[Buddha-l] Re: there he goes again (samharris)

[Vicente Gonzalez]

L.S. Cousins wrote:


LSC> I don't think this has anything to do with what this discourse is 
LSC> talking about. Both of the two that you describe would be
LSC> jhaayins in terms of this discourse. 

yes if we assume that these Dhamma-devotee monks where not able to
reach arhantood because they were not jhana monks.
However, (and I hope you can know better than me, so I write you)
there is not exclusivity of a jhana progression to reach arhantood
because also one can reach this state in a sudden way (lokuttara?).

Well, it's sounds really impossible to accept that Buddha established
such division in the Sangha, creating one group of monks who were
simple memory machines without any possibility to reach arhantood.
Beside this, inside the Pali Canon there are enough episodes showing
monks reaching arhantood without be in seated meditation.
So my doubt is if that practice in Dhamma would be a different thing
than a simple memorizing and studying.

>>Discussions with this same polarity appears centuries later in Chinese
>>Buddhism
LSC> That is a different (and complex) issue.

it's different, although the similarities are quite sonorous.
Same Buddhadhasa has some speeches in this issue. He distinguish
that practice of the "formal meditation".
http://dharmaavenue.com/avenues/02/Three-Characteristics/BDB024.htm

In this talk, again he find the support of those Chinese masters.
Why it's so?. Obviously because he cannot find that view inside his
own companions of tradition, although he know his own understanding
doesn't have error.
Then I wonder if maybe there is not some misunderstanding about
that Dharma-devotee practice which supposedly consist in memorize
and study, without any hope to reach arhantood because there is not
a jhana practice. I think Buddha never would have allowed such loss of
time without fruit. This contradict his own teaching.
Logical thing it's when the only way to reach arhantood would be as a
jhana monk, then the other group would never have existed.


LSC> See Buddhadaasa's book on "Mindfulness with Breathing" for his views
LSC> on these matters.

I will check. I have the "Buddhadasa" book of Peter A. Jackson, where
there is a chapter devoted to this issue. However, I think many
personal judgements of the author on Zen views and Buddhadasa
coincidences are not right. I will check your recommendation. Thanks. 


LSC> Most of what you give here comes from the commentary. There is 
LSC> nothing in the original verse to suggest that Mahaanaama had not 
LSC> previously attained jhaana.

While he was thinking in suicide because he thought his dirty thoughts
were the cause of his failure?.
That mind can belong to a jhana progression previous to enlightenment
in that schema of jhana progression?.
I ask you because I don't know. I'm quite ignorant about that jahna
schema of practice.


best regards,