[Buddha-l] rebirth

[Mike Austin]

In message <43DF75D9.8060606 at nerim.net>, Joy Vriens 
<joy.vriens at nerim.net> writes
>Mike Austin wrote:
>>  You make an arbitrary distinction here between 'teaching' and 
>>'concepts'  that are part of that teaching.  I was suggesting that the 
>>teaching uses  concepts to convey the 'truth',  but is not actually 
>>the 'truth.'
>
>I am not sure that the Buddha were teaching anything related to truth 
>or that would convey truth.

Am I missing something here? What about those Four Noble Thingies?


>> Thus,  the concept of 'rebirth' would be no less  than the concept of 
>>'dukkha',  for example.
>
>Yes, for me there is no difference between the concept of 'rebirth', as 
>originally intended and worry. It is one of the many forms of worry.

Yet,  I suppose you observe and experience something that corresponds to 
the concept/label 'dukkha' as described by Buddhist teachings? Then also 
perhaps this recognition slips from time to time. Perhaps the concept of 
rebirth is equally valid, coming from the same trustworthy source. It is 
possible that the recognition of this has slipped. Therefore, reflecting 
on it could be as worthwhile as reflecting on dukkha.


>Another digression. I remember when I first heard of rebirth and 
>started playing with the idea, it was a form of hope for me. So death 
>wasn't the end of it all. I could come back, sure with more or less 
>suffering, but that was not very different from my current situation. 
>It made me feel more relaxed. I had more time and more than one chance. 
>If I missed one there would be many others, especially if I missed 
>them. I was thus totally missing the intention of the rebirth 
>"teaching" and I wonder for how many other Westerners this is also the case.

I never even addressed the possibility of annihilation,  so hope was not 
something I looked for. But I do recall my first recognition of the word 
'reincarnation'. I was being driven round a roundabout by my father. The 
circulating manoeuvre was quite fitting. I was in my early teens. It was 
something that just seemed natural - nothing to hope for or to dread. If 
one feels that something is right - that there is some explanation or an 
answer to things,  it becomes more a case of finding the right questions 
rather than the right answers. For me rebirth, is not an answer. Rather, 
it presents a focus for finding the right questions.


>> Of course, one could be more hidden that another - i.e. one  may 
>>require more closer investigation.
>
>Although the Budda also advised not to investigate worry (the man with 
>the arrow). Is there anything we know (which is not understand) better 
>and more intimately?

The Buddha *did* advise to investigate worry and its causes. What he did 
not advise was to investigate avenues of causation that have no bearing 
on it.


>> A map is not the place where one wishes to go - nor can it be 
>>recognised  as the place where one wishes to go - but it is 
>>nevertheless useful.
>
>Ok, so "the truth" is only the map of the Truth. I would rather speak 
>of goal than of truth. It's only depending on a set objective that the 
>goal can be true, a goal is not true in and by itself.

How true that is!

-- 
Metta
Mike Austin