[Buddha-l] Beyond Hope

[curt]

I did read your message, Gregory. In it you asked whether or not I could 
substantiate my claim that the current rate of incarceration in the U.S. 
is higher than whatever it was under Mao or Stalin. I have read that 
this is so, and when you challenged me to back it up I first wanted to 
make sure not to stray too far from what I considered the main point to 
be: the outrageousness of having over 2,000,000 people in prison in the 
U.S.

Let's suppose for the sake of argument that the USSR under Stalin and 
the PRC under Mao did, in fact, have higher rates of per capita 
incarceration that the U.S. does now (and/or that they had a higher 
absolute number of people incarcerated). If we allow that then what is 
the result? Only that those countries have decreased their rates of 
incarceration since then, and meanwhile the United States greatly 
increased ours - succeeding in capturing "first place" in the 
International Incarceration Rate Competition - although perhaps not yet 
breaking the historical record (but give us time).

The question "does the United States have a lower incarceration rate 
than the Stalinist or Maoist police states" is like the old "when did 
you stop beating your wife?" To protest that one stopped beating one's 
wife quite some time ago is not much of a comeback.

- Curt

Gregory Bungo wrote:
> Hi Curt,
>
> Did you even bother to read my full message?  I wasn't defending
> the U.S. prison system.  In fact I criticized it.
>
> I could not find anything about Soviet or Maoist prisons in the
> references that you supplied.  I may have missed it, but I have a
> feeling you exaggerated, and you don't want to say so.  The inability
> to admit a mistake is a sign of attachment to self.  Perhaps I
> have misunderstood....
>
> I will acknowledge my mistake if you do provide evidence for your
> assertion about Stalinist or Maoist prisons.  I will also be
> grateful for the education.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Greg Bungo
>
> curt wrote on 5/8/06 4:59 PM:
>
>   
>> Here's a very nice 2005 world map with a country by country color code
>> for incarceration rates (based on data from the International Center for
>> Prison Studies, Kings College, London):
>> http://worldpolicy.org/globalrights/dp/maps-incarceration.html
>>
>> Here's a link to a study of international incarcerations rates, by the
>> "U.S. Justice Fund":
>> http://www.soros.org/initiatives/justice/articles_publications/publications/in
>> tl_incarceration_20030620
>>
>> Here's a link to a 2003 Christian Science Monitor article on
>> incarceration rates:
>> http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0818/p02s01-usju.html
>>
>> Here's a website on the "Real Price of Prison" hosted by Mother Jones
>> Magazine:
>> http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/prisons/index.html
>>
>> The fact that anyone would feel the need to defend the US prison system
>> against comparisons to the regimes of Mao or Stalin basically makes the
>> point all by itself. In terms of being a police state, the U.S. is
>> definitely playing in the major leagues - and we are in the top of our
>> division. If we were to lose the world series (to Stalin or Mao - who
>> only play in the "fantasy" league now, anyway) I don't see that it
>> matters all that much!
>>
>> - Curt
>>
>> Gregory Bungo wrote:
>>     
>>> Hi Curt,
>>>
>>> <curt at cola.iges.org> wrote:
>>>  (snip)
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> That is not an immediately practical answer to
>>>> the very real problem of the incredible rate of incarceration in the
>>>> United States (higher than anything Stalin or Mao ever achieved) - but
>>>> the more one is familiar with the realities of the U.S. prison system,
>>>> the more revolutionary one is likely to become in one's outlook.
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>  (snip)
>>>
>>> Do you have evidence to back up your statement about Stalin
>>> and Mao?  Even if it is true, I suspect it would be due to the very
>>> high mortality rate in the Stalinist and Maoist prisons.  The high
>>> population of China would also be a factor.  Why imprison people
>>> when they can be put to work against their will on a collective farm?
>>>
>>> By the way, I'm not defending the U.S. prison system.  The
>>> mandatory sentences for some offenses are outrageous.  There
>>> are many people in prison who should be in medical treatment
>>> programs.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Greg Bungo
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
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