[Buddha-l] Monk/nun or lay person

[L.S. Cousins]

Well now, Stefan.

>The idea of 'here and now'-nibbana is not found in the Theravada 
>tradition, it's a Mahayana understanding of Nirvana.  The 
>Mahasatipattana  Sutta mentions no 'here and now' Enlightenment,

It mentions seven days, as I recall.

>  in fact, it follows the older conception of the /holy/ life of the 
>Canon, as exemplified in the suttas dealing with the necessity of 
>sustained striving and gradual development.

A false dichotomy.

>Only in later texts in the Canon appears the idea of laymen attaining Nibbana,

And is the evidence that these texts are later the fact that they 
mention laymen ?

>  interestingly, conceptually (and probably historically in its 
>formation) coinciding with the emergence of the Mahayana 
>understanding of laymen and the possibility of realizing Nirvana.

If you apply a sceptical historical view to the development of 
Mahayana as well as to the Pali texts, there is no proof that any 
form of Mahayana is anywhere near as early as any canonical sutta.

>  Regarding your belief, your are right when you observe that if it 
>doesn't take one to enter a monastery to realize Nibbana, one might 
>as well stay a lay person. However, this particular sutta is aimed 
>at monks (nuns were absent)

The Chinese version refers to monks and nuns. Even in the Pali 
version, 'monks' is usually understood to refer to a wider body of 
people too.

>as an in depth instruction for monastics. If you check suttas 
>addressed to lay people you'll find an emphasis on doing good deeds 
>for merit. and a lot less technical terminology than as contained in 
>that sutta.

In some cases, not all.

>The issue has also been dealt with in terms of distinguishing 
>Kammatic  and Nibbanic Buddhism (a distinction introduced by Melford 
>Spiro).

and famously discredited by Richard Gombrich in his review of the 
first edition of Spiro's book.

>Kammatic is the Buddhism of 'good deeds', leading to merit for its 
>actors (and by extension, for others), while Nibbanic Buddhism sees 
>the monastic life as conducive to Nibbana. In the /ideal/ life there 
>is a further distinction of emphasis put on either studying the 
>Dhamma (like Bhikkhu Bodhi with translational work), or meditation 
>(Goenka).

Some people specialize or have limited interests. Others don't. 'Twas ever so.

Lance Cousins