[Buddha-l] it's not about belief -= science & Christian religion

[curt]

SJZiobro at cs.com wrote:

>Bob Zeuschner <rbzeuschner at adelphia.net> wrote:
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>>Stanley J. Ziobro II wrote:
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>>
>>>It's a mistaken hypothesis inasmuch as it is not true that Christians in
>>>toto have hampered scientific progress.  Genetics, capitalism, astronomy,
>>>medicine, etc. have arisen in strongly Christian spheres of influence.
>>>Christendom is simply an attempt at categorization distinguishing
>>>histotrical eras by certain sociological, political, or cultural
>>>characteristics.  "Christendom" never did anything; Christians have, and
>>>your hypothesis fails because it does nothing more than make specious
>>>claims or half truths.
>>>      
>>>
>>Stan --
>>The problem with your mode of arguing is that it is trivially true; each 
>>and every statement about ALL "Christians in toto" is false.
>>    
>>
>
>Bob,
>
>Yes, and it simply made the point to Curt that his claims were equally false if his claim was that all Christians oppose science.  I took his mention of Christendom as shorthand for "all Christians."  But if I was mistaken, as per the following:
>
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>>Since this interpretation ["all Christians in toto"]is so easily shown 
>>to be false, it seems very likely that this is not the correct 
>>interpretation of the claim.
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>>
>
>Then it could well be the case that Curt was speaking of some perceived dominant attitude towards science.  That said, I wonder how much he has read in patristics or even mediaeval theology.  Many Church Fathers and later theologian utilized the science of their day in their theologizing, their exegesis, etc.  Basil the Great easily comes to mind, as does Aquinas.  So, even on this count, I judge that Curt's remarks were ultimately specious.
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Its hard for me to understand how anyone can claim that its difficult to 
ascribe responsibility to "Christendom". Throughout most of its history, 
Christianity has been a highly centralized, tightly controlled 
institution. Between the 6th and 18th centuries there were no 
free-thinking individualist Christians just running around following 
their bliss - ask the Albigensians. No one was allowed to question 
Church authority until quite recently - the penalty for doing so was 
imprisonment if you were lucky. Things were even worse after the 
so-called Reformation than they were before, for a variety of reasons. 
One reason was that Calvin, Luther and King Henry VIII somehow managed 
to outdo even the Catholic Church in terms of their use of violence and 
repression in the name of Religion. Another reason is that the Catholics 
were embarrassed by this, and so redoubled their efforts to show that 
they could be just as "bad" as any stinking Protestant. Yet another 
reason is that while European Christians were thus busy spilling each 
others blood in the name of their Lord, they were even busier spilling 
African, Asian and Native American blood for the same worthy cause. 
There's more - but that's enough for now.

"Well, we've been a lot nicer for the last couple of centuries, so 
everyone should forget about all that" - c'mon. You'll have to wriggle a 
lot harder to get off this hook. Christian missionaries - both Catholic 
and Protestant - are still actively engaged in trying to literally 
obliterate every other Religion from the face of the planet (including, 
of course, each other) - an enterprise they have been actively engaged 
in for two thousand years - and if anyone thinks they've stopped or even 
slowed down - go to India or Korea. If any Christians were really 
serious about facing up to their past deeds they would try to find some 
way to begin making restitution for all of the damage they have done 
(instead of pleading "oh no, you must be thinking of some other 
Christianity!"). Tearing down every single church that has ever been 
built intentionally on top of the sacred site of another Religion - and 
restoring the original temple or shrine or grove that was there before, 
and then saying "we're sorry" would be a good start. And withdrawing all 
missionaries from every country that was ever a colony of a European 
power would be a good way of demonstrating an appreciation for the true 
toll of Christianity's evil entanglement with European colonialism. But 
instead of any meaningful steps like those all we get are lame requests 
to let bygones be bygones - like a gangster who wants to go straight now 
that he's rich - he wants everyone to forget about the past now that he 
is a "legitimate business man". (Its a perfect analogy!)

- Curt