[Buddha-l] Zen War Guilt/Zen and the Sword

[Vicente Gonzalez]

Dan L. wrote:

DL> is something entirely different than what the Pali Buddha
DL> was speaking about in Cakkavatti Sihanada Sutta.

India in the 500 b.c is not the medieval Japan. It is a difference of
1.000 years, and another type of Buddhism in another culture.

DL> To get more complicated: The former is magical protection -- protect the
DL> institution and practioners of Buddhism, and in turn Buddhism, like a
DL> talismen, will protect your kingdom from all its enemies, natural and
DL> supernatural.

I think you are speculating about what Shotoku understood.  At the
other side, Magic in those times was a normal thing and another
measure to consider a religion. 
Before Shotoku, Buddhism had an increasing popularity in the
Japanese aristocracy, and the imperial family was in the need of some
control over the new religion to affirm his authority. Here, already
we can see Buddhism existing in Japan before the Shotoku conversion.
By the need in establishing his authority, the imperial family
embrace Buddhism. It was epitomized with the Shotoku conversion.
("Hagiography and History: The image of Prince Shotoku", William
E.Deal.).

Therefore, that claim about Buddhism entering in Japan with different
motivations of another countries, probably it is not right.
But when Buddhism increased his importance, it becomes a state affair
in a logical way, and the new religion should be blessed by the ruling
powers.
The Shotoku episode cannot be the only basis to claim a distintive
character of Japanese Buddhism. However, it is what V.Brian needs to
explain his "fundamental error" and to develop his work and his
foreseeable conclusion.

In some passages of the Chronicles, Shotoku appears as a Buddhist
devote student. We can assume the legend and exaggerations.
However, as the the proverb says, when the river sounds it brings
water.  I don't see any special difficult to conceive this man as a
warrior and a politic. And at same time, truly interested in the new
religion. If we know that Buddhism already was present in the
aristocracy of his days, then why he cannot be interested as other
people close to him. 
It is fairly more credible than the portrait of an histeric ruler
searching talismans for his victories. If this was the case, probably
Buddhism would not have established with him or the memory of that
epoch would be negative.  On the contrary, he deserved an high
estimation for long time as we know in the next eight century when the
Chronicles were composed.

DL> the Pali  Buddha is recommending ethical self-development, Shotoku
DL>  is  buying divine protection by patronizing rituals and
DL> institutions. How do  we know that the latter is the case?

I think you are seeing the medieval times with your 20th century mind.
There is nothing strange in magics and devotions. Those things were a
normal issue in those times. How do you expect that Shotoku imposed
his political authority but assuming the religious costumes present in
his time?. There 1000 years of difference with Indian Buddhism, be aware.
Do you think Elizabeth II and his religious affairs should follow the
same pattern than King Arthur and his round table?.

We cannot think in the later Buddhist developments in Japan if we
think that all the Japanese Buddhism is just a corrupt thing derived
from a nationalist Shotoku conversion. Many wonderful things in 
the doctrine and practice would be impossible to conceive.
Religion in Japan or in any other country can be connected with the
State. I agree that in difficult times (wars, etc), this connection
favors the corrupted views. However, we cannot think that ALL the
Japanese Buddhism is corrupted. This idea only can be ingenuous or
tendencious.


DL>> Shotoku and the Japanese acceptance of Buddhism. When bad things happened,
DL>> it was blamed on letting Buddha statues, etc., into the country, and they
DL>> were temporarily banned, until they proved their talismanic efficacy.

if you talk about the Mononobe and Soga fights, it happened in another
way. Shotoku promised a temple devoted to the four kings, the Buddhist
divine protectors, in exchange for the victory over Mononobe people.
This type of religious promise before some battle or a difficult task
is a normal issue in any religion in that epoch. Of course, the
correct Buddhist view is avoid any battle. If we talk about kings,
military people,  etc, this people can have a Buddhist faith.

About magics and talisman, if we are not aware of the different mind
in past times, also we can say the fathers of your country they
included God in the Declaration of Independence because a magic and
business. They say: 
"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the
Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our
Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

Following the V.Brian style, they search the protection of the divine
providence to preserve their fortunes and honor. making a society.
Perhaps God was used as a talisman for Jefferson and the others?.
It has something to do with the message of Christ about leaving money
and not be engaged in wars?. etc,etc...
>From this demagogy, and using an always present mixture of religion,
politics and business with the divinity, we can say that all the
American preachers they are a prolongation of the same pro-war elite.

The proof is that we know a millionaire preacher called Robertson. He
is in contact with Halliburton and the governmental elites to preach
the war against the poor countries. etc...  We can fund more dark
episodes of evangelic people in libraries until reaching the Jefferson
times, and getting the conclusion of the total corruption and
militarization of evangelic Christians in the USA arising from
Jefferson times. Later, we can say that such investigation is useful
for people who ignores many real things, and deceivingly they believe
that every evangelic preacher is Martin Luther King.

Also we can add the suggestion appearing in this list in reference
to the tea ceremony,  and in the same way we should be aware of all
these things before buying an Aretha Franklin's gospel CD.


DL> It was bumping up against  the institutional  hostility to Peace
DL> (despite the change in  rhetoric post-war, the practice  and
DL> attitudes had remained  largely the same) that initially
DL> disillusioned  him, and set him  on the research course that has
DL> become the two books he  wrote.  He is not seeking revenge against
DL> Soto or Zen, but trying to get them  to live up to their own ideals.

it can be his own experience. We have many western literature about
experiences in Zen monasteries. Also in a realistic tone but showing
different conclusions. "The Empty Mirror: Experiences in a Japanese
Zen Monastery", J. van de Wetering. even a road-movie, "Enlightenment
Guaranteed", Doris Dörrie., etc..
That messianic position of "it happened to me, therefore the world is
in this way", it is not serious. If the true reason is a  wish to
reform a  1500 years old institution, then maybe we are talking about
some Dogen or Shinran.

I agree  that Buddhism in the West should be a different thing in some
trends. Surely as many other people here, I have traveled by Asian
countries and I agree that a western person cannot integrate some
things more related with cultural issues than with the understanding
of the teaching. However, it is a process following a slow, natural
evolution. Then I wonder about this stress to be disconnected of
Eastern Buddhism to get... what?.

DL> When is the last time you heard of Zen institutional participation in
DL> anything antiwar (and I DON'T mean Hiroshima memorials),

I remember some Japanese monks in the TV, just few months ago and
precisely in Israel, praying for peace.

DL> women from the Phillipines and Thailand who had been brought to Japan under
DL> false pretenses,

Zen, Christianism or any other spiritual way can be integrated for
anyone  in his own life. We know it happens in different levels, and
also there are different people. We know the condition of the world
fully explained by Buddha, and the religious buildings and their
inhabitants are not any exception. Although obviously, the statistic
is not the same. 

Then, hoping to find Nirvana by entering in some religious building
it's is just an infantile idea. Although it doesn't mean all the
temples and monasteries are corrupted.
This same line of no-thought is used by the people that you denounces
when they pursue Jews by racist motivations. They only need a pair of
histories to judge a whole people. They are not able to see persons,
only they can see the Jewish, the Japanese, the blacks, etc.. In the
same way, I think an error seeing the "Japanese Zen" as one entity
empty of individuals so she can be judged in a quick way to defend
something still nonexistent.
The result of this procedure is easy to imagine. I fear in this times
there is not enough imagination even to confuse in a efficient way.


br,