[Buddha-l] Re: Pudgalavada

[L.S. Cousins]

Dan/Stephen,

>5. That Lance's dependent relation is not precluded, however, is 
>reinforced by another example that comes a few sentences later:
>
>"As Buddha said to ÂÇriputra, 'There is a person named è¤ (xiang: 
>form, image, resemble, to imitate, pattern after, symbolize; 
>elephant; Skt. gaja, hastin, nÇga) [who is] white, pure and 
>agreeable. What is established from the mahÇbh•tas is named "self." 
>All of these are like the example of 'milk'."
>
>The term xiang is suggestive here. It could be, as Thich T.C. takes 
>it, to be a translation of the name NÇga, or it could mean something 
>like a person's name bears some resemblance, or is patterned after 
>his appearance and demeanor (pure, white, agreeable). Then the 
>following line stating that "self" is established on the basis of 
>the four mahÇbh•tas would follow suit.
>
>The example of "milk," however, is a strong indication of the kind 
>of proof-texts the Sammitiyas drew on from the Agamas, since it 
>points to the Po??apÇda Sutta of the Digha-Nikaya (or its Agama 
>equivalent), which has an interesting discussion of different types 
>of "selves" that Buddha permits one to speak of. The names of the 
>types of selves (in Walshe's translation: "gross acquired self," 
>"mind-made self," past acquired self," present acquired self, and " 
>future acquired self") are reminiscent of our passages. More 
>intriguing, Buddha's conversation partner in this sutta is named 
>"Citta, son of the elephant-trainer," perhaps indicating how we 
>should understand the xiang (as a metonymy for "son of the 
>elephant-trainer"). The milk example is well known in Mahayana 
>sutras as well (e.g., the Nirvana Sutra), and runs, in this Pali 
>sutta, thus:
>
>"In just the same way, Citta, from the cow we get milk, from the 
>milk curds, from the curds butter, from the butter ghee, and from 
>the ghee cream of ghee. And when there is milk we don't speak of 
>curds, of butter, of ghee or of cream of ghee, we speak of milkl 
>when there are curds we don't speak of butter..." and so on.

 From the unpublished Ms of the Diirghaagama (very preliminary 
transcript by Somdev Vasudeva and myself with obvious errors - either 
ours or of the scribe):
Tadyatha Hasti"sayyaatiputra go k.siira.m k.siiro dadhir dadhnor 
navaniita.m. Yasmi.m samaye k.siira.m bhavati, na tasmi.m samaye 
dadhi bhavati, na dadhy upaiti, na dadhitve sa.mkhyaa.m gacchati, na 
navaniita.m bhavati na navaniitam upaiti, na navaniitatve sa.mkhyaa.m 
gacchati, k.siiram eva tasmi.m samaye bhavati, k.siiram upaiti, 
k.siiratve sa.mkhyaa.m gacchati.

>From this analogy, Buddha continues:
>
>"So too, whenever the gross acquired self (o?Çriko attapa?ilÇbho) is 
>present, we do not speak of the mind-made (manomayo attapa?ilÇbho) 
>or formless acquired self (ar•po attapa?ilÇbho); whenever the 
>mind-made acquired self is present, we do not speak of the gross or 
>formless self; whenever the formless acquired self is present, we do 
>not speak of the gross acquired self or the mind-made acquired self, 
>we speak of the formless acquired self."

Yasmi.m samaye puru.sasyaaruupii sa.mjñaamaya aatmaa bhavati, naasya 
tasmi.m samaye ruupii audaarika"s caaturmahaabhuu{[tika]} [aa]tmaa 
bhavati, naatmaam upaiti, naatmatve sa.mkhyaa.m gacchati, naapi 
ruupii manomayo aatmaa bhavati, naatmaa upaiti, naatmatve sa.mkhyaa.m 
gacchati | aruupy evaasya tasmi.m samaye sa.mjñaapaya aatyaa 
{[bhava]}ti, aatmaam upaiti, aatmatve sa.mkhyaa.m gacchati

>  But Buddha concludes this statement like, it would seem, a good pudgalavadin:
>
>"But, Citta, these are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, 
>designations [paññatti=prajnapti] in common use in the world, which 
>the Tathagata uses without misapprehending them." (ImÇ kho citta 
>lokasamaññÇ lokaniruttiyo lokavohÇrÇ lokapaññattiyo yÇhi tathÇgato 
>voharati aparÇmasanti.)
>(Walshe's translation, my Pali interpolations)

Evam eva Hasti"sayyaatiputra ye kecid aatmeti vaa sa.mjaanate satva 
iti vaa jiiva iti vaa ja.mtur iti vaa po.sa iti vaa pudgala iti vaa 
[m] [8] iti vaa yathaa yathaiva jana sa.mjaaniite na tathaa tathaa 
sthaama"sa.h paraam.r"syaabhinivi"syaanuvyavahara.mti; idam eva 
satya.m; moham anyad iti. Api tv anuvyavaharanti ~ yaavad evaarthasya 
khyaapanaartham i ? ? ? .m [5] lokasa.mjñaa lokamataani lokaniruktayo 
lokavyavahaaraa yair yaanuvyavahara.mto na ki.mcil loka upaadadate. 
Anupaadadaanaa [423V] na paritasyanti.

no prajñapti !

>  So the de (obtain, acquire) may involve some form of pa?ilÇbha 
>(obtaining, receiving, taking up, acquisition, assumption, 
>attainment). The milk example provides a way of talking about 
>progressive purifying of something which is neither the same nor 
>completely different from one stage to the next.

So the Sanskrit gives a slightly different perspective.

By the way, Dan, what font are you using ? Somertimes your diacritics 
come through and sometimes they don't.

Lance
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