[Buddha-l] What's in a mantra?

[John Whalen-Bridge]

-----Original Message-----
From: buddha-l-bounces at mailman.swcp.com on behalf of buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com
Sent: Wed 7/26/2006 11:00 AM
To: buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com
Subject: buddha-l Digest, Vol 17, Issue 11
 
Send buddha-l mailing list submissions to
	buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	buddha-l-request at mailman.swcp.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
	buddha-l-owner at mailman.swcp.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of buddha-l digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: diacritics for verse (L.S. Cousins)
   2. RE: diacritics for verse (or rather, usage) (Alex Wilding)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 07:10:39 +0100
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] diacritics for verse
To: Buddhist discussion forum <buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com>
Message-ID: <p06200700c0ecb4fa9acc@[82.5.166.210]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed"

Hi there, Jinavamsa

after a long while . . .

>===============
>Ah, what a lovely verse, the one that got Moggallaana
>and Sariputta! Leaving aside whether it's a mantra or
>not, the way it would read in Pali is:
>
>ye dhammaa hetupabhavaa
>tesa.m hetu.m tathaagataaha
>tesa.m ca yo nirodha
>eva.m vaadi mahaasama.no

I make it:

ye dhammaa hetuppabhavaa, tesa.m hetu.m tathaagato aaha.
tesañ ca yo nirodho, eva.mvaadii mahaasama.no

>I think it can be found at DhA.i.92 and perhaps at
>Vin.i.40. I can't check those sources right now.

The oldest Pali sources I have are:

Vin I 40 & 41; Ap I 25; Pe.t 10

It is cited in around a dozen later texts, mostly just the first 
three words but sometimes in full.

And as has been mentioned, there are many occurrences in inscriptions 
in Sanskrit, Pali and what are presumably other forms of Middle 
Indian.

Lance Cousins


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 10:18:05 +1000
From: "Alex Wilding" <alex at chagchen.org>
Subject: RE: [Buddha-l] diacritics for verse (or rather, usage)
To: "'Buddhist discussion forum'" <buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c6b048$f7aaaf10$0200000a at Tsogyal>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="US-ASCII"

Although it does not satisfy the classical criteria of a mantra, it is very
commonly used after, for instance, reciting a whole bunch of mantras. In
that context, there are three things recited one after each other, treated
almost as a single item: 1) the Sanskrit alphabet (in some sort of
pronunciation) 2) the 100-syllable mantra of Vajrasattva and 3) the verse in
question.
This is said to compensate for any imperfections in whatever has just
preceded it. In this usage there in not much focus on its meaning, though I
think the serious practitioner would be expected to know. It has, therefore
(and again I say *in this context*) at least some things in common with a
mantra. Perhaps it would be thought of as a dharani?
All the best
Alex W



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
buddha-l mailing list
buddha-l at mailman.swcp.com
http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l


End of buddha-l Digest, Vol 17, Issue 11
****************************************
Dear Alex,

Could you tell this poor non-Buddhologist what the classical criteria for a mantra are?   There might be an interesting thread about where such criteria come from and how some "non-mantras" have been excluded. Do northern and southern buddhisms have different standards?

I once attended a lecture by the Ninjitsu teacher Stephen Hayes (American Buddhism Conference in ...San Diego?  1998?), a man who was apparently a body guard of some sort for the Dalai Lama and is a Shingon teacher of some sort, & he defined a mantra as a "mind protective device."  He said everyone uses mantras, and one of the most common in America is "fuck it."  One says this repeatedly during the day to ward off frustration about those things one can't help much. He was being a bit tongue-in-cheek to point out that mantra, as a mental strategy, is less exotic than it may at first seem.  But, anyway, how do we know a mantra when we see one? How does one tell a mantra froma  dharani?  Can one breed a mantra and a dharani and come up with a madhrani or a dhantra?  
   I hope my question isn't too sub-Buddhological, but enquiring minds want to know want to know want to know want to know.... (x 108)

Thanks kindly,

John Whalen-Bridge

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 10:18:05 +1000
From: "Alex Wilding" <alex at chagchen.org>
Subject: RE: [Buddha-l] diacritics for verse (or rather, usage)

     Although it does not satisfy the classical criteria of a mantra, it is very
commonly used after, for instance, reciting a whole bunch of mantras. In
that context, there are three things recited one after each other, treated
almost as a single item: 1) the Sanskrit alphabet (in some sort of
pronunciation) 2) the 100-syllable mantra of Vajrasattva and 3) the verse in
question.   This is said to compensate for any imperfections in whatever has just
preceded it. In this usage there in not much focus on its meaning, though I
think the serious practitioner would be expected to know. It has, therefore
(and again I say *in this context*) at least some things in common with a
mantra. Perhaps it would be thought of as a dharani?
All the best         Alex W