[Buddha-l] Re: **REALLY** Western Buddhism

[James Ward]

(Hoping this makes sense...)

Hi Mike,

You wrote:

> MIKE:
> Are you suggesting that there is a necessary connection between 
> believing in nonsense and wishing the world well?

Wu.

Maybe so -- the idea appeals to my sense of humor.  I suppose it 
depends what you mean by "nonsense" -- in this case nonsense seems to 
include praying (etc.) for someone else's welfare with the notion that 
this could possibly do any good.  I'll posit here that there are at 
least two components to this idea:  praying (sending healing 
intentions, etc.) for someone "blind," so that the person on whose 
behalf prayers (good wishes, etc.) are offered is not aware of the 
prayer, and praying (etc.) for someone when he or she is aware that 
there are others who are offering prayers or healing intentions or 
whatever.

As for the latter, the form of the prayer might matter.  I can imagine 
being a little freaked out if I were to awaken and find a bunch of my 
friends and relatives all kneeling or prostrating around my sick-bed, 
with their eyes clenched tight and intense expressions on their faces, 
but that has a lot to do with my "milieu" and psychological tendencies. 
  I expect it would do me a world of good to have them there beaming 
love and goodwill in my general direction, as it also seems to do when 
I am well.  This is called love and friendship, and generally seems to 
buck up most humans, social creatures that they are.

As for the former ("blind" prayer), are you going to close the book 
already on what we do and don't know about our minds and their 
connections with other minds?  I'd say the "jury" is still way out as 
to whether our minds are atomic (non-)entities hermetically sealed off 
from "interaction at a distance" with others.  I get the impression you 
would disagree with this, and that science has already yielded 
clear-cut answers on this issue.  But I have yet to hear of a scientist 
who has examined the world of matter and energy sufficiently closely to 
even _see_ a mind.

So:  in this case I'm not sure we agree what constitutes sense and 
nonsense, so I can't say whether there is a necessary connection 
between believing in nonsense and wishing the world well.  That being 
said, however, I might as well note that I agree with a lot of what has 
been said in this thread, and that "religion" can certainly be an 
obstacle to progress, whether spiritual or mental or whatever one may 
wish to call this continuum of awareness.  (Sometimes "basic space of 
phenomena" seem like a nice label, when I'm not giggling at labels.)

> If so, wouldn't that imply that the Buddha was wrong to try (and 
> purportedly succeed) in "seeing things as they really are"?

No, because seeing things as they really are does not logically entail 
wishing the world well.  Or does it?  Maybe wishing the world well does 
automatically (or even logically) follow attainment of clear vision.  
Any takers?  (Don't just quote the scriptures!)

> MIKE:
> How does having an imaginery friend yield real benefits?

I'm not sure who you mean the imaginary friend to be here, the earth or 
the human or something yet again different.  But perhaps you may accept 
that an act of imagination can yield real benefits, at least.  It is 
through imagination that we can conceive of a reality better than the 
one we happen to find ourselves in.  Perhaps this occurs "simply" 
through remembering a good situation and then applying it mentally to a 
different one ("I see the world as it could be and say 'why not?'").  
As for imaginary friends -- imagine one of those little reactive dramas 
we seem to play in our minds from time to time.  We imagine someone 
says something or does something, and then we react to that action.  
Perhaps it is the action of someone to whom we have an antipathy, and 
that antipathy gets played out yet again in our reactions.  What if we 
were to react to that person as a friend, through some kind of 
deliberate intervention in the course of our habitual chain-reaction?  
What if we were to create an imaginary environment for our "friend" 
that approximated to our (probably fanciful) notion of "the best of all 
possible worlds"?  :)  Maybe it's possible to accustom ourselves to a 
happier way of doing things and perceiving things.

> Perhaps you agree with the claim of Socrates in Plato's REPUBLIC that 
> the
> people should be fed a "noble lie" for the good of society.

Are you thinking of religion as the "opiate of the masses" when you 
speak of a noble lie?  Anyway, certainly I don't agree with this claim. 
  Why should I trust that the spoon-feeders of noble lies have picked 
the best reality to propagate?  Most of the time it's quite clear that 
they haven't.  At the same time, I don't really feel compelled to take 
the time to knock holes in other people's religious walls, at least not 
while I can pay attention to finding my own way.  This may change.  If 
they come closer to succeeding at setting up a theocracy in the States, 
then it might be time to pick up the sledge-hammers, but that doesn't 
mean that I'll like it.  It will still be a big distraction from 
building my never-never land.

> Needless to say, I don't see things that way.

Good!

Imaginary best wishes,

James