From jehms at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 1 01:32:54 2005 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (jehms_pop.xs4all.nl) Date: Tue Nov 1 01:35:02 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] seeking the Pali and Sanskrit term for "holy/ religious/ sacred objects" Message-ID: <43672873@twigger.nl> >===== Original Message From Buddhist discussion forum ===== >Hi folks >Seeing as the list is quiet lately, perhaps this would be the time to >make an inquiry of those with a background in Sanskrit and /or Pali.... > >I'm seeking the terms for "holy/ religious/ sacred objects"... Some >context might help: > > >But what I am looking for is a term that could encompass all of the >objects that certain forms of Buddhism deem to have purifying spiritual >powers. In FPMT Buddhism (my area of anthropological research relates to >the Great Stupa they want to build in Australia, and more generally the >role of Buddhist sacra in the spread of Buddhism in the contemporary >world using this particular case study), Lama Zopa urges his followers >to sponsor, construct etc "Holy Objects" (including stupas, prayer >wheels, statues etc). > >(For a bit of background, Zopa is often quoted as saying things like, >"the world needs more holy objects" and "The continued existence and >flourishing of the teachings of the Buddha depend upon the continued >existence of the holy objects of Buddha"; "Construction of the >[Maitreya] statue is not the goal - it is the method for achieving the >goal. The goal is to benefit as many people as possible for as long as >possible.") > Hi Sally, for what it's worth, in my experience Tibetans have always been obsessed by stones and buildings and land. So they're good in converting stones. If this is a general Buddhist thing is doubtfull, considering the amount of effort the Buddha himself put into building and statues. Even among Buddhist masters in India the percentage of (free) masons is remarkably low. The Buddha had dicovered that the easiest way to influence peoples minds is to talk to them. Maybe this is an art which has been neglected in Tibetan folklore.;) For this reason I think that findign a common name for holy things is extremely difficult, because there is no common concept. erik groet erik From StormyTet at aol.com Tue Nov 1 01:46:11 2005 From: StormyTet at aol.com (StormyTet@aol.com) Date: Tue Nov 1 01:53:51 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List Message-ID: <1c9.34b30375.30988553@aol.com> In a message dated 10/31/2005 11:58:54 A.M. Central Standard Time, srhodes@boulder.net writes: A bumper sticker seen around town: Vegetarians Taste Better Steven Rhodes Vegetarians definitely do taste better. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051101/e9f93897/attachment.html From YeshiUK at aol.com Tue Nov 1 03:03:51 2005 From: YeshiUK at aol.com (YeshiUK@aol.com) Date: Tue Nov 1 08:29:24 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pictures and words Message-ID: <3535EFAB.362C8AF0.001B60CA@aol.com> Says a lot with few words... http://www.afsc.org/iraq/movie.htm Charles Manson From horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca Tue Nov 1 12:10:34 2005 From: horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca (Gad Horowitz) Date: Tue Nov 1 09:03:57 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List References: <1130767728.4576.4.camel@localhost.localdomain><43662853.7040409@cola.iges.org> <1130773637.5342.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <004301c5df17$f152bb60$7dee6480@chass> speaking of karma, here is a nice quotation from Shinran: "Because you lack the karmic necessity to kill even a single person, you do not commit murder. That is why you do not kill, not because YOU are GOOD. On the other hand, even though you did not want to kill, it may so happen that you nevertheless kill hundreds or thousands of people>" and he would apply this to Rumsfeld, Rove, and me and thee, would he not? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard P. Hayes" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List > On Mon, 2005-10-31 at 09:21 -0500, curt wrote: > > > I thought we were all busy writing thank you notes to Patrick Fitzgerald > > and Joseph Wilson. > > No thank you notes are in order until Karl Rove is behind bars at > Guant?namo and Don Rumsfeld is locked up with a room full of dogs in Abu > Ghraib. As Robert Dylan almost said "It's karma-vipaaka that we need to > get back to work again." > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Tue Nov 1 10:17:09 2005 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue Nov 1 10:23:57 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List References: <1130767728.4576.4.camel@localhost.localdomain><43662853.7040409@cola.iges.org><1130773637.5342.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <004301c5df17$f152bb60$7dee6480@chass> Message-ID: <002d01c5df08$dd1af130$ed574e51@zen> Gad Horowitz wrote > "Because you lack the karmic necessity to kill even a single person, you > do > not commit murder. That is why you do not kill, not because YOU are GOOD. This part of the Shinran quote is reminiscent of something that Gandhi said -- to paraphrase: only the strong have a right to call themselves true pacificists; the weak are pacificists only out of necessity. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From ghoti at consultron.ca Tue Nov 1 09:50:38 2005 From: ghoti at consultron.ca (Tom Troughton) Date: Tue Nov 1 10:53:57 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List In-Reply-To: <004301c5df17$f152bb60$7dee6480@chass> Message-ID: <200511011750.jA1Hofrd006138@mail3.magma.ca> On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 11:10:34 -0800, Gad Horowitz wrote: >speaking of karma, here is a nice quotation from Shinran: >"Because you lack the karmic necessity to kill even a single person, you do >not commit murder. That is why you do not kill, not because YOU are GOOD. >On the other hand, even though you did not want to kill, it may so happen >that you nevertheless kill hundreds or thousands of people>" and he would >apply this to Rumsfeld, Rove, and me and thee, would he not? What is the context of this quote? Best wishes Tom Troughton From jinavamsa at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 11:31:16 2005 From: jinavamsa at yahoo.com (Mitchell Ginsberg) Date: Tue Nov 1 11:33:58 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Of Buddha, Miracles, and Ferry Rides In-Reply-To: <200511011606.jA1G6jSP021147@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <20051101183116.52210.qmail@web60022.mail.yahoo.com> From: "bclough" Subject: Of Buddha, Miracles, and Ferry Rides Searching for the source: Somewhere (Conze's *Buddhist Scriptures* perhaps) I read of an episode, presumably from a Pali source, of an episode where the Buddha encounters a tapasvin on a river bank. The tapasvin boasts that he can cross to the other side by walking on water (or flying over, I can't recall which). The Buddha replies that that's wonderful, but for a few rupees (or some such denomination), I can pay the ferry-man and also get across easily. (I'm paraphrasing). Does anyone recognize this story, and know where it appears? Many Thanks, Brad, bclough@aucegypt.edu ====== I definitely recall the story. I read that book back in the early 1970s, so the page location (if that's the source) does not come back to me immediately. I will try to track the story down. There's something pleasantly simple about the Buddha's response. I like that even more than the one about "The miracle of my teacher is that when hungry he eats, and when tired, he naps." Btw, I see your new book as the word 'soteriology' in it. That is presumably not problematic for you (despite Richard's comments about the word in Land of No Buddha). And how is Cairo? (a tad different from the Hudson River Valley of Cropsey, I suppose).... Mitchell G. ==================== http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa/mentalhealth.html with links to my home page, info on The Inner Palace (3rd ed.) and The Far Shore (3rd ed.), further links to psychotherapy, to my current teaching, to the Insight Practice (Vipassana), Chishtiyya (Sufi), Creative Solutions for Peace, and Nasrudin discussion groups, and to the Collective Dharma Insight project. __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu Tue Nov 1 11:39:05 2005 From: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu (Peter D. Junger) Date: Tue Nov 1 12:44:00 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 01 Nov 2005 17:17:09 GMT." <002d01c5df08$dd1af130$ed574e51@zen> Message-ID: <200511011839.jA1Id6Na025863@samsara.law.cwru.edu> "Stephen Hodge" writes: : Gad Horowitz wrote : : > "Because you lack the karmic necessity to kill even a single person, you : > do : > not commit murder. That is why you do not kill, not because YOU are GOOD. : : This part of the Shinran quote is reminiscent of something that Gandhi : said -- to paraphrase: only the strong have a right to call themselves true : pacificists; the weak are pacificists only out of necessity. Shinran's quote suggests nothing like the remark you attribute to Gandhi. According to Shinran killers and pacifists are both acting out of karmic necessity and none of us---including Shinran---has the power to do otherwise, except through power of the infinite Wisdom and Compassion that surrounds us. The point is that we have in ourselves no power whatsoever to overcome our---if I may use the word---condtioning. Here is a more extensive version of the quoted passage: This is taken from Taitetsu Unno's translation of the Tannisho. It starts with the second paragraph in Chapter XIII. Good thoughts arise in our minds due to the effect of past good, and we are made to think and do evil due to the working of karmic evil. The late master said, ``We should know that even as trifling a thing as the speck of dust on the tip of a rabbit's hair or a sheep's fleece is the product of the evil of past karma.'' Another time he asked me, ``Would you accept anything I say, Yu-ien?'' ``Of course I will,'' I replied. ``Are you sure that you won't disobey me?,'' he repeated, and when I again agreed he continued, ``Go, then, and kill a thousand people and your birth in the Pure Land is settled.'' ``Even though that is your order,'' I protested, ``and even though with all that is in me, I cannot kill even a single person.'' ``Then why did you just say that you would not disobey what I, Shinran, said?'' And then he went on, ``By this we know that if we could act according to our thoughts, we could kill a thousand people for the sake of birth in the Pure Land--if so required. We do not kill, not because our thoughts are good but because we do not have the karma to kill a single person. Yet, even though we do not want to injure anyone, we may be led to kill a hundred or a thousand people.'' -- Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu URL: http://samsara.law.cwru.edu From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Tue Nov 1 13:29:15 2005 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue Nov 1 13:33:59 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: +AFs-Buddha-l+AF0- Silence of the List References: +ADw-200511011839.jA1Id6Na025863+AEA-samsara.law.cwru.edu+AD4- Message-ID: <001601c5df23$1104bde0$174d4e51@zen> "Peter D. Junger" [why always inverted commas ?] wrote: > Shinran's quote suggests nothing like the remark you attribute to > Gandhi. Ok -- I agree that Shinran is saying something different, now having seen the context. But I only said "reminiscent" (tending to remind one of something) -- some people are pacificists out of necessity, not because their thoughts are good. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From jpeavler at mindspring.com Tue Nov 1 13:53:14 2005 From: jpeavler at mindspring.com (Jim Peavler) Date: Tue Nov 1 13:53:59 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: +AFs-Buddha-l+AF0- Silence of the List In-Reply-To: <001601c5df23$1104bde0$174d4e51@zen> References: +ADw-200511011839.jA1Id6Na025863+AEA-samsara.law.cwru.edu+AD4- <001601c5df23$1104bde0$174d4e51@zen> Message-ID: <8e58e902979b517da2c95c6c046a24f1@mindspring.com> On Nov 1, 2005, at 1:29 PM, Stephen Hodge wrote: > Ok -- I agree that Shinran is saying something different, now having > seen the context. But I only said +ACI-reminiscent+ACI- (tending to > remind one of something) -- some people are pacificists out of > necessity, not because their thoughts are good. I am reminded of William Blake: "God provides for the lion; the fox provides for himself." But I know it is just because of my karma. From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Nov 1 15:31:44 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue Nov 1 16:14:02 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Of Buddha, Miracles, and Ferry Rides In-Reply-To: <20051101183116.52210.qmail@web60022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051101183116.52210.qmail@web60022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1130884304.31861.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 10:31 -0800, Mitchell Ginsberg wrote: > Btw, I see your new book as the word 'soteriology' in > it. That is presumably not problematic for you > (despite Richard's comments about the word in Land of > No Buddha). Just for the record, I have been convinced by numerous critics that I was, as is my wont, being excessively narrow and literalistic in my verbal rampage against the use of the word "soteriology" in a Buddhist context. Indeed, the faster Land of No Buddha attains radical impermanence, the happier I will be. I am inclined to agree with the reviewer Vladimir K. about much of the criticisms expressed in his on- line review: (http://www.thezensite.com/ZenBookReviews/LandOfNoBuddha.htm) -- Richard From curt at cola.iges.org Tue Nov 1 11:40:31 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Tue Nov 1 17:09:12 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List In-Reply-To: <004301c5df17$f152bb60$7dee6480@chass> References: <1130767728.4576.4.camel@localhost.localdomain><43662853.7040409@cola.iges.org> <1130773637.5342.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <004301c5df17$f152bb60$7dee6480@chass> Message-ID: <4367B69F.2000703@cola.iges.org> Would Shinran accept the view that his teaching should be seen not in terms of absolute truth but rather in terms of "upaya"? In particular, would this "teaching" be seen as a specific "medicine" for a specific "disease" - for instance the disease of attachment to the idea of one's own goodness? I hope so - otherwise it appears to be a justification for .... just about anything. As in "my karma made me do it". - Curt Gad Horowitz wrote: >speaking of karma, here is a nice quotation from Shinran: >"Because you lack the karmic necessity to kill even a single person, you do >not commit murder. That is why you do not kill, not because YOU are GOOD. >On the other hand, even though you did not want to kill, it may so happen >that you nevertheless kill hundreds or thousands of people>" and he would >apply this to Rumsfeld, Rove, and me and thee, would he not? > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Richard P. Hayes" >To: "Buddhist discussion forum" >Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:47 AM >Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List > > > > >>On Mon, 2005-10-31 at 09:21 -0500, curt wrote: >> >> >> >>>I thought we were all busy writing thank you notes to Patrick Fitzgerald >>>and Joseph Wilson. >>> >>> >>No thank you notes are in order until Karl Rove is behind bars at >>Guant?namo and Don Rumsfeld is locked up with a room full of dogs in Abu >>Ghraib. As Robert Dylan almost said "It's karma-vipaaka that we need to >>get back to work again." >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>buddha-l mailing list >>buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >>http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > From horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca Tue Nov 1 23:17:11 2005 From: horowitz at chass.utoronto.ca (Gad Horowitz) Date: Tue Nov 1 20:14:04 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List References: <1130767728.4576.4.camel@localhost.localdomain><43662853.7040409@cola.iges.org> <1130773637.5342.5.camel@localhost.localdomain><004301c5df17$f152bb60$7dee6480@chass> <4367B69F.2000703@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <002501c5df75$11aac8a0$7dee6480@chass> I think "justification" as in "making it righty, or just" has nothing to do with it. What, other than my karma, could make me do anything? ----- Original Message ----- From: "curt" To: "Buddhist discussion forum" Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List > Would Shinran accept the view that his teaching should be seen not in > terms of absolute truth but rather in terms of "upaya"? In particular, > would this "teaching" be seen as a specific "medicine" for a specific > "disease" - for instance the disease of attachment to the idea of one's > own goodness? I hope so - otherwise it appears to be a justification for > .... just about anything. As in "my karma made me do it". > - Curt > > Gad Horowitz wrote: > > >speaking of karma, here is a nice quotation from Shinran: > >"Because you lack the karmic necessity to kill even a single person, you do > >not commit murder. That is why you do not kill, not because YOU are GOOD. > >On the other hand, even though you did not want to kill, it may so happen > >that you nevertheless kill hundreds or thousands of people>" and he would > >apply this to Rumsfeld, Rove, and me and thee, would he not? > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Richard P. Hayes" > >To: "Buddhist discussion forum" > >Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:47 AM > >Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List > > > > > > > > > >>On Mon, 2005-10-31 at 09:21 -0500, curt wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>I thought we were all busy writing thank you notes to Patrick Fitzgerald > >>>and Joseph Wilson. > >>> > >>> > >>No thank you notes are in order until Karl Rove is behind bars at > >>Guant?namo and Don Rumsfeld is locked up with a room full of dogs in Abu > >>Ghraib. As Robert Dylan almost said "It's karma-vipaaka that we need to > >>get back to work again." > >> > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>buddha-l mailing list > >>buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > >>http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > >> > >> > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >buddha-l mailing list > >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From castanford at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 20:42:18 2005 From: castanford at gmail.com (Chris) Date: Tue Nov 1 20:44:06 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] No longer... Silence of the List Message-ID: <290923980511011942r326bcf61m56aaad986e3dc438@mail.gmail.com> Two points. First, this list is no longer 'silent' and the subject line has exceeded its 'use-by-date'. Secondly, when replying to posts, it may be useful to edit out the unnecessary and irrelevant material from previous and earlier posts. At the very least, edit out all those [Buddha-l] notices that trail every post. I cut out four such repetitions from Gad's latest submission. On 11/2/05, Gad Horowitz wrote: > > I think "justification" as in "making it righty, or just" has nothing to > do > with it. What, other than my karma, could make me do anything? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "curt" > To: "Buddhist discussion forum" > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 10:40 AM > Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List > > > > Would Shinran accept the view that his teaching should be seen not in > > terms of absolute truth but rather in terms of "upaya"? In particular, > > would this "teaching" be seen as a specific "medicine" for a specific > > "disease" - for instance the disease of attachment to the idea of one's > > own goodness? I hope so - otherwise it appears to be a justification for > > .... just about anything. As in "my karma made me do it". > > - Curt > > > > Gad Horowitz wrote: > > > > >speaking of karma, here is a nice quotation from Shinran: > > >"Because you lack the karmic necessity to kill even a single person, > you > do > > >not commit murder. That is why you do not kill, not because YOU are > GOOD. > > >On the other hand, even though you did not want to kill, it may so > happen > > >that you nevertheless kill hundreds or thousands of people>" and he > would > > >apply this to Rumsfeld, Rove, and me and thee, would he not? > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Richard P. Hayes" > > >To: "Buddhist discussion forum" > > >Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:47 AM > > >Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>On Mon, 2005-10-31 at 09:21 -0500, curt wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>I thought we were all busy writing thank you notes to Patrick > Fitzgerald > > >>>and Joseph Wilson. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>No thank you notes are in order until Karl Rove is behind bars at > > >>Guant?namo and Don Rumsfeld is locked up with a room full of dogs in > Abu > > >>Ghraib. As Robert Dylan almost said "It's karma-vipaaka that we need > to > > >>get back to work again." > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051102/57f30302/attachment.html From s.mcara at auckland.ac.nz Tue Nov 1 22:40:32 2005 From: s.mcara at auckland.ac.nz (Sally McAra) Date: Tue Nov 1 22:44:06 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] RE: seeking the Pali and Sanskrit term for "holy/ religious/, sacred objects" Message-ID: <43685150.5060406@auckland.ac.nz> Erik wrote: /for what it's worth, in my experience Tibetans have always been obsessed by stones and buildings and land. So they're good in converting stones. If this is a general Buddhist thing is doubtfull, considering the amount of effort the Buddha himself put into building and statues. Even among Buddhist masters in India the percentage of (free) masons is remarkably low. The Buddha had dicovered that the easiest way to influence peoples minds is to talk to them. Maybe this is an art which has been neglected in Tibetan folklore.;) For this reason I think that findign a common name for holy things is extremely difficult, because there is no common concept. ----/ Sally's reply: Thanks Erik for your thoughts, here are my responses.... If there is no direct equivalent term or "common concept" to the Tibetan one, that'd be interesting too. But ancient India was full of "holy" objects (consecrated architecture, statues, paintings, stupas etc). And the concept of getting darshan from the statue of a god is there too as part of the ancient indic cultural setting. So I still think it is possible that there is a term that distinguishes religious objects like consecrated statues from everyday things like cooking pots and so on, even if they didn't conceptualise it in the ways the Tibetans did when they got hold of it later. The material culture was there. And is. Perhaps some more background to invite more discussion from the list... I am interested here in the fact that people built and still build elaborate and expensive monuments to their religion.... Despite the fact that I don't personally feel that keen on the practice, it is not my place to judge whether or not such things are helpful to people's minds. Perhaps the disinterest in this inquiry is because (a) I am female ... (joke, I hope! unless Joanna was right...) and/or (b) the participants in this list have what Gregory Schopen called "Protestant Presuppositions" and reject the idea of relics and other "sacred objects" having any benefit in spiritual practice and thus they simply don't merit discussion. Well, hmm, I don't notice any real benefits from stupas & relics myself but many people I have interviewed talk about how seeing Buddhist art including stupas inspired them to find out about buddhism, inspired feelings of peace, and I've even heard, during my inquiries, stories from people feeling their meditation practice was given a "boost" by having a reliquary touched on their head, etc... I find all this rather intriguing perhaps *because* I'm skeptical... But I'm not out to knock such practices but rather to try & see it from the participants' point of view! So, does anyone out there have any suggestions as per my earlier query about this? There must be at least one sanskritist on the list????? I'm really just after a few clues to help my inquiry... cheers, Sally (it's a nice spring evening here in New Zealand, nice to see some flowers appearing. I'm off to cycle home. BTW, Any other southern hemisphereans on the list?) From jamesward at earthlink.net Tue Nov 1 23:45:36 2005 From: jamesward at earthlink.net (James Ward) Date: Tue Nov 1 23:54:07 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Marcelle Lalou's Tibetan catalogue, Chinese catalogues Message-ID: <45F04277-4B6C-11DA-9792-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> Marcelle Lalou's three-volume catalogue of Tibetan manuscripts from Dunhuang held at the Biblioth?que Nationale de France is available online. Also available are the catalogues for the Chinese manuscripts from Dunhuang and the Chinese fragments preserved on the Tibetan manuscripts. http://www.bnf.fr/ Select "Rechercher" at the top of the page. Scroll down the resulting page to "Moteur de recherche interne" and type "tib?tain." On the next page, select number 2, "BnF-Catalogues num?ris?s : Manuscrits-Orient : Asie centrale et orientale." The following page provides access to the above catalogues and also shows which catalogues are in the process of digitization ("num?risation"). James Ward From selwyn at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 1 23:57:30 2005 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Wed Nov 2 00:04:07 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] RE: seeking the Pali and Sanskrit term for "holy/ religious/, sacred objects" In-Reply-To: <43685150.5060406@auckland.ac.nz> References: <43685150.5060406@auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: Sally writes: >But ancient India was full of "holy" objects (consecrated >architecture, statues, paintings, stupas etc). >And the concept of getting darshan from the statue of a god is there >too as part of the ancient indic cultural setting. So I still think >it is possible that there is a term that distinguishes religious >objects like consecrated statues from everyday things like cooking >pots and so on, even if they didn't conceptualise it in the ways the >Tibetans did when they got hold of it later. The material culture >was there. And is. Well, perhaps Pali cetiya = Skt caitya has some of what you want. A well-known Pali verse offers homage (vandemi) to every kind of cetiya and then specifies three kinds: 1. corporeal relics; 2. the Bodhi tree; 3. any Buddharuupa anywhere. >I am interested here in the fact that people built and still build >elaborate and expensive monuments to their religion.... Despite the >fact that I don't personally feel that keen on the practice, it is >not my place to judge whether or not such things are helpful to >people's minds. >Perhaps the disinterest in this inquiry is because (a) I am female >... (joke, I hope! unless Joanna was right...) and/or (b) the >participants in this list have what Gregory Schopen called >"Protestant Presuppositions" and reject the idea of relics and other >"sacred objects" having any benefit in spiritual practice and thus >they simply don't merit discussion. The latter :-) >Well, hmm, I don't notice any real benefits from stupas & relics >myself but many people I have interviewed talk about how seeing >Buddhist art including stupas inspired them to find out about >buddhism, inspired feelings of peace, and I've even heard, during my >inquiries, stories from people feeling their meditation practice was >given a "boost" by having a reliquary touched on their head, etc... >I find all this rather intriguing perhaps *because* I'm skeptical... >But I'm not out to knock such practices but rather to try & see it >from the participants' point of view! They do work from time to time. My impression is that meditation practice alternates between phases in which this kind of thing is very important and others in which it is either unimportant or even felt as an obstacle. So there is a problem if one gets stuck in views about it one way or another. Lance Cousins From joy.vriens at nerim.net Wed Nov 2 06:39:45 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Wed Nov 2 06:44:14 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List In-Reply-To: <002d01c5df08$dd1af130$ed574e51@zen> References: <1130767728.4576.4.camel@localhost.localdomain><43662853.7040409@cola.iges.org><1130773637.5342.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <004301c5df17$f152bb60$7dee6480@chass> <002d01c5df08$dd1af130$ed574e51@zen> Message-ID: <4368C1A1.8090801@nerim.net> Stephen Hodge wrote: > Gandhi: only the strong have a right to call themselves > true pacificists; the weak are pacificists only out of necessity. The strong have any right they want. They decide on who has what rights. But every child knows that. Is that what Gandhi wanted to point out? I find this quote quote is reminiscent of a scene from the Remains of the Days, where the butler (Stevens) was asked to answer a series of questions asked by a member of the conference (Mr Spencer) who wanted to prove his position against universal suffrage, judging that common people were incapable of democratically legislating on important international matters. "Stevens was not able to answer any of them ?I?m afraid I am unable to be of assistance on this matter?, was his standard reply. He simply politely apologised after every question." Later Lord Darlington explains: "It was really quite dreadful. But you see, Stevens, Mr. Spencer had to make a point to Sir Leonard. In fact, if it's any consolation, you did assist in demonstrating a very important point. Sir Leonard had been talking a lot of that old-fashioned nonsense. About the will of the people being the wisest arbitrator...We're really so slow in this country to regonize when a thing's outmoded. Other great nations know full well that to meet the challenges of each new age means discarding old, sometimes well-love methods. Not so here in Britain. There's still so many talking like Sir Leonard last night. ...We're always the last, Stevens. Always the last to be clinging on to outmoded systems. But sooner or later, we'll need to face up to the facts. Democracy is something for a bygone era." (198) From parisjm2004 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 2 07:08:58 2005 From: parisjm2004 at yahoo.com (Michael Paris) Date: Wed Nov 2 07:15:25 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] RE: seeking the Pali and Sanskrit term for "holy/ religious/, sacred objects" In-Reply-To: <43685150.5060406@auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: <20051102140858.30628.qmail@web32611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Replies below. Apologies for the length of the post. --- Sally McAra wrote: [snip] > Perhaps some more background to invite more discussion from the > list... > > > I am interested here in the fact that people built and still build > elaborate and expensive monuments to their religion.... Despite the > fact that I don't personally feel that keen on the practice, it is > not my place to judge whether or not such things are helpful to > people's minds. Apparently it is. I can testify to that to some degree from my own experience. I was raised Roman Catholic, and grew up in a church now designated a historical landmark in my city. St. Mary's of the Assumption is simply beautiful, in a classic sense - every window is stained-glass, with images of Apostles or saints. The three altars - the right to St. Joseph, the left to Mary - are imported Italian marble, ornately decorated and carved. The tabernacles are gold. There's a throne with overhaning crown for the visiting bishop. And the wood is about a century old. A treasure. That couldn't be more different from anything "worldly" - business, homes, offices. The atmosphere inside - quiet, with a hint of echo - is religious, spiritual at least. Other-worldly, so to speak. > > Perhaps the disinterest in this inquiry is because (a) I am female > ... (joke, I hope! unless Joanna was right...) and/or > (b) the participants in this list have what Gregory Schopen called > "Protestant Presuppositions" and reject the idea of relics and other > "sacred objects" having any benefit in spiritual practice and thus > they simply don't merit discussion. Gender is irelevant. I am simply not competent to discuss the academic matters raised on this list as I have no background. Your original message appeared directed to those qualified to answer, rather than addressed to any with some experience or thoughts in the subject. Relics do have importance to some groups. Fairly recently a saint's relic - in a reliquary of course - was in Dallas for a days. The Catholic faithful turned out by the thousands. Clearly, such holy items have appeal to a significant number of people, and have for millenia. Why is another question. IMHO that's a question for psychology, perhaps sociology as well. Religion is complex and not entirely rational. Perhaps philosophers, too, as the questions of "meaning" and "value" may be involved. I don't know. Nice thesis topic, though. > Well, hmm, I don't notice any real benefits from stupas & relics > myself but many people I have interviewed talk about how seeing > Buddhist art including stupas inspired them to find out about > buddhism, inspired feelings of peace, and I've even heard, during my > inquiries, stories from people feeling their meditation practice was > given a "boost" by having a reliquary touched on their head, etc... > I find all this rather intriguing perhaps *because* I'm skeptical... > But I'm not out to knock such practices but rather to try & see it > from the participants' point of view! Yes, precisely. We are not all the same. Some people have responses that others could not imagine. I've been deeply affected by an abstract painting, while my wife sees only a random pattern of paint splashes. Perhaps the response to religion is connected with the response to art. Certainly religious archetecture and music support that idea (e.g., JS Bach). In any event, I'm not sure you can see it from the participants' point of view. It may be entirely subjective, and can't be shared. I am not moved by relics, but the interiors of some churches - old-style Catholic or Episcopal/Anglican - leave me breathless. There *is* a distinct atmosphere there, whatever one may call it. On the other hand, many conservative Protestant (e.g., Southern Baptist, Church of Christ) and modern Catholic churches are just plain boring. They remind me of meeting halls. Lifeless, dull, and as inspiring as dried paint. [snip] Michael __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From joy.vriens at nerim.net Wed Nov 2 07:27:11 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Wed Nov 2 07:34:13 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Of Buddha, Miracles, and Ferry Rides In-Reply-To: <1130884304.31861.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20051101183116.52210.qmail@web60022.mail.yahoo.com> <1130884304.31861.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4368CCBF.3010600@nerim.net> Richard P. Hayes wrote: > Indeed, the faster Land of No Buddha attains radical > impermanence, the happier I will be. I am inclined to agree with the > reviewer Vladimir K. about much of the criticisms expressed in his on- > line review: > (http://www.thezensite.com/ZenBookReviews/LandOfNoBuddha.htm) Why? I don't know what the purpose of the book was, but I enjoyed reading it and found it "thought-provoking" as one says. I don't know why you wrote/published it, nor what Vladimir K. (Karamazow?) expected to find in it (other than reflections of a sceptical buddhist), but that is entirely your and Vladimir K.'s business. Besides I found Wladimir K.s review almost as funny as some of your essays and similar in style. The one-hundred twenty-five word sentence had me laugh out loud, just like the bit where he writes "I must confess that I had trouble finishing this book and many times thought of throwing it down in anger and despair". Admit it Richard, you wrote it yourself... From richard.nance at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 08:26:19 2005 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Wed Nov 2 08:35:25 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] RE: seeking the Pali and Sanskrit term for "holy/ religious/, sacred objects" In-Reply-To: References: <43685150.5060406@auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: > >Perhaps the disinterest in this inquiry is because (a) I am female > >... (joke, I hope! unless Joanna was right...) and/or (b) the > >participants in this list have what Gregory Schopen called > >"Protestant Presuppositions" and reject the idea of relics and other > >"sacred objects" having any benefit in spiritual practice and thus > >they simply don't merit discussion. I wouldn't be too quick to attribute motives. Personally, I've refrained from weighing in on this simply because I can't recall a general category of "sacred material object" being explicitly thematized or discussed in the Buddhist Sanskrit texts I've read. This doesn't mean that the texts don't occasionally discuss objects (including the texts themselves) as worthy of veneration -- they do. But this veneration is due to them not because they belong to a more general class of "sacred material objects," but because, e.g., they constitute the body of the Tathaagata. I'd be wary of assuming that this description generalizes to the category of "sacred material objects." One resource that might prove of some use to you in the current context is the Mahaavyutpatti (a 9th century Sanskrit-Tibetan translation lexicon). This is available in an English translation by Csoma de K?r?s (_Sanskrit-Tibetan-English vocabulary : being an edition and translation of the Mahaavyutpatti_); there are also e-versions available from various sites. In the text, terms and phrases are not listed alphabetically; instead, they're grouped under various categories. This fact makes the work somewhat cumbersome to use, but it provides an interesting window into the way in which some Buddhist scholars of the period thought that the terms and phrases they were regularly encountering in Buddhist texts could be categorized. A quick glance at the work turns up the following: the term mchod rten (which you previously mentioned, and which is offered in the text as an equivalent for the Skt. caitya) is not itself used to label a category. It does occur in the text, where is incorporated under a category of miscellany (skad go 'dun gyi ming la), along with apparently completely unrelated terms (e.g., sgrib pa, skt. aavara.na = "taint"). There is a category devoted to "mchod pa'i yo byad kyi ming la," a phrase that translates to something to something like "names pertaining to the practice of worship" (Tib. mchod pa is here being used to translate the Skt. puuja). This might seem promising -- but it turns out that this category is devoted for the most part to words for things like powders, flags, perfumes, garlands, and so on: i.e., terms for that which is offered rather that terms for that to which offering is made. Although the category does include short descriptive phrases applicable to the latter (e.g. Tib. mchos par byed pa is offered as an equivalent for the Skt. mahita, "esteemed"), nothing in these phrases signals the materiality of the recipient, and there appears to be no comparable category subsuming all and only estimable material objects. Best wishes, R. Nance From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Nov 2 08:36:47 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Nov 2 11:01:42 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] RE: seeking the Pali and Sanskrit term for "holy/ religious/, sacred objects" In-Reply-To: <43685150.5060406@auckland.ac.nz> References: <43685150.5060406@auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4368DD0F.70808@cola.iges.org> Perhaps you are looking for an adjective rather than a noun. As in "holy" or "sacred" or "religious". In fact the original request was for "terms for holy/sacred/religious objects". Especially given that original phrasing there's no particular reason to assume that there must be a specific noun for "holy objects" - so long as there is an equivalent adjective for "holy". Not being a Sanskritist I won't venture a Sanskrit equivalent - but it is possible to speak quite broadly of a Buddhist "attitude" toward conceptions of "the sacred". In particular Buddhism has generally accepted "pre-existing" conceptions of the sacred - going back to the Buddha himself. According to tradition the Buddha called upon the Earth Goddess to be his "witness" at the moment of his enlightenment - and she agreed (and proclaimed her agreement with a voice as loud as 100,000 human voices). King Asoka liked to refer to himself as "Beloved of the Gods" in his edicts. Chinese, Japanese and Korean Buddhists have usually continued to honor and revere and even "worship" Deities that long predate the entry of Buddhism into their respective countries - and this honor reverence and worship necessarily entails respecting the "things" (whether ritual objects or sacred places or whatever) that are sacred to those Deities. Also many East Asian Buddhist Masters have propounded the idea of harmonizing Buddhism with Confucianism and Taoism - explicitly acknowledging that those other "Religions" are valid - and that what they hold sacred is also held sacred by Buddhists. This contrasts with certain other Religions, which shall remain nameless, that have a bad habit of rejecting the "sacred objects" of other Religions - often go much further than simply denying their "sacredness" - by considering such objects evil and accursed (and probably in need of burning). On the other hand Buddhism generally accepts the "sacredness" of things that are sacred to non-Buddhists. - Curt Sally McAra wrote: > Erik wrote: > > /for what it's worth, in my experience Tibetans have always been > obsessed by stones and buildings and land. So they're good in > converting stones. If this is a general Buddhist thing is doubtfull, > considering the amount of effort the Buddha himself put into building > and statues. Even among Buddhist masters in India the percentage of > (free) masons is remarkably low. The Buddha had dicovered that the > easiest way to influence peoples minds is to talk to them. Maybe this > is an art which has been neglected in Tibetan folklore.;) > For this reason I think that findign a common name for holy things is > extremely difficult, because there is no common concept. > ----/ > Sally's reply: Thanks Erik for your thoughts, here are my responses.... > > > If there is no direct equivalent term or "common concept" to the > Tibetan one, that'd be interesting too. > > But ancient India was full of "holy" objects (consecrated > architecture, statues, paintings, stupas etc). > And the concept of getting darshan from the statue of a god is there > too as part of the ancient indic cultural setting. So I still think > it is possible that there is a term that distinguishes religious > objects like consecrated statues from everyday things like cooking > pots and so on, even if they didn't conceptualise it in the ways the > Tibetans did when they got hold of it later. The material culture was > there. And is. > > Perhaps some more background to invite more discussion from the list... > > I am interested here in the fact that people built and still build > elaborate and expensive monuments to their religion.... Despite the > fact that I don't personally feel that keen on the practice, it is not > my place to judge whether or not such things are helpful to people's > minds. > Perhaps the disinterest in this inquiry is because (a) I am female ... > (joke, I hope! unless Joanna was right...) and/or (b) the participants > in this list have what Gregory Schopen called "Protestant > Presuppositions" and reject the idea of relics and other "sacred > objects" having any benefit in spiritual practice and thus they simply > don't merit discussion. > Well, hmm, I don't notice any real benefits from stupas & relics > myself but many people I have interviewed talk about how seeing > Buddhist art including stupas inspired them to find out about > buddhism, inspired feelings of peace, and I've even heard, during my > inquiries, stories from people feeling their meditation practice was > given a "boost" by having a reliquary touched on their head, etc... I > find all this rather intriguing perhaps *because* I'm skeptical... But > I'm not out to knock such practices but rather to try & see it from > the participants' point of view! > So, does anyone out there have any suggestions as per my earlier query > about this? There must be at least one sanskritist on the list????? > I'm really just after a few clues to help my inquiry... > > cheers, > Sally > (it's a nice spring evening here in New Zealand, nice to see some > flowers appearing. I'm off to cycle home. BTW, Any other southern > hemisphereans on the list?) > > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Wed Nov 2 11:01:21 2005 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed Nov 2 11:14:17 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List References: <1130767728.4576.4.camel@localhost.localdomain><43662853.7040409@cola.iges.org><1130773637.5342.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <004301c5df17$f152bb60$7dee6480@chass><002d01c5df08$dd1af130$ed574e51@zen> <4368C1A1.8090801@nerim.net> Message-ID: <003a01c5dfd8$4b25ddf0$23474e51@zen> Joy Vriens wrote: >> Gandhi: only the strong have a right to call themselves true pacificists; >> the weak are pacificists only out of necessity. > > The strong have any right they want. They decide on who has what rights. > But every child knows that. Is that what Gandhi wanted to point out? First, note that I was paraphrasing from memory. Perhaps I should have said that "it is only appropriate for the strong ... " or something like that. What I thnk Gandhi was saying is that a conscious and deliberate choice to adopt pacificism is more laudable in the case of the strong because they have other options, whereas the weak (unless they are stupid) do not have the luxury of making such choices -- they are generally pacificists out of necessity. Does that make things clearer for you ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Wed Nov 2 11:07:01 2005 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed Nov 2 11:14:19 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] RE: seeking the Pali and Sanskrit term for "holy/religious/, sacred objects" References: <43685150.5060406@auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: <003b01c5dfd8$4c1bfdc0$23474e51@zen> Richard Nance wrote: > This fact makes the work somewhat cumbersome to > use, but it provides an interesting window into the way in which some > Buddhist scholars of the period thought that the terms and phrases > they were regularly encountering in Buddhist texts could be > categorized. But, of course, this is how many early Indian lexicons are arranged, cf the famous Amarakosha. Other ways included arrangements based on syllable count. >There is a category devoted to "mchod pa'i yo byad kyi > ming la," a phrase that translates to something to something like > "names pertaining to the practice of worship" The reason why this category is devoted to the material things that are offered is simply because that is exactly what the Tibetan actually says -- "Names for the equipment / things for offering". Korosi was an early 19th century pioneer in Tibetan studies so his English equivalents need to be used with caution in many cases. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From richard.nance at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 11:20:27 2005 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Wed Nov 2 11:24:16 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] RE: seeking the Pali and Sanskrit term for "holy/ religious/, sacred objects" In-Reply-To: References: <43685150.5060406@auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: Earlier today, I wrote: > Although the category does include short > descriptive phrases applicable to the latter (e.g. Tib. mchos par byed > pa is offered as an equivalent for the Skt. mahita, "esteemed") The Tibetan above is misquoted; I really should proofread my posts more carefully before sending them off. Please revise to "mchod par byas." Sorry about that, R. Nance From Bshmr at aol.com Wed Nov 2 11:20:45 2005 From: Bshmr at aol.com (Bshmr@aol.com) Date: Wed Nov 2 11:24:32 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Deceit to Perjury Message-ID: Most Senior Richard, and his Guests, [ I surfed to BeliefNet today to scan a discussion of 'motivation in practice', then was distracted by one of their Features (see link and excerpts below). Puzzling out what comes next, or what came before (Clinton), I concluded that 'five precepts' is more 'me' than 'ten commands'. Also, apparently, for some Abrahamics, deceit is condoned when effectively manipulating others. ... ] Richard Basham ** _http://www.beliefnet.com/story/178/story_17804_1.html_ (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/178/story_17804_1.html) Perjury: A Crime Against God? What's so wrong with swearing falsely under oath? According to religious sources, quite a lot. By David Klinghoffer >From a moral perspective, what exactly is so very wrong with swearing falsely under oath? That is one of the questions raised by the indictment of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Vice President Cheney?s chief of staff, on two counts of perjury?a crime that, if he?s convicted of it or pleads guilty, could contribute to his spending 30 years in prison. ... Another reason perjury can?t be forgiven, or at least not easily, is that it constitutes a denial of God and His power to take vengeance on the perjurer. The false-oath taker has, in effect, publicly affirmed that he can lie in God? s name, implicitly calling divine wrath on himself, and get away with it. Now that?s a dis! Lying has none of these terrible associations. On the contrary, the Bible itself gives evidence that God employs the occasional distortion of the truth for a good cause. ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051102/deaca3cf/attachment.html From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Nov 2 11:30:19 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed Nov 2 11:34:20 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Of Buddha, Miracles, and Ferry Rides In-Reply-To: <4368CCBF.3010600@nerim.net> References: <20051101183116.52210.qmail@web60022.mail.yahoo.com> <1130884304.31861.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4368CCBF.3010600@nerim.net> Message-ID: <1130956219.4622.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-11-02 at 15:27 +0100, Joy Vriens wrote: > I don't know what the purpose of the book was, but I enjoyed > reading it and found it "thought-provoking" as one says. My only purpose was to think about things by writing about them. Then I had all this writing on my hands. The purpose of publishing it was to raise money for a meditation center, to which I have signed over all the royalties. > I don't know why you wrote/published it, nor what Vladimir K. > (Karamazow?) expected to find in it (other than reflections of a > sceptical buddhist), but that > is entirely your and Vladimir K.'s business. What I found compelling about his review was the comparison of Michael Moore to Noam Chomsky. One expects Michael Moore to make all kinds of wild accusations and to shoot from the hip, and perhaps even enjoys it, but one expects more carefully argued and well-documented claims from a professor at MIT. Similarly, Vladimir apparently expects wild accusations and shooting from the hip from some Buddhists, but not from a professor of Buddhist studies. Vladimir pay have been shooting from the hip when he wrote that, but I think he hit the target. So perhaps the mistake I made was not to write the essays and publish them as a book, but to do all that under my real name. If I had published the book under the name Wild Dick Haze, then no one would have expected it to have the gravitas they expect from a professor. > Besides I found Wladimir K.s review almost as funny as some of your > essays and similar in style. The one-hundred twenty-five word sentence > had me laugh out loud, Some years ago my father gave me a computer program that was supposed to help one become more aware of writing style. One of the things this program did was to count the number of words in a sample of writing and divide by the number of sentences. My average sentence was something like 100 words, and many of my sentences were 200-300 words long. This computer program then gave a reading assignment a difficulty score. The idea writing style, it said, was aimed at a reader with a grade nine education. It then computed my writing style to be something that a student with a grade 27 education would feel comfortable reading. I took the hint and started writing shorter sentences, such as the 125-word masterpiece that Vladimir cited. (It was, you'll have to admit, a damn well-written sentence.) > just like the bit where he writes "I must confess that I had trouble > finishing this book and many times thought of throwing it down in anger > and despair". Moi aussi! Vlad's reaction is just about exactly the reaction I appreciate in a reader. If people don't come away feeling a little angry and personally insulted by an essay, I figure the essayist only made a half-hearted effort. > Admit it Richard, you wrote it yourself... I have no problem admitting that I wrote it. I just wonder how wise it was to publish it under my own name. In the future I think I'll publish such essays under an assumed name. I've been toying with using either James Peavler, Joy Vriens or Joanna Kirkpatrick. -- My Unitarian Jihad Name (http://tinyurl.com/6valr ) is: The Logging Chain of Loving Kindness You can get your own at http://homepage.mac.com/whump/ujname.html From richard.nance at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 12:13:51 2005 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Wed Nov 2 12:14:18 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] RE: seeking the Pali and Sanskrit term for "holy/religious/, sacred objects" In-Reply-To: <003b01c5dfd8$4c1bfdc0$23474e51@zen> References: <43685150.5060406@auckland.ac.nz> <003b01c5dfd8$4c1bfdc0$23474e51@zen> Message-ID: Stephen wrote: >The reason why this category is devoted to the material things that are >offered is simply because that is exactly what the Tibetan actually says -- >"Names for the equipment / things for offering". True. But while we're at it, we might as well refine the translation still further: "equipment / things" is a fine translation of the Tibetan "yo byad", but the underlying Sanskrit is still more specific: it's pari.skaaraa.h, which might be rendered more precisely as "ornaments" or "adornments." What we're faced with, then, is a Sanskrit compound -- offering-ornaments (puujapari.skaaraa.h) -- which could be analyzed in various ways, the most plausible being a .sa.s.thii tatpuru.sa: "ornaments of (or for) offering." This is certainly clearer than the translation that I offered in my original post; it's also arguably clearer than the one you've just offered. Now that the pedantry has been duly flexed, it's worth noting that neither of these refinements really helps Sally to answer a salient question: whether "ornaments of (or for) offering" are among the objects that she would wish to classify as "sacred" or "holy". This is a question that I think she'll have to answer for herself; on this point, the Mahaavyutpatti doesn't provide much in the way of guidance. Best wishes, R. Nance From joy.vriens at nerim.net Wed Nov 2 12:34:46 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Wed Nov 2 12:44:20 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List In-Reply-To: <003a01c5dfd8$4b25ddf0$23474e51@zen> References: <1130767728.4576.4.camel@localhost.localdomain><43662853.7040409@cola.iges.org><1130773637.5342.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <004301c5df17$f152bb60$7dee6480@chass><002d01c5df08$dd1af130$ed574e51@zen> <4368C1A1.8090801@nerim.net> <003a01c5dfd8$4b25ddf0$23474e51@zen> Message-ID: <436914D6.8090206@nerim.net> Stephen wrote: > First, note that I was paraphrasing from memory. Perhaps I should have > said that "it is only appropriate for the strong ... " or something like > that. I don't know, what did Gandhi say? :-) > What I thnk Gandhi was saying is that a conscious and deliberate > choice to adopt pacificism is more laudable in the case of the strong > because they have other options, whereas the weak (unless they are > stupid) do not have the luxury of making such choices -- they are > generally pacificists out of necessity. Does that make things clearer > for you ? To be honest, I already expected as much, but even then I find such statement problematic. Why do I have to be a woman to talk about feminism, black to talk about racism, gay to talk about homosexuality, a politician in power to talk about pacifism with more weight? I watched a debate yesterday about the colonial past of France (the book I mentioned recently starts to have some effect) and it was mentioned that the way colonising countries treated the colonised is (I don't write shouldn't, I write is) not as much a problem of those who were humilated and still have a hangup about it as some seem to see it, but especially of those who still silently are colonists in their heads and haven't really moved on. It very much undermined and weakened the French republican ideal of human rights and therefore its own very fundations. It was mentioned that before 1958 75% of the history books were about the glorious history of the colonies and after 1960 there wasn't a single mention anymore of colonies in the French history books. What I mean to say, that we are all in it together, every problem in society is a shared one and every decision ought to be a shared one. And especialy when we are talking about democracies, like the India Gandhi dreamt of, who are the strong ones whose mention of pacifism is more laudable and who are the weak ones that ought to dim it? From richard.nance at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 12:59:31 2005 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Wed Nov 2 13:04:20 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] RE: seeking the Pali and Sanskrit term for "holy/religious/, sacred objects" In-Reply-To: References: <43685150.5060406@auckland.ac.nz> <003b01c5dfd8$4c1bfdc0$23474e51@zen> Message-ID: On 11/2/05, Richard Nance wrote: > What we're faced with, then, is a Sanskrit compound -- > offering-ornaments (puujapari.skaaraa.h) That would be: puujaapari.skaaraa.h. Enough out of me for one day; I can't seem to stop making mistakes. Best wishes, R. From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Wed Nov 2 13:11:44 2005 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed Nov 2 13:14:17 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] RE: seeking the Pali and Sanskrit term for"holy/religious/, sacred objects" References: <43685150.5060406@auckland.ac.nz><003b01c5dfd8$4c1bfdc0$23474e51@zen> Message-ID: <003401c5dfe9$b7fe5680$0e504e51@zen> Dear Richard (N) > but the underlying Sanskrit is still more specific: > it's pari.skaaraa.h, which might be rendered more precisely as > "ornaments" or "adornments." And we can proceed to the ultra-pedantic and refer to Edgerton (BHS Dic p331) who by including pari.skaara (which he too defines as "equipment, utensils, personal belongings") implies that these are specifically Buddhist meanings not present in the standard Sanskrit usage. Your move :) Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Wed Nov 2 13:22:28 2005 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed Nov 2 13:24:21 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List References: <1130767728.4576.4.camel@localhost.localdomain><43662853.7040409@cola.iges.org><1130773637.5342.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <004301c5df17$f152bb60$7dee6480@chass><002d01c5df08$dd1af130$ed574e51@zen> <4368C1A1.8090801@nerim.net><003a01c5dfd8$4b25ddf0$23474e51@zen> <436914D6.8090206@nerim.net> Message-ID: <004501c5dfeb$37505f90$0e504e51@zen> Dear Joy, > To be honest, I already expected as much, but even then I find such > statement problematic. Why do I have to be a woman to talk about feminism, > black to talk about racism, gay to talk about homosexuality, a politician > in power to talk about pacifism with more weight? Please take this up with Gandhi, whose words I paraphrased as far as my memory allows. I have not indicated at any point whether I endorse his views on the matter. Your subsequent comments are not without interest, but I currently have neither the time or energy to debate these matters with you. Perhaps somebody else will oblige. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge PS: Why do you assume Gandhi was talking about politicians in power ? Where were they mentioned in my post ?? The strong and weak exist on many levels and can be deemed thus by a variety of criteria. From joy.vriens at nerim.net Wed Nov 2 14:01:18 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Wed Nov 2 14:04:19 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Of Buddha, Miracles, and Ferry Rides In-Reply-To: <1130956219.4622.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20051101183116.52210.qmail@web60022.mail.yahoo.com> <1130884304.31861.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4368CCBF.3010600@nerim.net> <1130956219.4622.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4369291E.7010203@nerim.net> Richard P. Hayes wrote: > My only purpose was to think about things by writing about them. Then I > had all this writing on my hands. That is what came across, and I don't understand that Vladimir failed to see that. It was a series of essays and it's entirely legitmate to write essays about *Western* Buddhism. Essays like novels are a typically Western form of expression of freedom (see Kundera's l'art du roman). Within the safe boundaries of an essay or novel one is free to imagine and think. And any personal experience mixed in with makes it only more alive and pertinent ... and Western if it's written by a Westerner. > What I found compelling about his review was the comparison of Michael > Moore to Noam Chomsky. One expects Michael Moore to make all kinds of > wild accusations and to shoot from the hip, and perhaps even enjoys it, > but one expects more carefully argued and well-documented claims from a > professor at MIT. Similarly, Vladimir apparently expects wild > accusations and shooting from the hip from some Buddhists, but not from > a professor of Buddhist studies. It's a good thing the era of overspecialisation comes to an end and we're going back to a more interdisciplinary approach (or is the pendulum swinging back yet again?). It's a good thing imo that a professor of Buddhist studies and a Buddhist practitioner, or even a non-buddhist non-practitioner for that matter do meet. What is wrong with a melange de genres? > Vladimir pay have been shooting from > the hip when he wrote that, but I think he hit the target. So perhaps > the mistake I made was not to write the essays and publish them as a > book, but to do all that under my real name. If I had published the book > under the name Wild Dick Haze, then no one would have expected it to > have the gravitas they expect from a professor. Complying with the expectations of others must be a very hard thing to do. I wouldn't be liked to be forced to do so. The charm of your book and of a list like this one is that people don't always (perhaps a euphemism) have the gravitas one expects from professors. I don't mean to rub it in, but you not only failed Vlad's expectations as a professor, but also as a practitioner: "A sentence of such anger and bile makes one wonder what it is that Hayes has learned about being a Buddhist." and even simpy as a mature person (middle-aged man): "And for a middle-aged man who at this point in his life had studied Indian philosophy for ten years, earned a PhD from the Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies at the University of Toronto and was teaching Sanskrit language and Indian Buddhist philosophy, this is one angry, strident writer who seems to have missed some important points about Buddhist practice, such as compassion and understanding for one?s fellow humans and their frailties." (smoke must have been coming out from his ears at this point) I don't know how one can conclude from a series of essays that someone lacks "compassion and understanding for one?s fellow humans and their frailties". And I am astonished, though not excessively, that a well schooled Westerner, and a practising Buddhist at that, can feel angry and desperate when reading an essay. > This > computer program then gave a reading assignment a difficulty score. The > idea writing style, it said, was aimed at a reader with a grade nine > education. It then computed my writing style to be something that a > student with a grade 27 education would feel comfortable reading. I took > the hint and started writing shorter sentences, such as the 125-word > masterpiece that Vladimir cited. (It was, you'll have to admit, a damn > well-written sentence.) A style is a style. If everybody had the same style it would simply be etiquette. >> just like the bit where he writes "I must confess that I had trouble >>finishing this book and many times thought of throwing it down in anger >>and despair". > Moi aussi! Vlad's reaction is just about exactly the reaction I > appreciate in a reader. If people don't come away feeling a little angry > and personally insulted by an essay, I figure the essayist only made a > half-hearted effort. Exactly, what a compliment! "throwing it down", I am jealous. Damn you did it again... >>Admit it Richard, you wrote it yourself... > I have no problem admitting that I wrote it. I just wonder how wise it > was to publish it under my own name. In the future I think I'll publish > such essays under an assumed name. I've been toying with using either > James Peavler, Joy Vriens or Joanna Kirkpatrick. I don't whether it is wise, but it shows you are a mensch out of one piece taking responsibility for all his manifestations. But being a mensch doesn't necessarily guarantee one of having good reviews. Joy From joy.vriens at nerim.net Wed Nov 2 14:08:26 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Wed Nov 2 14:14:18 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Silence of the List In-Reply-To: <004501c5dfeb$37505f90$0e504e51@zen> References: <1130767728.4576.4.camel@localhost.localdomain><43662853.7040409@cola.iges.org><1130773637.5342.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <004301c5df17$f152bb60$7dee6480@chass><002d01c5df08$dd1af130$ed574e51@zen> <4368C1A1.8090801@nerim.net><003a01c5dfd8$4b25ddf0$23474e51@zen> <436914D6.8090206@nerim.net> <004501c5dfeb$37505f90$0e504e51@zen> Message-ID: <43692ACA.2060300@nerim.net> Dear Stephen, > PS: Why do you assume Gandhi was talking about politicians in power ? > Where were they mentioned in my post ?? The strong and weak exist on > many levels and can be deemed thus by a variety of criteria. It was because of the recent discussion about pacifism. Perhaps Gandhi talked about non-violence (ahimsa) rather than about pacifism? Joy From marshallarts at bigpond.com Wed Nov 2 14:52:34 2005 From: marshallarts at bigpond.com (Kate) Date: Wed Nov 2 15:04:21 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] RE: seeking the Pali and Sanskrit term for "holy/ religious/, sacred objects" References: <43685150.5060406@auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: <003f01c5dff7$bbbbf260$6900a8c0@vic.bigpond.net.au> >."..... Well, hmm, I don't notice any real benefits from stupas & relics myself ......."< Hi Sally, I don't know how other Buddhist sects view stupas but to Chen Yen (and possibly all mikkyo schools), the stupa has great significance. Each shape that comprises the stupa is a mandala which symbolizes certain universal Buddhist values and teachings, or human qualities. Each mandala of the stupa interconnects with the others to form a mandala of totality which is represented by the stupa as a whole. Viewed from the side, the stupa is a 3-D mandala. If you could view it from directly above, it would appear as a 2-D mandala. In the same way that a "seed syllable" taken from a full incantation can contain the essence of the whole ritual, the stupa can be viewed as a visual "seed" which brings to mind the whole teaching that is embodied within the stupa. >...."BTW, Any other southern hemisphereans on the list?...".< Yes, I'm right next door to you in Australia. Regards Kate From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Nov 2 15:27:56 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed Nov 2 15:34:22 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Of Buddha, Miracles, and Ferry Rides In-Reply-To: <4369291E.7010203@nerim.net> References: <20051101183116.52210.qmail@web60022.mail.yahoo.com> <1130884304.31861.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4368CCBF.3010600@nerim.net> <1130956219.4622.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4369291E.7010203@nerim.net> Message-ID: <1130970477.6318.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-11-02 at 22:01 +0100, Joy Vriens wrote: > I don't mean to rub it in, but you not only failed Vlad's expectations > as a professor, but also as a practitioner: > > "A sentence of such anger and bile makes one wonder what it is that > Hayes has learned about being a Buddhist." That sentence did surprise me quite a bit. Anger is something I feel now and then, but it is not a big part of my life (except when Republicans are in office). As for the humors, I am much more phlegmatic than bilious in nature. That is true both in classical Greek humor theory and in Ayurvedic theory. > "And for a middle-aged man who at this point in his life had studied > Indian philosophy for ten years, earned a PhD from the Department of > Sanskrit and Indian Studies at the University of Toronto and was > teaching Sanskrit language and Indian Buddhist philosophy, this is one > angry, strident writer who seems to have missed some important points > about Buddhist practice, such as compassion and understanding for one?s > fellow humans and their frailties." This also surprised me quite a bit. I think he missed the mark, but people who do not know me often do. > I don't know how one can conclude from a series of essays that someone > lacks "compassion and understanding for one?s fellow humans and their > frailties". And I am astonished, though not excessively, that a well > schooled Westerner, and a practising Buddhist at that, can feel angry > and desperate when reading an essay. Perhaps he did not feel angry at all. After all, if he missed the mark in attributing anger and lack of compassion to me, you may be missing the mark in attributing the same things to him. -- Richard From richard.nance at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 15:48:27 2005 From: richard.nance at gmail.com (Richard Nance) Date: Wed Nov 2 15:54:19 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] RE: seeking the Pali and Sanskrit term for"holy/religious/, sacred objects" In-Reply-To: <003401c5dfe9$b7fe5680$0e504e51@zen> References: <43685150.5060406@auckland.ac.nz> <003b01c5dfd8$4c1bfdc0$23474e51@zen> <003401c5dfe9$b7fe5680$0e504e51@zen> Message-ID: On 11/2/05, Stephen Hodge wrote: > And we can proceed to the ultra-pedantic and refer to Edgerton (BHS Dic > p331) who by including pari.skaara (which he too defines as "equipment, > utensils, personal belongings") implies that these are specifically Buddhist > meanings not present in the standard Sanskrit usage. Your move :) I'm going to forfeit (I don't enjoy games of this sort at all). Before I do, however, I'll offer this as a last remark: as you know very well, Edgerton is saying that the term pari.skaara, when found in Buddhist texts, may mean what he suggests it to mean. But the fact that a term or phrase appears in a Buddhist text doesn't entail that the term or phrase has a "Buddhist meaning" in that context. The term or phrase may very well mean what it means in standard Sanskrit usage. Personally, I see no problem with thinking of powders, perfumes, and the like as "ornaments" or "adornments." If you prefer "equipment / things," fine; your suggested translation is perfectly defensible. I'd like to think that my own revised version is likewise perfectly defensible. But if you need to claim victory in this contest of pedantry, I'll be happy to cede it: you win. You're more pedantic than I am, Stephen. Lucky man. Now, hopefully, we can both turn our attention away from this kaakadantapariik.saa and onto something more useful. Best wishes, R. Nance From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Nov 2 16:52:51 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed Nov 2 16:54:21 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] RE: seeking the Pali and Sanskrit term for"holy/religious/, sacred objects" In-Reply-To: References: <43685150.5060406@auckland.ac.nz> <003b01c5dfd8$4c1bfdc0$23474e51@zen> <003401c5dfe9$b7fe5680$0e504e51@zen> Message-ID: <1130975571.6318.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-11-02 at 17:48 -0500, Richard Nance wrote: > Now, hopefully, we can both turn our attention away from this > kaakadantapariik.saa and onto something more useful. Hey, kaakadantapariik.saa is a perfectly good thing to do if one happens to be an ornithological dentists. I was planning to go into that field, but I was afraid I would end up with too many bills. -- Richard From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Wed Nov 2 18:16:52 2005 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed Nov 2 18:24:22 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] RE: seeking the Pali and Sanskrit termfor"holy/religious/, sacred objects" References: <43685150.5060406@auckland.ac.nz><003b01c5dfd8$4c1bfdc0$23474e51@zen><003401c5dfe9$b7fe5680$0e504e51@zen> Message-ID: <002401c5e014$58e1adc0$19664e51@zen> Dear Richard, > I'm going to forfeit (I don't enjoy games of this sort at all). [snip] But > if you need to claim > victory in this contest of pedantry, I'll be happy to cede it: you win. > You're more pedantic than > I am. Perhaps you've had a hard day today, but you seem to be over-reacting -- I am sorry for this since it is untypical of you.. I don't see this as a contest and I do not see it as a matter of pedantics -- you were the one who introduced the word. To re-cap, without labouring the point unnecessarily, you seemed to express some disappointment that the "puuja-pari.skaaraa.h" section of the MVtti only dealt with the materiel of puujas. I then pointed out that the Tibetan was mistranslated with regards to "yo-byad" -- with a valid warming about Korosi. You then introduced your theory that "pari.skaaraa.h" does or could connote the standard Sanskrit sense of "ornaments" or "adornments", which I countered with Edgerton who gives the same equivalent as I do for pari.skaara (yo-byad), which leads me to believe (given Edgerton's lexical crtieria) that that meaning which, to my mind, fits the MVtti entry better is a special Buddhist usage. With all due respect to you (and not in a competitive, point-scoring spirit), I think you are wrong. No shame in that -- I get things wrong too sometimes. That the Edgerton / Hodge rendering is closwer to the intended connotation is suggested by the Tibetan word yo-byad itself, but also from the numerous independent occasions in Chinese, known for more flexible textual translations, where pari.skaara even used on its *own* is translated as "things for offering / things to make offerings with". I have not been able to find any non-Buddhist occurence or citation of puuja-pari.skaara, but note that puuja-sa.mbhaara and puujopakara.na are quite common -- I would thus suggest that all three terms are virtually synonymous. To translate as you suggest with "ornaments", just seems to introduce unnecessary obfuscation -- I tend to think that the Chinese and Tibetan translators knew what they were doing. Sorry if you find all this unintendedly pedantic, but you know that lexicography is one of my interests. If Sally is trying to be precise in her understanding of possible Buddhist terms that meet her criteria, then an accurate rendering of each term would seem to be useful. So cheer up and don't take it all so personally ! Best wises, Stephen Hodge From joy.vriens at nerim.net Thu Nov 3 02:55:29 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Thu Nov 3 03:04:29 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Of Buddha, Miracles, and Ferry Rides In-Reply-To: <1130970477.6318.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20051101183116.52210.qmail@web60022.mail.yahoo.com> <1130884304.31861.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4368CCBF.3010600@nerim.net> <1130956219.4622.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4369291E.7010203@nerim.net> <1130970477.6318.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4369DE91.3050605@nerim.net> Richard wrote: >>I don't know how one can conclude from a series of essays that someone >>lacks "compassion and understanding for one?s fellow humans and their >>frailties". And I am astonished, though not excessively, that a well >>schooled Westerner, and a practising Buddhist at that, can feel angry >>and desperate when reading an essay. > Perhaps he did not feel angry at all. After all, if he missed the mark > in attributing anger and lack of compassion to me, you may be missing > the mark in attributing the same things to him. I admit I am totally lost. Your only purpose was to think about things by writing about them and you did so and the subtitle of the book is "reflections of a sceptical Buddhist". Vladimir expected a different sort of book ("a critique of Buddhism's engagement with the West") "from a professor of Buddhist studies at a respected tertiary institution". He writes: "One of the reasons I question why these essays were published in book form is that Hayes himself confirms that his viewpoints have generally changed and he goes on to state that ?even when my views have remained more or less as they were, I would now strive to find different ways of expressing them.? (p.2) If this is so, then what is the purpose of publishing these essays? Either Hayes believes they are valuable enough to the reader to purchase and spend time reading them or they should be immortalized in book form for the wisdom they contain." Richard writes himself in the preface: "...that the collection of essays chronicle a stage in my own development as a Buddhist, and that many other Western Buddhists have gone through, or are now going through, a similar stage of development." and elsewhere: "The entire collection of twelve essays, then, can be seen as part of a work in progress, namely, the work of one Western Buddhist trying to come to terms with both being Western and being Buddhist." Reviewing the book as a "critique of Buddhism's engagement with the West from a professor of Buddhist studies at a respected tertiary institution" is perhaps to miss the mark. I myself am a bad Buddhist in that I believe in stages of development only. One stage is not necessarily higher or better than another. I don't believe I am working my way up to an ultimate truth on whatever matter. Therefore I don't see a problem in publishing viewpoints that may have changed since they were first thought or written. I have the impression that too many books on Buddhism in the West are still written with the objective to try and convey whatever is "Buddhism" to a Western audience. The risk with books like that is that both those writing and reading them think in terms of a well defined and delimited Buddhism. Many of hese books, including those written by professors of Buddhist studies at respected tertiary institutions, are still very necessary, but that shouldn't stop others from already expressing how Western Buddhists try to come to terms with Buddhism, fitting it into their Western lives or building their Western lifestyle around Buddhism. And when Vlad writes "In much of the book the critique falls much more on Western culture than on Buddhism or its involvement in Western society." it doesn't matter on what the critique falls, as long as it is about the meeting of the West and Buddhism. One can look at the West through Buddhist eyes or at Buddhism through Western eyes. Richard wrote: "It is hoped that the autobiographical material will not be obtrusive but will be heard as just one more indistinguishable voice in the choir made up of those who have watched in dismay as the human race has accelerated the destruction of an entire planet through individual and collective forms of greed, through ideological blindness, through national and ethnic arrogance and individualistic complacency, and through a genetic and inescapable short-sightedness that predisposes all of us to experience the vast problems of life as a series of stereotypical images to which we can only react by gluing stickers on the bumpers of our cars, croaking shallow slogans, and raising our fists against the many demons that we ourselves invent to blame for all that goes wrong. (p.10)" There is not a single sanskrit word in the sentence, but I can see a Buddhist critique of the West in it. No more anger and bile than in the average good old church sermon :-) This is a general speaking to his troops before the battle, a coach boosting his team before a match etc. I find Vlad's review misses the mark almost completely and that's why I wondered why you wrote you were inclined to agree with about much of the criticisms expressed in it. Joy From sacivah at bigpond.net.au Thu Nov 3 05:31:46 2005 From: sacivah at bigpond.net.au (Rob Peterson) Date: Thu Nov 3 08:01:20 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] RE: seeking the Pali and Sanskrit term for "holy/religious/, sacred objects" In-Reply-To: <003f01c5dff7$bbbbf260$6900a8c0@vic.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <000001c5e072$8e906b10$9100a8c0@COM1> >...."BTW, Any other southern hemisphereans on the list? Yes, I'm right next door to you in Australia. Regards Kate G'Day, Sally and Kate, Yes there are other antipodeans lurking around, this one has been for several years somewhat intimidated by the studied stature of other correspondents. However, briefly, you might gain a little by glancing through a pretty tome "The World of Buddhism" edited by Bechert and Gombrich (ISBN 0-500-27628-5) or I could look more closely through my MA notes from U of Sunderland, PS try not to be misled by those up north, they're about to go into hibernation! Regards rob p From parisjm2004 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 3 10:37:13 2005 From: parisjm2004 at yahoo.com (Michael Paris) Date: Thu Nov 3 10:44:36 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] RE: seeking the Pali and Sanskrit term for "holy/religious/, sacred objects" In-Reply-To: <000001c5e072$8e906b10$9100a8c0@COM1> Message-ID: <20051103173713.52127.qmail@web32609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Not everwhere. In my part of Texas "winter" consists of temperatures less than 90 degrees F. Snow is seen perhaps one day every five to ten years, if that. We do occasionally get freezing rain. Afterwards the auto body shops are busy for months (Texans can't drive on slick surfaces). The last time a lake froze over was over a century ago. The clearest sign of no hibernation: the shopping malls are packed from the day after Thanksgiving until after New Years. Makes mall-walking impossible. Michael --- Rob Peterson wrote: > PS try not to be misled by those up north, they're about to go into hibernation! > __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From bcarral at kungzhi.org Sat Nov 5 18:51:29 2005 From: bcarral at kungzhi.org (Benito Carral) Date: Sat Nov 5 18:55:19 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Deep sleep Message-ID: <49210770.20051106025129@kungzhi.org> Dear Buddha-L friends, I have been some days out from Oviedo and I see that you have written quite a lot during this time. Here I'm to share with you a question related with deep sleep. Deep sleep has interested me since some years ago and I would like to know if someones knows some Buddhist text dealing with the deep sleep state. I'm interested in both conscious and unconscious deep sleep states. I know that there are different understandings of the topic. Now I'm trying to find so much information as possible about it. Thank you and best wishes, Beni From rahula_80 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 6 02:19:13 2005 From: rahula_80 at yahoo.com (Ngawang Dorje) Date: Sun Nov 6 02:25:26 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Deep sleep In-Reply-To: <49210770.20051106025129@kungzhi.org> Message-ID: <20051106091913.41041.qmail@web30215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Beni, I have heard of these two boks but never read them myself. 1. Sleeping, Dreaming an Dying (Dalai Lama etc) 2. The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche Best wishes, Rahula --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051106/d43eb43f/attachment.htm From rahula_80 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 6 02:22:09 2005 From: rahula_80 at yahoo.com (Ngawang Dorje) Date: Sun Nov 6 02:25:28 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Hindu's Criticism In-Reply-To: <49210770.20051106025129@kungzhi.org> Message-ID: <20051106092209.20220.qmail@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, See: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/buddhism.htm See also several links below that article. Had any Buddhist response to the critism by Hindus? Where can I find them? Thanks, Rahula --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051106/7cd7b02e/attachment.html From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 08:36:09 2005 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Sun Nov 6 08:45:32 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Deep sleep In-Reply-To: <49210770.20051106025129@kungzhi.org> References: <49210770.20051106025129@kungzhi.org> Message-ID: <66575063.20051106163609@gmail.com> In Buddhist texts: "Dreaming in the Lotus: Buddhist Dream Narrative, Imagery and Practice". Serinity Young, Wisdom Pub, About modern techniques, Stephen Laberge work can be interesting. Look in Amazon. SUNY has one series about the topic. http://www.sunypress.edu (search/subject: Dreams) sweet dreams, From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Sun Nov 6 09:13:41 2005 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Wong Weng Fai) Date: Sun Nov 6 09:15:33 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Hindu's Criticism In-Reply-To: <20051106092209.20220.qmail@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051106092209.20220.qmail@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Nov 2005, Ngawang Dorje wrote: > See: > http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/buddhism.htm > > Had any Buddhist response to the critism by Hindus? Where can I find them? There is a saying in Cantonese that aptly captures the whole thing in my humble opinion: a chicken talking to a duck ("chuck chuck chuck" "quack quack quack" "CHUCK! CHUCK! CHUCK!" "QUACK! QUACK! QUACK!"). I fail to see how citing from one's favorite scripture a stanza ad verbatim that says exactly the opposite of what your opponent says settles anything. W.F. Wong From s.mcara at auckland.ac.nz Sun Nov 6 21:33:59 2005 From: s.mcara at auckland.ac.nz (Sally McAra) Date: Sun Nov 6 21:36:52 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] more discussion on terms for Holy Objects in Buddhism Message-ID: <436ED937.6060007@auckland.ac.nz> Hi there, Thanks to all who replied. I am replying to most of the posts in a single post, since I get the emails in Digest form it seemed the most practical way to reply. -- -Michael Paris wrote "Your original message appeared directed to those qualified to answer, rather than addressed to any with some experience or thoughts in the subject." Quite right, I know I have digressed from my original inquiry about terminology, but I wanted to encourage (provoke) more people to say what they thought around the topic more generally. Now that I am participating in discussion rather than just sending out a brief inquiry, I may as well reflect some more? -- -Michael Paris wrote that he was inspired by a beautiful old catholic cathedral."That couldn't be more different from anything 'worldly' - business, homes, offices. The atmosphere inside - quiet, with a hint of echo ? is religious, spiritual at least. Other-worldly, so to speak." I know what you mean, I find some of those places beautiful, too (except not baroque,which is really not my cuppa!). But I find more of a sense of peace from being in the mountains or forest. The trouble is with built places that are meant to inspire awe, wonder, admiration, etc is that there may be awful things beneath the surface. For example, when I see gold on altars in Catholic churches, I can't help but think of the genocide of the Aztecs & Incas, and how some of their gold ended up in Cathedrals. I have also heard of impoverished laypeople in the Buddhist world borrowing money to buy gifts, etc etc for the monks (and presumably also for the temples, statues, stupas etc) while their own children are starving or going without basic healthcare, education etc. -- -Michael Paris wrote "Fairly recently a saint's relic - in a reliquary of course - was in Dallas for a days. The Catholic faithful turned out by the thousands. Clearly, such holy items have appeal to a significant number of people, and have for millenia. Why is another question. IMHO that's a question for psychology, perhaps sociology as well. Religion is complex and not entirely rational." Yes they had (some of) St Teresa of Lisieux' bones here in NZ recently, I wanted to go visit but didn't make it there. And of course, as part of my research I?ve helped with the running of some Buddhist relic exhibitions and noted how different communities respond differently to them? (and how diverse the responses can be even within one group. At one such event, the intended audience *stayed away* in droves!) -"In any event, I'm not sure you can see it from the participants' point of view. It may be entirely subjective, and can't be shared." You're quite right, I cannot experience someone else's experience. I should have spelt out more precisely that I am trying to learn about their points of view from their *expressions* (writings, talk, behaviour, etc.) of their experience. -- Thank you to Richard Nance and Stephen Hodge for your suggestions about the sources, terms, some helpful leads there. I am aware that the way Lama Zopa (or I, for that matter) might categorise things will be different from the way they did at the time such things were written, and that maybe the category I'm interested in does not exist? Perhaps I should be trying to find out more about the sources of Lama Zopa's "holy object" category via his organization? -- Curt wrote - 'Perhaps you are looking for an adjective rather than a noun. As in "holy" or "sacred" or "religious". In fact the original request was for "terms for holy/sacred/religious objects". Especially given that original phrasing there's no particular reason to assume that there must be a specific noun for "holy objects" - so long as there is an equivalent adjective for "holy".' In response to that, I'd say yes, the adjective on its own would also be useful; I just spoke with someone who speaks Hindi and he said for Hindus a temple is not so much 'sacred' as a 'ritually clean' space. So I'm aware that the categories used in English might not have the same meanings in Sanskrit, the old problem of cross-cultural translation. Any suggestions for how a Sanskrit-speaking Buddhist of the kind of bent that favours such things as consecrated objects for use as aids to practicing the Dharma? And is there a comparison for forms of Hinduism that do that? -- Thanks Rob for the reference, and Kate for the comment about the 3-D mandala (it seems that's a pretty common way of describing stupas, I?ve seen that a lot). Cheers Sally -- Sally McAra PhD candidate Department of Anthropology Faculty of Arts The University of Auckland Private Bag 92019 Auckland 1001 New Zealand Tel: 64-9 373 7599 Ext 88531 www.arts.auckland.ac.nz/anthro/Student%20Details/StudentPages/SallyMcara.htm From dbalexander2 at comcast.net Sun Nov 6 22:07:03 2005 From: dbalexander2 at comcast.net (David Alexander) Date: Mon Nov 7 07:58:36 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Hindu's Criticism References: <20051106092209.20220.qmail@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001001c5e359$1919e890$640fa8c0@youru3ef4ouuir> This may be helpful in comparing Vedanta and Buddhism. http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel002.html David ----- Original Message ----- From: Ngawang Dorje To: Buddhist discussion forum Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 3:22 AM Subject: [Buddha-l] Hindu's Criticism Hi, See: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/buddhism.htm See also several links below that article. Had any Buddhist response to the critism by Hindus? Where can I find them? Thanks, Rahula ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051106/45324bab/attachment.htm From niraya at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 01:39:28 2005 From: niraya at gmail.com (Petr Mares) Date: Mon Nov 7 08:02:00 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lankavatara Sutra dissertation and translation Message-ID: <00cb01c5e376$c5bd97f0$88f4dcd5@xao> Hello Can anybody help with finding two recent works on Lankavatara? One is dissertation of Dr. A.D.Forsten: Buddhology and the philosophical question of understanding: a study of "sva-citta-drsya-matra" in the 2nd chapter of the "Lankavatarasutra". http://www.onderzoekinformatie.nl/en/oi/nod/onderzoek/OND1262469/ I wrote to the secretary of the Department of Languages and Cultures of South and Central Asia in Leiden but they said they do not have a copy and do not know how to obtain it. I tried to send email to the dissertation superviser prof. Oudeman in Leiden, but got no response. I also tried to contact Dr. Forsten through his email address and I sent letter to his postal address in Holland - probably he had changed his address as I got no response from either. Can anybody help in obtaining this dissertation? Other question related to Lankavatara is about Prof. Akira Suganuma. I have been told he translated Lankavatara of Bodhiruci from Chinese into English and has not published it. Does anybody know whether that translation can be obtained or whether it is possible to contact directly prof. Akira Suganuma and ask him for the copy? Last question is whether anybody know of any other recent study/work/disserations/commentaries in any way related to Lankavatara Sutra? (All I know of recent titles is the four dissertations obtainable through UMI i.e. Sutton, Auden, Garcia and Kim) - and partial translation from the Vaidya edition by Anzan Hoshin) .Pointing to any other would be highly appreciated. Thank You Cordially Petr Mares -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051107/63209925/attachment.html From jehms at xs4all.nl Mon Nov 7 08:41:37 2005 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Mon Nov 7 08:45:51 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lankavatara Sutra dissertation and translation In-Reply-To: <00cb01c5e376$c5bd97f0$88f4dcd5@xao> References: <00cb01c5e376$c5bd97f0$88f4dcd5@xao> Message-ID: <436F75B1.9040905@xs4all.nl> Petr Mares schreef: > Hello > > Can anybody help with finding two recent works on Lankavatara? > > One is dissertation of Dr. A.D.Forsten: Buddhology and the > philosophical question of understanding: a study of > "sva-citta-drsya-matra" in the 2nd chapter of the "Lankavatarasutra". I've forwarded your e-mail to the private e-mail address of dr. Forsten. He's a decent guy and I'm sure he'll get back to you. Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms From srhodes at boulder.net Mon Nov 7 08:50:04 2005 From: srhodes at boulder.net (Steven Rhodes) Date: Mon Nov 7 08:55:54 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lankavatara Sutra dissertation and translation In-Reply-To: <00cb01c5e376$c5bd97f0$88f4dcd5@xao> References: <00cb01c5e376$c5bd97f0$88f4dcd5@xao> Message-ID: <436F77AC.1040508@boulder.net> There is a German translation of the sutra: > Die makellose Wahrheit erschauen. Die Lehre von der h?chsten > Bewu?theit und absoluten Erkenntnis. Das Lankavatara-Sutra. Aus dem > Sanskrit von Karl-Heinz Golzio > > Bern, M?nchen, Wien. O.W.Barth Verlag. 1996 Steven Rhodes Petr Mares wrote: > Hello > > Can anybody help with finding two recent works on Lankavatara? > > One is dissertation of Dr. A.D.Forsten: Buddhology and the > philosophical question of understanding: a study of > "sva-citta-drsya-matra" in the 2nd chapter of the "Lankavatarasutra". > > http://www.onderzoekinformatie.nl/en/oi/nod/onderzoek/OND1262469/ > > I wrote to the secretary of the Department of Languages and Cultures > of South and Central Asia in Leiden but they said they do not have a > copy and do not know how to obtain it. I tried to send email to the > dissertation superviser prof. Oudeman in Leiden, but got no > response. I also tried to contact Dr. Forsten through his email > address and I sent letter to his postal address in Holland - probably > he had changed his address as I got no response from either. > Can anybody help in obtaining this dissertation? > > Other question related to Lankavatara is about Prof. Akira Suganuma. I > have been told he translated Lankavatara of Bodhiruci from Chinese > into English and has not published it. Does anybody know whether that > translation can be obtained or whether it is possible to contact > directly prof. Akira Suganuma and ask him for the copy? > > Last question is whether anybody know of any other recent > study/work/disserations/commentaries in any way related to Lankavatara > Sutra? (All I know of recent titles is the four dissertations > obtainable through UMI i.e. Sutton, Auden, Garcia and Kim) - and > partial translation from the Vaidya edition by Anzan Hoshin) .Pointing > to any other would be highly appreciated. > > Thank You > > Cordially > > Petr Mares > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051107/49772e83/attachment-0001.html From bsimon at toad.net Tue Nov 8 17:27:50 2005 From: bsimon at toad.net (Bernie Simon) Date: Tue Nov 8 17:36:17 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Plundered Art Message-ID: I thought some list members might be interested in this: US to investigate Chinese looting of Tibet http://www.theartnewspaper.com/article01.asp?id=57 As the US considers China?s request for restrictions on the import of archaeological material, the question of China?s alleged organised plunder of Tibetan artefacts is about to come under US congressional scrutiny. The move is likely to be seized upon by dealers in the US who oppose restrictions on the trade in Chinese artefacts. Dana Rohrabacher, a conservative Republican representative in the United States Congress and a long-standing critic of China?s human rights record, has announced he will lead an investigation into what he suspects was the systematic looting of Tibetan art and objects by Chinese authorities since the 1949 Communist revolution. The inquiry has coincided with a high profile auction in Beijing of artefacts that previously belonged to Tibetan monasteries, and which seeped out into international markets sometime last century before being bought by the leading Taiwan-based collector Wang Du. ---- So who is rich and who is poor I cannot say From bcarral at kungzhi.org Tue Nov 8 18:53:58 2005 From: bcarral at kungzhi.org (Benito Carral) Date: Tue Nov 8 18:56:18 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Deep sleep In-Reply-To: <20051106091913.41041.qmail@web30215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <49210770.20051106025129@kungzhi.org> <20051106091913.41041.qmail@web30215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <643150874.20051109025358@kungzhi.org> On Sunday, November 6, 2005, Rahula wrote: Thank you very much for the references. > 1. Sleeping, Dreaming an Dying (Dalai Lama etc) I have this book and have read it some years ago. I don't remember that it contains a clear discussion of the deep sleep state, but maybe my memory is not working well here. > 2. The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep I have this book and I'm going to quote the relevant passages because maybe someone could be interested: The normal process of sleep occurs as consciousness withdraws from the senses and the mind loses itself in distraction, thinning out in mental images and thoughts until it dissolves in darkness. Unconsciousness then lasts until dreams arise. [...] Sleep is dark because we lose consciousness in it. It seems to be empty of experience because we identify with the gross mind, which ceases to function during sleep. [...] Although we define sleep as unconsciousness, the darkness and experiental blankness are not the essence of sleep. For pure awareness that is our basis there is no sleep. When not afflicted with obscurations, dreams, or thoughts, the moving mind dissolves into the nature of mind; then, rather than the sleep of ignorance, clarity, peacefulness, and bliss arise. Tenzin Wangyal Rimpoche, 1998, p. 143. This view is in harmony with what Ven. Jing-hui told me in a personal meeting in 2002 at the abbot's quarters of Bailin-si (Hebei, China). I wonder if there are more textual references of this state. It is also interesting to contrast this view with the one expressed by Ramesh S. Balsekar (Advaita): In deep sleep the sentient being himself is not there. So the Consciousness in deep sleep not aware of itself, is the original state. Then in the waking state, the first moment of awakening is Consciousness becoming aware of itself. And if there are other sentient beings, then inter-human relationships arise. But if there are no other sentient beings, then there is only Consciousness observing the manifestation, and there is no sense of '"me." There is merely a sense of awareness of the manifestation. No "me" and no "other" exist. Consciousness Speaks, 1992, p. 77. Best wishes, Beni From srhodes at boulder.net Tue Nov 8 19:13:27 2005 From: srhodes at boulder.net (Steven Rhodes) Date: Tue Nov 8 19:16:19 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Deep sleep In-Reply-To: <643150874.20051109025358@kungzhi.org> References: <49210770.20051106025129@kungzhi.org> <20051106091913.41041.qmail@web30215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <643150874.20051109025358@kungzhi.org> Message-ID: <43715B47.7010303@boulder.net> Dear Benito, You might want to look at the revised and enlarged edition of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's Dream Yoga and the Practice of Natural Light (Snow Lion Publications, 2002). Best wishes, Steven Rhodes Benito Carral wrote: >On Sunday, November 6, 2005, Rahula wrote: > > Thank you very much for the references. > > > >>1. Sleeping, Dreaming an Dying (Dalai Lama etc) >> >> > > I have this book and have read it some years ago. I >don't remember that it contains a clear discussion of >the deep sleep state, but maybe my memory is not >working well here. > > > >>2. The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep >> >> > > I have this book and I'm going to quote the relevant >passages because maybe someone could be interested: > > The normal process of sleep occurs as > consciousness withdraws from the senses and the > mind loses itself in distraction, thinning out > in mental images and thoughts until it dissolves > in darkness. Unconsciousness then lasts until > dreams arise. [...] > > Sleep is dark because we lose consciousness > in it. It seems to be empty of experience > because we identify with the gross mind, which > ceases to function during sleep. [...] > > Although we define sleep as unconsciousness, > the darkness and experiental blankness are not > the essence of sleep. For pure awareness that is > our basis there is no sleep. When not afflicted > with obscurations, dreams, or thoughts, the > moving mind dissolves into the nature of mind; > then, rather than the sleep of ignorance, > clarity, peacefulness, and bliss arise. > > Tenzin Wangyal Rimpoche, 1998, p. 143. > > This view is in harmony with what Ven. Jing-hui told >me in a personal meeting in 2002 at the abbot's >quarters of Bailin-si (Hebei, China). I wonder if there >are more textual references of this state. > > It is also interesting to contrast this view with >the one expressed by Ramesh S. Balsekar (Advaita): > > In deep sleep the sentient being himself is not > there. So the Consciousness in deep sleep not > aware of itself, is the original state. Then in > the waking state, the first moment of awakening > is Consciousness becoming aware of itself. And > if there are other sentient beings, then > inter-human relationships arise. But if there > are no other sentient beings, then there is only > Consciousness observing the manifestation, and > there is no sense of '"me." There is merely a > sense of awareness of the manifestation. No "me" > and no "other" exist. > > Consciousness Speaks, 1992, p. 77. > > Best wishes, > > Beni > >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051108/2ad08b95/attachment.html From tccahill at loyno.edu Thu Nov 10 08:11:52 2005 From: tccahill at loyno.edu (Timothy C. Cahill) Date: Thu Nov 10 08:16:47 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism & American Christianity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Friends & Colleagues, One of my students (displaced by Hurricane Katrina) is trying to write a senior thesis on the influence of Buddhism on modern American Christianity. I had pointed her in the direction of sources on Buddhist-Christian dialogue, but she (rightly) seeks more. If anyone can supply me with sources I would greatly appreciate it. Her exact words are pasted below. best, Tim Cahill -------------------- I'm having difficulty finding anything that really addresses my topic (how Buddhism has affected modern American Christianity). I have tons of resources for interreligious dialogue between Christians and Buddhists: finding similarities and differences, but nothing that actually addresses how/if Christianity has changed due to these new currents. I want to address the Vatican II Council, but I have no interest in arguing that the conclusions and statements of that council where chiefly due to Christian encounters with Buddhism. From bseidner at earthlink.net Thu Nov 10 09:42:22 2005 From: bseidner at earthlink.net (Bruce G. Seidner Ph.D.) Date: Thu Nov 10 09:47:58 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism & American Christianity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20051110110908.03073758@earthlink.net> There was the brouhaha in the mid 90's around the Pope's characterization of Buddhism as nihilistic and the mea culpa conference that invited Buddhist representatives to rework the Vatican's statement and characterization of Buddhism. I never saw the finished statement. But this likely changed little in the church. Especially now, with Pope Benedict in place. I can't imagine any doctrinal influences. (Though, if you look really closely at photographs from the Vatican II Council, you can just make out the image of Manjushri above the head of Pope John.) I attended a Jesuit college for a couple years as an undergraduate and a number of my Jesuit professors where avid students of Zen. More substantive is the example of Merton and the reinvigoration of the contemplative traditions in Christianity. There are delightful anecdotes in his Asian Journal and more formal expression in his other written work, if memory serves. We have a number of Christian folks of sundry stripes in Knoxville who travel up to Gethsemani Abbey in Kentucky for retreats. I know of a Catholic priest who leads "centering meditation/prayer" groups in Knoxville. Maybe there are "practice" shifts that could be documented. The "centering meditation" folks talk explicitly of Buddhist influence. Bruce At 10:11 AM 11/10/2005, you wrote: >Dear Friends & Colleagues, > > One of my students (displaced by Hurricane Katrina) is trying to > write a senior thesis on the influence of Buddhism on modern > American Christianity. I had pointed her in the direction of > sources on Buddhist-Christian dialogue, but she (rightly) seeks > more. If anyone can supply me with sources I would greatly > appreciate it. Her exact words are pasted below. > >best, >Tim Cahill > > >-------------------- >I'm having difficulty finding anything that really addresses my topic (how >Buddhism has affected modern American Christianity). I have tons of >resources for interreligious dialogue between Christians and Buddhists: >finding similarities and differences, but nothing that actually addresses >how/if Christianity has changed due to these new currents. I want to >address the Vatican II Council, but I have no interest in arguing that the >conclusions and statements of that council where chiefly due to Christian >encounters with Buddhism. >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l Bruce G. Seidner, Ph.D. 1111 Northshore Drive Clinical & Forensic Psychology Ste S-490 Family Mediation Knoxville, TN 37919 865.584.0171 office 865.584.0174 fax bseidner@earthlink.net ********************************************************************** The information transmitted is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. ********************************************************************** From ziobro at wfu.edu Thu Nov 10 12:50:23 2005 From: ziobro at wfu.edu (Stanley J. Ziobro II) Date: Thu Nov 10 12:56:50 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism & American Christianity In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20051110110908.03073758@earthlink.net> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20051110110908.03073758@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Nov 2005, Bruce G. Seidner Ph.D. wrote: > Maybe there are "practice" shifts that could be documented. The > "centering meditation" folks talk explicitly of Buddhist influence. Bruce, Your remarks bring to mind the writings of Enomiya LaSalle and the Jesuits who taught at Sophia University in Tokyo. These may be of some interest here. Stan Ziobro From curt at cola.iges.org Thu Nov 10 14:36:28 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Thu Nov 10 14:36:51 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism & American Christianity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4373BD5C.2090002@cola.iges.org> Buddhism and Christianity both live on many different levels. One of those levels is that of "religious vocation". This is the realm of people whose lives are primarily devoted to or revolve around religion itself. While the total number of Christians in American probably outnumbers the total number of Buddhist by 10,000:1 or something like that - at the level of individuals who are sincerely seeking a religious vocation, Buddhism competes head to head with Christianity, and might even have an edge (of course I lack statistics to back this up - but, hey, I don't mind!). Intelligent, well educated, serious minded young people who want to devote their lives to a religious vocation (the backbone of the clergy in any religion) are increasingly unlikely to be drawn to Christianity in America, or in Europe for that matter. They are far more likely to be drawn to Buddhism. While hard statistics are, well, hard to come by in terms of a direct head to head comparison, the "recruitment" statistics for the Catholic clergy are pretty illuminating. The number of intelligent, well educated, serious minded young people interested in becoming Catholic priests is rapidly approaching zero in America and Europe. And its not just the numbers that matter here - but the quality of the "material". Its never been a challenge to find people who are willing to exchange honest work for the guaranteed daily three square meals and free room and board (not to mention the health insurance and retirement benefits) that are part of the Priestly package - but getting people you really want and who are genuinely up to the job has always been the real issue. If your student wants to see how Buddhism is affecting Christianity I would suggest she interview seminarians and ask them how they have been influenced by Buddhism, and ask Seminary teachers how they think their students have been affected by Buddhism. If she can possibly track down some Carmelite nuns they would probably love to tell her about how they have been influenced by Buddhism. - Curt Timothy C. Cahill wrote: > > Dear Friends & Colleagues, > > One of my students (displaced by Hurricane Katrina) is trying to > write a senior thesis on the influence of Buddhism on modern American > Christianity. I had pointed her in the direction of sources on > Buddhist-Christian dialogue, but she (rightly) seeks more. If anyone > can supply me with sources I would greatly appreciate it. Her exact > words are pasted below. > > best, > Tim Cahill > > > -------------------- > I'm having difficulty finding anything that really addresses my topic > (how > Buddhism has affected modern American Christianity). I have tons of > resources for interreligious dialogue between Christians and Buddhists: > finding similarities and differences, but nothing that actually addresses > how/if Christianity has changed due to these new currents. I want to > address the Vatican II Council, but I have no interest in arguing that > the > conclusions and statements of that council where chiefly due to Christian > encounters with Buddhism. > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From myquagga at yahoo.com Thu Nov 10 13:13:44 2005 From: myquagga at yahoo.com (Michael Wright) Date: Thu Nov 10 17:54:27 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] buddhism and christianity In-Reply-To: <200511101900.jAAJ0Or4011293@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <20051110201344.9323.qmail@web51005.mail.yahoo.com> hi, i'm new to the list. i don't know if she will have concrete information but my buddhist teacher, sister ellie finlay, is a nun in an episcopal church here in tulsa, and seems to have a keen insight into the cross-over between the two belief systems. her email address: efinlay@intcon.net. she might be able to offer other resources as well. michael Michael Wright Applied Associate Professor of Creative Writing and Theatre Director, The Interdisciplinary Program in Creative Writing The University of Tulsa (918) 631-3174, fax (918) 631-5155 __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From jhayes at unm.edu Thu Nov 10 13:24:41 2005 From: jhayes at unm.edu (Judy Howe Hayes) Date: Thu Nov 10 17:54:29 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: buddha-l Digest, Vol 9, Issue 11 References: <200511101900.jAAJ0Or2011293@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <000801c5e634$cac6c800$6701a8c0@EarthSky> > Dear Friends & Colleagues, > > One of my students (displaced by Hurricane Katrina) is trying to write > a senior thesis on the influence of Buddhism on modern American > Christianity. I had pointed her in the direction of sources on > Buddhist-Christian dialogue, but she (rightly) seeks more. If anyone can > supply me with sources I would greatly appreciate it. Her exact words are > pasted below. > > best, > Tim Cahill As mentioned, there is much out there on Buddhist-Christian dialogues. In regards to practice and how contact with Buddhism, specifically Zen, transformed the life and Christian teachings of one Jesuit priest, please see Always a Pilgrim: Walking the Zen Christian Path by Thomas G. Hand, S.J. and Crossing Over Together: Selections from the writings and talks of Thomas G. Hand, edited by Judy Howe Hayes. Thomas Hand was the Director of the East-West Center and meditation program at the Mercy Center in Burlingame, CA, a retreat and training center run by the Catholic Sisters of Mercy, until his death one month ago at the age of 84. They are available through the bookstore at www.mercy-center.org. > > > From bclough at aucegypt.edu Thu Nov 10 18:26:24 2005 From: bclough at aucegypt.edu (bclough) Date: Thu Nov 10 18:36:54 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism & American Christianity Message-ID: >...I know of a Catholic priest who leads > "centering meditation/prayer" groups in Knoxville. Following Bruce's lead, your student, Tim, might want to look at the article titled "God Is In the Zendo" in the Aug. 1 2005 issue of Tricycle magazine. It's a profile of Father Robert Kennedy Roshi, Catholic priest and Zen teacher. Brad Clough From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Nov 10 21:47:31 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Thu Nov 10 21:56:57 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Buddhist influences on Christianity In-Reply-To: <000801c5e634$cac6c800$6701a8c0@EarthSky> References: <200511101900.jAAJ0Or2011293@ns1.swcp.com> <000801c5e634$cac6c800$6701a8c0@EarthSky> Message-ID: <1131684451.4714.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-11-10 at 13:24 -0700, Judy Howe Hayes wrote: > As mentioned, there is much out there on Buddhist-Christian dialogues. In > regards to practice and how contact with Buddhism, specifically Zen, > transformed the life and Christian teachings of one Jesuit priest, please > see Always a Pilgrim: Walking the Zen Christian Path by Thomas G. Hand, S.J. > and Crossing Over Together: Selections from the writings and talks of Thomas > G. Hand, edited by Judy Howe Hayes. The booklet entitled Crossing Over Together is also available on line at http://www.unm.edu/~jhayes/handokai.pdf. What Judy is too modest to say is that it is very nicely edited and makes a good read. -- Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Thu Nov 10 21:57:08 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Thu Nov 10 22:06:56 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism & American Christianity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1131685029.5737.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-11-10 at 09:11 -0600, Timothy C. Cahill wrote: > One of my students (displaced by Hurricane Katrina) is trying to write > a senior thesis on the influence of Buddhism on modern American > Christianity. Is she at all interested in looking at how some American Christians are denouncing Buddhism? A few American Christian web sites have come to my attention that offer trenchant critiques of Buddhism. If there is an interest, I can forward them to you. Is your student interested in looking at the considerable influence that American Christianity is having on American Buddhism? -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From jamesward at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 01:16:42 2005 From: jamesward at earthlink.net (James Ward) Date: Fri Nov 11 01:16:59 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: buddhism and christianity In-Reply-To: <20051110201344.9323.qmail@web51005.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051110201344.9323.qmail@web51005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7DE32EBF-528B-11DA-B365-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> The Tulsa area is a curiously "happening place" if one looks around a little, like most places with thinking people. The first Tibetan monks I met were briefly visiting the Osage Monastery (at least one sign on the way there says "OM"), maintained by Benedictine nuns if I remember right. Their services were very meditatively structured, syncretic without imagery and proper nouns. I think at least one of the sisters had been to India more than once, as well. I liked it a lot -- it's a very peaceful place. James Ward On Nov 10, 2005, at 12:13 PM, Michael Wright wrote: > hi, i'm new to the list. i don't know if she will > have concrete information but my buddhist teacher, > sister ellie finlay, is a nun in an episcopal church > here in tulsa, and seems to have a keen insight into > the cross-over between the two belief systems. her > email address: efinlay@intcon.net. she might be able > to offer other resources as well. > > michael > > Michael Wright > Applied Associate Professor of Creative Writing and Theatre > Director, The Interdisciplinary Program in Creative Writing > The University of Tulsa > (918) 631-3174, fax (918) 631-5155 From eklektik at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 07:40:27 2005 From: eklektik at gmail.com (Hugo) Date: Fri Nov 11 07:47:05 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism & American Christianity In-Reply-To: <4373BD5C.2090002@cola.iges.org> References: <4373BD5C.2090002@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <7964f6db0511110640r588467fo122c5a3fda900da6@mail.gmail.com> Hello, On 11/10/05, curt wrote: > students have been affected by Buddhism. If she can possibly track down > some Carmelite nuns they would probably love to tell her about how they > have been influenced by Buddhism. While googling for "Carmelite nuns buddhism" I found: "FRUIT SALAD CAN BE DELICIOUS": THE PRACTICE OF BUDDHIST-CHRISTIAN DIALOGUE by Paul O. Ingram http://www.crosscurrents.org/Ingram2.htm#TEXT2 Excerpt: Fourth, interreligious dialogue presupposes that truth is relational in structure. It may not be quite correct to think that truth is relative, but our sense of truth is certainly relational. We can only understand from the perspective we occupy; we can only apprehend whatever truth is from the particular cultural, religious, social, gender-specific perspectives we inhabit. For this reason, Carmelite nuns practicing contemplative prayer do not ordinarily experience the Buddha nature underlying every thing and event at every moment of space-time. Nor do Buddhist nuns ordinarily experience mystical union with Christ the Bridegroom as the result of their meditative practice. Since no one and no religious tradition can enclose the whole of reality -- the way things really are as opposed to the way we desire things to be -- within its particular institutional and doctrinal boundaries, dialogue reveals how the faith and practice of another faithful human can challenge, stretch, and enliven our particular self-awareness as religious persons. In other words, the purpose of interreligious dialogue is mutual creative transformation.(2) Greetings, -- Hugo From ziobro at wfu.edu Fri Nov 11 10:09:18 2005 From: ziobro at wfu.edu (Stanley J. Ziobro II) Date: Fri Nov 11 10:17:06 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: buddhism and christianity In-Reply-To: <7DE32EBF-528B-11DA-B365-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> References: <20051110201344.9323.qmail@web51005.mail.yahoo.com> <7DE32EBF-528B-11DA-B365-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Nov 2005, James Ward wrote: > The Tulsa area is a curiously "happening place" if one looks around a > little, like most places with thinking people. The first Tibetan monks > I met were briefly visiting the Osage Monastery (at least one sign on > the way there says "OM"), maintained by Benedictine nuns if I remember > right. Their services were very meditatively structured, syncretic > without imagery and proper nouns. I think at least one of the sisters > had been to India more than once, as well. I liked it a lot -- it's a > very peaceful place. Sr. Pasqualine Coff might be the nun of whom you're thinking. When I was a monk I had connections with Tibetan and Son Buddhists. On several occasions I had them over for varying lengths of time for dialogue and simply sharing our life. What impressed me about these episodes was the implicit understanding and appreciation we held towards one another based on the general monastic ethos that seems to cut across doctrinal and cultural lines. Stan Ziobro From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Nov 11 11:32:06 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Fri Nov 11 11:37:07 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism Message-ID: <1131733926.4604.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> A couple of people have asked about my references to on-line critiques of Buddhism on American Christian websites. I have several items printed out on my desk at work, but I'm at home now. I'll supply the references later. Meanwhile, here are some non-American and not necessarily Christian sites that have some criticisms of Buddhism (or a straw man version thereof): www.preachtheword.cp.uk/transcripts/cults08.html is the eighth item in a series on "dangerous Satanic cults" that have invaded the Christian world. www.vexen.co.uk/religion/buddhism_criticism.html has some positive things to say about some Buddhist teachings but criticizes the Buddhist religion as a whole for smothering the Buddha's insight in a mystifying confusion of rituals and obfuscations. (Gosh, that sounds like something I might have written! But I didn't.) If you are interested in going to a Buddhist site that singles out some allegedly pseudo-Buddhist cults for condemnation in no uncertain terms, take a look at www.buddhistcouncil.org/cults.htm for spirited denunciations of Falun Gong, Aum Shinrikyo, Soka Gakkai and NKT. (Often sites that decry SGI and NKT also denounce the FWBO, but they seem to have escaped the attention of this particular Buddhist Council.) I'll send other references early next week. -- Richard Hayes _____ "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul." -- Mark Twain From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 14:12:25 2005 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Fri Nov 11 14:17:09 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism & American Christianity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gang, Robert E. Kennedy Roshi, S.J., has also written a book on his vision of Zen Christianity. Check out his site: http://kennedyzen.tripod.com/. Ruben Habito has written serveral. Here's his site: http://www.mkzc.org/. The influence of Zen on some Catholics, particularly in Jesuit circles, has been remarkable. Don't think it's filtering down much to the grassroots, though. Franz From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Nov 11 16:25:37 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Fri Nov 11 16:27:12 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mermaids Message-ID: <1131751537.13647.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> One of the local Thai temples has a number of mermaids on the altar and outside. Outside, they sit adoringly at the Buddha's feet. Mermaids are not common in New Mexico, although we do have quite a few jackalopes. Does anyone know of Buddhist associations with mermaids, or might this be a quirk of this particular temple? -- Richard From chanfu at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 18:11:49 2005 From: chanfu at gmail.com (Chan Fu) Date: Fri Nov 11 18:17:12 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mermaids In-Reply-To: <1131751537.13647.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1131751537.13647.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 11/11/05, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > One of the local Thai temples has a number of mermaids on the altar and > outside. Outside, they sit adoringly at the Buddha's feet. > > Mermaids are not common in New Mexico, although we do have quite a few > jackalopes. Does anyone know of Buddhist associations with mermaids, or > might this be a quirk of this particular temple? > > -- > Richard They're not uncommon in some temples around the Gulf. Whether the goofy 8-faced Buddhas of the north (Chaing Rai, etc.) are any better is a matter of taste. I prefer the mermaids, though they're a bit fishy. In another few decades, we should expect simiilar temples (with jackalopes, of course) in, say, New Hampshire. Personification and adaptation being what they are, it shouldn't be long before a temple made solely of wrecked Ford pickup trucks appears on this Virginia landscape... From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 19:26:59 2005 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Fri Nov 11 19:37:14 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism & American Christianity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2710495361.20051112032659@gmail.com> TCC> I had pointed her in the direction of sources on TCC> Buddhist-Christian dialogue, but she (rightly) seeks more. I read many times this site of the Benedict Order in the USA. It is one of the best in all the Internet, both in contents and spirit: http://www.monasticdialogue.org/ br, From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Sat Nov 12 07:27:14 2005 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Wong Weng Fai) Date: Sat Nov 12 07:27:26 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1131733926.4604.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1131733926.4604.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Nov 2005, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > If you are interested in going to a Buddhist site that singles out some > allegedly pseudo-Buddhist cults for condemnation in no uncertain terms, > take a look at www.buddhistcouncil.org/cults.htm for spirited > denunciations of Falun Gong, Aum Shinrikyo, Soka Gakkai and NKT. (Often > sites that decry SGI and NKT also denounce the FWBO, but they seem to > have escaped the attention of this particular Buddhist Council.) They listed: - Falun Gong - Suma Ching Hai - True Buddha Order - Aum Shinrikyo - Soka Gakkai - Rissho Kosei Kai - I Kuan Tao - New Kadampa Tradition All of these are active (in various degree - except may be Rissho Kosei Kai) in where I am. I am interested to hear what people on this list think. In particular, which of the above is correctly labelled a "Buddhist cults" and which suffered an injustice, and more importantly, why. W. F. Wong From jamesward at earthlink.net Sat Nov 12 23:36:06 2005 From: jamesward at earthlink.net (James Ward) Date: Sat Nov 12 23:37:35 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: buddhism and christianity In-Reply-To: References: <20051110201344.9323.qmail@web51005.mail.yahoo.com> <7DE32EBF-528B-11DA-B365-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hi Stan, You wrote: > Sr. Pasqualine Coff might be the nun of whom you're thinking. Well remembered! Yes, she is just the person. > When I was a monk I had connections with Tibetan and Son Buddhists. > On several occasions I had them over for varying lengths of time for > dialogue and simply sharing our life. What impressed me about these > episodes was the implicit understanding and appreciation we held > towards one another based on the general monastic ethos that seems to > cut across doctrinal and cultural lines. I can imagine how that would be so, at least for open-minded people of the relatively recent past and present. I'm glad the experience was worthwhile -- the parliament continues :) James From jamesward at earthlink.net Sun Nov 13 08:39:32 2005 From: jamesward at earthlink.net (James Ward) Date: Sun Nov 13 08:47:43 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] From the Bibliography of Indian Philosophies Message-ID: This page from the Bibliography of Indian Philosophies might be of interest. The site is maintained by Karl H. Potter of the University of Washington. Note that the page is quite large and may take a little time to load. Primary Texts and Literature About Them or Their Authors: Part I: Texts Whose Authors Can Be Dated -- Authors Listed Chronologically -- Before the Christian Era through 4th century http://faculty.washington.edu/kpotter/xtxt1.htm James Ward From curt at cola.iges.org Mon Nov 14 09:22:40 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Mon Nov 14 09:28:04 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <1131733926.4604.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4378B9D0.9030002@cola.iges.org> The critique of New Kadampa seemed to me almost totally unwarranted. It does seem reasonable that anyone who supports or allies themself with the Dalai Lama, whom the NKT criticizes pretty harshly, would criticize the NKT in return. But to label the NKT a cult obviously clouds the issue and appears to be aimed at discouraging people from finding out more. Most, if not all, of Tantric Buddhism, is very close to what westerners would generally consider "cultish". Veneration of living human beings and insistence upon the reality of magical powers are universal features of "Tantra" (whether Buddhist or Hindu) - and they are often enough to get a religion labeled as a cult. I think that anytime someone wants to start labeling groups as "cults" or "dangerous cults" a simple reality check should be done to see if the criteria being used would apply to the Catholic Church. This doesn't prove that the Catholic Church is or is not a cult, dangerous or otherwise - or that the criteria being used are well founded or not. But it does help to put the "accusation" in some kind of context. There is no attempt made on the web page in question to state, even vaguely, what criteria are being used to label various groups as "cults". The main page for the "Buddhist Council of New South Wales" actually looks pretty "cultish" to me. The very fact that they bother to maintain a list of Buddhist groups that they don't like - and label them as "cults" - is pretty creepy and probably a sign that they are themselves a cult - and a dangerous one to boot (that's one of my own personal criteria for "creepy cults to avoid"). - Curt Wong Weng Fai wrote: >On Fri, 11 Nov 2005, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > > > >>If you are interested in going to a Buddhist site that singles out some >>allegedly pseudo-Buddhist cults for condemnation in no uncertain terms, >>take a look at www.buddhistcouncil.org/cults.htm for spirited >>denunciations of Falun Gong, Aum Shinrikyo, Soka Gakkai and NKT. (Often >>sites that decry SGI and NKT also denounce the FWBO, but they seem to >>have escaped the attention of this particular Buddhist Council.) >> >> > >They listed: > > - Falun Gong > - Suma Ching Hai > - True Buddha Order > - Aum Shinrikyo > - Soka Gakkai > - Rissho Kosei Kai > - I Kuan Tao > - New Kadampa Tradition > >All of these are active (in various degree - except may be Rissho Kosei >Kai) in where I am. I am interested to hear what people on this list >think. In particular, which of the above is correctly labelled a "Buddhist >cults" and which suffered an injustice, and more importantly, why. > >W. F. Wong > >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Nov 14 10:12:13 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon Nov 14 10:18:03 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1131733926.4604.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1131733926.4604.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1131988333.5154.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-11-11 at 11:32 -0700, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > I'll send other references early next week. The New Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.advent.org) has an article on Buddhism that they say was written in 1910. (Right up to date, that.) They recommend reading the article and then doing a prayerful reading of the document "Nostra aetate" from the Second Vatican Council. (There is a short paragraph on Buddhism there, along with the claim that the Catholic Church "condemns nothing that is true" in the teachings of the Buddha. Although rather short on specific details about what may be true in Buddhism, the document does say that Buddhism acknowledges the inadequacy of the world and of the Republican party. (Maybe part of that was just a fantasy on my part.) I had several references to Buddhism in various evangelical web sites, but I can't find most of them now. It's probably just as well. They weren't very accurate. The only one I can find is http://www.christiananswers.net/evangelism/beliefs/buddhism.html. This handy site tells earnest evangelical Christians how to go about converting Buddhists. Probably one of the strangest web sites on someone's idea of Buddhism I have found recently is http://www.attan.com/ , which sports the largest collection of swastikas I have found on any one page. It might be a little difficult to spend more than three minutes looking at that site without becoming mentally ill. -- Richard From chanfu at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 17:48:39 2005 From: chanfu at gmail.com (Chan Fu) Date: Mon Nov 14 17:58:11 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1131988333.5154.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1131733926.4604.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1131988333.5154.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 11/14/05, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > On Fri, 2005-11-11 at 11:32 -0700, Richard P. Hayes wrote: > > > I'll send other references early next week. > > The New Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.advent.org) has an article on > Buddhism that they say was written in 1910. (Right up to date, that.) > They recommend reading the article and then doing a prayerful reading of > the document "Nostra aetate" from the Second Vatican Council. (There is > a short paragraph on Buddhism there, along with the claim that the > Catholic Church "condemns nothing that is true" in the teachings of the > Buddha. Although rather short on specific details about what may be true > in Buddhism, the document does say that Buddhism acknowledges the > inadequacy of the world and of the Republican party. (Maybe part of that > was just a fantasy on my part.) That whole thing is quite a hoot, actually... > I had several references to Buddhism in various evangelical web sites, > but I can't find most of them now. It's probably just as well. They > weren't very accurate. The only one I can find is > http://www.christiananswers.net/evangelism/beliefs/buddhism.html. This > handy site tells earnest evangelical Christians how to go about > converting Buddhists. > > Probably one of the strangest web sites on someone's idea of Buddhism I > have found recently is http://www.attan.com/ , which sports the largest > collection of swastikas I have found on any one page. It might be a > little difficult to spend more than three minutes looking at that site > without becoming mentally ill. Or just laughing your ass off... Kenny Wheeler has been a fixture on the public buddhist ng's for years, though recently silent. His principle assertion is that buddhist scripture (properly interpreted) affirms the existence of "soul". His neo-naziism seems secondary... Possibly of interest (though possibly not): http://www.jstor.org/journals/08820945.html http://www.cssr.org/soc_sbcs.htm http://home.btclick.com/scimah/argumentsagainstbuddhism.htm http://contenderministries.org/buddhism.php http://www.uhpress.hawaii.edu/journals/bcs/?db_name=uhpress http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/buddhist-christian_studies/ http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/mcb/ http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b13.html http://www.geocities.com/scimah/ChristianBuddhist.htm From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Nov 14 20:31:53 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P Hayes) Date: Mon Nov 14 20:38:11 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism Message-ID: <6597965.1132025513183.JavaMail.cpadmin@atik> Chan Fu wrote: >Or just laughing your ass off... >Kenny Wheeler has been a fixture on the public buddhist ng's >for years, Is this the jazz trumpeter born in Toronto? I used to hang out on buddhist news groups some years ago, but I couldn't stand the weather. More recently I tried hanging out with Unitarian Buddhists, but that was like trying to get nourishment by sucking on New Mexican sandstone. > though recently silent. His principle assertion >is that buddhist scripture (properly interpreted) affirms >the existence of "soul". So I gathered from the web site. I have no problem with soul talk. It doesn't seem incompatible in the least with anything I know about Buddhism. My only allergy is to people who think they have a monopoly on proper interpretation of Buddhist scripture. They remind me too much of Republicans, I guess. -- Richard From brburl at mailbag.com Mon Nov 14 23:23:44 2005 From: brburl at mailbag.com (Bruce Burrill) Date: Mon Nov 14 23:29:24 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1131988333.5154.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1131733926.4604.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1131988333.5154.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <7.0.0.10.2.20051115001507.022f5628@mailbag.com> At 11:12 AM 11/14/2005, you wrote: >Probably one of the strangest web sites on someone's idea of Buddhism I >have found recently is http://www.attan.com/ , which sports the largest >collection of swastikas I have found on any one page. It might be a >little difficult to spend more than three minutes looking at that site >without becoming mentally ill. This is Ken Wheeler's site. He is good friends with Zenmar aka Ardent Hollingworth the founder and master debater of Dark Zen. Wheeler is a self proclaimed "Doctor of Buddhology" and also goes by the Ven Shakya Aryanatta (self ordained). Here is is his Amazon.con review of Steven Collins' SELFLESS PERSONS: 4 of 18 people found the following review helpful: Horrific. In contradiction to the Suttas. Inaccurate, September 26, 2001 Reviewer: "kenleew" (United States) - See all my reviews This book would presume by its cover to prove that Buddhism is nihilism, but since there is no evidence as such in Sutta, this book has nothing within it but opinions and has nothing from the Suttas (Nikayas) to back up the authors missguided sectarian false views in contradiction to the corpus of Buddhism. Nowhere within the Scriptures of Buddhism is the True Self denied, but only that is must not be identified with the transitory and ephemeral aggregates of phenomena. Such that forms, feelings, perceptions, impulses, and mental machinations of the mind are temporal, unreal, arise and pass, and are of the realm of phenomena and cannot be construed as what is everlasting, best, real, and most dear of the True Self and therefore must not be identified with the Attan as such. Even now the world standard for Pali-English translation reference being the new "A Dictionary of Pali" by Margaret Cone states about the Attan (atta): [Sanskrit Atman], The self, the soul, as a permanent unchangeable, autonomous entity; p.70, Pali Text Society Without an entity that fares on, there are no grounds for rebirth, nothing which could be perfected, and Buddhism flies apart at the hinges without a basis. Since there is nothing of any substance of the aggregates which can recollect previous lives, and nothing everlasting within such temporal phenomena to be perfected to dwell within Perfection; There cannot be assumed even loosely that Buddhism can exist without the concept of the Attan, so offhandedly rejected by sectarian nihilism which runs contrary to sutta.We are more interested in what the Buddha said than what he didn't say, and as it pertains to the Attan, nothing is rejected but temporal aggregates, not the Attan. The greatest mistake made after the passing of Gotama Buddha was the arising of the non-doctrinal notion that Buddhism somehow preaches empirical-extinction. The much discussed doctrine of Anatta [an (not) Atta (True Self)] which occurs a little more than 240 times in the entirety of the Buddhist Nikayas is used only to describe that which cannot be identified with or clung to as genuinely real and everlasting, or possessed of the True Self in its proper identity. In some secular translations, the Atta has been translated in its various forms and compounds as a reflexive, i.e. oneself, himself, themselves; but no such reflexive terminology exists within the Pali language in which the Buddhist canon is recorded. The Atta (True Self) or the Attan, both in standalone and compound occur more than 23,000 times within scripture. DN 2.157 Therefore Ananda, stay as those who have their True Self as the illumination, as those who have their True Self as supreme refuge, as those who have no other as the refuge; as those who have the true law Dharma as the illumination, as those who have the Dharma as refuge, as those who have no other refuge. KN 3.78 And whoever, Ananda, either now or after my end will stay as those who have the True Self as the illumination, as those who have True Self as refuge, as those who have no other as the refuge...they among my bhikkhus shall reach the peak of immortality, provided they are desirous of training their True Self. AN 1.81 There is monks, an unborn, an unoriginated, an unmade, and an unformed. If there were not monks, this unborn, unoriginated, unmade and unformed, there would be no way out for the born, the originated, the made and the formed. There is no evidence within the Suttas to support the author and 10,000 passages to refute him to the contrary and no intelligent person could confuse this diatribe for the teachings of Buddhism ...Dr. of Buddhology From joy.vriens at nerim.net Tue Nov 15 06:07:42 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Tue Nov 15 06:08:23 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism & American Christianity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4379DD9E.8040701@nerim.net> Timothy C. Cahill wrote: > I'm having difficulty finding anything that really addresses my topic (how > Buddhism has affected modern American Christianity). I have tons of > resources for interreligious dialogue between Christians and Buddhists: > finding similarities and differences, but nothing that actually addresses > how/if Christianity has changed due to these new currents. The following letter by a German cardinal called Ratzinger could be of interest, considering his recent promotion. Letter on certain aspects of the Christian meditation ? Orationis formas (Epistula ad totius Catholicae Ecclesiae Episcopos de quibusdam rationibus christianae meditationis), October 15, 1989 AAS 82 (1990) 362-379; DeS 13 (1991) OR 15.12.1989 [Ital.]; DocCath 87 (1990) 16-22 [Gall.]; EV 11, 1668-1705; LE 5360; Dokumenty, II, 24 It shows that Christianity or more precisely Catholicism has not changed a bit, but uses the same negative dogmatic attitude against any form of prayer or meditation that doesn't contain the whole imagery of the Trinity as in the past against its own more mystically enclined currents. quote: 12. With the present diffusion of eastern methods of meditation in the Christian world and in ecclesial communities, we find ourselves faced with a pointed renewal of an attempt, which is not free from dangers and errors, "to fuse Christian meditation with that which is non-Christian." Proposals in this direction are numerous and radical to a greater or lesser extent. Some use eastern methods solely as a psycho-physical preparation for a truly Christian contemplation; others go further and, using different techniques, try to generate spiritual experiences similar to those described in the writings of certain Catholic mystics.(13) Still others do not hesitate to place that absolute without image or concepts, which is proper to Buddhist theory, (14) on the same level as the majesty of God revealed in Christ, which towers above finite reality. To this end, they make use of a "negative theology," which transcends every affirmation seeking to express what God is, and denies that the things of this world can offer traces of the infinity of God. Thus they propose abandoning not only meditation on the salvific works accomplished in history by the God of the Old and New Covenant, but also the very idea of the One and Triune God, who is Love, in favor of an immersion "in the indeterminate abyss of the divinity."(15) These and similar proposals to harmonize Christian meditation with eastern techniques need to have their contents and methods ever subjected to a thorough-going examination so as to avoid the danger of falling into syncretism. 11.In the Middle Ages there existed extreme trends on the fringe of the Church. These were described not without irony, by one of the great Christian contemplatives, the Flemish Jan van Ruysbroek. He distinguished three types of deviations in the mystical life ("Die gheestelike Brulocht" 228. 12-230, 17: 230. 18-32. 22: 232. 23-236. 6) and made a general critique of these forms (236, 7-237, 29). Similar techniques were subsequently identified and dismissed by St. Teresa of Avila who perceptively observed that "the very care taken not to think about anything will arouse the mind to think a great deal," and that the separation of the mystery of Christ from Christian meditation is always a form of "betrayal" (see: St. Teresa of Jesus. Vida 12, 5 and 22, 1-5). 12. Pope John Paul II has pointed out to the whole Church the example and the doctrine of St. Teresa of Avila who in her life had to reject the temptation of certain methods which proposed a leaving aside of the humanity of Christ in favor of a vague self-immersion in the abyss of the divinity. In a homily given on November I, 1982, he said that the call of Teresa of Jesus advocating a prayer completely centered on Christ "is valid, even in our day, against some methods of prayer which are not inspired by the Gospel and which in practice tend to set Christ aside in preference for a mental void which makes no sense in Christianity. Any method of prayer is valid insofar as it is inspired by Christ and leads to Christ who is the Way, the Truth and the Life (cf. Jn 14:6)." See: "Homilia Abulae habita in honorem Sanctae Teresiae:" AAS 75 (1983), 256-257. 13. See, for example. "The Cloud of Unknowing," a spiritual work by an anonymous English writer of the fourteenth century. 14. In Buddhist religious texts, the concept of "Nirvana" is understood as a state of quiet consisting in the extinction of every tangible reality insofar as it is transient, and as such delusive and sorrowful. 15. Meister Eckhart speaks of an immersion "in the indeterminate abyss of the divinity" which is a "darkness in which the light of the Trinity never shines." Cf. "Sermo 'Ave Gratia Plena'" in fine (J. Quint, "Deutsche Predigten und Traktate" Hanser 1955, 261). http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=2932 From jpeavler at mindspring.com Tue Nov 15 13:06:10 2005 From: jpeavler at mindspring.com (Jim Peavler) Date: Tue Nov 15 13:08:25 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <6597965.1132025513183.JavaMail.cpadmin@atik> References: <6597965.1132025513183.JavaMail.cpadmin@atik> Message-ID: <227B1306-80C4-4DC7-A4A1-CAF28A6C5CBE@mindspring.com> On Nov 14, 2005, at 8:31 PM, Richard P Hayes wrote: > More recently I tried hanging out with > Unitarian Buddhists, but that was like trying to get nourishment by > sucking on New Mexican sandstone. > I have had a similar sensation from that list. If things don't pick up in another week I aim to unsubscribe. From brburl at mailbag.com Tue Nov 15 13:59:48 2005 From: brburl at mailbag.com (Bruce Burrill) Date: Tue Nov 15 14:08:25 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <227B1306-80C4-4DC7-A4A1-CAF28A6C5CBE@mindspring.com> References: <6597965.1132025513183.JavaMail.cpadmin@atik> <227B1306-80C4-4DC7-A4A1-CAF28A6C5CBE@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <7.0.0.10.2.20051115145734.021a22a0@mailbag.com> At 02:06 PM 11/15/2005, you wrote: >On Nov 14, 2005, at 8:31 PM, Richard P Hayes wrote: > >> More recently I tried hanging out with >>Unitarian Buddhists, but that was like trying to get nourishment by >>sucking on New Mexican sandstone. > >I have had a similar sensation from that list. If things don't pick >up in another week I aim to unsubscribe. It is pretty much Fluffy-bunny Buddhism, with new agers and Lotus Sutra-niks thrown in. Actually, unsubscibing seems like a good idea. >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From malcolmdean at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 12:34:00 2005 From: malcolmdean at gmail.com (Malcolm Dean) Date: Tue Nov 15 15:35:51 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Attan.com Message-ID: <417b04640511151134s1a9f2741m6f413c255f0562d2@mail.gmail.com> > > This is Ken Wheeler's site. He is good friends with Zenmar aka Ardent > Hollingworth the founder and master debater of Dark Zen. Wheeler is a > self proclaimed "Doctor of Buddhology" and also goes by the Ven > Shakya Aryanatta (self ordained). > I'd like to parse the content of http://www.attan.com a little more before we dismiss the subject. This kind of source is sometimes useful in promoting further discovery, so, for those interested, let's explore. (Others may prefer to return to politics.): For example, the author claims that the earliest books are doctrinally distinct from those that follow (mainly, I gather, in his assertions regarding "soul"). Is this distinction generally agreed or not? Where are the dividing lines? Are there good books or papers on this topic? The author provides a lengthy list of quotations regarding "soul." Is his translation correct, or are there divergent opinions? If correct, how are we to understand a set of early writings which can be interpreted as diverging from later teachings? The author offers a low opinion of the PTS dictionary. Is he correct? If not, why not? The author provides a number of books in PDF form. Some are clearly Theosophical, others appear to be reference volumes or translations. What is the quality of these works and translations? Do any have interesting stories behind them? Beside the details provided about the author in the previous post, does anyone herein know him personally, or where he lives and what he does for a living? Malcolm Dean From chanfu at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 16:45:25 2005 From: chanfu at gmail.com (Chan Fu) Date: Tue Nov 15 16:48:28 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <6597965.1132025513183.JavaMail.cpadmin@atik> References: <6597965.1132025513183.JavaMail.cpadmin@atik> Message-ID: On 11/14/05, Richard P Hayes wrote: > > Chan Fu wrote: > > >Or just laughing your ass off... > >Kenny Wheeler has been a fixture on the public buddhist ng's > >for years, > > Is this the jazz trumpeter born in Toronto? I don't know, but the ensuing (vrajrally incorrect) vision is of a Baptist with a hair dryer. http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/10/31/pastor.electrocuted.ap/ but halloween was a nice touch, it was a sort of birthday prezzie... > I used to hang out on buddhist news groups some years ago, but I > couldn't stand the weather. More recently I tried hanging out with > Unitarian Buddhists, but that was like trying to get nourishment by > sucking on New Mexican sandstone. I've had my turn there as an alternative to making smog into something edible. Unitarians are scary - I'm never sure just what they want to unite. > > though recently silent. His principle assertion > >is that buddhist scripture (properly interpreted) affirms > >the existence of "soul". > > So I gathered from the web site. I have no problem with soul talk. It > doesn't seem incompatible in the least with anything I know about > Buddhism. My only allergy is to people who think they have a monopoly > on proper interpretation of Buddhist scripture. They remind me too much > of Republicans, I guess. I have no problem with someone proposing that I have some individual essence that I don't know that I have and that my belief in their beliefs will determine whether that unknown something will be either barbecued or bored for all eternity in a place I don't know exists. Which, now that you mention it, does have some indeterminate republican essence about it... Speaking of republican essence: http://www.funpic.hu/en.picview.php?id=26274&c=14&s=dd&p=1 and some hilarious others... ps: interesting tidbits - http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/dn8317.html http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/12/opinion/12dalai.html?th&emc=th From tatelman at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 15 16:48:03 2005 From: tatelman at sympatico.ca (Joel Tatelman) Date: Tue Nov 15 16:48:30 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Attan.com In-Reply-To: <417b04640511151134s1a9f2741m6f413c255f0562d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <417b04640511151134s1a9f2741m6f413c255f0562d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It's perhaps worth recalling that C.A.F. Rhys Davids, who did so much valuable philological and translation work in Pali, published, in her later years, a book dedicated to arguing for the reality and centrality of the soul in "original" Buddhist thought. Her opinion, too, was that later monk-dominated, ecclesiastical Buddhism "reified" the anatman/anatta doctrine and made it into the "no-soul" doctrine. I believe that a scholar by the name of Bhattacarya published a rather more scholarly book on this topic; I think it was in the late 1960s. So, yeah, there's a history--not to mention the Pudgalavadins, whatever one may think of them--of people "within Buddhism" having trouble with the anatman doctrine. Cheers, Joel Tatelman. On Nov 15, 2005, at 2:34 PM, Malcolm Dean wrote: >> >> This is Ken Wheeler's site. He is good friends with Zenmar aka Ardent >> Hollingworth the founder and master debater of Dark Zen. Wheeler is a >> self proclaimed "Doctor of Buddhology" and also goes by the Ven >> Shakya Aryanatta (self ordained). >> > > I'd like to parse the content of http://www.attan.com a little more > before we dismiss the subject. This kind of source is sometimes useful > in promoting further discovery, so, for those interested, let's > explore. (Others may prefer to return to politics.): > > For example, the author claims that the earliest books are doctrinally > distinct from those that follow (mainly, I gather, in his assertions > regarding "soul"). Is this distinction generally agreed or not? Where > are the dividing lines? Are there good books or papers on this topic? > > The author provides a lengthy list of quotations regarding "soul." Is > his translation correct, or are there divergent opinions? If correct, > how are we to understand a set of early writings which can be > interpreted as diverging from later teachings? > > The author offers a low opinion of the PTS dictionary. Is he correct? > If not, why not? > > The author provides a number of books in PDF form. Some are clearly > Theosophical, others appear to be reference volumes or translations. > What is the quality of these works and translations? Do any have > interesting stories behind them? > > Beside the details provided about the author in the previous post, > does anyone herein know him personally, or where he lives and what he > does for a living? > > Malcolm Dean > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From chanfu at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 17:01:04 2005 From: chanfu at gmail.com (Chan Fu) Date: Tue Nov 15 17:08:31 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Attan.com In-Reply-To: <417b04640511151134s1a9f2741m6f413c255f0562d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <417b04640511151134s1a9f2741m6f413c255f0562d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/15/05, Malcolm Dean wrote: > > > > This is Ken Wheeler's site. He is good friends with Zenmar aka Ardent > > Hollingworth the founder and master debater of Dark Zen. Wheeler is a > > self proclaimed "Doctor of Buddhology" and also goes by the Ven > > Shakya Aryanatta (self ordained). > > > > I'd like to parse the content of http://www.attan.com a little more > before we dismiss the subject. This kind of source is sometimes useful > in promoting further discovery, so, for those interested, let's > explore. (Others may prefer to return to politics.): > > For example, the author claims that the earliest books are doctrinally > distinct from those that follow (mainly, I gather, in his assertions > regarding "soul"). Is this distinction generally agreed or not? Where > are the dividing lines? Are there good books or papers on this topic? > > The author provides a lengthy list of quotations regarding "soul." Is > his translation correct, or are there divergent opinions? If correct, > how are we to understand a set of early writings which can be > interpreted as diverging from later teachings? > > The author offers a low opinion of the PTS dictionary. Is he correct? > If not, why not? > > The author provides a number of books in PDF form. Some are clearly > Theosophical, others appear to be reference volumes or translations. > What is the quality of these works and translations? Do any have > interesting stories behind them? > > Beside the details provided about the author in the previous post, > does anyone herein know him personally, or where he lives and what he > does for a living? > > Malcolm Dean Ten direct questions (my count). The current research rate is ~US$17,299.61 per question, not counting multiples within the same question, travel and incidental expenses. Any questions? From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Tue Nov 15 23:48:24 2005 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Wong Weng Fai) Date: Tue Nov 15 23:58:46 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Attan.com In-Reply-To: <417b04640511151134s1a9f2741m6f413c255f0562d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <417b04640511151134s1a9f2741m6f413c255f0562d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, Malcolm Dean wrote: > The author provides a lengthy list of quotations regarding "soul." Is > his translation correct, or are there divergent opinions? If correct, > how are we to understand a set of early writings which can be > interpreted as diverging from later teachings? One of the quote is from the Digha Nikaya (Mahaparinibbana Sutta - pp. 253 of Maurice Walshe's "Thus Have I heard"): "Pahaaya vo gamissaami katam me saranamattano" (Walshe:) "Now I go from you Having made myself my refuge" The problematic phrase is "saranamattano" - "saranam" is "refuge" and "attan" has the dual meaning of "self" (in the more innocuous meaning of refering to oneself) and "soul" (as in the loaded word). I guess if every occurence of "attan" in the scripture is interpreted as "soul" then you will get a very different reading of the text. I feel that if the Buddha had really meant "soul", he would not just slip in a single word and leave it like that - the rest of the text do not elaborate anything in this direction of the semantics. Would someone more knowledgable in Pali mind clarifying this? W.F. Wong From brburl at mailbag.com Wed Nov 16 00:19:29 2005 From: brburl at mailbag.com (Bruce Burrill) Date: Wed Nov 16 00:28:33 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Attan.com In-Reply-To: References: <417b04640511151134s1a9f2741m6f413c255f0562d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.0.10.2.20051116011530.02616ae0@mailbag.com> "The attan is the highest refuge to which I have gone. It is for me the light, the sanctuary, that highest end, goal and destiny. It is immeasurable, matchless, that which I really am, the very treasure [which I sought]; it is like my very breath, this vital animator." - Khuddaka Nikaya, Jatakapali 1441 This is Ken Wheeler's "translation," show a text that talks about the truly true self. And here is the passage in context with an appropriate tranlation Then the king bade Punnaka to claim his prize with the following verse: "Elephants, oxen, horses, jewels and earrings, whatever gems I have in the earth. Take the best of wealth, 0 Kaccana, take it and go where you wish." Punnaka answered: "Elephants, oxen, horses, jewels and earrings, whatever gems thou hast in the earth, Vidhura the minister is the best of them all. He has been won by me, pay him down to me." [1441] "He is my minister, my refuge and help, my shelter, my fortress and my defense," replied the king. "That minister of mine is not to be weighed against wealth. That minister of mine is like unto my life." Punnaka answered: "To avoid a long contest between you and I, let us go to the sage and ask him what he wishes. Let him decide this matter between us, and allow what he determines to be the judgment of us both." This is typical of Wheeler's "translations." Wheeler takes stuff out of context and has no understand of Pali grammar. From selwyn at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 16 01:35:41 2005 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Wed Nov 16 01:48:35 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Attan.com In-Reply-To: References: <417b04640511151134s1a9f2741m6f413c255f0562d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Joel Tatelman writes: >It's perhaps worth recalling that C.A.F. Rhys Davids, who did so >much valuable philological and translation work in Pali, published, >in her later years, a book dedicated to arguing for the reality and >centrality of the soul in "original" Buddhist thought. Her opinion, >too, was that later monk-dominated, ecclesiastical Buddhism >"reified" the anatman/anatta doctrine and made it into the "no-soul" >doctrine. Views as to the quality of her work differ. I don't think she had ever visited a Buddhist country. Perhaps her later positions are more to do with her own early religious background. > I believe that a scholar by the name of Bhattacarya published a >rather more scholarly book on this topic; I think it was in the late >1960s. He is a good scholar, committed to a type of Vedantin perspective. (A brahmin, I think.) His arguments essentially depend upon the notion that relatively sophisticated, later Vedantin ideas are present in the Upanisads and known to the Buddha. Both of those assumptions are open to question. >So, yeah, there's a history--not to mention the Pudgalavadins, >whatever one may think of them--of people "within Buddhism" having >trouble with the anatman doctrine. I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. "Within Buddhism" is rather ambiguous. I don't think there is any evidence of opposition to the teaching of no-self within Buddhism before the rise of Mahaayaana and probably not before the rise of Yogaacaara. As to the Puggalavaadins, they are explicit that what they say in no way contradicts the teaching of no-self. And of course we only have relatively late materials of theirs. Lance Cousins From selwyn at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 16 01:44:30 2005 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Wed Nov 16 01:48:38 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Attan.com In-Reply-To: <417b04640511151134s1a9f2741m6f413c255f0562d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <417b04640511151134s1a9f2741m6f413c255f0562d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Malcolm Dean would like more information: >I'd like to parse the content of http://www.attan.com a little more >before we dismiss the subject. This kind of source is sometimes useful >in promoting further discovery, so, for those interested, let's >explore. (Others may prefer to return to politics.): > >For example, the author claims that the earliest books are doctrinally >distinct from those that follow (mainly, I gather, in his assertions >regarding "soul"). Is this distinction generally agreed or not? Well, yes and no. We have almost no means other than doctrinal differences to determine which texts are earlier and which later. If you assume that such a large body of literature must have been produced at different times, then you will attempt on that basis to identify layers. But there is little agreement on how to do this. What agreement there is is probably the result of having relatively few scholars working in the field. There is also no agreement as to how long the process will have taken. One could assume that the Buddha added teachings and explanations during the course of a long lifetime. One could also suppose that some material was added by his surviving pupils and their followers over the next fifty years, but that the main body of the discourses in the four Nikaayas was extant in the fourth century B.C. Others favour extremely long time-scales with the bulk of the discourses being produced in the third to first century B.C. and the collections as we have them perhaps even later. All sorts of intermediate positions are possible and exist. Since this is the methodology being used, one is bound to discover that early texts have a simpler teaching than later ones. The application of this to the teachings of anatta is that the Buddha himself might originally have taught only a simple teaching of not being attached to ideas of who or what we are. This is clearly possible but far from proven. >Where >are the dividing lines? Are there good books or papers on this topic? Yes. Just avoid most of the ones mentioned on this website :-) >The author provides a lengthy list of quotations regarding "soul." Is >his translation correct, or are there divergent opinions? On the term atta: It can mean some kind of transcendent spiritual reality. It can refer to our ordinary sense of self or ego. It can be a simple reflexive pronoun. If you conflate these usages (most of which exist in English too), you can produce something like the translations suggested. I would personally consider many of the translations given to be just plain wrong. >If correct, >how are we to understand a set of early writings which can be >interpreted as diverging from later teachings? It would be an extraordinary anticipation of certain 19th and 20th century ideas. There would be no parallel to this in the history of mankind. >The author offers a low opinion of the PTS dictionary. Is he correct? No. >If not, why not? It was a considerable achievement at the time. It could be superceded now - three quarters of a century or so later. Indeed Margaret Cone's ongoing work will do that, although she generally avoids doctrinal or philosophical issues. The website author dislikes it because Stede successfully debunks the kind of mistranslation he wants to put forward. >The author provides a number of books in PDF form. Some are clearly >Theosophical, others appear to be reference volumes or translations. >What is the quality of these works and translations? Variable, but any student who read all of these and nothing else could probably be guaranteed a virtual failure in any Buddhism course taught by me. >Do any have >interesting stories behind them? I don't know. >Beside the details provided about the author in the previous post, >does anyone herein know him personally, or where he lives and what he >does for a living? Unknown. Looking at the site, however, it seems to evidence extraordinary arrogance combined with a vituperative hatred of different views. Take for example: "The truth being that those demonic 'Buddhists' who cannot, who have not seen the Light of their inner nature which delivers both wisdom and blissful grace without equal or description, these people are morbid little demons that have forced themselves by will to become sleazy whores of superficial morality, inwardly rotten and outwardly pure." This is explicitly applied to the whole of Buddhism today i.e. to hundreds of millions of people whom the author has never met. Such a judgment is pretty stupid and very arrogant. The use of expressions like 'morbid', ,'sleazy', 'demonic', 'whores', 'rotten' and the like is simply an external expression of (probably unacknowledged) hatred. The author is clearly in desperate need of a little more 'superficial morality'. On the positive side, we may say that there is much that needs to be understood about 'no self' in its classical form. Two points seem important: 1. It is primarily a meditative technique. As such, you have to do it to understand it. 2. There is no teaching of no self. The point is that there is no unchanging or permanent self. Rather there is a process. Viewing this either in terms of continuing permanence or as some kind of annihilation completely misses the point. Rather the idea is not to rely on anything within or without. Lance Cousins From ellwbj at nus.edu.sg Wed Nov 16 02:52:49 2005 From: ellwbj at nus.edu.sg (John Whalen-Bridge) Date: Wed Nov 16 02:58:35 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Attan.com Message-ID: I think it's in "Inner Revolution: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Real Happiness" that Robert Thurman argues for a Buddhist conception of the soul. I've not got it in front of me, but my recollection is that, according to INNER REVOLUTION, suicides who believe themselves to be escaping bad consequences of their acts on the grounds of there being "no self" are in for an unpleasant surprise--a position Thurman supports with reference to Tibetan sources. JWB Message: 5 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:48:03 -0500 From: Joel Tatelman To: Buddhist discussion forum >> >valuable philological and translation work in Pali, published, in her >later years, a book dedicated to arguing for the reality and centrality >of the soul in "original" Buddhist thought. Her opinion, too, was that >later monk-dominated, ecclesiastical Buddhism "reified" the >anatman/anatta doctrine and made it into the "no-soul" doctrine. I >believe that a scholar by the name of Bhattacarya published a rather >more scholarly book on this topic; I think it was in the late 1960s. >So, yeah, there's a history--not to mention the Pudgalavadins, whatever >one may think of them--of people "within Buddhism" having trouble with >the anatman doctrine. Cheers, Joel Tatelman. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051116/75c9c50f/attachment.html From michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com Wed Nov 16 04:58:14 2005 From: michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com (Michael J. Wilson) Date: Wed Nov 16 04:58:38 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Christian meditation and eastern symbolism In-Reply-To: <200511151900.jAFJ0JNx016216@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <20051116115814.67795.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> When I read this "whole imagery of the Trinity" in meditation it reminded me of three things. In Nepal on a trek in the Himalaya, not far out from Kathmandu, I stayed overnight in a guest house. When I looked at the white painted wall of the one of the rooms outside, I saw what looked like a Tibetan "Wheel of Life" tangka painted. Not too unusual as most Sherpas had a Tibetan form of buddhist religion. On closer inspection I realized it was a "Christian Wheel of Life" with a distinctly chrisitan symbology, that Holy Trinity perhaps being one of them:. the life of Christ clearer being depicted in the storytelling. Then I remembered that there is a small, totally non-intrusive "ashram", but chrisitan religious centre, in Sarnath (major buddhist pilgrimage place near Varanasi where Shakyamuni Buddha first turned the wheel of Dharma. You would never see this place from the street but peering in through the gate you can see a statue of Jesus, in our common western concepti! on of him, sitting in a lotus form of meditation. I also recall that the Swiss christian hermit and mystic Nicholas of Cusa used to practice a "medallion" meditation, which involved christian symbolism. I can't remember it now but the medallions represented "stages of the cross". Medallions are circles though, aren't they, or wheels of life? Michael J. Wilson You said: It shows that Christianity or more precisely Catholicism has not changed a bit, but uses the same negative dogmatic attitude against any form of prayer or meditation that doesn't contain the whole imagery of the Trinity as in the past against its own more mystically enclined currents. quote: 12. With the present diffusion of eastern methods of meditation in the Christian world and in ecclesial communities, we find ourselves faced with a pointed renewal of an attempt, which is not free from dangers and errors, "to fuse Christian meditation with that which is non-Christian." Proposals in this direction are numerous and radical to a greater or lesser extent. Some use eastern methods solely as a psycho-physical preparation for a truly Christian contemplation; others go further and, using different techniques, try to generate spiritual experiences similar to those described in the writings of certain Catholic mystics.(13) Still others do not hesitate to place that absolute without image or concepts, which is proper to Buddhist theory, (14) on the same level as the majesty of God revealed in Christ, which towers above finite reality. To this end, they make use of a "negative theology," which transcends every affirmation seeking to express what God is, and denies that the things of this world can offer traces of the infinity of God. Thus they propose abandoning not only meditation on the salvific works accomplished in history by the God of the Old and New Covenant, but also the very idea of the One and Triune God, who is Love, in favor of an immersion "in the indeterminate abyss of the divinity."(15) These and similar proposals to harmonize Christian meditation with eastern techniques need to have their contents and methods ever subjected to a thorough-going examination so as to avoid the danger of falling into syncretism. --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051116/82dc8699/attachment.htm From christoph.emmrich at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Wed Nov 16 03:48:24 2005 From: christoph.emmrich at urz.uni-heidelberg.de (christoph.emmrich@urz.uni-heidelberg.de) Date: Wed Nov 16 06:34:37 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Summer School in Spoken Sanskrit 2006 Message-ID: <1132138104.437b0e7814ffb@wwwmail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Summer School in Spoken Sanskrit 2006 The Department of Classical Indology at the South Asia Institute Heidelberg/Germany announces the Summer School in Spoken Sanskrit from 01.08.- 26.08.06 and the Advanced Summer School in Spoken Sanskrit from 04.09.- 22.09.06, which are organized here in Heidelberg for the 7th time. Both courses will be held under the guidance of Dr. Sadanada Das, a Sanskrit native speaker from Benares and an experienced Sanskrit teacher. The participants will learn to listen carefully, to pronounce accurately and to slowly speak and recite this beautiful language. Prerequisites: elementary Sanskrit and English Organizer: Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels Venue: South Asia Institute, Heidelberg/ Germany Deadlines: application May 15, 2006, payment June 30, 2006 Fee: Euro 300,- (incl. teaching materials) Accommodation: hostel on request, approx. Euro 200,- Applications by email: kathleen.goegge@urz.uni-heidelberg.de Applications by mail: ?Sanskrit Summer School?, The Secretariat Dept. of Classical Indology South Asia Institute Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 69120 Heidelberg For further questions please do not hesitate to contact me. Yours sincerely, Kathleen Goegge Department of Classical Indology Head: Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 D-69120 Heidelberg Germany Tel: +49(0)6221-54 49 07 Fax: +49(0)6221-54 63 38 e-mail: kathleen.goegge@urz.uni-heidelberg.de ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Application form - Summer School in Spoken Sanskrit - Advanced Summer School in Spoken Sanskrit (please tick) Name (last, first) Date of Birth Sex Nationality Residential Address Telephone / Fax (including National Code) Email Profession University Degree / Subjects Supervisor Years of Sanskrit Texts read Previous courses in spoken Sanskrit (place, date, teacher, content) Other Languages (modern and classical) Accommodation required From joy.vriens at nerim.net Wed Nov 16 07:21:01 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Wed Nov 16 07:28:39 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Christian meditation and eastern symbolism In-Reply-To: <20051116115814.67795.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051116115814.67795.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <437B404D.1090300@nerim.net> Hi Michael > When I read this "whole imagery of the Trinity" in meditation it > reminded me of three things. IMO there is nothing wrong with meditations using active imagination, but there is nothing wrong either with meditational or other experiences in which that/any imagery "is lacking". But that is clearly not the opinion of the Catholic church. And if their is a "syncretism" between experiences produced through various religious techniques, I don't see why that would be a "danger to avoid". What type of danger would that be? Joy From bclough at aucegypt.edu Wed Nov 16 12:06:02 2005 From: bclough at aucegypt.edu (bclough) Date: Wed Nov 16 12:08:44 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Attan.com Message-ID: Joel Tatelman wrote: >I believe that a scholar by the name of Bhattacarya published a rather > more scholarly book on this topic; I think it was in the late 1960s. Although I am not, in the end, persuaded by his arguments, perhaps the most plausible scholarly arguments for "Self" not being denied in early Buddhism are found in: Perez-Ramon, Joacquin. Self and Non-Self in Early Buddhism. The Hague: Mouton, 1980. Brad bclough@aucegypt.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051116/7d7dd8ca/attachment.html From rhayes at unm.edu Wed Nov 16 12:08:48 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed Nov 16 12:18:45 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <6597965.1132025513183.JavaMail.cpadmin@atik> Message-ID: <1132168128.5793.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-11-15 at 18:45 -0500, Chan Fu wrote: > Unitarians are scary - I'm never sure just what they want to unite As I'm sure you are aware, the original unitarians were so called because they rejected the doctrine of the trinity. The first unitarians were scary only to trinitarians. There are still some unitarian movements that arrive at the same position as the first unitarians that haunted the north of Italy and the mountains of Transylvania some five hundred years ago. The Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, are unitarians. Like the original unitarians, they arrive at their position through biblical literalism. Their "thinking" (if one can call it that) is that there is no biblical support for the doctrine of the trinity. Moreover, the Bible does say that one should not place anyone on an equal footing with God, from which it follows that seeing Christ as a person of God is idolatry. So their claim is that the doctrine of the trinity is the work of the later church, in much the same way Ken Wheeler (along with some former subscribers to buddha-l) claim that the doctrine that there is no self is the work of the later Buddhist community. The idea that a religious community overturns the highest insights of its founders is nothing new. It seems to be one of the standard positions that somebody or other eventually takes up in every organized religion. In the 19th century, quite a number of Presbyterians, Baptists and Congregationalists were unitarians. While Presbyterians, Baptists and Congregationalists are all capable of being scary, I'm not sure it's their adherence to unitarian principles that makes them so. > I have no problem with someone proposing that I have some > individual essence that I don't know that I have and that my > belief in their beliefs will determine whether that unknown > something will be either barbecued or bored for all eternity > in a place I don't know exists. My main problem with unitarians is that they believe in the complete unity of just one god, which is one too many gods for my tastes. On the other hand, if there were a god anything at all like worthy of worship, she would be one who confers salvation upon absolutely everyone, without exception. I am quite drawn to some of the doctrines of Hosea Ballou and other Universalists, who denied that anyone goes to hell or purgatory. If God has the power to save souls, Ballou argued, and if God extends grace to anyone at all, then it only stands to reason that a just and powerful God necessarily extend grace to everyone. Ballou regarded the doctrine of eternal damnation the most irrational and tragic theological doctrine ever to be invented by deluded human beings. Unfortunately, most American Christians were so addicted to the idea that people who spend sixty years being sinful now and then must spend everlasting time paying for their handful of sins in hell that they rejected the Universalists and even persecuted them. Alas, the beleaguered Universalists were eventually driven to form a union with those of their former enemies who hated them the least, namely, the Unitarians (most of whom were also unitarians). Unitarian-Universalists often operate under the delusion that they have a great deal in common with Buddhists. But that is mostly because it turns out they know almost nothing about Buddhism and so can protect their warm and fuzzy sense camaraderie under the accommodating cloak of ignorance. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed Nov 16 13:11:10 2005 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed Nov 16 13:18:43 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Christian meditation and eastern symbolism In-Reply-To: <20051116115814.67795.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051116115814.67795.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <437B925E.6090401@xs4all.nl> Michael J. Wilson schreef: > When I read this "whole imagery of the Trinity" in meditation it > reminded me of three things. In Nepal on a trek in the Himalaya, not > far out from Kathmandu, I stayed overnight in a guest house. When I > looked at the white painted wall of the one of the rooms outside, I > saw what looked like a Tibetan "Wheel of Life" tangka painted. Not too > unusual as most Sherpas had a Tibetan form of buddhist religion. On > closer inspection I realized it was a "Christian Wheel of Life" with a > distinctly chrisitan symbology, that Holy Trinity perhaps being one of > them:. the life of Christ clearer being depicted in the > storytelling. Then I remembered that there is a small, totally > non-intrusive "ashram", but chrisitan religious centre, in Sarnath > (major buddhist pilgrimage place near Varanasi where Shakyamuni Buddha > first turned the wheel of Dharma. You would never see this place from > the street but peering in through the gate yo! u can see a statue of > Jesus, in our common western conception of him, sitting in a lotus > form of meditation. I also recall that the Swiss christian hermit and > mystic Nicholas of Cusa used to practice a "medallion" meditation, > which involved christian symbolism. I can't remember it now but the > medallions represented "stages of the cross". Medallions are circles > though, aren't they, or wheels of life? > > Michael J. Wilson > > > > You said: > > It shows that Christianity or more precisely Catholicism has not changed > a bit, but uses the same negative dogmatic attitude against any form of > prayer or meditation that doesn't contain the whole imagery of the > Trinity as in the past against its own more mystically enclined currents. > > quote: > > 12. With the present diffusion of eastern methods of meditation in the > Christian world and in ecclesial communities,! we find ourselves faced > with a pointed renewal of an attempt, which is not free from dangers and > errors, "to fuse Christian meditation with that which is non-Christian." > Proposals in this direction are numerous and radical to a greater or > lesser extent. Some use eastern methods solely as a psycho-physical > preparation for a truly Christian contemplation; others go further and, > using different techniques, try to generate spiritual experiences > similar to those described in the writings of certain Catholic > mystics.(13) Still others do not hesitate to place that absolute without > image or concepts, which is proper to Buddhist theory, (14) on the same > level as the majesty of God revealed in Christ, which towers above > finite reality. To this end, they make use of a "negative theology," > which transcends every affirmation seeking to express what God is, and > denies that the things of this world can offer traces of the infinity of > God. Th! us they propose abandoning not only meditation on the salvific > works accomplished in history by the God of the Old and New Covenant, > but also the very idea of the One and Triune God, who is Love, in favor > of an immersion "in the indeterminate abyss of the divinity."(15) These > and similar proposals to harmonize Christian meditation with eastern > techniques need to have their contents and methods ever subjected to a > thorough-going examination so as to avoid the danger of falling into > syncretism. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > The first missionaries to enter in Tibet thought there had been missionaries before them which had taught the Tibetans the Catholic rituals. They could not imagine that the Tibetans had gotten their rituals otherwise. The anthropologist Levi Strauss however once devoted a large part of his 'Anthropologie Structurale' to reject the idea that when two ideas or symbols are alike, one of them has to be a transformation of the other. Similar ideas arise in different places all the time. Since it's not very complicated to attach a lot of meanings to the number three one can expect to find it in different cultures. Moreover the number three is very importnat in Kashmiri Shaiva and hence in certain forms of Buddhist Tantrism. By the way the number three is not important in original Christian theology, it has been borrowed from Plato (the Idea of the Good, the Logos and the Demiurg). -- Regards Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms From at43naug at tds.net Wed Nov 16 16:05:14 2005 From: at43naug at tds.net (at43naug@tds.net) Date: Wed Nov 16 17:18:58 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Attan.com Message-ID: <20051116230514.CADM2379.outaamta01.mail.tds.net@smtp.tds.net> Seconding Joel Tatelman's comments, it has always struck me as comforting somehow that Pudgalavadins are still considered to be Buddhists. It proves that Buddhism is different from Christianity, in that "to be a Buddhist" apparently has little to do with what one believes. And I think, along with Richard, that anyone who claims to have some exclusive definition of Buddhism, be it this Wheeler fellow or Nichiren, thereby does a considerable disservice to the history of the Buddhist tradition. The only thing Buddhists seemed to be interested in suppressing was animal sacrifice, pretty much anything else was okay. That's my two cents for today. All the best, Alex Naughton From michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com Wed Nov 16 20:21:31 2005 From: michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com (Michael J. Wilson) Date: Wed Nov 16 20:28:51 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Christian meditation and eastern symbolism In-Reply-To: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <20051117032132.36877.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I think that "danger to avoid" would be similiar to the experience told by a Tibetan teacher of the deeply meditating student (probably himself on the Lam Rim stages of the path) who would suddenly out of samadhi bring a hand out and grab onto their arm over the sleeve of their robe just to see if their body was still there! It is the fear of losing that notion of our sense of self to which we cling out of ignorance of experiencing the state of non-being: mahamudra. Merci Michael buddha-l-request@mailman.swcp.com wrote: Send buddha-l mailing list submissions to buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to buddha-l-request@mailman.swcp.com You can reach the person managing the list at buddha-l-owner@mailman.swcp.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of buddha-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Christian meditation and eastern symbolism (Joy Vriens) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:21:01 +0100 From: Joy Vriens Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Christian meditation and eastern symbolism To: Buddhist discussion forum Message-ID: <437B404D.1090300@nerim.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi Michael > When I read this "whole imagery of the Trinity" in meditation it > reminded me of three things. IMO there is nothing wrong with meditations using active imagination, but there is nothing wrong either with meditational or other experiences in which that/any imagery "is lacking". But that is clearly not the opinion of the Catholic church. And if their is a "syncretism" between experiences produced through various religious techniques, I don't see why that would be a "danger to avoid". What type of danger would that be? Joy ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ buddha-l mailing list buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l End of buddha-l Digest, Vol 9, Issue 20 *************************************** --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051116/dd346338/attachment.html From brburl at mailbag.com Thu Nov 17 00:06:42 2005 From: brburl at mailbag.com (Bruce Burrill) Date: Thu Nov 17 00:08:52 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha In-Reply-To: <20051117032132.36877.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com> <20051117032132.36877.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com> I just read something by Namdrol (Malcolm Smith), a former Buddha-l-oid: >There is every reason to beleive that the Buddha spoke Sanskrit, and was educated in Sanskrit. And, of course, taught in Sanskrit.... Thoughts on this? From brburl at mailbag.com Thu Nov 17 00:14:59 2005 From: brburl at mailbag.com (Bruce Burrill) Date: Thu Nov 17 00:18:56 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] scary stuff from "Buddhists" In-Reply-To: <1132168128.5793.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <6597965.1132025513183.JavaMail.cpadmin@atik> <1132168128.5793.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <7.0.0.10.2.20051117011321.050b6e00@mailbag.com> At 01:08 PM 11/16/2005, you wrote: >On Tue, 2005-11-15 at 18:45 -0500, Chan Fu wrote: > > > Unitarians are scary Yes, they are; this was just posted in the uub-f list: The Discourse on Right View, The Sammaditthi Sutta and its Commentary Translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu ?anamoli Edited and Revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi The Wheel Publication No. 377/379 ISBN 955-24-0079-1 found here: http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel377.html What really struck me is the poor understanding and therefore poor translation given to Consciousness: Several years ago I published on this issue in my website www.dyad.org - the true nature of consciousness..But let us not get ahead of our sparse Pali translation, which gives us the following: 57. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands consciousness, the origin of consciousness, the cessation of consciousness, and the way leading to the cessation of consciousness, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma. 58. "And what is consciousness, what is the origin of consciousness, what is the cessation of consciousness, what is the way leading to the cessation of consciousness? There are these six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness. With the arising of formations there is the arising of consciousness. With the cessation of formations there is the cessation of consciousness. The way leading to the cessation of consciousness is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration. 59. "When a noble disciple has thus understood consciousness, the origin of consciousness, the cessation of consciousness, and the way leading to the cessation of consciousness... he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma." This to me, is a very sparse representation in English of what is being said here. To make this issue clear, using western language, we need to separate the two words attention and consciousness. People often treat them as interchangeable words, they are not. Consciousness is an extra layer upon attention. Attention can exist without consciousness, as living in the moment can occur without building a historical reference for later retrieval. Consciousness allows indexing and retrieval of events. This extra layer is habitual and unconscious in most people. It appears 'natural' to be conscious, but it requires extra effort, and it diverts attention away from the here and now. This extra layer is a triangulation with another viewpoint. A strong parent or strong teacher often provides this 'formation' which seems to act to 'magnify' attention. Unfortunately this 'magnification' is an illusion, as extra baggage, this formation, gives only the appearance of understanding. At it's heart, this formation is a contamination of the present moment. It 'clicks-in' to substitute for understanding. It prevents deep listening and results in the common 'I understand' as an oppositional state. In extreme example, it is the life of a reactionary person. I know of what I speak, because I spent hundreds of hours meditating and many days in dyads. These 'formations' were found inside me, standing in and acting as me. Once I found them, in me, I could 'translate the Pali' and see what was spoken of. It is not possible to go the other way. You don't 'read' about it and see it so. That would bypass the richness of living and the meaning of life. Only through direct experience can the Dharma be made real. If people are not willing to do the work of getting to the bottom of their inner illusions, they will wander forever in Samsara. Like squirrels, collecting nuts, but not eating them in understanding, we are too full of outside to be inside. May we all remember, to pay attention inside, to allow 'translation' of the outside. Otherwise we might miss the harmony and peace that is everywhere. From joy.vriens at nerim.net Thu Nov 17 03:17:39 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Thu Nov 17 03:18:57 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1132168128.5793.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <6597965.1132025513183.JavaMail.cpadmin@atik> <1132168128.5793.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <437C58C3.6090808@nerim.net> Richard P. Hayes wrote: > My main problem with unitarians is that they believe in the complete > unity of just one god, which is one too many gods for my tastes. On the > other hand, if there were a god anything at all like worthy of worship, > she would be one who confers salvation upon absolutely everyone, without > exception. Have you tried tath?gatagarbha? ;-) From joy.vriens at nerim.net Thu Nov 17 03:29:33 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Thu Nov 17 03:38:56 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Christian meditation and eastern symbolism In-Reply-To: <20051117032132.36877.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051117032132.36877.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <437C5B8D.9070809@nerim.net> Michael J. Wilson wrote: > I think that "danger to avoid" would be similiar to the experience told > by a Tibetan teacher of the deeply meditating student (probably himself > on the Lam Rim stages of the path) who would suddenly out of samadhi > bring a hand out and grab onto their arm over the sleeve of their robe > just to see if their body was still there! It is the fear of losing > that notion of our sense of self to which we cling out of ignorance of > experiencing the state of non-being: mahamudra. In fact the "danger to avoid" I refered to was the "danger of falling into syncretism" (These and similar proposals to harmonize Christian meditation with eastern techniques need to have their contents and methods ever subjected to a thorough-going examination so as to avoid the danger of falling into syncretism.). Switching states (passivity => activity) often requires readjustment which can come with temporal loss of equilibrium. I don't know whether this can imply danger or whether it is dangerous. From Nik.Macleod at proquest.co.uk Thu Nov 17 03:38:59 2005 From: Nik.Macleod at proquest.co.uk (Macleod, Nik) Date: Thu Nov 17 03:48:54 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Attan.com Message-ID: <81F2CB877E563643BDAEF118EBED0CCA034D2794@INTLEXCHANGE.pqilintl.net> >Sent: 16 November 2005 19:06 >To: buddha-l >Subject: Re: Attan.com Brad Clough wrote: >Although I am not, in the end, persuaded by his arguments, >perhaps the most plausible scholarly arguments for "Self" >not being denied in early Buddhism are found in: >Perez-Ramon, Joacquin. Self and Non-Self in Early Buddhism. >The Hague: Mouton, 1980. I'm not so sure about the plausiblity of this work. If it is to be read at all, I would suggest also consulting the extended critical review by Steven Collins: Title: Self and Non-Self in Early Buddhism (Review article) Author: Collins, Steven Journal Section(s): Review articles Journal: Numen Issue: 29:2 (1982:Dec.) p.250 Number of Pages: 22 Best regards Nik Macleod From bclough at aucegypt.edu Thu Nov 17 09:39:40 2005 From: bclough at aucegypt.edu (bclough) Date: Thu Nov 17 09:49:00 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lance's remarks on Attan.com Message-ID: Malcolm Dean: >Where are the dividing lines? Are there good books or papers on this topic? Lance Cousins: > Yes. Just avoid most of the ones mentioned on this website :-) Dear Lance, Could we impose on you to list here some of the works you regard as most useful on this topic? Best Wishes, Brad bclough@aucegypt.edu From s-sarbacker at northwestern.edu Thu Nov 17 12:33:07 2005 From: s-sarbacker at northwestern.edu (Stuart Ray Sarbacker) Date: Thu Nov 17 12:39:02 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mara/Yama Message-ID: Friends, Apologies for the cross-listing if you have seen this query already. I am currently advising a student that is working on issues related to the origins and transformations of Mara in Indian Buddhism and its descendents. He is particularly interested in the continuities and discontinuities between Mara in Pali and Sanskrit literature across sectarian boundaries, and the precedents of Mara in Vedic literature and the personification and role of death in tantrism, especially with respect to the figure of Yama. I am pushing an examination of Vedic and Upanisadic materials (such as the Katha Up.) and he has already begun examining Nikaya literature, the Buddhacarita, and Praj?aparamita literature. Among secondary sources, he has already looked at Trevor Ling's Buddhism and the Mythology of Evil, Ernst Windisch's Mara und Buddha, Wendy Doniger's Origins of Evil in Hindu Mythology and a broad range of critical and sociological literature on evil and its symbolism. I would be extremely grateful for suggestions with respect to both primary and secondary materials relevant to examining the transformations of Mara across the spectrum of Indian Buddhism, and also with respect to the continuity and discontinuity between the personification of death in Hinduism and Buddhism. Many Thanks, -- Dr. Stuart Sarbacker Lecturer in Religion Director of Undergraduate Studies Department of Religion Northwestern University http://www.religion.northwestern.edu/faculty/sarbacker.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051117/62d8eecd/attachment.html From chanfu at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 15:57:27 2005 From: chanfu at gmail.com (Chan Fu) Date: Thu Nov 17 15:59:04 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <437C58C3.6090808@nerim.net> References: <6597965.1132025513183.JavaMail.cpadmin@atik> <1132168128.5793.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <437C58C3.6090808@nerim.net> Message-ID: On 11/17/05, Joy Vriens wrote: > Richard P. Hayes wrote: > > > My main problem with unitarians is that they believe in the complete > > unity of just one god, which is one too many gods for my tastes. On the > > other hand, if there were a god anything at all like worthy of worship, > > she would be one who confers salvation upon absolutely everyone, without > > exception. > > Have you tried tath?gatagarbha? ;-) Ummm...that's like toast, right? Have I been thinking "utilitarians" all along? Well, it's one of those ubiquitous supermarket commodities. Branding seems to be the most important aspic. But now, magic, that's a whole 'nother story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4726547.stm Perhaps Kenny mistranslated and the "soul" is the magician, rather than the charioteer. :-) No, wait! Make that the "wife" (same difference). I've often wondered how these spinach pizzas appear so mysteriously in the freezer, not to mention the oatmeal cookies in the pantry... Anyway, her claims that I'm unconscious are as unfounded as mine that tath?gatagarbha isn't something you can actually be conscious of, and if it's not either in the freezer or the pantry, then it isn't anywhere at all and I'm just another street magician. From michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com Thu Nov 17 20:17:47 2005 From: michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com (Michael J. Wilson) Date: Thu Nov 17 20:19:13 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Christian meditation and eastern symbolism In-Reply-To: <200511171901.jAHJ0q9o031592@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <20051118031747.52428.qmail@web34110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Said Joy: In fact the "danger to avoid" I refered to was the "danger of falling into syncretism" (These and similar proposals to harmonize Christian meditation with eastern techniques need to have their contents and methods ever subjected to a thorough-going examination so as to avoid the danger of falling into syncretism.). Says I: I have no argument with syncretism so I guess I would argue with the new pontiff. I have nothing to defend. Once having been a student of anthropology and religion I studied religions paradoxically to become a better aetheist and a better devotee. Religions are all different variations of the same quest - there is no denying a mystical inner force in the universe - unbroken wholeness. We glean as much in dim light of our silent prayer - we were breathing. all the best michael --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051117/8edb7079/attachment.html From bcarral at kungzhi.org Thu Nov 17 21:49:18 2005 From: bcarral at kungzhi.org (Benito Carral) Date: Thu Nov 17 21:59:09 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Christian meditation and eastern symbolism In-Reply-To: <20051118031747.52428.qmail@web34110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200511171901.jAHJ0q9o031592@ns1.swcp.com> <20051118031747.52428.qmail@web34110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5710043732.20051118054918@kungzhi.org> On Friday, November 18, 2005, Michael J. Wilson wrote: > Religions are all?different variations of the same > quest -?there is?no denying a mystical inner force in > the universe - unbroken wholeness. That's a quite interesting statement for me. I think that it's necessary to know what you think a religion is in order to really understand it. Could you explain me (us) what is your definition of "religion"? Best wishes, Beni From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Nov 18 08:53:10 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Fri Nov 18 09:09:20 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <437C58C3.6090808@nerim.net> References: <6597965.1132025513183.JavaMail.cpadmin@atik> <1132168128.5793.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <437C58C3.6090808@nerim.net> Message-ID: <1132329190.4723.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 11:17 +0100, Joy Vriens wrote: > Have you tried tath?gatagarbha? ;-) The only time I tried it, it was lightly broiled and served with asparagus sprigs. Not bad, but a little too heavy for my refined palate. -- Richard From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Nov 18 08:29:38 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Fri Nov 18 09:09:25 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com> References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com> <20051117032132.36877.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com> Message-ID: <1132327778.4539.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 01:06 -0600, Bruce Burrill wrote: > I just read something by Namdrol (Malcolm Smith), a former Buddha-l-oid: > > >There is every reason to beleive that the Buddha spoke Sanskrit, > and was educated in Sanskrit. > > And, of course, taught in Sanskrit.... > > Thoughts on this? There is no reason to believe he knew Sanskrit. Now if you can find someone foolish enough to say there is some reason to believe the Buddha knew Sanskrit, you'd have a middle path between Malcolm's "every reason" and my "no reason." -- Richard From joy.vriens at nerim.net Fri Nov 18 09:33:57 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri Nov 18 09:39:20 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Christian meditation and eastern symbolism In-Reply-To: <20051118031747.52428.qmail@web34110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051118031747.52428.qmail@web34110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <437E0275.7080100@nerim.net> Michael J. wrote: > I have no argument with syncretism so I guess I would argue with the > new pontiff. I have nothing to defend. Once having been a student > of anthropology and religion I studied religions paradoxically to > become a better aetheist and a better devotee. Religions are > all different variations of the same quest Man's need to associate around a set of ideas and to create metafamilies? > - there is no denying a > mystical inner force in the universe - unbroken wholeness. We glean > as much in dim light ! of our silent prayer - we were breathing. I don't know about a (unique, is that what you were thinking of?) inner force in the universe, possible, but I consider silence as a mystical inner force in myself. Joy From joy.vriens at nerim.net Fri Nov 18 09:43:38 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri Nov 18 09:49:18 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism In-Reply-To: References: <6597965.1132025513183.JavaMail.cpadmin@atik> <1132168128.5793.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <437C58C3.6090808@nerim.net> Message-ID: <437E04BA.202@nerim.net> Chan Fu wrote: > Anyway, her claims that I'm unconscious are > as unfounded as mine that tath?gatagarbha > isn't something you can actually be conscious > of, and if it's not either in the freezer or the pantry, > then it isn't anywhere at all and I'm just another > street magician. Aren't we all? "Who can live without it, I ask in all honesty What would life be? Without a song or a dance what are we? So I say thank you for the magic For giving it to me" (Inspired by Abba) From jehms at xs4all.nl Fri Nov 18 09:59:32 2005 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri Nov 18 10:09:18 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Christian meditation and eastern symbolism In-Reply-To: <437E0275.7080100@nerim.net> References: <20051118031747.52428.qmail@web34110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <437E0275.7080100@nerim.net> Message-ID: <437E0874.1040603@xs4all.nl> Joy Vriens schreef: > Michael J. wrote: > >> I have no argument with syncretism so I guess I would argue with the >> new pontiff. I have nothing to defend. Once having been a student >> of anthropology and religion I studied religions paradoxically to >> become a better aetheist and a better devotee. Religions are >> all different variations of the same quest > > > Man's need to associate around a set of ideas and to create metafamilies? > >> - there is no denying a >> mystical inner force in the universe - unbroken wholeness. We glean >> as much in dim light ! of our silent prayer - we were breathing. > > > I don't know about a (unique, is that what you were thinking of?) > inner force in the universe, possible, but I consider silence as a > mystical inner force in myself. > > Joy > You bunch of perverted theosophists! :-) -- Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms From joy.vriens at nerim.net Fri Nov 18 10:48:45 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri Nov 18 10:49:20 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <1132329190.4723.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <6597965.1132025513183.JavaMail.cpadmin@atik> <1132168128.5793.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <437C58C3.6090808@nerim.net> <1132329190.4723.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <437E13FD.9020602@nerim.net> Richard P. Hayes wrote: >>Have you tried tath?gatagarbha? ;-) > The only time I tried it, it was lightly broiled and served with > asparagus sprigs. Not bad, but a little too heavy for my refined > palate. But it does fill one (and everything else) up nicely, unlike the more classical Buddhist cuisine that leaves one empty. From curt at cola.iges.org Fri Nov 18 11:01:47 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Fri Nov 18 11:09:19 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <437E13FD.9020602@nerim.net> References: <6597965.1132025513183.JavaMail.cpadmin@atik> <1132168128.5793.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <437C58C3.6090808@nerim.net> <1132329190.4723.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <437E13FD.9020602@nerim.net> Message-ID: <437E170B.5050208@cola.iges.org> Yeah - but two hours later you're hungry again. I think you can get "tathaagatagarbha flavored" tofu at some Asian markets. It kind of tastes like chicken. - Curt Joy Vriens wrote: > Richard P. Hayes wrote: > >>> Have you tried tath?gatagarbha? ;-) >> > >> The only time I tried it, it was lightly broiled and served with >> asparagus sprigs. Not bad, but a little too heavy for my refined >> palate. > > > But it does fill one (and everything else) up nicely, unlike the more > classical Buddhist cuisine that leaves one empty. > > > From james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu Fri Nov 18 10:58:00 2005 From: james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu (Blumenthal, James) Date: Fri Nov 18 11:09:23 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com><20051117032132.36877.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com><7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com> <1132327778.4539.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 01:06 -0600, Bruce Burrill wrote: > I just read something by Namdrol (Malcolm Smith), a former Buddha-l-oid: > > >There is every reason to beleive that the Buddha spoke Sanskrit, > and was educated in Sanskrit. > > And, of course, taught in Sanskrit.... > > Thoughts on this? There is no reason to believe he knew Sanskrit. Now if you can find someone foolish enough to say there is some reason to believe the Buddha knew Sanskrit, you'd have a middle path between Malcolm's "every reason" and my "no reason." -- Richard I think it would be more accurate to say there is every reason to believe the Buddha did NOT teach in Sanskrit. Jim Blumenthal James Blumenthal Dept. of Philosophy Oregon State University 102-A Hovland Hall Corvallis, OR 97331-3902 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051118/156a88f2/attachment.htm From rhayes at unm.edu Fri Nov 18 11:33:51 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Fri Nov 18 11:39:20 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha In-Reply-To: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com> <20051117032132.36877.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com> <1132327778.4539.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> Message-ID: <1132338831.6240.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-11-18 at 09:58 -0800, Blumenthal, James wrote: > I think it would be more accurate to say there is every reason to > believe the Buddha did NOT teach in Sanskrit. In this, as in most things having to do with the history of Buddhism, I suffer from an appalling ignorance. Could you (or someone else) quickly outline what the state of the evidence on this topic is? -- Richard Hayes _____ "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul." -- Mark Twain From bclough at aucegypt.edu Fri Nov 18 12:11:31 2005 From: bclough at aucegypt.edu (bclough) Date: Fri Nov 18 12:19:22 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lance's Remarks on Attan.com Message-ID: Malcolm Dean: >Where are the dividing lines? Are there good books or papers on this topic? Lance Cousins: > Yes. Just avoid most of the ones mentioned on this website :-) Dear Lance, Could we impose on you to list here some of the works you regard as most useful on this topic? Best Wishes, Brad bclough@aucegypt.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051118/98390448/attachment.htm From joy.vriens at nerim.net Fri Nov 18 12:40:33 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri Nov 18 12:49:20 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha In-Reply-To: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com><20051117032132.36877.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com><7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com> <1132327778.4539.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> Message-ID: <437E2E31.2020409@nerim.net> Blumenthal, James wrote: > There is no reason to believe he knew Sanskrit. Then who did all the plagiarizing? From joy.vriens at nerim.net Fri Nov 18 12:39:37 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Fri Nov 18 12:49:24 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Critiques of Buddhism In-Reply-To: <437E170B.5050208@cola.iges.org> References: <6597965.1132025513183.JavaMail.cpadmin@atik> <1132168128.5793.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <437C58C3.6090808@nerim.net> <1132329190.4723.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <437E13FD.9020602@nerim.net> <437E170B.5050208@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <437E2DF9.8010000@nerim.net> curt wrote: > Yeah - but two hours later you're hungry again. Not, if it is permeated with dharmakaaya. > I think you can get > "tathaagatagarbha flavored" tofu at some Asian markets. It kind of > tastes like chicken. Probably a cheap imitation. The authentic one tastes like the ocean. From selwyn at ntlworld.com Fri Nov 18 12:40:30 2005 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Fri Nov 18 12:49:30 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha In-Reply-To: <1132338831.6240.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com> <20051117032132.36877.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com> <1132327778.4539.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <1132338831.6240.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: An interesting challenge: 1. We do not know the date of the Buddha. I personally think it most probable that he died around 400 B.C. But the evidence is not conclusive; so he may have lived earlier or later. 2. We do not know at what date vernacular Sanskrit was replaced by an early vernacular form of Middle Indian. 3. In any case there is no reason to suppose that transition took place at the same time in all parts of the previously Sanskrit-speaking area. So it is not possible to know whether or not the Buddha was a native speaker of Sanskrit. He could also have learned it as a language of culture. We do not know whether that was the practice in the royal or aristocratic families of Eastern India during his lifetime. Written Sanskrit is not used by Buddhists in any known source that can be dated before the second century A.D. Forms of Middle Indian were certainly used for writing by Buddhists between the third century B.C. and the first century. So we must at present assume that any later Sanskrit texts which originate as written works from a period much before the second century A.D. will have been translated (or perhaps rather transliterated) from an earlier Middle Indian form. In sum it is impossible to say whether the Buddha spoke Sanskrit or not. It is almost certain that the oral literature preserving his teachings in e.g. the third/second century B.C. was not in Sanskrit. It is unlikely that the first written texts anywhere were in Sanskrit, although it is not possible to absolutely rule out the possibility that the situation was different in some specific region e.g. Kashmir. Lance Cousins >Richard Hayes asked: >In this, as in most things having to do with the history of Buddhism, I >suffer from an appalling ignorance. Could you (or someone else) quickly >outline what the state of the evidence on this topic is This was in response to James Blumenthal: > > I think it would be more accurate to say there is every reason to > believe the Buddha did NOT teach in Sanskrit. From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Fri Nov 18 14:20:57 2005 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri Nov 18 14:29:26 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com><20051117032132.36877.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com><7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com><1132327778.4539.7.camel@localhost.localdomain><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu><1132338831.6240.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <002f01c5ec86$0a1f8da0$ef414e51@zen> Dear Lance, > 2. We do not know at what date vernacular Sanskrit was replaced by an > early vernacular form of Middle Indian. What exactly do you mean by "vernacular Sanskrit" -- something midway between the Vedic language (assuming that the language of the Vedas was truly vernacular, rather than a formal / ritual language) and later Classical Sanskrit (which does not seem very vernacular to me) ? To avoid confusion, my feeling is that it would be better to distinguish the IA language spoken in Vedic times from later Sanskrit proper -- that is, "Sanskrit" in the sense that most people reading this list would understand. Surely Classical Sanskrit and the MIA languages both derive from this earlier IA language, one branch becoming increasingly artificial and literary and the other resulting in the simplications of the MIAs. > Written Sanskrit is not used by Buddhists in any known source that can be > dated before the second century A.D. Forms of Middle Indian were certainly > used for writing by Buddhists between the third century B.C. and the first > century. Are you then assuming that very early Mahayana texts (or proto-Mahayana) such as the Lotus Sutra or the earliest PP sutras (generally believed for a number of reasons to have pre-dated c2nd CE) were written / compiled in some form of MIA prior to their Sanskrit, albeit a hybrid form, versions ? I have no problem with this as it seems reasonable, though I would backdate the introduction of Sanskritized versions somewhat before c2nd CE -- though no more than 150 years. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com Fri Nov 18 20:38:07 2005 From: michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com (Michael J. Wilson) Date: Fri Nov 18 20:39:29 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Christian meditation and eastern symbolism Message-ID: <20051119033807.15770.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Friend, you inspire me! Your way is my way. Peace. I don't have a definition of religion, well, have never really needed to think of one. There is one near definition that comes as close to a definition as I can think of at the moment. What else is there in this "timeless moment"? I would like to leave the origin of the saying a mystery. (It was not Ariosto who said something like believing in mystery, hazard, and infinity): "God is human perfection and man is divine limitation." If wishes were horses beggars would go riding. All the best Michael buddha-l-request@mailman.swcp.com wrote: > Religions are all different variations of the same > quest - there is no denying a mystical inner force in > the universe - unbroken wholeness. That's a quite interesting statement for me. I think that it's necessary to know what you think a religion is in order to really understand it. Could you explain me (us) what is your definition of "religion"? Best wishes, Beni --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051118/05072c13/attachment.html From michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com Fri Nov 18 21:50:28 2005 From: michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com (Michael J. Wilson) Date: Fri Nov 18 21:59:28 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Christian meditation and eastern symbolism Message-ID: <20051119045028.88064.qmail@web34106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Michael J. wrote: > I have no argument with syncretism so I guess I would argue with the > new pontiff. I have nothing to defend. Once having been a student > of anthropology and religion I studied religions paradoxically to > become a better aetheist and a better devotee. Religions are > all different variations of the same quest Man's need to associate around a set of ideas and to create metafamilies? > - there is no denying a > mystical inner force in the universe - unbroken wholeness. We glean > as much in dim light ! of our silent prayer - we were breathing. I don't know about a (unique, is that what you were thinking of?) inner force in the universe, possible, but I consider silence as a mystical inner force in myself. Joy Joy, is meditation in silence possible - beyond the artifices of music, speech, and thought? Do we need to retreat to the monastery to find it? If we try to control or master the mind to find that place of emptiness, are we not exerting a force, pushing the mind to work, to cause brain wave interference patterns that disturb the calm water of our potential stillness? What good are dreams? They only wake us out of silence! How can we even begin to understand the silence before the dreams began? "A seeker of silence am I" Khahil Gibran. There may be no science of silence. Yes I believe in a "unique au monde" inner spiritual voice that unites us all impersonally -as a way that cannot be named - one cosmic breath that bespeaks us to follow most unwittingly, a path mapped out by gurus, mystics, priests, potentiates, charlattans, marchbanks, fools, saints, poets, theosophists and lamas - all on blind trust. Elephants in the dark. michael j wilson --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051118/16d2df58/attachment.htm From selwyn at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 19 01:16:20 2005 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Sat Nov 19 01:19:31 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lance's Remarks on Attan.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brad Clough: >Could we impose on you to list here some of the works you regard as >most useful on this topic? That would take more time than I am prepared to devote to this at present. It will have to wait until the spirit moves me. And I find that the spirit is a very changing and impermanent thing. Of course, despite the intense dislike of it on the website, Steve Collins's book: _Selfless Persons_ (different title in US ?) remains the best treatment. See also: Collins, Steven "What are Buddhists doing when they deny a self?" in _Religion and Practical Reason_ (ed. Reynolds, Frank E. and Tracy, David), State University of New York Press, 1994. Lance From selwyn at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 19 01:04:25 2005 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Sat Nov 19 01:19:32 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha In-Reply-To: <002f01c5ec86$0a1f8da0$ef414e51@zen> References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com><20051117032132.36877.qmail@web3 4109.mail.mud.yahoo.com><7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com><1 132327778.4539.7.camel@localhost.localdomain><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9 EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu><1132338831.6240.24.camel@local host.localdomain> <002f01c5ec86$0a1f8da0$ef414e51@zen> Message-ID: Stephen, >What exactly do you mean by "vernacular Sanskrit" -- something >midway between the Vedic language (assuming that the language of the >Vedas was truly vernacular, rather than a formal / ritual language) >and later Classical Sanskrit (which does not seem very vernacular to >me) ? To avoid confusion, my feeling is that it would be better to >distinguish the IA language spoken in Vedic times from later >Sanskrit proper -- that is, "Sanskrit" in the sense that most people >reading this list would understand. Surely Classical Sanskrit and >the MIA languages both derive from this earlier IA language, one >branch becoming increasingly artificial and literary and the other >resulting in the simplications of the MIAs. By vernacular I mean the spoken language of the day - a language which probably preserved some of the key features of Sanskrit as opposed to Prakrit. I have in mind such things as the preservation of intervocalic consonant groups, the distinction of three sibilants, the r/l distinction, etc. In some areas such a spoken language may have continued in use either generally or among brahmin and perhaps other groups. There is of course an argument that we should give a distinct name to this language, but if we do, we will have to say that the Upani.sads are not written in Sanskrit. By this I mean, that the written form of the Upani.sads (only attested from much later) is rather close to any such language, whatever we call it. >Are you then assuming that very early Mahayana texts (or proto-Mahayana) >such as the Lotus Sutra or the earliest PP sutras (generally believed for a >number of reasons to have pre-dated c2nd CE) were written / compiled in >some form of MIA prior to their Sanskrit, albeit a hybrid form, versions ? Either that or they might originally have been spoken/chanted works, later written down in Sanskrit or some kind of Sanskritized Prakrit. This seems quite possible in the case of the PP works, perhaps less so in the case of the Lotus. >I have no problem with this as it seems reasonable, though I would >backdate the >introduction of Sanskritized versions somewhat before c2nd CE -- though no >more than 150 years. I used to think something like this, but nowadays I do not believe that we have any evidence that compels us to believe that these texts are older than the 2nd century. The early dating of Mahaayaana literature is partly dependent on the dating of the latest parts of the Pali Canon and that is much more controversial these days. The only other argument that is advanced for very early dates is some kind of layering. But even if it is true that we can distinguish such layers, there is no reason to think that such stages would take more than a decade each. The first century material we now have from Gandhaara does not include any Mahaayaana work. It is of course likely that Mahaayaana texts contain material inherited from predecessors in non-Mahaayaana schools whose literature is not preserved today. But beyond that simple statement we cannot identify this. Most such claims are largely fantasy. Take, for example, attempts to attribute a transcendentalist view of the Buddha to the early Mahaasanghikas. This is mainly based upon a combination of a complete misreading of the Kathaavatthu with the (very late) notions of people like Paramaartha. Lance From jamesward at earthlink.net Sat Nov 19 02:59:31 2005 From: jamesward at earthlink.net (James Ward) Date: Sat Nov 19 03:09:33 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha In-Reply-To: References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com><20051117032132.36877.qmail@web3 4109.mail.mud.yahoo.com><7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com><1 132327778.4539.7.camel@localhost.localdomain><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9 EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu><1132338831.6240.24.camel@local host.localdomain> <002f01c5ec86$0a1f8da0$ef414e51@zen> Message-ID: <2DD7274D-58E3-11DA-B4C1-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> Hi Lance and Stephen, I haven't been able to see the published Sch?yen Bamiyan texts yet, but I did note the following from Matsuda Kazunobu: "Next, Dr. Sander and Professor Braarvig found some 40 folio fragments of the A.s.tasaahasrikaapraj~naapaaramitaa among palm-leaf manuscripts in Ku.saa.na script. Dr. Sander infers that these fragments date back to the second century. The language in the text is a kind of Buddhist Sanskrit, a dialect similar to that of the Mahaavastu. For example, "eva.m vutte" represents "evam ukte." The second century is not far from the date when the text of Praj~naapaaramitaa suutras has been established, and now actual evidence has appeared. It proves the fact that the earliest Praj~naapaaramitaa was not completed as a genuine Sanskrit text from the beginning, but that fairly vulgar Prakrit versions of the suutra existed in India preceding the Sanscritized texts. To say the least, these are the earliest Mahaayaana texts which are extant today and written in the beautiful Ku.saa.na script." http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-JOS/jos94088.htm Best wishes, James Ward On Nov 19, 2005, at 12:04 AM, L.S. Cousins wrote: [snip] >> Are you then assuming that very early Mahayana texts (or >> proto-Mahayana) such as the Lotus Sutra or the earliest PP sutras >> (generally believed for a number of reasons to have pre-dated c2nd >> CE) were written / compiled in some form of MIA prior to their >> Sanskrit, albeit a hybrid form, versions ? > > Either that or they might originally have been spoken/chanted works, > later written down in Sanskrit or some kind of Sanskritized Prakrit. > This seems quite possible in the case of the PP works, perhaps less so > in the case of the Lotus. [snip] From joy.vriens at nerim.net Sat Nov 19 03:04:50 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Sat Nov 19 03:09:35 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Christian meditation and eastern symbolism In-Reply-To: <20051119045028.88064.qmail@web34106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051119045028.88064.qmail@web34106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <437EF8C2.8040201@nerim.net> Hi Michael, > Joy, is meditation in silence possible - beyond the artifices of > music, speech, and thought? Difficult question. We can always look at what happens during meditation, but meditation always happens in a context. To allow the possibility of syncretism, one would have to focus on silent meditation without an active engagement in thoughts, images and concepts. Is the output of silent meditation in that case independent of the input of everything that lead up to it? I recently read yet another old stuffy book "Les grands mystiques chr?tiens" (the ones I prefer) by Henri Delacroix. It was a historical and psychological study on some great Christian mystics (Theresea d'Avila, Madame Guyon, Suso). He only picked those mystics that wrote themselves about their personal experiences in order to have first hand access to their experience and their interpretation of it. Unsurprisingly, it turns out that the experiences are very much dependent on the thoughts and beliefs of the experiencees, their personal background, the general framework in which the experience took place and the post-experience processing in order to make it fit in with the general framework. In some periods, the latter was of vital importance in the literal sense of the word... E.g. Suso had become very careful in his phrasing after what happened to his teacher Eckhart. La mystique sauvage by Michel Hulin, is an attempt to isolate the oceanic feeling from a religious background, by studying descriptions of experiences by non religious authors that could be considered as cases of oceanic feeling. If thoughts, images and concepts are dropped, boundaries fade away, and whatever is felt can only be "oceanic", i.e. without boundaries. But as any experience, it can't stand on its own, it has a setting. Is the experience one of pure being and can pure being be isolated from "artifices"? I am not sure but the question seems to keep my interest. > Do we need to retreat to the monastery > to find it? No, but some sort of silence is needed. > If we try to control or master the mind to find that > place of emptiness, are we not exerting a force, pushing the mind to > work, to cause brain wave interference patterns that disturb the > calm water of our potential stillness? Dropping the very wish to act in vue of a result, desinterested action, action free from the 3 spheres, non-action etc., including the artifices as manifestations of the stillness, the concept of stillness in motion etc. are all tricks to want to achieve something without really wanting it. > What good are dreams? They > only wake us out of silence! Perhaps accepting non-silence would make another good trick :-) Tantrism tried that one but in such ritualised forms, that the ritualism took over. > How can we even begin to understand the > silence before the dreams began? "A seeker of silence am I" Khahil > Gibran. There may be no science of silence. Perhaps it's like with philosophy, we can only seek wisdom. Perhaps only moments of wisdom and moments of silence are possible and we should happily accept those that are without it. > Yes I believe in a "unique au monde" inner spiritual voice that > unites us all impersonally -as a way that cannot be named - one > cosmic breath that bespeaks us to follow most unwittingly, a path > mapped out by gurus, mystics, priests, potentiates, charlat! tans, > marchbanks, fools, saints, poets, theosophists and lamas - all on > blind trust. Elephants in the dark. Nicely said, thanks. I try to see all religious affirmations as projects, dreams, instead of focussing on their reality, feasibility etc. From jamesward at earthlink.net Sat Nov 19 04:30:09 2005 From: jamesward at earthlink.net (James Ward) Date: Sat Nov 19 04:39:44 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mahavastu online Message-ID: The Mahavastu Avadana in Sanskrit is available online, by the way: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil/1_sanskr/ 4_rellit/buddh/mhvastuu.htm James Ward From libris at singnet.com.sg Sat Nov 19 07:57:50 2005 From: libris at singnet.com.sg (libris) Date: Sat Nov 19 07:59:36 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Mahavastu online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1132412270.437f3d6e99f9c@discus.singnet.com.sg> Thanks James, again, for this valuable info. Ths Sanskrit edition of the Mvst is a very useful addition to our study. Piya --- James Ward wrote: > The Mahavastu Avadana in Sanskrit is available online, by the way: > > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil/1_sanskr/ > 4_rellit/buddh/mhvastuu.htm > > James Ward > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From libris at singnet.com.sg Sat Nov 19 07:55:05 2005 From: libris at singnet.com.sg (libris) Date: Sat Nov 19 07:59:39 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha In-Reply-To: <2DD7274D-58E3-11DA-B4C1-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com><20051117032132.36877.qmail@web3 4109.mail.mud.yahoo.com><7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com><1 132327778.4539.7.camel@localhost.localdomain><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9 EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu><1132338831.6240.24.camel@local host.localdomain> <002f01c5ec86$0a1f8da0$ef414e51@zen> <2DD7274D-58E3-11DA-B4C1-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1132412105.437f3cc96e089@discus.singnet.com.sg> Dear James, My name is Piya Tan, teaching Sutta studies and meditation at the Brahm Education Centre (the training facility of the Buddhist Fellowship here). My special interest is a comparative study of the Pali Nikayas and Sanskrit texts and the Chinese Agamas. This interest has been spurred on by Ajahn Sujato of the Santi Forest Monastery near Sydney, Australia. Lately I am fortunate to have received some Sanskrit texts of Pali Sutta parallels, that is, those edited by Sander, by Tripathi, by Hosoda, and others. Comparing these Sanskrit texts with their Pali counterparts is such exciting study. These personal studies are published in the Sutta Discovery series which I use for the weekly classes at the National University of Singapore Buddhist Society and the Buddhist Fellowship. I would like to thank you for giving the link to Matsuda's article, which is very helpful in my area of interest. Ajahn Sujato and I are currently looking for the Sanskrit text of the all-important Catusparisad Sutra. We would be very grateful if anyone could hold up a lamp for us here. Sadhu Piya Tan --- James Ward wrote: > Hi Lance and Stephen, > > I haven't been able to see the published Sch?yen Bamiyan texts yet, > but > I did note the following from Matsuda Kazunobu: > > "Next, Dr. Sander and Professor Braarvig found some 40 folio > fragments > of the A.s.tasaahasrikaapraj~naapaaramitaa among palm-leaf > manuscripts > in Ku.saa.na script. Dr. Sander infers that these fragments date > back > to the second century. The language in the text is a kind of > Buddhist > Sanskrit, a dialect similar to that of the Mahaavastu. For example, > > "eva.m vutte" represents "evam ukte." The second century is not far > > from the date when the text of Praj~naapaaramitaa suutras has been > established, and now actual evidence has appeared. It proves the > fact > that the earliest Praj~naapaaramitaa was not completed as a genuine > > Sanskrit text from the beginning, but that fairly vulgar Prakrit > versions of the suutra existed in India preceding the Sanscritized > texts. To say the least, these are the earliest Mahaayaana texts > which > are extant today and written in the beautiful Ku.saa.na script." > > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-JOS/jos94088.htm > > Best wishes, > > James Ward > > > On Nov 19, 2005, at 12:04 AM, L.S. Cousins wrote: > > [snip] > > >> Are you then assuming that very early Mahayana texts (or > >> proto-Mahayana) such as the Lotus Sutra or the earliest PP sutras > > >> (generally believed for a number of reasons to have pre-dated > c2nd > >> CE) were written / compiled in some form of MIA prior to their > >> Sanskrit, albeit a hybrid form, versions ? > > > > Either that or they might originally have been spoken/chanted > works, > > later written down in Sanskrit or some kind of Sanskritized > Prakrit. > > This seems quite possible in the case of the PP works, perhaps > less so > > in the case of the Lotus. > > [snip] > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > From selwyn at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 19 08:18:52 2005 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Sat Nov 19 08:29:36 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha In-Reply-To: <2DD7274D-58E3-11DA-B4C1-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com><20051117032132.36877.qmail@web3 4109.mail.mud.yahoo.com><7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com><1 132327778.4539.7.camel@localhost.localdomain><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9 EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu><1132338831.6240.24.camel@local host.localdomain> <002f01c5ec86$0a1f8da0$ef414e51@zen> <2DD7274D-58E3-11DA-B4C1-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> Message-ID: James, Lore Sander is more cautious in her published statement and suggests 'probably into the second half of the third century B.C.' (Jens Braarvig et al., Buddhist Manuscripts, Vol I p. 288). But it is not too precise and a date in the late second century is also possible. I do not understand why Kazunobu thinks that this proves the existence of a prior Prakrit version. There seems no reason to rule out the possibility that it was written down in BHS from the beginning. That of course would not rule out a prior oral version. Lance >Hi Lance and Stephen, > >I haven't been able to see the published Sch?yen Bamiyan texts yet, >but I did note the following from Matsuda Kazunobu: > >"Next, Dr. Sander and Professor Braarvig found some 40 folio >fragments of the A.s.tasaahasrikaapraj~naapaaramitaa among palm-leaf >manuscripts in Ku.saa.na script. Dr. Sander infers that these >fragments date back to the second century. The language in the text >is a kind of Buddhist Sanskrit, a dialect similar to that of the >Mahaavastu. For example, "eva.m vutte" represents "evam ukte." The >second century is not far from the date when the text of >Praj~naapaaramitaa suutras has been established, and now actual >evidence has appeared. It proves the fact that the earliest >Praj~naapaaramitaa was not completed as a genuine Sanskrit text from >the beginning, but that fairly vulgar Prakrit versions of the suutra >existed in India preceding the Sanscritized texts. To say the least, >these are the earliest Mahaayaana texts which are extant today and >written in the beautiful Ku.saa.na script." > >http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-JOS/jos94088.htm > >Best wishes, > >James Ward From rhayes at unm.edu Sat Nov 19 08:35:17 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Sat Nov 19 08:39:38 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lance's Remarks on Attan.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1132414517.4365.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-11-19 at 08:16 +0000, L.S. Cousins wrote: > Of course, despite the intense dislike of it on the website, Steve > Collins's book: _Selfless Persons_ (different title in US ?) remains > the best treatment. That really is a wonderful book. I keep returning to it and finding more to it all the time. I am not sure which website you are referring to when you say there is a intense dislike of it. Are you thinking of the bizarre review of the book that appears on Amazon.com, which someone quoted her to show what a crank Ken Wheeler is? > See also: Collins, Steven "What are Buddhists doing when they deny a > self?" in _Religion and Practical Reason_ (ed. Reynolds, Frank E. > and Tracy, David), State University of New York Press, 1994. The American philosopher Kripke once quipped in a typical Kripke quip: "The problem with doing philosophy in the 20th century is that all the sensible positions have already been taken. The only unoccupied positions left for us to defend are nonsense." One could caricature Collins's position as saying something along the same lines: by the time the Buddhists got on the scene, all the sensible positions had been taken, leaving the Buddhist scholastics with nothing but a rather extreme form of the anaatman doctrine to defend. I think the Buddhist scholastics did their best, but I have become increasingly unsatisfied with their position. Someone whose work on various Buddhist views on non-self that I admire is James Duerlinger, who has several good pieces in Journal of Indian Philosophy. His approach is more philosophical than historical or philological. If philosophy is your cup of tea, give him a try, if you haven't already. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu Sat Nov 19 09:48:07 2005 From: james.blumenthal at oregonstate.edu (Blumenthal, James) Date: Sat Nov 19 10:09:44 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com><20051117032132.36877.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com><7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com> <1132327778.4539.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <437E2E31.2020409@nerim.net> Message-ID: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E010877D3@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> -----Original Message----- From: buddha-l-bounces@mailman.swcp.com on behalf of Joy Vriens Sent: Fri 11/18/2005 11:40 AM To: Buddhist discussion forum Subject: Re: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha Blumenthal, James wrote: > There is no reason to believe he knew Sanskrit. Then who did all the plagiarizing? Joy, Please do not misquote me. I DID NOT SAY that there is no reason to believe the Buddha knew Sanskrit. I wrote, "I think it would be more accurate to say there is every reason to believe the Buddha did NOT teach in Sanskrit." Jim Blumenthal It is well know that the Buddha taught in local vernacular languages so as to increase accessibility of the teachings and not limit his audience to male Brahmins, the only people who knew Sanskrit in "India" at the time. Whether or not the Buddha KNEW Sanskrit is another question, but I do not see what it has to do with plagiarizing. Maybe you can help me out on this one. Jim Blumenthal James Blumenthal Dept. of Philosophy Oregon State University 102-A Hovland Hall Corvallis, OR 97331-3902 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051119/925f94b5/attachment.htm From selwyn at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 19 10:56:11 2005 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Sat Nov 19 10:59:39 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lance's Remarks on Attan.com In-Reply-To: <1132414517.4365.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1132414517.4365.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Referring to _Selfless Persons_, Richard Hayes writes: >That really is a wonderful book. I keep returning to it and finding more >to it all the time. I am not sure which website you are referring to >when you say there is a intense dislike of it. Are you thinking of the >bizarre review of the book that appears on Amazon.com, which someone >quoted her to show what a crank Ken Wheeler is? I wasn't, but I clearly should have been. I think I was reacting to the rather visible absence of any mention of this book on attan-com. Lance From joy.vriens at nerim.net Sat Nov 19 12:27:29 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Sat Nov 19 12:29:41 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha In-Reply-To: <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E010877D3@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com><20051117032132.36877.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com><7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com> <1132327778.4539.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> <437E2E31.2020409@nerim.net> <0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9EB7E010877D3@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu> Message-ID: <437F7CA1.4050109@nerim.net> Dear Jim, > Please do not misquote me. I DID NOT SAY that there is no reason to > believe the Buddha knew Sanskrit. I wrote, > "I think it would be more accurate to say there is every reason to > believe the Buddha did NOT teach in Sanskrit." Yes, that is clearer to me, since the message that sparked off the discussion said "There is every reason to beleive that the Buddha spoke Sanskrit, and was educated in Sanskrit". Malcolm himself didn't mention *teaching* in Sanskrit. I like and appreciate the life story of the Buddha and find it inspiring, but think his role in what finally evolved into the Buddhist canon is considerably smaller then I was initially taught. > It is well know that the Buddha taught in local vernacular languages so > as to increase accessibility of the teachings and not limit his audience > to male Brahmins, the only people who knew Sanskrit in "India" at the > time. Yes that is very plausible, although I am not sure about the intent ("as to"). It probably simply happened that way naturally. Whether or not the Buddha KNEW Sanskrit is another question, but > I do not see what it has to do with plagiarizing. Maybe you can help me > out on this one. I don't know understand why the question whether the Buddha knew Sanskrit or not is of any importance, or what that proves or disproves. But it is clear to me that he or the authors of his utterances were educated men, with access to texts of other traditions. Some of the words, notions, analogies attributed to the Buddha were very likely allusions to or quotations or caricatures of e.g. Brahmanist texts. In those happy times plagiarism didn't exist and was rightly considered as a mark of respect and consideration and not as an attempt to steal revenu, so I was exaggerating a bit by calling it plagiarizing. Best wishes, Joy From jamesward at earthlink.net Sun Nov 20 03:38:25 2005 From: jamesward at earthlink.net (James Ward) Date: Sun Nov 20 03:39:54 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha In-Reply-To: <1132412105.437f3cc96e089@discus.singnet.com.sg> References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com><20051117032132.36877.qmail@web3 4109.mail.mud.yahoo.com><7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com><1 132327778.4539.7.camel@localhost.localdomain><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9 EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu><1132338831.6240.24.camel@local host.localdomain> <002f01c5ec86$0a1f8da0$ef414e51@zen> <2DD7274D-58E3-11DA-B4C1-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> <1132412105.437f3cc96e089@discus.singnet.com.sg> Message-ID: Dear Piya, I'm glad the links were of some help. (I should have mentioned that the Mahavastu file is about 2 megabytes, so that some could be forewarned.) The Catusparisatsutra seems to _almost_ be online -- see the "Sanskrit Buddhist Canon Input" section of the website of the Nagarjuna Institute of Exact Methods http://www.nagarjunainstitute.com/ In the subsection entitled "Completed Inputs" this sutra is listed, but it is not yet available in the subsection "Sutra Titles." Perhaps you could write to them and they could send you a copy before it is posted on the website, or at least give you an idea of when they plan to make it available. Other than that, I stole the following information from the HOLLIS catalogue. You can see that Prof. Waldschmidt deals with Sanskrit, Tibetan, Pali and a translation of the Chinese. I think I will try to obtain this through interlibrary loan (thanks for the idea!), so let me know if you have difficulties finding it or the electronic copy above, and maybe I can send it, assuming it is available (and depending on how large it is! but the Sanskrit text alone should be short enough, regardless). Title : Das Catu?pari?ats?tra;?eine kanonische Lehrschrift ?ber die Begr?ndung der buddhistischen Gemeinde. Text in Sanskrit und Tibetisch, verglichen mit dem P?li nebst einer ?bersetzung der chinesischen Entsprechung im Vinaya der M?lasv?stiv?dins,?auf Grund von Turfan-Handschriften hrsg. und bearb. von Ernst Waldschmidt. Published : Berlin,?Akademie-Verlag,?1952- Description : v.?30cm. Series : Abhandlungen der Deutschen Akademie der Wissenschaften zu Berlin, Klasse f?r Sprachen, Literatur und Kunst,?Jahrg. 1952, Nr.2 Contents : T. 1. Der Sanskrit-Text im handschriftlichen Befund. T.2-3. Textbearbeitung: Vorgang, 1-28 Best wishes, James Ward From joy.vriens at nerim.net Sun Nov 20 03:39:18 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Sun Nov 20 03:39:56 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism and History In-Reply-To: <004101c5d9e3$073effe0$7dee6480@chass> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20051024091333.0123ca00@mail.jcu.edu.au><02fd515f489dfa12562d57f7ee62ff91@mindspring.com><00ad01c5d8ce$70566560$7dee6480@chass><1130176012.5784.26.camel@localhost.localdomain><2417.128.100.178.185.1130182366.squirrel@128.100.178.185><1798.128.100.178.176.1130189549.squirrel@128.100.178.176><1130197259.5476.75.camel@localhost.localdomain><00fe01c5d98f$5b0a9ca0$7dee6480@chass><001a01c5d995$d4ff9000$7dee6480@chass> <004101c5d9e3$073effe0$7dee6480@chass> Message-ID: <43805256.2000901@nerim.net> Yesterday the AFP published the following news item (in French sorry ). When trying to find the equivalent declarations by HHDL in Edinburgh on 19/11/2005 in English, I didn't find the very declaration I was looking for but the following article in the Anchorage Daily News (http://www.adn.com/24hour/iraq/story/994716p-6985161c.html) <> In his declaration of 19/11/2005, he said: ""Pour les guerres d'Afghanistan et d'Irak, il est trop t?t pour le dire. Seule l'Histoire nous dira si elles ont apport? du positif ou du n?gatif. Je ne sais pas. Il est trop t?t pour le dire", a-t-il ajout?." It is too early to say for the wars in Afghanistan and in Iraq [whether they are justified]. Only History (mark the capital H) will tell us whether they brought about something positive or negative. It is too early to tell." Where does that leave Buddhist morality, which uesd to be based on the karma theory? It is the reference to history or History (I don't expect the capital H was intended by HHDL) by a Buddhist leader as a moral justification that seems to be a new element to me. Or has it been used before? As an aside the argument that History will be the ultimate judge for the justification of those wars has been tirelessly advanced by the pro-war faction, because it can't count on the current sittion for that. And I have heard it used for the first time by HHDL since his visit to Bush... Joy --------------------------------------------------- Dala?-lama: l'histoire dira si la guerre en Irak a ?t? positive AFP 19.11.05 | 15h25 Le dala?-lama, chef spirituel en exil des Tib?tains, a estim? samedi qu'il ?tait "trop t?t" pour dire si les guerres en Afganistan ou en Irak avaient des effets positifs ou n?gatifs. "La seconde Guerre mondiale et la guerre de Cor?e, m?me si elles ont caus? d'immenses destructions, en particulier la seconde Guerre mondiale avec l'usage de la puissance nucl?aire, ont eu en fin de compte un effet positif", a d?clar? le prix Nobel de la Paix 1989, lors d'une rencontre avec le public ? Edimbourg (Ecosse). "La seconde Guerre mondiale a prot?g? les valeurs et la civilisation occidentales. De jeunes Cor?ens ne sont pas d'accord avec moi, mais ? mon avis la guerre de Cor?e, malgr? ses immenses destructions, a sauv? la Cor?e du Sud, lui a amen? le d?veloppement ?conomique et en fin de compte la d?mocratie et la libert?", a-t-il poursuivi. "Pour les guerres d'Afghanistan et d'Irak, il est trop t?t pour le dire. ***Seule l'Histoire nous dira si elles ont apport? du positif ou du n?gatif. Je ne sais pas. Il est trop t?t pour le dire"***, a-t-il ajout?. "En th?orie", la religion boudhiste autorise l'emploi de la violence "dans certaines circonstances", "dans un objectif bon", s'il s'agit de prot?ger les int?r?ts et la vie de la majorit? de la population, a-t-il observ?. "En pratique, la violence cr?e toujours des probl?mes. L'usage de la violence peut r?gler certains probl?mes, mais en cr?e d'autres", a poursuivi le religieux tib?tain. "Le mieux est donc toujours de faire des compromis, de r?gler les probl?mes par la n?gociation, le dialogue, la r?conciliation. M?me si vous n'obtenez pas totale satisfaction, il n'y a pas d'effets secondaires", a-t-il dit. "Le monde actuel est interd?pendant, du point de vue de l'?conomie et de l'?cologie. Le monde devient une seule entit?, un seul corps", a-t-il dit, et dans ce monde les probl?mes doivent ?tre r?gl?s par des "moyens non-violents", et "le compromis". "Parfois les gens ont l'impression que le monde devient plus violent. Je ne le crois pas", a-t-il dit, relevant notamment que "apr?s l'?croulement du mur de Berlin, le r?el, grave danger d'holocauste nucl?aire a disparu". "De mani?re g?n?rale, malgr? certains probl?mes, la violence, y compris le terrorisme, le monde devient plus s?r, plus pacifique", a-t-il estim?. ------------------------ From jamesward at earthlink.net Sun Nov 20 03:42:42 2005 From: jamesward at earthlink.net (James Ward) Date: Sun Nov 20 03:49:52 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha In-Reply-To: References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com><20051117032132.36877.qmail@web3 4109.mail.mud.yahoo.com><7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com><1 132327778.4539.7.camel@localhost.localdomain><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9 EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu><1132338831.6240.24.camel@local host.localdomain> <002f01c5ec86$0a1f8da0$ef414e51@zen> <2DD7274D-58E3-11DA-B4C1-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <60FECAE4-59B2-11DA-8D3A-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> Hi Lance, You wrote: > I do not understand why Kazunobu thinks that this proves the existence > of a prior Prakrit version. I wondered about that too! > There seems no reason to rule out the possibility that it was written > down in BHS from the beginning. That of course would not rule out a > prior oral version. Best, James From jamesward at earthlink.net Sun Nov 20 05:22:09 2005 From: jamesward at earthlink.net (James Ward) Date: Sun Nov 20 05:29:55 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism and History In-Reply-To: <43805256.2000901@nerim.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20051024091333.0123ca00@mail.jcu.edu.au><02fd515f489dfa12562d57f7ee62ff91@mindspring.com><00ad01c5d8ce$70566560$7dee6480@chass><1130176012.5784.26.camel@localhost.localdomain><2417.128.100.178.185.1130182366.squirrel@128.100.178.185><1798.128.100.178.176.1130189549.squirrel@128.100.178.176><1130197259.5476.75.camel@localhost.localdomain><00fe01c5d98f$5b0a9ca0$7dee6480@chass><001a01c5d995$d4ff9000$7dee6480@chass> <004101c5d9e3$073effe0$7dee6480@chass> <43805256.2000901@nerim.net> Message-ID: <453E3B75-59C0-11DA-8D3A-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> Dear Joy, You wrote: [snip] > < Afghanistan may have been justified to win a larger peace, but that is > it too soon to judge whether the Iraq war was warranted. > "I think history will tell," he said in an interview with The > Associated Press on Wednesday, just after he met with President > Bush.>> I did not check the context of the original English-language article (particularly "justified" and "warranted") to see if it is different from the French article you quoted, but based on what you have cited here, it is unfortunate that he did not come right out against the wars. In Iraq, the use of uranium and chemical weapons, the implementation of the "Salvadoran solution" -- all those people who turn up dead in dumps, with their hands bound, with signs of torture, shot through the head, the ones they don't say a thing about in our television news in the States -- the torture in Abu Ghrayb and Baghram (etc.), the pre-emptive attack on a prostrate country based on a tissue of lies, the pig-headed prosecution of this attack in the face of unprecedented calls for peace (or at least closer analysis!) from millions of people in the US and around the world, the tens of thousands of dead innocents, the glorious war profits... these things should be enough to indicate that in itself this war is unjustified and unwarranted, if these are the terms he had any uncertainties about. (As for Afghanistan, the use of uranium weapons [and torture, _parenthetically_] in that country -- and wherever else the winds blow -- should be enough in itself to put the kabosh to any further trumpet fanfares about the just nature of our actions there. Spreading radioactive dust around a country cannot be separated from our motivation for such warfare -- if some supposedly righteous idea is put into action in a criminal way, the only justifiable bit of flotsam left to us is the idea, intangible in the midst of horrendous consequences. [I'll avoid heresy and not question the causes for the war in Afghanistan here.]) However: > In his declaration of 19/11/2005, he said: ""Pour les guerres > d'Afghanistan et d'Irak, il est trop t?t pour le dire. Seule > l'Histoire nous dira si elles ont apport? du positif ou du n?gatif. Je > ne sais pas. Il est trop t?t pour le dire", a-t-il ajout?." It is too > early to say for the wars in Afghanistan and in Iraq [whether they are > justified]. Only History (mark the capital H) will tell us whether > they brought about something positive or negative. It is too early to > tell." Since he is here talking about positive and negative consequences, this is a somewhat different matter, and he was probably talking about the same thing in the English article. It's possible that one of the consequences of these war-criminal acts will be the wariness of the US public (and perhaps even the legislature) when it comes to reposing trust in the war-making rationalizations of the US executive. But our victims have paid a very high price for any awakening that may occur here. Is it worth it? Nonetheless, such a result could be said to be "positive." > Where does that leave Buddhist morality, which uesd to be based on the > karma theory? > > It is the reference to history or History (I don't expect the capital > H was intended by HHDL) by a Buddhist leader as a moral justification > that seems to be a new element to me. Or has it been used before? In English we say "time will tell." It seems like this should be common to human thought around the world, so surely a Buddhist has said something like this too. I'm not sure if he is using it as a moral justification for the Second World War _per se_ in the French article, though. Isn't he just saying that some good came from it? > As an aside the argument that History will be the ultimate judge for > the justification of those wars has been tirelessly advanced by the > pro-war faction, because it can't count on the current sittion for > that. And I have heard it used for the first time by HHDL since his > visit to Bush... He is careful to state that in practice war always creates problems, even if it is at times theoretically justified, and that dialogue and compromise are the best avenues to solutions of our conflicts. It seems to me that he means "later we'll see if any good comes out of these wars," which is defensible. I'm certainly open to disagreement, though, if anyone reads this differently. If he means they may be _justified_ by their eventual consequences, then I think he goofed. All the best, James Ward From joy.vriens at nerim.net Sun Nov 20 06:50:28 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Sun Nov 20 06:59:55 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism and History In-Reply-To: <453E3B75-59C0-11DA-8D3A-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20051024091333.0123ca00@mail.jcu.edu.au><02fd515f489dfa12562d57f7ee62ff91@mindspring.com><00ad01c5d8ce$70566560$7dee6480@chass><1130176012.5784.26.camel@localhost.localdomain><2417.128.100.178.185.1130182366.squirrel@128.100.178.185><1798.128.100.178.176.1130189549.squirrel@128.100.178.176><1130197259.5476.75.camel@localhost.localdomain><00fe01c5d98f$5b0a9ca0$7dee6480@chass><001a01c5d995$d4ff9000$7dee6480@chass> <004101c5d9e3$073effe0$7dee6480@chass> <43805256.2000901@nerim.net> <453E3B75-59C0-11DA-8D3A-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43807F24.80606@nerim.net> Dear James, > Since he is here talking about positive and negative consequences, this > is a somewhat different matter, and he was probably talking about the > same thing in the English article. It's possible that one of the > consequences of these war-criminal acts will be the wariness of the US > public (and perhaps even the legislature) when it comes to reposing > trust in the war-making rationalizations of the US executive. But our > victims have paid a very high price for any awakening that may occur > here. Is it worth it? Nonetheless, such a result could be said to be > "positive." But for whom or for what? What does it mean when we say "time will tell", or "history" or "History" ("world history exhibits nothing other than the plan of providence" Hegel) ? What does that imply for our moral conduct *here and now*? And what causes will be linked up to what consequences in the view of history? If Europe (especially the countries most touched by wars and having witnessed them on their own territory) has become so totally wary of warfare, that it is less military action prone, is that a positive thing (although hawks would say no) made possible by all the warfare and misery? Does that make all the warfare and misery acceptable? And by saying "time will tell" aren't we accepting the idea that we sacrify ourselves, others, generations, the present etc. to make greater happiness possible for future generations. And what sort of happiness would that be ? Is it perhaps simply for the sake of survival of the human race ? What would be good about that? Or for a Buddhist teacher, the emptying out of samsara? What is that teleological happiness that will justify sacrifices made or imposed now? And if we are so obsessed with what history or time will tell and go to war for that reason, then why not put at least the same effort in anticipating catastrophes caused by global heating, poverty, AIDS etc.? That History is misused by some, that misuse anything they can anyway, I disapprove of but understand, because it fits in with their general attitude, but that someone like HHDL accepts that argument I can't comprehend. Perhaps it is a sort of political concession or effort to please. > He is careful to state that in practice war always creates problems, > even if it is at times theoretically justified, and that dialogue and > compromise are the best avenues to solutions of our conflicts. It seems > to me that he means "later we'll see if any good comes out of these > wars," which is defensible. I'm certainly open to disagreement, though, > if anyone reads this differently. If he means they may be _justified_ > by their eventual consequences, then I think he goofed. Perhaps he was talking from different perspectives. As a politician, one has to think long term and for the general benefit of one's country. Proves again IMO that the two hats HHDL is wearing, can't be worn by the same person. I simply don't believe in philosopher-kings or theocrats. From curt at cola.iges.org Sun Nov 20 07:46:30 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Sun Nov 20 07:49:56 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism and History In-Reply-To: <43805256.2000901@nerim.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20051024091333.0123ca00@mail.jcu.edu.au><02fd515f489dfa12562d57f7ee62ff91@mindspring.com><00ad01c5d8ce$70566560$7dee6480@chass><1130176012.5784.26.camel@localhost.localdomain><2417.128.100.178.185.1130182366.squirrel@128.100.178.185><1798.128.100.178.176.1130189549.squirrel@128.100.178.176><1130197259.5476.75.camel@localhost.localdomain><00fe01c5d98f$5b0a9ca0$7dee6480@chass><001a01c5d995$d4ff9000$7dee6480@chass> <004101c5d9e3$073effe0$7dee6480@chass> <43805256.2000901@nerim.net> Message-ID: <43808C46.6090906@cola.iges.org> The Dalai Lama is probably playing politics here. His Holiness receives a great deal of political support from across a very broad political spectrum in the US. Jean Kilpatrick - who was a neocon long before being neocon was cool - has been consistent and outspoken in her support for Tibet. Of course, for many american conservatives Tibet is just a convenient club to be used against their arch-nemesis, Communist China. Kirkpatrick is a member of the "Committee of 100 for Tibet" - she makes for strange bedfellows with Joan Baez, Ramsey Clark, Alice Walker, David Lynch and Oliver Stone. But sometimes "playing politics" is simply what has to be done. His Holiness is, like all Tibetan exiles, a person without a legal national status. He is completely at the mercy of "friendly countries" who are willing to piss off China. The Chinese will apply whatever pressure they can to whoever they think is susceptible, to not even allow HHDL into their country. If we keep buying cheap plastic crap from China at the rate we're going, the Dalai Lama won't be allowed in the US before much longer. - Curt Joy Vriens wrote: > Yesterday the AFP published the following news item (in French sorry > ). When trying to find the equivalent declarations by HHDL in > Edinburgh on 19/11/2005 in English, I didn't find the very declaration > I was looking for but the following article in the Anchorage Daily > News (http://www.adn.com/24hour/iraq/story/994716p-6985161c.html) > > < Afghanistan may have been justified to win a larger peace, but that is > it too soon to judge whether the Iraq war was warranted. > "I think history will tell," he said in an interview with The > Associated Press on Wednesday, just after he met with President Bush.>> > > In his declaration of 19/11/2005, he said: ""Pour les guerres > d'Afghanistan et d'Irak, il est trop t?t pour le dire. Seule > l'Histoire nous dira si elles ont apport? du positif ou du n?gatif. Je > ne sais pas. Il est trop t?t pour le dire", a-t-il ajout?." It is too > early to say for the wars in Afghanistan and in Iraq [whether they are > justified]. Only History (mark the capital H) will tell us whether > they brought about something positive or negative. It is too early to > tell." Where does that leave Buddhist morality, which uesd to be based > on the karma theory? > > It is the reference to history or History (I don't expect the capital > H was intended by HHDL) by a Buddhist leader as a moral justification > that seems to be a new element to me. Or has it been used before? As > an aside the argument that History will be the ultimate judge for the > justification of those wars has been tirelessly advanced by the > pro-war faction, because it can't count on the current sittion for > that. And I have heard it used for the first time by HHDL since his > visit to Bush... > > Joy > > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Dala?-lama: l'histoire dira si la guerre en Irak a ?t? positive > AFP 19.11.05 | 15h25 > > Le dala?-lama, chef spirituel en exil des Tib?tains, a estim? samedi > qu'il ?tait "trop t?t" pour dire si les guerres en Afganistan ou en > Irak avaient des effets positifs ou n?gatifs. > > "La seconde Guerre mondiale et la guerre de Cor?e, m?me si elles ont > caus? d'immenses destructions, en particulier la seconde Guerre > mondiale avec l'usage de la puissance nucl?aire, ont eu en fin de > compte un effet positif", a d?clar? le prix Nobel de la Paix 1989, > lors d'une rencontre avec le public ? Edimbourg (Ecosse). > > "La seconde Guerre mondiale a prot?g? les valeurs et la civilisation > occidentales. De jeunes Cor?ens ne sont pas d'accord avec moi, mais ? > mon avis la guerre de Cor?e, malgr? ses immenses destructions, a sauv? > la Cor?e du Sud, lui a amen? le d?veloppement ?conomique et en fin de > compte la d?mocratie et la libert?", a-t-il poursuivi. > > "Pour les guerres d'Afghanistan et d'Irak, il est trop t?t pour le > dire. ***Seule l'Histoire nous dira si elles ont apport? du positif ou > du n?gatif. Je ne sais pas. Il est trop t?t pour le dire"***, a-t-il > ajout?. > > "En th?orie", la religion boudhiste autorise l'emploi de la violence > "dans certaines circonstances", "dans un objectif bon", s'il s'agit de > prot?ger les int?r?ts et la vie de la majorit? de la population, > a-t-il observ?. > > "En pratique, la violence cr?e toujours des probl?mes. L'usage de la > violence peut r?gler certains probl?mes, mais en cr?e d'autres", a > poursuivi le religieux tib?tain. > > "Le mieux est donc toujours de faire des compromis, de r?gler les > probl?mes par la n?gociation, le dialogue, la r?conciliation. M?me si > vous n'obtenez pas totale satisfaction, il n'y a pas d'effets > secondaires", a-t-il dit. > > "Le monde actuel est interd?pendant, du point de vue de l'?conomie et > de l'?cologie. Le monde devient une seule entit?, un seul corps", > a-t-il dit, et dans ce monde les probl?mes doivent ?tre r?gl?s par des > "moyens non-violents", et "le compromis". > > "Parfois les gens ont l'impression que le monde devient plus violent. > Je ne le crois pas", a-t-il dit, relevant notamment que "apr?s > l'?croulement du mur de Berlin, le r?el, grave danger d'holocauste > nucl?aire a disparu". > > "De mani?re g?n?rale, malgr? certains probl?mes, la violence, y > compris le terrorisme, le monde devient plus s?r, plus pacifique", > a-t-il estim?. > > ------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From tatelman at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 20 09:18:14 2005 From: tatelman at sympatico.ca (Joel Tatelman) Date: Sun Nov 20 09:19:56 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha In-Reply-To: References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com><20051117032132.36877.qmail@web3 4109.mail.mud.yahoo.com><7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com><1 132327778.4539.7.camel@localhost.localdomain><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9 EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu><1132338831.6240.24.camel@local host.localdomain> <002f01c5ec86$0a1f8da0$ef414e51@zen> <2DD7274D-58E3-11DA-B4C1-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> <1132412105.437f3cc96e089@discus.singnet.com.sg> Message-ID: <5ee7c3174baacf14177fbd0cc5867b9c@sympatico.ca> Piya, In case it's any help, the Sanskrit text of the Catu.spari.satsuutra occurs in the Muulasarvaastivaada Vinaya. It is printed in the sections of that Vinaya edited and published by R. Gnoli (Rome, 1977-78). An English translation was published by Ria Kloppenberg (burg?), but I'm not sure if hers is based on Waldschmidt's edition or Gnoli's. Sorry I don't have full bibliographical references: I don't have access to any suitably stocked library. Hope this helps, Joel Tatelman. From bclough at aucegypt.edu Sun Nov 20 15:26:39 2005 From: bclough at aucegypt.edu (bclough) Date: Sun Nov 20 15:30:00 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lance's Remarks on Attan.com Message-ID: Brad Clough: > >Could we impose on you to list here some of the works you regard as > >most useful on this topic? >Lance Cousins: >Of course, despite the intense dislike of it on the website, Steve > Collins's book: Selfless Persons... Brad now replies: Oh yes, I'm aware of the important works on anatta/anatman. What I was inquiring about had to do with an observation I thought you made (I may have misunderstood you here) about scholarship that convincingly separates supposedly early from supposedly later strata of the "Pali canon." If you indeed were implying this, I'd love to see references on that topic, but of course would understand if the spirit that might move you to do this is currently in remission... Best, Brad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051120/a5f29b91/attachment.html From bclough at aucegypt.edu Sun Nov 20 16:03:53 2005 From: bclough at aucegypt.edu (bclough) Date: Sun Nov 20 16:10:01 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism and History Message-ID: >The Dalai Lama said Wednesday (9/11/2005) that the U.S.-led war in > Afghanistan may have been justified... This may be an interesting "real politik" move by the Dalai Lama, following last week's meeting with Bush, in which Bush promised to bring the DL's ideas for Tibetan autonomy to the Chinese. At least this is what the DL said Bush promised, during an interview with PBS' Charlie Rose. But it seems that the DL may be contradicting himself a bit, given that he said quite unequivocally in the interview with Rose that in today's world war was not the solution to any problem. Brad bclough@aucegypt.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051120/7fd102b4/attachment.htm From mike at lamrim.org.uk Sun Nov 20 16:45:46 2005 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Sun Nov 20 16:50:00 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] The process of death Message-ID: There are several texts in the Tibetan tradition(s) that describe the process of death. Are there any other references - particularly earlier ones? -- Metta Mike Austin From bclough at aucegypt.edu Sun Nov 20 17:11:29 2005 From: bclough at aucegypt.edu (bclough) Date: Sun Nov 20 17:20:03 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] The process of death Message-ID: > There are several texts in the Tibetan tradition(s) that describe the > process of death. Are there any other references - particularly earlier > ones? While none of them go into the detail that later Tibetan traditions do, some early Indian Buddhist schools did maintain that there was an "intermediate state" between death and rebirth. One good piece on this is: Alex Wayman, 'The Intermediate-State Dispute in Buddhism', Buddhist Studies in Honour of I. B. Horner, eds. L. Cousins et al. (Dordrecht, 1974), p. 230. This essay also appears in George Elder, ed., *Buddhist Insight: Essays by Alex Wayman* (Motilal Banarsidass, 1984) Brad bclough@aucegypt.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051121/a417475a/attachment.html From zelders.yh at wxs.nl Sun Nov 20 17:58:18 2005 From: zelders.yh at wxs.nl (Zelders.YH) Date: Sun Nov 20 18:00:02 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: Sanskrit speaking Buddha In-Reply-To: <200511201900.jAKJ0kYw007260@ns1.swcp.com> References: <200511201900.jAKJ0kYw007260@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20051121014753.02858438@pop.wxs.nl> > >Piya, >In case it's any help, the Sanskrit text of the Catu.spari.satsuutra >occurs in the Muulasarvaastivaada Vinaya. It is printed in the sections >of that Vinaya edited and published by R. Gnoli (Rome, 1977-78). >An English translation was published by Ria Kloppenberg (burg?), but >I'm not sure if hers is based on Waldschmidt's edition or Gnoli's. >Sorry I don't have full bibliographical references: I don't have access >to any suitably stocked library. >Hope this helps, >Joel Tatelman. 'The Sutra of the Foundation of the Buddhist Order' ('Catusparisatsutra'), transl. by Ria Kloppenborg, Leiden, 1973. Her translation is based on Waldschmidt's edition. Herman Z. From curt at cola.iges.org Sun Nov 20 19:12:54 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Sun Nov 20 19:20:04 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] The process of death In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43812D26.8000502@cola.iges.org> In the chapter on "The Abhidharma" Rupert Gethin deals with this in his "Foundations of Buddhism" - specifically in the subsection on "The consciousness process, karma and rebirth". Here's what he says, in part (on p. 217): "The Tibetan belief in the bar-do or "in between state" (antaraa-bhava) is inhererited from the Sarvaastivadin Abhidharma and is associated with the elaborate practices of the Bar-do Thos-grol, the so-called Tibetan Book of the Dead. This notion of the "in between state" was a subject of dispute among ancient Indian schools of the Buddhism: the Theravadins denied that it was coherent from an Abhidhamra perspective, since an in-between existence must be another kind of existence." Gethin places the discussion of the "in-between state" in the context of two other issues: (1) the Bhavanga, or state of mind a being is born with, and (2) the importance of a being's state of mind at the time of death. I know that the idea of the "in-between state" is not limited to Tantric Buddhism - in Korean Buddhism it is traditional to perform a "49-day Ceremony" 49 days after a person dies, because that is believed to be the end of the "in-between state" and the beginning of their new lifetime. During the 49 day ceremony relatives and loved ones might pray to "Ji Jang Bosal" (the Korean version of Kshitigarbha Bodhisattva). - Curt Mike Austin wrote: > There are several texts in the Tibetan tradition(s) that describe the > process of death. Are there any other references - particularly > earlier ones? > From libris at singnet.com.sg Sun Nov 20 20:44:08 2005 From: libris at singnet.com.sg (Piya Tan) Date: Sun Nov 20 20:50:05 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] The process of death References: <43812D26.8000502@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <43814288.BBD82319@singnet.com.sg> Dear Curt, Many modern Theravada teachers (not all though) today I think prefer the "antarabhaava" perspective (or theory). I know Ajahn Brahmavamso, a pupil of Ajahn Chah, has openly said so in this public talks. Perhaps, the "immediate rebirth" notion is exclusively that of certain Theravada groups. Piya curt wrote: > In the chapter on "The Abhidharma" Rupert Gethin deals with this in his > "Foundations of Buddhism" - specifically in the subsection on "The > consciousness process, karma and rebirth". Here's what he says, in part > (on p. 217): > > "The Tibetan belief in the bar-do or "in between state" (antaraa-bhava) > is inhererited from the Sarvaastivadin Abhidharma and is associated with > the elaborate practices of the Bar-do Thos-grol, the so-called Tibetan > Book of the Dead. This notion of the "in between state" was a subject of > dispute among ancient Indian schools of the Buddhism: the Theravadins > denied that it was coherent from an Abhidhamra perspective, since an > in-between existence must be another kind of existence." > > Gethin places the discussion of the "in-between state" in the context of > two other issues: (1) the Bhavanga, or state of mind a being is born > with, and (2) the importance of a being's state of mind at the time of > death. > > I know that the idea of the "in-between state" is not limited to Tantric > Buddhism - in Korean Buddhism it is traditional to perform a "49-day > Ceremony" 49 days after a person dies, because that is believed to be > the end of the "in-between state" and the beginning of their new > lifetime. During the 49 day ceremony relatives and loved ones might pray > to "Ji Jang Bosal" (the Korean version of Kshitigarbha Bodhisattva). > > - Curt > > Mike Austin wrote: > > > There are several texts in the Tibetan tradition(s) that describe the > > process of death. Are there any other references - particularly > > earlier ones? > > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From libris at singnet.com.sg Sun Nov 20 20:59:05 2005 From: libris at singnet.com.sg (Piya Tan) Date: Sun Nov 20 21:00:07 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com><20051117032132.36877.qmail@web3 4109.mail.mud.yahoo.com><7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com><1 132327778.4539.7.camel@localhost.localdomain><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9 EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu><1132338831.6240.24.camel@local host.localdomain> <002f01c5ec86$0a1f8da0$ef414e51@zen> <2DD7274D-58E3-11DA-B4C1-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> <1132412105.437f3cc96e089@discus.singnet.com.sg> Message-ID: <43814609.74209C20@singnet.com.sg> Dear James. James Ward wrote: > I'm glad the links were of some help. (I should have mentioned that > the Mahavastu file is about 2 megabytes, so that some could be > forewarned.) I found that converting it into pdf and then saving it preserves its original format, but I also downloaded the html version for easier cut and paste. Thankfully, 3 mb is not too big for my slow connection. > The Catusparisatsutra seems to _almost_ be online -- see the "Sanskrit > Buddhist Canon Input" section of the website of the Nagarjuna Institute > of Exact Methods > > http://www.nagarjunainstitute.com/ What a happy surprise! Prof. Lancaster (my professor when I was visiting scholar in Berkeley) is the coordinator and the sponsor is the University of the West (previously Hsilai Univ) where he is president. This is a good time to say hello again after so long. You are right, Catusparisat Sutra is announced as completed on the site, but not found in the download section. > I think I will try to > obtain this through interlibrary loan (thanks for the idea!), so let me > know if you have difficulties finding it or the electronic copy above, > and maybe I can send it, assuming it is available (and depending on how > large it is! but the Sanskrit text alone should be short enough, > regardless). > Thanks for this info. yes this would be a great Dharma gift for text-deprived Singapore. Apparently, I have more Pali texts (almost all the PTS eds) in my house than the Buddhst Library here in Singapore has. Sadly it is very difficult to find those rare old publications like Waldschmidt's editions. Thanks again & sukhi Piya From libris at singnet.com.sg Sun Nov 20 21:02:46 2005 From: libris at singnet.com.sg (Piya Tan) Date: Sun Nov 20 21:10:06 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Sanskrit speaking Buddha References: <200511161900.jAGJ0JK6007997@ns1.swcp.com><20051117032132.36877.qmail@web3 4109.mail.mud.yahoo.com><7.0.0.10.2.20051117010430.00adc9e8@mailbag.com><1 132327778.4539.7.camel@localhost.localdomain><0AA38D9E66B59D4B8EB25114CCA9 EB7E010877CC@NWS-EXCH1.nws.oregonstate.edu><1132338831.6240.24.camel@local host.localdomain> <002f01c5ec86$0a1f8da0$ef414e51@zen> <2DD7274D-58E3-11DA-B4C1-00039347DCC6@earthlink.net> <1132412105.437f3cc96e089@discus.singnet.com.sg> <5ee7c3174baacf14177fbd0cc5867b9c@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <438146E6.C07D04D7@singnet.com.sg> Thanks, Joel! Every morsel of Sutra info helps in text-challenged Singapore. I hope our national library system will soon have your Divyavadana translation. Subham astu Piya Joel Tatelman wrote: > Piya, > > In case it's any help, the Sanskrit text of the Catu.spari.satsuutra > occurs in the Muulasarvaastivaada Vinaya. It is printed in the sections > of that Vinaya edited and published by R. Gnoli (Rome, 1977-78). > > An English translation was published by Ria Kloppenberg (burg?), but > I'm not sure if hers is based on Waldschmidt's edition or Gnoli's. > > Sorry I don't have full bibliographical references: I don't have access > to any suitably stocked library. > > Hope this helps, > > Joel Tatelman. > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From vicen.bcn at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 21:55:06 2005 From: vicen.bcn at gmail.com (Vicente Gonzalez) Date: Sun Nov 20 22:00:05 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] The process of death In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <723964140.20051121055506@gmail.com> Mike Austin wrote: MA> There are several texts in the Tibetan tradition(s) that describe the MA> process of death. Are there any other references - particularly earlier MA> ones? A main work is the Shalistamba Sutra, which was very influential in many people as Candrakirti, Shantideva, Yashomitra and Kamalasila. It is devoted to explain the rebirth process according dependent origination. There are English translations from Sanskrit and Tibetan "The Salistamba Sutra and its Indian commentaries"(Schoening) is the best. If I'm right, there is another English translation (Ross-Neat). Both are available in Indian publishers as Motilal Barnasidass so not problem to get it. The interest point in this Sutra is the combined explanation of dependent origination in two ways: causal and conditional. Despite it is a mahayana text, however, De la Valle Pousin strangely wrote that this work was not properly of the Great Vehicle, without more arguments.(?) Another work is the Bhavansankranti Sutra (aryabhavansankrantinamahayanasutra). It is devoted to explain the process of rebirth in a short way. There are two versions, one of them atributed to Nagarjuna. This attribution it's not clear but probably was an attempt to conciliate madhyamaka and rebirth. This Sutra arises by the question of knowing how the actions performed when we are alive they can appear in the moment of death. I have an Spanish translation but I don't know if there are English ones. Both Sutras are explanations of rebirth avoiding a permanent self so they are very interesting. br, From selwyn at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 21 03:13:22 2005 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Mon Nov 21 03:20:09 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lance's Remarks on Attan.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brad, If we are talking about the Pali Canon as a whole, then we can certainly distinguish some late material: the latest material: From the Khuddakanikaaya, the Apadaana, Buddhava.msa and Cariyaapi.taka - three works which the commentaries tell us were not accepted by all. From the Vinaya, the Parivaara. From the Abhidhamma, the last additions to the Kathaavatthu. It is hard to give these an absolute (as opposed to a relative) dating. It is clear that they belong somewhere in the period from the second century B.C. to the second century A.D. I personally would think of around the first century B.C. but my views could easily change if we got some solid evidence ! the later material: From the Khuddakanikaaya, Petavatthu and Vimaanavatthu From the Abhidhamma, Pa.t.thaana and Yamaka, much or all of the rest of the Kathaavatthu From the Vinaya, the Khandhakas The Niddesa and Pa.tisambhidaamagga (date very disputed) presumably belong to one of these two periods. Scholarship certainly (for me) convincingly separates out these as later strata. I am not myself convinced that we can separate out layers in the remaining period. Many scholars think they can. Part of the problem is that we do not know what was there before the Buddha and we know particularly little of the situation in Eastern India before the Mauryan period. Much of what I said before in my summary was derived as much from conversations with different scholars at conferences and elsewhere as from published material. European scholars who have recently proposed different kinds of laying would include Lambert Schmithausen, Tilman Vetter, Johannes Bronkhorst, Konrad Meisig and Richard Gombrich. There are many incidental references in monographs and articles by other scholars. Does that make my position sufficiently clear ? Lance >Brad now replies: > >Oh yes, I'm aware of the important works on anatta/anatman. What I >was inquiring about had to do with an observation I thought you made >(I may have misunderstood you here) about scholarship that >convincingly separates supposedly early from supposedly later strata >of the "Pali canon." If you indeed were implying this, I'd love to >see references on that topic, but of course would understand if the >spirit that might move you to do this is currently in remission... From joy.vriens at nerim.net Mon Nov 21 06:30:54 2005 From: joy.vriens at nerim.net (Joy Vriens) Date: Mon Nov 21 06:40:13 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism and History In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4381CC0E.8070408@nerim.net> Hi Brad, > This may be an interesting "real politik" move by the Dalai Lama, > following last week's meeting with Bush, in which Bush promised to bring > the DL's ideas for Tibetan autonomy to the Chinese. At least this is > what the DL said Bush promised, during an interview with PBS' Charlie > Rose. I think you are right. Apparently that is what Bush has done. I read in Le Monde that Bush assisted at a Protestant service in China and has asked the Chinese leader to respect freedom of religion and to invite members of the Vatican and HHDL in China. From mike at lamrim.org.uk Mon Nov 21 08:03:24 2005 From: mike at lamrim.org.uk (Mike Austin) Date: Mon Nov 21 08:10:13 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism and History In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1d9XcTG8GegDFwQM@clara.net> In message , bclough writes >This may be an interesting "real politik" move by the Dalai Lama, >following last week's meeting with Bush, in which Bush promised to >bring the DL's ideas for Tibetan autonomy to the Chinese. At least this >is what the DL said Bush promised, during an interview with PBS' >Charlie Rose. But it seems that the DL may be contradicting himself a >bit, given that he said quite unequivocally in the interview with Rose >that in today's world war was not the solution to any problem. I don't know what "real politik" is. Is it treating issues in a way that helps as many beings as possible? -- Metta Mike Austin From bclough at aucegypt.edu Mon Nov 21 08:57:45 2005 From: bclough at aucegypt.edu (bclough) Date: Mon Nov 21 09:00:17 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Lance's Remarks on Attan.com Message-ID: Lance Cousins: > If we are talking about the Pali Canon as a whole, then we can > certainly distinguish some late material... > Does that make my position sufficiently clear ? Abundantly clear, Lance, and thank you very much for taking the time to write a detailed synopsis that I certainly found very helpful, and I suspect others did too. Best Wishes, Brad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051121/ff320d74/attachment.html From bclough at aucegypt.edu Mon Nov 21 09:31:14 2005 From: bclough at aucegypt.edu (bclough) Date: Mon Nov 21 09:40:17 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism and History Message-ID: > I don't know what "real politik" is. Is it treating issues in a way that > helps as many beings as possible? I'm not certain if you are joshing a bit here or asking a genuine question, Mike, and I don't want to assume either, so forgive me if a I give a straight answer about a word that you may know well. "Realpolitik" comes from the German for "actual politics," and I suppose it might be defined as politics based primarily on practical and material factors rather than on theoretical or ethical objectives. You may well be right that what the Dalai Lama is trying now could turn out to be of the most benefit. Dare I say "time will tell"??? Best, Brad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051121/6baacca5/attachment.htm From curt at cola.iges.org Mon Nov 21 10:29:15 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Mon Nov 21 10:30:16 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism and History In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438203EB.1090802@cola.iges.org> Someone once said that "politics is the art of the possible". V.I. Lenin once said "we must make a revolution with people as they are now." He was arguing against the idea that Russia first had to go through a long period of democratic constitutional capitalism - like the most "advanced" countries of western europe and america. But Lenin said "nyet". This was the moment when Trotsky decided to join forces with Lenin, because Lenin's formulation coincided neatly with Trotsky's idea of "permanent revolution". Although Lenin and Trotsky might appear to have been engaging in the political equivalent of "subitism", they at least claimed that their feet were still firmly planted on the ground. Some people argue that just people things didn't turn out like they planned, that they were dead wrong - but that argument is completely lacking in imagination, in my opinion, because it assumes a kind of historical inevitablism that even a Marxist would disown. Oooops - sorry for the tangent. Anyway - all politics is "realpolitiks", in my opinion. Obviously the Dalai Lama is walking on tip toes through the mindfield (sic) of international diplomacy. Diplomacy is even more "real" than politics, btw. I think it was Winston Churchill who said that Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" in a calm soothing voice, while at the same time looking for a rock. I don't think HHDL should be criticized for taking political realities into consideration - but I do think he leaves himself open to criticism on the question of how far he's willing to go in bowing to the sensitivities of his politically conservative "allies". Just as he is open to criticism about how far he's willing to go in bowing to the sensitivities of his culturally liberal new-agey "allies". And, not to beat a dead horse, just as he is open to criticism about how far he is willing to go in bowing to the sensitivities of culturally "traditionalist" Tibetans (who don't like homosexuality or women's lib or beatnik poetry, for instance). I don't envy His Holiness the job of balancing all of those considerations and many more to boot. - Curt bclough wrote: > > I don't know what "real politik" is. Is it treating issues in a way > that > > helps as many beings as possible? > > I'm not certain if you are joshing a bit here or asking a genuine > question, Mike, and I don't want to assume either, so forgive me if a > I give a straight answer about a word that you may know well. > "Realpolitik" comes from the German for "actual politics," and I > suppose it might be defined as politics based primarily on practical > and material factors rather than on theoretical or ethical objectives. > > You may well be right that what the Dalai Lama is trying now could > turn out to be of the most benefit. > > Dare I say "time will tell"??? > > Best, > Brad > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > From dante at interport.net Mon Nov 21 12:29:43 2005 From: dante at interport.net (Dante Rosati) Date: Mon Nov 21 12:30:17 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pilgrims flock to see 'Buddha boy' said to have fasted six months In-Reply-To: <004d01c5d4e0$aa011e50$6402a8c0@gatewaycompute> Message-ID: http://tinyurl.com/8h4nh From chanfu at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 14:24:25 2005 From: chanfu at gmail.com (Chan Fu) Date: Mon Nov 21 14:30:18 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pilgrims flock to see 'Buddha boy' said to have fasted six months In-Reply-To: References: <004d01c5d4e0$aa011e50$6402a8c0@gatewaycompute> Message-ID: On 11/21/05, Dante Rosati wrote: > http://tinyurl.com/8h4nh > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l I found this part of that article particularily appropriate: "A fence was built around Ram's tree to prevent pilgrims prodding him, then a second, and now a third is planned, as well as a bus park, leaving Ram at the centre of an ever growing circle of rubbish." From s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk Mon Nov 21 14:59:20 2005 From: s.hodge at padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon Nov 21 16:50:20 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhism and History References: <438203EB.1090802@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <000201c5eef5$9a51fdb0$127b4e51@zen> Curt wrote: > I think it was Winston Churchill who said > that Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" in a calm soothing > voice, while at the same time looking for a rock. There is also the adage that "diplomacy is a cough and a lie". Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg Mon Nov 21 19:36:40 2005 From: wongwf at comp.nus.edu.sg (Wong Weng Fai) Date: Mon Nov 21 19:40:22 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pilgrims flock to see 'Buddha boy' said to have fasted six months In-Reply-To: References: <004d01c5d4e0$aa011e50$6402a8c0@gatewaycompute> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Nov 2005, Chan Fu wrote: > I found this part of that article particularily appropriate: > > "A fence was built around Ram's tree to prevent pilgrims prodding him, > then a second, and now a third is planned, as well as a bus park, > leaving Ram at the centre of an ever growing circle of rubbish." What about security concerns? More so than terrorists, one has to watch out for Zen masters who have vowed to kill every Buddha they meet on the road. W.F. Wong From junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu Tue Nov 22 11:55:22 2005 From: junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu (Peter D. Junger) Date: Tue Nov 22 12:00:40 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jodo Shin Shu and thanksgiving Message-ID: <200511221855.jAMItMv0020203@samsara.law.cwru.edu> I've started up my blog again at and some of the entries relate to matters within the jurisdiction of Buddha-Hell. Here is one about Jodo Shinshu Buddhism---a subject that seems to be greatly ignored on this list---and thanksgiving, a talk that I gave at an "interfaith service" about thanksgiving As I understand it, my charge here this afternoon is to read or recite some passage from the literature of my school of Buddhism, which is Jodo Shin Shu---the True School of the Pure Land---, which is the tradition of the Cleveland Buddhist Temple. So here goes: NAMO AMIDA BUTSU. NAMO AMIDA BUTSU. NAMO AMIDA BUTSU. Of course, since I recited that in my approximation of the Japanese pronunciation of a Sanskrit phrase, I suppose that I owe you some sort of explanation. So here it is. There are many different schools of Buddhism, perhaps as many schools as there are Buddhists, for there is nothing that one is required to believe to be a Buddhist and each of us can only follow our own path. But one thing that almost all Buddhists have in common is that they have many reasons for giving thanks. Giving thanks is a basic part of Buddhist practices: thanks to our parents, thanks to our friends, thanks to the lunch we ate today, thanks to things just as they are, and especially thanks to the Buddha for the Buddha's teachings. Now the central teachings of the Buddha are that all things are impermanent, that all things are interdependent, and that no thing, no person, has an independent essence---that no person has an independent self. The Buddha teaches us that as a result of these truths that anyone---and that means every one of us---who clings to impermanent things, and especially to the idea that one has an independent self, is going to be disappointed and unhappy. And finally the Buddha teaches that, if you don't want to be unhappy, then you are going to have to truly get rid of the ignorant belief that you have a separate self that exists somehow apart from that of others. And, of course, since that means that you must recognize the fact that you are inextricably interconnected with others, it requires that you not only want to attain your own happiness but that you want all beings to be happy. And so the goal of all Buddhist practices is to attain wisdom and compassion. The wisdom to free oneself from the fetters of one's ignorance and greed and the compassion to wish that same freedom for all others. But Shin Buddhists like myself, ordinary ignorant people filled with blind passions, have to recognize that we simply lack the capacity to free ourselves from the bonds of our ignorance and greed. Now the usual translation of NAMO AMIDA BUTSU is: ``I am one with Amida Buddha---I am one with the Buddha of Infinite Light and Life---I am one with the infinite wisdom and compassion that surrounds me.'' But for an ignorant person like myself it is more likely at first to be a cry of existential despair. We are, however, taught in the Shin tradition that if we listen carefully to NAMO AMIDA BUTSU we will hear Amida Buddha calling us to entrust ourselves to the wisdom and compassion that surrounds us. And when we truly hear that call, then NAMO AMIDA BUTSU becomes: ``Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.'' Every day becomes a day of thanksgiving. Every moment becomes an eternity of thanksgiving. NAMO AMIDA BUTSU. NAMO AMIDA BUTSU. NAMO AMIDA BUTSU. -- Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu URL: http://samsara.law.cwru.edu From chanfu at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 14:15:07 2005 From: chanfu at gmail.com (Chan Fu) Date: Tue Nov 22 14:20:37 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Pilgrims flock to see 'Buddha boy' said to have fasted six months In-Reply-To: References: <004d01c5d4e0$aa011e50$6402a8c0@gatewaycompute> Message-ID: On 11/21/05, Wong Weng Fai wrote: > > > On Mon, 21 Nov 2005, Chan Fu wrote: > > > I found this part of that article particularily appropriate: > > > > "A fence was built around Ram's tree to prevent pilgrims prodding him, > > then a second, and now a third is planned, as well as a bus park, > > leaving Ram at the centre of an ever growing circle of rubbish." > > What about security concerns? More so than terrorists, one has to watch > out for Zen masters who have vowed to kill every Buddha they meet on the > road. > > W.F. Wong No worries - they'd have to find The Path through all that rubbish, first. I'm hoping he gets his own TV channel, so we can watch him when he starts to glow in the dark and levitate - mebbe in year 3... From parisjm2004 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 22 15:22:45 2005 From: parisjm2004 at yahoo.com (Michael Paris) Date: Tue Nov 22 15:30:41 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Jodo Shin Shu and thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <200511221855.jAMItMv0020203@samsara.law.cwru.edu> Message-ID: <20051122222245.93424.qmail@web32613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I look forward to reading it. Indeed. I particularly like Jodo ShinShu. Even on the Yahoo lists discussions are uncommon. At least I finally found a reliable source of JSS books. They're not avaiable (new at least) through Amazon, etc. Thanks for the post, Peter. --Michael --- "Peter D. Junger" wrote: > > I've started up my blog again at > and some of the entries relate to matters within the jurisdiction of > Buddha-Hell. > > Here is one about Jodo Shinshu Buddhism---a subject that seems to > be greatly ignored on this list---and thanksgiving, a talk that I > gave at an "interfaith service" about thanksgiving > [snip] __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From parisjm2004 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 22 16:19:59 2005 From: parisjm2004 at yahoo.com (Michael Paris) Date: Tue Nov 22 16:20:38 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Request for comments on Chan books by Peter D. Hershock In-Reply-To: <200511221855.jAMItMv0020203@samsara.law.cwru.edu> Message-ID: <20051122231959.68261.qmail@web32604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >From amazon.com: Chan Buddhism (Dimensions of Asian Spirituality) Liberating Intimacy: Enlightenment and Social Virtuosity in Ch'an Buddhism (SUNY Series in Chinese Philosophy and Culture) Both are by Peter D. Hershock. There's only an editorial review on the first, none at all for the second. Could anyone offer an opinion on either or both? Thanks, --Michael __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu Thu Nov 24 10:09:36 2005 From: dlusthau at mailer.fsu.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu Nov 24 10:11:13 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] sound therapy References: Message-ID: <01ca01c5f119$dc8fb890$831b9c04@Dan> Not up on the latest fad? Check out http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/24/fashion/thursdaystyles/24sounders.html?8hpib=&pagewanted=all {from the article} ... For decades people have relaxed and meditated to soothing sounds, including recordings of waves lapping, desktop waterfalls and wind chimes. Lately a new kind of sound therapy, often called sound healing, has begun to attract a following. Also known as vibrational medicine, the practice employs the vibrations of the human voice as well as objects that resonate - tuning forks, gongs, Tibetan singing bowls - to go beyond relaxation and stimulate healing. "It's like meditation was 20 years ago and yoga was 10 to 15 years ago," said Amrita Cottrell, the founder and director of the Healing Music Organization in Santa Cruz, Calif., and the leader of the class that Ms. Harada attended.... {end quote} Namu Amu Humming... Dan Lusthaus From marshallarts at bigpond.com Sun Nov 27 16:31:24 2005 From: marshallarts at bigpond.com (Kate) Date: Sun Nov 27 16:42:17 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Monks in Malls Message-ID: <001801c5f3aa$aeb34020$6900a8c0@vic.bigpond.net.au> In case you haven't seen it! Regards Kate http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200511/s1517501.htm MONKS TO RENT MALL SPACE IN THAILAND In between buying handbags or browsing the jewellery counters, shoppers in Thailand will soon also be able to get their daily dose of dharma under a plan to install monks in major department stores. Under the "meet the monk in a quiet corner" project, the Ministry of Culture plans to rent out space in stores throughout the country where shoppers can have a quiet chat with clergy in a bid to bring people closer to religion, officials said. "People nowadays have no time to go to temples, only shopping malls. They can get closer to the religion if we provide the opportunity," culture minister Uraiwan Thienthong was quoted as saying by local media. Shoppers will be encouraged to participate in religious activities, and films or religious-themed comics will be available to attract younger participants. "We could campaign for religion in places where ... teenagers gather," said Wattana Muangsuk, minister for social development, on Saturday. Outspoken monk Phra Phayom Kalayano of Nonthaburi's Wat Suan Kaew, on the outskirts of Bangkok, seconded the plan, saying he would encourage monks to go every day to attend to the masses at the malls. -AFP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051128/f2905a4a/attachment.htm From libris at singnet.com.sg Sun Nov 27 19:37:38 2005 From: libris at singnet.com.sg (libris) Date: Sun Nov 27 19:42:16 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Monks in Malls In-Reply-To: <001801c5f3aa$aeb34020$6900a8c0@vic.bigpond.net.au> References: <001801c5f3aa$aeb34020$6900a8c0@vic.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <1133145458.438a6d721577c@discus.singnet.com.sg> At last, monks are going to the malls for the right reason. VIP monks in shopping malls are not an uncommon feature in Singapore, where a "poor monastic" is an oxymoron :) May we be happy Piya --- Kate wrote: > In case you haven't seen it! > > Regards > Kate > > > http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200511/s1517501.htm > > MONKS TO RENT MALL SPACE IN THAILAND > In between buying handbags or browsing the jewellery counters, > shoppers in Thailand will soon also be able to get their daily dose > of dharma under a plan to install monks in major department stores. > > > Under the "meet the monk in a quiet corner" project, the Ministry of > Culture plans to rent out space in stores throughout the country > where shoppers can have a quiet chat with clergy in a bid to bring > people closer to religion, officials said. > > "People nowadays have no time to go to temples, only shopping malls. > They can get closer to the religion if we provide the opportunity," > culture minister Uraiwan Thienthong was quoted as saying by local > media. > > Shoppers will be encouraged to participate in religious activities, > and films or religious-themed comics will be available to attract > younger participants. > > "We could campaign for religion in places where ... teenagers > gather," said Wattana Muangsuk, minister for social development, on > Saturday. > > Outspoken monk Phra Phayom Kalayano of Nonthaburi's Wat Suan Kaew, > on the outskirts of Bangkok, seconded the plan, saying he would > encourage monks to go every day to attend to the masses at the > malls. > > -AFP > > From ellwbj at nus.edu.sg Mon Nov 28 18:00:22 2005 From: ellwbj at nus.edu.sg (John Whalen-Bridge) Date: Mon Nov 28 18:02:34 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] crazy wisdom Message-ID: I have a question for anyone familiar with Tibetan Buddhism. Was Trungpa's "Crazy Wisdom" dharma his own invention? Clearly one could look to the Marpa/Milarepa relationship and say, in a vague way, that there is a precededent for unorthodox teaching methods. But in terms of drinking and smoking and having vajra guards? I'm not asking "Did it happen?" but rather, "Is such 'Crazy Wisdom', as some of Trungpa's students will claim, a respected/recognized tradition? Whether or not such methods were skillful is another matter, but I'm hoping to have a better sense of whether or not the "lineage" was, as I suspect, invented to suit 1970s Americans. Ditto Shambala Training. All best, John Whalen-Bridge From rhayes at unm.edu Mon Nov 28 21:46:04 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Mon Nov 28 21:52:39 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] crazy wisdom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1133239564.4611.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-11-29 at 09:00 +0800, John Whalen-Bridge wrote: > I'm not asking "Did it happen?" but rather, "Is such 'Crazy Wisdom', > as some of Trungpa's students will claim, a respected/recognized > tradition? Whether or not such methods were skillful is another > matter, but I'm hoping to have a better sense of whether or not the > "lineage" was, as I suspect, invented to suit 1970s Americans. I have no idea what the answer to your question is (and I look forward to hearing from someone who does know), but I am reminded of a great line by Samu Sunim, who once described Chogyam Trungpa as the only Buddhist teacher wild enough to tame Americans. -- Richard From selwyn at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 28 22:56:36 2005 From: selwyn at ntlworld.com (L.S. Cousins) Date: Tue Nov 29 00:02:45 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] crazy wisdom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For the record, I recall Trungpa in the latter part of the 60s, referring to a teacher who had used alcohol successfully, although his chief pupil (using the same method) went mad. This was in response to a question about drugs and meditation. Whether or how far it has antecedents in Tibetan tradition I could not say, but I suspect that Trungpa was already thinking in these terms in India before he came to Britain. It was his fluency in English which was much improved by the time he went to America. Lance Cousins >I have a question for anyone familiar with Tibetan Buddhism. Was >Trungpa's "Crazy Wisdom" dharma his own invention? Clearly one >could look to the Marpa/Milarepa relationship and say, in a vague >way, that there is a precededent for unorthodox teaching methods. >But in terms of drinking and smoking and having vajra guards? I'm >not asking "Did it happen?" but rather, "Is such 'Crazy Wisdom', as >some of Trungpa's students will claim, a respected/recognized >tradition? Whether or not such methods were skillful is another >matter, but I'm hoping to have a better sense of whether or not the >"lineage" was, as I suspect, invented to suit 1970s Americans. > >Ditto Shambala Training. > >All best, John Whalen-Bridge From andy.ward at ihug.co.nz Mon Nov 28 23:48:03 2005 From: andy.ward at ihug.co.nz (Andrew Ward) Date: Tue Nov 29 08:13:16 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Identity and Non Identity Message-ID: <438BF9A3.1040706@ihug.co.nz> I sent this email a couple of days ago, but it did not come back to me as part of the mailing list, so I am re-sending it now. Please ignore the email if it has already reached the mailing list. Hello, I was interested if anyone knew where in the Tipitaka (if anywhere) the basis for Paul Carus' "Identity and Non Identity" chapter of his book "The Gospel of the Buddha" came from. The chapter can be seen at the following web address: http://reluctant-messenger.com/gospel_buddha/chapter_53.htm From brburl at mailbag.com Tue Nov 29 15:08:37 2005 From: brburl at mailbag.com (Bruce Burrill) Date: Tue Nov 29 15:12:51 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Identity and Non Identity In-Reply-To: <438BF9A3.1040706@ihug.co.nz> References: <438BF9A3.1040706@ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: <7.0.0.10.2.20051129160651.04ded4b8@mailbag.com> At 12:48 AM 11/29/2005, you wrote: >I was interested if anyone knew where in the Tipitaka (if anywhere) the >basis for Paul Carus' "Identity and Non Identity" chapter of his book >"The Gospel of the Buddha" came from. Carus was not above reinterpreting things to fit his monist point of view. "The Gospel of the Buddha" is not a reliable source. From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Nov 29 15:44:22 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue Nov 29 15:52:53 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Identity and Non Identity In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.10.2.20051129160651.04ded4b8@mailbag.com> References: <438BF9A3.1040706@ihug.co.nz> <7.0.0.10.2.20051129160651.04ded4b8@mailbag.com> Message-ID: <1133304262.4786.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-11-29 at 16:08 -0600, Bruce Burrill wrote: > "The Gospel of the Buddha" is not a reliable source. It's a reliable source on the thought of Paul Carus, who was actually a fairly interesting figure. He was not the first to bend Buddhism to suit his emotional needs and intellectual commitments, and he may not be the last. At times I find the benders more insightful than the plodding documenters. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From andy.ward at ihug.co.nz Tue Nov 29 16:37:44 2005 From: andy.ward at ihug.co.nz (Andrew Ward) Date: Tue Nov 29 16:42:53 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Identity and Non Identity In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.10.2.20051129160651.04ded4b8@mailbag.com> References: <438BF9A3.1040706@ihug.co.nz> <7.0.0.10.2.20051129160651.04ded4b8@mailbag.com> Message-ID: <438CE648.10507@ihug.co.nz> Bruce Burrill wrote: > At 12:48 AM 11/29/2005, you wrote: > >> I was interested if anyone knew where in the Tipitaka (if anywhere) the >> basis for Paul Carus' "Identity and Non Identity" chapter of his book >> "The Gospel of the Buddha" came from. > > > Carus was not above reinterpreting things to fit his monist point of > view. "The Gospel of the Buddha" is not a reliable source. > So the chapter linked to in the original post is not based on any particular sutta? From bsimon at toad.net Tue Nov 29 18:15:05 2005 From: bsimon at toad.net (Bernie Simon) Date: Tue Nov 29 18:22:56 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: crazy wisdom In-Reply-To: <200511291900.jATJ0qVM029281@ns1.swcp.com> References: <200511291900.jATJ0qVM029281@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: On Nov 29, 2005, at 2:00 PM, "John Whalen-Bridge" wrote: > I have a question for anyone familiar with Tibetan Buddhism. Was > Trungpa's "Crazy Wisdom" dharma his own invention? Clearly one could > look to the Marpa/Milarepa relationship and say, in a vague way, that > there is a precededent for unorthodox teaching methods. There's ample precedent for crazy behavior in the lives of the eighty four mahasiddhas. Closer to the present time, Khenpo Gangshar, one of Chogyam Trungpa's teachers and a well known figure in Kham, was renowned or notorious (take your pick) for his crazy behavior. ---- And though I am nothing of a builder Here I dreamt I was an architect From slachs at att.net Tue Nov 29 18:42:04 2005 From: slachs at att.net (Stuart Lachs) Date: Tue Nov 29 18:43:02 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] crazy wisdom References: Message-ID: <002601c5f54f$45173ee0$6601a8c0@nyc.rr.com> Lance wrote: > For the record, I recall Trungpa in the latter part of the 60s, > referring to a teacher who had used alcohol successfully, although > his chief pupil (using the same method) went mad. This was in > response to a question about drugs and meditation. Trungpa may have used alcohol successfully in the '60s, but I believe in the '80s he crashed his car into a telephone pole while driving drunk at high speed and never really recovered. There is also the well-known "Naropa poetry war" that took place at their Boulder Center during Shambala training. The well known poet W.S. Merwin and his girlfriend, refused Trungpa'a invitation to join a drunken party by barracading themsleves in their room. When Trungpa's guards finally broke in, Merwin cut one guard in the face with a broken bottle. Trungpa being quite drunk had Merwin's Japanese girlfriend forcibly dragged down from their room and stripped by his "guards" before a large crowd. Trungpa came on to her using racial language to try and separate her from Merwin. There is a pamphlet describing the affair. I think one should also consider Trungpa's choice of heir and what he taught or transmitted to him. His heir to the throne, Osel Tendzin, a guy from New Jersey, took what I assume, Trungpa had transmitted to him, at face value. Tendzin acted like spoiled entitled royalty complete with servants and unreasonable demands. Tendzin knew he had AIDS, but continued to have unprotected sex with both male and female students. I believe at least one person became infected with AIDS from this. When later questioned about this, Tendzin replied that he thought the dakinis would protect people. Traditions stressing wisdom like some forms of Tibetan Budd. and Chan/ Zen talk of "crazy wisdom." It is however, a large hole through which just about anything can pass. It certainly should be viewed with extreme caution. For example, what an outsider might call self serving or just plain crazy, adoring students often dub as "crazy wisdom." There is a long history of this in American Buddhism. Stuart > Lance Cousins > > > >I have a question for anyone familiar with Tibetan Buddhism. Was > >Trungpa's "Crazy Wisdom" dharma his own invention? Clearly one > >could look to the Marpa/Milarepa relationship and say, in a vague > >way, that there is a precededent for unorthodox teaching methods. > >But in terms of drinking and smoking and having vajra guards? I'm > >not asking "Did it happen?" but rather, "Is such 'Crazy Wisdom', as > >some of Trungpa's students will claim, a respected/recognized > >tradition? Whether or not such methods were skillful is another > >matter, but I'm hoping to have a better sense of whether or not the > >"lineage" was, as I suspect, invented to suit 1970s Americans. > > > >Ditto Shambala Training. > > > >All best, John Whalen-Bridge > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From curt at cola.iges.org Tue Nov 29 18:56:06 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Tue Nov 29 19:02:57 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] crazy wisdom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438D06B6.6040201@cola.iges.org> There is an interesting figure in modern Korean Buddhism that provides a counter-example to the claim that there was something unique, or uniquely "Tibetan", in Trunpa Rinpoche - or that his "craziness" was a response to, or adaptation to, western culture. His name was Ko Bong Sunim - he was known for his long hair and beard and for his fondness for sake and also for smoking tobacco (monks are supposed to keep head an face shaved and abstain from alcohol and tobacco). He also refused to wear traditional grey monks robes and instead insisted on dressing in white (which is associated with Shamanism in Korea, not Buddhism). He also refused, with one notable exception, to accept monks as his students - he would only take on nuns and lay people (the vast majority of his students were nuns). The general rule, to this day, is for Korean Zen Masters to only teach monks. To my knowledge there are no stories about his engaging in sexual activity - but otherwise he "fits" the model. He was grudgingly accepted, as well as feared, as a Zen Master within the Korean Chogye order - he was given transmission by the universally respected (and extremely respectable) Man Gong Sunim. Ko Bong's principle Dharma Heir was Zen Master Seung Sahn, who was the one exception he made for a monk. There is a monument to Ko Bong on the grounds of Hwa Gye Sah Temple on the outskirts of Seoul - it is a huge sculpture in the shape of a perfect sphere. Ko Bong developed his "style" of teaching during the 30's and 40's (maybe even earlier) - a time when there was little if any "western" influence on Korean Buddhism - or vice versa. - Curt John Whalen-Bridge wrote: >I have a question for anyone familiar with Tibetan Buddhism. Was Trungpa's "Crazy Wisdom" dharma his own invention? Clearly one could look to the Marpa/Milarepa relationship and say, in a vague way, that there is a precededent for unorthodox teaching methods. But in terms of drinking and smoking and having vajra guards? I'm not asking "Did it happen?" but rather, "Is such 'Crazy Wisdom', as some of Trungpa's students will claim, a respected/recognized tradition? Whether or not such methods were skillful is another matter, but I'm hoping to have a better sense of whether or not the "lineage" was, as I suspect, invented to suit 1970s Americans. > >Ditto Shambala Training. > >All best, John Whalen-Bridge > >_______________________________________________ >buddha-l mailing list >buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com >http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l > > > > From rhayes at unm.edu Tue Nov 29 19:05:22 2005 From: rhayes at unm.edu (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue Nov 29 19:12:54 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: crazy wisdom In-Reply-To: <002601c5f54f$45173ee0$6601a8c0@nyc.rr.com> References: <002601c5f54f$45173ee0$6601a8c0@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: <1133316322.4431.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> What a strange, strange boy He still lives with his family Even the war and the navy couldn't bring him to maturity He keeps referring back to school days And clinging to his child Fidgeting and bullied His crazy wisdom holding onto something wild He asked me to be patient Well I failed "Grow up!" I cried And as, the smoke was clearing he said "Give me one good reason why!" What a strange, strange boy He sees the cars as sets of waves Sequences of mass and space He sees the damage in my face ---Joni Mitchell "Strange Boy" From brburl at mailbag.com Tue Nov 29 21:32:27 2005 From: brburl at mailbag.com (Bruce Burrill) Date: Tue Nov 29 21:32:58 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Identity and Non Identity In-Reply-To: <438CE648.10507@ihug.co.nz> References: <438BF9A3.1040706@ihug.co.nz> <7.0.0.10.2.20051129160651.04ded4b8@mailbag.com> <438CE648.10507@ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: <7.0.0.10.2.20051129222405.04deec60@mailbag.com> At 05:37 PM 11/29/2005, you wrote: >Bruce Burrill wrote: > >>At 12:48 AM 11/29/2005, you wrote: >> >>>I was interested if anyone knew where in the Tipitaka (if anywhere) the >>>basis for Paul Carus' "Identity and Non Identity" chapter of his book >>>"The Gospel of the Buddha" came from. >> >> >>Carus was not above reinterpreting things to fit his monist point >>of view. "The Gospel of the Buddha" is not a reliable source. >So the chapter linked to in the original post is not based on any >particular sutta? "Identity and Non Identity" is chapter LIII. In the print version there is an extensive "Table of Reference." which lists much of that chapter as coming from the "Questions of King Milinda," and "HM," "A Manual of Buddhism" by Spence Hardy, and Chinse text and Warren's "Buddhism in Translation." Again, this reflect Carus more than anything else. From ralf.steckel at online.ms Wed Nov 30 06:05:31 2005 From: ralf.steckel at online.ms (ralf.steckel@online.ms) Date: Wed Nov 30 08:41:27 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] crazy wisdom Message-ID: <252779316@web.de> -begin snip > I have no idea what the answer to your question is (and I look forward > to hearing from someone who does know), but I am reminded of a great > line by Samu Sunim, who once described Chogyam Trungpa as the only > Buddhist teacher wild enough to tame Americans. **** ******** > > -- > Richard -end snip Dear Richard, just my non-academical five cents to this topic... We in Germany are very grateful to the US Americans because they and the Allies did a great job by liberating Germany from the terror of the Nazi dictatorship. We are also very grateful to the US Americans because they brought back some joy of daily life for those Germans, who had to get their families through World War II. (sorry that i have to repeat the so often quoted sentence from the GIs who gave chewing gum and cigarettes and care packets to the German people in the post war area - but this is 'really' something that is *burned* in the common subconsciousness German people, who had the luck to grow up in the western half of post war Germany) I for myself have never been in the US so I'm not the one to give a comment about US American society today - i have only informations about the contemporary US by more or less good authority from some members of my family, friends and working colleagues, who have been there and 'serious' political magazines - if there still are any in Germany. Nevertheless a lot of todays German people are concerned about the rise of military, technical, social and information control world wide due to the tougher and tougher competition for enviromental, social and economical ressources world wide also and especially in the US. There may be a difference in the magnitude of the toughness of this competition in the US and in Europe. But the tendency to more social, political and economic control is the same in Europe and Germany. And although in Germany not only people sympathizing with the goals of the student movement of the Sixties but also very conservative people are concerned about the situation in the US there is in Germany still gratefullness to *all* Allies and the US Americans because they gave us the chance to establish some political, social and economic standards. Best whishes, Ralf PS: As an enthusiast of Agave plants -native mostly in Mexico and in the South of the US- I *really* would like to see the Agave collection of the Desert Botanical Garden in Phoenix, Arizona and that of the Huntington Botanical Garden. But as long as smoking in the US is valued almost as a crime against political and 'healthy' correctness, i keep on visiting European Agave collections. From ellwbj at nus.edu.sg Wed Nov 30 09:23:27 2005 From: ellwbj at nus.edu.sg (John Whalen-Bridge) Date: Wed Nov 30 09:33:06 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] crazy wisdom Message-ID: Hello all. Thanks for the postings on Crazy Wisdom. A few notes. Stuart mentioned a pamphlet. Tom Clark's NAROPA POETRY WARS is actually a handsome book and gives all the sordid details. I believe Merwin's girlfriend Naone was Hawaiian, though perhaps of Japanese descent. SHOES OUTSIDE THE DOOR washes the laundry for SF Zen Center. It's a gripping read. Many practitioners were drawn to Zen because they felt official values were empty in the worst sense, but the installation of gurus and abbots and so forth did not make all problems go away, especially when teachers used their authority not to correct the errors of mainstream culture but instead to become royalty, get sex, and exploit cheap labor (it was "practice") to get lots of money. All in the name of Crazy Wisdom, which bohemian Americans found delightful. The 84 mahasiddhis may be the best textual/traditional source of those mentioned. Eccentric behavior seems to be possible, and odd experimental practices are certainly more widely respected . Overall, the impression I get is that eccentricity and rather wild innovation can happen and can be regarded with respect, but that it stretches matters to refer to a "Crazy Wisdom Lineage." I heard an academic paper a few weeks ago about the "magical monks" of Thailand who will bless a pile of cash for you, or sell what they claim are the most effective amulets for big money. Foucault is quoted to argue that these monks are different but that it is hegemonic oppression to regard such differences as less authentic. A bit of Talal Asad sauce was poured on which gave the talk a fresh and zingy flavor...but on the whole I believed the meal was indigestible and that, on the whole, the line between tradition and abuse of tradition is not such a whoopy-doo Gordian aporia, if you will. (And if you won't, I take it back. With apologies before the community as required by the vinaya. For future volumes of our series-in-progress FINDING THE OX, Gary Storhoff and I would like to have some essays on various teachers (Suzuki, Aitken, Trungpa, Kalu Rinpoche, and so forth) that would steer a middle course between cheerleading and expose. If anyone has just the right author in mind for one of these essays, please contact me with details. Sincere thanks, JWB From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed Nov 30 11:14:05 2005 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed Nov 30 11:23:08 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] crazy wisdom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438DEBED.2050107@xs4all.nl> John Whalen-Bridge schreef: >Hello all. Thanks for the postings on Crazy Wisdom. A few notes. Stuart mentioned a pamphlet. Tom Clark's NAROPA POETRY WARS is actually a handsome book and gives all the sordid details. I believe Merwin's girlfriend Naone was Hawaiian, though perhaps of Japanese descent. SHOES OUTSIDE THE DOOR washes the laundry for SF Zen Center. It's a gripping read. Many practitioners were drawn to Zen because they felt official values were empty in the worst sense, but the installation of gurus and abbots and so forth did not make all problems go away, especially when teachers used their authority not to correct the errors of mainstream culture but instead to become royalty, get sex, and exploit cheap labor (it was "practice") to get lots of money. All in the name of Crazy Wisdom, which bohemian Americans found delightful. > >The 84 mahasiddhis may be the best textual/traditional source of those mentioned. Eccentric behavior seems to be possible, and odd experimental practices are certainly more widely respected . Overall, the impression I get is that eccentricity and rather wild innovation can happen and can be regarded with respect, but that it stretches matters to refer to a "Crazy Wisdom Lineage." > > > > It has been argued that many holy men and women would end up in houses with men dressed in white in our society these days. So crazy wisdom may not always be wise and indeed Foucault would argue that teh concept of crazy wisdom has been rejected by the west since the Middle Ages. A name that is worth mentioning is Drukpa Kunley, 'the divine madman'. -- Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms From franzmetcalf at earthlink.net Wed Nov 30 13:31:12 2005 From: franzmetcalf at earthlink.net (Franz Metcalf) Date: Wed Nov 30 13:33:12 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] crazy wisdom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John et al., Coincidentally, Stuart and I were just discussing the need for a volume to do for Zen Center of Los Angeles what _Shoes Outside the Door_ does for SFZC. But that's a crude instrument for understanding or assisting the development of the dharma in the West. What's needed is volumes like your _Finding the Ox_, at least way it sounded from the call for papers. How is the first volume coming together? But, as to your question of possible contributors on specific teachers/centers, I once put together a paper session on scandals in American Buddhism. Dan Capper presented a paper on Tibetan problems (not Trungpa, as I recall), Jason Siff presented on power issues in Vipassana meditation centers, and I discussed the two big affairs at ZCLA; John Coleman followed with an overview. This was seven or eight years ago, but we had good attendance (including the religion writer for the LA Times). I think there's an audience for this kind of exploration and there are scholars to do it. And, since I'm writing, let me chime in on the side of reason and agree with you that, Foucault be damned, it is not any kind of Western or academic hegemony to apply central and canonical Buddhist standards to Buddhist behavior. Sure, the forest monks in Thailand (and the "crazy wisdom" teachers of Tibet and the Chan/Son/Tien/Zen tradition) are "different." Stanley Tambiah wrote convincingly of the *need* for such difference in the Thai state and culture. I think we need it here, as well. Hey, we don't all just exude charisma; some of us have to buy it. But that is no excuse, by Thai tradition, Theravada tradition, Abrahamic tradition, scholarly tradition, etc., for anything like what some of these teachers do to their smitten students. It's not the difference between the charismatic periphery and the hierarchical center that makes one or the other less authentic; it's the difference between following the path and the vinaya and merely pretending to. Of course this judgment *does* express hegemony, but it's a Buddhist hegemony applied to Buddhist practice, and I hope even Foucault would have appreciated the need for that, from time to time. Peace, Franz Metcalf From eklektik at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 13:45:48 2005 From: eklektik at gmail.com (Hugo) Date: Wed Nov 30 13:53:16 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] crazy wisdom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7964f6db0511301245n5a923626q318e64b0b5a829b3@mail.gmail.com> >From the Vinaya, Sanghadisesa #4: 4. Should any bhikkhu, overcome by lust, with altered mind, speak in the presence of a woman in praise of ministering to his own sensuality thus: "This, sister, is the highest ministration, that of ministering to a virtuous, fine-natured follower of the celibate life such as myself with this act" ? alluding to sexual intercourse ? it entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. [...] "Giving," in the Buddha's time, was a common term for having sex. If a woman gave to a man, that meant that she was willing to have sexual intercourse with him. Now, Buddhism was not the only religion of the time to teach that gifts ? of a more innocent sort ? given to contemplatives produced great reward to those who gave them, and ultimately somebody somewhere came up with the bright idea that since sex was the highest gift, giving it to a contemplative would produce the highest reward. Whether this idea was first formulated by faithful women or by clever contemplatives is hard to say. There are several cases in the Vinita Vatthu to Parajika 1 telling of bhikkhus approached or attacked by women professing this belief, which shows that it had some currency: that sex was somehow seen as a way to higher benefits through the law of kamma. Since the preceding rule gives exemptions for bhikkhus speaking "aiming at (spiritual) welfare (attha), aiming at Dhamma," some misguided souls who did not comprehend the Buddha's teachings on sensuality might believe that welfare of this sort might fit under the exemption. Even today, although the rationale might be different, there are people who believe that having sex with spiritual teachers is beneficial for one's spiritual well-being. Thus we have this separate rule to show that the Buddha would have no part in such a notion, and that a bhikkhu who tries to suggest that his listener would benefit from having sex with him is not exempt from an offense. Source: http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc1/ch05.html -- Hugo From jehms at xs4all.nl Wed Nov 30 14:10:00 2005 From: jehms at xs4all.nl (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Wed Nov 30 14:13:09 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] crazy wisdom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438E1528.3010202@xs4all.nl> Franz Metcalf schreef: > > > Of course this judgment *does* express hegemony, but it's a Buddhist > hegemony applied to Buddhist practice, and I hope even Foucault would > have appreciated the need for that, from time to time. > > I'm quite sure of it, Franz. Foucault would say that power is productive, but he would be very interested in how normality is produced in these different cultures and how because of that abnormality arises. Subsequently he would try to find out how abnormality has been treated maybe in the east and in the west. If and how abnormality has been marginalized (this has certainly not been the case in Trungpa's circles). Being a follower of Nietzsche he would advice to turn ones life into a good example for others and stress the responsability one has. It is absolutely necessary to excercise power over oneself in order to make ones life into an the best example one can give. Maybe he would see in some of these mad yogis an example of parresia, the courage to be sincere and speak the truth in any situation. -- Erik www.xs4all.nl/~jehms From bsimon at toad.net Wed Nov 30 18:12:30 2005 From: bsimon at toad.net (Bernie Simon) Date: Wed Nov 30 18:13:12 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: crazy wisdom In-Reply-To: <200511301900.jAUJ0J0g019985@ns1.swcp.com> References: <200511301900.jAUJ0J0g019985@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: On Nov 30, 2005, at 2:00 PM, John Whalen-Bridge wrote: > Tom Clark's NAROPA POETRY WARS is actually a handsome book and gives > all the sordid details. My recollection is that Tom Clark's book has some inaccuracies. Ed Sander's book covered the same ground and was more carefully done. But since it was privately published, it's probably hard to come by. ---- One mistake after another is also true practice. (Dogen) From libris at singnet.com.sg Wed Nov 30 18:17:11 2005 From: libris at singnet.com.sg (Piya Tan) Date: Wed Nov 30 18:23:13 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] crazy wisdom References: <438DEBED.2050107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <438E4F17.87A75904@singnet.com.sg> Eric & Byuddha-lites, Two academic papers are especially healing readings: (1) Katy Butler, "Encountering he shadow in Buddhist America" (1991) In Meeting the Shadows ed J Abrams & C Zweig, 1991. (2) Stephen Butterfield, "Accusing the Tiger" In Tricycle, Summer 1992. I find "Prisoners of Shangri-la" very courageous and promising of a more mature Buddhism in the west and the world in general. Also Prisoners of Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism and the West, reviewed by Stephen Owen, "The New Republic" 219,6 August 10, 1998:38-41. On Sangharakshita, there is http://www.fwbo-files.com/ There is also an update by Yashomitra (2003). I have not kept up reading on the sociology of Buddhism, as I am currently distracted by Sutta work and comparative Buddhism. Thanks to all scholars of Buddhism for polishing the Dharma lamp. It has never been shinier. Sukhi Piya Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > John Whalen-Bridge schreef: > > >Hello all. Thanks for the postings on Crazy Wisdom. A few notes. Stuart mentioned a pamphlet. Tom Clark's NAROPA POETRY WARS is actually a handsome book and gives all the sordid details. I believe Merwin's girlfriend Naone was Hawaiian, though perhaps of Japanese descent. SHOES OUTSIDE THE DOOR washes the laundry for SF Zen Center. It's a gripping read. Many practitioners were drawn to Zen because they felt official values were empty in the worst sense, but the installation of gurus and abbots and so forth did not make all problems go away, especially when teachers used their authority not to correct the errors of mainstream culture but instead to become royalty, get sex, and exploit cheap labor (it was "practice") to get lots of money. All in the name of Crazy Wisdom, which bohemian Americans found delightful. > > > >The 84 mahasiddhis may be the best textual/traditional source of those mentioned. Eccentric behavior seems to be possible, and odd experimental practices are certainly more widely respected . Overall, the impression I get is that eccentricity and rather wild innovation can happen and can be regarded with respect, but that it stretches matters to refer to a "Crazy Wisdom Lineage." > > > > > > > > > It has been argued that many holy men and women would end up in houses > with men dressed in white in our society these days. So crazy wisdom may > not always be wise and indeed Foucault would argue that teh concept of > crazy wisdom has been rejected by the west since the Middle Ages. A name > that is worth mentioning is Drukpa Kunley, 'the divine madman'. > > -- > > Erik > > www.xs4all.nl/~jehms > > _______________________________________________ > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From bsimon at toad.net Wed Nov 30 18:34:21 2005 From: bsimon at toad.net (Bernie Simon) Date: Wed Nov 30 18:43:14 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist Manuscript Message-ID: Interesting. A birch bark manuscript from a Buddhist monastery, believed to have been written in the first or second century A.D., was recently acquired by the University of Washington Libraries and will become a key component of the Early Buddhist Manuscripts Project. ... The manuscript consists of eight fragments of a scroll and is written in the Gandhari language, a derivative of Sanskrit ... The UW manuscript comes from a branch of Buddhist scholastic literature known as abhidharma. ... This text is very exciting, because it is the earliest commentary that we've found. All other early texts have been extensively reworked. http://www.uwnews.org/article.asp?articleID=3487 ---- One mistake after another is also true practice. (Dogen) From curt at cola.iges.org Wed Nov 30 18:41:28 2005 From: curt at cola.iges.org (curt) Date: Wed Nov 30 18:43:16 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] crazy wisdom In-Reply-To: <002601c5f54f$45173ee0$6601a8c0@nyc.rr.com> References: <002601c5f54f$45173ee0$6601a8c0@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: <438E54C8.1050500@cola.iges.org> Stuart Lachs wrote: > >There is also the well-known "Naropa >poetry war" that took place at their Boulder Center during Shambala >training. The well known poet W.S. Merwin and his girlfriend, refused >Trungpa'a invitation to join a drunken party by barracading themsleves in >their room. >When Trungpa's guards finally broke in, Merwin cut one guard in the face >with a broken bottle. Trungpa being quite drunk had Merwin's Japanese >girlfriend forcibly dragged down from their room and stripped by his >"guards" before a large crowd. Trungpa came on to her using racial language >to try and separate her from Merwin. There is a pamphlet describing the >affair. > > There is a minor detail concerning the poetry war incident that is worth mentioning. Merwin and his significant other were originally told that they could not attend the retreat because they had applied late. They were outraged at being expected to follow the same rules as everyone else and they raised a stink until an exception was made for them. At least that's what I heard. In case anyone doesn't get it - the implication is that the Merwins were quite eager to witness first hand Trungpa at his craziest - and that's exactly what they got. Like someone who goes out to live with Grizzly bears and then gets eaten. Why blame the bear? People thronged to Trungpa precisely because he put on a good show. The Merwin's found out the hard way the downside of having front row seats at that kind of performance. >I think one should also consider Trungpa's choice of heir and what he taught >or transmitted to him. His heir to the throne, Osel Tendzin, a guy from New >Jersey, took what I assume, Trungpa had transmitted to him, at face value. >Tendzin acted like spoiled entitled royalty complete with servants and >unreasonable demands. Tendzin knew he had AIDS, but continued to have >unprotected sex with both male and female students. I believe at least one >person became infected with AIDS from this. When later questioned about >this, Tendzin replied that he thought the dakinis would protect people. > > > On the other hand there is Pema Chodron - so one could say that Trungpa batted .500 . On the other other hand, one could also look at the whole the Shambhala Sangha as it is today - not exactly chopped liver. Actually, Trungpa turned out to be one of the most, perhaps the most, successful Asian teacher, so far, in terms or establishing a stable ongoing community of Buddhist practitioners in the west. Personally its not to my taste - the word "perky" makes me giggle, and flags and uniforms make me nervous. On the other other other hand there is the Shambhala publishing empire and the Naropa Institute. By their fruits shall you know them. - Curt From michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com Wed Nov 30 19:08:46 2005 From: michaeljameswilson at yahoo.com (Michael J. Wilson) Date: Wed Nov 30 19:13:19 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Re: crazy wisdom In-Reply-To: <200511301544.jAUFie3m016306@ns1.swcp.com> Message-ID: <20051201020846.13371.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have always been fascinated by the "Colophon" to a translation of the White Heruka Long-Life Practice (This is how the sadhana is practiced according to the special teachings of Manjushri to Lama Tsongkhapa): Colophon "This sadhana was complied by Bhikku Ngulchu Dharmabharda, who describes himself as "doing crazy things" according to the teachings of Lama Umapa Pawo Dorje, and of the All-Knower, His Holiness Dalai Lama II, Gendun Gyatso, and of His Holiness Dalai Lama V, Losang Gyatso, and His Holiness Panchen Lama III, Losang Yeshe, and the Very Venerable Losang Tenzing Pal Zampo" Maybe this is a hint, though from centuries in the murky depths long ago, at that "crazy wisdom" so often brandished about. Michael J. Wilson > I have a question for anyone familiar with Tibetan Buddhism. Was > Trungpa's "Crazy Wisdom" dharma his own invention? Clearly one could > look to the Marpa/Milarepa relationship and say, in a vague way, that > there is a precededent for unorthodox teaching methods. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051130/bf8d8093/attachment.htm From dante at interport.net Wed Nov 30 20:38:23 2005 From: dante at interport.net (Dante Rosati) Date: Wed Nov 30 20:43:15 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] update on the next Buddha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4479240.stm From ellwbj at nus.edu.sg Wed Nov 30 20:35:37 2005 From: ellwbj at nus.edu.sg (John Whalen-Bridge) Date: Wed Nov 30 20:43:20 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Crazy wisdom Message-ID: Many, many thanks to Hugo, Erik, Bernie, Piya, Curt, and Michael for varied and interesting wise but not crazy comments. (If anyone was trying for crazy wisdom by typing in the nude while gargling with goldfish, it wasn't clear from your email.) I'll look for the Ed Sanders account but may have a hard time getting it in Singapore. There's always interlibrary loan. The points about Trungpa's successes as well as failures are well taken. As said, one is looking for that middle way between cheerleading and schaden-freude. Neither of those two extremes is useful. One must distinguish between those who may have behaved in all sorts of unskillful ways (in my view) while also achieving a tremendous amount of good, not only in terms of establishing Buddhism as an institution but also in terms of teaching people how to reduce suffering. It would seem from the responses that "crazy wisdom" is not without precedent but that it is, as far as teaching strategies go, a very risky gambit. Thanks again muchly, JWB -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/private/buddha-l/attachments/20051201/e6f704e2/attachment.html From slachs at att.net Wed Nov 30 21:45:53 2005 From: slachs at att.net (Stuart Lachs) Date: Wed Nov 30 21:53:16 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] crazy wisdom References: <002601c5f54f$45173ee0$6601a8c0@nyc.rr.com> <438E54C8.1050500@cola.iges.org> Message-ID: <011301c5f632$1cbd68a0$6601a8c0@nyc.rr.com> Curt wrote: > > > There is a minor detail concerning the poetry war incident that is worth > mentioning. Merwin and his significant other were originally told that > they could not attend the retreat because they had applied late. They > were outraged at being expected to follow the same rules as everyone > else and they raised a stink until an exception was made for them. At > least that's what I heard. In case anyone doesn't get it - the > implication is that the Merwins were quite eager to witness first hand > Trungpa at his craziest - and that's exactly what they got. Like someone > who goes out to live with Grizzly bears and then gets eaten. Why blame > the bear? People thronged to Trungpa precisely because he put on a good > show. The Merwin's found out the hard way the downside of having front > row seats at that kind of performance. I do not recall the above being in the Sanders' version of the "Naropa Poetry Wars," though I read it years ago. I do remember that it gave a pretty complete picture of the affair giving a number of different views along with some follow up. I have a little trouble with "They were outraged at being expected to follow the same rules as everyone else and they raised a stink until an exception was made for them." I believe Merwin was around Zen for some time and was involved with Aitkin's group on Maui. > > >I think one should also consider Trungpa's choice of heir and what he taught > >or transmitted to him. His heir to the throne, Osel Tendzin, a guy from New > >Jersey, took what I assume, Trungpa had transmitted to him, at face value. > >Tendzin acted like spoiled entitled royalty complete with servants and > >unreasonable demands. Tendzin knew he had AIDS, but continued to have > >unprotected sex with both male and female students. I believe at least one > >person became infected with AIDS from this. When later questioned about > >this, Tendzin replied that he thought the dakinis would protect people. > > > > > > > On the other hand there is Pema Chodron - so one could say that Trungpa > batted .500 . On the other other hand, one could also look at the whole > the Shambhala Sangha as it is today - not exactly chopped liver. > Actually, Trungpa turned out to be one of the most, perhaps the most, > successful Asian teacher, so far, in terms or establishing a stable > ongoing community of Buddhist practitioners in the west. Personally its > not to my taste - the word "perky" makes me giggle, and flags and > uniforms make me nervous. I think the discussion started with Trungpa handling alcohol well and displaying "crazy wisdom." Well rapping a car around a telephone pole at high speed, probably dying from cirrhosis of the liver, and picking Osel Tendzin as his main heir among other things seems less than displaying great wisdom. I would guess that the alcohol controlled him more than he admitted. I expect more than "batting .500" from people presenting themselves as enlightened beings supposedly wiser than all others and demanding absolute obediance. Stuart > buddha-l mailing list > buddha-l@mailman.swcp.com > http://mailman.swcp.com/mailman/listinfo/buddha-l From jamesward at earthlink.net Wed Nov 30 23:42:43 2005 From: jamesward at earthlink.net (James Ward) Date: Wed Nov 30 23:43:17 2005 Subject: [Buddha-l] Buddhist Manuscript In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bernie, thanks for posting the link to this article. James Ward On Nov 30, 2005, at 5:34 PM, Bernie Simon wrote: > Interesting. > > A birch bark manuscript from a Buddhist monastery, believed to have > been written in the first or second century A.D., was recently > acquired by the University of Washington Libraries and will become a > key component of the Early Buddhist Manuscripts Project. ... The > manuscript consists of eight fragments of a scroll and is written in > the Gandhari language, a derivative of Sanskrit ... The UW manuscript > comes from a branch of Buddhist scholastic literature known as > abhidharma. ... This text is very exciting, because it is the earliest > commentary that we've found. All other early texts have been > extensively reworked. > > http://www.uwnews.org/article.asp?articleID=3487 > > ---- > One mistake after another is also true practice. > (Dogen) From ralf.steckel at online.ms Wed Nov 30 10:19:32 2005 From: ralf.steckel at online.ms (ralf.steckel@online.ms) Date: Thu Dec 1 06:43:12 2005 Subject: Formal note due to different line breaks (was: Re: [Buddha-l] crazy wisdom) Message-ID: <253386736@web.de> Just a formal note: The asterik symbols in my last message should underline 'tame Americans' and not 'Buddhist teachers' as seen in the posting delivered by the Buddhis discussion forum mailing list. Greetings, Ralf