <46CF3E75.3060302@gmx.net> Slightly tangential - there are a number of interesting musings on the Vjarayana practice of transference of consciousness from one body into another ('pho ba grong 'jug) on Dan Martin's "Tibeto Logic" blog - Chris From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Aug 24 15:18:13 2007 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Fri Aug 24 15:18:21 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness In-Reply-To: <805fdce6a5e5ee993e511b1339d2f8fd@earthlink.net> References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <46CEF22C.2020906@cola.iges.org> <805fdce6a5e5ee993e511b1339d2f8fd@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <46CF4B15.2060106@cola.iges.org> Cool! Everything I've ever heard about him (Culianu) - and what I've read by him - indicates that he was a fascinating character, and apparently a very good teacher. Are you familiar with the book about his murder - "Eros, Magic and the Murder of Professor Culianu"? There is a fascinating, and rather disturbing, article by the books author here: http://linguafranca.mirror.theinfo.org/9209/culianu.html It starts out : ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ON THE LAST MORNING OF HIS LIFE, a charismatic University of Chicago Divinity School professor named Ioan Culianu taught a class on gnosticism, the study of secret mystic sects. One of his graduate students, Alexander Arguelles, was presenting a paper to the faculty for the first time that day. "I was nervous. He said, it's nothing to fear, just a rite of passage," Arguelles recounts. "He patted me on the back and smiled." Arguelles stops. "I'Il never forget that smile." Two hours later Culianu was dead of a single .25-caliber bullet wound to the back of the head. His execution-style murder in a campus bathroom stunned the school, terrified students, and stumped the Chicago police and the FBI. Now, after sixteen months, the crime looks more and more like what Culianu's friends suspected it was all along: the first political assassination of a professor on American soil. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ One of the things I really like about Culianu's writing is he really zeros in on fundamental questions - and then he zooms back out and tries to place those fundamental questions in the broadest possible perspective. It can be positively vertigo inducing! I think that every scholar of any religion could benefit from the roller coaster ride that he provides in "Out of this World". - Curt Franz Metcalf wrote: > Curt, > > Thanks for the reminder of Ioan's work. I'll look back into it. > > Incidentally, I knew Ioan. He was a young, brilliant, and genuinely > fun junior professor at the Divinity School at the University of > Chicago when I was there. While the facts, last I heard, are not > completely known, he is likely the only academic ever to be > assassinated for his politics in the United States. Happened right in > Swift Hall on an otherwise lovely Spring day. Swift Hall is almost all > gray stone, creamy white paint, and gothic wood paneling, but for > weeks students placed the most colorful flowers in the hall outside > his office door. > > I hope that last detail counts as Buddhist content. > > Franz > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From bsimon at toad.net Fri Aug 24 17:21:57 2007 From: bsimon at toad.net (Bernie Simon) Date: Fri Aug 24 17:22:04 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Query on Non-Local Consciousness In-Reply-To: <200708241516.l7OFGnEV011561@ns1.swcp.com> References: <200708241516.l7OFGnEV011561@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <11fdb06a6cab9aca3dc7fcd992f1dd37@toad.net> On Aug 24, 2007, at 11:16 AM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Skt: aamam na aadharati. > I haven't looked at the Tibetan, but the Sanskrit is unclear. aama can > mean, > as you say, raw food. Or undigested food (that is one of its > meanings)... it > can mean unripe, uncooked, and, according to Monier-Williams: > "constipation, > passing hard and unhealthy excretions." I'm no Sanskrit scholar, but Ama plays an important role in Ayurveda. It's caused by inproperly digested food, but it's a sort of gunk that clogs up the body and is responsible for chronic disease. A lot of Ayurveda is concerned with discharging Ama through purging, enemas, tongue scraping, and other means. There's more on Ama here: http://ayurveda-foryou.com/ayurveda_principles/ama.html and you can find more by searching for "ayurveda ama". ---- Bernie Simon From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Aug 24 23:00:06 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri Aug 24 23:00:16 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Query on Non-Local Consciousness References: <200708241516.l7OFGnEV011561@ns1.swcp.com> <11fdb06a6cab9aca3dc7fcd992f1dd37@toad.net> Message-ID: <002701c7e6d4$cfbfb090$83339c04@Dan> Bernie, Thanks for the link on aama. It is described as the clogging of physical and spiritual vessels (intestines, nadis, etc.) by toxic ingested material that is not fully digested due to certain weaknesses in the body (not enough of various digestive heats, etc.). Since it involves clogging (constipation, etc.), the problem with the Skt of the YBh would be what to do with na aadharati ("not retained"), which suggests the opposite of aama (the full phrase is aamam na aadharati). Aama seems to be retension par excellence, though retension without fully digesting -- hence clogging. So if we take Xuanzang's ?? -- which normally would mean "doesn't vomit" -- as "doesn't expel," that would seem to work. That he would translate aama as ? (life, produce, arise, birth, etc.) then becomes the problem. All in all, a very perplexing passage in both languages (which, I suspect, the Tibetan attempted to gloss away). Whatever it is, it is one of the nine causes of untimely death. Dan From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Sat Aug 25 01:28:24 2007 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Sat Aug 25 01:28:31 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness In-Reply-To: <46CF4B15.2060106@cola.iges.org> References: <529138.87054.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <46CEF22C.2020906@cola.iges.org> <805fdce6a5e5ee993e511b1339d2f8fd@earthlink.net> <46CF4B15.2060106@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <8d2c5d3c85ce3dbc8d5bcd4c1a54f1a6@earthlink.net> Curt, You wrote, > Cool! Everything I've ever heard about him (Culianu) - and what I've > read by him - indicates that he was a fascinating character, and > apparently a very good teacher. Are you familiar with the book about > his murder - "Eros, Magic and the Murder of Professor Culianu"? There > is a fascinating, and rather disturbing, article by the books author > here: > http://linguafranca.mirror.theinfo.org/9209/culianu.html I would not use the adjective "cool" to describe Professor Culianu's untimely death (what kind of "imbalance" must he have had?). You are right to use "cool" to describe the man himself, though. I have read Anton's book and it is at least as disturbing and ultimately unsatisfying as the article you linked (thanks, btw). After knowing Ioan (even just slightly, as I did), nothing could satisfy me except following his career through decades of provocative and original work. Thanks to some very deluded person, that career and those insights will never happen. Sheesh, this is *not* cheering me up. I better pick up my copy of _Out of This World_ and see what *that* does. Franz From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Sat Aug 25 13:24:32 2007 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat Aug 25 13:18:48 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Query on Non-Local Consciousness References: <200708241516.l7OFGnEV011561@ns1.swcp.com><11fdb06a6cab9aca3dc7fcd992f1dd37@toad.net> <002701c7e6d4$cfbfb090$83339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <06d701c7e74d$90e17060$41467257@zen> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > That he would translate aama as ? (life, > produce, arise, birth, etc.) then becomes the problem. Dear Dan, Why ? A quick visit to any decent dictionary will tell you that "raw", "uncooked" etc is a quite common meaning of ? which thus fits aama perfectly -- I am surprised you are not aware of this. Oddly enough, the Japanese kun-yomi is "nama" -- almost aama ! Perhaps you are confused by the immediately following ? but you should also be aware that this is not used here in the normal sense it has in the classical language, conjoining two verbs. I am not sure when it started, whether pre-Sui or not -- I think Kumarajiva might use it, but ? also came to be widely used as a topic marker in Buddhist translation texts, which can be either grammatical subject, or as here, object. This use has largely gone unremarked, but I think Hanyu Dacidian mentions it. Hence, there does not seem to be anything especially problematic about this phrase. > All in all, a very perplexing passage in both languages (which, I suspect, > the Tibetan attempted to gloss away). No, the Tibetan is quite straightforward -- it translates the Sanskrit fairly literally. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 02:12:22 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun Aug 26 02:12:44 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Aama do.sa I References: <200708241516.l7OFGnEV011561@ns1.swcp.com><11fdb06a6cab9aca3dc7fcd992f1dd37@toad.net><002701c7e6d4$cfbfb090$83339c04@Dan> <06d701c7e74d$90e17060$41467257@zen> Message-ID: <000a01c7e7b8$dbe8bc10$a7339c04@Dan> Stephen, This could quickly get a bit too technical for this list, and I'm not sure how many besides us are interested, so I will try to frame this in general terms. First, aama here does *not* mean "raw" -- as Bernie indicated, it is a technical medical term. The current ayurvedic meaning derives from (but is not exactly identical with) the way it is treated in the Caraka-samhita. The problem here is not simply linguistic or something to be solved with a dictionary, but contextual and historical, namely the question of what exactly were the Buddhist medical theories of the day that are being drawn on or alluded to. As I mentioned in a previous post, aside from some fairly general Vinaya passages on the three do.sas, none of that literature is extant, so Asanga is a valuable -- and, as far as I can tell, sole -- source for this. Indian medicine changed over the centuries, and we know, from a variety of indications, that from its earliest period medicine played a key role in Buddhism. Lots of rules (such as when males and females could touch each other, whether one could eat after noon, what one could eat, etc.) were dispensible in the face of illness, and the monks and nuns typically carried medical kits (or were permitted to carry them) along with their robes and bowls. Medicine was one of the "five sciences" Buddhists studied. The only pre-Asanga Indian text we have is the Caraka, which is typically dated to somewhere around the 1st-3rd c CE, redacting materials, it is usually claimed, that have earlier roots. The CS is a stratified text -- it is also the first text to introduce pramana theory, so it is of interest to those studying the later development of the logic tradition. The pramana sections are one place that stratification is evident, as are certain medical portions that show theoretical and practical advancements from other portions. As I also mentioned, it discusses some of the same things as does Asanga in the Manobhumi, but there are always differences -- which is why if we could recover some of the Buddhist medical literature of the period, all of this would be a lot clearer. So, given the current state of the materials available to us, the best we can do is check the CS. So what is aama? CS devotes some attention to this in the Vimaanasthanaa chapter. It is too lengthy to cite in full here, but I will provide some excerpts (the translation of Sharma and Dash) to give some sense of its usage, and then return to why I still think the Skt and Ch versions of this passage is problematic. --- [7] Improper quantity of food is again of two types -- deficient in quantity and excessive in quantity.... [note the parallelism to Asanga's treatment]... Food taken in excessive quantity aggravates all the three do.sas. One who fills up his stomach with solid food and then takes liquid food in excessive quantity, all the three do.sas, viz. vaata (samaana vaayu), pitta, and kapha residing in the stomach get too much compressed and simultaneously aggravated. These aggravated do.sas affect the undigested food and get mixed up with it. Then they obstruct a part of the stomach and instantaneously move through upward and downwart tracts separately to produce the following diseases in the individual, taking food in excess: Vaata produces colic pain, constipation, malaise, dryness of mouth, fainting, giddiness, irregularity in the poser of digestion, rigidity of sides, back and waist, and contraction and hardening of vessels. Pitta causes fever, diarrhea, internal burning sensation, thirst, intoxication, giddiness and delirium. Kapha causes vomiting, anorexia, indigestion, cold fever, laziness and heaviness in the body. [8-9] In addition to the intake of food in excess, the following factors also affect the body by vitiating the undigested food product [aamado.sa]: 1. Untimely intake of food and drinks which are heavy, ununctuous [sic], cold, dry, despisable, constipative. irritant, unclean and mutually contradictory; 2. intake of food and drinks when the individual is afflicted with passion, anger, greed, confusion, envy, bashfulness, grief, indigestion, anxiety and fear... [10-11] Aamado.sa (vitiation of undigested food) is known to physicians as of two types, viz. visuucikaa (choleric diarrhea) and alasaka (intestinal torper [sic]). In visuucikaa, undigested food gets expelled through the upper and lower tracks and it is accompanied with the symptoms already described (in paragraph 7...). [the commentary, which is from centuries later (post-Santaraksita), adds] In addition to visuucikaa (choleric diarrhea) and alasaka (intestinal torpor), there are two other conditions, viz., da.n.daalasaka (intestinal torpor which brings about excessive rigidity of the body) and aamavi.sa (which produces toxicity in the body) caused by the vitiation of the undigested food. The latter two conditions... are included under alasaka... because in these two conditions also, vitiated do.sas do not come out but get retained inside the body as it happens in the case of alasaka. [returning to the main text] [12] Now we shall explain alasaka... If a weak individual, having low power of digestion and excessive kapha in his body, suppresses the urge for voiding flatus, uring and stool, and takes compact, heavy, ununctuous, cold and dried food in excessive quantity, food and drinks get affected with vaata. Simultaneously the passage gets obstructed by kapha due to excessive adhesiveness of the food product. Because of the sluggishness caused by these factors it is not possible for the undigested food product to come out of the stomach. Therefore, all the symptoms of aamado.sa (described in para-7) ***except vomiting and diarrhea*** [my emphasis] are manifested in alasak. The extremely vitiated do.sas move sidewards due to the obstruction of the passage by undigested food or immature food product, and at times, make the body of the patient rigid like a staff. ***This condition is known as da.n.daalasaka and it is incurable.*** [my emphasis] [continued in next message] From cfynn at gmx.net Sun Aug 26 07:17:02 2007 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Sun Aug 26 07:17:24 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Aama do.sa I In-Reply-To: <000a01c7e7b8$dbe8bc10$a7339c04@Dan> References: <200708241516.l7OFGnEV011561@ns1.swcp.com><11fdb06a6cab9aca3dc7fcd992f1dd37@toad.net><002701c7e6d4$cfbfb090$83339c04@Dan> <06d701c7e74d$90e17060$41467257@zen> <000a01c7e7b8$dbe8bc10$a7339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <46D17D4E.8070600@gmx.net> > Medicine was one of the "five sciences" Buddhists studied. The only > pre-Asanga Indian text we have is the Caraka, which is typically dated to > somewhere around the 1st-3rd c CE, redacting materials, it is usually > claimed, that have earlier roots. The CS is a stratified text -- it is also > the first text to introduce pramana theory, so it is of interest to those > studying the later development of the logic tradition. The pramana sections > are one place that stratification is evident, as are certain medical > portions that show theoretical and practical advancements from other > portions. > As I also mentioned, it discusses some of the same things as does Asanga in > the Manobhumi, but there are always differences -- which is why if we could > recover some of the Buddhist medical literature of the period, all of this > would be a lot clearer. So, given the current state of the materials > available to us, the best we can do is check the CS. Dan The Siddha medical system - still widely taught and practised in S. India - usually traces it's origin to the Buddhist Nagarjuna (Siddha Nagarjuna). According to a teacher I talked to from the Government Ayurvedic College in Mysore, where it is taught (alongside Ayurveda and Unani) and according to the head of the Sanskrit department of the University of Mysore, it was originally a Buddhist medical system. I don't know if it is still practised there, but I understand manuscripts connected with this tradition have also been found in Sri Lanka. Anyway this tradition might possibly be a good place to start looking for Indian Buddhist medical theories & literature... - Chris From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 09:35:37 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun Aug 26 09:36:21 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Aama do.sa II References: <200708241516.l7OFGnEV011561@ns1.swcp.com><11fdb06a6cab9aca3dc7fcd992f1dd37@toad.net><002701c7e6d4$cfbfb090$83339c04@Dan> <06d701c7e74d$90e17060$41467257@zen><000a01c7e7b8$dbe8bc10$a7339c04@Dan> <46D17D4E.8070600@gmx.net> Message-ID: <005a01c7e7f6$cbd7ff50$a7339c04@Dan> [continued from previous message] [Still quoting the Caraka-samhita] Aamado.sa of an individual given to habitual intake of incompartible [sic] food, or food before the digestion of the previous meal or ***uncooked food*** [my emphasis] is known as aamavi.sa (a condition characterised by the manifestation of toxic symptoms due to indigestion), because the manifestations of this condition resemble those of poisoning. ***This is absolutely incurable*** because of the acuteness and also because of the contradiction involved in the line of treatment of this condition. [the commentary gives an explanation of why treatment won't work] ... Treatment of the aamavi.sa condition involves contradiction, when hot therapies which correct aama are employed, they aggravate the poisoning aspect of the condition; when cooling therapies are employed in order to alleviate the poisonous aspect of the condition, they aggravate aama. Because of the specific nature of the causative factors, toxic symptoms are manifested inthis condition as it happens in the case of honey and ghee when they are combined in equal quantity. [Returning to the main text, some treatments are nonetheless prescribed] [13] The curative type of this disease having vitiated aama (undigested food product) which has become stagnant, should be treated with emesis in the beginning, by administering hot saline water. Thereafter, fomentation and suppositories should be employed and the patient should be made to fast. In the case of visuucikaa (choleric diarrhea), the patient should be kept on fasting in the beginning, and thereafter, he should be given thin gruel... Even after the digestion of the food which was responsible for the causation of aamado.sa (visuucikaa and alasaka), the do.sas remain adhered to the stomach and during the meal-time also, the patient feels timidity heaviness of the abdomen and disinclination for food... Food should never be given when there is indigestion because the agni (digestive fire) which is already weak due to the vitiation by aama will not be able to digest the do.sas, drugs and food simultaneously... The patient who is weak and whose kaayaagni (enzymes responsible for the digestive adn metabolic events in the body) is also weak will be seriously affected by the dominance of the untoward effects produced by aamaprado.sa, food and drugs simultaneously... When the patient is free from aamado.sa, when do.sas are fully matured (digested) and when the power of digestion is stimulated, the physician should employ massage.... [14] ... Other useful therapies which though not described here (but described in the chapter on the treatment of graha.nii or sprue, and atisaara or diarrhea, etc., for the cure of aamado.sa) should also be adopted. [15-18] O! Enlightened one; please tell us where different types of food, viz. eatables, chewables, drinkables and lickables get digested. Having heard this question of the disciples, viz. Agnive"sa etc., Lord Punarvasu replied, "It is in the aamaa"saya (stomach) existing between the umbilicus and nipples, that the eatables, chewables... get digested. After enterning into the stomach and getting digested there, the entire digested food product reaches all the organs of the body through the vessels. [End of quotations] So it should be evident that Asanga is not warning against eating raw food, but is describing a recognized incurable medical condition. Whether Buddhist medicine of the day parsed aama exactly as CS did -- with two (or four types) -- is uncertain... as I mentioned, CS and Asanga are often *similar* but not identical when it comes to lists and details. CS mentions two types of incurable aama-related illnesses: da.n.daalasaka and aamavi.sa. We are also told that "all the symptoms of aamado.sa *except vomiting* and diarrhea are manifested in alasak. This would suggest that Xuanzang understands Asanga to be referring to the alasaka -- or more specifically, the da.n.daalasaka form of aamado.sa, and thus specifies it as the one that "doesn't vomit." That still leaves sheng as an equivalent for aama problematic. Yes, sheng can mean "raw," but it usually only does so as a prefixed adjective in compounds -- ??, ??, ??, ??, etc., for which I take the sheng to be suggesting "initially arising, still being 'born,' not yet having reached maturity" -- and not when used solo. I am not aware of sheng on its own meaning "undigested food" or "not fully digested food." Yes, er ?, while usually a conjunction, can be used occasionally in other ways -- the function you referred (indicating an object), I think, is what I take to "an implicative result" function: X er Y. i.e., "X and so Y." This usage is not a common occurrence for Xuanzang, as I'm sure you know. If for the moment we forget about the Skt and Tib versions, and just look at the Chinese phrase on its own, then, I maintain, it does not yield a clear sense. There are ways of indicating something like aama in Chinese medical terminology, but Xuanzang did not use that. Kuiji only tells us: ????? ?????, i.e., "death by non-digestion." That is what aama means. He makes no mention of anything "raw," nor does he explain the "not vomiting" reference. Dun Lun (aka Daolun) merely repeats Kuiji verbatim. There is a tendency, when we have versions of texts in Skt, Tib and Chinese, to want to harmonize the meaning, and so try to find a way to make the ones that don't initially read like the others read like them after all, even if that requires a bit of clever linguistic manipulation and permutation. In this case, I think you may be letting the Tib. guide the way you are reading the Skt and Ch. The Skt is problematic because it says: ?mam? na ?ddharati -- the negative na undermines the meaning, since, contrary to what aama means, it states that the food (aat) is NOT being retained (dhara). As we saw from the CS, once one begins to vomit, etc., aamado.sa becomes curable. So that is simply medically wrong (again, assuming the Buddhist medical lore Asanga is drawing on conforms on this point with CS, which Xuanzang seems to assume is the case). One way to take this to the next step -- but I have some deadlines on other things that prevent me from pursuing this at the moment -- would be to find the canonical mentions of the nine untimely causes of death, such as the Pile of Jewels Sutra, especially if we can find a Sanskrit citation, and compare. It may be, e.g., that XZ was familiar with the sutra version, recognized it was different from the YBh Skt (assuming his Skt text didn't already look different from what we have today -- our mss. of the Skt YBh have lots of problems, as you know), and "corrected" it to conform to the Sutra passage. Or else, he modified/glossed it to conform to how he understood it was presently being understood in India. The nine untimely causes were, apparently, a familiar enough list that they do appear in other texts (cf. Birnbaum's Healing Buddha, ca. p. 88 or so). I just haven't located an alternate Skt version. Remember, also, that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's description of the nine included an item that mentions vomiting (though his versions is "Vomiting digested food" -- an incongruous mirror image of the aama passage) -- all of which suggests that several versions and a number of explanatory glosses have been in circulation, which may not have exactly captured what was meant in the original texts. Dan Lusthaus From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 10:20:22 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun Aug 26 10:20:48 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Aama do.sa I References: <200708241516.l7OFGnEV011561@ns1.swcp.com><11fdb06a6cab9aca3dc7fcd992f1dd37@toad.net><002701c7e6d4$cfbfb090$83339c04@Dan> <06d701c7e74d$90e17060$41467257@zen><000a01c7e7b8$dbe8bc10$a7339c04@Dan> <46D17D4E.8070600@gmx.net> Message-ID: <006201c7e7fd$0a4cdca0$a7339c04@Dan> Chris, > The Siddha medical system - still widely taught and practised in S. India - > usually traces it's origin to the Buddhist Nagarjuna (Siddha Nagarjuna). > According to a teacher I talked to from the Government Ayurvedic College in > Mysore, where it is taught (alongside Ayurveda and Unani) and according to the > head of the Sanskrit department of the University of Mysore, it was originally a > Buddhist medical system. This "Nagarjuna" is also the inventor of tantra and alchemy, and the one who retrieved the prajnaparamita sutras on the ocean bottom from the Naga king, and numerous other superfeats. There are texts, such as one called Yoga Ratna Mala, which are credited to this Nagarjuna (and the town of Nagarjunakonda received that name in modern times since it is near where he and other important Buddhists are believed to have lived in a cave temple which was never discovered and now lies under tons of water as a result of one of the many dam projects that has forced millions to evacuate their homes -- but I digress). Yoga Ratna mala is a form of folk medicine, lots of spells (for which this "Nagarjuna" is also well-known). For instance: "If the head of a black cobra and the tongue of a mad dog are kept inside the hoof of a horse and placed underground near the gate of a house, the residents of the house will go mad within seven days" (verse 11, ch. 1) [Skt version available on request] I suspect the residents might be angry because you are stinking up the neighborhood and being cruel to animals. Whatever the provenance of such material and its historical roots, it is not of much help when dealing with Asanga (who was from Gandhara -- actually Purusapura, today the militant Islamic stronghold of Peshawar -- and probably never got further south than the Ujjain area) or the Caraka-samhita. Thanks for the suggestion, though. Dan From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Sun Aug 26 13:21:27 2007 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun Aug 26 13:15:42 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Aama do.sa I References: <200708241516.l7OFGnEV011561@ns1.swcp.com><11fdb06a6cab9aca3dc7fcd992f1dd37@toad.net><002701c7e6d4$cfbfb090$83339c04@Dan><06d701c7e74d$90e17060$41467257@zen> <000a01c7e7b8$dbe8bc10$a7339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <002001c7e816$4d2603d0$d6457257@zen> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > This could quickly get a bit too technical for this list, and I'm not sure > how many besides us are interested, so I will try to frame this in general > terms. Dear Dan, I shouldn't let that worry you. After all, at one time, Buddha-L had pretensions to be a quasi-scholarly list. But thank you for the detailed CS explanation of the term. I personally find this all more interesting that much of recent Buddha-L fare -- raw or cooked. But, for my part, it's not so much a question of what "?ma" means in an ?yurvedic context -- that is not in dispute -- but how Xuanzang decided to translate the term. One can suppose that he was faced with a term which he did not fully understand in its ?yurvedic sense or else he was unable to find an appropriate parallel term from Chinese medicine. Whichever was the case, he decided to play safe and translate it as ? in its well-attested sense of "raw, uncooked, unprocessed" which is the literal meaning of ?ma outside of ?yurveda. As you know, ?yurvedic terminology for digestive and metabolic functions in general is derived from words whose primary meanings involve the processing and cooking of food -- probably because digestion was seen as an extension of the cooking process. Note that these terms are also used for the processing and smelting of metalic ores. The Tibetan translation here is a bit less opaque: "ma-zhu-ba bsags-pa 'byin-par-mi-'byed-pa" -- not ejecting accumulated undigested [matter]. This short dialogue tends to illustrate the perils of translating from Chinese without referring to the Tibetan and Sanskrit if available. But, needless to say, I think an eventual translation of that portion of the YBS should reflect the ?yurvedic sense -- even if Xuanzang has only translated things literally. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge > First, aama here does *not* mean "raw" -- as Bernie indicated, it is a > technical medical term. The current ayurvedic meaning derives from (but is > not exactly identical with) the way it is treated in the Caraka-samhita. > > The problem here is not simply linguistic or something to be solved with a > dictionary, but contextual and historical, namely the question of what > exactly were the Buddhist medical theories of the day that are being drawn > on or alluded to. From jkirk at spro.net Sun Aug 26 17:00:15 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Sun Aug 26 17:00:27 2007 Subject: FW: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness Message-ID: <000d01c7e834$ddd47420$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> "For those who performed wholesome karma, consciousness abandons from the lower part [of the body.] That is, cold sensation begins in the lower portion and gradually abandons until reaching the heart....." As I recall the text, Socrates -- dying from drinking hemlock-- became paralysed or "cold" in this way--from the feet on up. A yogachara proof that he was dying with a lot of good deeds behind him? Joanna ================================================ -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Dan Lusthaus Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 6:17 PM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness .............Further, when one who has performed bad karma is about to die, the consciousness abandons from the upper portion [of the body]. That is, cold sensation begins in the upper portion and gradually abandons {} until reaching the heart. For those who performed wholesome karma, consciousness abandons from the lower part [of the body.] That is, cold sensation begins in the lower portion and gradually abandons until reaching the heart. You should know that the subsequent consciousness only abandons from the heart. >From this the cold sensation fully [reaches the entire body.] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.8/974 - Release Date: 8/26/2007 4:34 PM From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Sun Aug 26 18:55:18 2007 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun Aug 26 18:49:30 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Rain References: <000d01c7e834$ddd47420$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <003b01c7e844$f012e9e0$d6457257@zen> Dear Joanna, How's things ? I see that you guys are getting the rains now. We've had a little let up but the temperatures have been unseasonally low. It'll be a cold winter, I suspect. On Buddha-L, have you noticed how dear Dan is again trying to wriggle out of evidence that he really doesn't read Chinese too well ? Still, what he doesn't know is that the material -- from which his earlier quote came --he has translated for the Numata Foundation will probably be vetted and edited by me anyway. Hee, hee. As for "tut tut" which you asked about a while ago, do you really not have that over there ?? It's a representation of noise of the tongue clicking on one's hard palate done to show disapproval. Not to be confused with the Afro-Caribbean equivalent, "teef kissin", which is more of a suction on the lower lip. So now you know ... Best wishes, Stephen From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Sun Aug 26 19:00:08 2007 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun Aug 26 18:54:28 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Rain References: <000d01c7e834$ddd47420$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <003b01c7e844$f012e9e0$d6457257@zen> Message-ID: <004401c7e845$9d3df7e0$d6457257@zen> Sorry, my last message was intended for private reading. My apologies if I have caused offence. Stephen Hodge From rhayes at unm.edu Sun Aug 26 20:50:37 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Sun Aug 26 20:50:44 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Rain In-Reply-To: <004401c7e845$9d3df7e0$d6457257@zen> References: <000d01c7e834$ddd47420$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <003b01c7e844$f012e9e0$d6457257@zen> <004401c7e845$9d3df7e0$d6457257@zen> Message-ID: <200708262050.37187.rhayes@unm.edu> On Sunday 26 August 2007 19:00, Stephen Hodge wrote: > Sorry, my last message was intended for private reading. > My apologies if I have caused offence. It was to prevent such potentially embarrassing gaffes that we began decided to moderate buddha-l when it was first set up. Now most people are allowed to post unmoderated, which makes everything (including inadvertent postings) go much more quickly. I am always open to reconsidering our moderation policies. Anyway who has anything to say about it can always contact me off list. As for offense, the only thing you have said lately to raise my brow was the claim (I forget the exact wording) that buddha-l once had pretensions of being quasi-scholarly. It's true that buddha-l was (really was, not only pretending to be) a scholarly list until about ten years ago, when it merged with the non-academic list known as buddhist. Now it's meant to be a discussion group for people who don't mind things occasionally getting seriously off topic and who don't mind occasional silliness and playfulness. In any event, I agree with you that your discussion with Dan is perfectly acceptable here. If people are not interested in reading it, they can delete. Que l'on continue. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From MC1 at aol.com Sun Aug 26 07:38:36 2007 From: MC1 at aol.com (MC1@aol.com) Date: Sun Aug 26 20:51:33 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] samkhya, vedanta and buddhism Message-ID: MIght any esteemed members refer me to a text or article that discusses the influence of Samkhya and\or the Upanishads on early buddhism? thanks, michael c. ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour From aklujkar at interchange.ubc.ca Sun Aug 26 21:34:54 2007 From: aklujkar at interchange.ubc.ca (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sun Aug 26 21:38:09 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] My addresses Message-ID: For those who correspond with me: Kindly note that emails sent to the address will no longer reach me. Please use either or to contact me by email. As I have retired from the University of British Columbia at the end of 2006 (I continue my association with the University as Professor Emeritus), it is more convenient for me to receive non-electronic communications, printed materials etc., at my home address: Prof./Dr. Ashok Aklujkar 5346 Opal Place Richmond, B.C. Canada V7C 5B4 Thanks. Sorry for any repetition of this message you may see on other lists. ashok aklujkar From jvriens at free.fr Mon Aug 27 07:22:50 2007 From: jvriens at free.fr (Joy Vriens) Date: Mon Aug 27 07:23:01 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] samkhya, vedanta and buddhism References: Message-ID: Hi Michael, >MIght any esteemed members refer me to a text or article that discusses the >influence of Samkhya and\or the Upanishads on early buddhism? This will be absolutely no help to you at all and is hardly related to your question but I would be interested too in such references and in what they will have to say. On what basis they say what they say and whether there will be any truth in what they say. Just to see them wriggle. After years of struggle to try and find out in my rare spare time who influenced whom, I have decided to put them all in the same bag (sounds a bit derogatory, but mine is a golden embroidered bag that I treat with respect). I am learning to read those texts for what they are. I have decided it is too complicated to read e.g. a Jain text as a Buddhist. Why should I read a text *as* a Buddhist? Why would I introduce any Buddhism between me and what I read? Am I married to it? Am I its keeper? Do I want to be a nuance hunter? I am not paid to be a guardian of the Buddhism temple, carefully carved out of the rock of (Indian) cults, philosophy, religion. I haven't been charged nor do I feel called to restaure its delimitations as soon as some of them become blurred. So when I read the Samkhya Karika, Upanishads, Yogindu, the Lankavatara etc. I forget on what territory I am, skip all the "Yes but" and I enjoy what I read. From now on when I read (preferrably territory free texts)! , I will do so without the filter of any -isms, imagining they are all talking about the same thing. Thus I hope to enter circular logic. There is no happiness outside circular logic. Quietistically yours, Joy From f-lehman at uiuc.edu Mon Aug 27 09:15:46 2007 From: f-lehman at uiuc.edu (F.K. Lehman (F.K.L. Chit Hlaing)) Date: Mon Aug 27 09:16:07 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] samkhya, vedanta and buddhism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am relieved to read Joy Vriens on this matter; in fact India was in the last millennium BC (OK, BCE) in the midst of a welter of ideas floating in common amongst different cults, sects, schools, but not unique to any of them. And Budhist monks form one sect studied in schools of other sects and, no doubt, heard Jains and Hindu Vedantist and so on. From this mother-soup of ideas of course each group choose something for especial elaboration, form which we falsely conclude that this was 'their' ideas. -- F. K. Lehman (F. K. L. Chit Hlaing) Professor Department of Anthropology University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Mon Aug 27 10:32:05 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon Aug 27 10:32:11 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Rain References: <000d01c7e834$ddd47420$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <003b01c7e844$f012e9e0$d6457257@zen> Message-ID: <007001c7e8c7$cf07a870$f2339c04@Dan> As some of you may know, Stephen has written a grammar book on Buddhist Chinese: _Reading Buddhism Through Chinese: An Introductory Grammar and Reader_ You can see it on Amazon.com at http://tinyurl.com/34ctgm and apparently a paperback version is in the works http://tinyurl.com/2rcqul I haven't seen it and don't own a copy of what I imagine is a splendid work (it currently costs $150). Perhaps Stephen might send me a copy to help improve my poor Chinese. On the other hand, the three phrases ??? 'byin par mi 'byed pa na aaddharati do not fit together very well, unless one changes the Skt from aaddharati (retains food; aat+dharati or aat+harati) to uddharati (vomits), in which case one could make a case for the different Ch (doesn't vomit) and Tib (doesn't expel) readings, at which point the Ch would be more accurate than the Tib. That the Skt is problematic is a point I made previously. OTOH, sheng, even with Stephen's ingenious "raw" reading, is still puzzling. And Joanna, it is not unlikely that a similar idea on the direction of coldness when one dies was shared by the Greeks and Indians, especially Indians in this period (remember Asanga grew up in Gandhara, the most hellenized portion of the Indian orbit). Dan From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Mon Aug 27 11:05:24 2007 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (wongwf@comp.nus.edu.sg) Date: Mon Aug 27 11:05:32 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Publishing books (was Rain) Message-ID: <2038.137.132.80.35.1188234324.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> Dan Lusthaus wrote... > As some of you may know, Stephen has written a grammar book on Buddhist > Chinese: > > _Reading Buddhism Through Chinese: An Introductory Grammar and Reader_ > I haven't seen it and don't own a copy of what I imagine is a splendid work > (it currently costs $150). Perhaps Stephen might send me a copy to help > improve my poor Chinese. May I humbly plead with scholars here that the next time they intend to publish a book, do consider a publisher that won't charge an arm and a leg for the price of the book. I am still considering whether to use my pension to acquire Richard's book on Dignaga. W.F. Wong From dharmafarer at gmail.com Mon Aug 27 11:14:56 2007 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Mon Aug 27 11:15:02 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Publishing books (was Rain) In-Reply-To: <2038.137.132.80.35.1188234324.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> References: <2038.137.132.80.35.1188234324.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: Getting them printed in China would be a good idea, seriously. Piya On 8/28/07, wongwf@comp.nus.edu.sg wrote: > > Dan Lusthaus wrote... > > > As some of you may know, Stephen has written a grammar book on Buddhist > > Chinese: > > > > _Reading Buddhism Through Chinese: An Introductory Grammar and Reader_ > > > I haven't seen it and don't own a copy of what I imagine is a splendid > work > > (it currently costs $150). Perhaps Stephen might send me a copy to help > > improve my poor Chinese. > > May I humbly plead with scholars here that the next time they intend to > publish a book, do consider a publisher that won't charge an arm and a leg > for the price of the book. I am still considering whether to use my > pension to acquire Richard's book on Dignaga. > > W.F. Wong > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Aug 27 11:27:43 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon Aug 27 11:28:01 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Publishing books (was Rain) In-Reply-To: <2038.137.132.80.35.1188234324.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> References: <2038.137.132.80.35.1188234324.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <200708271127.44017.rhayes@unm.edu> On Monday 27 August 2007 11:05, wongwf@comp.nus.edu.sg wrote: > May I humbly plead with scholars here that the next time they intend to > publish a book, do consider a publisher that won't charge an arm and a leg > for the price of the book. After my experiences publishing through Kluwer (and having to buy books that colleagues have published through Curzon, Routledge, Brill and so on, I heartily agree. The chair of my department has been urging us to consider publishing as much as possible on the Internet or at least through affordable publishers rather than going for pricey prestige. > I am still considering whether to use my > pension to acquire Richard's book on Dignaga. When I came to UNM as an untenured assistant professor a few years ago, I was treated to all the perquisites that a beginning academic gets, including a "start-up" grant for buying books. These days I have been trying to sell books rather than buy them, so I used part of the grant to buy a copy of the Dignaga book for the UNM library. I got a "bargain" copy for $250 or so. A few days after I handed the book over to a delighted librarian, who handled the book as if it were a gold brick, there was a major fire in the library. Among the volumes damaged beyond use was the book on Dignaga. So I am considering whether to use my pension to buy copies of the book for libraries that would like to have it (including the Buddhist Library in Singapore, to which I promised about a decade ago to send a copy as soon as I could afford one). Meanwhile, I'm exploring the possibility of putting out a revised and updated version of that book and publishing it either as a PDF file or through an affordable Indian publisher. -- Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From curt at cola.iges.org Mon Aug 27 12:16:25 2007 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Mon Aug 27 12:16:39 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Publishing books (was Rain) In-Reply-To: References: <2038.137.132.80.35.1188234324.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <46D314F9.2050007@cola.iges.org> Or India. - Curt Piya Tan wrote: > Getting them printed in China would be a good idea, seriously. > > Piya > > > On 8/28/07, wongwf@comp.nus.edu.sg wrote: > >> Dan Lusthaus wrote... >> >> >>> As some of you may know, Stephen has written a grammar book on Buddhist >>> Chinese: >>> >>> _Reading Buddhism Through Chinese: An Introductory Grammar and Reader_ >>> >>> I haven't seen it and don't own a copy of what I imagine is a splendid >>> >> work >> >>> (it currently costs $150). Perhaps Stephen might send me a copy to help >>> improve my poor Chinese. >>> >> May I humbly plead with scholars here that the next time they intend to >> publish a book, do consider a publisher that won't charge an arm and a leg >> for the price of the book. I am still considering whether to use my >> pension to acquire Richard's book on Dignaga. >> >> W.F. Wong >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> buddha-l mailing list >> buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >> http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >> > > > > From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Aug 27 12:16:43 2007 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard Hayes) Date: Mon Aug 27 12:16:58 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Publishing books (was Rain) In-Reply-To: References: <2038.137.132.80.35.1188234324.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <200708271216.43785.rhayes@unm.edu> On Monday 27 August 2007 11:14, Piya Tan wrote: > Getting them printed in China would be a good idea, seriously. But if a book is initially published in China, who would put out the pirated edition? -- Richard P. Hayes From mc1 at aol.com Mon Aug 27 10:27:02 2007 From: mc1 at aol.com (mc1@aol.com) Date: Mon Aug 27 13:50:44 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) Message-ID: <8C9B6DE3B8E8015-AB0-7EBE@mblk-r39.sysops.aol.com> Dear Joy, What a lovely response. Unless you object, I'll read it to my class ... with some exceptions... Every text indeed deserves its own appreciation without prejudice or bias but I'm not sure every text is entitled to its own svabhava without regard to context. That might not be your exact meaning but it is my motivation - what informed the Buddha's early on? Didn't Siddhartha conquer one of Mara's onslaughts with the aid of Indra's Vedic crew? He had help and it helps me to structure teaching with reference to contexts. That said, I too have learned to be indifferent to influences on a particular text or school of thought but only as far as my personal spirituality is concerned. I know more about Samkhya and Vedanta than Buddhism, and do not worry over being called a "pseudo-Buddhist" despite Gaudapada whirling a fire-brand just like a Sunyavadin. thanks for the 'not answer' - michael Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 15:22:50 +0200 From: "Joy Vriens" Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] samkhya, vedanta and buddhism To: "buddha-l" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;?? charset="ISO-8859-1" Hi Michael, >MIght any esteemed members refer me to a text or article that discusses the?? >influence of Samkhya and\or the Upanishads on early buddhism? This will be absolutely no help to you at all and is hardly related to your question but I would be interested too in such references and in what they will have to say. On what basis they say what they say and whether there will be any truth in what they say. Just to see them wriggle. After years of struggle to try and find out in my rare spare time who influenced whom, I have decided to put them all in the same bag (sounds a bit derogatory, but mine is a golden embroidered bag that I treat with respect). I am learning to read those texts for what they are. I have decided it is too complicated to read e.g. a Jain text as a Buddhist. Why should I read a text *as* a Buddhist? Why would I introduce any Buddhism between me and what I read? Am I married to it? Am I its keeper? Do I want to be a nuance hunter? I am not paid to be a guardian of the Buddhism temple, carefully carved out of the rock of (Indian) cults, philosophy, religion. I haven't been charged nor do I feel called to restaure its delimitations as soon as some of them become blurred. So when I read the Samkhya Karika, Upanishads, Yogindu, the Lankavatara etc. I forget on what territory I am, skip all the "Yes but" and I enjoy what I read. From now on when I read (preferrably territory free texts)! ?, I will do so without the filter of any -isms, imagining they are all talking about the same thing. Thus I hope to enter circular logic. There is no happiness outside circular logic. Quietistically yours, Joy ? Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 15:22:50 +0200 ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com From at8u at virginia.edu Mon Aug 27 14:57:41 2007 From: at8u at virginia.edu (Alberto Todeschini) Date: Mon Aug 27 14:57:46 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Publishing books (was Rain) Message-ID: <46D33AC5.5000403@virginia.edu> Richard Hayes wrote: >Meanwhile, I'm exploring the possibility of putting out a revised and updated version of that book [on DignAga] and publishing it either as a PDF file or through an affordable Indian publisher.< That would be great. Can I get you to commit yourself to doing it? (as persuasion specialists know all too well, obtaining a public commitment can be very powerful when you want to get someone to do something...) Actually, I think that you can be taken as example of the way forward in Buddhist studies: you are one of the few people to offer several articles and works in process for download on your web page. Alberto Todeschini From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Mon Aug 27 16:28:45 2007 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon Aug 27 16:23:13 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Rain / Query on Non-Local Consciousness References: <000d01c7e834$ddd47420$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><003b01c7e844$f012e9e0$d6457257@zen> <007001c7e8c7$cf07a870$f2339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <012c01c7e8f9$aa201b00$d6457257@zen> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > As some of you may know, Stephen has written a grammar book on Buddhist > Chinese: Despite Curzon's ever optimistic announcements, I am still compiling this work. I am presently finding funding to finish it off, but, even when it is finished, it is very unlikely to be published by Curzon. I have informed them that I regard the contract to be cancelled -- not least because of the ridiculous price they want to charge for it and the fact that they do not pay royalties if they can get away with it. So save yourselves the effort of looking for it or even trying to order it. Unfortunately, Dan will have to wait a little longer for remedial help, although I promise to let him be one of the first to have a coplimentary copy. Since a private message of mine referring to Dan inadvertently and embarrassingly got posted to all and sundry via the list, I feel that to be fair to Dan I should clarify my comments. As well as his published work, I have read many of Dan's messages here and elsewhere over the years. Overall, I have found him to be a stimulating, if sometimes abrasive, scholar from whom I have learnt much. I cannot speak for him, but I enjoy our occasional sparring matches, which have often been illuminating for me. From what I have seen elsewhere, I believe his knowledge of Classical Chinese is excellent, but I get the feeling that this very familiarity and skill with Classical Chinese at times impedes his understanding of Buddhist Chinese, as far as I have seen the evidence, for the latter often cannot be understood in terms of the former. My point about ? in the phrase currently under discussion is typical -- I think that Dan has still not taken this on board and this is part of the cause of his confusion. At the same time, I should stress that I do not claim to know everything about Buddhist Chinese either -- we all have room for improvement and we all make mistakes fom time to time -- even Dan, although he is normally loath to admit this. > On the other hand, the three phrases: > [?]?? > 'byin par mi byed pa > na aaddharati There is no great mystery about this at all. The Sanskrit is obviously a typo -- the printed Sanskrit edition of that section of the YBS is known for its many errors. The Sanskrit term here should be "noddharati" (na + uddharati) -- this has been noted and corrected, see Yokoyama's YBS lexicon. Having made that correction, the versions are quite congruent. The Chinese is more explicit in the context -- although the ? goes with the previous ? -- whereas the Tibetan has followed the basic meaning of the verb rather than the more specialized meaning. But to say that the Tibetan is problematic or misleading is like quibbling over the use of "vomit" versus "throw up". > aat+dharati or aat+harati I find this completely mystifying -- what word or prefix are you thinking is "?t" ? > OTOH, sheng [?], even with Stephen's ingenious "raw" reading, is still > puzzling. Only because of your insistence on making it puzzling -- there is nothing ingenious about my "raw" etc gloss. As I said, that meaning of ? is very well attested in early Chinese literature onwards. I again urge you to look at your Hanyu Dacidian or Morohashi if you are unfamilair with that meaning for confirmation -- they even provide a gloss that ? is ? ? (not ripe / uncooked / raw) and as you surely know, the very next item in the YBS list begins with ?, translating the Sanskrit "pakva" (literally: ripe, cooked, matured), the two items seemingly form a pair. You might also want to look at Ogiwara's Bon-Wa Daijiten under ?ma, which gives ? as the Chinese equivalent. And to repeat myself yet again, ?ma, outside of its specialist ?yurvedic meaning, does mean "raw, uncooked, immature, unrefined" -- there should be other people here with enough Sanskrit to confirm this. If you still cannot understand this explanation for Xunzang's translation, then I give up and leave it to others to contribute their expertise on the matter. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From jkirk at spro.net Mon Aug 27 17:34:32 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Mon Aug 27 17:34:34 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Publishing books (was Rain) In-Reply-To: <200708271216.43785.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <2038.137.132.80.35.1188234324.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> <200708271216.43785.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <004b01c7e902$d25f8430$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> On Monday 27 August 2007 11:14, Piya Tan wrote: > Getting them printed in China would be a good idea, seriously. But if a book is initially published in China, who would put out the pirated edition? -- Richard P. Hayes --------------------------- They'd pirate it in Bangladesh. Joanna No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.9/975 - Release Date: 8/26/2007 9:34 PM From twin_oceans at yahoo.com Mon Aug 27 18:35:22 2007 From: twin_oceans at yahoo.com (Katherine Masis) Date: Mon Aug 27 18:35:26 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Publishing Books (Was Rain) Message-ID: <691676.84212.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I just received this link in a newsletter from Matthew Ciolek at Australian National University Press; it might be of interest to some of you: https://dspace.anu.edu.au:8443/handle/1885/42748 Katherine Masis ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From dharmafarer at gmail.com Mon Aug 27 20:00:22 2007 From: dharmafarer at gmail.com (Piya Tan) Date: Mon Aug 27 20:00:32 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <8C9B6DE3B8E8015-AB0-7EBE@mblk-r39.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C9B6DE3B8E8015-AB0-7EBE@mblk-r39.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: May the circular logic make a break and ascend into spiral logic and beyond. Piya On 8/28/07, mc1@aol.com wrote: > > > > Dear Joy, > > What a lovely response. Unless you object, I'll read it to my class > ... with some > exceptions... > > Every text indeed deserves its own appreciation without prejudice > or bias but I'm not sure every text is entitled to its own svabhava > without regard to context. > That might not be your exact meaning but it is my motivation - what > informed the Buddha's early on? > Didn't Siddhartha conquer one of Mara's onslaughts with the aid of Indra's > Vedic crew? He had help and > it helps me to structure teaching with reference to contexts. > > That said, I too have learned to be indifferent to influences on a > particular text or school of thought but only > as far as my personal spirituality is concerned. I know more about Samkhya > and Vedanta than Buddhism, > and do not worry over being called a "pseudo-Buddhist" despite Gaudapada > whirling a fire-brand just like > a Sunyavadin. > > thanks for the 'not answer' - michael > > Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 15:22:50 +0200 > From: "Joy Vriens" > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] samkhya, vedanta and buddhism > To: "buddha-l" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain;?? charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Hi Michael, > > >MIght any esteemed members refer me to a text or article that discusses > the?? > >influence of Samkhya and\or the Upanishads on early buddhism? > > This will be absolutely no help to you at all and is hardly related to > your > question but I would be interested too in such references and in what they > will > have to say. On what basis they say what they say and whether there will > be any > truth in what they say. Just to see them wriggle. > > After years of struggle to try and find out in my rare spare time who > influenced > whom, I have decided to put them all in the same bag (sounds a bit > derogatory, > but mine is a golden embroidered bag that I treat with respect). I am > learning > to read those texts for what they are. I have decided it is too > complicated to > read e.g. a Jain text as a Buddhist. Why should I read a text *as* a > Buddhist? > Why would I introduce any Buddhism between me and what I read? Am I > married to > it? Am I its keeper? Do I want to be a nuance hunter? I am not paid to be > a > guardian of the Buddhism temple, carefully carved out of the rock of > (Indian) > cults, philosophy, religion. I haven't been charged nor do I feel called > to > restaure its delimitations as soon as some of them become blurred. So when > I > read the Samkhya Karika, Upanishads, Yogindu, the Lankavatara etc. I > forget on > what territory I am, skip all the "Yes but" and I enjoy what I read. From > now on > when I read (preferrably territory free texts)! > ?, I will do so without the filter of any -isms, imagining they are all > talking > about the same thing. Thus I hope to enter circular logic. There is no > happiness > outside circular logic. > > Quietistically yours, > > Joy > > ? > > Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 15:22:50 +0200 > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - > http://mail.aol.com > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com From cfynn at gmx.net Mon Aug 27 23:27:10 2007 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Mon Aug 27 23:27:33 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Aama do.sa I In-Reply-To: <006201c7e7fd$0a4cdca0$a7339c04@Dan> References: <200708241516.l7OFGnEV011561@ns1.swcp.com><11fdb06a6cab9aca3dc7fcd992f1dd37@toad.net><002701c7e6d4$cfbfb090$83339c04@Dan> <06d701c7e74d$90e17060$41467257@zen><000a01c7e7b8$dbe8bc10$a7339c04@Dan> <46D17D4E.8070600@gmx.net> <006201c7e7fd$0a4cdca0$a7339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <46D3B22E.9020004@gmx.net> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Chris, > >> The Siddha medical system - still widely taught and practised in S. > India - >> usually traces it's origin to the Buddhist Nagarjuna (Siddha Nagarjuna). >> According to a teacher I talked to from the Government Ayurvedic College > in >> Mysore, where it is taught (alongside Ayurveda and Unani) and according to > the >> head of the Sanskrit department of the University of Mysore, it was > originally a >> Buddhist medical system. > > This "Nagarjuna" is also the inventor of tantra and alchemy, and the one who > retrieved the prajnaparamita sutras on the ocean bottom from the Naga king, > and numerous other superfeats. Whatever the provenance of such > material and its historical roots, it is not of much help when dealing with > Asanga (who was from Gandhara -- actually Purusapura, today the militant > Islamic stronghold of Peshawar -- and probably never got further south than > the Ujjain area) or the Caraka-samhita. Thanks for the suggestion, though. > > Dan > Dan Should we geographically compartmentalise things so much? We do know South India had contacts by sea with China for a long period and I've seen theories that some of these alchemical ideas originated in China - while others suggest the origins were Indian and went the other way from S. India China. Whatever the direction - the fact that there was a flow of trade & ideas between S. India and China doesn't seem to be in much dispute. More pertinently, on the other side there was sea trade between S. India and the Arabian Gulf /Middle East - and further West for a long time. For instance from the 1st Century BCE to the 2nd Century CE (before the time of Asanga) there seems to have been very active trade between the Roman Empire and South India. I don't know since I haven't looked into it, but offhand it seems likely that there was also sea trade between the mouth of the Indus and South India during the same period. Then it would have only been up the Indus (the highway of the day) to Purushpara/Peshawar. I'm not of course trying to suggest that Asanga visited South India, but is it so far fetched to imagine that medical ideas and writings - Buddhist or otherwise - may have fairly easily circulated between the two areas prior to or during the time of Asanga? - Chris From jvriens at free.fr Tue Aug 28 00:57:20 2007 From: jvriens at free.fr (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue Aug 28 00:57:28 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] samkhya, vedanta and buddhism References: Message-ID: F. K. Lehman wrote: >And Budhist monks from one sect studied in >schools of other sects and, no doubt, heard Jains and Hindu Vedantist >and so on. Yes, I even wonder if they thought in terms of schools at all. I don't know whether the phrasing of the suttas is something to follow in that aspect, but people coming to see the Buddha don't ask after the teachings of his school, they don't seem to be bothered by the notion of a school or even a transmission. They are looking for the (path to the) absolute and for people reputed to having found it, like the two brahmins in the Tevijja sutta. I may be idealising things, but I have the impression they looked directly at what was being said rather than at whom it was said by. If something was well said in their eyes, they would adopt, adapt and improve it. I recently read a small (tibetan) text by Avadhutipa (Advayavajra) almost litterally "stolen" from the Mahabharata, only the title was Buddhist. No mention of any source. And perhaps there was no need, because many of those having studied the Mahabharata must have recognised it anyway. But that doesn't seem to be a problem. ! When reading the stories about Indian Buddhist siddhas and panditas, there are so many what *we* would call "transfugees". Coming from one religion, moving on to another, perhaps going back again. The problem with paths is that they give you the idea of following a path and being led somewhere. But as Antonio Machado said : "Caminante no hay Camino, se hace Camino al andar" (Traveler, there is no path.The path is made by walking). Of course there also have always been the "loyalists", the most universal religion in the world. They practice loyalty, no matter the religion. Joy From jvriens at free.fr Tue Aug 28 01:07:29 2007 From: jvriens at free.fr (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue Aug 28 01:07:38 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) References: Message-ID: Hi Piya >May the circular logic make a break and ascend into spiral logic and beyond. As the makers of NoLimits say: "You can create and ride any roller coaster you can dream up. There are no limits!" http://www.sharewareconnection.com/nolimits-rollercoaster-simulation.htm :-) From Margaret.Gouin at bristol.ac.uk Tue Aug 28 01:29:34 2007 From: Margaret.Gouin at bristol.ac.uk (Margaret Gouin) Date: Tue Aug 28 01:29:41 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Publishing books (was Rain) In-Reply-To: <200708271127.44017.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <2038.137.132.80.35.1188234324.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> <200708271127.44017.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <60893.88.203.57.78.1188286174.squirrel@webmail-dev.bris.ac.uk> On Mon, August 27, 2007 6:27 pm, Richard Hayes wrote: > After my experiences publishing through Kluwer (and having to buy books > that colleagues have published through Curzon, Routledge, Brill and so on, I > heartily agree. The chair of my department has been urging us to consider > publishing as much as possible on the Internet or at least through > affordable publishers rather than going for pricey prestige. There is a website called LULU (www.lulu.com) which allows authors to self-publish online; readers have the option to purchase a printed and bound copy (at a price). This might be useful as a starting model or source of ideas for academic publishing. The issue came up at the last seminar of the International Association for Tibetan Studies (2006). The IATS commits to publishing every paper presented at its seminars; the proceedings now run to somewhere in the region of 18-20 volumes, each one very expensive. The problem obviously is that there are very, very few libraries that will pay to get a complete set every three years or so. As of the last (2006) seminar, the folks at IATS still hadn't got their heads around the idea of publishing in electronic format on a DVD, although I think (hope) there's some movement in that direction. We'll see at the next seminar (2009 or 2010). Another advantage of DVD publication is the possibility of including high-quality images, not to mention video and sound. All in all, the best way to go--surely? -- Margaret Gouin PhD Candidate Centre for Buddhist Studies Department of Theology and Religious Studies University of Bristol (UK) From jvriens at free.fr Tue Aug 28 01:33:19 2007 From: jvriens at free.fr (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue Aug 28 01:33:26 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] (no subject) References: <8C9B6DE3B8E8015-AB0-7EBE@mblk-r39.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Michael, Thanks for your most flattering suggestion. >Every text indeed deserves its own appreciation without prejudice >or bias but I'm not sure every text is entitled to its own svabhava without regard to context. That would seem impossible indeed. My idea was that when I read e.g. Buddhist or Jain dohakosas (especially Yogindu) or a text like the Avadhuta Gita, it is easy to forget the context and one is only reminded of it by its ID-terminology or terminologic DNA. For me they all trying to establish one into, point one to or to bring one into contact with the absolute. The absolute may be defined and called differently, but the path leading there (basically surrender and non differentiation) is remarkably similar. The first time I stumbled on the Samkhya karika (on the Internet) I thought I was reading a Buddhist text, until I was woken up by its terminologic ADN. >That might not be your exact meaning but it is my motivation - what informed the Buddha's early on? >Didn't Siddhartha conquer one of Mara's onslaughts with the aid of Indra's Vedic crew? He had help and >it helps me to structure teaching with reference to contexts. Yes, my altruistic motivation to search for origins and influences was to balance the information in Buddhist hagiographies and Buddhist "history" and attenuate the certainties that some more triumphalistically inclined Buddhists (I have been one myself) seem to have about the origins. >That said, I too have learned to be indifferent to influences on a particular text or school of thought but only >as far as my personal spirituality is concerned. I know more about Samkhya and Vedanta than Buddhism, >and do not worry over being called a "pseudo-Buddhist" despite Gaudapada whirling a fire-brand just like >a Sunyavadin. Yes! Do you know about any research about the origin of images and metaphors in Indian culture (I haven't recovered of the virus completely yet)? It strikes me when reading various materials that some metaphors are found back in various traditions. Of course some metaphors are quite obvious and therefore universal, but others are more original and far-fetched. And if those are found in different traditions, then there may be question of one influencing the other. In a more sectarian approach, people may be very scrupulous about not adopting a specific marked terminology but they are less weary of some images and metaphors and the tradition ID they may carry and adopt them as a Troyan horse. Joy From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Aug 28 02:01:02 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue Aug 28 02:01:22 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Aama do.sa I References: <200708241516.l7OFGnEV011561@ns1.swcp.com><11fdb06a6cab9aca3dc7fcd992f1dd37@toad.net><002701c7e6d4$cfbfb090$83339c04@Dan> <06d701c7e74d$90e17060$41467257@zen><000a01c7e7b8$dbe8bc10$a7339c04@Dan> <46D17D4E.8070600@gmx.net><006201c7e7fd$0a4cdca0$a7339c04@Dan> <46D3B22E.9020004@gmx.net> Message-ID: <004501c7e949$9ac7fab0$fb369c04@Dan> Chris, > Should we geographically compartmentalise things so much? Slow down. That people moved around, especially (but not exclusively) for trade, is not in dispute. What happens when people from different cultures, or different parts of a shared culture, encounter each other and intermingle is a complex business, and doesn't entail a wholesome transference by osmosis of everything from one culture to the other. India was already engaged in trade with Solomon, so trade routes were quite early. That does not automatically entail that medical knowledge flowed through those channels as well. Medical knowledge is a special case -- a guild of highly trained and skilled practitioners, that often jealously guard their professional secrets. Some treatments for common illnesses might be transmitted, but detailed medical training -- the kind, for instance, described in Caraka-samhita, which devotes a good deal of attention to aapta (traditional authority, learning from the teacher, exposing charlatans who give legitimate doctors a bad name, etc.), is not for general distribution by businessmen. One expects with cross cultural encounters to find foreign coins, influences on art, etc. Transference of medical knowledge is something else. If the local medicine is not working well enough, there may be interest in foreign versions that seem to offer more effective treatments; if the general theory or metaphysics on which medicine rests (e.g., certain theories of physics in Greece; Samkhyan guna theory in the CS -- and, to be honest, the do.sa theory one finds in the Pali vinaya has much in common with these Samkhyan elements -- sorry, Joy!) loses favor or shifts, then alternate medical theories more in line with the new metaphysics will be embraced or developed. Pulse theory was brought to India late, most scholars think by Muslims. Chinese pulse theory did not enter India, as far as we know. When Yijing (old transcription: I-ching or I-tsing) wrote about India and the Islands around the Malaysian archipelago in the 7th c, after many years traveling and study there, he included a chapter on medicine, since, apparently, he had already studied some Chinese medicine while still in China, and was curious about the Indian counterparts. He gets the basic countours right, but fudges many details -- an indication of how hard even an earnest student of medicine (who is not a full time practicing doctor) would have integrating or even understanding foreign medicine. And that it was all still very new and exotic to him indicates how little, if at all, any of that lore had penetrated into China by that time. One of the reasons CS is considered so early -- despite generally being recognized as a stratified text (i.e., parts written at different times eventually stitched together) -- is that some important developments in Indian medicine, e.g., pulse theory, are not yet evident there. We have a general sense of how and where medical knowledge traveled through the ancient world. Our knowledge is imperfect, and there are lots of unknown and unclear details, but the basics are known. That medical traditions assign hoary antiquity to their origins with prominent figures as their patriarchs (Nagarjuna, in the case of this southern medicine; the Yellow Emperor in the case of Ch. medicine) is also a well known feature, though rarely historically reliable. Medical systems built on different theoretical foundations are not that easy to intermix. The integration of Indian medical knowledge into Chinese medicine is still only vaguely understood. Herbs and plants unavailable in one place or another will be useless as treatments. Chinese anatomical theory is quite different from the Indian version -- the understanding of organs, their functions, interrelations, etc., are all quite different. One finds many superficial similarities, but once one scratches below the surface one finds they rest on very different foundations and contexts. E.g., for some aspects of Chinese medicine that overlap our recent discussion of aama, see http://intl.elsevierhealth.com/e-books/viewbook.cfm?ID=443 (a pdf file, about 48 pp). The similarities and disparities should be obvious. The Yoga Ratna Mala contains spells -- this sort thing, in one form or another, is found everywhere, and is often a part of primitive or folk medicine. It has late vedic roots (or, one might argue, folk traditions already on the ground enter the vedic corpus late). As for Asanga, the medical lore he presents has little in common with this sort of folk tradition (though, in the non-medical portions of his texts some comparable "magical" ideas occasionally appear). On the other hand, his terminology, order of presentation, analytic style, etc., has much in common with the CS. So some shared tradition -- between Buddhists and CS-style physicians -- must have existed. As for alchemy and tantra, there is still plenty of debate on their origins. In a recent book, _Great Clarity: Daoism and Alchemy in Early Medieval China_, Fabrizio Pregadio, who has been working on these materials for many years and is probably our leading expert today, claims that what he identifies as "alchemical" texts first appear around the 3rd c. This, of course, depends on how one defines alchemy. Many scholars (e.g. Arthur Waley) have argued that it is found much earlier, for instance, in the Han Shu (1st c BCE). I know of no comparable Indian materials in this period with reliable dates. As for tantra, Sri Lanka did play a pivotal role in its transmission to China -- in the 8th and 9th centuries. When Xuanzang was in India (ca. 629-645) he wanted to travel to Sri Lanka because he heard that Yogacara was dominant there. Due to warfare and political problems, he had to abort his attempts to travel there (Sri Lanka underwent several centuries of civil war that spilled over onto the mainland). A century later, tantric missionaries came to China, either from Sri Lanka, or with tantric texts acquired in Sri Lanka; they were called in China Yogacaryas or Yogacaras, probably not because they were followers of Asanga and Vasubandhu, but because they considered their practice a kind of yoga (one wonders whether Xuanzang's informants were also dabbling in this conflation; that some form of Yogacara-type teaching existed in Sri Lanka is, however, suggested by the title of the Lankavatara Sutra). Were it not for that transmission to China, we probably would know nothing about that, since the traditional Sri Lankan histories are virtually silent on the subject. It is also curious that while the "center" of gravity for India, at least in the Indian self-image, always seemed to reside in the Central areas (Banares, Nalanda, Ujjain, Vallabhi, etc.), the greatest innovators and innovations seem to come either from the South (Nagarjuna, Bhavaviveka, Dignaga, Candrakirti, etc.) or Kashmir. They "made it," however, when their ideas and works were adopted and accepted in the "center." Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Aug 28 05:16:04 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue Aug 28 05:16:24 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Rain / Query on Non-Local Consciousness References: <000d01c7e834$ddd47420$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><003b01c7e844$f012e9e0$d6457257@zen><007001c7e8c7$cf07a870$f2339c04@Dan> <012c01c7e8f9$aa201b00$d6457257@zen> Message-ID: <00a101c7e964$d9e71530$fb369c04@Dan> Like Stephen, I enjoy and learn from our exchanges. So, in the spirit of learning more: > > na aaddharati > There is no great mystery about this at all. The Sanskrit is obviously a > typo -- the printed Sanskrit edition of that section of the YBS is known for > its many errors. The Sanskrit term here should be "noddharati" (na + > uddharati) -- this has been noted and corrected, see Yokoyama's YBS lexicon. I'm glad that I hit on the solution, and annoyed at myself for not having checked Yokoyama. > the ? goes with the previous > ? -- This is what you say. I will plainly admit that I am unaware of any cases of ? being used in the way you say. In years of reading Chinese Buddhist texts, I've either never seen it, or didn't recognize it when it was there. I perused the Chinese canon searching for such "Buddhist" usages, and can't find any. Can you provide some actual examples? >whereas the Tibetan has followed the basic meaning of the verb rather > than the more specialized meaning. But to say that the Tibetan is > problematic or misleading is like quibbling over the use of "vomit" versus > "throw up". I don't think I used those words -- I said that Xuanzang was more accurate; you prefer to call it "specialized." I've tried to insist that "vomit" needs to be part of the passage, something the Tib has obscured with the more "basic" meaning. If one is only concerned with lexical mixing and matching, the distinction makes no difference, either will do. If one is concerned to identify the medical theory at play, then the aama that doesn't vomit (as opposed to eliminating some other way) does make a difference. While you have said repeatedly that Xuanzang didn't understand the passage, I think our exchange shows that he understood it better than the Tib translators. But, to repeat what I said which started this whole thing off, the sheng for aama is still baffling (your "raw" theory is clever but not satisfying). As for the ? ? pair, you may be reading your rawness into the definitions. So, in the spirit of learning, do you have any actual examples of a passage from a Chinese (Buddhist) text which uses sheng in the sense of "raw"? Please share that. They are a well-known pair, but the sheng means someting like immature, undeveloped, or, as I noted in an earlier message, "initially arising, still being 'born,' not yet having reached maturity." Here are some actual examples from the Buddhist canon (some have the added feature of including an ? after the ?, though I think Stephen here will agree that each of these instances uses ? in its standard conjunction function: A frequent formula gives variations on this phrasing (I will let our "competent" translator translate these). The sheng here is, however, used in a compound meaning sentient being. ?????????10??????????????????????(CBETA, T31, no. 1596, p. 317, b29-c1) Here is a passage about fruit that is mature or immature, which is compared to Buddha's disciples. This is also a frequent theme: ????????17?25 ???????????????????[4]????? ????[?]????????[?]????????[?]????????[?]?? ???????????????[?]????????????????????? ???????????[5]????????[6]????????[?]???? (CBETA, T02, no. 125, p. 634, a18-24) [4]????????????????[?4-1]????????????????[? 4-2]????????????????[?4-3]????????????????[? 4-4]????????????????[?4-5]????????????????[5] ???????[6]????????????????[?6-1]?????????? ?????? In English, anyway, we wouldn't call the ? fruit "raw" -- we would say it is unripe. Raw (in the sense of uncooked) applies to both the ripe and unripe fruit. Then there is: ???????22?1 ???????????????????????????? ????????(CBETA, T25, no. 1509, p. 224, c14-15) ?????????2???????????????????????(CBETA, T15, no. 618, p. 323, b23-24) And a version of that from the Yogacarabhumi itself: ????????60????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1579, p. 633, c20) And a few more for good measure: ???????44?6 ??????????????????????(CBETA, T17, no. 721, p. 262, c15-16) ?????????????4???????????????????????? ????????????????????????????(CBETA, T39, no. 1789, p. 407, b1-3) ????????5?????????????????????(CBETA, X17, no. 323, p. 208, b6-7 // Z 1:25, p. 286, d17-18 // R25, p. 572, b17-18) ?????????1????????????????????????????? (CBETA, X55, no. 897, p. 448, a21-22 // Z 2:3, p. 319, b9-10 // R98, p. 637, b9-10) ??????55?????????????????????????????? ???(CBETA, X88, no. 1646, p. 290, a12-13 // Z 2B:22, p. 504, d4-5 // R149, p. 1008, b4-5) ??????????1???????????[10]??????????????? ??????????????????????????????(CBETA, T34, no. 1718, p. 9, c12-15) [10]????????? The usage in each of these is fairly consistent, and I wouldn't select "raw" for any of them. >Ogiwara's Bon-Wa Daijiten under ?ma, which gives ? as the Chinese > equivalent. I don't have this on hand to check, but suspect our single Yogacarabhumi passage is the sole basis on which that equivalence is made. If you are aware of any other instance in which sheng renders aama, please share that with us. Awaiting your enlightening response. Dan Lusthaus From jvriens at free.fr Tue Aug 28 05:22:54 2007 From: jvriens at free.fr (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue Aug 28 05:23:03 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Aama do.sa I References: <004501c7e949$9ac7fab0$fb369c04@Dan> Message-ID: Thanks for your as always informative messages. So when are you are going to start writing a blog? ;-) >Medical knowledge is a special case -- a guild of highly trained and skilled >practitioners, that often jealously guard their professional secrets. I don't mean to denigrate the "medical knowledge" of the past, but your descriptions raise some questions. Can we really talk about medical knowledge in a pre-science period where e.g. notions like psychosomatic disorders weren't known) ? Where would we have to draw the line between the legitimate doctors of those days and the charlatans? It's hard to imagine (and my imagination is my final judge, so please remain within its limits) for me that the majority of the people had access to those legitimate treaty writing doctors who probably only worked for courts and the higher classes. So what "doctors" did most people see if they saw any at all? And then I remember the exhibit (sorcery and healing) I mentioned earlier on this list. Those "doctors"/healers would use anything that worked or had any effect. Yes a lot of spells (and the wise Marcelle of the exhibit knew the real power didn't reside in the spells, but rather in the mind), but not only that, they would borrow and us! e anything having any power or persuasive power in any field, including the holy, the demonic and why not the practices and theories of more officially "legitimate" doctors. And perhaps the legitimate doctors were less contemptuous of charlatanish methods, providing they had some effect? Perhaps they were not exposing charlatans, but fighting rivals. In our "rationalist" world it is easy to expose a charlatan for his not complying with scientific methods, but what scientific methods could an Indian charlatan be accused of for not complying with? In a world where macrocosm, microcosm and mesocosm are considered so intermingled, not to say one, do you think the legitimate doctors managed to keep their knowledge purely medical? Joy From sfeite at adelphia.net Tue Aug 28 05:33:16 2007 From: sfeite at adelphia.net (S.A. Feite) Date: Tue Aug 28 05:33:25 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] samkhya, vedanta and buddhism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12976DC2-8222-4D33-852C-F6BB5474EAA6@adelphia.net> On Aug 28, 2007, at 2:57 AM, Joy Vriens wrote: > F. K. Lehman wrote: > >> And Budhist monks from one sect studied in >> schools of other sects and, no doubt, heard Jains and Hindu Vedantist >> and so on. > > Yes, I even wonder if they thought in terms of schools at all. I > don't know whether the phrasing of the suttas is something to > follow in that aspect, but people coming to see the Buddha don't > ask after the teachings of his school, they don't seem to be > bothered by the notion of a school or even a transmission. They are > looking for the (path to the) absolute and for people reputed to > having found it, like the two brahmins in the Tevijja sutta. I may > be idealising things, but I have the impression they looked > directly at what was being said rather than at whom it was said by. > If something was well said in their eyes, they would adopt, adapt > and improve it. I recently read a small (tibetan) text by > Avadhutipa (Advayavajra) almost litterally "stolen" from the > Mahabharata, only the title was Buddhist. No mention of any source. > And perhaps there was no need, because many of those having studied > the Mahabharata must have recognised it anyway. But that doesn't > seem to be a problem. ! And never mind that large chunks of the Mahabharata were lifted from the Parameshvara agama by the Vaishnavites. I think if we really want to see where the most "borrowing" (if one choses to see this as a cultural diffusion rather than a phenomenon of consciousness) came from, we can't ignore the Shaivites. I also think that one should expect to find little Buddhist interest in Samkhya simply because of the wide disparity in View (drsti) between dualistic Samkhya and the unity of Buddha-dharma. Alexis Sanderson has done a wonderful job of demonstrating what he believes is borrowing between the yogini-tantras and Tibetan Buddhist tantra (see his web site for these papers in PDF). However, to be fair, Dzogchen and Buddhist scholars with a interest in Zhang Zhung also pose a similar sharing, but in the opposite direction. The extinct kingdom of Zhang Zhung, centered around Mt. Kailash, sacred to the Shaivites as their land of origin, may be the origin of the Shaivite gnosis and possibly derived from ancient Bon and Kazig sources. One does find an interesting reaction however in the arising of Advaita Vedanta and the gnosis of Nagarjuna. For an intro. to this POV, check out ADVAITA TRADITION IN INDIAN PHILOSOPHY: A Study of Advaita in Buddhism, Vedanta & Kashmir Shaivism by Chandradhar Sharma. ISBN: 812081312X Steve From antonio.jardim at gmail.com Tue Aug 28 09:30:59 2007 From: antonio.jardim at gmail.com (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim) Date: Tue Aug 28 10:02:10 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Rain / Query on Non-Local Consciousness In-Reply-To: <00a101c7e964$d9e71530$fb369c04@Dan> References: <000d01c7e834$ddd47420$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> <003b01c7e844$f012e9e0$d6457257@zen> <007001c7e8c7$cf07a870$f2339c04@Dan> <012c01c7e8f9$aa201b00$d6457257@zen> <00a101c7e964$d9e71530$fb369c04@Dan> Message-ID: Dear Dan, Ogiwara's Bon-wa Daijiten relies on the famous C7/C8 early Chinese-Sanskrit Glossary, the Fan-yu Za-Ming TaishO Vol. 54, No. 2135 梵語雜名 p1235c04 : 生 阿(引)麼 aama (http://www.cbeta.org/result/normal/T54/2135_001.htm). For details on the text 梵語雜名, please see: YUYAMA Akira. "Toward a New Edition of the Fan-yu Tsa-ming of Li-yen" in Silk, J (ed.) Wisdom, Compassion, and the Search for Understanding : The Buddhist Studies Legacy of Godjin M.Nagao. Honolulu:University of Hawai'i Press. pp.397-412 HIRAKAWA Akira's Chinese-Sanskrit Dictionary also equates 生 to Ama without reference. However, to be fair, NAKAMURA Hajime's KOsetsu BukkyO Daijiten in Volume 2 p.826a-c under the entry for the character 生, the meaning of "raw"or Ama is not given amongst the 20 different Japanese definitions for this character. However, Dr Hodge is correct that the meaning of 生 for "raw/uncooked" is attested in classical Chinese. The conveniently one-volume Guhanyu Dacidian (王剑引 et al. 古汉语大词典. Shanghai, 2000 p.2076) under the 7th definition for 生 quotes a Yang Wanli (12th century) poem where 生 clearly has the sense of uncooked. Moreover, the tibetan ma-zhu(-ba) is a well-attested equivalent to sanskrit Ama. Weighing up the date of the Fan-yu Za-ming, the attestation of the meaning "raw/uncooked" for 生 and the usual fidelity of the Tibetan translation - I would have to agree with Dr Hodge's definition here. Hope that helps! Kind regards, Antonio Ferreira-Jardim UQ On 8/28/07, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Like Stephen, I enjoy and learn from our exchanges. So, in the spirit of > learning more: > > > > na aaddharati > > There is no great mystery about this at all. The Sanskrit is obviously a > > typo -- the printed Sanskrit edition of that section of the YBS is known > for > > its many errors. The Sanskrit term here should be "noddharati" (na + > > uddharati) -- this has been noted and corrected, see Yokoyama's YBS > lexicon. > > I'm glad that I hit on the solution, and annoyed at myself for not having > checked Yokoyama. > > > the 而 goes with the previous > > 生 -- > > This is what you say. I will plainly admit that I am unaware of any cases of > 而 being used in the way you say. In years of reading Chinese Buddhist > texts, I've either never seen it, or didn't recognize it when it was there. > I perused the Chinese canon searching for such "Buddhist" usages, and can't > find any. Can you provide some actual examples? > > >whereas the Tibetan has followed the basic meaning of the verb rather > > than the more specialized meaning. But to say that the Tibetan is > > problematic or misleading is like quibbling over the use of "vomit" versus > > "throw up". > > I don't think I used those words -- I said that Xuanzang was more accurate; > you prefer to call it "specialized." I've tried to insist that "vomit" needs > to be part of the passage, something the Tib has obscured with the more > "basic" meaning. If one is only concerned with lexical mixing and matching, > the distinction makes no difference, either will do. If one is concerned to > identify the medical theory at play, then the aama that doesn't vomit (as > opposed to eliminating some other way) does make a difference. While you > have said repeatedly that Xuanzang didn't understand the passage, I think > our exchange shows that he understood it better than the Tib translators. > But, to repeat what I said which started this whole thing off, the sheng for > aama is still baffling (your "raw" theory is clever but not satisfying). > > As for the 生 熟 pair, you may be reading your rawness into the > definitions. So, in the spirit of learning, do you have any actual examples > of a passage from a Chinese (Buddhist) text which uses sheng in the sense of > "raw"? Please share that. > > They are a well-known pair, but the sheng means someting like immature, > undeveloped, or, as I noted in an earlier message, "initially arising, still > being 'born,' not yet > having reached maturity." > > Here are some actual examples from the Buddhist canon (some have the added > feature of including an 而 after the 生, though I think Stephen here will > agree that each of these instances uses 而 in its standard conjunction > function: > > A frequent formula gives variations on this phrasing (I will let our > "competent" translator translate these). The sheng here is, however, used in > a compound meaning sentient being. > 《攝大乘論釋論》卷10:「未成熟眾生而成熟之。已成熟者而解脫之。」(CBETA, T31, > no. 1596, p. 317, b29-c1) > > Here is a passage about fruit that is mature or immature, which is compared > to Buddha's disciples. This is also a frequent theme: > > 《增壹阿含經》卷17〈25 四諦品〉:「爾時。世尊告諸比丘。有此四[4]果。云何為 > 四。或有[*]果生而似熟。或有[*]果熟而似生。或有[*]果熟而似熟。或有[*]果生 > 而似生。是謂。比丘。世間有此四[*]果。世間有此四人。亦復如是。云何為四。或有 > 人熟而像生。或有人生而[5]像熟。或有人生而[6]似生。或有人熟而[*]似熟。」 > (CBETA, T02, no. 125, p. 634, a18-24) > [4]果=菓【宋】*【元】*【明】*。[*4-1]果=菓【宋】*【元】*【明】*。[* > 4-2]果=菓【宋】*【元】*【明】*。[*4-3]果=菓【宋】*【元】*【明】*。[* > 4-4]果=菓【宋】*【元】*【明】*。[*4-5]果=菓【宋】*【元】*【明】*。[5] > 像=似【聖】。[6]似=像【宋】*【元】*【明】*。[*6-1]似=像【宋】*【元】 > *【明】*。 > > In English, anyway, we wouldn't call the 生 fruit "raw" -- we would say it > is unripe. Raw (in the sense of uncooked) applies to both the ripe and > unripe fruit. > > Then there is: > 《大智度論》卷22〈1 序品〉:「如菴羅果。生而似熟熟而似生。生而似生熟而似熟。 > 佛弟子亦如是。」(CBETA, T25, no. 1509, p. 224, c14-15) > > 《達摩多羅禪經》卷2:「已種生而未受名為未來生。生已熟謂為老死。」(CBETA, > T15, no. 618, p. 323, b23-24) > > And a version of that from the Yogacarabhumi itself: > 《瑜伽師地論》卷60:「非時結實時不結實生而似熟。」(CBETA, T30, no. 1579, p. > 633, c20) > > And a few more for good measure: > 正法念處經》卷44〈6 觀天品〉:「彼持戒者。以愚癡故。生而不熟。」(CBETA, T17, > no. 721, p. 262, c15-16) > > 《楞伽阿跋多羅寶經註解》卷4〈第四〉:「如但觀指而不觀物。不善修方便。則不契 > 不生不滅之理。如嬰兒食生而不食熟如是而不發狂者幾希矣。」(CBETA, T39, no. > 1789, p. 407, b1-3) > > 《楞伽經通義》卷5:「然愚夫不了觀指而不觀物食生而不食熟凡」(CBETA, X17, no. > 323, p. 208, b6-7 // Z 1:25, p. 286, d17-18 // R25, p. 572, b17-18) > > 《八識規矩頌注》卷1:「雖徧趣生。而不恒有。唯異熟心。及彼心所。是政趣生也。」 > (CBETA, X55, no. 897, p. 448, a21-22 // Z 2:3, p. 319, b9-10 // R98, p. 637, > b9-10) > > 《居士傳》卷55:「又想死人。被火所燒。焦縮在地。或熟或生。而我此身。終亦如 > 是。」(CBETA, X88, no. 1646, p. 290, a12-13 // Z 2B:22, p. 504, d4-5 // > R149, p. 1008, b4-5) > > 《妙法蓮華經文句》卷1〈序品〉:「引生為熟。[10]故迹為別不生。引熟為醍醐。故迹 > 為圓不生。而其本地住阿字門。謂一切法初不生故。若聞阿字門。」(CBETA, T34, no. > 1718, p. 9, c12-15) > [10](蘇)+故【甲】。 > > The usage in each of these is fairly consistent, and I wouldn't select "raw" > for any of them. > > >Ogiwara's Bon-Wa Daijiten under āma, which gives 生 as the Chinese > > equivalent. > > I don't have this on hand to check, but suspect our single Yogacarabhumi > passage is the sole basis on which that equivalence is made. If you are > aware of any other instance in which sheng renders aama, please share that > with us. > > Awaiting your enlightening response. > > Dan Lusthaus > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From jion at jion-ji.org Mon Aug 27 14:19:36 2007 From: jion at jion-ji.org (Jion Prosser) Date: Tue Aug 28 10:02:50 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Publishing books (was Rain) In-Reply-To: <200708271216.43785.rhayes@unm.edu> References: <2038.137.132.80.35.1188234324.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> <200708271216.43785.rhayes@unm.edu> Message-ID: <000f01c7e8e7$973598b0$6801a8c0@PC105822991410> Greetings Colleagues, As this was brought up to the Buddha-l list, I'd like to hop on board and parse your minds a bit. I'm hoping to publish two separate books, one scholastic in nature and one on a more personal front. The scholastic work will detail an English-language translation of the Japanese Tendai "shido kegyo" esoteric rites as transmitted in Japan. It's tough material and liturgical in many parts. The more personal publication is a descriptive work of what it's like to endure Japanese seminary as a non-Japanese. Should any of you have suitable (and affordable... on a personal budget with no higher-learning institution to foot the bill) alternatives for publishing (contacts too?), please do share. Kindest regards, -Rev Jion Prosser The Jiko-ji temple, California -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com [mailto:buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hayes Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 11:17 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Publishing books (was Rain) On Monday 27 August 2007 11:14, Piya Tan wrote: > Getting them printed in China would be a good idea, seriously. But if a book is initially published in China, who would put out the pirated edition? -- Richard P. Hayes _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.9/975 - Release Date: 8/26/2007 9:34 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.9/975 - Release Date: 8/26/2007 9:34 PM From jkirk at spro.net Tue Aug 28 13:50:54 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Tue Aug 28 13:50:53 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Publishing books (was Rain) In-Reply-To: <60893.88.203.57.78.1188286174.squirrel@webmail-dev.bris.ac.uk> References: <2038.137.132.80.35.1188234324.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg><200708271127.44017.rhayes@unm.edu> <60893.88.203.57.78.1188286174.squirrel@webmail-dev.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: <000001c7e9ac$bf08f330$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> ....Another advantage of DVD publication is the possibility of including high-quality images, not to mention video and sound. All in all, the best way to go--surely? -- Margaret Gouin PhD Candidate Centre for Buddhist Studies Department of Theology and Religious Studies University of Bristol (UK) ================= As someone who has published a multimedia CD-ROM of my research (a CDR because DVDs were just getting started), I whole-heartedly endorse this idea. Mine contains over 1000 images, most in color, video clips, music, and multiple texts. No print publication could possible have included what amounts to an archive of photos of a certain kind of art, covering two decades. One problem with this medium is that many people dislike reading long amonuts of text on a monitor screen as well as printing out pages of text on their home printers. However, the cost savings are so huge that eventually I think people will get over it--especially if the digital code enables them to print pages of whatever they need in print form without having to print the whole magilla. Think of the savings in trees! Joanna Kirkpatrick No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/976 - Release Date: 8/27/2007 6:20 PM From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Tue Aug 28 16:57:05 2007 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue Aug 28 16:51:20 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Rain / Query on Non-Local Consciousness References: <000d01c7e834$ddd47420$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><003b01c7e844$f012e9e0$d6457257@zen><007001c7e8c7$cf07a870$f2339c04@Dan><012c01c7e8f9$aa201b00$d6457257@zen> <00a101c7e964$d9e71530$fb369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <020401c7e9c6$c1ac9d20$d6457257@zen> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > I will plainly admit that I am unaware of any cases of > ? being used in the way you say. In years of reading Chinese Buddhist > texts, I've either never seen it, or didn't recognize it when it was > there. > I perused the Chinese canon searching for such "Buddhist" usages, and > can't > find any. Can you provide some actual examples? Dear Dan, Yes certainly, but not right now as I have more pressing matters at the moment. Besides, details of the uses of ? are probably too arcane for more than a tiny handful of folk here. > I don't think I used those words -- I said that Xuanzang was more > accurate; I've never disputed that Xuanzang's translation may be more "accurate" or specific here. On the other hand, the Tibetan seems perfectly adequate, although the normal word for "vomit" has not been used. It may be just a question of translation style, so it's difficult to say which actually captures the intended sense. As you know, the Tibetans preferred to use one standardized equivalent per Sanskrit word, regardless of the nuances. Again, one might recollect that the Tibetan translators of the YBS had several Indian pandits on hand participating in the translation work, whereas Xuanzang did not. > If one is concerned to identify the medical theory at play, then the aama > that > doesn't vomit (as opposed to eliminating some other way) does make a > difference. True, but that may not be possible. Also to complicate things for you, ? does not only mean "vomit" -- it can also mean "eject" etc. In fact, the various meanings listed for ? have a degree of overlap with the Tibetan 'byin-pa. > While you > have said repeatedly that Xuanzang didn't understand the passage, I think > our exchange shows that he understood it better than the Tib translators. No, I have not repeatedly said that Xuanzang didn't understand the passage. What I suggested was "One can suppose that he was faced with a term which he did not fully understand in its ?yurvedic sense OR ELSE else he was unable to find an appropriate parallel term from Chinese medicine." And there is no evidence that the Tibetan didn't understand the passage very well -- as I said above, it's a question of translation style. As is well-known, the Tibetans generally tend follow the literal meaning of the individual Sanskrit words, whereas Chinese translators like Xuanzang did not. > But, to repeat what I said which started this whole thing off, the sheng > for > aama is still baffling (your "raw" theory is clever but not satisfying). Another clever Lusthaus ploy ! Whenever I mentioned the meanings of aama, I always gave a range of possibilities ("raw, uncooked, immature, unrefined") to show the semantic range. You are the one who has homed in on "raw" -- I never suggested that either aama or ? should be translated thus in this case. It think it is quite obvious that Xuanzang has used ? for aama and that there is a reasonable overlap in the sematic range of these two words, apart from the specific gloss we give to the Ayurvedic term. > As for the ? ? pair, you may be reading your rawness into the > definitions. So, in the spirit of learning, do you have any actual > examples > of a passage from a Chinese (Buddhist) text which uses sheng in the sense > of > "raw"? Please share that. This is actually quite irrelevent as I have explained above. But just to satisfy you, I do not have too much time to search, but a quick look in the Bhaisajya Chapter of Mula-sarvastivadin Vinaya has this : ??????????????(1448.2c). If you want to quibble, you could say that it means "uncooked meat", but most people would say "raw meat". I have not the time to look through all the other Vinayas for other examples. One might also like to track down the Chinese Vinaya parallel for this: So s?karas?na? gantv? ?makama?sa? kh?di, ?makalohita? pivi. (Mah?vagga VI Bhesajja-kkandhako I.203) In passing, note the following from the Pali canon: ?maka-dha??asutta? (SN V.470) ?maka-ma?sa-sutta (SN V.470) ?maka-maccha-bhojino (JII.204) OK, it's not aama, but it's close enough as aamaka is functionally equivalent. Unfortunately, none of these Pali worls has a Chinese parallel, but we have here "uncooked grain", "raw / uncooked meat", "raw / uncooked fish". > Here are some actual examples from the Buddhist canon (some have the added > feature of including an ? after the ?, though I think Stephen here will > agree that each of these instances uses ? in its standard conjunction > function: Most of your examples are not very useful because, obssessed with rawness, you are trying to prove something I have not claimed. [snip] > The usage in each of these is fairly consistent, and I wouldn't select > "raw" > for any of them. Nor would I. You have set up a strawman argument and, I expect, wasted a lot of your time searching for those passages. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From cfynn at gmx.net Tue Aug 28 20:14:59 2007 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Tue Aug 28 20:15:18 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Publishing books (was Rain) In-Reply-To: <60893.88.203.57.78.1188286174.squirrel@webmail-dev.bris.ac.uk> References: <2038.137.132.80.35.1188234324.squirrel@mysoc.nus.edu.sg> <200708271127.44017.rhayes@unm.edu> <60893.88.203.57.78.1188286174.squirrel@webmail-dev.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: <46D4D6A3.9010604@gmx.net> On demand publishing is quite inexpensive. This is where the publisher stores a PDF with an on-demand-printing service. When a book is ordered the order gers re-directed or copied to the on-demand-printer who prints and binds however many copies have been ordered overnight and ships the copies direct to the customer or vendor the next morning. This is a more or less fully automated process. Although the cost of printing an individual copy may be slightly higher, this way there is no money tied up in printing 500 or a 1,000 copies and then waiting perhaps years for the majority of the books to sell with all the overhead that entails. You also avoid all the set up cost involved in offset printing (plate making along with the substantial waste of paper, and amount of time involved in getting the press set up properly for each job). There may be limitations with some services - Typically you are limited to specific page sizes, you may not be able to include colour plates and the cover design may need be fairly simple. The publisher also has sometimes have to pay a one time fee to the on demand printer for the set up for each book. All these things are changing some odp services now offer full colour, hard binding, and no set up charges. You will notice quite a number of "respectable" publishers are now using this type of service to make available books that were for years out of print. OUP for one are doing this with their back list . Some of more recent of the pricey publications from Brill and so on look to me like they were printed using On Demand Printing equiptment - if so they are pocketing a lot of cash. I formatted a couple of books for the Tibet Information Network (TIN) who publish all their books this way - these typically retail for under ?15 / $30 for a 200+ page book - and they make a profit. I can see no good reason for academic books of a similar size to cost more. If you're interested in this - check around carefully - there are now literally hundreds of on demand printers and publishers. So if you know how to use page layout software and create PDF files suitable for professional printing it is easy enough to become a publisher at very little cost and no risk using one of these services. As long as you can get ISBN numbers for your publications and get listed on Amazon you're away. The ODP takes care of printing and shipping all the orders. - Chris P.S. DVDs are not a very good idea - the life span of DVDs is *much* less than that of CDs - which we now know can have a lifespan of 25 years or so if little used and well taken care of. This is for the kind of CD burnt and lacquered at a factory- *not* the CDR's you burn in your computer which are still much better than any DVD. I've noticed DVDs often start to fail even after only a year or two of just sitting on the shelf. For important elecrtonic data I use only CDs and DAT tape. Even these should be periodically re-copied to fresh media. Margaret Gouin wrote: > On Mon, August 27, 2007 6:27 pm, Richard Hayes wrote: >> After my experiences publishing through Kluwer (and having to buy books >> that colleagues have published through Curzon, Routledge, Brill and so > on, I >> heartily agree. The chair of my department has been urging us to consider >> publishing as much as possible on the Internet or at least through >> affordable publishers rather than going for pricey prestige. > There is a website called LULU (www.lulu.com) which allows authors to > self-publish online; readers have the option to purchase a printed and > bound copy (at a price). This might be useful as a starting model or > source of ideas for academic publishing. > The issue came up at the last seminar of the International Association for > Tibetan Studies (2006). The IATS commits to publishing every paper > presented at its seminars; the proceedings now run to somewhere in the > region of 18-20 volumes, each one very expensive. The problem obviously is > that there are very, very few libraries that will pay to get a complete > set every three years or so. As of the last (2006) seminar, the folks at > IATS still hadn't got their heads around the idea of publishing in > electronic format on a DVD, although I think (hope) there's some movement > in that direction. We'll see at the next seminar (2009 or 2010). > Another advantage of DVD publication is the possibility of including > high-quality images, not to mention video and sound. > All in all, the best way to go--surely? > > From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Aug 28 22:29:55 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue Aug 28 22:30:04 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Rain / Query on Non-Local Consciousness References: <000d01c7e834$ddd47420$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><003b01c7e844$f012e9e0$d6457257@zen><007001c7e8c7$cf07a870$f2339c04@Dan><012c01c7e8f9$aa201b00$d6457257@zen><00a101c7e964$d9e71530$fb369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <005f01c7e9f5$421748b0$de339c04@Dan> Dear Antonio, Very helpful, wonderful post. Thank you. I haven't looked at those glossaries (T.2131-2136) -- with the exception of the two versions of Yijing's "1000 Words" (2133A and B) which prove occasionally helpful for Yijing's own transcriptions, especially 2133B -- for a very long time, and have thought about them more as curiosities and even fetishes rather than useful tools, but one thing they do provide is attestations for usage, when the term one is looking for happens to be included in their selective lists. That Liyan records aama as an equivalent for sheng (as well as jaata/jati) is interesting, since he is a bit later than Xuanzang. Especially since this text, and the others, are quite limited as to the range of vocabulary they cover, that aama is included suggests it was on people's mind. 唐梵兩語雙對集 T.54.2136.1242c15 repeats Liyan's gloss verbatim: 生(阿〔引〕 麼). There are some technical anomalies with how a couple of these glossary texts treat sheng (and in one case a contiguous character), but as these are technical matters and don't bear on the aama attribution directly, I'll leave that for another day. > The conveniently one-volume Guhanyu > Dacidian (王剑引 et al. 古汉语大词典. Shanghai, 2000 p.2076) under the 7th > definition for 生 quotes a Yang Wanli (12th century) poem where 生 > clearly has the sense of uncooked. I never disputed that sheng -- in compounds or in conjunction with other characters it modifies -- can mean uncooked, etc. My inquiry was to whether it carries that meaning when alone. The sense of "immature," "undeveloped," etc., does occur for sheng in isolation, as some of the examples I included showed. More specifically, my resistance to "raw" (or uncooked) in this context is that it would be misleading to understand the cause of untimely death to be the result of eating raw food. 嘔, 噯, 關格, 蓄食, 食痰, 頑痰 and 五積, etc. (especially the one associated with the spleen) are traditional Chinese medical terms that would have been viable choices for translating/glossing aama in this context. >> Hope that helps! Absolutely! Thanks. Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Tue Aug 28 22:51:22 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue Aug 28 22:51:32 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Rain / Query on Non-Local Consciousness References: <000d01c7e834$ddd47420$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><003b01c7e844$f012e9e0$d6457257@zen><007001c7e8c7$cf07a870$f2339c04@Dan><012c01c7e8f9$aa201b00$d6457257@zen><00a101c7e964$d9e71530$fb369c04@Dan> <020401c7e9c6$c1ac9d20$d6457257@zen> Message-ID: <006901c7e9f8$41ad8300$de339c04@Dan> Stephen wrote: > Another clever Lusthaus ploy ! Whenever I mentioned the meanings of aama, > I always gave a range of possibilities ("raw, uncooked, immature, > unrefined") to show the semantic range. You are the one who has homed in on > "raw" -- I never suggested that either aama or ? should be translated thus > in this case. It seemed to me, perhaps mistakenly, that you were placing special emphasis on that sense. My reasons for finding "raw" or "uncooked" as especially misguided in this case are given in my message to Antonio. >You have set up a strawman argument and, I expect, wasted a > lot of your time searching for those passages. The time was not wasted. What I searched for were occurrences in Buddhist texts of ? and ? in tandem and/or opposition, and any other occurrence of ?? in which the ? formed an integral unit with ? instead of in its usual function as a conjunction. I discovered, among other things, how common a formula ????????? and minor variations thereof actually is, which surprised me. And I found no occurrence of ?? as an integral unit. Dan Lusthaus From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Aug 29 08:17:43 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed Aug 29 08:17:54 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Aama do.sa I References: <004501c7e949$9ac7fab0$fb369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <007701c7ea47$5f835a90$de339c04@Dan> Joy, > I don't mean to denigrate the "medical knowledge" of the past, but your descriptions raise some questions. Can we really talk about medical knowledge in a pre-science period where e.g. notions like psychosomatic disorders weren't known) ? Why do you assume that Indian (or for that matter Greek, Chinese, Islamic) medicine were unaware of psychosomatic issues? On the contrary, it is in the post-Descartes world -- in what your are implying the is science period -- that psychosomatic issues have become problematic. Descartes made extensional (material) things and thought things absolutely separate substances (he ridiculously posited the pineal gland as the magical bridge between them). "Scientists" and metaphysicians have been trying to put the two substances back together ever since. In the science era a disease is only real once it can be found under a microscope. In the Caraka-samhita, on the contrary, physical and mental (emotional, etc.) factors can be mutually causative (that is what psycho-soma means in Greek). For instance, in the Vimaanasthaana chapter (from which the quotes about aama were drawn), when introducing the problem of improper food intake, it says: "food deficient in quantity [i.e., too much or too little] will produce the following symptoms: 1. impairment of the strength, complexion and plumpness; 2. distension and misperistalsis in the abdomen; 3. impairment of longevity, virility and ojas; 4. affliction of body, mind, intellect and senses..." And a few lines later: "In addition to the intake of food in excess, the following factors also affect the body by vitiating the undigested food product: 1. Untimely intake of food and drinks, which are heavy, ununctuous, cold, dry, despisable, constipative, irritant, unclean and mutually contradictory; 2. intake of food and drinks when the individual is afflicted with passion, anger, greed, confusion, envy, bashfulness, grief, indigestion, anxiety and fear. Thus it is said:- Wholesome food taken even in proper quantity do not get properly digested when the individual is afflicted with grief, anger, sorrow, excessive sleep and excessive vigil." After the food discussion this same chapter goes on to define debate (vaada), proper and fallacious arguments (and is the earliest extant Indian text to do so -- all the subsequent traditions, such as Nyaya, the Buddhists, etc., draw their vocabulary of these matters from this treatise!), and states: "The debate among physicians relates to nothing else but the science of medicine. The various details about statements and rejoinders as well as fundamental principles (of the debates) mentioned above of course relate to all the scriptures. A physician should make statements with due regard to the principles of debates. He should not make statements of the context or contrary to scriptural prescriptions or without due examination or irrelevant, confused or too sketchy statements. Whatever he states should BE BASED ON ARGUMENTS. All debates equipped with arguments and flawlessness go a long way towards proper treatment because they enhance the enlightening powers of mental faculty. The mental faculty undisturbed well accomplishes all the objects in view." By "scripture," here it means aapta -- the authoritative traditional lore that has been accumulated through investigation, tested, continuously debated and bone fide. Sounds fairly scientific, don't you think? >Where would we have to draw the line between the legitimate doctors of those days and the charlatans? We, as non-physicians, are the intended dupes of the charlatans, so they will make it hard for us to tell the difference. The CS provides some guidelines, but primarily makes exposing frauds the responsibility of other physicians. Unfortunately for the patient, the charlatan will be exposed by the failure of his treatment, an event that comes too late to be of any use to a patient who is a victim of a fatal hoax. > It's hard to imagine (and my imagination is my final judge, so please remain within its limits) for me that the majority of the people had access to those legitimate treaty writing doctors who probably only worked for courts and the higher classes. Actually, the charlatans' main targets were the court and the wealthy -- con men are in it for the money. > So what "doctors" did most people see if they saw any at all? I don't know the socio-economic distribution of doctors, or percentage present per population in India in the past. The Caraka-samhita does not promote the idea of only serving the well-to-do, but takes, in many places, a compassionate view toward all sufferers, similar to the Hippocratic spirit. The economics of medicine remains a problem, even today (especially in the US). > And perhaps the legitimate doctors were less contemptuous of charlatanish methods, providing they had some effect? An effective treatment is not charlatan. CS is not trying to beat folk medicine into oblivion. What it promotes is providing the best possible care. If something works, study and adopt it. The charlatans it complains about are those who are pretenders with outrageous but seductive claims, who separate the wealthy from their money but never had the means to cure the disease. And the tone with which CS visits that subject suggests there were quite a few of those. CS is nothing if not practical in almost all matters. >Perhaps they were not exposing charlatans, but fighting rivals. Rivals debate (see above). Charlatans run like scared mice from the light of exposure. >In our "rationalist" world it is easy to expose a charlatan for his not complying with scientific methods, but what scientific methods could an Indian charlatan be accused of for not complying with? His lack of knowledge of the aapta, and inability to properly debate alternatives. > In a world where macrocosm, microcosm and mesocosm are considered so intermingled, not to say one, do you think the legitimate doctors managed to keep their knowledge purely medical? I'm not sure what "purely medical" means. Medicine is about health and life and what complicates that, and what to do about maximizing health and minimizing or curing the complications. So medicine is a large as life itself. What box do you want to confine it to? Dan Lusthaus From jvriens at free.fr Wed Aug 29 09:43:00 2007 From: jvriens at free.fr (Joy Vriens) Date: Wed Aug 29 09:43:11 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Aama do.sa I References: <007701c7ea47$5f835a90$de339c04@Dan> Message-ID: Hi Dan, (I made some hopefully fortunate cuts in order for the message to pass) >> I don't mean to denigrate the "medical knowledge" of the past, but your >descriptions raise some questions. Can we really talk about medical >knowledge in a pre-science period where e.g. notions like psychosomatic >disorders weren't known) ? >Why do you assume that Indian (or for that matter Greek, Chinese, Islamic) >medicine were unaware of psychosomatic issues? Physical and mental factors can be mutually causative as you say. The exemple you give from the CS concerns amongst others the negative influence of certain emotions on the digestion process, which everybody on this list probably experienced for themselves. But what in the case of apparently phyisical disorders "entirely" caused by mental factors, like the cases of hysteria studied by Charcot etc? What about the miracles performed by Christ and other prophets or healers where the blind were made to see and the cripple to walk? Thoses cases were likely to be treated as cases of possession, by those who distinguished between physical disorders (in a more or less Cartesian or materialistic sense, if such people existed in those days), physical disorders caused by demons, planets etc. or simply possession. Were those Indian and Chinese doctors capable of distinguishing between a genuin physical disorder and physical ailments created by mental disorders and did they make that dis! tinction? If such legitmate doctors did exist e.g. in a Chinese court, how come the emperors were so eager to have their mantrins perform magic rituals (as described by Michael Strickmann)? Why didn't the doctors expose them as charlatans? Or if they did, why didn't the emperors act accordingly? >After the food discussion this same chapter goes on to define debate >(vaada), proper and fallacious arguments (and is the earliest extant Indian >text to do so -- all the subsequent traditions, such as Nyaya, the >Buddhists, etc., draw their vocabulary of these matters from this >treatise!), and states: >"The debate among physicians relates to nothing else but the science of >medicine. The various details about statements and rejoinders as well as >fundamental principles (of the debates) mentioned above of course relate to >all the scriptures. A physician should make statements with due regard to >the principles of debates. He should not make statements of the context or >contrary to scriptural prescriptions or without due examination or >irrelevant, confused or too sketchy statements. Whatever he states should BE >BASED ON ARGUMENTS. All debates equipped with arguments and flawlessness go >a long way towards proper treatment because they enhance the enlightening >powers of mental faculty. The mental faculty undisturbed well accomplishes >all the objects in view." But could those arguments also include the influence of certain planets, demons, karma? >By "scripture," here it means aapta -- the authoritative traditional lore >that has been accumulated through investigation, tested, continuously >debated and bone fide. > >Sounds fairly scientific, don't you think? As far as unbalanced humours, digestion, evolution of the human embryon etc etc are concerned yes, of course, but I still wonder about the other causes I sometimes read about that you are so silent about :-) Perhaps the CS (that I don't know) is a particularly serious medical (in a more contemporary scientific way) treaty and doesn't mention them. >>Where would we have to draw the line between the legitimate doctors of >those days and the charlatans? >We, as non-physicians, are the intended dupes of the charlatans, so they >will make it hard for us to tell the difference. Would those vicious charlatans go as far as to actually heal people? :-) I wonder why the Chinese courts were duped or was that perhaps also for diplomatic religious-political reasons? >Actually, the charlatans' main targets were the court and the wealthy -- con >men are in it for the money. I think we ought to distinguish between charlatans who are conmen and simply in it for the money and sincere but perhaps naive and irresponsible charlatans that are charlatans de facto but not intentionally. Sometimes doctors with a proper medical training are called charlatans by others because they try more unusual alternative methods. >I don't know the socio-economic distribution of doctors, or percentage >present per population in India in the past. The Caraka-samhita does not >promote the idea of only serving the well-to-do, but takes, in many places, >a compassionate view toward all sufferers, similar to the Hippocratic >spirit. The economics of medicine remains a problem, even today (especially >in the US). As always you are far ahead of us but we will follow :-( >> In a world where macrocosm, microcosm and mesocosm are considered so >intermingled, not to say one, do you think the legitimate doctors managed to >keep their knowledge purely medical? >I'm not sure what "purely medical" means. Medicine is about health and life >and what complicates that, and what to do about maximizing health and >minimizing or curing the complications. So medicine is a large as life >itself. What box do you want to confine it to? I have been hinting at it a couple of times in my answer. Could you say something about those planets and demons or karma or say if the CS mentions them? Joy From cfynn at gmx.net Wed Aug 29 10:43:48 2007 From: cfynn at gmx.net (Christopher Fynn) Date: Wed Aug 29 10:44:04 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Aama do.sa I In-Reply-To: <004501c7e949$9ac7fab0$fb369c04@Dan> References: <200708241516.l7OFGnEV011561@ns1.swcp.com><11fdb06a6cab9aca3dc7fcd992f1dd37@toad.net><002701c7e6d4$cfbfb090$83339c04@Dan> <06d701c7e74d$90e17060$41467257@zen><000a01c7e7b8$dbe8bc10$a7339c04@Dan> <46D17D4E.8070600@gmx.net><006201c7e7fd$0a4cdca0$a7339c04@Dan> <46D3B22E.9020004@gmx.net> <004501c7e949$9ac7fab0$fb369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <46D5A244.1010001@gmx.net> Hi Dan I accept that S. Indian medical texts may have nothing to do with or throw no light on the text being discussed between you and Stephen - however I'd like to take issue with a couple of points you made in your previous reply you wrote: > Chris, >> Should we geographically compartmentalise things so much? > Slow down. That people moved around, especially (but not exclusively) for > trade, is not in dispute. > What happens when people from different cultures, > or different parts of a shared culture, encounter each other and intermingle > is a complex business, and doesn't entail a wholesome transference by > osmosis of everything from one culture to the other. India was already > engaged in trade with Solomon, so trade routes were quite early. That does > not automatically entail that medical knowledge flowed through those > channels as well. Considering the length of time it took to get anywhere in those days I suspect one pretty much either had to trade goods or be someone who could offer specialised services (e.g. a skilled artisan or a physician) in order to maintain oneself on such long journeys. Also, given the likelihood of falling ill on long journeys to foreign lands, if I were a wealthy merchant organising a trading caravan or voyage - one of the first people I'd want to take along with me would be a trusted physician. (If the physician were literate he might usefully double up as a secretary and accountant as well.) All in all I think medical knowledge would have served as a fairly good passport and ticket to travel. > Medical knowledge is a special case -- a guild of highly trained and skilled > practitioners, that often jealously guard their professional secrets. Some > treatments for common illnesses might be transmitted, but detailed medical > training -- the kind, for instance, described in Caraka-samhita, which > devotes a good deal of attention to aapta (traditional authority, learning >>from the teacher, exposing charlatans who give legitimate doctors a bad > name, etc.), is not for general distribution by businessmen. One expects > with cross cultural encounters to find foreign coins, influences on art, > etc. Transference of medical knowledge is something else. Medicines (and drugs) are and always have been an almost ideal object of trade - light weight, valuable - (with a value that increases the further away you get from the source), and for the most part non-perishable. With trade of specialized goods knowledge of how to use those goods generally gets traded or transferred as well. (That way you get to sell two things) Medicine a "special case"? - just look at the number of people - qualified and unqualified - successfully (at least in financial terms) practising various forms of "alternative medicine" of exotic origin in the west - often despite the best efforts of the powerful medical lobby to stop them. Do you think things would have been so different then? Human nature having changed very little, I don't think so. While there may have been resistance from the local medical establishment to foreign medicine and ideas, even in those times I can imagine a few local physicians wanting to obtain the latest exotic medicine or bit of foreign medical knowledge just to be one up on their colleagues. I do agree that transfer of this kind of knowledge is a complex process - if something seems to be efficacious people will inevitably interpret it in terms of their own way of seeing things - or adapt it to fit in with the theories current in their society far sooner than they will actually change those theories in light of this something new. best regards - Chris From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Aug 29 11:12:42 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed Aug 29 11:13:02 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Aama do.sa I References: <007701c7ea47$5f835a90$de339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <00a801c7ea5f$d734e870$de339c04@Dan> Hi Joy, The Caraka-samhita is a huge text, so I cannot type in all the relevant portions. I don't know if there is a French translation available, and if so, what it's quality is, but it is worth taking a look at the text. There are a few English translations. The one I prefer is _Agnive"sa's Caraka Sa.mhitaa (Text with English Translation & Critical Exposition based on Cakrapaa.ni Datta's AAyurveda Diipikaa)_ tr. by Ram Karan Sharma and Vaidya Bhagwan Dash, Varanasi: Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series, 7 vols., since, despite its occasional typos and verbal infelicities, it includes the Skt text in devanagri. In brief, there are entire chapters on psychology and psychiatry (which Asanga's YBh also echoes when discussing the causes of drowsiness, madness, unconsciousness, etc.). Among its treatments -- along with herbs, diet, etc. -- are recommendations for changing lifestyles and daily regimens, for a variety of diseases, some of which we would consider psychiatric. In a pre-Cartesian world, there was no compulsion to completely isolate the physical from the mental. If herbs, or diet, or smoking (! yes! there are prescriptions for therapeutic smoking in CS), or changing habits, etc. are effective, then they become part of the treatment plan. What CS says (same chapter I've been citing): "68. There are some important topics which we shall explain for the sake of knowledge of the physicians. The wise admire action initiated with due knowledge. A physician can accomplish the desired object without any special effort, provided he duly intitates action aftern having full knowledge of kaara.na (cause), kara.na (instrument), kaaryayoni (source of action), kaarya (action itself), kaaryaphala (fruits of action), anubandha (subsequent manifestation), de"sa (habitat), kaala (season), prav,rtti (initiation) and upaaya (means of action)." The -/ k.r root, also the root of karma, is present here. That is the CS's main "karma" theory. As for demons, planets, etc., these are discussed, and in a rational (if not modern or postmodern) fashion. These are treated more as matters of attitude than physical influences, though it doesn't rule them out entirely. Later Ayurveda brings astrology especially back into a more prominent position. CS is generally acknowledged as the first Indian text to introduce the idea of pramana (means of knowledge), and offers detailed discussion of pramana in several places (foundational discussions for the other schools, including, as I mentioned, criteria and terminology for parts of an argument, distinguishing valid from invalid arguments, etc.). It accepts four pramanas: 1. perception (pratyak.sa), 2. reasoning (anumaana), 3. traditional authority (aapta), and an unusual fourth pramana not found elsewhere, 4. yukti. Yukti in other texts comes to mean "logical connection," "reasonable," "logical," etc., but CS uses it in a very special way. Since medical diagnosis and prognosis involves not only detecting causes (diagnosis) based on symptoms, but also adjusting things as the disease progresses and changes course, and a good doctor should be able to make reasonable predictions on possible outcomes (prognosis), yukti for CS involves analyzing how a variety of causes and conditions influence each other and work together over the course of time. It offers an analogy to predicting a crop outcome before planting -- season, weather, etc. are all important factors, and the final outcome can be affected by changing conditions over the course of the growing season, all of which are part of this synthetic type of reasoning. The physician does the same when treating a disease. Seasonal adjustments to treatment (e.g., which foods or herbs to use in which type of season -- remember much of India has some pretty extreme weather changes over the course of the year) are emphasized. Planets are acknowledged, but there are no astrological treatments. During one of the pramana discussions, an argument is made for the veracity of reincarnation (I don't think Richard would find them compelling arguments, however), but its influence on current illnesses is severly minimized. As for China, emperor folly is one of the enduring themes in Chinese history. Suggesting something contrary to the Emperor's wishes could be a fatal endeavor. This is not only true of medical advice, but in most spheres, and there is a long literature dating back at least to Warring States times concerned with how to strategically approach the Emperor with such advice or even whether to do so at all, while Chinese history is filled with the corpses of trustworthy advisors who were done away with by conspiratorial rivals. In that atmosphere, if an emperor wanted to play with cinnabar concoctions, the opportunities for approaching him with what would amount to denying him his chance at physical immortality were minimal and dangerous. Especially if, as do many westerners today, he believed in miracles, spirits, etc. Many Emperors acted liked spoiled teenagers, or worse. The question of differentiating well-intentioned charlatans from pure con-people is perhaps a legal matter. In terms of the patient however, whether someone believes his own quack cure or is being purely deceptive makes little difference. The patient dies either way, and when a more effective treatment is available and part of the canons of recognized medical knowledge (aapta), then it is criminal and dangerous for either type to practice. As CS said: "The wise admire action initiated with due knowledge." Delving into some of this on a buddhism list is perhaps relevant since CS (and not just Samkhya) is an important source and fountainhead for Buddhist medieval discourse, especially the hetuvidya tradition. Dan From jkirk at spro.net Wed Aug 29 11:40:20 2007 From: jkirk at spro.net (jkirk) Date: Wed Aug 29 11:40:18 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Aama do.sa I In-Reply-To: <46D5A244.1010001@gmx.net> References: <200708241516.l7OFGnEV011561@ns1.swcp.com><11fdb06a6cab9aca3dc7fcd992f1dd37@toad.net><002701c7e6d4$cfbfb090$83339c04@Dan> <06d701c7e74d$90e17060$41467257@zen><000a01c7e7b8$dbe8bc10$a7339c04@Dan> <46D17D4E.8070600@gmx.net><006201c7e7fd$0a4cdca0$a7339c04@Dan> <46D3B22E.9020004@gmx.net><004501c7e949$9ac7fab0$fb369c04@Dan> <46D5A244.1010001@gmx.net> Message-ID: <000c01c7ea63$abf94350$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Considering the length of time it took to get anywhere in those days I suspect one pretty much either had to trade goods or be someone who could offer specialised services (e.g. a skilled artisan or a physician) in order to maintain oneself on such long journeys. Also, given the likelihood of falling ill on long journeys to foreign lands, if I were a wealthy merchant organising a trading caravan or voyage - one of the first people I'd want to take along with me would be a trusted physician. (If the physician were literate he might usefully double up as a secretary and accountant as well.) All in all I think medical knowledge would have served as a fairly good passport and ticket to travel. ........... Medicines (and drugs) are and always have been an almost ideal object of trade - light weight, valuable - (with a value that increases the further away you get from the source), and for the most part non-perishable. With trade of specialized goods knowledge of how to use those goods generally gets traded or transferred as well. (That way you get to sell two things) Medicine a "special case"? - just look at the number of people - qualified and unqualified - successfully (at least in financial terms) practising various forms of "alternative medicine" of exotic origin in the west - often despite the best efforts of the powerful medical lobby to stop them. Do you think things would have been so different then? Human nature having changed very little, I don't think so. While there may have been resistance from the local medical establishment to foreign medicine and ideas, even in those times I can imagine a few local physicians wanting to obtain the latest exotic medicine or bit of foreign medical knowledge just to be one up on their colleagues. I do agree that transfer of this kind of knowledge is a complex process - if something seems to be efficacious people will inevitably interpret it in terms of their own way of seeing things - or adapt it to fit in with the theories current in their society far sooner than they will actually change those theories in light of this something new. best regards - Chris ============== Hi Chris, Brilliant. You beat me to it. I'd only add that, as we know from the history of Indic cultural expansions into southeast asia (such as parts of today's Indonesia and also former Indo-China and Cambodia), traders over the seas were the medium of expansion while Hindu priests and/or Brahmins and Buddhist monks went along to proselytise. It must be the case that some medical practitioners of Ayurveda were also 'renouncers' and free to accompany traders on the silk routes as well. (Perhaps grhastya practitioners also went along for these trips, but I doubt if very many did it, being hooked up with wives and progeny. Of course, such details can only be speculated upon.) Buddhist monks often knew about various kinds of medical practice, as did cultivated Brahmins educated in various shastras of all kinds. Best, Joanna _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/976 - Release Date: 8/27/2007 6:20 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/977 - Release Date: 8/28/2007 4:29 PM From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Aug 29 12:23:45 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed Aug 29 12:24:06 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Aama do.sa I References: <200708241516.l7OFGnEV011561@ns1.swcp.com><11fdb06a6cab9aca3dc7fcd992f1dd37@toad.net><002701c7e6d4$cfbfb090$83339c04@Dan> <06d701c7e74d$90e17060$41467257@zen><000a01c7e7b8$dbe8bc10$a7339c04@Dan> <46D17D4E.8070600@gmx.net><006201c7e7fd$0a4cdca0$a7339c04@Dan> <46D3B22E.9020004@gmx.net><004501c7e949$9ac7fab0$fb369c04@Dan> <46D5A244.1010001@gmx.net> Message-ID: <00b201c7ea69$c4b8a790$de339c04@Dan> Hi Chris, > Also, given the likelihood of falling ill on long journeys to foreign lands, if > I were a wealthy merchant organising a trading caravan or voyage - one of the > first people I'd want to take along with me would be a trusted physician. (If > the physician were literate he might usefully double up as a secretary and > accountant as well.) > > All in all I think medical knowledge would have served as a fairly good passport > and ticket to travel. Have you been watching a lot of old movies where the explorers' main adversary is the local "witch doctor"? Or listening to Albert Schweitzer's recording of Bach? A lot of woulda, coulda, shoulda. The question is what evidence is there that merchants carried along personal physicians (as opposed to maybe a porter with some first aid knowledge)? That's an extra mouth to feed, to protect from brigands (who might be tempted to keep a doctor for themselves), etc. There is speculation, and then there is evidence. People actually got around a lot more in the ancient world than most people today suspect. Xuanzang walked from Chang'an to Nalanda without a personal physician, though he visited Indian physicians when he got ill in India (doesn't everybody?). That some medical information -- such as what I suggested in a previous message, i.e., novel treatments for common illnesses -- traveled is clear. That the Chinese became interested at a certain point in the importation of Indian medicinal herbs is also on the record. What I suggested would occur only rarely is the gross adoption of an alternate medical system, or major component of a foreign system. Islamic pulse theory (i.e., various ways of diagnosing illness based on a variety of pulse types) being adopted into Indian medicine is an epochal event (for one thing, it takes quite a bit of training). >> etc. Transference of medical knowledge is something else. > Medicines (and drugs) are and always have been an almost ideal object of trade - > light weight, valuable - (with a value that increases the further away you get > from the source), and for the most part non-perishable. With trade of > specialized goods knowledge of how to use those goods generally gets traded or > transferred as well. (That way you get to sell two things) The most important weapon in the physician's arsenal is herbs (today we've replaced that with pills, to the delight of the drug companies). Not all could be dried or otherwise made ready for transport. Some were local and had to be administered in relatively fresh form, or they grew in insufficient quantities to export, or in remote places that could only be harvested during a narrow window in the season. Again, it would be the more common herbs for the more common diseases (or, alternatively, recommend the same herb for myriad ailments) that traveled, e.g., cinnamon. But these need not involve the transference of medical "systems" from one place to another -- just specific cures that proved effective. On your other points I think we are in agreement. Dan From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Aug 29 12:47:41 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed Aug 29 12:48:01 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Aama do.sa I References: <200708241516.l7OFGnEV011561@ns1.swcp.com><11fdb06a6cab9aca3dc7fcd992f1dd37@toad.net><002701c7e6d4$cfbfb090$83339c04@Dan> <06d701c7e74d$90e17060$41467257@zen><000a01c7e7b8$dbe8bc10$a7339c04@Dan> <46D17D4E.8070600@gmx.net><006201c7e7fd$0a4cdca0$a7339c04@Dan> <46D3B22E.9020004@gmx.net><004501c7e949$9ac7fab0$fb369c04@Dan><46D5A244.1010001@gmx.net> <000c01c7ea63$abf94350$2930cece@OPTIPLEX> Message-ID: <00de01c7ea6d$1c516660$de339c04@Dan> Joanna, > Brilliant. You beat me to it. I'd only add that, as we know from the history > of Indic cultural expansions into southeast asia (such as parts of today's > Indonesia and also former Indo-China and Cambodia), traders over the seas > were the medium of expansion while Hindu priests and/or Brahmins and > Buddhist monks went along to proselytise. > It must be the case that some medical practitioners of Ayurveda were also > 'renouncers' and free to accompany traders on the silk routes as well. > (Perhaps grhastya practitioners also went along for these trips, but I doubt > if very many did it, being hooked up with wives and progeny. Of course, such > details can only be speculated upon.) Buddhist monks often knew about > various kinds of medical practice, as did cultivated Brahmins educated in > various shastras of all kinds. Indian expansion into Southeast Asia and the islands at that time involved settlement of significant Indian communities. Doctors who might appear there would largely have ministered to that community. But more importantly, visiting a doctor only involves receiving treatment -- not imbibing massive quantities of medical knowledge or systems. "Make a soup of these herbs (nevermind what they are) and drink four times a day" is not the same as conferring an MD on someone. There are ways to check these sorts of speculations -- for instance, examine Chinese medical lore of various periods and/or Indian medical lore, and look for traces of the other's medical knowledge. Comparative pharmacopia is a still developing field, but we discover many herbs, plants, etc., were unknown in one or the other place. Because herbs are mentioned in numerous sutras, some of the names of Indian medicinal plants were known in China, but the medical lit. informs us that the plant itself was unknown there. What we find is that there was interest (more on the Chinese side than the Indian, undoubtedly introduced by Buddhist missionaries), but minimal impact. That is why Yijing's chapter on medicine (which I mentioned previously) in his travelog is illuminating. He tells us he had originallly studied to be a doctor in China, but changed his career choice. So, while he was not a full fledged Chinese doctor, he had at least the basic knowledge that an educated layperson [sic] would have of its theories and practices. He also tells us that he never lost his interest. Much of Indian medicine he nonetheless found exotic and unfamiliar, though he draws some parallels or mentions comparable things in Ch medicine that handle things similarly or different. He is as amused at these new exotic finds as when he discovered that no one in the "Western lands" used chopsticks. Dan From s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com Wed Aug 29 17:07:18 2007 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.plus.com (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed Aug 29 17:01:31 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness References: <000d01c7e834$ddd47420$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><003b01c7e844$f012e9e0$d6457257@zen><007001c7e8c7$cf07a870$f2339c04@Dan><012c01c7e8f9$aa201b00$d6457257@zen><00a101c7e964$d9e71530$fb369c04@Dan><020401c7e9c6$c1ac9d20$d6457257@zen> <006901c7e9f8$41ad8300$de339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <006701c7ea91$59a2d6b0$e4427257@zen> Dan Lusthaus wrote: > What I searched for were occurrences in Buddhist > texts of ? and ? in tandem and/or opposition, and any other occurrence of > ?? in which the ? formed an integral unit with ? instead of in its usual > function as a conjunction. I discovered, among other things, how common a > formula ????????? and minor variations thereof actually is, which > surprised me. And I found no occurrence of ?? as an integral unit. Dear Dan, I am not deluded to the extent that I think every word I write is a precious pearl of wisdom, but I do wish you would at least read what I write with a modicum of attention -- I do try to give some thought to what I write. First you wrongly assumed I was insisting on a meaning of "raw" for ?ma and ? , when I actually gave a number of possible equivalents to show the semantic range of the words which are all well attested in standard reference works. And now we have the above ! You say that you have found no "occurrence of ?? as an integral unit". Not surprising, as I never said you would -- so more wasted time. If you had been reading a little more attentively at the time, you might have later recollected the gist of the following, when I first mentioned this phenomena: "but ? also came to be widely used as a topic marker in Buddhist translation texts, which can be either grammatical subject, or as here, object" (though, actually, not so "widely" as to occur on every other page). Perhaps I ought to have spelt this out a bit more clearly, but the use of ? which I was highlighting is a usage I have noticed in a number of Chinese translations where it does not seem to function in any of the standard ways that are described, but rather seems to function as a *kind* of enclitic. It was in that sense that I later indicated to you that "the ? goes with ?", since enclitics always "go with" the preceding word. Pulleyblank mentions another enclitic use of the word -- though not this one -- in his Outline of Classical Chinese Grammar. These are possible influences from the colloquial langauage. But I think that my meaning here should have been reasonably clear when taken in conjunction with my earlier comment. So, sorry for the wild goose chase -- more haste, less speed, perhaps ? But, out of interest, how would you interpret the ? in the whole phrase ? Obviously, if you construe ? as a verb, then there is no problem. On the other hand, I think that ? is most likely to be a noun, so the ? is unusual in conventional classical terms. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Wed Aug 29 18:22:37 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed Aug 29 18:22:45 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Query on Non-Local Consciousness References: <000d01c7e834$ddd47420$2930cece@OPTIPLEX><003b01c7e844$f012e9e0$d6457257@zen><007001c7e8c7$cf07a870$f2339c04@Dan><012c01c7e8f9$aa201b00$d6457257@zen><00a101c7e964$d9e71530$fb369c04@Dan><020401c7e9c6$c1ac9d20$d6457257@zen><006901c7e9f8$41ad8300$de339c04@Dan> <006701c7ea91$59a2d6b0$e4427257@zen> Message-ID: <018c01c7ea9b$df90fcc0$de339c04@Dan> Dear Stephen, Thanks for the further clarification of er as an enclitic topic marker. Your meaning is much clearer now. It is not a function that I have noticed, and would not have suspected it here without your prodding. > But, out of interest, how would you interpret the ? in the whole phrase ? In its normal usage as a conjunction it usually means something like "and" or "and yet" -- so taking the ? as a noun (we agree here), and ?? as a verbal phrase [an ? can link such things], it would be something like: "aama and yet doesn't vomit," or, in a more readable form: "[a person has the type of] aama [in which he] doesn't vomit." As I've suggested previously, based on the Caraka-samhita, a "non-vomiting form of aama" would suggest a specific type of fatal aama. Not all forms of aama are fatal, and thus would not be causes of untimely death, some are curable; one of the fatal kinds is marked symptomatically by the inability to vomit. All forms of aama, on the other hand, involve some degree of retension of undigested food, though at certain critical stages, may result in vomiting and other means of expelling the buildup. Without being able to examine the medical text (or oral text) that Asanga was drawing on, it is hard to say for certain. Or he may have simply been repeating the formula from a sutra (he attributes this to the Buddha), in which case perhaps a Sanskrit version of that sutra passage, or subsequent discussion -- either in the sutra or commentarial -- might shed some additional light. Since Numata doesn't encourage such exploring, I may or may not find the time to hunt that down. How would you propose to translate a topic marker? "Aama in which there is no vomiting"? "Aama: non-expelling/vomiting." Doesn't that -- in English -- semantically more or less come out to the same thing? In the meantime, this discussion has been very illuminating and helpful (at least for me). The YBh translation I posted was a rough draft, with numerous passages earmarked (mostly marked by including the Ch characters) for further investigation which I had not gotten around to. This forced me to do that for at least one of the questionable phrases, and I think we now all have a better sense of the range of possible readings (in three languages). Sorry that Stephen found me so obstinate, deaf or wearying. best wishes, Dan Lusthaus From jvriens at free.fr Thu Aug 30 02:01:05 2007 From: jvriens at free.fr (Joy Vriens) Date: Thu Aug 30 02:01:14 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Aama do.sa I References: <00a801c7ea5f$d734e870$de339c04@Dan> Message-ID: Dan, >As for demons, planets, etc., these are discussed, and in a rational (if not >modern or postmodern) fashion. These are treated more as matters of attitude >than physical influences, though it doesn't rule them out entirely. Later >Ayurveda brings astrology especially back into a more prominent position. I still can't wrap my mind around the model of a physician, with a pramana approach not unlike contemporary medics (all things in proportion of course) working in the same court for the same people as the Shaivite priest (who interfered on almost any field including their protector's health, longevity etc.) whilst exposing charlatanism... Were the roles of the physician and of the priest that well defined? I don't know for the physician, but the priest's domain could be almost unlimited as I have understood it right. Were there clashes between them or did they work together well? I understand you want to focus on the methodological pramana approach of the CS and its influence on e.g. Buddhism, which I find interesting, because, without going into specifics, many references about the Buddha being a physician and other images from the medical world can be found in Buddhism. >The question of differentiating well-intentioned charlatans from pure >con-people is perhaps a legal matter. Yes, I also see some parallels to the in my eyes artifical "differentiation" between a religion and a sect. In France the "official" religions have laws voted to fight against sects. But it is very tough to find criteria that will fit their exact puyrpose and that can't be found in the religions themselves or even elsewhere. "Religion" is everywhere. There is much more freedom in that regard (sects) in Great-Britain and the States. >Delving into some of this on a buddhism list is perhaps relevant since CS >(and not just Samkhya) is an important source and fountainhead for Buddhist >medieval discourse, especially the hetuvidya tradition. I have no doubt about its relevancy. Joy From vasubandhu at earthlink.net Fri Aug 31 00:48:59 2007 From: vasubandhu at earthlink.net (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri Aug 31 00:49:10 2007 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Aama do.sa I References: <00a801c7ea5f$d734e870$de339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <007d01c7eb9b$04758f60$62339c04@Dan> Joy, > I still can't wrap my mind around the model of a physician, with a pramana approach [...] working in the same court for the same people as the Shaivite priest Interesting image. I suppose if the physician makes generous donations to the Shaivite priest's favorite charity, everything would be alright -- and if he is a good physician who has effected some dramatic cures for members of the royal family, the priest will tread lightly. We tend to portray and envision Indian (and other) culture(s) in very monochromatic images, as if the same types of situations and dynamics functioned with minimal variation over countless centuries, and in multiple places. One can imagine many different sociological scenarios, affected by a multitude of factors, such as predilections of the king, reputation of the physician, etc. A court physician might enjoy his position because while he is only called upon when someone is ill, he would at other times have the financial support and leisure to pursue other studies and research. In other cultures, e.g., we might remind ourselves that Ibn Sina [Avicenna], Ibn Rushd [Averroes] and Rambam [Maimonides] were physicians -- Maimonides to the Egyptian sultan -- and they were also three of the best medieval philosophers who also pursued interests in various other sciences (astronomy, jurisprudence, mathematics, etc.). Ibn Rushd did have his problems with the authorities (not a Saivite among them), but not over medical issues. In a more general sense, however, as the Daoists and dialecticians like to point out, pretty much everything that happens also engenders and enters a relation with its opposite. The tendency to embrace the rational and reject the "superstitious" was not an invention or triumph of the Enlightenment, but a constant struggle in human history. Confucians were rejecting superstition back in the Han (ca. 2000 years ago); Buddha in his day tried to replace magical thinking with causal analysis and causal etiology (the four noble truths are a medical model, still taught in medical schools today under the label "Pathological Model of Disease:" 1. Symptom, 2. Diagnosis, 3. Prognosis, 4. Treatment Plan). This, on the one hand, suggests that there was a great deal of "superstition" at that time against which one had to mount an organized critique; on the other hand, as we know, in Buddhism (and China) superstitious thinking always returns with a vengeance, and magical thinking has become integral to many forms of Buddhist thinking. So the more "magical" and fascistic the Shaivite priest might get (and it would be silly to think they were all trident wielding Mussolinis), the more the counter-response would be to pursue a more rational, liberal approach. History is that sort of dialectical dance. The more Richard thinks like Richard, the more Bushes arise seeking office and power. The more Bushes who get into power, the more Richards who vent their spleens on email lists. So in any given Indian court, how the dance progresses would depend on how well the dancers play their part, etc. > I understand you want to focus on the methodological pramana approach of the CS and its influence on e.g. Buddhism, which I find interesting, because, without going into specifics, many references about the Buddha being a physician and other images from the medical world can be found in Buddhism. In addition, I am intrigued by the role medicine -- in the form of medical causal thinking -- has played in the history of philosophy. That pramana-theory was invented by physicians and only afterward appropriated by "philosophers" makes perfect sense. Aristotle was primarily a botanist, and secondarily a biologist... philosophy was the byproduct, and his writings (e.g., on melancholia -- what today we tend to include under the label of depression) were influential in the Western medical traditions. His botanical classifications led to his ontological classifications (the Great Chain of Being that the medievals derived from the Organon) -- "family trees" -- better known to philosophers these days as classes, sets, etc. Had he been a practicing physician rather than a classifier of family chains of distinctions, western metaphysics might have taken a very different shape, more focused on efficient causes than on formal classifications. > Yes, I also see some parallels to the in my eyes artifical "differentiation" between a religion and a sect. [...] > There is much more freedom in that regard (sects) in Great-Britain and the States. Perhaps. But we don't have clear criteria here either. Here we tend to tolerate "harmless" sects, as long as they don't endanger others or their own members. Christian Science and other "religions" that reject certain medical treatments, such as blood transfusions, even for their children, have stirred up legal controversies from time to time, and the "law" in such cases still remains murky. As long as sects stay off the mainstream radar screen, they can operate pretty much as they wish. I live only an hour or so from Salem, Massachusetts, where a bunch of innocent women were executed for being witches. Something of that legacy -- witchhunts for Communists, pedophiles, liberals, etc. -- still lingers in the air. Dan Lusthaus