[Buddha-l] Dependent arising variants

[Robert Morrison]

> Robert,

> > Actually, I was referring to the 'Quarrels and Disputes' sutta from the
> > Sutta Nipaata
 Dan:
 
> I thought that might be the one. It is Q and A, so an example of how to
> tailor p-s to a variety of quesions, not an alternate formulation per se.
> The most interesting point you make is that alternate terms are used, but
> actually that is not unusual. In other p-s passages substitute terms are
> used for various links, often context driven.

I have to disagree here.  For example, practically all of the other
'samsaric' lists use vedanaa.  I'm not ware of another list that uses saata
and asaata.  Vedanaa shows a settled use that must be reached over time.  It
becomes the settled technical term for what in the Qs&Ds is saata and
asaata, just as chanda is replaced by the more settled term ta.nhaa. These
terms in my reading are not found in any other nidaana list.  The Qs&As also
list 'the dear' [piyaa], which is very interesting in relation to practical
experience.  And given that this is regarded as an early text, thse
differences are not surprising. In my view, what we have here is an early
attempt to give expression to what eventually became settled as
'conditioned-arising'.  Thus it is not just an 'alternative formulation',
but a proto-type for the others.


>> >>There is, for example, a 23 nidaana version at S ii. 31.
> 
> > What is it to know and see the destruction of the aasavas? ... 'With
> > spiritual ignorance as proximate cause [upanisaa], karmic formations
> > [come to be], . viññaa.na . naamaruupa - sa.laayatana - phasso - vedanaa

> > ta.nhaa - upaadaana - bhava - jaati - dukkha [replacing the usual 'old-.
> > age and death'] - saddhaa - paamojja - piiti - passaddhi - sukha - 
> > samaadhi - yathaa-bhuuta-ñaa.na-dassana - nibbidaa - viraago - vimutti -
> > khaye ñaa.na [of the aasavas]'.
> 
> The framing question is how to destroy the asavas. This is not a 23 nidana
> version, but two very well known models -- p-s and the jhaanas -- grafted
> together. 

Yes would agree that there are two models cleverly put together here by
replacing 'old-age and death' with dukkha, and using dukkha as the 'where
the Buddhist spiritual life begins', i.e. the first Noble Truth.  But what
I'm calling the nirvanic list is not reducible to jhaanas - these only go as
far as samaadhi.  After that comes 'seeing with ñaa.na things are they
really are', which takes what arises thereafter quite beyond jhaana
experience.  It leads to the cessation of the aasavas, which is tantamount
to attaining arahantship, i.e. full Awakening.   

> It is an exhortation to practice. One is not dead yet, so this
> is
> the way to destroy the asavas; get to it before you die. "Death," in fact,
> typically comes in the standard listings with various templates about this
> whole of suffering, woe, etc., so this "substitution" of dukkha for death
> -- the splice between the two models -- is not unusual.

It may not be unusual, but show me another list that does this.  This is one
reason why this particular list is unique.

Cheers,

Robert