[Buddha-l] Re: What are the "joys of living"?

[Vicente Gonzalez]

Benito wrote:

BC>    That's  quite  absurd.  One doesn't need to become a
BC> crack  addict  to  understand that it's unwholesome--in
BC> fact,  smart  people  try to avoid it.

When you talk about smart people, you mean people who knows the
effects. In this way, one doesn't need to live such things because
one has the knowledge about causes and effects.

But when somebody doesn't have the knowledge that dancing salsa or
having sex is unwholesome, this person is not clever or silly.
Just this person it's ignorant about that. She is not buddhist
home-leaver neither she don't have a Dharma eye to check such things.
Of course, neither she cannot believe you because these things are the
only source for her to know happiness in this world.

"Who suffering and its source has seen
How could such a being look to pleasures?
Knowing attachment as a bondage in the world
A being should train himself for its removal.
- SN 4.21

If any person is not able to see suffering and it source, that person
still is not disenchanted. In this point, following moral rules will
be a lost of time and an increment of dukha by means hidden
repressions.

For this reason, same Buddha only established five precepts for lay
people. If your view would be right, Why Buddha doesn't taught these
Vinaya rules for everybody?. 



BC> In the same way, one  doesn't  need  to  betray  his  spouse and
BC> break a  family  in  order to understand the involved suffering.

do you think breaking a family it's a pleasure for somebody?.


BC> That's  why many people like Hanshan or
BC> Xuyun started to practice Dharma since an early age and
BC> become  great  masters  without  harming others much in
BC> their  learning.

again you are talking about monks, not about lay people.

Can you cite in where these masters forbid to lay people
dance and sex?


BC> Unfortunately, some times people learn
BC> by  the  hard  way  causing  a  lot  of  suffering  for
BC> themselves   and   others.  We  don't  need  to  follow
BC> Angulimala's  or  Milarepa's  steps,  we  can  learn by
BC> others'  experiences,  we  can  learn  from the Dharma.

precisely, from Dharma one can learn that there is not any rule for
lay people to avoid  salsa and sex.
It is a rule for monks, not for lay people.

The state of the world is the best proof that human being cannot
restraint himself of unwholesome things just by hearing a religious
teaching.  While there is not disenchantment, you can talk about avoid
sex and dance for many aeons.



BC> There  is a wonderful passage in the Torah that express
BC> this  idea  quite  well: "Trust in Hashem [we could say
BC> "Dharma"  here] with all your heart, and do not rely on
BC> your own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5).

so it is quite different of Buddhism, because Buddha taught to use
the own understanding before accepting the teaching of any person.
Remember Kalamas Sutta.



best regards,