[Buddha-l] "Nature" and eating meat

[Joy Vriens]

Stefan Detrez wrote:

>     Another interesting point in the Andes cannibalism case is the legal
>     aspect of it. Did any laws apply that forbid the eating of human flesh,
>     were there any charges pressed to the eaters by the families of the
>     deceased or by a general attorney? And if not why?

> When people get into survival mode, moral concerns are far away. 
> Brecht's 'Erst dass Fressen, dann die Moral' illustrates this very 
> nicely.

I am a big fan of the Dreigroschen-Oper! Thanks for putting this tune in 
my head.

> Even IF they were concerned with legal matters, they would still 
> take that chance to keep alive. Maybe that's a good reason why self 
> defence with lethal results for the assaulter are not punished according 
> to standards for judging 'killers'.
> If you're on a life boat and it's overloaded and you push someone off, 
> nobody will press charges for having succesfully saved your life and 
> that of others. That would be quite contradictory. You might choose to 
> sacrifice yourself. Would that be illegal suicide?

I agree with all this, but I was just wondering about the legal treament 
it would get from a moral point of view of those who weren't in the 
Andes or on the lifeboat. In both cases people are in risk of dying. One 
eats someone's liver and survives. Another one receives someone's 
transplanted liver and survives. You can be sure that in case a surgeon 
would use an organ of someone who recently died in a hospital to save 
the life of a patient without the permission of the deceased (written 
declaration) or of the family, that he will be prosecuted. I don't 
remember anything of the sort happening after the Andes disaster. Is it 
perhaps because the story is more dramatic, or the situation more 
urgent? Morally, it looks likes a very similar case to me.

>     The case of the Bodhisattva is a mythical story that tells me more about
>     non duality (exchange/equivalence of self and other) than about any
>     moral issue as far as I am concerned.
> 
> 
> Some myths set examples. Think of what the Jains do when they offer dead 
> bodies to vultures. I don't know about the case of Buddhists. But it can 
> be understood as a form of noblesse (obligé) to sacrifice your life to 
> help others (fill thier tummies).

The same "funeral" ritual existed in Tibet too. One could be fed to the 
fish too I once read. I agree, it is very noble and at the same time an 
exercice or a proof of detachment from one's body. But eating the body 
of someone who is not ready to have their body eaten is something else.

> 
>     Yes humanism, the Human project is a project. We can't judge the whole
>     project on the basis of somme rotten pears (as the Curt doctrine would
>     require us to do). ;-) Some religions or religious currents want to go
>     even further than that and would like to cut off that behaviour which is
>     illustrative of 'man' and have even "higher" aspirations. 
> 
> 
> And your point being?

That for some religions even the human project needs to be surpassed 
(cut off). In Buddhism the human rebirth is dissatisfying  and not an 
aspiration. Similar approach in Neoplatonistic views.


>  >From an evolutionary point of view controlling women's sexuality in 
> such a violent way might serve the propagation of male genes. So in this 
> sense, it's basically a cultural expression of the male's biological 
> procreative urge. That it's done might be something cultural relativists 
> have understanding for (not me who tend to universalize my humanist 
> values), how it's done is an issue concerning ethics.

I agree.

> Maybe it's not necessary (yet sometimes beneficial in moderate 
> quantities) , but I wouldn't want to be the one to go and convert meat 
> eating Tibetans or blood drinking Masai to eat strictly vegetarian. Doe 
> jij dat maar :)

And end up with my bloody cloths being exposed in a Mission Museum? (Ken 
jij het Missiemuseum in Tegelen, bij Venlo?). Not being a vegetarian or 
a much of a bodhisattva myself I think we ought to let Richard and other 
vegetarians on Buddha-L deal with it. We could send them over there on 
an expedition with pinto beans, tofu and soya sauce.