[Buddha-l] Re: on eating meat

[Richard P. Hayes]

On Sat, 2005-10-22 at 10:00 +0100, Mike Austin wrote:

> For the purpose of discussing conventional truth, under the designations 
> karma and cause and effect are used, it is quite OK to designate actions 
> in this way.  There are those who fatuously say, "It's all empty anyway" 
> in order to avoid further analysis. I hope you are not one of these.  If 
> you wish to leave the discussion, just do so.  But please don't trump it 
> with sunyata.

I was not referring to the two truth theory. Even at the level of
conventional truth, your thinking has been simplistic and shallow. The
reference to Madhyamika thought was a reminder that even at the
conventional level, everything is interconnected and that one ignores
that at one's peril.

> 
> 
> >> Consider the general case where
> >> one person acts on another's behalf, without being ordered, requested or
> >> hinted to do so, and with no intention in the mind of the benefactor. Is
> >> the benefactor of that act responsible for it?
> >
> >What is the relevance of this question to what is being discussed?
> 
> Please don't pretend to be obtuse. When someone kills because they think 
> someone else wants them to. That is the relevance.

I am not pretending to be obtuse. I really am obtuse. I still don't
quite get the connection. But now that you bring up someone who kills
because they think someone wants them to, you are showing signs of
agreeing with waht several people have been telling you. No abattoir
worker kills for fun or out of anger. They kill because there is a
demand for their product. So if you purchase their produce, they
reasonably interpret that to mean that you want them to kill. So you
are, according to Vasubandhu's way of thinking about karma, responsible
for the action.

> Richard, I am well aware of the above distinctions. You have hit several 
> targets correctly - but not the one I set up for you to hit. That is the 
> one where A has no intention and B acts nevertheless. If you do not wish 
> to address it, then don't.

I have not addressed it, because it is not relevant to our discussion.
What you are evidently trying to say is that the abattoir workers and
the butcher do their work without your bidding, and therefore you have
no responsibility for their actions. That, as many have tried to show
you, is plumb fatuous. If you buy their product, you invite them to do
their work.  So please don't try to tell us that the abattoir workers
and the butchers get all the bad karma while all you get is the juicy
steak that they have provided for you. That way of looking at karma
we're just not willing to buy, not because of an emotional attachment to
some position, but because your reasoning really is quite inadequate on
this point.

-- 
Richard