[Buddha-l] Re: Greetings from Oviedo

[Joy Vriens]

Benito Carral wrote:

>>>[...]  I  wouldn't  like  to see a democratic sangha
>>>[...]  I  can't imagine monks and nuns saying to the
>>>Old Guy what he should teach [...]

>>Yet it is very likely that is the way it happened.

>    I doubt it very much.

Seeing it summarized like this, my case for a democratic sangha looks 
pretty hopeless...

>>There  seemed  to  have been a sort of egality in the
>>early  communities  (they called each other "friend",
>>the Elder approach being something from later times).

>    According  to the early tradition, these are some of
> the Old Guy's quotes:

>     I  have  no  teacher, one like me does not exist in
>     all  the  world, for I am the Peerless Teacher, the
>     Arahat. I alone am Supremely Enlightened. Quenching
>     all  defilements, Nibbâna's calm have I attained. I
>     go  to  the city of Kâsi (Benares) to set in motion
>     the  Wheel  of  Dhamma.  In a world where blindness
>     reigns, I shall beat the Deathless Drum.

>     Address not the Tathâgata (Perfect One) by the word
>     'âvuso'   (friend).  The  Tathâgata,  monks,  is  a
>     Consummate  One  (Arahat),  a Supremely Enlightened
>     One.  Give  ear,  monks,  the  Deathless  has  been
>     attained.  I  shall instruct you, I shall teach you
>     the Dhamma; following my teaching you will know and
>     realize  for  yourselves even in this lifetime that
>     supreme  goal  of  purity  for  the  sake  of which
>     clansmen  retire  from  home to follow the homeless
>     life.

Which according to the AN X69 Kathavatthu Sutta, is not really a topic 
of proper conversation, in that it is not talk on modesty. Do you really 
believe that the historical Buddha could have spoken like this? He 
started off as a forest ascetic among other ascetics. They must have 
called each other friends. At what point did the Buddha-to be start to 
have an ascendancy over the others? At what point did they no longer 
call him friend and started calling him Perfect One rather than teacher 
or whatever? Don't you rather think that this is the result of a gradual 
aggrandizement/divinisation of the Buddha as time goes by?

>>Also   the  contradictory  views  and  practices  and
>>schisms  in  early Buddhism show that there must have
>>been quite a lot of debate, which is only possible if
>>there isn't an "Old Guy" dictating the rules.

>    Yes,  because  the  Old  Guy was death and he didn't
> choose  a successor. We also have the Devadatta's case,
> but it's clear that he didn't succeed.

I don't know. I find it hard to imagine a Buddha, who comes up out of 
nothing stating he is the Supremely Enlightened One to those who used to 
know him as an ascetic like them, and who all of a sudden has such 
authority that they don't even debate with him.

Not so sure about Devadatta. The surviving canon obviously is the one of 
those most eager ones to write down and systematise  teachings 
attributed to the Buddha. Imagine a group of Buddhists would leave the 
main group led by the Buddha's official successor Devadatta in total 
disagreement with the latter. How do you think they would describe him 
in their writings? Probably very much in the way he has been described 
in the Buddhist canon as we know it. This is is 100% speculation and 
creative thinking on my part, but the fact that Devadatta actually was 
demonized tells me that he played a rather important role before his 
demonization.

>>There  also is Ananda's influence of allowing more of
>>a female point of view in the Sangha etc.

>    Well,  that  seems  to me one of the most intriguing
> passages  in  early  Buddhism.  Didn't also the Old Guy
> make a prophecy about that?

Prophecies? Do you need better proof for Apocrypha?

Joy