[Buddha-l] Devadatta the Renegade: The Thruth History of Buddhism

[Benito Carral]

On Tuesday, October 11, 2005, Joy Vriens wrote:

>> It's  quite  interesting how westeners are trying to
>> reinterpret Buddhism.

> If  I  were Buddhism I would be happy that Westerners
> grant me that honour.

   I  think that you are a Westerner involved in such a
project  and,  since  I'm  a  Westerner  too, I hope to
contribute  to  your  happiness  having  said that. :-)
However  I  was  not  specifically thinking in you, but
bringing to our post a contemporary trend.


>> The  Old  Guys could not use the authority recourse,
>> could  not  take  the rebirth issue seriously, could
>> not  advocate radical non-violence (even if they are
>> killing us)...

> I  have hardly any doubt about the Buddha's belief in
> rebirth or non-violence.

   It  would  be  interesting  to make an inquiry about
such  point  among  Western  Buddhist practitioners. In
fact, I will make a test among my students and friends,
not   a   representative   group,  but  an  interesting
experiment anyway.

> But  it  doesn't  make  sense  to  me that he had the
> authority  that  you  want to give him right from the
> start.

   What   are  you  points  to  doubt  the  traditional
Buddhist history?


>> It  seems quite clear to me that the problem is that
>> westerners  can  not  and want not to admit that the
>> Old Guy had a different agenda.

> You  are  probably right, but I don't know the agenda
> of  those  Westerners  nor  do  I know the one of the
> Buddha.

   It's  my  experience  with students that they try to
fit  Buddhism  into  their  lives  instead of fit their
lives into Buddhism.


>> What's  the difference between legend and history? I
>> would  say that history is just the accepted legend,
>> and  it seems that that has been the accepted legend
>> for many centuries in the Buddhist world.

> One  can  also try and analyse the legends instead of
> taking  them  at face value. That won't result in any
> historic  truths,  but  one can reflect on what story
> they  tell  and  their possible reasons to wanting to
> tell  us whatever they tell us. Why is it important a
> story is told and to whom is it told?

   I  don't believe in "historical truths," but I agrre
that  such  an analysis is an interesting one. In fact,
after  their  first  year of study, I teach my students
some  elements  of  analysis  before  starting with the
Buddhist tradition.


>>> Apparently  there were still traces of followers of
>>> Devadatta [...]

>> They  could  be  there, why not?, as Karaites in the
>> Jewish tradition or Bushes in the Christian one.

> Well, if they were there in the 7th century, then the
> Devadatta issue was more than simply about "a jealous
> cousin"  and  then  it  perhaps did play an important
> role in early Buddhism.

   Do  you have any evidence to support your claim that
Devadatta played an important role in early Buddhism?

   The  traditional  Buddhist history also tell us that
Devadatta   repented   and   asked   the   Buddha   for
forgiveness.

> And  what  about  all  those  suttas where the Buddha
> rests  his back against a tree and Sariputta teaches,
> after which the Buddha says "Well said Sariputta".

   I  prefer  to  think that the sangha was too big and
that  the Old Guy was wise enough to delegate some work
to such two wonderful attendants as they.

   Some  times  I ask one of my old students to explain
some  points to our little sangha. In fact, this year I
will  ask  one  of them to take care of new students in
their first year.

> I  have  plenty  more ideas about a Buddhist Da Vinci
> Code, but this will do for today. ;-)

   Hahaha.  In  fact,  I  have  also started a new book
titled,  "Devadatta  the Renegade: The Truth History of
Buddhism." :-)


>> But  Buddhist  history, as any other history, is not
>> written by minorities.

> The  eldest  history  was written by those minorities
> who  were  first  inclined  to write, i.e. rather the
> Sariputtas than the Devadattas.

   And  what did happen with Devedatta's followers? Did
they  all  attained  parinibbana  at once and the order
disappeared with them without leaving any trace?

   Best wishes,

   Beni